Skills from other systems that complement wing chun

[kung fu fighter]

Which skills from others systems have you guys found useful to complement your wing chun skills?

[Dragonzbane76]

the atomic nut crusher... works every time or your money back.

[k gledhill]

Which skills from others systems have you guys found useful to complement your wing chun skills?

anything that lets me throw an attack at the guy....I try to keep an open mind to MA in general and absorb all I can. Im not a 'VT or die fighter' by any stretch of the imagination :D

[chusauli]

Don't just be a student of WCK, be a student of martial arts.

Learn striking, kicking, throwing, joint locks, chokes, ground fighting. And also learn projectile, impact and bladed weapons. Explosives are fun, as are modern methods of warfare. Learn the way of strategy.

WCK is a small sliver of martial arts sum total.

[k gledhill]

projectiles...! hah I took up shooting small arms and ended up as an firearms instructor for a short while . VT carries over to practical pistol (9mm 35/357.) competitions ..the grip ...stance steps. facing ...ambidextrous hand use....
many arts translate to shooting...aikido gives 360 firig from a crouch. tai chi relaxed stances , sanchin breathing for stress control...to name a few.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Which skills from others systems have you guys found useful to complement your wing chun skills?

I have black belts in Jiujitsu, but it will not compliment my wing chun. My wing chun can however compliment my jiujitsu as it does offer good entry techniques.
The Lee Chiang Hung Fa Wing Chun system has plenty of holds, throws, and entry technique of it's own. That's right. I am claiming my very own family lineage that I. fully expect to enherit.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I have found the footwork from Silat and Kuntao to be beneficial to my training and approach to WC. There are patterns used in training which can enhance ones mobility. I also find the weapons training to be excellent for hand eye coordination as well.

Also, the concepts and techniques of changing ones level from high to low and in between is of benefit. IMHO

[kung fu fighter]

Don't just be a student of WCK, be a student of martial arts.

Learn striking, kicking, throwing, joint locks, chokes, ground fighting. And also learn projectile, impact and bladed weapons. Explosives are fun, as are modern methods of warfare. Learn the way of strategy.

WCK is a small sliver of martial arts sum total.

I agree Robert, perhaps you can share some of your discoveries of specialized skills in some of the different martial arts that you have studied over the years. As well as how they have influenced your personnal style.

For me, my study in chen style tai chi really helped improved my understanding of alignment and body structure/usage in wing chun. Also I found that the grappling skills of Chen tai chi was a natural extension of my wing chun skills.

My training in muai thai, kyokushin, American kickboxing, and san shou helped with developing my timing and distance awareness as well as conditioning my body to take punishment. which is very useful in the sport arena.

BJJ training helped me to become more familar with the laws/physics of the ground invironment when applying wing chun there.

I really like the takedowns of Penjack silat, but unfortunately I have never studied it formally.

When I study a perticular martial art, I focus on the specialize skill that the style is known for, then I train to become good at the skill. I dont pay too much attention to styles necessarily but more to the core skill training.

It would be interesting to hear about some of the core skills training that you guys have been exposed to during your martial arts career in some of the different styles of martial arts, and how how you guys look at integrating these skills in your wing chun or fighting.

[LoneTiger108]

Which skills from others systems have you guys found useful to complement your wing chun skills?

Dunno about other martial arts, as I've only ever been formerly trained in karate as a child prior to starting Wing Chun. As a foundation, karate was excellent. For me though it's more about how Wing Chun helps to compliment other martial arts as I find most of what I need right here, in my Wing Chun curriculum, and I've yet to find anything else that challenges my capabilities and interests as much as that.

OUTSIDE of martial arts though, a whole range of sports I played as a child must have had an effect on my physical capabilities. From athletics to football and boxing to trampolining, all have helped shaped me into the person I am today. I especially like the team mentality and strategy of football, and as an Englishman if there was one example of something that directly complimented my training it was the team spirit I drew from the field. Especially the 5-a-side game. ;)

[IRONMONK]

How do you guys find the time and money to train in all these martial arts?

[YouKnowWho]

The prey mantis

- 鉤手(Gou Shou) can be integrated into the WC 摊手(Tan Shou) .
- 刁手(Diao Shou) can be integrated into the WC 扶手(Fu Shou).

It can add more hooking into WC's sticky, and that will be a plus IMO.

[Lee Chiang Po]

How do you guys find the time and money to train in all these martial arts?

You can get books off ebay for pretty cheap.

[Lee Chiang Po]

The prey mantis

- 鉤手(Gou Shou) can be integrated into the WC 摊手(Tan Shou) .
- 刁手(Diao Shou) can be integrated into the WC 扶手(Fu Shou).

It can add more hooking into WC's sticky, and that will be a plus IMO.

How would hooking be a plus? I find it real hard to defend center and throw hooks at the same time. Coming out and around takes me too long.
Wing Chun already has the most efficient punch, so why would you want to incorperate probably the least efficient?

[YouKnowWho]

How would hooking be a plus?
You don't need hooking for defense. When you try to reverse your defense into offense (ready to enter), it will be helpful.

A hooking is like a Judo "sleeve hold", it can connect you and your opponent's body together. When you use your hooking to pull, you will either pull your opponent into you, or your will pull yourself into your opponent. Either way the distance between you and your opponent will be reduced. It will also give you the initial momentum for your "fast entering".

For people who may like to integrate the throwing skill into WC, that hooking will be very helpful.


Wing Chun already has the most efficient punch, so why would you want to incorperate probably the least efficient?
鉤手(Gou Shou) and 刁手(Diao Shou) are not punches. IMO, if we care about "cross training", we should keep our mind open.

[SAAMAG]

Which skills from others systems have you guys found useful to complement your wing chun skills?

I've found the opposite to be more true. For example...I've found through pressure testing that although wing chun can be effective as a system, much of what is practiced in wing chun doesn't work against skilled people. Or in other words, much of what is practiced doesn't isn't going to present itself that way in a fight. Take that versus something like Muay Thai, or wrestling, or BJJ, or Sambo, or Kyokushin, Sanshou, or even Krav Maga.....where ALL of what is practiced in the system is effective as trained.

So do you take a system where only 30% of what is taught is proven effective in a fight and compliment it with something where 100% of its teachings are effective? Or vice versa? Logically, the latter would be the better choice.

But to answer your question more succinctly and staying in the mindset suggested above, I've found that wing chun has complimented my Muay Thai game nicely. Muay Thai works all standup ranges, from kicks, to punches, knees, and elbows, clinching, and throwing. Wing Chun as well uses kicks, punches, and elbows, with a smidget of knee techniques. So I've found that the [wing chun] ability to sense and manipulate the structure and enter quickly can help to dissolve standard punches to open a line for attack, and aid in putting me dominant positions for clinch work--or even stop clinchwork. It has seemingly allowed me to take advantage of opportunities missed by my sparring partners that have not trained in wing chun.

So wing chun has complimented my overall game, not vice versa.

[YungChun]

Don't just be a student of WCK, be a student of martial arts.

Learn striking, kicking, throwing, joint locks, chokes, ground fighting. And also learn projectile, impact and bladed weapons. Explosives are fun, as are modern methods of warfare. Learn the way of strategy.

WCK is a small sliver of martial arts sum total.

I think the Marines say "One weapon"......meaning the mind---using all methods..

[YungChun]

anything that lets me throw an attack at the guy....I try to keep an open mind to MA in general and absorb all I can. Im not a 'VT or die fighter' by any stretch of the imagination :D

Have you done ground?

[JPinAZ]

I've found the opposite to be more true. For example...I've found through pressure testing that although wing chun can be effective as a system, much of what is practiced in wing chun doesn't work against skilled people. Or in other words, much of what is practiced doesn't isn't going to present itself that way in a fight. Take that versus something like Muay Thai, or wrestling, or BJJ, or Sambo, or Kyokushin, Sanshou, or even Krav Maga.....where ALL of what is practiced in the system is effective as trained.


I always find it quite suprising when I read something like this. Coming from boxing to WC, my experience has been the exact opposite of yours. From day one, everything I have learned in WC translates directly to fighting, in terms of both effectiveness and efficiency. WC training is about just that - learning how to fight both effectively and efficiently. How does that training not produce results against skilled poeple where other MA's do?
It's a shame you haven't found this in the WC you've trained. :confused:

[kung fu fighter]

How would hooking be a plus? I find it real hard to defend center and throw hooks at the same time. Coming out and around takes me too long.
Wing Chun already has the most efficient punch, so why would you want to incorperate probably the least efficient?

I believe he is speaking about hooking hands similar to kau sao to control and pull, not hook punches. And yes I agree!

[m1k3]

I think the Marines say "One weapon"......meaning the mind---using all methods..

Close, it's "One mind, any weapon". Even though I did boot camp a long time ago one of the things that really stuck with me was weapons of opportunity. Your environment is filled with weapons if you chose to use them from sticks, rocks, that pen in your pocket, a cup of coffee and one demo we saw the instructor blew his nose into his hand and reached for the recruit with it, the recruit reacted with disgust focusing on the handful of snot :eek: when the instructor clocked him with the other hand.

There is no such thing as a fair fight, only fights you win and fights that you don't.

[k gledhill]

Have you done ground?

Yes, did arm bar and chokes as a yellow belt in judo, when I was 10 yrs old ;) when ive had fights that ended up on a nightclub floor or sparring it always worked for me. Funny but the blue belt level of Judo I managed has been adequate ... I also wrestled in school.
I enhanced my ground game from a student of mine who teaches wrestling and studies BJJ ( as a btw, he gave up bjj, to follow stand up fighting more, feeling bjj isnt for real fighting in streets /bars on the ground against multiple scrubs, etc...) thats his informed opinion and he IS a ground fighter,

Other students are air-marshals who have had 'skinny' bjj taught to them in their 'program' and they too dont like the idea of trying to take down a 240lb drunk on a cramped airliner :D btw I did a demo of VT in their mock up jet cabins inside a building near Newark airport, we showed how the system functions without any restrictions in a confined area, using bulkheads to aim for as the 'wall' or exit door for attacking focus points to end up at, seats to immobilize escape from our relentless attacking...The guys watching liked the simultaneous leg trapping as well as the pak to elbow traps....You cant hit as much in any 'response' for obvious legal reasons, think Rodney King !
...they use guns primarily , I was taken to a gun range by one air marshals who is also an ex swat sniper, we used fully suppressed [silenced] HK mp5's [fully automatic machine gun] all you could hear was the slide hitting the metal of the gun, ting, ting, ting, ting, ......meanwhile a paper target 5 m away is instantly torn to shreds...all in relative silence of a confined space. you could be talking with your back turned and wouldnt hear it go off. :D

[SAAMAG]

I always find it quite suprising when I read something like this. Coming from boxing to WC, my experience has been the exact opposite of yours. From day one, everything I have learned in WC translates directly to fighting, in terms of both effectiveness and efficiency. WC training is about just that - learning how to fight both effectively and efficiently. How does that training not produce results against skilled poeple where other MA's do?
It's a shame you haven't found this in the WC you've trained. :confused:

Well that's the thing...realities will differ based on your personal experiences.

How did the common chi sao techniques translate directly against a skilled non wing chun person? How did practicing a 5-step trapping combination translate directly against a skilled non wing chun person? How did even a basic lap sao translate directly to a skilled non wing chun person? How about the practice of pinning the arms and chain punching to oblivian a skilled non wing chun person? How's that working out for you? The training curriculum as well doesn't produce fighters, it produces martial artists. You're not going to be training wing chun in the classical sense and be able to fight for more than 30 seconds (and no, in reality you're not going to end the fight in 30 seconds against a person of equal or greater skill).

I've found that the most simplistic pieces are the most beneficial in fighting, because those are proven the most effective things in fighting. When someone punches, you move, intercept, parry, block, cover, and counter attack. You punch when there's an opening. If there is a block to your attack, you attack another target that was created with the block, or you move the block ever so slightly to continue the attack. Using the straight kicks is effective to a degree, but the idea of kicking and punching (with power) at the same time is garbage.

I would probably say that using punches to counter punches is the best thing I learned from wing chun as far as an offensive/defensive technique. One of the least intelligent things is using gaan sao to counter a low round kick , or using the edge of the forearm against any sort of round kick.

[bennyvt]

I see:
five step trap combo= bad teacher.
chain punching to oblivion = bad teacher.

I have never learn a combo in VT. I have learnt that moves should flow but more like a computer program. If I get this response do "A", if I get this response do "B". there are no sequences of more then one response as this means you have taken the other guy out of the equation. Chi- sao is just to teach these response in a more economical way. Like rolling in grappling. If I am in say side mount, depending where he puts his arm I can do many things depending on what he does. If he is much worse then me I may be able to make him create an opening (by striking, being sloppy on purpose etc)but anyone at your level or above you respond to each action as single actions. You don't go for a takedown to sidemount to key lock combo. But you should be able to string single moves togeather.

[Lee Chiang Po]

You don't need hooking for defense. When you try to reverse your defense into offense (ready to enter), it will be helpful.

A hooking is like a Judo "sleeve hold", it can connect you and your opponent's body together. When you use your hooking to pull, you will either pull your opponent into you, or your will pull yourself into your opponent. Either way the distance between you and your opponent will be reduced. It will also give you the initial momentum for your "fast entering".

For people who may like to integrate the throwing skill into WC, that hooking will be very helpful.


鉤手(Gou Shou) and 刁手(Diao Shou) are not punches. IMO, if we care about "cross training", we should keep our mind open.

I have been traumatised so severly by the mma advocates that when you say hook, I think you are talking about punching. In my own system I do use hooks to jerk and pull an opponent around. Arm locks and throws are also there. Hung Fa is a military combat system and it has all that.

[SAAMAG]

I see:
five step trap combo= bad teacher.
chain punching to oblivion = bad teacher.

I have never learn a combo in VT. I have learnt that moves should flow but more like a computer program. If I get this response do "A", if I get this response do "B". there are no sequences of more then one response as this means you have taken the other guy out of the equation. Chi- sao is just to teach these response in a more economical way. Like rolling in grappling. If I am in say side mount, depending where he puts his arm I can do many things depending on what he does. If he is much worse then me I may be able to make him create an opening (by striking, being sloppy on purpose etc)but anyone at your level or above you respond to each action as single actions. You don't go for a takedown to sidemount to key lock combo. But you should be able to string single moves togeather.

And yet you see it all over the place. That means a majority of the wing chun instructors are "bad". Some of the things I'm talking about are taught by well known teachers and folks that are considered quite high in the wing chun world. I'm not going to name names for the sake that it will do nothing but make people feel their sifu/lineage/etc are being attacked. Long story short...there's a time to continue blaming the teacher, and there's a time to come to realizations and adapt your training accordingly.

Just sounds like excuses and rationalizations at this point. Some things within the system simply need to be dropped, some altered, and some training methods need to be added.

[shawchemical]

And yet you see it all over the place. That means a majority of the wing chun instructors are "bad". Some of the things I'm talking about are taught by well known teachers and folks that are considered quite high in the wing chun world. I'm not going to name names for the sake that it will do nothing but make people feel their sifu/lineage/etc are being attacked. Long story short...there's a time to continue blaming the teacher, and there's a time to come to realizations and adapt your training accordingly.

Just sounds like excuses and rationalizations at this point. Some things within the system simply need to be dropped, some altered, and some training methods need to be added.

NO, that's not what it means at all.

Your first point probably holds, a large proportion of teachers ARE bad. This does not necessarily equate to their own application of the techniques being bad, but just that they may not be very good teachers, and thus they are unable to get critical points across to all of their students. But it could also be that they are just plain bad as well.
You're right about coming to realisations, and the realisation that static he does this I do that drills are not appropriate for the majority of cases except to teach someone the fundamentals of a technique, as in Dan Chi and Double dan chi.

[shawchemical]

Well that's the thing...realities will differ based on your personal experiences.

How did the common chi sao techniques translate directly against a skilled non wing chun person? How did practicing a 5-step trapping combination translate directly against a skilled non wing chun person? How did even a basic lap sao translate directly to a skilled non wing chun person? How about the practice of pinning the arms and chain punching to oblivian a skilled non wing chun person? How's that working out for you? The training curriculum as well doesn't produce fighters, it produces martial artists. You're not going to be training wing chun in the classical sense and be able to fight for more than 30 seconds (and no, in reality you're not going to end the fight in 30 seconds against a person of equal or greater skill).

I've found that the most simplistic pieces are the most beneficial in fighting, because those are proven the most effective things in fighting. When someone punches, you move, intercept, parry, block, cover, and counter attack. You punch when there's an opening. If there is a block to your attack, you attack another target that was created with the block, or you move the block ever so slightly to continue the attack. Using the straight kicks is effective to a degree, but the idea of kicking and punching (with power) at the same time is garbage.

I would probably say that using punches to counter punches is the best thing I learned from wing chun as far as an offensive/defensive technique. One of the least intelligent things is using gaan sao to counter a low round kick , or using the edge of the forearm against any sort of round kick.

Funny that you've identified one of the best and most intelligent things available as something that you think is the worst. Pretty clear you don't understand their use. Then again, the comment is on par with the understanding you demonstrate with the chain punch into oblivion and "5-step trapping" nonsense.

[JPinAZ]

Well that's the thing...realities will differ based on your personal experiences.

How did the common chi sao techniques translate directly against a skilled non wing chun person? How did practicing a 5-step trapping combination translate directly against a skilled non wing chun person? How did even a basic lap sao translate directly to a skilled non wing chun person? How about the practice of pinning the arms and chain punching to oblivian a skilled non wing chun person? How's that working out for you? The training curriculum as well doesn't produce fighters, it produces martial artists.

You're right, experiences obviously vary greatly, because I can't even relate to the things you are talking about. This stuff isn't what WC is to me. For one, I don't understand what you mean by common chi sau techniques. You mean tan bong fook? Chi Sau is a lot more than these 3 techniques, that's just one part of the equation. When you ask 'how's that working out for me', I am probably safe to assume you're not really talking about 'me' again, even if you are replying to me.

Again, I am sorry this is your experience, but you're tight, it's not everyone's. Now I think I can understand why you might have a bad taste in your mouth for WC.


You're not going to be training wing chun in the classical sense and be able to fight for more than 30 seconds (and no, in reality you're not going to end the fight in 30 seconds against a person of equal or greater skill).

Again, I have no idea what you're talking about. What is the 'classical sense' of WC training? It's not what you listed above I hope (?)
As for lasting more than 30 seconds, either you refering to a lack of skill or lack of conditioning. Both can be a product of the training, but it's not a fault of the system itself if it isn't there.


I've found that the most simplistic pieces are the most beneficial in fighting, because those are proven the most effective things in fighting.

You're kinda making some sense now. Simple, effective and I'd add, efficient. That is more what WC is all about to me.


When someone punches, you move, intercept, parry, block, cover, and counter attack. You punch when there's an opening. If there is a block to your attack, you attack another target that was created with the block, or you move the block ever so slightly to continue the attack. Using the straight kicks is effective to a degree, but the idea of kicking and punching (with power) at the same time is garbage.

I would probably say that using punches to counter punches is the best thing I learned from wing chun as far as an offensive/defensive technique. One of the least intelligent things is using gaan sao to counter a low round kick , or using the edge of the forearm against any sort of round kick.

Still having a difficult time understanding/relating to what your'e saying. Now if you really think WC is everything you listed in your very first paragraph of your reply above, then I guess I can see your frustration with being taught to block kicks like this. But again, I understand WC a bit differently.

[Wayfaring]

I always find it quite suprising when I read something like this. Coming from boxing to WC, my experience has been the exact opposite of yours. From day one, everything I have learned in WC translates directly to fighting, in terms of both effectiveness and efficiency. WC training is about just that - learning how to fight both effectively and efficiently. How does that training not produce results against skilled poeple where other MA's do?
It's a shame you haven't found this in the WC you've trained. :confused:

Hey Jonathan,

Do you mind if I ask about coming from boxing to WC? I don't think I know this. When you were boxing, did you take fights there? i.e. do you have an amateur boxing record?

And when you mean translates to fighting, what exactly do you mean by fighting? Are you doing MMA fights now? Or is this talking self defense, bar tactics, etc here?

Sorry - don't mean to sideline the conversation, just trying to understand yours and Vankuen's conversation.

[Wayfaring]

Well that's the thing...realities will differ based on your personal experiences.

How did the common chi sao techniques translate directly against a skilled non wing chun person? How did practicing a 5-step trapping combination translate directly against a skilled non wing chun person? How did even a basic lap sao translate directly to a skilled non wing chun person? How about the practice of pinning the arms and chain punching to oblivian a skilled non wing chun person? How's that working out for you? The training curriculum as well doesn't produce fighters, it produces martial artists. You're not going to be training wing chun in the classical sense and be able to fight for more than 30 seconds (and no, in reality you're not going to end the fight in 30 seconds against a person of equal or greater skill).

I've found that the most simplistic pieces are the most beneficial in fighting, because those are proven the most effective things in fighting. When someone punches, you move, intercept, parry, block, cover, and counter attack. You punch when there's an opening. If there is a block to your attack, you attack another target that was created with the block, or you move the block ever so slightly to continue the attack. Using the straight kicks is effective to a degree, but the idea of kicking and punching (with power) at the same time is garbage.

I would probably say that using punches to counter punches is the best thing I learned from wing chun as far as an offensive/defensive technique. One of the least intelligent things is using gaan sao to counter a low round kick , or using the edge of the forearm against any sort of round kick.

Vankuen,

When you're talking about skilled non-WC people and fighting here, what are you talking about specifically? People who do fights? MT/kickboxing, MMA fights?

And what type of fighting do you do that you're talking about. Again, see my comment above - trying to figure out what exactly we're talking here.

[SAAMAG]

Funny that you've identified one of the best and most intelligent things available as something that you think is the worst. Pretty clear you don't understand their use. Then again, the comment is on par with the understanding you demonstrate with the chain punch into oblivion and "5-step trapping" nonsense.

If you're talking about the gaan sao against the kick...and you advocate that...then you've obviously never tried to block a real kick. Otherwise your arm would be broken. Just try it--have a guy throw a nice round kick with some heat on it and you block it directly with your forearm. You'll notice (1) a little discomfort and (2) feedback into your whole arm. If the kick is full force--you'll notice (1) swelling (2) bruises, (3) broken bone.

It's common knowledge amongst just about any full contact fighting form to NOT block a round kick with the lower forearm.

[SAAMAG]

You're right, experiences obviously vary greatly, because I can't even relate to the things you are talking about. This stuff isn't what WC is to me. For one, I don't understand what you mean by common chi sau techniques. You mean tan bong fook? Chi Sau is a lot more than these 3 techniques, that's just one part of the equation. When you ask 'how's that working out for me', I am probably safe to assume you're not really talking about 'me' again, even if you are replying to me.

Again, I am sorry this is your experience, but you're tight, it's not everyone's. Now I think I can understand why you might have a bad taste in your mouth for WC.



Again, I have no idea what you're talking about. What is the 'classical sense' of WC training? It's not what you listed above I hope (?)
As for lasting more than 30 seconds, either you refering to a lack of skill or lack of conditioning. Both can be a product of the training, but it's not a fault of the system itself if it isn't there.



You're kinda making some sense now. Simple, effective and I'd add, efficient. That is more what WC is all about to me.



Still having a difficult time understanding/relating to what your'e saying. Now if you really think WC is everything you listed in your very first paragraph of your reply above, then I guess I can see your frustration with being taught to block kicks like this. But again, I understand WC a bit differently.


Vankuen,

When you're talking about skilled non-WC people and fighting here, what are you talking about specifically? People who do fights? MT/kickboxing, MMA fights?

And what type of fighting do you do that you're talking about. Again, see my comment above - trying to figure out what exactly we're talking here.

I'll try to elaborate a bit guys.

First, I enjoy training wing chun, I don't have a bad taste in my mouth for the system as a whole, I have a bad taste in my mouth for the organization, lack of true fighting knowledge in the teachers and/or lack of care in the realism of what they teach, and lack of proven curriculum.

The stuff I'm talking about isn't necessarily the way I was taught, but the way the general public is taught. The reason I have a concern about it, is because it's turning the wing chun general populace into a non-fighting, delusional bunch who get laughed at by everyone else who fights.

Common wing chun scenarios that you see in Chi sao would be for example the bong, lap, wang jeung flow. Very common, but lacking in power or realism against those that are non wing chun types. Lap sao in general, unless done at the very onset of the fight against a slow puncher, isn't going to work at all. You'll never pull it off on a boxer or someone who punches quickly, and you'll never be able to pull it off on someone who is sweaty. The chop, I've yet to see anyone do it in such a way where damage would actually result from it. It's all arm and contains zero power. Anyone trying this would get run through by any remotely athletic person. Though practicing nicely in an air conditioned kwoon at a nice relaxed pace will always product a good (and unrealistic) result of the technique. Do you see what I'm getting at there?

Another example would be like something where the teacher shows that a person punches a straight punch, then defender will pak, lap/grap the wrist, step out press down, then rotate the wrist counter clockwise, press the elbow, and then kick the leg. This is a joint lock which in theory COULD work, but has proven to be useless in standup fighting against skilled folks. It takes too long, it's unrealistic, it's not efficient, and it's not going to work against someone with a big muscular arm who's fighting back. This one in particular is taught by a very well known instructor who is known from a wing chun "fighting" line.

The 30 second thing IS fault of the systems curriculum...yes it's conditioning...but conditioning shouldn't be separate from the training system. It should be inherent. This is proven through those that fight consistently. If wing chun is to be taken seriously, it needs to incorporate those things that will produce good fighters. Right now the classical curriculum doesn't do this...only certain individual teachers. It used to be part of all gung fu systems from what I understand...so what happened??

So while I don't think that wing chun is everything I've mentioned, those are some of the areas that need to be "fixed". I wouldn't practice wing chun at all if I thought it was useless--far from it. However it needs another overhaul for sure.

OH and Wayfaring,

I'm talking about anyone that practices a full contact fighting art, be it Karate, Sanda, Muay Thai, Wrestling, Boxing, Sambo, MMA, and etc.

What type of fighting do I do? My standup today consists mainly of wing chun, muay thai, Sanda, and some remnants of the TKD, Karate, and Gung fu.

[LoneTiger108]

If you're talking about the gaan sao against the kick...and you advocate that...then you've obviously never tried to block a real kick. Otherwise your arm would be broken...

... It's common knowledge amongst just about any full contact fighting form to NOT block a round kick with the lower forearm.

I agree that blocking with the forearm as you describe would be insufficient, and painfull, if you are kicked by a 'kicker'.

Thing is, and I have trialed this one, ask a real kicker to kick you after you have drilled said forearms through the wooden man. Different result. Now instead of making contact with your new-found hardwood gaan sau arms, make contact with your gaan sau 'peaks' ie point of elbow!

What I've found is the kicker can't kick anymore and my arms are just fine. My point is (sic) don't pigeon hole your/my/our Wing Chun from using your own poor experiences, especially if you know you have learnt cr4p! ;) Or see others learning cr4p for that matter!


The stuff I'm talking about isn't necessarily the way I was taught, but the way the general public is taught. The reason I have a concern about it, is because it's turning the wing chun general populace into a non-fighting, delusional bunch who get laughed at by everyone else who fights.

If you have seen distinct differences to an open/closed door teaching method you would know that gaan sau against kickers works just fine indeed! :D Now of course, as a beginner don't try such stupid things, or you're arms will get broken!! ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

You guys must know some pretty pussified kickers !
LOL !

[goju]

if the person kicks hard no way. ive shin kicked the thai pads hard enough to make them slap my pad holder in their face lol so a forearm isnt going to work

if hes a horrible kicker then yes ive met some sparring partners throw kicks that you could just slap down with your palm


however the best way to counter a kick is to intercept it or get the hell out of the way gents!:p

[m1k3]

Different result. Now instead of making contact with your new-found hardwood gaan sau arms, make contact with your gaan sau 'peaks' ie point of elbow!



LoneTiger, could you explain to me how you would block a kick with your elbow. :confused: I just can't picture the technique. Thanks.

[SAAMAG]

Here's one of those conversations that separates those that fight from those that don't.

Just because you bang your arms on a MYJ, doesn't mean that you're all of a sudden going to be able to withstand power kicks. You obviously have never had someone kick you full force contacting with the shin. Even if you take the force on the upper forearm right next to the elbow, it still penetrates and isn't advisable when doing it in a gaan sao motion. The force of a hard kick can snap your arm at the elbow quite easily doing that.

You can counter kicks with the elbows and that is effective, but you should do it against mid and high kicks where you're doing more of a chum jang movement. Remember the shin is far bigger and more dense than any part of your forearm, MYJ training or not.

On a side note though, I was always taught that MYJ wasn't for conditioning the exterior but to cultivate the internal / soft power...meaning no banging and always projecting energy to the center of the dummy and not directly against the arms.

[Wayfaring]

OH and Wayfaring,

I'm talking about anyone that practices a full contact fighting art, be it Karate, Sanda, Muay Thai, Wrestling, Boxing, Sambo, MMA, and etc.

What type of fighting do I do? My standup today consists mainly of wing chun, muay thai, Sanda, and some remnants of the TKD, Karate, and Gung fu.

So from this what I'm getting is that what you are referring to as fighting is mostly a controlled sparring environment with pads? At least what you experience on a consistent basis, right? Your standup is with a timer and rounds so that it incorporates conditioning?

Some of the arts you listed have practitioners that refer to what they do as a fight, others do not. For example, most wrestlers refer to their competitive events as "matches" instead of "fights".

[Wayfaring]

If you're talking about the gaan sao against the kick...and you advocate that...then you've obviously never tried to block a real kick. Otherwise your arm would be broken.

IMO I would say wrong tool wrong timeframe. kwan sao is closer to what you're looking for but again its more specific to the turning of an energy from a specific radius. Just IMO.

[Eric_H]

I've found a lot of good luck in training Muay Thai and Bagua along side my WC. MT has awesome kicks, and is also disciplined about keeping a good upright centerline. Bagua has some good internal training, and handles the 4 basic categories of fighting (punching/kicking/grabbing/throwing) more evenly than WC does IMO.

Overall though, I haven't found holes in the science/logic/structure behind Hung Fa Yi WC yet, only my own game and in the partners I train with. No matter what systems, go after good coaches and good partners who will make you better.

My 2 cents.

[SAAMAG]

So from this what I'm getting is that what you are referring to as fighting is mostly a controlled sparring environment with pads? At least what you experience on a consistent basis, right? Your standup is with a timer and rounds so that it incorporates conditioning?

Some of the arts you listed have practitioners that refer to what they do as a fight, others do not. For example, most wrestlers refer to their competitive events as "matches" instead of "fights".

You can do it without protective gear and rounds if you want...you could use various levels of "control" as well. The point is that it is full contact or a variant of it. That's how you find the holes in any system.

That's why I know that gaan sao against a hard round kick doesn't work, even kwan sao (though better than the gaan) isn't advisable because a faster and more efficient movement is simply to move your feet to move away from the kick, with covering or checking as more common measures because of the speed of the kick.

But I do understand that you have to do what you have to do. Things happen so quickly that you may only be in a position for kwan sao, or trying to absorb it in some fashion...though again...teaching a gaan sao against a kick just isn't ethical.

[Sihing73]

LoneTiger, could you explain to me how you would block a kick with your elbow. :confused: I just can't picture the technique. Thanks.

Hello,

Not from Wing Chun but from Silat they have a concept called the Elbow Shield. Essentially, they bend the body low and place the elbow near the hip. The idea is to present a smaller target and to put the bony part of the elbow in the path of a kick. Not so much blocking, but more like laying the elbow in the potential path.

I am sure my explanation is not doing justice to the concept but perhaps it will stimulate some thought and ideas for workable methods.

Also, when I learned Wing Chun it was stressed to block legs using legs not trying to use hands unless absolutely necessary. Also, if timing is right then stepping into any attack, leg or hands can be of benefit.

[SAAMAG]

Hello,

Not from Wing Chun but from Silat they have a concept called the Elbow Shield. Essentially, they bend the body low and place the elbow near the hip. The idea is to present a smaller target and to put the bony part of the elbow in the path of a kick. Not so much blocking, but more like laying the elbow in the potential path.

I am sure my explanation is not doing justice to the concept but perhaps it will stimulate some thought and ideas for workable methods.

Also, when I learned Wing Chun it was stressed to block legs using legs not trying to use hands unless absolutely necessary. Also, if timing is right then stepping into any attack, leg or hands can be of benefit.

That would be the intelligent thing to do! :p

[Wayfaring]

Overall though, I haven't found holes in the science/logic/structure behind Hung Fa Yi WC yet, only in the partners I train with. No matter what systems, go after good coaches and good partners who will make you better.

My 2 cents.

Good advice.

[Sihing73]

That would be the intelligent thing to do! :p

Very few have ever accused me of being "intelligent: ;)

[YungChun]

a faster and more efficient movement is simply to move your feet to move away from the kick, with covering or checking as more common measures because of the speed of the kick.

But I do understand that you have to do what you have to do. Things happen so quickly that you may only be in a position for kwan sao, or trying to absorb it in some fashion...though again...teaching a gaan sao against a kick just isn't ethical.
Chun prefers to use legs against legs, at least some Chun.. However, using a gongsao or whatever with a kick can work just fine, it depends, and the *given* is the use of movement and position and offensive energy issuing along with whatever the hands/arms are doing--no you don't try to absorb the full force of a kick with a hand/arm..:rolleyes:

As far as lopsao (or whatever move) goes the whole point of lop is dependent on a particular kind of inside resistance--if they don't give you that energy and position then a classic lop won't happen...

[shawchemical]

If you're talking about the gaan sao against the kick...and you advocate that...then you've obviously never tried to block a real kick. Otherwise your arm would be broken. Just try it--have a guy throw a nice round kick with some heat on it and you block it directly with your forearm. You'll notice (1) a little discomfort and (2) feedback into your whole arm. If the kick is full force--you'll notice (1) swelling (2) bruises, (3) broken bone.

It's common knowledge amongst just about any full contact fighting form to NOT block a round kick with the lower forearm.

Thats just the thing, the gaan shouldn't clash with the kick. If it does, you're doing it wrong.

But the fact you think it should clash with it clearly signifies what you're doing wrong. Keep thinking that you should check a kick with your shin rather than go forward with the foot, keep thinking that because you train like **** everyone else does.

Fool.

[goju]

So how exactly should it be done if it doesnt clash with the kick? your supposed to hold the arm out like a limp noodle and expect it to stop a full force round house?


keep thinking that because you train like **** everyone else does

you mean the easiest and most proven way? yes how silly of him:rolleyes:

[anerlich]

Shin against the forearm? Shin's bigger harder heavier and tougher. My money's on the shin.

Harder the forearms on the dummy? Harden the shins on the bags. Shin's bigger harder heavier and tougher. My money's still on the shin.

Either skip out of the way or rush in and jam the kick .. with something.


Essentially, they bend the body low and place the elbow near the hip.

Good advice, but hardly unique to silat. And nothing like the "dummy-toughened" garn you advocate.

And only T's dreaded theoretical non fighters never get nailed with the occasional kick.

[shawchemical]

So how exactly should it be done if it doesnt clash with the kick? your supposed to hold the arm out like a limp noodle and expect it to stop a full force round house?



you mean the easiest and most proven way? yes how silly of him:rolleyes:

Fu/ck off moron.

It shouldn't clash with it, but that is hardly equal to just holding it out there limply.

And it shouldn't be on the shin, it should be on the thigh, above the knee.

[SAAMAG]

How cute. Shaw likes to act like a tough guy on the internet.

If you're close enough to use your gaan sao on the thigh, then you needn't worry about the kick at all because you're close enough to hit them already. Hence the idea of stepping into the kick as some more intelligent people than you have said.

[SAAMAG]

Thats just the thing, the gaan shouldn't clash with the kick. If it does, you're doing it wrong.

But the fact you think it should clash with it clearly signifies what you're doing wrong. Keep thinking that you should check a kick with your shin rather than go forward with the foot, keep thinking that because you train like **** everyone else does.

Fool.

Dee dee dee! Did you type all that while wearing your rainbow hat and eating a bucket of friend chicken?

I never said I think it should clash, I'm saying it's taught that way by most "sifu's".

The first thing is to move, be it away from the kick to catch, or into the kick to intercept or clinch. The most common however is to check it because the speed of the kick. When I do check, I check hard round kicks with my knee's, not my shins where possible. If I check with the shin it's the upper shin.

Not to mention I believe that's already been said to move into the kick, more than once...so your babbling is futile.

[shawchemical]

How cute. Shaw likes to act like a tough guy on the internet.

If you're close enough to use your gaan sao on the thigh, then you needn't worry about the kick at all because you're close enough to hit them already. Hence the idea of stepping into the kick as some more intelligent people than you have said.

The same Idea as the kwan sau, the bong sau gets you most fo the way there, and the taan sau is the secondary, here the footwork gets you most of the way there, but the gaan sau is the secodnary. Just in case you hadn't noticed, knees in the floating ribs hurt. Stepping in will avoid most of the force of a hard kick, but not all.

Nothing to do with being a tough guy, IF anyone, Goju the incompetent is the one picking the fight.

[goju]

Fu/ck off moron.

It shouldn't clash with it, but that is hardly equal to just holding it out there limply.

And it shouldn't be on the shin, it should be on the thigh, above the knee.

your either clashing it by meeting force with force or blocking it by redirecting it. theres no other way to block an attack
:rolleyes:

and how was i picking a fight? im merely asking a question and you responded by acting like an ass

[shawchemical]

Dee dee dee! Did you type all that while wearing your rainbow hat and eating a bucket of friend chicken?

I never said I think it should clash, I'm saying it's taught that way by most "sifu's".

The first thing is to move, be it away from the kick to catch, or into the kick to intercept or clinch. The most common however is to check it because the speed of the kick. When I do check, I check hard round kicks with my knee's, not my shins where possible. If I check with the shin it's the upper shin.

Not to mention I believe that's already been said to move into the kick, more than once...so your babbling is futile.

You shoudln't use the shin, you should intercept with the foot.

This bullsh/it you roll out about how most sifu's do it just makes you look the fool. Why bother with how other people do it if it's wrong? If it's wrong, you dont' need to refer to it, just refer to how it's done right.

There's no babbling halfwit, you just have to get your own point straight before you start criticising others.

[shawchemical]

your either clashing it by meeting force with force or blocking it by redirecting it. theres no other way to block an attack
:rolleyes:

and how was i picking a fight? im merely asking a question and you responded by acting like an ass

Fu/ck off mullet man.

[goju]

Fu/ck off mullet man.

or what? you will hurl more witless insults my way? oh how i must flee!:rolleyes:

[m1k3]

Shaw, let me get this straight. You're supposed to place you forearm on his thigh and avoid limpness? :confused:

Pictures please.

[Sihing73]

Good advice, but hardly unique to silat. And nothing like the "dummy-toughened" garn you advocate.

Hey, no fair!!

Since when did I advocate using the dummy to toughen any body part :confused:

I am a more softer, sensitive soul. :D

[anerlich]

Hey, no fair!!

Since when did I advocate using the dummy to toughen any body part

I am a more softer, sensitive soul.


Sorry Dave, Mik3 asked a question of Lone Tiger to which you responded. Case of mistaken identity. Lone Tiger claimed dummy conditioning would toughen the arms to the extent they could handle a kick. Pity the shins can also be toughened.

[anerlich]

Shaw, let me get this straight. You're supposed to place you forearm on his thigh and avoid limpness?


Against a roundhouse, if you can stop the knee, then that will stop the shin coming around. Pak or tan the knee and tan ready in case you need to stop the shin as well. Like everything else, easier said than done.

Not sure if that is what Shaw meant, no doubt he'll shower me with scorn and insults like he did everyone else with the temerity to disagree if not. He can't have many friends.

[Sihing73]

Sorry Dave, Mik3 asked a question of Lone Tiger to which you responded. Case of mistaken identity. Lone Tiger claimed dummy conditioning would toughen the arms to the extent they could handle a kick. Pity the shins can also be toughened.

No worries :D

I do no conditioning, other than drink soda, ice tea and chips. I am just too stupid or stubborn to quit. Ahhh but I do feel it afterwards :o

The dummy is not for conditioning, imho, it is for refinement of position. I think that if one tries to use the dummy to toughen up the body then one has missed the mark. I'd rather go hit a tree, gets me closer to nature, pl;us it's fun to see the looks on tree huggers faces when you are beating on and yelling at a young sapling, When they complain I offer to let them take the trees place :eek:

Just kidding, I really don't hit trees, just tree huggers ;)

[Wayfaring]

Just kidding, I really don't hit trees, just tree huggers ;)

But would you hit this?

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1118/1054238545_4a792689b5_m.jpg

:D:D:D

[Sihing73]

But would you hit this?

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1118/1054238545_4a792689b5_m.jpg

:D:D:D

Let's just say that I would work on my penetratimg technique :p:D:eek:

But I never seem to come across anything like this in the woods. :(

I seem to run across the ones that look like Phil :eek:

[SoCo KungFu]

But would you hit this?

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1118/1054238545_4a792689b5_m.jpg

:D:D:D

She's gonna have some mad splinters. I hope nothing gets infected....

[SAAMAG]

Dude that can't be real...someone actually would just literally hug a tree all nekkid?

[SAAMAG]

You shoudln't use the shin, you should intercept with the foot.

This bullsh/it you roll out about how most sifu's do it just makes you look the fool. Why bother with how other people do it if it's wrong? If it's wrong, you dont' need to refer to it, just refer to how it's done right.

There's no babbling halfwit, you just have to get your own point straight before you start criticising others.

Well shoulda woulda coulda. That's another option, yes. In muay thai that's a teep. In wing chun a jing gurk or moreso a jeet gurk. Also a good method and much better than your gaan sao that doesn't class against a kick yet after backpeddling your argument still has to clash with a thigh...which is still force against force.

And ahhh yes. Me talking about the effectiveness or lack thereof with the general wing chun we see relative to it's relationship to other systems does indeed make me look the fool over your barrage of foolishness. I'm sure that's how people see this going.

At least I'm able to get my point across without acting like a child. Though I do like patronizing internet kids with helmets and fried chicken buckets.

[SAAMAG]

Lets not let the thread get too off track folks....sorry I stirred up the pot. That's just an opinion.

So in an effort to get the thread back on track for the OP...how about you other cross training, knucklehead kickboxer types? How do you see wing chun relative to the other tools in your toolbox?

[LoneTiger108]

Here's one of those conversations that separates those that fight from those that don't.

Here's another one of those comments that lacks any real want to learn or discuss variances to what you have been told.


Just because you bang your arms on a MYJ, doesn't mean that you're all of a sudden going to be able to withstand power kicks. You obviously have never had someone kick you full force contacting with the shin.

No I'm just guessing dude! :rolleyes: Again it proves that we have a different approach to equipment training. I DID say this is something I have 'trialed'. Take my word, I know a good kicker when I meet them, and I'm not so bad either! Some old friends learnt from Toddy himself (you should know that name I think) They all said the same to me. I just felt 'sharp' and they wouldn't try to kick again.


On a side note though, I was always taught that MYJ wasn't for conditioning the exterior but to cultivate the internal / soft power...meaning no banging and always projecting energy to the center of the dummy and not directly against the arms.

Another of our differences. Although I too was taught the same (at the beginning) if you think that you can not drill ANY part of the body on wood you are heavily mistaken. I'm not just referring to a form here, I train a little differently than that.


LoneTiger, could you explain to me how you would block a kick with your elbow. I just can't picture the technique. Thanks.

Actually, someone has already mentioned the type of subtleties I'm talking about. Thanks Dave! Another reason I loved the convos on Silat!


Not from Wing Chun but from Silat they have a concept called the Elbow Shield. Essentially, they bend the body low and place the elbow near the hip. The idea is to present a smaller target and to put the bony part of the elbow in the path of a kick. Not so much blocking, but more like laying the elbow in the potential path.

This eldow near the hip is a reflection of the lower hand in gaan sau. The upper hand can 'chum jaang', as someone else has said, onto the knee or inner thigh while this lower elbow protects the kidney and connects with the shin or instep. Of course, coming from Lee Shing family, the upper hand can also gwar kuen the kicking leg but I prefer the use of elbows. Remember we're standing ground or moving in not back.

Someone has also mentioned quan sau against kicks, which for me is a preferred method IF you haven't drilled so much. Now if the kicks LOW then I advocate using the leg/single leg stance to take it. Unless you've trained gwai ma or chaw ma combinations of course! ;)

[SAAMAG]

Here's another one of those comments that lacks any real want to learn or discuss variances to what you have been told.
Not at all. This absolutely distinguishes who fights or not and the caliber of their full contact knowledge. EVERY SINGLE person that I've known in my life that fought full contact, knows what I say to be true. You don't use the lower part of the forearm to block full power round kicks. Period. Unless your radial and ulnar bones have somehow become stronger than a tibia bone, it's not going to happen. If you say you do it all the time in fighting...then that makes one question whether you fight and/or whether your technique has been truly tested against someone who is truly trying to hurt you with their kick. It's not meant as an insult...its just a fact.




No I'm just guessing dude! :rolleyes: Again it proves that we have a different approach to equipment training. I DID say this is something I have 'trialed'. Take my word, I know a good kicker when I meet them, and I'm not so bad either! Some old friends learnt from Toddy himself (you should know that name I think) They all said the same to me. I just felt 'sharp' and they wouldn't try to kick again.
EVERY FIGHTER I've come across in my lifetime while humble, wouldn't ever say that. Why? Because kicking with the shin hurts regardless. When you bang it on a knee...you think that's not doing damage? You think it doesn't hurt them? It does--but FIGHTERS keep banging away until the opponent is done. Yes, strategies might change because the other guy is blocking all the kicks, but they don't stop because "it's sharp".



Another of our differences. Although I too was taught the same (at the beginning) if you think that you can not drill ANY part of the body on wood you are heavily mistaken. I'm not just referring to a form here, I train a little differently than that.

See...everyone's got something different to say. One person says the internal dummy is the "closed door" secret training or advanced training after one learns the physical stuff. Now it's the beginner's stuff? :rolleyes: Perhaps HW108 is right in that 99% of gung fu places are mcdojo's because no one can seem to get their stories straight.

FWIW I bang on the dummy for the ****s n giggles as well. Though outside of the fact that wolff's law has a limited effect in adults (meaning your radial bone will never = your tibia), what you're proposing isn't possible without severe effects on your forearm. Are you using a gaan sao motion contacting with the lower forearm against the tibia of a full-on round kick?

Because I'm starting to think that people are misunderstanding each other here....

[chusauli]

Although I'd never use it against a Muay Thai Round Kick, there is a variation of double arm Gaun/Jaam Sao which I believe Spencer is describing, which keeps the elbow in tighter - where the upper Jaam Sao is a more horizontal sweep across the body rather than the conventional diagonally downward Jaam Sao.

Personally, I'd rather use our stomping kicks against the supporting leg, knee, inguinal crease, or attacking kick. (That's a good drill to spar with regularly...) But if your timing isn't there against a fast and powerful kicker, you will be getting blasted or put down. Part of moving in will disperse some force, then you have to deal with punches and elbows.

[SAAMAG]

Although I'd never use it against a Muay Thai Round Kick, there is a variation of double arm Gaun/Jaam Sao which I believe Spencer is describing, which keeps the elbow in tighter - where the upper Jaam Sao is a more horizontal sweep across the body rather than the conventional diagonally downward Jaam Sao.

Personally, I'd rather use our stomping kicks against the supporting leg, knee, inguinal crease, or attacking kick. (That's a good drill to spar with regularly...) But if your timing isn't there against a fast and powerful kicker, you will be getting blasted or put down. Part of moving in will disperse some force, then you have to deal with punches and elbows.

Exactly. If you're so close that you are in the space of the thigh, then you're not going to be worrying about the kick but the punches, elbows, and clinch. Kicking the supporting leg is a common technique both in wing chun and in muay thai. When last I sparred with one of my partners one of the things I did often whenever I saw him lift his leg was kick his kicking leg on the inside before he turned it over for the kick, or I kicked his lower abs/hips, or I kicked his supporting leg. I didn't do too many shin blocks with him because his shins aren't conditioned at all yet.

Now the jaam-gaan sao technique creates that "wall" for the upper body so to speak, but doesn't fix the problem of trying to use the lower forearm against a full on round kick where contact is the tibia. Just because it's close to the body doesn't mean it's not susceptible to the same forces. There are guys that cover a head kick but because the kick landed on the edge of the forearm the bone still broke--note the Shamrock / Le fight. Shamrock's lower forearm broke because he caught a kick in the wrong part of his arm over and again. There are several instances in Thai fights as well where guys LEGS were broken from the same kick...and that's tibia to tibia as opposed to tibia to radial.

Just not a smart thing to do. Period.

[t_niehoff]

Although I'd never use it against a Muay Thai Round Kick, there is a variation of double arm Gaun/Jaam Sao which I believe Spencer is describing, which keeps the elbow in tighter - where the upper Jaam Sao is a more horizontal sweep across the body rather than the conventional diagonally downward Jaam Sao.


And that won't work.



Personally, I'd rather use our stomping kicks against the supporting leg, knee, inguinal crease, or attacking kick. (That's a good drill to spar with regularly...) But if your timing isn't there against a fast and powerful kicker, you will be getting blasted or put down. Part of moving in will disperse some force, then you have to deal with punches and elbows.

WCK isn't kickboxing and doesn't have the tools to deal with kickboxing.

[LoneTiger108]

... Not at all. You don't use the lower part of the forearm to block full power round kicks. Period. Unless your radial and ulnar bones have somehow become stronger than a tibia bone, it's not going to happen.

I don't think I've said that I'd use my lower forearm, it's my elbows I'm talking of. More importantly the 'peak' of my elbows.


... See...everyone's got something different to say. One person says the internal dummy is the "closed door" secret training or advanced training after one learns the physical stuff. Now it's the beginner's stuff? :rolleyes: Perhaps HW108 is right in that 99% of gung fu places are mcdojo's because no one can seem to get their stories straight.

I'm not talking about with the internal stuffs as people talk too much sh1t when it comes to hei (chi/qi), I'm talking of the very external-type drilling that the wooden man provides the advanced practitioner. To be fair, it doesn't sound like you have ever met anyone who has done this. Maybe you have yet to meet a practitioner of this level? This would be a shame imo.


... Are you using a gaan sao motion contacting with the lower forearm against the tibia of a full-on round kick?

Yes I'm using the gaan sau posture. No I'm not using the lower forearms. As I've said, elbows elbows elbows!!! ;)


Although I'd never use it against a Muay Thai Round Kick, there is a variation of double arm Gaun/Jaam Sao which I believe Spencer is describing, which keeps the elbow in tighter - where the upper Jaam Sao is a more horizontal sweep across the body rather than the conventional diagonally downward Jaam Sao.

Thanks for trying to help the exlpanation Robert. Funny thing is that when you look at the muay thai partner who is holding the pads for his kicking friend, he is also using the gaan sau posture a lot! ;) I'm not saying it's the best, or only way either, but it works well for people who have trained well.

Basically, if you can't make one of the most famous of all Wing Chun postures work against a measly kick then you aint been doing the chun enuff my friends...:o

[t_niehoff]

http://www.casttv.com/shows/penn-teller-bull****/martial-arts/asrh05

[LoneTiger108]

http://www.casttv.com/shows/penn-teller-bull****/martial-arts/asrh05

Can't sit through half hour of that to see your point T!? Just throw it out here as you always do!! IN WRITING!!

[t_niehoff]

Can't sit through half hour of that to see your point T!? Just throw it out here as you always do!! IN WRITING!!

OK.

Bullsh1t.

[SAAMAG]

I don't think I've said that I'd use my lower forearm, it's my elbows I'm talking of. More importantly the 'peak' of my elbows.
Ah that's right. It was the other guy who backpeddled and said that he uses it on the thigh. I remember now.

Your's was with the elbow where I said you can't take it on the elbow (unless your arm is bent close to 90 deg) full on because if your arm was close to straight it would probably damage the joint....case in point...see below where I respond to your thai pad holding scenario.




I'm not talking about with the internal stuffs as people talk too much sh1t when it comes to hei (chi/qi), I'm talking of the very external-type drilling that the wooden man provides the advanced practitioner. To be fair, it doesn't sound like you have ever met anyone who has done this. Maybe you have yet to meet a practitioner of this level? This would be a shame imo.

I think the external type drilling would benefit ANY type practitioner. Too much of the word "advanced" going around which has nothing to do with the benefits of hitting a hard object to gradually build up resilience. To that end I've met tons of folks that can bang on a dummy. What's your version of advanced banging though?



Yes I'm using the gaan sau posture. No I'm not using the lower forearms. As I've said, elbows elbows elbows!!! ;)

...

Thanks for trying to help the exlpanation Robert. Funny thing is that when you look at the muay thai partner who is holding the pads for his kicking friend, he is also using the gaan sau posture a lot! ;) I'm not saying it's the best, or only way either, but it works well for people who have trained well.

Basically, if you can't make one of the most famous of all Wing Chun postures work against a measly kick then you aint been doing the chun enuff my friends...:o

The elbows elbows elbows do work, but as I explained before, even doing that with a gaan sao posture is likely to injure your arm and joint if taking the full force of a kick. Now if you use the elbow to counter the kick, it's quite effective--but you must do it with a bend arm using more of a chum jang movement for a mid level round kick or a cover elbow to a high kick. The low kicks or low-mid kicks shouldn't be done this way. That's what your knee is for.

And the thai pad holders don't use a gaan sao movement to block low kicks, they're holding the pad down low for a lighter kick. Try holding the pad and letting someone kick it. Hold it first with your arm straight, tell me how that makes your elbow joint feel as the power is progressively ramped up. Then try it with your arm bent at 90 degrees (where you'll have to squat down a bit). Alot easier isn't it? There's a reason for that. Because a straight arm sweeping motion against a hard kick hurts--it hurts on the wrist, the radial/ulnar bone, and the joint because those bones and joints aren't strong enough to support the absorption of a full on round kick with the shin. With the arm bent, you now have a better structure to use the elbow against the kick, though it's still an inferior bone when compared to the strength of the tibia.

Just try it. You'll see what I'm talking about then.

[Wayfaring]

Good MT kicks - the key here is distance. You don't want to be in the space where their power house is. You have to either move away to make it miss or move inside of it and jam it with something. That something can be a check of some kind, attacking the root leg, beat the kick with a teep to the kicking hip, or you can get away with some WC movements. If you're inside the radius of the kick you can punch and elbow too.

If you're in the power house radius, it's not going to be pretty with a good kicker. Even covering up sometimes bones get broken. Low kicks checked by a leg hurt too.

The key again to repeat one more time is distance. Don't get caught in no-man's land by a good kicker. If you do, you suffer the consequences. Sometimes not getting caught there is easier said than done, but that's why it's a fight.

[SAAMAG]

Good MT kicks - the key here is distance. You don't want to be in the space where their power house is. You have to either move away to make it miss or move inside of it and jam it with something. That something can be a check of some kind, attacking the root leg, beat the kick with a teep to the kicking hip, or you can get away with some WC movements. If you're inside the radius of the kick you can punch and elbow too.

If you're in the power house radius, it's not going to be pretty with a good kicker. Even covering up sometimes bones get broken. Low kicks checked by a leg hurt too.

The key again to repeat one more time is distance. Don't get caught in no-man's land by a good kicker. If you do, you suffer the consequences. Sometimes not getting caught there is easier said than done, but that's why it's a fight.

That about sums it up.

[chusauli]

I don't think I've said that I'd use my lower forearm, it's my elbows I'm talking of. More importantly the 'peak' of my elbows.



I'm not talking about with the internal stuffs as people talk too much sh1t when it comes to hei (chi/qi), I'm talking of the very external-type drilling that the wooden man provides the advanced practitioner. To be fair, it doesn't sound like you have ever met anyone who has done this. Maybe you have yet to meet a practitioner of this level? This would be a shame imo.



Yes I'm using the gaan sau posture. No I'm not using the lower forearms. As I've said, elbows elbows elbows!!! ;)



Thanks for trying to help the exlpanation Robert. Funny thing is that when you look at the muay thai partner who is holding the pads for his kicking friend, he is also using the gaan sau posture a lot! ;) I'm not saying it's the best, or only way either, but it works well for people who have trained well.

Basically, if you can't make one of the most famous of all Wing Chun postures work against a measly kick then you aint been doing the chun enuff my friends...:o


A good Muay Thai kick is not a measly kick and will destroy most arms, WCK trained or not. To have to use the arms in that manner is a last ditch effort and only one in which you move closer to the source of the power and jam it before it has power to build, or step away away from the power, and the worst thing is that you are always one beat behind the opponent, which you are subject to eating his fists and elbows, or he will get you in a plum and shake you about and knee or throw you at will. Or if you take the kick, your arms go numb and they will simply fire another kick which you will eat.

Spencer, I think you've met a few nice guys playing around, Master Toddy trained or not. A real Muay Thai fighter will throw out multiple kicks in succession and not just one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xl35p8u5O4Y

Leg against arm, I'd vote for the leg.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5WhjIaZNUA&feature=related

[Knifefighter]

Umm... last time I checked, you often absorb kicks in Muay Thai with the arms without messing up your arms.

How else do you think you would stop a kick that is coming in above the abdominal area?

[t_niehoff]

Umm... last time I checked, you often absorb kicks in Muay Thai with the arms without messing up your arms.

How else do you think you would stop a kick that is coming in above the abdominal area?

No doubt about that . . . but how you do it is critical.

I guess it doesn't make a lot of sense to the "rational" people here that the folks who worked out the best ways of dealing with MT kicks would be MT fighters (since they are constantly facing them).

[Knifefighter]

Not from Wing Chun but from Silat they have a concept called the Elbow Shield. Essentially, they bend the body low and place the elbow near the hip. The idea is to present a smaller target and to put the bony part of the elbow in the path of a kick. Not so much blocking, but more like laying the elbow in the potential path.

Speaking of non-fighting arts that don't know how to deal with MT kicks.

[Sihing73]

Speaking of non-fighting arts that don't know how to deal with MT kicks.

Calling Silat a non-fighting art tells a lot about how much or little your really know ;)

[Knifefighter]

Calling Silat a non-fighting art tells a lot about how much or little your really know ;)

Based on the fact that several of my best friends trained with instructors whom many consider to be two of the most knowledgeable instructors of Silat in the states, I think I know a little bit about it.

Thinking of Silat as a fighting art shows how much you don't know about actual fighting.

[chusauli]

http://www.casttv.com/shows/penn-teller-bull****/martial-arts/asrh05

In some free time I had, this was actually quite enjoyable.

[shawchemical]

Ah that's right. It was the other guy who backpeddled and said that he uses it on the thigh. I remember now.

Your's was with the elbow where I said you can't take it on the elbow (unless your arm is bent close to 90 deg) full on because if your arm was close to straight it would probably damage the joint....case in point...see below where I respond to your thai pad holding scenario.



I think the external type drilling would benefit ANY type practitioner. Too much of the word "advanced" going around which has nothing to do with the benefits of hitting a hard object to gradually build up resilience. To that end I've met tons of folks that can bang on a dummy. What's your version of advanced banging though?



The elbows elbows elbows do work, but as I explained before, even doing that with a gaan sao posture is likely to injure your arm and joint if taking the full force of a kick. Now if you use the elbow to counter the kick, it's quite effective--but you must do it with a bend arm using more of a chum jang movement for a mid level round kick or a cover elbow to a high kick. The low kicks or low-mid kicks shouldn't be done this way. That's what your knee is for.

And the thai pad holders don't use a gaan sao movement to block low kicks, they're holding the pad down low for a lighter kick. Try holding the pad and letting someone kick it. Hold it first with your arm straight, tell me how that makes your elbow joint feel as the power is progressively ramped up. Then try it with your arm bent at 90 degrees (where you'll have to squat down a bit). Alot easier isn't it? There's a reason for that. Because a straight arm sweeping motion against a hard kick hurts--it hurts on the wrist, the radial/ulnar bone, and the joint because those bones and joints aren't strong enough to support the absorption of a full on round kick with the shin. With the arm bent, you now have a better structure to use the elbow against the kick, though it's still an inferior bone when compared to the strength of the tibia.

Just try it. You'll see what I'm talking about then.

Nope moron, I didn't backpedal. I never equated trying to block a kick at the point where it has the greatest kinetic energy. It's always going to be on the thigh, because noone in their right mind regardless of what system they've trained is going to stand still in front of a person who is trying to kick them.

YOu just don't get it, but that's ok. The world knows you're a bit/ch
You're utterly clueless.

[Sihing73]

Based on the fact that several of my best friends trained with instructors whom many consider to be two of the most knowledgeable instructors of Silat in the states, I think I know a little bit about it.

Thinking of Silat as a fighting art shows how much you don't know about actual fighting.

Not sure I believe you have friends :p

But, hey let's see the video of them training and do tell their lineage :D

Also, you did not say you trained Silat so, kind of like your limited Wing Chun training, you seem to have limited, or perhaps non-existent Silat training as well. :rolleyes:

But when did your lack of knowledge about a subject ever stop you from commenting??? :D

[Wayfaring]

How else do you think you would stop a kick that is coming in above the abdominal area?

With my face? :D

True story.

[Knifefighter]

Not sure I believe you have friends :p

But, hey let's see the video of them training and do tell their lineage :D

Also, you did not say you trained Silat so, kind of like your limited Wing Chun training, you seem to have limited, or perhaps non-existent Silat training as well. :rolleyes:

But when did your lack of knowledge about a subject ever stop you from commenting??? :D

My experience is from sparring the silat-trained guys.

[Sihing73]

My experience is from sparring the silat-trained guys.

Well, unless you have video I doubt it ever happened :p

Besides, by your standards if they were not into MMA then they must have been scrubs, so hardly a fair comparison. :rolleyes:

So who are these "Two people considered to be the best Silat guys in the States?" I actually am curious about this.

[LoneTiger108]

The elbows elbows elbows do work, but as I explained before, even doing that with a gaan sao posture is likely to injure your arm and joint if taking the full force of a kick. Now if you use the elbow to counter the kick, it's quite effective--but you must do it with a bend arm using more of a chum jang movement for a mid level round kick or a cover elbow to a high kick.

Is it me or are you repeating what I've already said, in a round-a-bout sort of way!?


And the thai pad holders don't use a gaan sao movement to block low kicks, they're holding the pad down low for a lighter kick.

Okay. Point taken. I will continue to train my way, and call the postures I use what I like, as long as it makes sense to me. Upper, mid or lower paths really make little difference in the posture you hold with the pads. And I've done my fair share of holding pads too!


Spencer, I think you've met a few nice guys playing around, Master Toddy trained or not. A real Muay Thai fighter will throw out multiple kicks in succession and not just one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xl35p8u5O4Y

Leg against arm, I'd vote for the leg.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5Whj...eature=related

Maybe you're right, I do have some good old friends! And fwiw that 1st clips pad man is NOT in gaan sau! I'd still like to see what effect it would have to catch any of those thai guys sweetly with my gaan elbows. There will be no second kick imho as my elbows are steel!! :D I haven't even mentioned my own legwork countering at the same time either!

In all seriousness, a simple (properly drilled!) pak sau to a point on the inner thigh will stop a kicker quite easily. As I've seen before a few times. If not on the first attempt it will by the third! I personally think you give these thai fighters too much cred. EVERYONE looks awesome in training!! :rolleyes:

[SAAMAG]

It's not cred...it's not just fighters...it's just about any one of the properly trained people that kick in this way. You say that a pak to the thigh can stop it "quite easily"...if that's the case why is that not done?

The techniques used in that type of fighting are developed from trail and error, pressure tested, and are proven to work....don't you think they'd be doing pak's to thighs if it was as easy and effective as you say?

[sanjuro_ronin]

The best WC defense for a round kick is punching the kicker in the face.
That also happens to be the best defense for a round kick in MT too.
And in every other MA.
:p

[SAAMAG]

Umm... last time I checked, you often absorb kicks in Muay Thai with the arms without messing up your arms.

How else do you think you would stop a kick that is coming in above the abdominal area?


No doubt about that . . . but how you do it is critical.

I guess it doesn't make a lot of sense to the "rational" people here that the folks who worked out the best ways of dealing with MT kicks would be MT fighters (since they are constantly facing them).

You do, but as Terence stated, you do it in different ways. The point I was trying to make is that the gaan sao is apparently being taught as a maneuver that can be used to block mid body attacks. Case in point is whenever WC guys would come to my MT gym they'd be trying gaan sao's against the kicks, and hurt their arms. Then the MT guys would ask me why they're so stiff and fight so differently using wing chun than I do. I'd just shrug and say "I learned from my brother who learned in Hawaii. Maybe they do it different there?"

In MT, you can absorb kicks with the arms, but it's done with the arms bent, and generally held close to the body. High kicks use upper arm / elbow to block as you cover the side of your head. High-mid kicks are covered by keeping the arm tight against the body and using the lower lower forearm/elbow or upper arms to absorb. Lower torso kicks and down are checked with the knee/upper shin. So if you MUST cover or block, these are the general ways to do it There are no "arm against legs" scenarios. There are no slaps to the thighs or chops to the thighs. If these were useful in their fights...they'd be using them already. To be fair--there are elbow spikes to the thighs once you've caught the leg, and there are leg checks to the inner thigh...so same sort of idea.

But since fighting is fighting--things don't always happen perfectly and you deal with what you get. That's understandable. But what you DON'T do is try to block a power shot by swinging an arm in a arc against a superior force coming at you full bore.

[SAAMAG]

The best WC defense for a round kick is punching the kicker in the face.
That also happens to be the best defense for a round kick in MT too.
And in every other MA.
:p

You win a prize!

http://nopadon.smugmug.com/photos/491872916_Y5VrD-L.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

I've always wanted a tranny kickboxer to kick my ass !
Sweet !!!

[SAAMAG]

And on a side note other ways to counter the thai kick nicely are sweeping the supporting leg at the same time, teeping the body, catching & punching/throwing/sweeping; and other niceties .

Oddly enough, wing chun wise I'd pretty much do it the same way. Step in and punch, step in/out and kick the body or support leg, kicking the kicking leg, catching and throwing or kicking....and etc.

[SAAMAG]

I've always wanted a tranny kickboxer to kick my ass !
Sweet !!!

http://www.bangkokmafia.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/asian-girl-finger.jpg

[LoneTiger108]

The techniques used in that type of fighting are developed from trail and error, pressure tested, and are proven to work....don't you think they'd be doing pak's to thighs if it was as easy and effective as you say?

I can't tell you that coz I really don't know. Maybe the gloves don't work in the same way as a palm? Pak sau for me is an idea. A drill. Drill anything well and it does gain power, no?


In MT, you can absorb kicks with the arms, but it's done with the arms bent, and generally held close to the body. High kicks use upper arm / elbow to block as you cover the side of your head. High-mid kicks are covered by keeping the arm tight against the body and using the lower lower forearm/elbow or upper arms to absorb.

FWIW I train the gaan sau posture like this. For me the posture is key, where and how it travels for its purpose may depend on how you have trained. How far you've taken gaan sau. It isn't only thrown out there in a arc imo.

[Wayfaring]

To me the story with MT kicks, whether or not you're going to intercept them, cover, or whatever is like the link below.

Don't be where the bats are when someone skilled is kicking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibaoEHZrdOM

[Ultimatewingchun]

I have found that the use of CENTERLINE principles enhances the boxing that I use...

and by using boxing in conjunction with the CENTERLINE principles....my wing chun is enhanced.

In the standup striking/kicking game, that is.

Boxing from long range (aided and abetted by boxing type footwork and long range kicks)...gets me to close range....where wing chun takes the ball....

until if and when a clinch comes into play...then it's wrestling and some Muay Thai....and yes, possibly mixed with wing chun if some separation takes place...

and/or some boxing hooks, uppercuts, and dirty boxing (hold and strike)...which is clearly a close cousin to wing chun simultaneous block and strike at close range anyway.

AND BY CENTERLINE PRINCIPLES I MEAN THIS:

My right arm is fighting his left for domination and control of the right shoulder line...and my left arm is fighting his right for domination and control of my left shoulder line...

and at very close range....these shoulder lines are given up and the MAIN CENTERLINE (down the middle of my body) is now the PRIMARY FOCUS.

So I'm using three centerlines....(sometimes referred to in their totality as the CENTRAL LINE).

And when the three centerlines are used...quite a bit of wing chun becomes functional
(ie.- pak, lop, tan, bil, jut, garn, bong, lan, huen, chuen, low heel kicks, and even multiple vertical fist chain punches.)

[Ultimatewingchun]

"The point I was trying to make is that the gaan sao is apparently being taught as a maneuver that can be used to block mid body attacks. Case in point is whenever WC guys would come to my MT gym they'd be trying gaan sao's against the kicks, and hurt their arms." (Vankuen)
........................

***That's right. A "pure" garn sao will get your arms messed up.
...............................

"In MT, you can absorb kicks with the arms, but it's done with the arms bent, and generally held close to the body." (Vankuen)
................................

***Which is why, when I choose to use garn sao, the garn arm is bent slightly, the garn hand is in a fist, and the wu sao is also in a fist.
..................................

"High kicks use upper arm / elbow to block as you cover the side of your head. High-mid kicks are covered by keeping the arm tight against the body and using the lower lower forearm/elbow or upper arms to absorb. Lower torso kicks and down are checked with the knee/upper shin. So if you MUST cover or block, these are the general ways to do it There are no "arm against legs" scenarios. There are no slaps to the thighs or chops to the thighs. If these were useful in their fights...they'd be using them already. To be fair--there are elbow spikes to the thighs once you've caught the leg, and there are leg checks to the inner thigh...so same sort of idea." (Vankuen)
..................................

****Right again.

[chusauli]

Maybe you're right, I do have some good old friends! And fwiw that 1st clips pad man is NOT in gaan sau! I'd still like to see what effect it would have to catch any of those thai guys sweetly with my gaan elbows. There will be no second kick imho as my elbows are steel!! :D I haven't even mentioned my own legwork countering at the same time either!

In all seriousness, a simple (properly drilled!) pak sau to a point on the inner thigh will stop a kicker quite easily. As I've seen before a few times. If not on the first attempt it will by the third! I personally think you give these thai fighters too much cred. EVERYONE looks awesome in training!! :rolleyes:


Spencer, you could have Richard Simmons' buns of steel :eek:, but to be one beat behind to receive a kick with Gaun Sao, instead of punching your opponent in the face is not the best choice. (Sanjuro/Paul, time to insert picture...)

National Geographic had a special on the great White Shark - it showed that when the shark was confronted by a crazy diver, the shark ran away. I swear you could see the shark with an expression on his face, saying, "This guy's crazy! I'm outta here!" LOL!

[LoneTiger108]

Spencer, you could have Richard Simmons' buns of steel :eek:, but to be one beat behind to receive a kick with Gaun Sao, instead of punching your opponent in the face is not the best choice. (Sanjuro/Paul, time to insert picture...)

Here we go again! ;) Where have I said I'd be one beat behind? And yes, of course we should go for the punch to the face. This is gaan sau I'm talking of too. Gaan da on the sau bao kuen (sandbag). It's everywhere! Which is why it's there in the core of Wing Chun. How many of you refer to any pole postures as gaan sau/gwan? How many have trained their empty hand against the gwan attacks? The pole is about the same size as the shin no??


National Geographic had a special on the great White Shark - it showed that when the shark was confronted by a crazy diver, the shark ran away. I swear you could see the shark with an expression on his face, saying, "This guy's crazy! I'm outta here!" LOL!

I'm more of a white tiger really :p but I can see your point here! Only too often have I stood opposite beasts that just look like they can take my head off. So I guess if there is any skill to take from another system, it would be the aggressiveness of the streets. The committment of Shaolin. And the artistry of Canton Opera!

Hang on... ;)

[SAAMAG]

Here we go again! ;) Where have I said I'd be one beat behind? And yes, of course we should go for the punch to the face. This is gaan sau I'm talking of too. Gaan da on the sau bao kuen (sandbag). It's everywhere! Which is why it's there in the core of Wing Chun. How many of you refer to any pole postures as gaan sau/gwan? How many have trained their empty hand against the gwan attacks? The pole is about the same size as the shin no??



I'm more of a white tiger really :p but I can see your point here! Only too often have I stood opposite beasts that just look like they can take my head off. So I guess if there is any skill to take from another system, it would be the aggressiveness of the streets. The committment of Shaolin. And the artistry of Canton Opera!

Hang on... ;)

If someone was swinging a bat at you, would you try and gaan sao it? Seriously?

[LoneTiger108]

If someone was swinging a bat at you, would you try and gaan sao it? Seriously?

Er... yes. I thought I made that clear. Obviously, after hearing what you have to say, I would definitely not use the gaan sau as you think!

There is a method I use called 'siip dai' where I draw-in an attack before it get's 'stunned' or stopped. This isn't simple bone on bone crunching. There are many ways to use gaan sau and all I'm saying is that I would be quite comfortable doing that against an excellent kicker, coz I've done it many times before. Quan sau too. Po pai too. ;)

[CFT]

I'm guessing Spencer is not advocating gaan sau against kick in a force against force, bone against bone fashion -->||<--. That would be crazy as many have said.

I'm thinking that he is more: /(

i.e. the kicking leg is like the tangent to the curve of the gaan sau (combined with footwork/pivoting).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CIRCLE_LINES.svg

[LoneTiger108]

I'm guessing Spencer is not advocating gaan sau against kick in a force against force, bone against bone fashion -->||<--. That would be crazy as many have said.

Yes I am AS LONG AS you attack the kick with your elbows, and have been drilled properly(?)! Otherwise I am also saying that gaan sau has MANY ways, one of which would also be akin to what you have described.


I'm thinking that he is more: /(

i.e. the kicking leg is like the tangent to the curve of the gaan sau (combined with footwork/pivoting).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CIRCLE_LINES.svg

[SAAMAG]

I'm guessing Spencer is not advocating gaan sau against kick in a force against force, bone against bone fashion -->||<--. That would be crazy as many have said.

I'm thinking that he is more: /(

i.e. the kicking leg is like the tangent to the curve of the gaan sau (combined with footwork/pivoting).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CIRCLE_LINES.svg

Then it's wasted motion and unnecessary to even do it--which goes against wing chun theory. No wasted motion right?

It's quite easy just to use footwork alone to avoid a round kick while staying in the pocket. Pivot and counter--done. Why bring one hand down when you don't have to right?

[Phil Redmond]

Close, it's "One mind, any weapon". Even though I did boot camp a long time ago one of the things that really stuck with me was weapons of opportunity. Your environment is filled with weapons if you chose to use them from sticks, rocks, that pen in your pocket, a cup of coffee and one demo we saw the instructor blew his nose into his hand and reached for the recruit with it, the recruit reacted with disgust focusing on the handful of snot :eek: when the instructor clocked him with the other hand.

There is no such thing as a fair fight, only fights you win and fights that you don't.
Semper "f----ng" Fi

[Wayfaring]

AND BY CENTERLINE PRINCIPLES I MEAN THIS:

My right arm is fighting his left for domination and control of the right shoulder line...and my left arm is fighting his right for domination and control of my left shoulder line...

and at very close range....these shoulder lines are given up and the MAIN CENTERLINE (down the middle of my body) is now the PRIMARY FOCUS.

So I'm using three centerlines....(sometimes referred to in their totality as the CENTRAL LINE).

And when the three centerlines are used...quite a bit of wing chun becomes functional
(ie.- pak, lop, tan, bil, jut, garn, bong, lan, huen, chuen, low heel kicks, and even multiple vertical fist chain punches.)

Hey Victor,

Props for your explanation of the TWC central line. I know a lot of people say HFY and TWC are so similar, but I've never encountered that concept and didn't really understand it.

Your description of the goals and range specifically make it really clear, better than anything I've seen posted on it before.

[LoneTiger108]

Hey Victor,

Props for your explanation of the TWC central line. I know a lot of people say HFY and TWC are so similar, but I've never encountered that concept and didn't really understand it.

Your description of the goals and range specifically make it really clear, better than anything I've seen posted on it before.

They way I read it, it sounded like, what I refer to as, tsong sum jiik sin. Literally translated central heart direct line. The central heart being the line projecting from your heart and the direct line being projected from your shoulder. Fighting in triangles and squares. Put them both together and you basically cover every possibility of jin san or square facing combat. What Ip Man was infamous for imho.

Is this a similar idea to the TWC Central Line as explained?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Hey Victor,

Props for your explanation of the TWC central line. I know a lot of people say HFY and TWC are so similar, but I've never encountered that concept and didn't really understand it.

Your description of the goals and range specifically make it really clear, better than anything I've seen posted on it before.

***THANKS.

You know, it's only recently that I've started describing the central line in this way for myself and my students. So much can easily be lost or misunderstood in wing chun if you don't try to simplify the concepts and principles - and by that I mean just cut them down to the essentials.

There's more that could be said about the central line - but I think that the "three centerlines" way of describing it hits all of the most important bases.

[Ultimatewingchun]

They way I read it, it sounded like, what I refer to as, tsong sum jiik sin. Literally translated central heart direct line. The central heart being the line projecting from your heart and the direct line being projected from your shoulder. Fighting in triangles and squares. Put them both together and you basically cover every possibility of jin san or square facing combat. What Ip Man was infamous for imho.

Is this a similar idea to the TWC Central Line as explained?

***NOT trying to be condesending, Lone Tiger, so don't be offended...but what you describe here is a good example of what I mean when I say that things can easily get lost or misinterpreted when we don't just stick to the basic essentials.

What you wrote sounds very confusing and unclear, to be honest. Could very well be, in the final analysis, the same thing I tried to say - but who could be sure?

[kung fu fighter]

Can wing chun be complemented by CLF? I really liked and can appreciate the quality and effeciency that Micheal Parrella demonstrate in these clips even though he does a different style than I do. Good kung fu is good kung fu!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iz4pak_O2ag
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8yUMb5n1i0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XI8rzaUaTQ0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWfRsh2roeI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqGMm0YyIec&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNm_7_PtJOc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgGPNFmV5sU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtQFnt4__Pw&feature=related

[LoneTiger108]

***NOT trying to be condesending, Lone Tiger, so don't be offended...but what you describe here is a good example of what I mean when I say that things can easily get lost or misinterpreted when we don't just stick to the basic essentials.

Its okay, I'm not offended! Thing is, for me, this IS the basic essentials. One line, four characters, simple explanation. However, I do understand that I'm by far the best at putting this info across online!! I do prefer to 'show'. :cool:


What you wrote sounds very confusing and unclear, to be honest. Could very well be, in the final analysis, the same thing I tried to say - but who could be sure?

This is where I don't get it, as it's far from confusing to me. The saam jong sin idea you talk of exists but I haven't heard it described as you have. Using the terms you're using is confusing to me! ;) But this is expected as we come from completely different families/generations.

All I can do is share thoughts and ideas, it's up to you to stay open minded, as I try to do when I read the posts here...

[TenTigers]

gaun-sao can work against a kick IF..the person steps off line, so as not to be at the apex of the kick
-the same way you catch a MT kick.
-the same way dbl gaun-sau is used in the 108MYJ.
If you stand there and gaun-sao, you will get busted up.

my .02

[anerlich]

Can wing chun be complemented by CLF?

My first instructor, David Crook, has taught a mix of WC, CLF, and Northern Sil Lum since 1969.

His view, which he can and has backed up on a number of occasions physically, is that while WC and CLF are traditional enemies, they are in fact highly complementary.

[LoneTiger108]

My first instructor, David Crook, has taught a mix of WC, CLF, and Northern Sil Lum since 1969.

His view, which he can and has backed up on a number of occasions physically, is that while WC and CLF are traditional enemies, they are in fact highly complementary.

Not to sound 'anti-CLF' but it is my understanding that Wing Chun pretty much compliments ANY form of, so-called, traditional chinese martial arts. This includes CLF, SPM and HK to name a few. Whether it can be the 'other way round' I think depends on what you know about, or how much you're into Wing Chun itself imho.

[anerlich]

Whether it can be the 'other way round' I think depends on what you know about, or how much you're into Wing Chun itself imho.


David's only been practising WC since the mid 1960's, so of course he couldn't possibly have your depth of knowledge ... :rolleyes:

[Wayfaring]

David's only been practising WC since the mid 1960's, so of course he couldn't possibly have your depth of knowledge ... :rolleyes:

While your point is taken there, I also have been playing basketball longer than LeBron James.

[anerlich]

While your point is also taken, I still believe my instructor is way better qualified to make judgements about WC and CLF than anyone on this forum.

[LoneTiger108]

David's only been practising WC since the mid 1960's, so of course he couldn't possibly have your depth of knowledge ... :rolleyes:

What's wrong with you guys? I would hope he has 30 times more knowledge than me to be fair, so why not stop the girlie snipes?!

What I meant was, well, I tell you what, forget it... this says it all about you too...


I still believe my instructor is way better qualified to make judgements about WC and CLF than anyone on this forum

Sifu is always right! Hope his 'qualification' is in a nice frame on his wall :rolleyes: Is this the same guy? White Tiger?
http://www.bacfudo.net/

[dirtyrat]

Anyone ever studied shuaijiao?

I always felt for those who did, it gave insight into extracting the grappling techniques from the forms of whatever kung fu style he/she may be into. A lot of my wing chun friends seem to treat their style primarily as a striking system. I never bought into that.

[kung fu fighter]

I found grappling arts such as judo, BJJ, greco and free style wrestling had alot in common with wing chun, especially the regarding controlling of the opponent's center of gravity and certain core mechanics.

[air]

Personally I like Tai Chi and Chi'na

[mjw]

I found grappling arts such as judo, BJJ, greco and free style wrestling had alot in common with wing chun, especially the regarding controlling of the opponent's center of gravity and certain core mechanics.

Likewise in regards to wrestling and BJJ that I have done.

Also at times some of the combinations I learned in Boxing and Karate do come out with a WC twist to them ie vertical fist etc.

[kung fu fighter]

Personally I like Tai Chi and Chi'na

I also feel these styles complement wing chun well

[mjw]

I heard that in Hong Kong a lot of the WC people do tai chi.....

[Violent Designs]

Don't just be a student of WCK, be a student of martial arts.

Learn striking, kicking, throwing, joint locks, chokes, ground fighting. And also learn projectile, impact and bladed weapons. Explosives are fun, as are modern methods of warfare. Learn the way of strategy.

WCK is a small sliver of martial arts sum total.

Great advice Chu shifu.

[jesper]

Escrima for weapons
some Thai and savate kicks
Bjj

[Violent Designs]

Nam Tang Lang uses more variety for Chi Sau than WCK.

Why doesn't WCK try to evolve the chi sau to encompass more range or motions?

Surely this will be beneficial?

[free2flow]

Escrima for weapons
some Thai and savate kicks
Bjj

Agree with eskrima, I do Balintawak Eskrima and it really blends very well with Wing Chun.

This is my first post. Hope to learn more about Wing Chun from the experts here :).

[Frost]

Not to sound 'anti-CLF' but it is my understanding that Wing Chun pretty much compliments ANY form of, so-called, traditional chinese martial arts. This includes CLF, SPM and HK to name a few. Whether it can be the 'other way round' I think depends on what you know about, or how much you're into Wing Chun itself imho.

wing chun is a close range direct form of fighting correct, at least thats what everyoe on here says........ therefore it makes sense it would compliment not just any form of TCMA but one that is primarily long range, circular and concentrates on fast whipping outside strikes, why would one want to combine it with something like SPM which is itself a close range direct system, not saying the two couldn't work together but there would be so much overlap as to make it not worth the effort, where as training in two systems that are seperate and concentrate on two different ranges makes perfext sensw

As for the last part of your comment if you cant see why it annoyed annlech then your head really is in the sand

[PalmStriker]

While your point is also taken, I still believe my instructor is way better qualified to make judgements about WC and CLF than anyone on this forum.

I checked out the site, I expected to see a "Chinese GrandMaster" to be that enlightened.

[PalmStriker]

Not to sound 'anti-CLF' but it is my understanding that Wing Chun pretty much compliments ANY form of, so-called, traditional chinese martial arts. This includes CLF, SPM and HK to name a few. Whether it can be the 'other way round' I think depends on what you know about, or how much you're into Wing Chun itself imho.

For me Wing Chun has been an essential compliment/supplement to my practice, not to mention oversized forearms (13" circumference, at 198lbs. body weight) from fast hands workouts.

[Violent Designs]

wing chun is a close range direct form of fighting correct, at least thats what everyoe on here says........ therefore it makes sense it would compliment not just any form of TCMA but one that is primarily long range, circular and concentrates on fast whipping outside strikes, why would one want to combine it with something like SPM which is itself a close range direct system, not saying the two couldn't work together but there would be so much overlap as to make it not worth the effort, where as training in two systems that are seperate and concentrate on two different ranges makes perfext sensw

As for the last part of your comment if you cant see why it annoyed annlech then your head really is in the sand

Choy Lay Fut is primarily a middle-range striking system like Muay Thai. It is really not long-range, like some form of TKD or Pigua Zhang for example.

The long extension is to emphasize penetration after impact, not to reach for the long distance.

[Dragonzbane76]

man i thought this thread had died.... you WC guys won't let anything die will you? And I thought I was stubborn.......:D

[Violent Designs]

I'm not a Wing Chun guy, I just wanted to correct a false assumption.

[Frost]

I'm not a Wing Chun guy, I just wanted to correct a false assumption.

Maybe I used a poor choice of words, (the CLF I did for a bit was considered a short hand village style so I understand what you are saying) I should have said a more open circular style that can be used at a longer range than wing chun typically works at and which uses techniques and ways of generating power wing chun typically doesn’t…. that would be a good match rather than another style that also spends a lot of time fighting on the inside using the centre line and using predominantly linear techniques

How’s that sound :)

[Xiao3 Meng4]

I find that Tai Ji's Stepping drills (3-step Linear Moving Step, 3-step Looping Step, and Da Lu) complement Chi Gerk very nicely. It's basically a tripping game and helps a lot by offering practical options for either a downright throw or a simple trip to unbalance them and gain control.

Since Wing Chun's theory is often interpreted as "never stepping back," the Tai Ji concept of "investing in loss" is a good balance to that interpretation. Within the context of the tripping game, the person stepping back has as much opportunity to trip as the person stepping forward... the step backward therefore represents both a "retreat and regroup" strategy as well as a "pretend to retreat and drawn them in" strategy. Definitely not something that is commonly taught in Wing Chun, but a nice complementary method nonetheless.