Sick Man of Asia

[sanjuro_ronin]

Reading Brian and Elizabeth's VERY excellent book about Jingwu, brought up the old "sick man of asia" saying.
It seems that at one point there may have been too many "scholars" and not enough fighters in CMA, too many how beleived "internal" meant NO Strength training, too many that, because of their lack of fighting experience believed that strength was even counter-productive.
While Jingwu remedied that, it seems that some are still under that very INCORRECT view.
Now, Strength training ( from now one called ST), had always been a part of MA when the focus of MA was effective fighting.
Typically a regime consisted of:
Conditioning - strength, speed, flexibility
Technique training ( all areas of combat)
Two man drills and sparring
Weapons
Forms

The crucial element was physical conditioning and that is pure common sense of course, I mean, what good is all the technqiue in the world with no power or speed or strength to apply it?

Not all systems fell into the "BS" of the "internal misrepresentation".
Case in point Hung Ga/Kuen, an example of some HK masters such as
Chui Chi ling at an advanced age:
http://www.hunggarkuen.it/img/galleriachiu/093.jpg

Chui Wai:
http://www.hkhunggar.com/Chiu%20Wai.jpg

Chi kuan
http://www.hungkuen.de/images/ChiKuanChun_rings.jpg

In the old days they used stone wieghts and heavy metal bars, they woulf lift and carry heavy jars or stones, much like the "dinosour" training of today.

Even the more "secretive" systems never neglected physical conditioning and always inculded the core elements usch as body weight exercises liek chin ups, push ups and such:
example:
http://www.chowgar-mantis.com/chowgar/KungFu_Intro_en.htm
Conditioning exercises —— To direct the Ren, Du, Annular Waist, Chong (Vital) channels from conscious state to unconscious state by will power and movements so that they can operate freely for the purpose of resisting disease and prolonging longevity.
Body protection exercises —— universe power, poisonous snake mist exhale power, Buddha worshiping (individual and complete movements), hard and soft power, praying mantis essence assimilation power, testicles withdrawal power.。
Combating exercises —— dragon seizing hands (mountain raising power), press ups drill (iron finger power), shock power (ribcage closing power), chest in and power release (iron back power)


Chen Taiji for example not only uses body on body work, but pole training and stomping ( plyometrics) and of course, more modern methods available to them now.

[sanjuro_ronin]

This was the case with the vast majority of training in CMA, until SOMEONE put it into the heads of lazy people, that physical conditioning was somehow inferior to "technqiue".
They shrouded themselves in mysterious origins ( Daoist immortals) and under the excuse of "too deadly" for fighting, truly turned CMA into the "sick men of asia".

Of course this was irrelevant to those that ACTUALLY fought and knew the truth about MA:
Its about hard, physical training.
But it sold many people looking for an easy out,people that wanted to be the deadly but didn't want to see their own blood or feel the pain of training.

Thank goodness for the likes of Huo and other like him.


But yet we still see, to this day, the same ignorant view that has the potential to keep many CMA as "sick men of Asia".

[Frost]

as you say scholars and those who did not fight are to blame (as well as those who dont train but tell others how it is done in a real TCMA school...cough...cough)

My first master was also a very good strength coach and used to train his fighters with deadlifts squats etc, he was using heavy negatives etc in the 70's to increase peoples bench and made anatomy and conditioning courses mandatory for his blackbelts. He also taught old school conditioning methods and in his 60s was still one strong motha.

[goju]

you mean bruce lee wasnt the first to advocate weights in martial arts!:eek:

It all just comes down to laziness and people who think they can find a magical way to deveop power with out weights of some sort.:rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

People like myths, that is why you get so many in common, like the wandering monk myth.
Taiji was developed in the Chen Village, that is an historical fact, but some still believe it was created buy a Daoist Monk.
Strength training has ALWAYS been a part of MA training in EVERY country, but for some, it is easier to believe that it makes you "slow and muscle bound" and blocks your "chi", LOL !
Some still believe that training something in the air and never fighting will some how make you a fighter.
Some believe that Chi is like the force in the Star wars movies.
Some people believe ANYTHING their teacher tells them because HE can beat THEM up.
Some people don't see the very BS they accuse others is what THEY do.
What was the most common thing for an Asian to do with his MA?
Test it, learn from as many masters as he could, blend it and name it after his Family.
That was standard procedure in China and most of Asia.
Can you imagine someone doing that now???

And yet, that is how it has ALWAYS been DONE !

[goju]

^aaaaaaaand that is EXACTLY why i prefer to train alone most of the time

martial arts is really a magnet for delusional weirdo fruitcakes:D

[goju]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RU3SX2ZfTUA
good old footage of some st in goju:D

[Sardinkahnikov]

Excellent thread, five stars.

Physical prowess is indeed a crucial, yet neglected component in martial arts. I was lucky enough to have found a teacher who stressed this aspect of training and pushed us to our limits.

About the weight thing: my sifu wasn't against weights per se, he just stated that training for muscular hypertrophy was a waste of time and even counter productive to training.

The pics of those old masters are indeed remarkable in this day and age, in which arthritis and back problems are the norm for people, even amongst the younger population. I blame our bad diet and cubicle **** jobs.

That Goju-ryu clip was pretty cool. It's always interesting to see serious martial arts training.

Well, enough babbling, I'm off to do some hindu pushups. Cheers :D

[chusauli]

TCMA always included Strength training. It is the Lian Gong aspect. Doing forms alone or two man sets does not cut it - it must be along side weights, running, stretching, heavy pole work, rings, heavy weapons, stone locks, grip training, lever weights, push hands, etc.

By just training in boxing (TCMA) alone, it will lead to nothing when old without the hard training.

"Sick Man of Asia" really referred ti the annexing of China by foreign governments and losing many battles.

[goju]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_hqhOjRaIZsE/Sx-_pyJsEkI/AAAAAAAAALo/3BuM9VeoKbo/s320/stone+padlocks.JPG

http://www.karateblogger.com/stari/images/kyan-4c.jpg

http://uechikenyukaiamiens.free.fr/images/takemi/takemi1.jpg

http://img.youtube.com/vi/Kgsc-L3qbxk/0.jpg

[Jimbo]

When I lived in Taiwan, I used to see some old taiji teachers in the park. Apparently, they'd been there for decades, and their emphasis was purely on the "internal energy" aspect. When they taught, or they and their students would move, there appeared to be very little to no effort expended. Some of them would say that hard physical training was no good, and that "internal" training was superior and keeps you healthier over the long-term. Some of them made ridiculous claims of internal 'powers', like being able to point at a fly and make it do somersaults by turning your finger; or to create a protective force field around themselves. Of course, they never would/could actually show it.

However, when I looked at them, they never looked healthy or even gave the impression of good health. Some were flabby. Now, someone can have some flab and still be quite fit or healthy. But not these guys. And others were simply frail. They didn't give the aura of energy at all, let alone internal energy.

I knew one old guy who was very vigorous and healthy. He walked a lot every day, and he carried a cane but didn't use it to help him walk. He walked fast, and in his youth in China, he'd been a bodybuilder and had trained some "Shaolin". His mind was sharp, he was physically strong, and his eyes gave off the spirit of good health. He would socialize with the other elderly men and would literally walk circles around those old taiji teachers, many of whom were younger than he was. He exuded heaps of confidence.

All the old teachers I've ever seen whose abilities were still viable into old age had gone through all the hard, physical training.

[Lee Chiang Po]

It is a natural fact that skill and polished technique will enhance your fighting abilities, and that physical conditioning will enhance it ever further. In the old days CMA was taught to soldiers that fought with it, but in todays world it is not such an important part of training, altho they do train it. Today it is taught to people of every walk of life for the purpose of pestege and financial gain. Their is no urgency, and they are not forced to do it. I have no doubt that if MMA fighting was to the death, you would see some serious fighting. Same with any MA. If the final test was fighting to the death, people would train serious.

[goju]

ah one more thing i forgot to add

i feel that while there are certain groups that advocate against st because they feel it will hinder your martial arts i feel the majority dont include this in their work outs just because how time consuming and hard it is

think about the average school is open what? three days a week usually for hour long classes. its simply not enough time to get everything done and try to put a group of average joes and weekend warriors through proper st and see how quickly people drop out due to how difficult it is or lack of interest. The average person just wants to learn a few fancy forms and self defense moves that they can show off to their friends at work not lift heavy bars in all sorts of manners and pinch grip heavy jars.couple that with expecting them to do these things when they are not in the school and you see my point.

as a result of mass demand teachers have generally supplied the populace with what they want. fancy dance routines coupled with compliant application practice and little else. They do this either because they are money hungry or simply cant stay above water if they trained in the more traditional demanding methods that are required to be a competent martial artists.

i think society world wide has just become to lazy and just doesnt have the dedication to learn everything properly they want it to be quick and effortless not time consuming and painful thus st will be eschews by large from MA and i dont see that changing anytime soon

[SevenStar]

ah one more thing i forgot to add

i feel that while there are certain groups that advocate against st because they feel it will hinder your martial arts i feel the majority dont include this in their work outs just because how time consuming and hard it is

think about the average school is open what? three days a week usually for hour long classes. its simply not enough time to get everything done and try to put a group of average joes and weekend warriors through proper st and see how quickly people drop out due to how difficult it is or lack of interest. The average person just wants to learn a few fancy forms and self defense moves that they can show off to their friends at work not lift heavy bars in all sorts of manners and pinch grip heavy jars.couple that with expecting them to do these things when they are not in the school and you see my point.

as a result of mass demand teachers have generally supplied the populace with what they want. fancy dance routines coupled with compliant application practice and little else. They do this either because they are money hungry or simply cant stay above water if they trained in the more traditional demanding methods that are required to be a competent martial artists.

i think society world wide has just become to lazy and just doesnt have the dedication to learn everything properly they want it to be quick and effortless not time consuming and painful thus st will be eschews by large from MA and i dont see that changing anytime soon



yeah, agreed. I've been saying that for years. I've been fortunate enough to train in schools who don't care whether or not you get bored doing it. In longfist classes, the first 30 is calesthenics. the last hour to 90 mins is technique, and you will still sweat even during that portion. in addition, there is no air conditioning, so it is hot as hell during summer months.

in addition to the normal calesthenics, we carry jars of water in each hand while doing line kicks, perform arm and leg conditioning drills, etc.

[Oso]

About the weight thing: my sifu wasn't against weights per se, he just stated that training for muscular hypertrophy was a waste of time and even counter productive to training.


well, that would be, wouldn't it?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Training for mass - hypertrophy, is only ONE TYPE of ST.
If everyone would look like a BB by doing weights then there would be no need for steroids.
Fact is, you get big NOT because of doing weights but because you do weights and eat to get big.
You don't wanna get big? don't get big, it really is that easy.

[Frost]

Training for mass - hypertrophy, is only ONE TYPE of ST.
If everyone would look like a BB by doing weights then there would be no need for steroids.
Fact is, you get big NOT because of doing weights but because you do weights and eat to get big.
You don't wanna get big? don't get big, it really is that easy.

lol true lightweight powerlifters and super heavys all train the same way...just the heavys eat a lot of twinkies and big macs :)

[TenTigers]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_hqhOjRaIZsE/Sx-_pyJsEkI/AAAAAAAAALo/3BuM9VeoKbo/s320/stone+padlocks.JPG

http://www.karateblogger.com/stari/images/kyan-4c.jpg

http://uechikenyukaiamiens.free.fr/images/takemi/takemi1.jpg

http://img.youtube.com/vi/Kgsc-L3qbxk/0.jpg
who is the last guy?

[sanjuro_ronin]

who is the last guy?

Uechi-ryu /pangai noon master - Shinyu Gushi

[brianlkennedy]

As a kind of historical aside, I saw this thread yesterday and then last night Elizabeth and I started talking about the origin of the phrase “Chinese are the sick men of Asia”. I had thought that the phrase was first used by Chinese to refer to themselves and then later picked up by foreigners.

Elizabeth did a little looking around last night. What she found was that there are three possible origins of this phrase. Some said the heavy-wight intellectual Yan Fu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yan_Fu) first referred to China as a "sick man".

Some said it came from a commentary on First Sino-Japanese War in certain British publication, and became well-known through Liang Qichao's(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liang_Qichao) Chinese translation of that article.

Other said a writer used it as his pen name and thus the phrase gained popularization.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sick_man_of_Asia


On a somewhat related note, folks might remember from the Bruce Lee Jingwu film when he kicks the No Dogs or Chinese Allowed sign off the wall. That sign never existed. It is an urban legend cooked up by the Chinese Communist Party.

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v15/v15n5p31_Weber.html


take care,
Brian

[sanjuro_ronin]

As a kind of historical aside, I saw this thread yesterday and then last night Elizabeth and I started talking about the origin of the phrase “Chinese are the sick men of Asia”. I had thought that the phrase was first used by Chinese to refer to themselves and then later picked up by foreigners.

Elizabeth did a little looking around last night. What she found was that there are three possible origins of this phrase. Some said the heavy-wight intellectual Yan Fu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yan_Fu) first referred to China as a "sick man".

Some said it came from a commentary on First Sino-Japanese War in certain British publication, and became well-known through Liang Qichao's(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liang_Qichao) Chinese translation of that article.

Other said a writer used it as his pen name and thus the phrase gained popularization.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sick_man_of_Asia


On a somewhat related note, folks might remember from the Bruce Lee Jingwu film when he kicks the No Dogs or Chinese Allowed sign off the wall. That sign never existed. It is an urban legend cooked up by the Chinese Communist Party.

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v15/v15n5p31_Weber.html


take care,
Brian

Thanks Brian, I am reading your Jingwu book and it is very good, just what I come to expect of you and Elizabeth.
Super work as always.

[mickey]

Greetings,

So, in a nutshell, Sifu John Allen was right all along.


mickey

[sanjuro_ronin]

Greetings,

So, in a nutshell, Sifu John Allen was right all along.


mickey

Who?
The Green Dragon guy?

[mickey]

Yeah,

He did advocate weight training (I think he is into powerlifting) for kung fu practitioners. And he was alone on that boat for a long time.

mickey

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yeah,

He did advocate weight training (I think he is into powerlifting) for kung fu practitioners. And he was alone on that boat for a long time.

mickey

Well, it was nothing new for "kung fu" people in the old days, the Jingwu book of Brians shows guts doing Strong man poses AND lifting weights even back in the early 1900's.

[mickey]

Yes,

I agree with you.

John Allen was saying this when many people believed otherwise. Many could not fathom that those soft flowing moves were supposed to be done with strength.

mickey

[chusauli]

Weights are old school. John Allen was not the only one doing weight training ever. Maybe in McKwoons, they ignored this aspect.

In Southern Fist like Hung Gar, Southern Mantis and Bak Mei, barbells, rings, tiger fork, guan dao, weighted jars, dumbells, stone and iron locks, and using heavy bricks all account for weight training.

Looking at old Chinese books, you see they used weighted vests, iron balls, carried water buckets, and deadlifted boulders. Of course, in the old days, things were less mechanized and transportation was by boat or horse, which meant even more exercise. If you were a farmer or smith, you even had more physical labor.

Its just that today, people are soft.

[Dale Dugas]

"there is nothing wrong with being strong."

You need to train the strength as well as the technique.

Someone down the line people forgot that.

I train with a weight vest, heavy big Bagua weapons, shot puts, kettlebells, mook yee pai, cables, and bodyweight.

[mickey]

Hi chusali,

I completely agree with you. I did not say that everyone did not believe it. John Allen came forth in a public forum, IKF, and stated this. Who stood with him? Now, I am not a John Allen fan, but I do appreciate that he did take that kind of stand for the arts.

And yes, there have been traditional schools that did weight training. Oftentimes, they were the ones that did serious sparring.

[Oso]

Training for mass - hypertrophy, is only ONE TYPE of ST.
If everyone would look like a BB by doing weights then there would be no need for steroids.
Fact is, you get big NOT because of doing weights but because you do weights and eat to get big.
You don't wanna get big? don't get big, it really is that easy.


lol true lightweight powerlifters and super heavys all train the same way...just the heavys eat a lot of twinkies and big macs

isn't there a relationship between weight/rep count/set count and hypertrophy?

in that training for hypertrophy specifically results in more mass but not as much an increase in strength or power vs. max strength training or power training as hypertrophy training is very different than power or max strength training...with 'max strength', 'power' & 'hypertrophy' being the 3 main subcategories of 'strength/weight/resistance' training?

Hypertrophy: increase muscle size and mass with some gain in overall strength
Max Strength: getting big pulls/lifts
Power: maximal effort over extended time periods/muscle endurance


as always, I could be wrong.

[Jimbo]

Weights are old school. John Allen was not the only one doing weight training ever. Maybe in McKwoons, they ignored this aspect.

In Southern Fist like Hung Gar, Southern Mantis and Bak Mei, barbells, rings, tiger fork, guan dao, weighted jars, dumbells, stone and iron locks, and using heavy bricks all account for weight training.

Looking at old Chinese books, you see they used weighted vests, iron balls, carried water buckets, and deadlifted boulders. Of course, in the old days, things were less mechanized and transportation was by boat or horse, which meant even more exercise. If you were a farmer or smith, you even had more physical labor.

Its just that today, people are soft.

Good points, chusauli.

A lot of the old-school practitioners also did lots of physical labor for their livelihoods, in addition to their MA training. Besides the specialized strength training for their particular art, even without that, the daily labor in itself would have produced considerable strength. I've known several men who never formally weight trained, but because of their jobs or backgrounds, were extremely strong and hard as nails. Construction workers, metal workers, etc. My father grew up on a farm and had worked on a tuna boat and was like that, too. People like that already have a level of 'gong' built in.

[Frost]

isn't there a relationship between weight/rep count/set count and hypertrophy?

in that training for hypertrophy specifically results in more mass but not as much an increase in strength or power vs. max strength training or power training as hypertrophy training is very different than power or max strength training...with 'max strength', 'power' & 'hypertrophy' being the 3 main subcategories of 'strength/weight/resistance' training?

Hypertrophy: increase muscle size and mass with some gain in overall strength
Max Strength: getting big pulls/lifts
Power: maximal effort over extended time periods/muscle endurance


as always, I could be wrong.

nope you are right but its not that clear cut (at least not to me!) in addition to the above you have to put the fuel into the body in order to get the results.

For instance whats the normal rep range for adding mass? usually people are told to lift 10 to 12 reps with 3 to 4 sets per exercise...so on and so on.....but if you ask most trainers for a weight loss programme it will look similar, maybe a slightly higher rep range 15-18 reps same amount of sets (not much different really, the only difference is in what you are told to eat, whether you are in calory surplus or deficit.

You also see weight lifters packing on size on a 5 x 5 programme (if its muscle or fat depends on what they eat)

there are optimal lifting ranges for each of the catagories you listed but its not clear cut, for instance westside has their powerlifters doing high reps hypers and tricep work to bring up their strength, defranco and his guys if they want to get athletes more explosive they get them stronger first before they get explosive...guys like arnold build the size in their early years with heavy deadlifts, squats and bench presses and then moved to higher rep stuff..........

[sanjuro_ronin]

To expand on Frost's post, we are all individuals and while MOST programs work for most people, they tend to work in a 6-8 week ratio, that is why almost anyone can get a god result form almost any system.

Some studies have shown that the 25 rep range is ideal for mass and strength building, be it a 5 x 5 or whatever, though almost all systems have been shown to do what they claim in that above mentioned time frame.

IN a nut shell, to get big, you must be doing a "mass" program AND have the proper diet.
Building Stength without mass is actually easier than adding GOOD mass, adding fat is always easy, LOL !
I do tend to laugh when people say they don't wanna look like bodybuilders, as if the typical person has the genetics or training dedication to look like that ( not to mention the drug help).

Fact is, every athlete does a type of ST and MA is/was and shoudl be NO different.

[Frost]

most people like to think they are unique, and need a special training programme be it the unqiue kung fu set, the spec ial soviet training program or what ever.......but the fact of the matter is that for 90% of the population the basics will work fine, as paul said you need to mix it up every couple of months but its a basic comncept people have followed for years: lift heavy for strength, moderate high reps for endurance and size, do basic cardio and add explosive stuff, anaerobic stuff on the end if you have the base and if you need it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

most people like to think they are unique, and need a special training programme be it the unqiue kung fu set, the spec ial soviet training program or what ever.......but the fact of the matter is that for 90% of the population the basics will work fine, as paul said you need to mix it up every couple of months but its a basic comncept people have followed for years: lift heavy for strength, moderate high reps for endurance and size, do basic cardio and add explosive stuff, anaerobic stuff on the end if you have the base and if you need it.

Correct, and with some hard work you can llok just like me in my uber sexiness !!

[Frost]

Correct, and with some hard work you can llok just like me in my uber sexiness !!

that picture just undoes all your good posting on here:eek::eek::eek:

Now HW108 has more ammo to say you are not authentic TCMA guy as they never show of their guns :)

[mickey]

sanjuro ronin,

You have a healthy build. But.....why the mask?


mickey

[Dale Dugas]

http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv155/Boston_Baguazhang/IMGP1613.jpg

you need the got qi shirt and ink to make it work better Paul.

[sanjuro_ronin]

sanjuro ronin,

You have a healthy build. But.....why the mask?


mickey

What ???


you need the got qi shirt and ink to make it work better Paul.

I don't do tattoos, sorry.

[Dale Dugas]

it was a joke, brother.....

I do have a nice naked tattoo of Li Kuei on my thigh, he did go to battle naked.

[sanjuro_ronin]

it was a joke, brother.....

I do have a nice naked tattoo of Li Kuei on my thigh, he did go to battle naked.

I think tattoos are awesome dude, love the great artwork, but they are not for me.

[Dale Dugas]

its all good brother.

[Jimbo]

Shuai Jiao master Tong Zhongyi had several photos of him doing muscle poses in a 1930s book. And I have another book in storage somewhere that was originally from the 1920s and written/posed by Wan Laisheng (master of tzuran men, or 'natural style'). In it, he also did some muscle-type poses.

They were showing the benefits of their training to inspire a new image, one of vigor and health, so others would train and dispel the 'sick man' image.

[Oso]

hmmm...if those are 'guns'...ya'll are tempting me to take a pic...and that would be ghey... ; )

and Gene might ban me for posting too much ugly all at once :p


back to the side topic: yea...anyone just starting is going to benefit from whatever they are doing if there is some sort of progression/schedule...and switching up is certainly necessary.

one of the hilarious things about CF is that while the coaches spout 'random' all the time, as they have been getting ready for the sectionals & regionals, they have totally been adopting a more regular pattern to their workouts...but they don't really talk about it...

i still need to understand 'periodization' better.

[Frost]

hmmm...if those are 'guns'...ya'll are tempting me to take a pic...and that would be ghey... ; )

and Gene might ban me for posting too much ugly all at once :p


back to the side topic: yea...anyone just starting is going to benefit from whatever they are doing if there is some sort of progression/schedule...and switching up is certainly necessary.

one of the hilarious things about CF is that while the coaches spout 'random' all the time, as they have been getting ready for the sectionals & regionals, they have totally been adopting a more regular pattern to their workouts...but they don't really talk about it...

i still need to understand 'periodization' better.

just typed a long ass response on periodization then realised it has so many meaning to so many people it was pointless:)

when you say it what do you mean, what are you looking to train and need to peridise?

[mickey]

sanjuro ronin,

It was a joke.

mickey

[sanjuro_ronin]

sanjuro ronin,

It was a joke.

mickey

You lack chi.


And the humour gene :p

;)

[Oso]

just typed a long ass response on periodization then realised it has so many meaning to so many people it was pointless:)

when you say it what do you mean, what are you looking to train and need to peridise?

i dunno :D
besides, that discussion would be totally Off Topic.

[Frost]

i dunno :D
besides, that discussion would be totally Off Topic.

lol this is kung fu forums, everything is off topic :)

look up block periodization over th 8weeksout, or elite fitness they are good sources on the subject

[Oso]

cool, thanks.

[B.Tunks]

Mainly during taken the 60's:

http://www.mantisboxing.com/Photos/Kang_Zhiqiang_in_his_prime.JPG
http://www.mantisboxing.com/Photos/The_physique_of_a_traditional_mantis_boxer.JPG
http://www.mantisboxing.com/Photos/Kang_age_17.JPG
http://www.mantisboxing.com/Photos/Gong%20Zonggong.JPG
http://www.mantisboxing.com/Photos/Qiu%20Fangjian.JPG
http://www.mantisboxing.com/Photos/Young%20Kang%20Free%20Fighting%20with%20Xu%20Maogu i%20.JPG

They definitely did weight training (obviously alongside substantial amounts of bodyweight excercise/calisthenics). Pretty primitive stuff by today's standards, but lots of stone lock and even bench work.

Photos of my older uncles and Shiye from 1920's-50's all showed similar physiques (some even much more developed). This is/was very common for most Shandong boxing families though.

BT

[Oso]

nice, Tunks!. Especially the last...when/where was that?


maybe this was mentioned above and I missed it but: what about the availability of good protein? the phrase was coined during the latter 1800's/early 1900's, right? And probably by 'upper class' people with access to good or better diets. AFAIK, most people everywhere on the planet, esp. poorer folks, didn't eat meat every day.

[B.Tunks]

nice, Tunks!. Especially the last...when/where was that?

Oso,

That was in Qingdao - either just before or right at the start of the cultural revolution. Kang was in the army for a few years and it was a demonstration sanda bout (if I remember correctly, for students starting national service).

BT