40 Year Old Tai Chi Boxer vs Monster Brawler

[cerebus]

Here's a link to a thread where I posted pics from a recent fight I competed in at a local biker club here in Oakland, California. Though I've trained extensively in the Hsing-I & Bagua of the Tang Shou Tao, my primary art for years now has been the Cheng Man Ching branch of Yang style Tai Chi. I am 40 years old, about 5 foot 10 inches tall & weigh around 170 lbs. My opponent was in his mid 20s, over 6 foot tall, and weighed over 200 lbs (and was strong as H ELL!).

My main goal was to put into practice what I'd been training in Tai Chi all this time, including the "empty-body" evasion skills I learned from one of my main instructors.

The one let-down about the fight was that I won by disqualification because I tripped as my opponent charged at me late in the fight and he punched me while I was down. But the good thing about the fight was that even against a very big, strong, fast and determined opponent, I was able to maintain my relaxation, use my "empty-body" training, and hurt a much larger opponent who truly wanted to mess me up. Enjoy!
http://www.rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9505

[taai gihk yahn]

dude, not to take away from the obvious coolness of those pics, but there's this thing called video that's been around for some time now, just sayin...;)

srsly, despite the discontinuity, there were a lot of nice stills that showed how he was way over extended and that you "kept your work in front of you", as my first TKD teacher used to say; I hear you about using the "empty body" notion when going up against bigger / younger / stronger - seems like those principles apply across the board, in the end they are the same just the path used to get there is different...

well done, props on ya!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Allow me to take the devils advocate role for a moment:
So, all those years of IMA and some young, strong but UNSKILLED fighter took you to your limits?



Well done by the way and great work on the evasion skills, sure he was wide and wild but still takes good movement.

[David Jamieson]

uploading the photos probably took longer than the fight. :D

dude...video, it's your friend in these cases. lol

[cerebus]

Unfortunately I have NO tech savvy whatsoever. Neither does the guy who took the video (it took him 3 weeks to get the vid downloaded & burned to a disc). He also was playing with his new expensive camera and had it set to the highest definition possible, making the file monstrously huge, hence my saying "F*ck it!" and taking the simple route.

Anyway, I wouldn't say this guy "took me to my limits" by any means. He was just VERY strong, very aggressive and fairly fast for someone that size. And, interestingly enough, his lack of skill/ training is one of the things that made him (in some ways) difficult to fight. Afterall, his punches seldom came along the same lines and angles as the punches of a trained fighter, but rather from wherever his hands happened to be when he decided to punch. He was also nearly half my age, with the strength of a freakin' bull. Anyway, just thought I'd put this out there for folks to check out. From what I understand it's not everyday that a Tai Chi practitioner puts his training on the line in a fight like this... ;)

[Iron_Lung]

From what I understand it's not everyday that a ..... practitioner puts his training on the line in a fight like this... ;)

Props on your efforts! Nice to see a well documented outing and to see whos fighting with what. From the pics it looks like you had decent control of the fight throughout. Very cool to see you using Tai Chi so effectively as well.

[cerebus]

Thanks guys! :)

[Scott R. Brown]

Unfortunately I have NO tech savvy whatsoever. Neither does the guy who took the video (it took him 3 weeks to get the vid downloaded & burned to a disc). He also was playing with his new expensive camera and had it set to the highest definition possible, making the file monstrously huge, hence my saying "F*ck it!" and taking the simple route.

If you want to send me a copy of your disk and tell me what you want I will edit it and reduce it in size for you. I am south of you in San Luis Obispo.:)

[Mr Punch]

Excellent! Thanks for that Cerebus!

Quick Q: did you feel you would've had him if he hadn't have been DQed?

[cerebus]

Excellent! Thanks for that Cerebus!

Quick Q: did you feel you would've had him if he hadn't have been DQed?

Thanks. Yeah, I felt comfortable and like I was basically in control of things. I had decided to let him be the aggressor and wear him down. He was getting tired and I had just hit him with quite a few decent shots when he charged into me as I tripped. To be fair, when I looked at the video there are times where I look like I was getting winded, but I actually remember being surprisingly un-winded both during & after the fight, not sure why I was acting otherwise.

Someone in the audience later said that they thought my opponent got himself disqualified on purpose so he wouldn't have to admit to having lost to a smaller guy. I don't know, I think he was just so ****ed off that he couldn't land a clean shot that he saw it as his one chance to hit me.

Anyhoo, I'll see what I can do about shrinking the file and getting the vid available, but it might take me awhile.

From what I understand, there might be another fight event at the same venue in September. If I feel like I'm ready for it when it arrives, I might do that one too.

[Hebrew Hammer]

Kudos for stepping into the ring, don't let the haters and arm chair martial artists bring you down, he was much larger/stronger/ and aggressive albeit off balanced...I was expecting to see some Tai chi and a boxing match broke out. :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Unfortunately I have NO tech savvy whatsoever. Neither does the guy who took the video (it took him 3 weeks to get the vid downloaded & burned to a disc). He also was playing with his new expensive camera and had it set to the highest definition possible, making the file monstrously huge, hence my saying "F*ck it!" and taking the simple route.

Anyway, I wouldn't say this guy "took me to my limits" by any means. He was just VERY strong, very aggressive and fairly fast for someone that size. And, interestingly enough, his lack of skill/ training is one of the things that made him (in some ways) difficult to fight. Afterall, his punches seldom came along the same lines and angles as the punches of a trained fighter, but rather from wherever his hands happened to be when he decided to punch. He was also nearly half my age, with the strength of a freakin' bull. Anyway, just thought I'd put this out there for folks to check out. From what I understand it's not everyday that a Tai Chi practitioner puts his training on the line in a fight like this... ;)

I would agree, you don't find many TaiChi guys testing themselves and certainly not many your/our age.
What are you going to change, if anything, base don what happened in that fight?

[cerebus]

I would agree, you don't find many TaiChi guys testing themselves and certainly not many your/our age.
What are you going to change, if anything, base don what happened in that fight?

Hmmm... I've been thinking about that and the only thing I think I need to change is my aggressiveness when I attack. From so many years of just sparring lightly with friends (and so neither of us wishing to hurt each other) I got into the habit of landing a few punches, waiting, landing a few more punches, always giving my sparring partner (or in this case, my opponent) a chance to recover and get his hands back up before continuing. I need to get into the habit of going for the knockout.

Though I have to admit I wasn't going into this fight with a knockout mentality. I actually wanted it to last as long as possible so as to try out a variety of different things. But then I also wasn't expecting my opponent to be so large and aggressive. When it became clear that this was going to be a thinly veiled street-fight I should have just said "f*ck it" and gone for the knockout. But if I'd done so, then I wouldn't have such a long, cool photo series for everyone to enjoy... :D

[KC Elbows]

I would agree, you don't find many TaiChi guys testing themselves and certainly not many your/our age.


Playing devil's advocate myself here, but in CMA, aren't the majority of those who've trained and fought full contact in recent times from styles that tend towards the so-called internal, be they hsing yi, taichi, baji?

Sure, the majority of taiji is for health, but speaking solely of fighting schools in cma, the names I remember are wai lun choi, Mike Patterson, et al. The stylists I remember who placed emphasis on fighting were white crane, bak mei, spm, taiji, liuhebafa, hsing yi, all styles that either are considered internal, or train internal aspects from the start.

The styles I only rarely saw using their stuff, or trying to, in a realistic fashion were those who "save" internal aspects for later, or those who were internal in the sense of "in my head, I know what I'm doing, and if you eat meat, I will judge you while driving everywhere I go and living just as consumptive a lifestyle as everyone else."

In otherwords, have you seen more real full contact work from people doing tai chi, or choi li fut? Or Hung gar? Or Wing Chun? Considering that most people doing those styles aren't taiji hippies, and are training with fighting as at least an idea, while most taiji people aren't into fighting, the small group of taiji for fighting folk overrepresent, imo.:D

[KC Elbows]

Allow me to take the devils advocate role for a moment:
So, all those years of IMA and some young, strong but UNSKILLED fighter took you to your limits?


The variables:

1) Age: to quote Sanjuro-Ronin quoting others "Fighting is a young man's game."

2) Training history: training for full contact, especially mma, in a gongfu club until very recently was not fully possible, so the relevant training period is from the start of applying effective tools/approaches to ingraining taiji technique, not from the start of training taiji technique.

3) Training culture: Again, until recently, most gongfu schools were not familiar with the sort of support fighters require. Multiple trainers, focus on individuals fighters, less time working form and apps and more time training live using the body of apps at work, pads held by good trainers, heavy bag, etc. Things the other fighter, if fighting at a decent gym, had, but are not present to the same degree in many gongfu schools.

4) Game plan: Cerebus says he was hoping for a long match for the experience, which opens up the door for the other fighter's luck and pluck to muck things up, something he was fine choosing, but which left doors open for the other fighter that might have been closed.

5) Cerebus' taiji

6) Size

All but #5 are easily seen to be relevant to the performance as described, and, given that Cerebus won despite age, size, gameplan preference toward longer time to experience the fight over simply going for the win, likely having less team support(logistically, not socially) and having to develop his plan himself(as opposed to many fighters, who are given what they use and told how it will play out as they train), this argument might suggest that his style was an advantage more than a disadvantage, and that his understanding of his style is well thought out by him, not followed by rote based on another's notes.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hey, as you know I give PROPS TO ANYONE fighting full contact.
The thing is, and I don't wanna sound like I am getting on Cerebus, but the fact is that an untrained fighter gave him all he could handle for as long as the fight lasted.
Now, I MAY be being harsh when I say "all he could handle", but going on the pics we saw, what I see is One guy trying to KO another and the other trying NOT to get Ko'ed.
Cerbus won because his opponent was DQ, not because he beat him.
Now, by the sounds of it, it seems that he was gonna "punch himself out" and I am sure that cerebus would have finished the job for him, but the fact that we know are these:
The bigger and stronger and less experienced fighter dictated the pace.
He was more commited to the KO
He lost because he got DQ for hitting cerebus while cerebus was down.
The rest we have is cerebus's view of things.

That said, I think what cerebus did was great and I admire him doing it.
Anytime we step into the ring we can get hurt, bad and he had the cojones to do it.

[KC Elbows]

Hey, as you know I give PROPS TO ANYONE fighting full contact.

When an mma guy enters a fight, he gets props, win or lose, unless he's a braggart, and that's about it.

I'm pretty sure no one gets on him about his choice of style or training methodology, at least you never see this, but some might give pointers.

An ima guy fights, and he's got to take part in devil's advocate arguments about style?

See my point?


The thing is, and I don't wanna sound like I am getting on Cerebus, but the fact is that an untrained fighter gave him all he could handle for as long as the fight lasted.
Now, I MAY be being harsh when I say "all he could handle", but going on the pics we saw, what I see is One guy trying to KO another and the other trying NOT to get Ko'ed.
Cerbus won because his opponent was DQ, not because he beat him.
Now, by the sounds of it, it seems that he was gonna "punch himself out" and I am sure that cerebus would have finished the job for him, but the fact that we know are these:
The bigger and stronger and less experienced fighter dictated the pace.
He was more commited to the KO
He lost because he got DQ for hitting cerebus while cerebus was down.
The rest we have is cerebus's view of things.



Cerebus is not arguing otherwise on most of those counts. It's one fight, and he did it: were he not a gongfu guy, would we be having this conversation? I say not.

If you want gongfu to rise to the occasion, guys fighting and learning from this are far more useful than guys questioning what they're doing who have the experience to advise instead, but choose otherwise.

I'm not getting on you, I'm suggesting that if you want a host of styles that need more realistic representations to gain those, you will never get that by judging the style based on a lack of realistic training in the style or force them to when they are being progressively more realistic, and Cerebus is trying to do that, which is something most fighters don't have on their plate. He has not bragged, he seems open to criticism, and so, he will likely learn from the experience, and it will be an opportunity to see better taiji.

We've had mma practitioners who have trained some time and yet to win one fight, by DQ or otherwise, in their prime, which is not to dog on them, but to illustrate that everyone is in the same boat.

Most style arguments are stock arguments that themselves lack realism, and they tend to do nothing to promote realistic usage of style, only realistic usage of styles deemed realistic, which is totally circular and fruitless.

As I said, the internals are viewed as the poster child of bad gongfu, but the names of the biggest and most succesful proponents of fighting gongfu are names like Tim Cartmell, Mike Patterson, mostly internals guys. So, where does that leave the stock argument, except in a zone of cognitive dissonance?

A guy fought using his style, he shouldn't have to justify his studies, that was the point of the ring, and he seems intent on going further.

We don't make modern man answer for cro-magnon man before he can continue to progress on his own way. Why make those in gongfu open to more extensive full contact approaches and methods answer for those who don't?

Were he a mma guy, and he lost, or won by dq, has it been your habit to criticize the methodology of his school? I've not seen you do that, and I tend to get a lot from your posts on here and smaller forums, so I'm fairly familiar with them, in a non-stalkerish kind of way.:D

Some might say "well, you know what you're getting at a mma gym", but this isn't true by default, research is just as vital, there's plenty of boxing gyms that champs scoff at for their lack of real training, same in mma, but individual threads saying "I fought" by mma practitioners simply don't have to answer these same questions, even when they maybe should.

/rant

amhitaba:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hey, no doubt you make some very valid points, add Max Chen to that list too, another Taiji guy.
We don't see many 'external" guys from kung fu fighting, outside of sanshou.

As for MMA guy not getting ragged on, you seem to forget that I think MMA is a great testing venue but not that great a system of combat, ALTHOUGH it i sgeting much better.


An ima guy fights, and he's got to take part in devil's advocate arguments about style?
Of course he does, as would any other TCMA guy, even more so when he makes it ( His style) an issue.

[KC Elbows]

Anyone entering into fights has their style, and all are banking on it, some for informed reasons, some not.

The point is, the ones asking for an account of this tend to not ask those coming from one side of things.

Some might call for modesty if the performance is not good, but I've never seen the person's training environment questioned, except when it's a traditionalist.

Now, I know I'm new to the forums and all...:D

BTW, what does NSFW mean? Is it Northern Shaolin Fukien Weapons?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Anyone entering into fights has their style, and all are banking on it, some for informed reasons, some not.

The point is, the ones asking for an account of this tend to not ask those coming from one side of things.

Some might call for modesty if the performance is not good, but I've never seen the person's training environment questioned, except when it's a traditionalist.

Now, I know I'm new to the forums and all...:D

BTW, what does NSFW mean? Is it Northern Shaolin Fukien Weapons?

IF I train in a system that is NOT KNOW for its fighting ability and I do NOT do well or even if I DO well, I should be question as to how much THAT system effected my performance.

A boxer going into a fight and knocking a guy out with a left hook will not and should not be questioned about IF his boxing background helped him.

[KC Elbows]

A boxer going into a fight and knocking a guy out with a left hook will not and should not be questioned IF his boxing background helped him.

Fixed that for you.;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Fixed that for you.;)

Leave my lousy grammar alone, its my trademark !
:p

[KC Elbows]

Leave my lousy grammar alone, its my trademark !
:p

You're grammar was correct.:p

[cerebus]

Hello. First, let me start off by saying that I certainly am okay with criticism, especially when it's logical and well-reasoned as it seems to be here.

But maybe a little insight into my own reasoning behind this match will demonstrate why I don't entirely agree with some points that have been made. For one, I really don't train Tai Chi for the purpose of fighting competitive matches. On the contrary, I fought this match specifically for the purpose of testing the effectiveness of what I've been training in Tai Chi. My own goals in Tai Chi begin with the health benefits, with self defense as an intrinsic part of proper training, but being of secondary importance to me (afterall I don't exactly go out & get into fights very often).

As to whether I accomplished what I set out to do, I feel I did. For one, I wanted to test the Tai Chi concepts of absorbing & neutralizing incoming force (using the hands & forearms while while moving away from the incoming force) as well as the Empty-Body skills of either evading a strike entirely or rolling with the force of the strike if it can't be avoided. My opponent had the size, strength and intent to put an average person of my size & strength into the hospital, yet my worst injury was a slightly swollen lower lip. My lack of any other injury was due to my having done exactly what I'd been trained to do.

Then, on the topic of offense, I had no desire to even try to knock my opponent out. That's not why I was doing it. But of course I did want to know that I could deliver relaxed, powerful strikes that could hurt even an attacker like him. I did this repeatedly. Admittedly I did not follow up with more aggression and try to knock him out, which in retrospect I probably should have done, but again it wasn't what I was wanting to do.

For any who may think that a person must "beat" his opponent to "win" in a self defense situation, I'd say that I really can't agree with that. Real self defense is simply about preventing an attacker from causing you injury to the best of your ability to do so. If you are attacked and you can go home without any real injury, you won. I don't say this as an "armchair" theorist. I was a US Army Military Policeman from 1988 til 1992, and later a corrections officer (a.k.a. "prison guard") at a civilian prison. In most situations "beating" one's attacker is never even a thought, just surviving is enough.

I don't train to build a fighting record or collect trophies. Neither do I train with the idea of becoming a lethal "streetfighter". I train in Tai Chi because it keeps me healthy and gives me usable combat skills. I like the traditional Chinese martial arts because I appreciate them as cultural arts, historical arts, and actual day-to-day useful training that helps me in all areas of life.

Thanks!

;)

[cerebus]

what I see is One guy trying to KO another and the other trying NOT to get Ko'ed.
Cerbus won because his opponent was DQ, not because he beat him.
Now, by the sounds of it, it seems that he was gonna "punch himself out" and I am sure that cerebus would have finished the job for him, but the fact that we know are these:
The bigger and stronger and less experienced fighter dictated the pace.
He was more commited to the KO
He lost because he got DQ for hitting cerebus while cerebus was down.
The rest we have is cerebus's view of things.

Just to give a more specific response to some of this, you actually saw me succeed in not getting kayo'd. I wasn't just "trying", I knew exactly what to do and how to do it, and I did it.

To say that my opponent "dictated" the pace is to make it sound like I was at his mercy. The principle of Tai Chi defense is to let the opponent lead and then to follow. In other words, let him attack, make him miss, then exploit the openings that leaves. I would hardly see that as a failing on my part.

He was certainly more committed to the KO, and I'm glad for this. It increased the reality and pressure of this form of testing for me. It would have been a waste of time for me to have stepped into the ring with a less committed opponent.

He did lose by DQ, but he WAS losing anyway. Unless you count aggressively running into my fists while punching thin air to be "winning".

And yes, I fully understand if people take what I say with a grain of salt, afterall it is my own view of things.

[cerebus]

PS: Just so ya know Sanjuro (though I think you probably already realize it) I do realize where you're coming from and I'm not taking your comments negatively (I know you're putting them out there as constructive criticism). Just thought it might be a good idea to clarify my own purpose as regards the fight and the points you made... :)

[Knifefighter]

My opponent had the size, strength and intent to put an average person of my size & strength into the hospital, yet my worst injury was a slightly swollen lower lip. My lack of any other injury was due to my having done exactly what I'd been trained to do.

Sounds to me like the fact that you tripped and he got disqualified for hitting you while you were down means that you more than likely would have been put in the hospital were this a real self-defense situation.

[goju]

Sounds to me like the fact that you tripped and he got disqualified for hitting you while you were down means that you more than likely would have been put in the hospital were this a real self-defense situation.

yeah he should have just stuck to flailing in the air like you did with the wing chun guy to prove his manliness:D

[David Jamieson]

You're grammar was correct.:p

very funny...:p

[sanjuro_ronin]

PS: Just so ya know Sanjuro (though I think you probably already realize it) I do realize where you're coming from and I'm not taking your comments negatively (I know you're putting them out there as constructive criticism). Just thought it might be a good idea to clarify my own purpose as regards the fight and the points you made... :)

I know that you know that I know that you know.
:D

[KC Elbows]

Sounds to me like the fact that you tripped and he got disqualified for hitting you while you were down means that you more than likely would have been put in the hospital were this a real self-defense situation.

Glad you provided the perfect example of someone who "respects" those who enter the ring in a lopsided fashion, lauding those who do so from your perspective of what arts one should focus on despite their shortcomings vs. treatment of those working styles that don't fall into your approved list.

I've seen you comment on enough fights over the years to say that, while you advise those from the styles you like, you do the above for the rest.

[KC Elbows]

IF I train in a system that is NOT KNOW for its fighting ability and I do NOT do well or even if I DO well, I should be question as to how much THAT system effected my performance.


To reiterate, no you don't. I'm pretty sure that when you were training for fights, refining your techs and training for the fights held a much higher position than explaining to other what you're doing. And it always should.

If I make some claim about what I'm doing, then I should answer for it.

If I simply use what I'm doing, it's my business.

To put this in scientific terms, one does not have their initial idea peer reviewed, one has the end research, after much USEFUL data is collected in a lab environment that they feel supports their conclusion, peer reviewed. Criticism of attempts by gongfu people to apply their style seems to start before they've even done it, evidence is used of people who never pressure tested much to suggest that the style is inferior to styles where people did(training methodology does not equal style, it informs it, but the style exists separate from the methodology in the context of fighting), evidence of full contact cma is ignored when, between sanshou and certain esteemed(largely internal style:D) teams, there is sufficient positive evidence.

Here's how this would go if this approach were used in science:

Einstein: You know, I'm suspecting something about the nature of time and space.

Knifefighter: Silly theoretician! Everything was defined years ago, if your idea was worth anything, someone obviously would have found it. LARPER!

Einstein: Um, I haven't even collected the data yet, what's with the sand in your *****?

Knifefighter: Why bother collecting data, why not just follow a real and established method? Stupid dummy!

Nameless Nutrider #1: Time and space! What a moron!

Nameless Nutrider #2: I know, you should hear his quaint theories on light!

Einstein: I'm gonna go work in the lab, have fun.:rolleyes:

[Knifefighter]

Glad you provided the perfect example of someone who "respects" those who enter the ring in a lopsided fashion, lauding those who do so from your perspective of what arts one should focus on despite their shortcomings vs. treatment of those working styles that don't fall into your approved list.

I've seen you comment on enough fights over the years to say that, while you advise those from the styles you like, you do the above for the rest.

LOL... if he says his goal is to evade and keep his opponent from damaging him, but then he tripped and fell and the opponent was able to hit him while he was down, he didn't really meet that goal, did he?

He gets my props for competing and testing himself. He gets no props for then saying his evasion skills were successful when he fell on his ass and his opponent struck him when he was down.

In scientific method terms, the null hypothesis was shown to be true, but he then attempted to rationalize a different conclusion.

[cerebus]

Sounds to me like the fact that you tripped and he got disqualified for hitting you while you were down means that you more than likely would have been put in the hospital were this a real self-defense situation.

Then it's lucky for me the streets don't have loose canvas covers over them. And is there a "real self-defense" rule that says I must stop fighting if I'm on the ground? I guess I hadn't heard about that...

[Knifefighter]

Then it's lucky for me the streets don't have loose canvas covers over them. And is there a "real self-defense" rule that says I must stop fighting if I'm on the ground? I guess I hadn't heard about that...

Last time I checked, "the street" often has more obstacles to trip over than does the ring.

Also, last time I heard, most standup fighters were going on about how you "never want to go to the ground" in the street.

But, hey, if your definition of successfully using you standup to avoid a guy means you trip and fall on your ass and he then strikes you when you are down, who am I to argue with you. You are welcome to your own definition, even though it's certainly wouldn't be mine.

[cerebus]

Also, last time I heard, most standup fighters were going on about how you "never want to go to the ground" in the street.

I'm impressed with how much strange thinking you were able to fit into that one phrase. How does "not wanting to go to the ground" have anything to do with continuing to fight while there? You seem to be saying that once someone is on the ground they must just stop fighting. That's an odd thing for anyone to say.

And you also seem to be trying to say that the ring having a loose cover which I tripped on is indicative of my lack of skill in my chosen martial art. Again you're making no sense. Even the best fighter can get messed up by a random outside factor such as an unseen obstacle, and I never claimed to be the best fighter ever. You don't seem to understand that I'm making no claims to invincibility. I simply did what I did and shared it with you.

[David Jamieson]

Cerebus, I think there's just a lot of trolling in knifefighter. :D

Seriously.

anyway, good for you for taking the risk, and it is a risk to full contact bang at your age, or my age, or over 40 in general.

you probably learned more about yourself in context to the art you study and I am thinking that was the point of the exercise?

[cerebus]

Cerebus, I think there's just a lot of trolling in knifefighter. :D

Seriously.

anyway, good for you for taking the risk, and it is a risk to full contact bang at your age, or my age, or over 40 in general.

you probably learned more about yourself in context to the art you study and I am thinking that was the point of the exercise?

Thanks. Good to see that at least a few people got the point.

[KC Elbows]

LOL... if he says his goal is to evade and keep his opponent from damaging him, but then he tripped and fell and the opponent was able to hit him while he was down, he didn't really meet that goal, did he?

He gets my props for competing and testing himself. He gets no props for then saying his evasion skills were successful when he fell on his ass and his opponent struck him when he was down.

In scientific method terms, the null hypothesis was shown to be true, but he then attempted to rationalize a different conclusion.

Here, let me translate to how you would do this for an mma guy:

Before you laud your evasion work, you need to recognize that you slipped in your footwork and ended up in a bad spot.

To which, I'm pretty sure Cerebus would say something like:

Good point.

BTW, I was kidding when I mischaracterized your conversations with Einstein. I am aware that, barring the horrible and debilitating effects of dementia, you likely remember your conversations with the man, and I would never normally disrespect an elder, you being on a fixed income and all.

On that topic, how is mma in Florida?

[taai gihk yahn]

I think that what one needs to do is to put this in context of asking how many times were u able to actively evade the other guy before u slipped and the match was ended? In other words, if u consciously evaded 25+ strikes before u lost ur footing, I think that constitues a relative sucess on terms of u achieving ur particular objective (idk how many u evaded successfully; any idea?); my sense is that u were trying to practice a specific thing here (evasion) and as such were not emphasiNg things like initiating an attack or countering after the evasion as much as u might have done if I were in a street fight; so again, what I got from ur initial post is that u were activle focusing on evasion and so to compare it to a street fight wid be a bit of a stretch if u were not looking to work initiations
and counters to the same degree; so I see it kinda like dAles video w rashun where he was working one specific set of skills and thus for the same reason to say that he was owned by rashun wouldn't make sense either

[cerebus]

I'm not sure exactly how many punches he threw (alot) but I do know roughly how many landed. 1 punch landed cleanly, and 2 or 3 landed glancingly or while I was moving away from the punch, the rest I either evaded entirely, deflected, or caught with a hand or forearm.

In contrast, having thrown almost as many punches overall, I missed maybe 3 or 4 with the remainder landing cleanly.

[cerebus]

The thing I find interesting is that people act kinda like a single punch by a standing opponent on a person who has tripped is some kind of deadly fight ender. When I was a Military Cop, we responded to bar fights on numerous occasions that lead to one of us landing on the floor, and sometimes getting punched or kicked while down. Guess what ended up happening? The person who fell got back up, and continued to break up the brawl.

One thing that the mind-set of people like "knifefighter" shows is that alot of the folks who post on internet forums (especially those who preach most loudly about "Well, if it was in the street...") have basically no REAL experience in the hypothetical situations they like to talk so much about...

[David Jamieson]

every fight is utterly different.