Horse Stance Feet

[SanHeChuan]

Some people do their horse stance with their feet pointing the same direction as their knees. They do so because it reduces torque and lateral stress placed on the knees.

http://www.hung-gar.com.ar/imagenes/notas/posturas/seipingma.jpg

And you are told to always have your feet pointing the same direction as your knees

Other people however choose the horse stance as an exception to that rule, pointing their feet forward. I cannot figure out why they do this.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_e6y3kXV1Wqg/SdQmzwKFoYI/AAAAAAAABd4/2fb2OvTKF4Y/s400/horse+stance.jpg

I searched the back log of threads and this was the only clear answer I could find.

From 2001 :eek:;)

okay technically the reason your toes point forwards is to lock the tendons of the legs, the horse stance is not supposed to be a muscular exercise, thus if you have your toes pointing outwards you use your thigh muscles not your tendons, pan qin fu calls this the toilet stance, because when you take a nice long dump in the toilet your legs are outwards not straight at 90 degrees.

Can anyone tell me why you should point your toes forward?:confused::confused:

[TenTigers]

many of these so-called "rules," are to correct poor training. The problem is that the student takes this to an extreme..then of course he becomes a "Sifu," and passes it on.
Ever see some people do a horse with their butt tucked so much that they look like a dog with his tail between his legs? Ridiculous. Tuck yuor sacrum, sure, to a degree, and so as not to arch your sacrunm the other way. Feet forward is the same thing, otherwise students sit like a duck.
everything in moderation.

[yutyeesam]

For static training, feet forward doesn't seem to make too much structural sense. But if you practice in motion (at least in CLF, where we emphasize transitioning stances more than static), the foot will turn to that position for power generation.

For example going from Cat Stance (right leg forward), and lunging into Horse Stance with a straight punch (like Tsop Tsui), you'll want to turn that right foot to about 90 degrees with the hip/waist/torso/shoulders turning in the same direction at the same time for maximum power generation.

But again, that is from a moving stance for synergistic power generation. As an isolated static stance drill, to do so is training more aesthetics than good structure.

Just my coupla cents.

-123

[KC Elbows]

In moving, from the foot out position, the transition is already facilitated, making the transition faster, and thus, increasing the one part of the speed x mass that we tend to have the most control of. Of itself, how does pivoting the foot to move effect power at all except because, in square stance, if you don't pivot, you are closed to the side when you transition weight.

This is not an argument for or against either type of horse stance, just in regards to the transition discussion.

[yutyeesam]

In moving, from the foot out position, the transition is already facilitated, making the transition faster, and thus, increasing the one part of the speed x mass that we tend to have the most control of. Of itself, how does pivoting the foot to move effect power at all except because, in square stance, if you don't pivot, you are closed to the side when you transition weight.

This is not an argument for or against either type of horse stance, just in regards to the transition discussion.

Fair question. Try it from a front stance, right leg forward - throw a straight punch with your right hand. If you don't turn your foot, but you turn everything else, you can get some power. But if you turn your foot a little with the punch, it actually facilitates the entire body turning at the point of impact with the punch.

I dunno if I'm explaining adequately. Boxers do it too, not the horse stance, but pivoting that front foot with lead hand punches. It's essentially the same concept.

Apologies if this doesn't make sense.

-123

[KC Elbows]

Fair question. Try it from a front stance, right leg forward - throw a straight punch with your right hand. If you don't turn your foot, but you turn everything else, you can get some power. But if you turn your foot a little with the punch, it actually facilitates the entire body turning at the point of impact with the punch.

I dunno if I'm explaining adequately. Boxers do it too, not the horse stance, but pivoting that front foot with lead hand punches. It's essentially the same concept.

Apologies if this doesn't make sense.

-123

Makes perfect sense.

However, if the horse stance has the feet out, then the lead foot doesn't need to be pivoting to the same extent, if at all, but the mass behind the punch is the same. My point is the pivot does not add power, but instead facillitates the power being expressed in that direction, opening the stance to express the power; but, in a more open stance, this pivot is unnecessary or much smaller, and possibly faster. If the horse stance is not unnecessarily wide, and the feet natural as opposed to pointing far to the outside, this might be even better, in some views of it.

[David Jamieson]

Back straight, but not straight.
Thighs Paralell
Shins Perpindicular
Feet facing forward

[yutyeesam]

Makes perfect sense.

However, if the horse stance has the feet out, then the lead foot doesn't need to be pivoting to the same extent, if at all, but the mass behind the punch is the same. My point is the pivot does not add power, but instead facillitates the power being expressed in that direction, opening the stance to express the power; but, in a more open stance, this pivot is unnecessary or much smaller, and possibly faster. If the horse stance is not unnecessarily wide, and the feet natural as opposed to pointing far to the outside, this might be even better, in some views of it.

Could be, I've never tried w/o the pivot to try to generate the power. Been doing with the pivot for so long that w/o it, my punches aren't as strong. Guess that's just what my body's used to doing for 25 years, that anything different, my creaky old body goes, "huh?!" lol

But I believe you and am always open to trying new things. Is there a visual example on the youtubes of the concept you're describing? If it works, I'll totally try it.

-123

[KC Elbows]

Could be, I've never tried w/o the pivot to try to generate the power. Been doing with the pivot for so long that w/o it, my punches aren't as strong. Guess that's just what my body's used to doing for 25 years, that anything different, my creaky old body goes, "huh?!" lol

But I believe you and am always open to trying new things. Is there a visual example on the youtubes of the concept you're describing? If it works, I'll totally try it.

-123

I've seen some Chen stylists who do a similar approach. I'm not advocating a particular approach, just discussing for the fun of it, as the pivot is good to know.

Possibly a relevant point is what one's bow stance is like. If it is like David describes, with toes obliquely forward, then the method you describe for horse stance is likely appropriate. If it is rear foot closer to straight out more than forward, and lead foot straight forward, possibly what I described is more appropriate. Different horse should imply completely different general stance work.

[SevenStar]

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=57506

[KC Elbows]

This thread is more specific in focus.

I do agree with what you said on there, some throws, in combat, you need to be doing a deep horse at a point.

That said, the wideness of horse stance in many approaches is not my taste, though it once was.

[YouKnowWho]

Can anyone tell me why you should point your toes forward?:confused::confused:

I have seen a CMA demo in Ohio. The teacher had 20 students on the stage. Each student all had different horse stance. Some were narrow, some were wide, some were parallel, some pointed in, and some pointed out. Are they all correct?

If you touch your feet together, your balance is weak. When you move your feet apart, your balance will get better. When you have reached to a point that if you keep moving your feet apart, your balance will get worse.

If you have your toes all point inward, you will have poor balance. When you move your toes outward, your balance will get better. When you have reached to a point that if you keep moving your toes outward, your balance will get worse.

It's like the normal distribution (bell curve). There is only one highest point in that distribution curve. In other words, there is only one horse stance that will give you the maximum balance.

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/4995/bellcurve.gif

- A narrow horse stance is weak to resist a foot sweep from outside in.
- A wide horse stance is weak to resist a foot spring from inside out.

Your knee should point to the direction that your body is going to "spring" into. If your knees do not point to the same direction, when you straight your knees, your body will "spring" into different directions too. You will find difficulty to execute your hip throw (O Goshi), shoulder throw (Ippon Seoinage), embracing throw (Ushiro Goshi), ... with your "inward horse stance" or "outward horse stance".

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ogoshi.htm
http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ipponseoi.htm
http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ushirogoshi.htm

On a ski slope, an "inward horse stance" will slow you down. and an "outward horse stance" will make your legs to split apart. Only a parallel horse stance will give you a smooth slide on the snow surface.

[SanHeChuan]

For example going from Cat Stance (right leg forward), and lunging into Horse Stance with a straight punch (like Tsop Tsui), you'll want to turn that right foot to about 90 degrees with the hip/waist/torso/shoulders turning in the same direction at the same time for maximum power generation.


Ok I get what you’re putting down…
When I just move my front leg it does seem to give the hip a little more room to turn, but when I go into the full stance it doesn’t seem to give more. I’ll work on it.



Back straight, but not straight.
Thighs Parallel
Shins Perpendicular
Feet facing forward

But the question was WHY feet forward.



Your knee should point to the direction that your body is going to "spring" into.

With the wider low horse used to say sink into a punch, you’d be springing to the side, so would that mean point the feet out?

[YouKnowWho]

With the wider low horse used to say sink into a punch, you’d be springing to the side, so would that mean point the feet out?
In the striking art, the horse stance should be modified into 4-6 stance (40% weight in front and 60% weight in back) with body learning forward. Your front foot will point forward to your opponent (N), and your back foot will point 45 degree forward (NW). This way when you "spring", you will shoot yourself "toward" your opponent.

http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/1559/70866947.jpg

[David Jamieson]

Promotes balanced strength development at the low end of the posterior chain.
By keeping the feet straight you keep the tendons ligaments and other structures at the heels and up the calves in an even position on teh posterior chain.

So, lets say you are doing work on your calves doing raises. you turn your feet in and you work the outside, turn them out you work the inside, keep the straight you work the back.

By turning the feet out, you start to over engage the anterior chain at it's lower points at the quadraceps. for purpose of developing a good root and stable base in full sit to standing, you want a good strong posterior chain to build from.

I hope that is a western enough explanation. :)

ps yes the anus tucking is taken to ridiculous extremes at times. It is amplified when someone is assless to begin with. :D

[SanHeChuan]

In the striking art, the horse stance should be modified into 4-6 stance (40% weight in front and 60% weight in back) with body learning forward. Your front foot will point forward to your opponent (N), and your back foot will point 45 degree forward (NW). This way when you "spring", you will shoot yourself "toward" your opponent.

http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/1559/70866947.jpg

And if they block your punch or what have you, you can grab pull and punch again, pivoting, shifting your weight back to facilitate the pull from the 4-6 to the 5-5 horse stance. Pulling them off balance, and stretching them out to expose the ribs for the strike. Why then would it be better to point the feet one way or the other?

[YouKnowWho]

ps yes the anus tucking is taken to ridiculous extremes at times. It is amplified when someone is assless to begin with. :D
I think the "ass tucking" is for those who train "CMA for health" only. Our ass can perform 5 different functions such as:

1. 弹(Tan) - spring
2. 拱(Gong) - arch
3. 坐(Zuo) - sit
4. 迫(Po) - force
5. 翻(Fan) - flit


If we tuck our ass in, we have just given up all those 5 different hip functions.


Why then would it be better to point the feet one way or the other?
When your point your foot to your opponent, it will be harder for your opponent to "sweep" you. The best angle to sweep is the direction that your foot is pointing to. If your foot point forward, your opponent have to turn 180 degree in order to sweep you. If you point your foot side way, your opponent only need to turn 90 degree to sweep you. Besides a forward foot position can prevent your opponent to step on your knee joint (side way). Also a side way foot position will give your opponent a chance to use his shin to "bite" onto the outside of your leg. If your foot is pointing forward, his shin will meet your shin and he won't have any advantage.

[SanHeChuan]

So, lets say you are doing work on your calves doing raises. you turn your feet in and you work the outside, turn them out you work the inside, keep the straight you work the back.
By turning the feet out, you start to over engage the anterior chain at it's lower points at the quadraceps. for purpose of developing a good root and stable base in full sit to standing, you want a good strong posterior chain to build from.


Well, since your knees are pointing out at an approximate 45 degree angle, turning your feet forward would make them “in” compared to your knees so you’d be working the outside.

Are you saying the point is to disconnect your anterior and posterior chain so that more stress is placed on the posterior? For training purposes I could buy that, but for fighting?


When your point your foot to your opponent, it will be harder for your opponent to "sweep" you. The best angle to sweep is the direction that your foot is pointing to. If your foot point forward, your opponent have to turn 180 degree in order to sweep you. If you point your foot side way, your opponent only need to turn side 90 degree to sweep you. Besides a forward foot can prevent your opponent to step on your knee joint (side way). Also a side way foot position will give your opponent a chance to use his shin to "bite" onto the outside of your leg. If your foot is pointing forward, his shin will meet your shin and he won't have any advantage.

So, pointing your feet outward would be more towards the opponent in a side stance, than feet “forward”, and would be slightly less conducive to sweeping?

[YouKnowWho]

So, pointing your feet outward would be more towards the opponent in a side stance, than feet “forward”, and would be slightly less conducive to sweeping?
The 4-6 stance (/ ---) is not a outward horse. Your right foot may be outward but your left foot is inward. Also your body is facing to your opponent instead of side way.

If you have no threaten for kick, sweep, bite, and if you don't intend to "spring" forward, side way foot position may give you the ability to control your opponent's leg. You can make your opponent to feel that he can sit on your upper leg as a bench. If you pull his upper body back, he will fall back from that bench.

In both striking and throwing, I can see the usage of parallel horse (| |) for throws, and inward horse (/ \) for "shin bite", but I don't see the usage of outward horse (\ /).

[SanHeChuan]

The 4-6 stance (/ ---) is not a outward horse. Your right foot may be outward but your left foot is inward. Also your body is facing to your opponent instead of side way.

If you have no threaten for kick, sweep, bite, and if you don't intend to "spring" forward, side way foot position may give you the ability to control your opponent's leg. You can make your opponent to feel that he can sit on your upper leg as a bench. If you pull his upper body back, he will fall back from that bench.

In both striking and throwing, I can see the usage of parallel horse (| |) for throws, and inward horse (/ \) for "shin bite", but I don't see the usage of outward horse (\ /).

Your feet don’t need to be (l l) to get under thier legs with your horse, or to throw them over your horse.

I don't see using (/ \) for shin biting. Wouldn't that be the Wing Chun goat riding stance? Maybe if you could provide a visual?

In wing Chun we use (\ \)> against <(_ \) and in mantis we use or (_ \)> against <(_ \) to force their knee out of position. Which I think you are referring with Shin biting, yes?

Is there a use for (l l) other than for throws?

[YouKnowWho]

I don't see using (/ \) for shin biting. Wouldn't that be the Wing Chun goat riding stance? Maybe if you could provide a visual?
Here are "shin bit" that both feet point inward.

http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/2312/changlegseizing.jpg

http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/1563/changlegseizing1.jpg

[jdhowland]

Your feet don’t need to be (l l) to get under thier legs with your horse, or to throw them over your horse....Is there a use for (l l) other than for throws?

Feet parallel horse is useful for getting behind your opponent's lead knee with your own and breaking his horse by forcing his knee in the natural direction of flexion. Taking him backward over your thigh does not require having your feet parallel but crashing him forward does (unless you want to try the "half-butterfly horse" but that's a special case.

This movement looks like "riding horse" for only a moment before transitioning to kneeling horse. If it works and he is weighted on that leg you may be able to take his knee to the ground. If it is only partially successful you have at least prevented his pelvis from rotating toward you.

I've also seen this posture used for a "big door" attack against the opponent's stance by jumping and sitting on his thigh. Looks like ma bu when you land.

Don't know if you had these kinds of takedowns in mind when you mentioned throws.

Be well.

[SevenStar]

Here are "shin bit" that both feet point inward.

http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/2312/changlegseizing.jpg

http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/1563/changlegseizing1.jpg


looks like ko uchi gari in judo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SuAzlYzpJk

[hskwarrior]

Since the horse stance is primarily a training thing, i think its more about a balance and stability thing. if you feet are pointing like this \ / you are NOT as stable and sturdy as doing I I straight ahead. there are many ways to destroy someones horse stance, but i personally don't like the \ / type of stance. to me it feels awkward.

the old master would actually not even do it with the toes forward but slight turned inward as in the upside down version of this \ / .

[Lucas]

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/4995/bellcurve.gif



pretty much, everything we do has a strength and a weakness a rising and falling. finding the balance that best fits the need is the best we can really do. so in other words its highly dependant imo on what you are actually utilizing the stance for. i like to use the viewpoint of everything motion...

[YouKnowWho]

looks like ko uchi gari in judo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SuAzlYzpJk
the "shin bite" is different from the leg scoop (Kouchi Gari). In shin bite, you use your foot to lock behind your opponent's ankle (just like the "leg scoop"), you then put weight on that leg, drop your knee on the ground and use your shin to press on your opponent's ankle side way.

In "leg scoop", you put your foot at the same position, you then push your opponent's upper body and pull your opponent's leg toward you.

[SanHeChuan]

Since the horse stance is primarily a training thing, i think its more about a balance and stability thing. if you feet are pointing like this \ / you are NOT as stable and sturdy as doing I I straight ahead. there are many ways to destroy someones horse stance, but i personally don't like the \ / type of stance. to me it feels awkward.

the old master would actually not even do it with the toes forward but slight turned inward as in the upside down version of this \ / .

If he could turn his feet in (/ \) while in a level horse, he must of had some CRAZY flexibility.


looks like ko uchi gari in judo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SuAzlYzpJk

Not so much. The point is to Push in and get them to lock out their knee. If that doesn't make them go down then you use a ko uchi gari like move to sweep out their leg.

[SevenStar]

the "shin bite" is different from the leg scoop (Kouchi Gari). In shin bite, you use your foot to lock behind your opponent's ankle (just like the "leg scoop"), you then put weight on that leg, drop your knee on the ground and use your shin to press on your opponent's ankle side way.

In "leg scoop", you put your foot at the same position, you then push your opponent's upper body and pull your opponent's leg toward you.

okay...that sounds like a stance disruption technique I learned in longfist. dunno if I can find a clip of something similar on youtube...

[hskwarrior]

If he could turn his feet in (/ \) while in a level horse, he must of had some CRAZY flexibility.

our horse stance or Sei Ping Ma fits into the MID height level. not too high, not too low.

the gung fu practiced by my elders were strictly designed for combat since they were part of the violent periods in chinatown's history.

[YouKnowWho]

If he could turn his feet in (/ \) while in a level horse, he must of had some CRAZY flexibility.

If you can stay in a extream low and extream wide horse stance with both feet point inward, you can reduce the angle between your low leg and your foot. This will help you to develop better "shin bite" ability.


okay...that sounds like a stance disruption technique I learned in longfist. dunno if I can find a clip of something similar on youtube...
Here is a picture for "shin bite".

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/3541/kneedown2.jpg

Since your opponent can always steps that leg back, the chance to achieve this result is not high. The "shin bite" is usually used for "set up". You force your opponent to pull his leading leg back, and put all his weight on his back leg, you then attack his back leg that has all his weight on.

[SevenStar]

Here is a picture for "shin bite".

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/3541/kneedown2.jpg

yeah, that looks like the disruption.


Since your opponent can always steps that leg back, the chance to achieve this result is not high. The "shin bite" is usually used for "set up". You force your opponent to pull his leading leg back, and put all his weight on his back leg, you then attack his back leg that has all his weight on.


that sounds like (back to judo) setting up the o uchi gari (outer leg reap) with the ko uchi that I posted above:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjseUWbFXjU

the ko uchi gets him to lift the foot and step back, then you attack the rear leg.

[YouKnowWho]

the ko uchi gets him to lift the foot and step back, then you attack the rear leg.
You are right, there isn't that much difference between Chinese SC and Japanese Judo. The only difference is the "shin bite" is used when your opponent has more weight on his front leg (or he refuses to step back) and "leg scoop" is used when your opponent has less weight on his front leg (or he is willing to step back). You can only feel your opponent's weight distribution and his intention when your leg touch his leg (through a leg bridge). You then make your decision whether you should use "shin bite" or "leg scoop".

[Yum Cha]

So, which silly useless Southern Martial arts are characterised by tucking the ass?

Why, that would be Pak Mei amogst others, the art named after the guy that beat the Grandmaster of Hung Kuen to death?
:D:D:D:D

[David Jamieson]

So, which silly useless Southern Martial arts are characterised by tucking the ass?

Why, that would be Pak Mei amogst others, the art named after the guy that beat the Grandmaster of Hung Kuen to death?
:D:D:D:D

when all reason fails, throw a chair eh? lol

[RenDaHai]

The straight feet I think is often part of training because naturally the feet should be in line with the knee, but using the stance you want 'nian li' or twisting power inside the knee joint, so you have the toes foreward. This way your grip on the floor is increased. However we do always say that when it comes to stances what is comfortable is correct. I have masters who do both ways and each has their reasons. I like to turn out slightly, depending on the deepness of the stance.

Also Ma bu is often trained as Si Ping Ma or '4 straight lines ma bu'. So students keep everything straight to be on the safe side.

When it comes to the turned up hips, that is something different. Typically the hips should feel like they are floating, relaxed, not turned one way or the other. But for many people flexibility is an issue so they stick their ass out, this lets them get lower. The hips tucked in is something different. This is to keep the back straight, it is typically used in zhanzhuang to try to feel qi in the sacrum bone, and allow it to move up the spine. But personally I think this is an overcompensation and that the relaxed floating hips is preferable even during Zhanzhuang.

In Shaolin Ma bu varies massively depending on the intended application of the stance. One form may contain several types of ma bu. And you can perform the same form in smaller or larger frames.

[Yum Cha]

when all reason fails, throw a chair eh? lol

Ahhhh..... But such a good chair for throwing..... LOL