TCMA reality - MIA

[lkfmdc]

When I get a moment, less and less now as the school grows so big, I read the board here. Honestly, it depresses me (sorry Gene) because more and more the reality of what TCMA was is missing in action (MIA)

A few of us on here apparently still have had contact with the "old timers" and may have actually trained in a Chinatown and seen first hand what really was going on

But I know at least one person who DID that and yet their posts still spew the kool-aid infected drivel that frauds are selling the stupid :mad:

I think in a few years, all that will be left is this "new age" kung fu, out of the kung fu movie box, with wushu razzle dazzle, kung fu TV series fake philosophy and la-la larping

I must say the only thing that gives me hope is Kennedy's books, which unfortunately the trols will never read :o

[sanjuro_ronin]

Brian's stuff is excellent, both of them.
But you do have a point.
Thing is, YOU are as much to blame as everyone else.
Why you ask?
because you DIDN'T open a practical Kung fu school did you? nope, you opened up a "kick boxing gym".
Sorry bro, but you took the easy and profitable way out and in dong so, are as much to blame as others.
Sure your MA is practical, no doubt.
Look at Mike, he is passing on TCMA in a practical way.

Don't mean to bust your balls and you know I love your kosher ass ( in a non-spartan way), but I do have a point, don't I?

[GeneChing]

...especially if you're the one who's depressed. You should be Happy. There wasn't a dwarf named Weepy, was there? :D

[David Jamieson]

pwned by Paul.... :D

[Dragonzbane76]

must say the only thing that gives me hope is Kennedy's books, which unfortunately the trols will never read

what is this book you speak of? seriously i might pick it up if I can find it.

No need to be depressed. We all look at the past and say, "wow them were the good ol' days" just the facts of life, things change, for better or worse they change. :)

[Dale Dugas]

http://www.amazon.com/Jingwu-School-that-Transformed-Kung/dp/1583942424/ref=pd_sim_b_2

[Dragonzbane76]

thanks. :)

[KC Elbows]

Brian's stuff is excellent, both of them.
But you do have a point.
Thing is, YOU are as much to blame as everyone else.
Why you ask?
because you DIDN'T open a practical Kung fu school did you? nope, you opened up a "kick boxing gym".
Sorry bro, but you took the easy and profitable way out and in dong so, are as much to blame as others.
Sure your MA is practical, no doubt.
Look at Mike, he is passing on TCMA in a practical way.

Don't mean to bust your balls and you know I love your kosher ass ( in a non-spartan way), but I do have a point, don't I?

I can name ten people on here who were inspired by you and others to modernize their approach. All have wider experience due to it, and are becoming better fighters. And are just started at it, but are at the cusp of being sifus(or already are), and are better for it.

Comments like these above are cutting their legs out from under them as well. If you're not reading the forum that much, odds are you're not in a position to comment on it much, either.

[Lucas]

I'll own up to being one of those people. There is definately a core of individuals on this forum whos advice/experience I read closely and consider heavily.

[KC Elbows]

Yes, I've become more and more aware of the other guys in the same boat as me, and it's not a bad boat. Sure, it's got its tools, but they're just there in case we run out of sirloin to feed us on the journey.

[SevenStar]

I'll own up to being one of those people. There is definately a core of individuals on this forum whos advice/experience I read closely and consider heavily.


definitely. There are people here whose posts I look forward to, because you know something insightful will be in it.

[Lucas]

Yep, its pretty much the only reason I continue coming here....that and the witty repertoire.

:D

[Scott R. Brown]

I think in a few years, all that will be left is this "new age" kung fu, out of the kung fu movie box, with wushu razzle dazzle, kung fu TV series fake philosophy and la-la larping

In a few more years THIS will be traditional kung fu because tradition is nothing more that something that has been done for a long period of time!:eek:

[taai gihk yahn]

In a few more years THIS will be traditional kung fu because tradition is nothing more that something that has been done for a long period of time!:eek:

yes, pretty soon we'll be distinctulating between traditional across-the-street stalking and new-fangled, cross-streeting, mixed-modern-stalking with no respect for how the old-timers did it...

[Scott R. Brown]

yes, pretty soon we'll be distinctulating between traditional across-the-street stalking and new-fangled, cross-streeting, mixed-modern-stalking with no respect for how the old-timers did it...

YEAH!!!!! What's that all about??? Kids these days! They just don't know proper stalk......er.....I mean surveillance technique!!!!!

Its because of all these new Mc-surveillance schools in every strip mall down the street making you sign contracts and offering Dora the explorer maps and backpacks and monkeys and stuff like that!

[TenTigers]

y'know, when I was in fourth grade, I had a crush on Andrea Morgan. I used to follow her home from school, or ride my bike past her house every day hoping for a glimpse of her, sometimes I would wait a few houses away and watch her.
That was considered cute.
Now, all of a sudden, it's stalking!

Of course, a 53 yr-old guy on a bicycle sitting outside Andrea Morgan's house is kinda...
kinda...
well let's just say,
it probably isn't that cute anymore.

[mooyingmantis]

When I get a moment, less and less now as the school grows so big, I read the board here. Honestly, it depresses me (sorry Gene) because more and more the reality of what TCMA was is missing in action (MIA)

A few of us on here apparently still have had contact with the "old timers" and may have actually trained in a Chinatown and seen first hand what really was going on

But I know at least one person who DID that and yet their posts still spew the kool-aid infected drivel that frauds are selling the stupid :mad:

I think in a few years, all that will be left is this "new age" kung fu, out of the kung fu movie box, with wushu razzle dazzle, kung fu TV series fake philosophy and la-la larping

I must say the only thing that gives me hope is Kennedy's books, which unfortunately the trols will never read :o

You base your opinions on reading this forum???? :eek:
Perhaps you should get out and see what is really out there. This forum is not necessarily indicative of what is really going on in the world.

[taai gihk yahn]

YEAH!!!!! What's that all about??? Kids these days! They just don't know proper stalk......er.....I mean surveillance technique!!!!!

Its because of all these new Mc-surveillance schools in every strip mall down the street making you sign contracts and offering Dora the explorer maps and backpacks and monkeys and stuff like that!

admittedly, the monkeys made it impossible not to sign up :o

[taai gihk yahn]

y'know, when I was in fourth grade, I had a crush on Andrea Morgan. I used to follow her home from school, or ride my bike past her house every day hoping for a glimpse of her, sometimes I would wait a few houses away and watch her.
That was considered cute.
Now, all of a sudden, it's stalking!

Of course, a 53 yr-old guy on a bicycle sitting outside Andrea Morgan's house is kinda...
kinda...
well let's just say,
it probably isn't that cute anymore.

hey, just remember, nothing says "I love you" like a restraining order...

[lkfmdc]

Brian's stuff is excellent, both of them.
But you do have a point.
Thing is, YOU are as much to blame as everyone else.
Why you ask?
because you DIDN'T open a practical Kung fu school did you? nope, you opened up a "kick boxing gym".
Sorry bro, but you took the easy and profitable way out and in dong so, are as much to blame as others.
Sure your MA is practical, no doubt.
Look at Mike, he is passing on TCMA in a practical way.

Don't mean to bust your balls and you know I love your kosher ass ( in a non-spartan way), but I do have a point, don't I?

We ran an old school (ie fighting based) kung fu school called "Lama Kung Fu" in NYC for almost 9 years, and that was "way back" in the 80's/early 90's (I think the situation has gotten worse recently). With "kung fu" on the door we got wackos, nut jobs, weirdos, but mostly people who wanted to learn forms, didn't want to work hard and didn't want to fight.

Curriculum wise, very little of what I do has changed... the fact I dropped the "kung fu"name unfortunately got me the students who could actually do the material

[bawang]

i thikn i understand u mang. getting these ppls for years and years must wears u down and make u dperessed. but new york is a huge city with many people, thats the best place to make a difference for kung fu. i think there must be a way

i think traditional kung fu need is to stop teaching forms. its meaningless all vanity. for what?

we need to make a traditional organiztion to actively promote real kung fu. we need to go public and openly challenge fake kung fu and educate peopel.

traditionally its viewed as evil and treason

[Scott R. Brown]

y'know, when I was in fourth grade, I had a crush on Andrea Morgan. I used to follow her home from school, or ride my bike past her house every day hoping for a glimpse of her, sometimes I would wait a few houses away and watch her.
That was considered cute.
Now, all of a sudden, it's stalking!

Of course, a 53 yr-old guy on a bicycle sitting outside Andrea Morgan's house is kinda...
kinda...
well let's just say,
it probably isn't that cute anymore.

THAT is not the question......the question is, "Is SHE still cute????"

If so, then who cares what the police and neighbors think.....just tell them, "What's good enough for Britney Spears is good enough for Andrea Morgan!", then show them your paparazzi credentials and it will all be fine!:)

[Scott R. Brown]

admittedly, the monkeys made it impossible not to sign up :o

Yeah... you say that now....but wait til they start slinging poo while you are trying to remain, unobtrusive, or start humping your leg right when you are about to pull the trigger.....er....I mean take a surveillance picture!:mad:

[SevenStar]

We ran an old school (ie fighting based) kung fu school called "Lama Kung Fu" in NYC for almost 9 years, and that was "way back" in the 80's/early 90's (I think the situation has gotten worse recently). With "kung fu" on the door we got wackos, nut jobs, weirdos, but mostly people who wanted to learn forms, didn't want to work hard and didn't want to fight.

Curriculum wise, very little of what I do has changed... the fact I dropped the "kung fu"name unfortunately got me the students who could actually do the material

you're still teaching forms and weapons?

[KC Elbows]

we need to make a traditional organiztion to actively promote real kung fu. we need to go public and openly challenge fake kung fu and educate peopel.


I almost entirely agree, aside from worrying at all about the fakes. To take away time for training for that is a waste, imo, and to focus skills gained from that work on fakes with no skill at all is a further waste that does nothing to reform our kung fu and does little to stop the fakes.

[yutyeesam]

i thikn i understand u mang. getting these ppls for years and years must wears u down and make u dperessed. but new york is a huge city with many people, thats the best place to make a difference for kung fu. i think there must be a way

i think traditional kung fu need is to stop teaching forms. its meaningless all vanity. for what?

we need to make a traditional organiztion to actively promote real kung fu. we need to go public and openly challenge fake kung fu and educate peopel.

traditionally its viewed as evil and treason

Why bother? It's the old masters fault for having open door and closed door students. Naturally the open door students are going to spread it widely. Not much we can do about that...so why bother?

[taai gihk yahn]

I almost entirely agree, aside from worrying at all about the fakes. To take away time for training for that is a waste, imo, and to focus skills gained from that work on fakes with no skill at all is a further waste that does nothing to reform our kung fu and does little to stop the fakes.

this is it in a nutshell - the problem is that even with good quality control, kungfu "skill" is something that is easy to fake to the general public, because of the ethos surrounding it; as such, you can make it look "good" on the outside, between dancing forms that look flowery and "kung-fuey" (all you realy need to do is a bunch of odd-looking movements that you call kung-fu - to wit, Shaolin Do), or a do some "qigong", which is nothing more than physics and practiced "tricks" (meaning that there may be some skill to puling them off, but not the one you are claiming, in terms of "qi" development); or you can toss your hypmotized students across the room because you've trained them subliminaly to do that;

that, and all the fortune cookie BS that puts the average person into a state of uncertainty: old saws like, "a true fighter doesn't have to fight / prove anything", "I can only demonstrate "x" deadly technique on long-term students who are able to handle it", "our technique is too deadly to be practised against resisting opponents", "the advanced stuff is secret", "I can't reveal my lineage because of 'x'", "it takes 10/20/30/100 yrs. to become an effective fighter w/this, but once you do, you can defeat anyone", "our power doesn't come from muscle but from internal power", and so on, in a way cannot be judged adequately by most people in the US, because they have no context beyond what they see in movies / on TV, and since it's the same silliness there, they kinda think that's how it should be; or it's how they WANT it to be, because they are looking for something super-secret and special, and so they are easy prey for sifus who spew that sort of nonsense (and many take it very seriously, so it's blind leading bind)

[lkfmdc]

you're still teaching forms and weapons?

Forms are just collections of techniques (and if you learned them properly, concepts) - I dont' teach the forms, but I still teach everything (that works) from thos forms

As for the weapons, yes indeed.... we can beat your arse in an MMA cage and with a staff :D

[PHILBERT]

hey, just remember, nothing says "I love you" like a restraining order...

That's what my last gf thinks apparently after I said if she keeps sending me creepy text messages from other peoples phones, I will get one.

Nothing more romantic than a female who says "I will say anything just to see you again."

[KC Elbows]

this is it in a nutshell - the problem is that even with good quality control, kungfu "skill" is something that is easy to fake to the general public, because of the ethos surrounding it; as such, you can make it look "good" on the outside, between dancing forms that look flowery and "kung-fuey" (all you realy need to do is a bunch of odd-looking movements that you call kung-fu - to wit, Shaolin Do), or a do some "qigong", which is nothing more than physics and practiced "tricks" (meaning that there may be some skill to puling them off, but not the one you are claiming, in terms of "qi" development); or you can toss your hypmotized students across the room because you've trained them subliminaly to do that;

that, and all the fortune cookie BS that puts the average person into a state of uncertainty: old saws like, "a true fighter doesn't have to fight / prove anything", "I can only demonstrate "x" deadly technique on long-term students who are able to handle it", "our technique is too deadly to be practised against resisting opponents", "the advanced stuff is secret", "I can't reveal my lineage because of 'x'", "it takes 10/20/30/100 yrs. to become an effective fighter w/this, but once you do, you can defeat anyone", "our power doesn't come from muscle but from internal power", and so on, in a way cannot be judged adequately by most people in the US, because they have no context beyond what they see in movies / on TV, and since it's the same silliness there, they kinda think that's how it should be; or it's how they WANT it to be, because they are looking for something super-secret and special, and so they are easy prey for sifus who spew that sort of nonsense (and many take it very seriously, so it's blind leading bind)

Precisely. And, given that such people don't want combat skills and the torture that builds them, they seek out what they're really after, be it a workout, or a feeling of superiority, or a feeling of spirituality, or something more like Amway.

For the most part, the fakes aren't stealing students from legitimate guys. The few die hard ma lovers who make the mistake of joining will someday find better. To focus on the fakes is a waste of time because it doesn't provide those die hards a place to practice what they are really wanting to do. Providing more quality kung fu schools does, and quality training methods make the odds of there being more quality stuff out there much higher.

[cerebus]

I don't think reality is necessarily missing from the traditional Chinese arts altogether, just from a sadly large proportion of them.

I've always been a traditionalist myself. And I've been a traditional Chinese Internal Arts practitioner since '02, and specialized exclusively in Tai Chi Chuan since '08. I'm now 40 years old and I still step into the full contact ring and fight guys half my age (most recently just about 3 weeks ago). And I know how to teach what I've been taught and develop the same skills in others. Unfortunately there aren't many people who actually want to undergo fight training, they'd rather just do form and push-hands...

[MightyB]

Side note about weirdos...

The Judo club was filled with people who must've fallen off the bus on the way to the circus last night. There's no honor in beating up 'tards. Boring night.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

No matter how many fakes are rooted out, there will be another to take his place. It is a waste of time, unless they are filling ignorant people's heads with garbage and brainwashing them into believing they are elite fighters when they are nothing more than form fairies. But believe it or not I think most form fairies know they are that and don't claim to teach or produce strong fighters. Depends on the context of what the person is teaching.

[David Jamieson]

y'know, when I was in fourth grade, I had a crush on Andrea Morgan. I used to follow her home from school, or ride my bike past her house every day hoping for a glimpse of her, sometimes I would wait a few houses away and watch her.
That was considered cute.
Now, all of a sudden, it's stalking!

Of course, a 53 yr-old guy on a bicycle sitting outside Andrea Morgan's house is kinda...
kinda...
well let's just say,
it probably isn't that cute anymore.

You forgot to tell everybody that last year was when you were in fourth grade. :D

[KC Elbows]

I've never known one contemporary wushu teacher who claimed or wanted his or her students to believe that they were becoming combat machines.

[lkfmdc]

I've never known one contemporary wushu teacher who claimed or wanted his or her students to believe that they were becoming combat machines.

but almost ALL the forms fairies DO think they are learning deadly techniques. sorry it's true!

[David Jamieson]

i thikn i understand u mang. getting these ppls for years and years must wears u down and make u dperessed. but new york is a huge city with many people, thats the best place to make a difference for kung fu. i think there must be a way

i think traditional kung fu need is to stop teaching forms. its meaningless all vanity. for what?

we need to make a traditional organiztion to actively promote real kung fu. we need to go public and openly challenge fake kung fu and educate peopel.

traditionally its viewed as evil and treason

People can take what's in the forms and still work with that. It will produce.
I think people do that now anyway and more all the time.
The world is fast becoming empty of old traditions, and not, at the same time. In a lot of ways they are being repackaged to suit a new set of desires.

[KC Elbows]

but almost ALL the forms fairies DO think they are learning deadly techniques. sorry it's true!

I'm not saying it isn't at all.

Let's put this another way.

Again, I can name at least ten people on here who are new sifus or on the cusp of becoming sifus who have been positively impacted by info you shared(when you weren't trolling). Who have better, more notaqble kung fu because of it.

Whereas you are saying that all your efforts to fight the bad kung fu have been fruitless.

So, focusing on improving kung fu, you improved it, focusing on fighting the tards, you've mostly been arguing with tards. sorry, it's true!:D

[lkfmdc]

I never troll... post nude pics of Gene Ching, yes, a few Shaolin Taco (tm) tributes, but never troll!

[KC Elbows]

I apologize. I meant to say when you were facetiously manufacturing flame wars. In between the shaolin taco pics and --shudder--posting the naked Gene Ching pics.

[MasterKiller]

Again, I can name at least ten people on here who are new sifus or on the cusp of becoming sifus who have been positively impacted by info you shared(when you weren't trolling). Who have better, more notaqble kung fu because of it.

Whereas you are saying that all your efforts to fight the bad kung fu have been fruitless.

http://c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/9/l_9ddcd9f16b0d494d8f0bc053124dfd60.jpg

[KC Elbows]

http://c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/9/l_9ddcd9f16b0d494d8f0bc053124dfd60.jpg

Is that one of your guys, MK? Or Ross's? Either case, cool stuff. Proves my point, really. He didn't get that belt arguing with Temple Kung Fu guys.

If he did, where's mine?

[lkfmdc]

I apologize. I meant to say when you were facetiously manufacturing flame wars. In between the shaolin taco pics and --shudder--posting the naked Gene Ching pics.

You love Gene, you know you do....

[KC Elbows]

You love Gene, you know you do....

Why is the left mouse click so easy to achieve!:(

[MasterKiller]

Is that one of your guys, MK? Or Ross's? Either case, cool stuff. Proves my point, really. He didn't get that belt arguing with Temple Kung Fu guys.

If he did, where's mine?

My student, currently 10-3 pro record. His last fight in Tulsa was shown on HDNet. :)

[KC Elbows]

My student, currently 10-3 pro record. His last fight in Tulsa was shown on HDNet. :)

Mucho congratulations. That's awesome.

[bawang]

I almost entirely agree, aside from worrying at all about the fakes. To take away time for training for that is a waste, imo, and to focus skills gained from that work on fakes with no skill at all is a further waste that does nothing to reform our kung fu and does little to stop the fakes.
i disagree. i think because of their illegitimate nature, they promote alot more than legitimate ppls. we need to fite them actively

sanda doesnt discourage traditional frauds. competition and tradition need to become one again not separate


Why bother? It's the old masters fault for having open door and closed door students. Naturally the open door students are going to spread it widely. Not much we can do about that...so why bother?

justice

[Yum Cha]

but almost ALL the forms fairies DO think they are learning deadly techniques. sorry it's true!

I think to be a forms fairy, you HAVE to believe this, so fair enough.

I think more generously, you could say that some people think that learning the forms is learning the style, in its completeness, and of course, then many come away disappointed.

Forms have become a currency because you can put a monetary value on them, thus more is better, in some circles. Forms mean rank in some styles as well. Not to mention all the 'marketing' that goes on concerning forms. They are also the differentiating point between eastern and western MA (for the most part) and thus have a mysterious nature to them for some people.

Forms are just intermediate training, or in some instances, amusement for old men in pursuit of a healthy lifestyle. But, I don't think any good, old school, traditional martial artist confuses a roadmap with a destination.

I think that is what it all boils down to, forms are intermediate training, when people think they are the end-all, they come up wanting.

[Yum Cha]

Oh yea, congrats to MK for fostering such a strong student.

Can you give us some insight on how long have you worked with him? How did you help him? Was there anything you tried that was a failure?

[bawang]

Forms have become a currency because you can put a monetary value on them

this is the problem

[MasterKiller]

Oh yea, congrats to MK for fostering such a strong student.

Can you give us some insight on how long have you worked with him? How did you help him? Was there anything you tried that was a failure?

He's been training for a little over 2 1/2 years. He was a good wrestler when he started with me, but had absolutely no stand up and no jiu-jitsu. Because he was already capable on the ground, we first worked his ground skills with the intention that he could just take people down and work the points/submissions from there, which worked for a little while. But after he'd won a few, his opponents started getting tougher and he had a couple of fights where he actually got dominated on the ground. So, we started re-emphasizing his stand up skills. After a couple of bumps, he's managed to become pretty well-rounded.

And after 13 pro fights, his intent is piercing. Everyone who fights this kid knows they were in a fight.

[Lokhopkuen]

http://kungfusweden.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/kung-fu-woman.gif

[Lokhopkuen]

http://www.3wishes.com/images/kungfucutie-d.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

We ran an old school (ie fighting based) kung fu school called "Lama Kung Fu" in NYC for almost 9 years, and that was "way back" in the 80's/early 90's (I think the situation has gotten worse recently). With "kung fu" on the door we got wackos, nut jobs, weirdos, but mostly people who wanted to learn forms, didn't want to work hard and didn't want to fight.

Curriculum wise, very little of what I do has changed... the fact I dropped the "kung fu"name unfortunately got me the students who could actually do the material

I know where you are coming from and I feel for you and others that tried and were unwilling to compromise and so had to go another route.
I've been there and seen it too.
BUT, it was a choice you made to "turn your back" on TCMA and go a different direction and that was your right.
In my area every single public kung fu school is a typical, commercial school eith very minor light sparring.
Anyone wanna do full contact must join a MT, MMA or boxing gym.
Most of the people in those kung fu gyms don't wanna be fighters, but somehow THINK they can beat people that train as fighters.
The only "realistic" ones are the Taiji guys that just d it for fun and health.
That said, in almost every kung fu school you will find a few guys that like to rumble.
But any sifu counting on that would quickly go out of business I think.
Oh many still do the bag work and mitt work, in their own little world, but they rarely fight.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I can name ten people on here who were inspired by you and others to modernize their approach. All have wider experience due to it, and are becoming better fighters. And are just started at it, but are at the cusp of being sifus(or already are), and are better for it.

Comments like these above are cutting their legs out from under them as well. If you're not reading the forum that much, odds are you're not in a position to comment on it much, either.

I agree that David's views about modernizing TCMA are great and worthwhile, that wasn't the point of my critique, if it can even be viewed as that.
Yes there is a lot of crap in the MA world, even now after the UFC and Vale Tudo and MMA matches that have shown the 'deadly" to be far from that, but WHY is that?
The proof is out there so why are people NOT getting it?
One of the reasons is that those with a traditional Hand, for lack of a better word, aren't showing AND making clear that the tradition is fighting and NOT Forms, that the tradition is practical basic not fantasy fu, that the tradition is learn fast, be good quickly and perfect over a lifetime, it is NOT "10 years to learn to use it".
And, while I love Dave for all he is and has done for TCMA and all he tries to do as he sometimes looks like the lone man "wailing against the wind", the fact is the Dave teaches MT and KB more than he teaches TCMA.
This is NOT a bad thing mind you, but it isn't TCMA.

I know I am sounding critical of Dave but I hope he and others understand what I am trying to say.

[Frost]

I agree that David's views about modernizing TCMA are great and worthwhile, that wasn't the point of my critique, if it can even be viewed as that.
Yes there is a lot of crap in the MA world, even now after the UFC and Vale Tudo and MMA matches that have shown the 'deadly" to be far from that, but WHY is that?
The proof is out there so why are people NOT getting it?
One of the reasons is that those with a traditional Hand, for lack of a better word, aren't showing AND making clear that the tradition is fighting and NOT Forms, that the tradition is practical basic not fantasy fu, that the tradition is learn fast, be good quickly and perfect over a lifetime, it is NOT "10 years to learn to use it".
And, while I love Dave for all he is and has done for TCMA and all he tries to do as he sometimes looks like the lone man "wailing against the wind", the fact is the Dave teaches MT and KB more than he teaches TCMA.
This is NOT a bad thing mind you, but it isn't TCMA.

I know I am sounding critical of Dave but I hope he and others understand what I am trying to say.

People like dave that have shown that traditional hand have found its not wanted by those that come to the kung fu schools. My first master came from such a background...from talking to his original students and to him he only taught a handful of sets in the beginning: one of which taught the ging powers, another which taught the correct formation and usage of the PE fist and a few others, all apart from the 8 ging/powers set were very short forms and most of the class was conditioning and sparring (heavy contact at that.. He was known for producing full contact and semi contact fighters who competed all over the world and his squad never lost a major competition anywhere.

Fast forward a few decades and now there are lots more forms to learn, and the original forms are longer and more complicated...and there is less sparring...why ?because this is what people wanted and as he handed over more and more to his senior students this is what they gave their students (his fighters by and large left to go other routes most into kickboxing lol)

People dont really want the fighting aspect from kung fu, and fighters now that were attracted to kung fu and karate in the 60's and 70's now avoid it and go the the MMA gyms...sad but true

[Iron_Eagle_76]

One of the problems is the fact that pretty much any full contact martial art seems to fall into the class of Muay Thai, Kickboxing, MMA, or boxing. That is the truth of it. If I teach a traditional Kung Fu class that encompasses hard basics, stance training, two man sets, ect. but also do bag and mitt work and spar hard with head gear, boxing gloves and shin guards, it will be called kickboxing.

I don't believe this to be true, but the fact of the matter is even the so called traditional folks say "Oh, you don't teach Kung Fu anymore, it's just kickboxing". Which I'm sorry to say, is complete Bull Sh**t.

I have trained with enough kickboxers to know the difference when someone has trained in Kung Fu and someone has trained exclusively kickboxing. I have trained with enough Thai folks to know that are certain techniques, mainly side thrust and side teep, that they do not train and are not efficient at as a Kung Fu or Sanda player. The point is you don't have to wear silk pajamas and prance around like a ballerina on crack to be a Kung Fu fighter.

Personally I don't give a sh**t about people not believing in Kung Fu or telling me I am a "glorified kickboxer". Generic labels are all these are, nothing more, nothing less. What I do I will call Kung Fu and if idiots what to argue over the semantics of what it is they can. But I believe we as practioners of TCMA need to stop ******ing in each other's cheerios and do what the art was meant to do.

[Yao Sing]

Most of the people in those kung fu gyms don't wanna be fighters, but somehow THINK they can beat people that train as fighters.

Is this your opinion or have you actually interviewed people at Kung Fu gyms?

The reason I ask is that everyone likes to rant against certain stereotypes whether the really exist, exist in a small minority or don't exist at all. What you claim above is a myth.

I believe the average KF hobbyist doesn't expect anything more than being able to handle himself against a mugger or street punk looking for trouble.

I remember someone posted a long time ago about seeing some hippy type Tai Chi players practicing in a park. He said he silently shook his head at those poors souls who are believing themselves to be deadly fighters. Did he approach them and ask if they beleived they were training to be fighters? Of course not. It was all in his head. They were probably just training for health, nothing more.

So for everyone to rant against all these KF schools turning out students who think they can tear up fight focused students of MMA or Kickboxing schools just plays into a fantasy land when we're all supposed to be getting away from fantasy lands and back to reality.

Unless I'm wrong and you have some documented proof of your above statement.

[Yao Sing]

People like dave that have shown that traditional hand have found its not wanted by those that come to the kung fu schools. My first master came from such a background...from talking to his original students and to him he only taught a handful of sets in the beginning: one of which taught the ging powers, another which taught the correct formation and usage of the PE fist and a few others, all apart from the 8 ging/powers set were very short forms and most of the class was conditioning and sparring (heavy contact at that.. He was known for producing full contact and semi contact fighters who competed all over the world and his squad never lost a major competition anywhere.

Fast forward a few decades and now there are lots more forms to learn, and the original forms are longer and more complicated...and there is less sparring...why ?because this is what people wanted and as he handed over more and more to his senior students this is what they gave their students (his fighters by and large left to go other routes most into kickboxing lol)

People dont really want the fighting aspect from kung fu, and fighters now that were attracted to kung fu and karate in the 60's and 70's now avoid it and go the the MMA gyms...sad but true

Now THIS hits the nail squarely on the head.

[David Jamieson]

I know where you are coming from and I feel for you and others that tried and were unwilling to compromise and so had to go another route.
I've been there and seen it too.
BUT, it was a choice you made to "turn your back" on TCMA and go a different direction and that was your right.
In my area every single public kung fu school is a typical, commercial school eith very minor light sparring.
Anyone wanna do full contact must join a MT, MMA or boxing gym.
Most of the people in those kung fu gyms don't wanna be fighters, but somehow THINK they can beat people that train as fighters.
The only "realistic" ones are the Taiji guys that just d it for fun and health.
That said, in almost every kung fu school you will find a few guys that like to rumble.
But any sifu counting on that would quickly go out of business I think.
Oh many still do the bag work and mitt work, in their own little world, but they rarely fight.

I completely agree with and somewhat resemble the remark in as much as I am not active in a school or running a school or anything like that. Nor do I train for competitive fighting venues and these days hard banging is rare.

But, I don't think what I do is bad for me or the others and I certainly don't hold any delusions of grandeur about what I can or cannot do against a trained professional fighter. Not without once again finding a reason to do so and then training specifically towards that. :p

But I enjoy practice still. Keeps the boners happening. :D

[Drake]

I study because I like CLF.

In real fights, I still prefer the choke-slam. It works.

[lkfmdc]

the fact is the Dave teaches MT and KB more than he teaches TCMA.
This is NOT a bad thing mind you, but it isn't TCMA.



I have a lot of friends who are legit Muay Thai guys. Many have lived and trained in Thailand. They will be the first person to tell you that we dont' do Muay Thai. Not in the way we punch, our footwork, what kicks we use, HOW we use them, etc...

I honestly think it is why we do so well in Muay Thai, we have comparable but not exactly teh same skills....

I may not be doing forms, or "line basics" but is that really what CMA is about?

[KC Elbows]

I have a lot of friends who are legit Muay Thai guys. Many have lived and trained in Thailand. They will be the first person to tell you that we dont' do Muay Thai. Not in the way we punch, our footwork, what kicks we use, HOW we use them, etc...

I honestly think it is why we do so well in Muay Thai, we have comparable but not exactly teh same skills....

I may not be doing forms, or "line basics" but is that really what CMA is about?

So, you admit you don't even do glorified kickboxing?:eek:

[Dragonzbane76]

So, you admit you don't even do glorified kickboxing?

gasp..............SAY IT AIN'T SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO...NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
:):D:p

[taai gihk yahn]

So, you admit you don't even do glorified kickboxing?:eek:

Dave's system, if in fact we can call it that, is so over-cross-trained, his kickbxing doesn't even qualify as glorified anymore;

seriously though, as I was around in the "old days" (late '80s-eary '90s), and knowing what we trained with Dave and how we rained it, and now seeing what he is doing in the name of Sanda, it's a short stone's throw in terms of how far he's actualy moved from so-called TCMA - all the principles, characteristics, etc. are actualy right there, it's just the context within which they are trained is a bit more live and pressure-oritented than it wa back then (although back then we used to regularly spar hard-contact, including kicks, strikes, locks and throws w/out pretty much any restriction, although we had a gentleman's agreement amongst us about not kicking hard to groin, knees or trying to poke each other in the eye or throat too hard or fast - it was a weird amalgam, it seemed to work...); we admittedly had no real ground game to speak of though, so we didn't spend much time there - obviously that is different now; but I chuckle when i see Dave drill stuff w/students, it "looks" like kickboxing, but I know exactly where he got a given drill in terms of TCMA origin (literaly, some of the stuff is right out of the forms, almost verbatim, you'd be surprised how well it "translates" to a contemporary context w/just a little tweaking, lol)

the difference is that by not calling it Kung FU, he doesn't get nearly the number of crazies coming to his door w/claims of d3dly kung-fueyness secretly stashed in their spehno-basilar junctions...

[lkfmdc]

as I was around in the "old days" (late '80s-eary '90s), and knowing what we trained with Dave and how we rained it, and now seeing what he is doing in the name of Sanda, it's a short stone's throw in terms of how far he's actualy moved from so-called TCMA - all the principles, characteristics, etc. are actualy right there, it's just the context within which they are trained is a bit more live and pressure-oritented than it wa back then (although back then we used to regularly spar hard-contact, including kicks, strikes, locks and throws w/out pretty much any restriction, although we had a gentleman's agreement amongst us about not kicking hard to groin, knees or trying to poke each other in the eye or throat too hard or fast - it was a weird amalgam, it seemed to work...); we admittedly had no real ground game to speak of though, so we didn't spend much time there - obviously that is different now; but I chuckle when i see Dave drill stuff w/students, it "looks" like kickboxing, but I know exactly where he got a given drill in terms of TCMA origin (literaly, some of the stuff is right out of the forms, almost verbatim, you'd be surprised how well it "translates" to a contemporary context w/just a little tweaking, lol)

the difference is that by not calling it Kung FU, he doesn't get nearly the number of crazies coming to his door w/claims of d3dly kung-fueyness secretly stashed in their spehno-basilar junctions...

This..........

[ManilaCrane]

Not talkin crap about MMA or Kickboxing or dat stuff, but i think the reason why alot of people turn to those stuff is because its probably easier to practice than kung fu.

After all, Kung Fu means "Skill attain through hard work". I mean sure, anyone can throw a punch or a kick, but it takes alot of practice and repetition to do the stuff that is in Chinese Martial arts.

[YouKnowWho]

Not talkin crap about MMA or Kickboxing or dat stuff, but i think the reason why alot of people turn to those stuff is because its probably easier to practice than kung fu.

After all, Kung Fu means "Skill attain through hard work". I mean sure, anyone can throw a punch or a kick, but it takes alot of practice and repetition to do the stuff that is in Chinese Martial arts.
The problem is TCMA has too many forms. A friend of mine had learned over 200 forms and he still want to learn more. I have learn over 50 forms in my life and I do know how much burden that can be. If you want to train it, you find out that you don't have time. If you don't train it, you feel that you may forget it. The best solution is just to record all your forms on tape and then forget about it for the rest of your life. MMA may have drills but they have no forms. When a TCMA guys is working on his form, a MMA guy already test his skill on the mat. A solid TCMA skill will take a long time to develop. Today time means money and we don't have time. An arm bar, leg bar, choke, pulling guard, jump guard don't need 10 years of development time. That's why MMA is getting popular. One day when MMA guys detect that the TCMA has many to offer, they will go back and study TCMA. The Kelly bell (it's called stone lock in ancient time) and bicycle tube (people used weight pulley in ancient time) are good examples.

IMO, TCMA is like the Chinese restaurant. It will always have customers no matter how the world will change.

[Frost]

Not talkin crap about MMA or Kickboxing or dat stuff, but i think the reason why alot of people turn to those stuff is because its probably easier to practice than kung fu.

After all, Kung Fu means "Skill attain through hard work". I mean sure, anyone can throw a punch or a kick, but it takes alot of practice and repetition to do the stuff that is in Chinese Martial arts.

lol yes you are talking crap about MMA and dat stuff, at least have the balls to admit it

Sure its much easier to take a punch to the head or get thrown on your back than it is to sit in a horse stance of practise your forms....the reason most people who want to learn to fight go to a MMA gym is because they turn out fighters and not form pansys who think what they do is better and harder than that easy MMA stuff...but who dont have the b*lls to actually step up and prove it :)

And yes its much harder to do that TCMA stuff than it is to learn a reverse triangle from side control or learn how to turn a double into a running pipe single.....

[Jorge]

Whats the difference between a Pak Sao and a Parry? There isn't any! I train KF, but if I did a pak sao against a boxer, people would say I was resorting to boxing. If I use a floating root, then its not kung fu. Fighting is Fighting! I think people get to caught up on the shaw brother flicks.

Bless,

Buby

[Drake]

lol yes you are talking crap about MMA and dat stuff, at least have the balls to admit it

Sure its much easier to take a punch to the head or get thrown on your back than it is to sit in a horse stance of practise your forms....the reason most people who want to learn to fight go to a MMA gym is because they turn out fighters and not form pansys who think what they do is better and harder than that easy MMA stuff...but who dont have the b*lls to actually step up and prove it :)

And yes its much harder to do that TCMA stuff than it is to learn a reverse triangle from side control or learn how to turn a double into a running pipe single.....

If you can do a form entirely from a horse stance, there's something inherently wrong with the form.

And drills are no different from forms. At all. Period. You can take chunks out of forms and make them drills, and I can think of at least one CLF school that does so. It is repetition of a set of movements in order to build them into muscle memory, so you don't end up trying to remember it during a time when you don't have time to remember.

This is coming from a guy who HAS to do MMA for work, and does TCMA for a pasttime. MMA has some uses, but it's not this holy revelation of fighting that has only recently been discovered. All it did (for me) was reemphasize the importance of being able to fight on the ground, and that big, muscular guys hit hard (duh).

[Jorge]

And yes its much harder to do that TCMA stuff than it is to learn a reverse triangle from side control or learn how to turn a double into a running pipe single.....

I don't think TCMA is hard to apply. The problem is not enough KF heads really pressure testing their stuff to understand what works for them and what doesn't or even how to make it work for them. I hear what your saying, but you still have the most difficult/dangerous part a head of you....talking the person down and unless you do, those moves are useless.


Bless,

Buby

[MysteriousPower]

I don't think TCMA is hard to apply. The problem is not enough KF heads really pressure testing their stuff to understand what works for them and what doesn't or even how to make it work for them. I hear what your saying, but you still have the most difficult/dangerous part a head of you....talking the person down and unless you do, those moves are useless.


Bless,

Buby


Here in lies the problem with "concept based" martial arts like tcma. The movements get "applied" in the air while doing the form and then techniques are drilled with compliant partners. In many cases the techniques "fit a particular situation" and are drilled in that situation. This leads to people knowing techniques and not technique flow. How can a teacher pull techniques out of his butt from a form and say it is practical and that everything is in the form. By doing that specific movement you are not practicing the technique and instead end up practicing what could be a technique which will not help in combat.


There is so many concepts that people just practice forms and not actual moves against resisting opponents. The techniques from forms are so situational and unrealistic that they cannot be applied freely when sparring.

[David Jamieson]

Quite frankly, even in mma schools you have scads of people who don't want to actually fight, bang or spar with good intention.

this is the thingf with pretty much any school. There is going to be a greater percentage of people who are there to get fit, get the t-shirt, get some status in their otherwise stausless lives etc etc. lol

Things are same all over.

How many pros in the world?
How many practitioners?

there's your numbers.

[Drake]

More people train in martial arts for health reasons than those who want to come home with a hyperextended ebow...

[Frost]

If you can do a form entirely from a horse stance, there's something inherently wrong with the form.

And drills are no different from forms. At all. Period. You can take chunks out of forms and make them drills, and I can think of at least one CLF school that does so. It is repetition of a set of movements in order to build them into muscle memory, so you don't end up trying to remember it during a time when you don't have time to remember.

This is coming from a guy who HAS to do MMA for work, and does TCMA for a pasttime. MMA has some uses, but it's not this holy revelation of fighting that has only recently been discovered. All it did (for me) was reemphasize the importance of being able to fight on the ground, and that big, muscular guys hit hard (duh).

well bully for you...and i missed the part where i was replying to you in my post ....?

to make it clearer for everyone
1) there is nothing easy or easier to practise about MMA, its a **** site harder to do than any kung fu class i have ever been in, and to become good at it takes a lot of hard work, it is not the easy path.
2) not everyone can throw a kick or punch well, and those in an MMA can usually throw them alot better than those in a kung fu gym


who said MMA is the holy grail of fighting....most MMA guys i know are grounded enough to know what they do is a sport.....most of the kung fu guys i know think differently about their arts...

[Frost]

I don't think TCMA is hard to apply. The problem is not enough KF heads really pressure testing their stuff to understand what works for them and what doesn't or even how to make it work for them. I hear what your saying, but you still have the most difficult/dangerous part a head of you....talking the person down and unless you do, those moves are useless.


Bless,

Buby

why do people always assume MMA means grappling, i might be at fault here because i listed two grappling moves, but i could also have listed learning to knee in the plum....or learning to land hooks and upper cuts of a underhook without getting hit in return

Taking someone down isnt that hard, especially if they have no grappling training, but since i have over a decade in stand up training as well i am more than happy to bang and knock people out on my feet and if they want to gt close and bridge with me thats fine i actually prefer the clinch to the ground :)

[Frost]

Quite frankly, even in mma schools you have scads of people who don't want to actually fight, bang or spar with good intention.

this is the thingf with pretty much any school. There is going to be a greater percentage of people who are there to get fit, get the t-shirt, get some status in their otherwise stausless lives etc etc. lol

Things are same all over.

How many pros in the world?
How many practitioners?

there's your numbers.

actually not everyone wants to fight you are right, but in MMA and grappling gyms they all spar to some extent and level of contact, and they know the moves they are doing work because those that do fight out of the gym do the same moves

[Frost]

More people train in martial arts for health reasons than those who want to come home with a hyperextended ebow...

and thats fine if thats why they attend, but the problem becomes when people become convinced they will be able to defend themselves with what they are learning....or worse start to teach classes themselves without ever having tested their skills

and i can think of lots of better things for health than alot of the martial arts out there

and as for the hyperextended elbow thing...its a myth made up to scare young children
i saw more injuries during my kung fu training from guys doing silly things (one guy dislocated his knee trying a reverse spinning kick whilst his foot stayed planted to the carpet in the gym...another knocked himself out with a pair of nunchucks....) in 8 years or so training MMA and grappling the worst i have seen is someone getting choked out, no brocken bones or hyperextended elbows sorry ....of course the gym i train in might not be that hard core

[YouKnowWho]

Are you training TCMA or MMA when you train the hook punch, turn around side/hook kick, spin back fist combo at home without partner?

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/2049/2706201092556new.gif

By looking at the following short clip, it's easy to tell that the TCMA training is not much different from the MMA training.

http://johnswang.com/Paul_knee_seize.wmv

[David Jamieson]

actually not everyone wants to fight you are right, but in MMA and grappling gyms they all spar to some extent and level of contact, and they know the moves they are doing work because those that do fight out of the gym do the same moves

you have to admit that rolling isn't exactly hard sparring. It's a good workout and great training, but it's not the same as hitting and getting hit.

there isn't a lot fo that in your average afterwork mma person any more than anyone else.

also, factors regarding legality and insurance are huge for some clubs who just can't afford that without significant cash outlays and if you are not in the business of training fighters who will win purses, there's not a lot of return on it.

[Drake]

well bully for you...and i missed the part where i was replying to you in my post ....?

to make it clearer for everyone
1) there is nothing easy or easier to practise about MMA, its a **** site harder to do than any kung fu class i have ever been in, and to become good at it takes a lot of hard work, it is not the easy path.
2) not everyone can throw a kick or punch well, and those in an MMA can usually throw them alot better than those in a kung fu gym


who said MMA is the holy grail of fighting....most MMA guys i know are grounded enough to know what they do is a sport.....most of the kung fu guys i know think differently about their arts...

If you don't want to hear what everyone else has to say about a topic, then take it to PMs. It's an open forum... I don't get why you are surprised when everyone esle is chiming in as well.

[Drake]

and thats fine if thats why they attend, but the problem becomes when people become convinced they will be able to defend themselves with what they are learning....or worse start to teach classes themselves without ever having tested their skills

and i can think of lots of better things for health than alot of the martial arts out there

and as for the hyperextended elbow thing...its a myth made up to scare young children
i saw more injuries during my kung fu training from guys doing silly things (one guy dislocated his knee trying a reverse spinning kick whilst his foot stayed planted to the carpet in the gym...another knocked himself out with a pair of nunchucks....) in 8 years or so training MMA and grappling the worst i have seen is someone getting choked out, no brocken bones or hyperextended elbows sorry ....of course the gym i train in might not be that hard core

It's not a myth. You missed the part where I said I do MMA for work. I've seen it happen several times, and it nearly happened to me, bad enough that I missed my last APFT at MIBOLC over it.

In fact, since they started implementing MMA in the Army, injuries have soared, and now the medical folks Army-wide are tracking these injuries specifically. No, it's not a myth. Yes, injuries are common. It's VERY easy for an inexperienced person to accidentally hurt someone.

[Frost]

you have to admit that rolling isn't exactly hard sparring. It's a good workout and great training, but it's not the same as hitting and getting hit.

there isn't a lot fo that in your average afterwork mma person any more than anyone else.

also, factors regarding legality and insurance are huge for some clubs who just can't afford that without significant cash outlays and if you are not in the business of training fighters who will win purses, there's not a lot of return on it.

rolling isnt hard sparring but it shows you what does and does not working in that area, add in clinch and takedowns and even without strikes you still have a good skill set. And thats in grappling classes MMA classes are different even if you are just there for a workout.

All the MMA places i have trained, even those that dont produce pros have their guys sparring at least once a week, and the level of contact is always enough to keep you honest, even the hobbiests (which includes me these days) still put on the gloves and bang at a level that keeps our hands up :)

Insurance must be different over there, over here in the UK even the small gyms can get insured for sparring

And coming from a fairly high level of kung fu training (well for the uk anyway) and now being a hobbiest MMA guy and grappler, the amount of time spent sparring, working against resistance and gloved up in the MMA classes compared to the kung fu classes i have seen is remarkable.

Even the hobbiests glove up every session, and drill spar etc, that never happened in the kung fu places, you were lucky to find someone to do sticky hands or bare hand (traditional ) sparing at light contact.

[Frost]

It's not a myth. You missed the part where I said I do MMA for work. I've seen it happen several times, and it nearly happened to me, bad enough that I missed my last APFT at MIBOLC over it.

In fact, since they started implementing MMA in the Army, injuries have soared, and now the medical folks Army-wide are tracking these injuries specifically. No, it's not a myth. Yes, injuries are common. It's VERY easy for an inexperienced person to accidentally hurt someone.

It is a myth, you are looking at it from a different view point than most of us....you are in the armed forces and the level of contact and risk levels there will probabley be higher than in civilian life.

All i can go off is the 8 years or so i have been grappling and doing MMA out of gyms that compete in both those disiplines at a high level (ie our pros fight in the ufc and japan, our grapplers compete at national level tournements and we have several former memebers of the british judo team train with us)

If you are at a decent gym with a good instructor you are no more at risk from injury than doing any other sport or activity. H*ll most of our guys injuries come from playing football (sorry soccer) than from anything done in the gym.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have a lot of friends who are legit Muay Thai guys. Many have lived and trained in Thailand. They will be the first person to tell you that we dont' do Muay Thai. Not in the way we punch, our footwork, what kicks we use, HOW we use them, etc...

I honestly think it is why we do so well in Muay Thai, we have comparable but not exactly teh same skills....

I may not be doing forms, or "line basics" but is that really what CMA is about?

You know I am generalizing and I agree, TCMA is NOT about line basics or forms and never has been.

[bawang]

every time a culture, or empire is about to fall, its people enter a state of illusion and eternal childishness to escape reality.
the chinese martial community mystified it self because it lost purpose for existence and was finished, forever. firearms became the main weapon since the ming dynasty. the current state of america also allows chinese fantasy scams to take place.

forms or being able to defeat a mma guy isnt the purpose of post ming qing chinese martial arts. the purpose is to spread the ideal of hap/xia, violence and force incarnate.

kung fu morals isnt about pouring tea and bowing to confucious. kung fu morals is about "killing evil and preserving righterousness" (quoting chinese jesus hong xiuquan). can we carry that out today, no. but we can at least respect it and not be complete gays.

[David Jamieson]

every time a culture, or empire is about to fall, its people enter a state of illusion and eternal childishness to escape reality.
the chinese martial community mystified it self because it lost purpose for existence.

forms or being able to defeat a mma guy isnt the purpose of post ming qing chinese martial arts. the purpose is to spread the ideal of hap/xia, violence and force incarnate.

kung fu morals isnt about pouring tea and bowing to confucious. kung fu morals is about "killing evil and preserving righterousness" (quoting chinese jesus hong xiuquan). can we carry that out today, no. but we can at least respect it and not be complete gays.

Kill the evil within, preserve the righteousness that is within as well.

Cultivate yourself. it's not about controlling someone else, it's about controlling yourself when these ideals are mentioned.

Imagine a world where everyone in it understood that.

What a place that would be!

[ManilaCrane]

lol yes you are talking crap about MMA and dat stuff, at least have the balls to admit it

Sure its much easier to take a punch to the head or get thrown on your back than it is to sit in a horse stance of practise your forms....the reason most people who want to learn to fight go to a MMA gym is because they turn out fighters and not form pansys who think what they do is better and harder than that easy MMA stuff...but who dont have the b*lls to actually step up and prove it :)

And yes its much harder to do that TCMA stuff than it is to learn a reverse triangle from side control or learn how to turn a double into a running pipe single.....

How is dat talkin crap about MMA? i don't find anything offensive about it in my paragraph...

[Lokhopkuen]

When I get a moment, less and less now as the school grows so big, I read the board here. Honestly, it depresses me (sorry Gene) because more and more the reality of what TCMA was is missing in action (MIA)

A few of us on here apparently still have had contact with the "old timers" and may have actually trained in a Chinatown and seen first hand what really was going on

But I know at least one person who DID that and yet their posts still spew the kool-aid infected drivel that frauds are selling the stupid :mad:

I think in a few years, all that will be left is this "new age" kung fu, out of the kung fu movie box, with wushu razzle dazzle, kung fu TV series fake philosophy and la-la larping

I must say the only thing that gives me hope is Kennedy's books, which unfortunately the trols will never read :o

I laugh over and again when you post garbage like this. "reality of what TCMA was is missing in action (MIA)" Says the Kickboxing instructor. I personally know scores of dedicated TCMA teachers who quietly pass on their learnings to dedicated students from the heart day after day and year after year never seeking recognition nor are they coffee-clatching on internet forums about disgruntled former students of TCMA grown to stiff overweight cardio kick boxers.
Their only interest is gung fu as it was handed down sincerely from generation to generation.

I imagine it is rather difficult to cultivate any real skill if one spends the majority of their time talking trash over the internet:rolleyes: Back away from the keyboard, peel that fat ass off of the chair and live gung fu to the letter of the word.

TCMA is only dead in the eyes of the keyboard warrior....

LMFAO

[lkfmdc]

blah blah blah whine whine whine



says the guy who epitomizes the flash over substance approach to CMA :rolleyes:

[Frost]

Not talkin crap about MMA or Kickboxing or dat stuff, but i think the reason why alot of people turn to those stuff is because its probably easier to practice than kung fu.

After all, Kung Fu means "Skill attain through hard work". I mean sure, anyone can throw a punch or a kick, but it takes alot of practice and repetition to do the stuff that is in Chinese Martial arts.

you are basically saying MMA is easy to do and everyone can do it....and that kung fu is much more hard work and has special stuff that not everyone can do...correct?

if you cant see that saying people go to MMA because its easier to do and whilst anyone can throw punches and kicks but not everyone can put in the hard work to do the special stuff in kung fu.. is not offensive then.....:rolleyes:

[Lokhopkuen]

you are basically saying MMA is easy to do and everyone can do it....and that kung fu is much more hard work and has special stuff that not everyone can do...correct?

if you cant see that saying people go to MMA because its easier to do and whilst anyone can throw punches and kicks but not everyone can put in the hard work to do the special stuff in kung fu.. is not offensive then.....:rolleyes:

Pursuing martial art skill in any discipline is an arduous task that should never be taken lightly and should always be respected. To be proficient in the basics of any of the combat arts requires time, dedication, quality of practice, consistency and patience adding up to experience.

Any martial art that is easy isn't really martial art.:rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Lets not make this personal guys, Dave has a valid point and we all know that.
At the same time, what I posted was to show that, while Dave has a valid point, he himself doesn't seem to be doing anything about it.
SEEM being the operative word since I, personally, don't know if he is or isn't.
Thing is, Kisu does also make a point that there are "many" TCMA that are doing their best to pass on the "real" TCMA that they know.
Still, we all have to admit that in any given city, the vast majority of MA schools that are NOT oriented towards full contact sport MA, do tend to be less than the original systems they teach SHOULD be.
Yes, I am being diplomatic.
My own Hung Kuen Sifu, when he taught publicly, had one of those schools, it was more commercial and oriented towards the "shaw brothers" then it was towards the spirit of practical combat.
BUT, in his own words, the good stuff was there for those that were willing to find it via fighting.
Now that he is retired and only has 3 students and his 1 son, every lesson is a lesson in practical combat and MA.
In his own words - I gave people what they wanted and still am.
His brother, who is younger and more "energetic" never had a school and spend his time perfecting his SPM by boxing and training full contact, never the while telling anyone he knew SPM and now that he too is retired, spends his time teaching his hybrid SPM/Hung Kuen system that he "designed" to work against Boxing and KB.
Neither one cares that much about the "state" of TCMA outside what they KNOW, ie: their family and selected students.

I think that the vast majority of old time Sifu's are exactly like that.

[lkfmdc]

Lets not make this personal guys,



For those who forgot, the last time "Kisu" went a little "off track" he carried on for three days because he thought I was "knifefighter". Then he woke up and said "oh, you're not, sorry" :rolleyes:

He just sent me a threatening email, like I give a ****

I think he's spent too much time on movie sets and has forgotten what reality is

[MasterKiller]

It is a myth, you are looking at it from a different view point than most of us....you are in the armed forces and the level of contact and risk levels there will probabley be higher than in civilian life.

All i can go off is the 8 years or so i have been grappling and doing MMA out of gyms that compete in both those disiplines at a high level (ie our pros fight in the ufc and japan, our grapplers compete at national level tournements and we have several former memebers of the british judo team train with us)

If you are at a decent gym with a good instructor you are no more at risk from injury than doing any other sport or activity. H*ll most of our guys injuries come from playing football (sorry soccer) than from anything done in the gym.

IME, the injury rate in the military is much higher than in a standard school.

Part of the injury risk in the military is that combatives (or MMA) is not trained regularly by the majority (at least in the ARMY). They spend 2 weeks in Level 1 and are then expected to practice once a month with their battalion. So, you wind up with a bunch of inexperienced people training others who aren't in great shape to begin with, which leads to injuries. Not to mention the "toughness" factor that is embedded into military training. The combatives "Punch Drill" is bascially an exercise in subordinate punishment, and I believe it was even banned after a couple of deaths at Ft. Benning.

[sanjuro_ronin]

For those who forgot, the last time "Kisu" went a little "off track" he carried on for three days because he thought I was "knifefighter". Then he woke up and said "oh, you're not, sorry" :rolleyes:

He just sent me a threatening email, like I give a ****

I think he's spent too much time on movie sets and has forgotten what reality is

I don't recall that.
See, now I regret playing the "devils advocate" role and laying into you.
See, I knew YOU could handle it and that you would understand what I was saying.
But I think I may have set a personal precedent with it when I singled you out.
Sorry Bro.

[David Jamieson]

anyone can dance at a prom.
few make it onto a national ballet stage.

[sanjuro_ronin]

anyone can dance at a prom.
few make it onto a national ballet stage.

We all took gym in school, that doesn't make us pro athletes.

[Frost]

IME, the injury rate in the military is much higher than in a standard school.

Part of the injury risk in the military is that combatives (or MMA) is not trained regularly by the majority (at least in the ARMY). They spend 2 weeks in Level 1 and are then expected to practice once a month with their battalion. So, you wind up with a bunch of inexperienced people training others who aren't in great shape to begin with, which leads to injuries. Not to mention the "toughness" factor that is embedded into military training. The combatives "Punch Drill" is bascially an exercise in subordinate punishment, and I believe it was even banned after a couple of deaths at Ft. Benning.

that was my understanding too hence my comment about his viewpoint being different from those of us not in the military, fact is if you train at a good school the injury rate is no different then TCMA or playing a team sport.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Bah, you bunch of pansies !
At my old school we had a dumpster in the back so we could dispose of all the bodies after a typical training session.
Sure you ran out of people quick, but REAL AUTHENTIC MARTIAL ARTS ARE NOT FOR THE WEAK !!!

[MasterKiller]

We all took gym in school, that doesn't make us pro athletes.

http://giavasan.diludovico.it/archivi/public_html/giavasan/archivi/images3/2008WomensSillyWalksCompetition.jpg

[Frost]

Bah, you bunch of pansies !
At my old school we had a dumpster in the back so we could dispose of all the bodies after a typical training session.
Sure you ran out of people quick, but REAL AUTHENTIC MARTIAL ARTS ARE NOT FOR THE WEAK !!!

you dont count you were in the military too :)

[Lokhopkuen]

For those who forgot, the last time "Kisu" went a little "off track" he carried on for three days because he thought I was "knifefighter". Then he woke up and said "oh, you're not, sorry" :rolleyes:

He just sent me a threatening email, like I give a ****

I think he's spent too much time on movie sets and has forgotten what reality is

Do some sit ups ya pudgy little guy:D

[Lokhopkuen]

For those who forgot, the last time "Kisu" went a little "off track" he carried on for three days because he thought I was "knifefighter". Then he woke up and said "oh, you're not, sorry" :rolleyes:

He just sent me a threatening email, like I give a ****

I think he's spent too much time on movie sets and has forgotten what reality is

I have a great idea David;
Hows about we set a date, I'll stop by and we can put on some gloves and have a friendly bout? You can video and everything. What do you think?

I'm on a protection detail with these kids http://www.winwinbrands.com/
My oldest son will be with me as well. No threat just good clean fun Mister Bada$$??

[Lokhopkuen]

For those who forgot, the last time "Kisu" went a little "off track" he carried on for three days because he thought I was "knifefighter". Then he woke up and said "oh, you're not, sorry" :rolleyes:

He just sent me a threatening email, like I give a ****

I think he's spent too much time on movie sets and has forgotten what reality is

Let's be clear David:
You sent me a bunch of insulting PMs a while back under one of your trolling aliases because you were too much of a coward to say it in public.

I never said you were knifefighter. You apologized and said you didn't want any trouble you lying a s s.....

You always start ranting about some dumb sh!t and then when someone calls you on it you side track with a series of insults straying away from the issue.

You are a little loudmouth ugly troll looking self promoting pudgy penguin girlie man :D and everyone here knows it.:eek:

[lkfmdc]

Let's be clear David:
You sent me a bunch of insulting PMs a while back under one of your trolling aliases because you were too much of a coward to say it in public.



LMFAO.... there you have it

In his senile old mind someone insulted him and it MUST have been me :rolleyes:

I have news for you, you are so insignificant that I wouldn't bother to send you PM's. You are meaningless.

If I wanted to insult you I'd do it right here and as ME. I only have one account, if you doubt that, ask Gene

Seriously, gget back on your meds

[Lokhopkuen]

LMFAO.... there you have it

In his senile old mind someone insulted him and it MUST have been me :rolleyes:

I have news for you, you are so insignificant that I wouldn't bother to send you PM's. You are meaningless.

If I wanted to insult you I'd do it right here and as ME. I only have one account, if you doubt that, ask Gene

Seriously, gget back on your meds

I'm not on meds bro.
Are you on a diet you fat little coward?

All playful banter aside I will be in Manhattan in a few days and I'd love to stop by and pay my respects and experience some of you superior martial skill.

YES?/NO?

[lkfmdc]

I don't recall that.



read a little further down (wait, I mean UP) where the senile old fool thinks I sent him Pm's .....

He's convinced I have created multiple accounts to harass him, like I even care enough to waste my time on HIM :rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

I'm not on meds bro.



well, clearly you SHOULD BE because you've created your own little fantasy world where I care enough about you to create an account and send you PM's....

So again, because you are slow to grasp, I didn't send you any PM's... I didn't apologize because I didn't send them. In fact, YOU apologized for thinking it was me when it wasn't... you seem to have forgotten that

Geezzzz what a head case

[Scott R. Brown]

LMFAO.... there you have it

In his senile old mind someone insulted him and it MUST have been me :rolleyes:

I have news for you, you are so insignificant that I wouldn't bother to send you PM's. You are meaningless.

If I wanted to insult you I'd do it right here and as ME. I only have one account, if you doubt that, ask Gene

Seriously, gget back on your meds


read a little further down (wait, I mean UP) where the senile old fool thinks I sent him Pm's .....

He's convinced I have created multiple accounts to harass him, like I even care enough to waste my time on HIM :rolleyes:

Now I am getting confused.....

is EVERYONE you or are YOU everyone?:confused::confused::confused:

[lkfmdc]

All jokes aside Scott, I do NOT have any account other than this. Gene will be happy to confirm that.

This senile fool has created a fantasy world where he is so important that I went out of my way to create a fake accoont just to send him PM's :rolleyes:

Quite funny, though pathetic as well....

[Dragonzbane76]

didn't you know????????

Everyone is David Ross..............:):D

lolz...this is just funny all the head cases on here...More and more I realize there are some dumb people out in the world.

[Lokhopkuen]

well, clearly you SHOULD BE because you've created your own little fantasy world where I care enough about you to create an account and send you PM's....

So again, because you are slow to grasp, I didn't send you any PM's... I didn't apologize because I didn't send them. In fact, YOU apologized for thinking it was me when it wasn't... you seem to have forgotten that

Geezzzz what a head case

No fantasy world son:rolleyes:

I would like to come to your school to have a friendly sparring match with you.
I'll bring a camera crew that travels with my hiphop kids and post the results so that everyone here can see how the great DAVID ROSS kicked my ass.

Please Mr. Ross:D

Yes or No?

[lkfmdc]

didn't you know????????

Everyone is David Ross..............:):D

lolz...this is just funny all the head cases on here...More and more I realize there are some dumb people out in the world.

But this one TAKES THE CAKE, especially when he can't remember he already made this mistake once, apologized, and the hibernated for almost a year

Bi polar maybe?

[Dragonzbane76]

wow threats.... didn't see that coming.

[lkfmdc]

Stick to break dancing, the electric boogaloo and your movie fantasy world....

And seek professional help, you obviously have some serious medical issues,

[Lokhopkuen]

All jokes aside Scott, I do NOT have any account other than this. Gene will be happy to confirm that.

This senile fool has created a fantasy world where he is so important that I went out of my way to create a fake accoont just to send him PM's :rolleyes:

Quite funny, though pathetic as well....

I'm offering to let you call me these names to my face David.

YES or NO?:D

[Lokhopkuen]

wow threats.... didn't see that coming.

Where did I make a threat? I asked for a friendly match but no answer, just more insults......

[Dragonzbane76]

Where did I make a threat? I asked for a friendly match but no answer, just more insults......

reading between the lines must be a lost art to some then. :rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

Let's review

A year ago, someone sent Kisu insults by PM

For reasons which remain quite obscure, he thought it was me

A little later, he realized it wasn't me, and apologized

Now, a YEAR LATER, he is once again convinced that it was me... I mean the ORIGINAL time

I don't have any account but this and if I wanted to insult you I'd do it here. I think you live in a fantasy land and have wraped the kung fu flag around you. Other than that, you are MEANINGLESS to me. I couldn't care.

So I didn't send you Pm's but it's **** funny that you seem to implode every year or so, like I said, signs of some organic (or perhaps chemically) induced episode

[Lokhopkuen]

Stick to break dancing, the electric boogaloo and your movie fantasy world....

And seek professional help, you obviously have some serious medical issues,

Nope;
No medical issues Mr. Ross. I'd like to stop by your school in the next few days and have a friendly sparring session between you and I. No threats, no rants just a little work out?


Yes? or No?:rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

no rants

obviously irony is lost on this one

every post you've made has been a rant so far

actually, I think you and OJ should seek out whoever actually sent you those PM's.....

dear lord

[Lokhopkuen]

Let's review

A year ago, someone sent Kisu insults by PM

For reasons which remain quite obscure, he thought it was me

A little later, he realized it wasn't me, and apologized

Now, a YEAR LATER, he is once again convinced that it was me... I mean the ORIGINAL time

I don't have any account but this and if I wanted to insult you I'd do it here. I think you live in a fantasy land and have wraped the kung fu flag around you. Other than that, you are MEANINGLESS to me. I couldn't care.

So I didn't send you Pm's but it's **** funny that you seem to implode every year or so, like I said, signs of some organic (or perhaps chemically) induced episode

You got my attention by yet again hurling insults at Traditional Chinese Martial arts in a lame attempt to promote your imaginary full contact studio. Now you dodge and sidestep and insult when I ask for a boxing session. Sad is the life of the martial arts possure..
Cheers.

PS

If you grow a set of nutts between your vaginal flaps the offer still stands.
LMFAO:D:D:D:D:D

[lkfmdc]

JUST AS I THOUGHT

As per my elaborate fantasy creation when the person who didn't send the PM's doesn't own up to them I have proven I am the greatest!

Hah Hah, I am king of the world

:rolleyes:

[hskwarrior]

Really......

This is way more sillier than my student being robbed in that BS tournament. :p

[bawang]

we need to set aside our differences and fight our common enemy: wing chun

[Lokhopkuen]

obviously irony is lost on this one

every post you've made has been a rant so far

actually, I think you and OJ should seek out whoever actually sent you those PM's.....

dear lord


You my friend are a :eek:coward:eek: and now everyone here knows it:D
You would not dare to say any of the crap you are saying here to my face:cool:
I'm a nice guy and heck we could even be friends, I have met many people from this forum. I hung out with KC Elbows last week in a beautiful penthouse in Kansas City, MO. talking about martial arts over drinks surrounded with pretty ladies.
I travel quite a bit to your City and I tried to find your gym a couple of times (no threat) but you don't have to worry I'm no bully you twinkle toe'd little pu ss y:p

Peace:rolleyes:

[Lokhopkuen]

JUST AS I THOUGHT

As per my elaborate fantasy creation when the person who didn't send the PM's doesn't own up to them I have proven I am the greatest!

Hah Hah, I am king of the world

:rolleyes:

So much for your reputation as a fighter David:rolleyes:

[Scott R. Brown]

The tradition is that when a duel is requested, the receiver of the request, that would be David here, gets to choose the terms. The reason for this is that, a wise man never accepts a challenge on the challenger's terms. It is like taking a bar bet, if a guy bets he can do some crazy stunt with a whiskey glass, a quarter and a used condom, he has some trick up his sleeve in order to take your money.

In duel challenges, a man who challenges another, and sets the terms, will load the dice in his favor by setting terms of his own liking. The idea is that if one is angry enough to challenge another he must accept the terms set by the other in order to make the situation more equitable. This tends to reduce the number of frivolous challenges since the challenger is require to accept the possibility of disadvantageous terms!

So, Lokhop, if you challenge David and he wishes to accept, you must allow him to set the terms by the traditions of dueling!

[Scott R. Brown]

we need to set aside our differences and fight our common enemy: wing chun

I thought it was the Judean People's Front!:eek:

[Lokhopkuen]

Really......

This is way more sillier than my student being robbed in that BS tournament. :p

Is it really silly? This guy is always rude and insulting, always talking like such the bad a s s, always putting someone down and to top it off, he is an ugly little mthr fckr:D

We are all martial artist here so whats wrong with asking for a friendly sparring match?
According to David I am old, senile and in need of medications which is far from the truth. i am healthy, strong and a daily practitioner of traditional martial arts. You see in reality the fantasy world he refers to is his. He can't fight, he is a drunk and a drug user and a fantastic keyboard warrior who's heart pumps koolaid. In short he is all talk n type.

Did I mention he was bald and terribly ugly?:p

[Lokhopkuen]

The tradition is that when a duel is requested, the receiver of the request, that would be David here, gets to choose the terms. The reason for this is that, a wise man never accepts a challenge on the challenger's terms. It is like taking a bar bet, if a guy bets he can do some crazy stunt with a whiskey glass, a quarter and a used condom, he has some trick up his sleeve in order to take your money.

In duel challenges, a man who challenges another, and sets the terms, will load the dice in his favor by setting terms of his own liking. The idea is that if one is angry enough to challenge another he must accept the terms set by the other in order to make the situation more equitable. This tends to reduce the number of frivolous challenges since the challenger is require to accept the possibility of disadvantageous terms!

So, Lokhop, if you challenge David and he wishes to accept, you must allow him to set the terms by the traditions of dueling!

It's not a duel but instead I offered a friendly exchange of controlled technique. Now you can defend this little b!tch all you want but we now see the great kung fu forum hero for what he is. COWARD;)

[Dragonzbane76]

Is it really silly? This guy is always rude and insulting, always talking like such the bad a s s, always putting someone down and to top it off, he is an ugly little mthr fckr

it's the internet... can people not understand that really????

Who cares, I mean really, WHO CARES.

So Lok. if someone insults you enough your first inclination is violence?

[Lokhopkuen]

it's the internet... can people not understand that really????

Who cares, I mean really, WHO CARES.

So Lok. if someone insults you enough your first inclination is violence?

No violence, just friendly exchange but he ain't man enough for that. All this it's just the internet is a convenient way to for posers to talk a bunch of crap from the safety of grand ma's basement. I still remember some of your chatter weasel.;)
In any case I feel if you make statements about the superiority of YOUR MARTIAL ART you should be more than willing TO BACK IT UP.
However I see what i'm dealing with here.

Cheers

[Lokhopkuen]

JUST AS I THOUGHT

As per my elaborate fantasy creation when the person who didn't send the PM's doesn't own up to them I have proven I am the greatest!

Hah Hah, I am king of the world

:rolleyes:

You are indeed the king of something little guy.:p

[Iron_Eagle_76]

You dishonor me style......I kill you........I kill you to you dead.......you no insult me style I strike like snake to you nek till you die from it..........then I rub Dit Da Jow in you eyes and shove bamboo up ur ass and you liek it!!!!

Sorry, I was suddenly posessed by Bawang, must be one of my other 50 accounts:D

[Mano Mano]

No violence, just friendly exchange but he ain't man enough for that. All this it's just the internet is a convenient way to for posers to talk a bunch of crap from the safety of grand ma's basement. I still remember some of your chatter weasel.;)
In any case I feel if you make statements about the superiority of YOUR MARTIAL ART you should be more than willing TO BACK IT UP.
However I see what i'm dealing with here.

Cheers

Two people getting together to punch & kick each other with animosity between them, how could it be a friendly challenge?

[Dragonzbane76]

No violence, just friendly exchange but he ain't man enough for that. All this it's just the internet is a convenient way to for posers to talk a bunch of crap from the safety of grand ma's basement. I still remember some of your chatter weasel.
In any case I feel if you make statements about the superiority of YOUR MARTIAL ART you should be more than willing TO BACK IT UP.
However I see what i'm dealing with here.

haha you remember my chatter? good for you. glad i made an impression.

people like you take things way to seriously. In all honesty your proving your an idiot throwing threats around like it's candy. People like you and HW8 are whats wrong with the world today. Someone says something and you jump up and down screaming "foul" and when no one pays attention you start throwing threats out or blaming "Higher" powers for your degraded state. Pitiful.

for your information don't include me in your spat with mr. ross, i have no affiliation with him, i wasn't siding with him either, just pointing out that only freaking idiots argue on the internet. But we already knew that already about you don't we.

[Lokhopkuen]

Two people getting together to punch & kick each other with animosity between them, how could it be a friendly challenge?

I'm not upset bro, serious:rolleyes:

[Lokhopkuen]

haha you remember my chatter? good for you. glad i made an impression.

people like you take things way to seriously. In all honesty your proving your an idiot throwing threats around like it's candy. People like you and HW8 are whats wrong with the world today. Someone says something and you jump up and down screaming "foul" and when no one pays attention you start throwing threats out or blaming "Higher" powers for your degraded state. Pitiful.

for your information don't include me in your spat with mr. ross, i have no affiliation with him, i wasn't siding with him either, just pointing out that only freaking idiots argue on the internet. But we already knew that already about you don't we.

I'm a serious person;) and I didn't threaten but fancy the possibility of VIOLENCE ona MARTIAL ART FORUM? Moron.. People like you think you can say anything you like and it's okay:rolleyes: You're the pitiful one brother and the difference between you and I is I'd say the same to your face:D

But hey it's just the internet LOL!

[Dragonzbane76]

I'm a serious person People like you think you can say anything you like and it's okay You're the pitiful one brother and the difference between you and I is I'd say the same to your face

But hey it's just the internet LOL!

so your a step away from being a suicide bomber. Great all the world needs another fanatical moron. And yes, yes i can say any dam thing I well please and there is not one dam thing you can do about it. And don't play your threats with me, you come on my door I'll just shot your a$$.

But hey it is the internet isn't it LOL....

[Lokhopkuen]

so your a step away from being a suicide bomber. Great all the world needs another fanatical moron. And yes, yes i can say any dam thing I well please and there is not one dam thing you can do about it. And don't play your threats with me, you come on my door I'll just shot your a$$.

But hey it is the internet isn't it LOL....

And thank goodness you are the only one with a gun honey:D
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
He threatened to shoot me on a martial art forum:rolleyes:

FAIL
I win:p

[GeneChing]

I hope you got to relax, enjoy and blow something up.

I'm locking this thread now. :rolleyes: