My student gets robbed!!!!

[hskwarrior]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3tYWB335XA

My student (wearing all black) enters his first Tat Mau Wong tournament since becoming my student and gets robbed. but, he landed a lovely Kwa Choy Sow Choy combo. LOL

[lkfmdc]

yet another example of why "point fighting" is absurd and useless

[hskwarrior]

yeah, its time for some san da.......unfortunately its all we got out here in sf.

[lkfmdc]

a BIG PART of the transition for us into full contact was "how the f--k are we gonna kahp and bin and so people in point"? And "why even bother with having to HOLD BACK?

Like I said, point is meaningless

[taai gihk yahn]

whaaaaaaat? I mean, C'MON, he barely contacted the guy, grazed off the headgear, the guy fell because he lost his balance, not because he got hit hard - not surprising he fell, he moved like a pregnant yak (wait, where have I heard that before...); I can't believe that he got disqualified, what a rip - total BS, and as Ross said, underscores why point fighting is just a waste of time

[hskwarrior]

I totally agree....my student spars my classmate no holding back....but they had that it to mix it up. but i believe we wasted our time aside from getting some positive comments from GM Vince Lacey who was hanging out.

San Da/san shou is the way to go. im going to look into who runs any competitions out here.

[taai gihk yahn]

a BIG PART of the transition for us into full contact was "how the f--k are we gonna kahp and bin and so people in point"? And "why even bother with having to HOLD BACK?

Like I said, point is meaningless

you don't even do kung fu, why would you worry about using kahp and bin, you sell-out...

[hskwarrior]

watch how fast they DQ him here!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lWJc2jlObE

[taai gihk yahn]

watch how fast they DQ him here!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lWJc2jlObE

MORE INSANITY - he pulled every friggin tech he threw, if he hadn't he would have KO'd the guy!!!!!

[lkfmdc]

now this is martial arts, we wouldn't want anyone to get hit or anything :rolleyes:

[taai gihk yahn]

now this is martial arts, we wouldn't want anyone to get hit or anything :rolleyes:
yeah, lol, what would be the point of THAT?

[jmd161]

:confused:

They DQ'd him for hitting too hard?


As we all know... people in the street don't hit as hard and stop when you get hurt :rolleyes:

[David Jamieson]

These kinds of tourneys are epic fail material anyway.

There's really nothing other than that in SF?

Man, that stuff sucked in the 80's, the 90's the 00's and it's still sucking ! lol

[Shaolindynasty]

You guys should have come to texas this year! There was choy lay fut everywhere. And some really solid sanda fights. I'll post my students first fight here once i get it up on youtube.

Anyway your student looks pretty solid, enter him in sanda where he belongs

[hskwarrior]

i think Tat Mau does hold San Shou matches now, but will look into it. I was flabbergasted at the rules of this tournament. they even said "any blood spilled, accident or otherwise is an IMMEDIATE DQ.

I do look forward now towards San Shou/ San Da fighting. Like everyone'said, it fits CLF more.

thanks for all of your input folks.

[David Jamieson]

i think Tat Mau does hold San Shou matches now, but will look into it. I was flabbergasted at the rules of this tournament. they even said "any blood spilled, accident or otherwise is an IMMEDIATE DQ.

bwahahahaa! That's amazing!

did they consider just opening a daycare instead? :D

[hskwarrior]

Even when my student lightened up he was still using to much force. to tell the truth my cat hits harder than what the judges were allowing.

they really should eliminate this type of fighting in a tournament and just go sanda all the way. i mean the wing chun guy sparring my classmate was just playing patty cake with him. seriously. the judges said "we're not counting your strikes, but we are looking for the most dominant fighter".......ok.....so tell me again WHY my student lost? :eek:

its a shame, so many fighters got DQ'd that day. Looking back, im embarrassed with the thought of "did i hurt you just now? are you ok?" type of sheet!

WE'RE GUNG FU PEOPLE, WE BRUISE ON THE INSIDE!!!!! :D

[hskwarrior]

Here is an clip of my student and his sisook sparring getting ready for the tourney you guys just watched. they hit each other harder in sparring at my place than the tat mau wong tournament.

my student has made big improvements since the filiming of this clip.....but positive comments and criticism are still welcome.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WP782tAa_Mc

[Drake]

You can brush someone's lip and draw blood. Am abrasion from a glove, a glazing kick, all can cause some type of bleeding. I have bled every time I have done any sort of combatives training. Usually the lip or somewhere on the face. Don't get me started on the clinch drills... battered, bruised, and bloody after that incident.

Unless you cut an artery, spilling blood is actually a minor incident. I can see a quick stop to make sure the guy is alright... but a DQ? Not right at all.

Maybe they shoud start having the bouts with both fighters in plastic bubbles, and count points when the judges think someone might have gotten hit by a technique?

[lkfmdc]

Face it, point sparring is one of the most glaring exmples of how logic and reality have left the building in TCMA. Frank's student barely touched the guy and they DQ'ed him. Isn't is supposed to be "sparring"? Better yet, isn't is supposed to be CHINESE MARTIAL ART SPARRING? Let me guess, no sweeps, no catching the kick, no throws. Were low kicks even allowed?

What you have there is an exercise in masturbation without the happy ending!

[Yao Sing]

Maybe computerize the whole thing. Have the fighters wear formfighting suits with the tracking balls on all the joints and key points. Then track their moves to control avatars on a big screen (until robotic avatars become available). That way onle pixels interact and nobody gets hurt.

[Shaolindynasty]

In a fairness, the rules do state that any drawing back of the hand past the body (preperation for sau, kup, pow) is deemed excessive so the ref and judges did respond correctly for the event.

Since Choy lay fut uses the hand drawn back as a natural chamber position we are at a disadvantage for this type of competition.

as a competitior what i always had a problem with was that you had to be the most dominate and aggressive fighter to win but you weren't supposed to hit/hurt the opponent.

[hskwarrior]

no sweeps, no catching the kick, no throws. Were low kicks even allowed?

Rules were:

no face or back of head shots
kicks were allowed
sweep to front leg only
outside thigh kick only (no inside leg kicks at all)
no take downs
no sweeps

I mean WTF!!!!!

[David Jamieson]

Rules were:

no face or back of head shots
kicks were allowed
sweep to front leg only
outside thigh kick only (no inside leg kicks at all)
no take downs
no sweeps

I mean WTF!!!!!

so, staring contests then? with the winner being the one who makes the best "i kill you" face? :p

seriously though, I would encourage poeople to simply not support these kinds of tournaments. Don't go and be vocal about why you aren't going.

as the purse gets skinny, the real will show up. :)

[TenTigers]

In a fairness, the rules do state that any drawing back of the hand past the body (preperation for sau, kup, pow) is deemed excessive so the ref and judges did respond correctly for the event.

Since Choy lay fut uses the hand drawn back as a natural chamber position we are at a disadvantage for this type of competition.

as a competitior what i always had a problem with was that you had to be the most dominate and aggressive fighter to win but you weren't supposed to hit/hurt the opponent.
not acceptable. Bring this up at the judges meetings prior to the event.
I was at a tournament where my student was fighting. He threw been/sow, Gwa/cup combos and the ref stopped the fight to issue a warning. He said the punches were wild swings. I told him that these were key strikes in our style, and then asked him what style he was a Sifu in. He was from a similar style (Hung-Ga, CLF, Jow Ga) I told him that he of all people should be familiar with these strikes, as they are key strikes in his own chosen system. He shut up pretty quick.
Stick to your guns, otherwise you train one thing in class, and then have to drop all your techniques in the ring and just straight punch and hook, and rob your students of their opportunity.

[lkfmdc]

I was at a tournament where my student was fighting. He threw been/sow, Gwa/cup combos and the ref stopped the fight to issue a warning. He said the punches were wild swings. I told him that these were key strikes in our style, and then asked him what style he was a Sifu in. He was from a similar style (Hung-Ga, CLF, Jow Ga) I told him that he of all people should be familiar with these strikes, as they are key strikes in his own chosen system. He shut up pretty quick.



of course, the obvious question, if he really was a "sifu" in one of those systems, why would you have to point that out to him? :rolleyes:

[TenTigers]

of course, the obvious question, if he really was a "sifu" in one of those systems, why would you have to point that out to him? :rolleyes:
no argument there. Status quo.

[jmd161]

otherwise you train one thing in class, and then have to drop all your techniques in the ring and just straight punch and hook, and rob your students of their opportunity.

This happens way too much!


I once trained with a sifu who changed everything to fit tournament type fighting. Everyone was a badly trained half a$$ kick boxer. Even then some of us still got DQ'd for BS reasons... It just goes hand and hand with those type of tourneys. It's always something with them... just drop them and do San Da!

[mickey]

Greetings,

hskwarrior,

The next time you send your students to a tourney like that, bring a box of tampons! That was horrific.

Instead of jumping on the sanda/san shou bandwagon, why not hold your own Choi Li Fut Tournament? It can be open or invitational. That is the ONLY way you can keep it real and you will be respected for it. You already know what sh!t is out there. Make a difference for your students and your style. I think it would be mad cool to have your students exposed to specific styles through fighting and seminars year to year. And to top it off, it will be YOUR baby. You will be setting the standard for the next generation.

mickey

[hskwarrior]

that would be nice. but with Tat Mau Wong, Doc Fai Wong, and Lily Lau......I don't think it wise for my butt to get into that arena. thanks for your input.

[mickey]

Who says you have to get into their arena? Wasn't that where your student got dissed? You are creating your OWN arena. Just start small and build. If you are friends with a few Sifu, start with them. I do not think this is a major stretch for you.

Basic suggestion for a small tournament:

Full contact tournament: Intermediate and advanced only. 3 weight divisions, 8 participants per division

Hand Form competition: Intermediate and advanced only. 6 to 8 participants per category

Weapon Form Competition: Same as Hand form competition

In each category, points are assigned to 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place, so as to determine a Grand Champion (for advanced competitors only). To encourage fighting, the accumulations of first place wins in hand and weapon forms should not match nor exceed a first place in fighting.


mickey

[hskwarrior]

i will consider that, thanks brother. I do think tournament standards needs an overhaul. this type of tourney is a dinosaur.

[GeneChing]

Sanshou is illegal here. The SF ICMAC (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=57613) ran something they called sport light sanshou, or something along those lines, I'm not sure on the exact phrasing - which was tantamount to point sparring. If I remember the term, I'll post it.

I was there on Friday. Sorry I missed you, hskwarrior. It was such a beautiful weekend in S.F. that I couldn't bring myself to spend it indoors, even if it was the Marriot.

[hskwarrior]

GENE,

sorry i missed you too. its cool. i think we'll train for san shou then go to where ever we can to fight in it. This is the reason why we mainly stuck to street fighting.

[Brule]

GENE,

sorry i missed you too. its cool. i think we'll train for san shou then go to where ever we can to fight in it. This is the reason why we mainly stuck to street fighting.

didn't realize street fighting was a venue :p

[hskwarrior]

oh yeah....the streets are a venue for the ring fighter rejects... :P

[Jimbo]

It's too bad they did not recognize the technique. Seemed like the other guy was barely clipped, but stumbled around a lot.

Oddly enough, I remember competing in the older Tat Mau Wong tourneys in the '90s, and remember them allowing a lot more contact in the continuous sparring than that. I even remember one of Tat Wong's top students knocked another guy out with either a sow choy or a kup choy, and the guy was OUT for a long time; his legs even started convulsing after several minutes. But they didn't disqualify Tat Wong's student. In fact, they gave him the match. That was only one instance.

But I do remember some selective DQing going on back then.

[Yao Sing]

I think that's on a tape I have I recorded off Satellite years ago. Tomazaki ko'd his opponent but I don't remember if it was a sow choy or what.

[mickey]

Greetings,

Can you simply do something the traditional way, like a closed door tournament? Don't tell me those things don't happen anymore.

mickey

[PHILBERT]

If I were in the audience and saw that, I'd be booing.

Sorry but that kind of crap is pathetic, throwing up the dude who can't stand up like he somehow won.

Truly pathetic.

[hskwarrior]

nah...we gonna have to go the sanshou or sanda route. if we have to leave CALI to compete, so be it.

but yeah, it was truly pathetic how they handled this tourney.

[Yum Cha]

I don't know, but like Gene said, I get the feeling its got to do with liability insurance, state boxing regulations and the like.

That was the first thing that crossed my mind when I saw they were fighting on the carpet.

...and all the gear....

Doctors, rings, ambulances on stand by, insurance, boxing comission bribes, er, ah licences...

ching ching ching

[lkfmdc]

There was a LONG time in CA when you could do sanshou. I remember being at Tat Mau's tournament and they were doing sanshou on one side of the room and the point crap on the other side. Pretty much that happened in ALL the Chinese tournaments in the 90's when I was still going

Today, for bizzarro reasons, you can't do san shou, but you CAN do contact fighting, don't kid yourself, there are hundreds of Muay Thai shows in CA right now.

In NJ, you can certainly do San Shou, or any form of contact fighting, the commission is very reasonable with amateur events, the insurance is not expensive and in fact the amateur MMA shows are making A LOT of MONEY. But I've yet to see the major CMA event in NJ have contact fighting.... instead I very recently saw a post from someone about how "bad" their students were for fighting POINT in that event :rolleyes:

Point fighting is a very good example of what is wrong with TMA these days

[hskwarrior]

There was a LONG time in CA when you could do sanshou. I remember being at Tat Mau's tournament and they were doing sanshou on one side of the room and the point crap on the other side. Pretty much that happened in ALL the Chinese tournaments in the 90's when I was still going

I remember that too....they even had Lei Tai matts........what happened?

shoot, i was even trained to be a san shou judge by Tat Mou and Dr Chi Hsiu D. Weng.

you're right, we do actually have local Muay Thai events....

[lkfmdc]

I remember that too....they even had Lei Tai matts........what happened?

shoot, i was even trained to be a san shou judge by Tat Mou and Dr Chi Hsiu D. Weng.

you're right, we do actually have local Muay Thai events....

I remember the first year Tat Mau offered Sanshou, a certain school that fashioned themselves "bad arse" we thought of course they will do sanshou... they did the point fighting instead :rolleyes:

CA truly is a wacky place, you can do full MMA with elbows and knees to the head and punching the head on the ground, but you can't do amateur san shou! That aside, you could do FULL CONTACT striking at the tournament, but they won't. Know why? because that's the way TCMA rolls these days

[hskwarrior]

because that's the way TCMA rolls these days

actually, alot of people are complaining about this now. People are saying don't blame Tat Mou, that we should blame Nick Scrima. i think these kind or tournaments are geared for kids and teenagers.

I will admit San Shou was so new to us that it took a minute for SF locals to catch on to san shou. i think it was so different than TCMA training it threw people off a bit. but, that's behind us now, i feel san shou is where we belong. It allows us all the techniques those BS tournaments restrict us from.

I remember a few years back that one of my classmates got DQ'd cause he kept doing a a downwards vertical backfist to the top of the head. the judges kept saying only back fists to the side of the head were allowed. TOTAL bs