chamber hands in Sil Lim Tao

[Heisenberg]

The following is a question that I've been pondering lately, that I'd like to hear others input on:

Why do we chamber at our sides, near the floating ribs, in Sil Lim Tao? Surely this was a conscious decision in the design of the 1st form. But, we don't otherwise advocate parking a hand so far outside of our center. Here are some thoughts that I've had:

1. There are times when a hand might end up there, for example after a pulling lop sau. That hand should then seek to return to center.

-- I find this unlikely to be the reason why this chamber exists in the form. While maintaining center is certainly an important lesson in Sil Lim Tao, regaining center after it is lost seems more like a concept from a latter form.

2. If shifting were not omitted from the 1st form, then a covering hand in center could easily be off of the line connecting my central axis to my opponents. As I shift back my hand would re-acquire this line.

-- Again, this seems an unlikely reason. I post it here just because it was part of my thinking process. Not because I think it may be the answer that I'm seeking.

3. Because Sil Lim Tao is broken down such that only one hand is executing a technique at a time, this chamber could be just intended to keep the other hand out of the way (otherwise this other hand would need to be in motion to avoid interference).

-- This seems like a reasonable explanation, but I find that I am entirely unsure if it is the true explanation.

If anyone has any feedback, I would appreciate hearing what you think. Particularly if you think that the reason lies entirely outside of the 3 above possibilities.

[Eric_H]

Hello,

I learned that the elbows being drawn back was an expression of "Jiang Dai Lik" or elbow sinking/carrying capacity. However, that is more of an energetic concept than a structural one. Structurally, i think it has more to do with what points are being protected as many points in the mid-rib area and armpit aren't very fun to be hit in.

[k gledhill]

door # 3 ! :D each hand is drawn and individually learns to intersect the centerline in front of the sternum with the wrist, then the elbow.

Drawing isnt done while fighting.

The height of the hands is more important, so they travel from the same plane to intersect the line, creating forearm intercepting angles of tan/jum/wu, corresponding to the wrist/elbow of each arm.Elbows move to the line like pendulums, hands are held high by the sides before the arm/elbow, moves to the line.

Each hand starts from the x'ed wu sao position in the beginning from side drawn position then to x the line with wu sao wrist then bring elbow to line ...etc...

Then Man sao....controlling the elbow while the arm is already extended along the centerline. Tan/jum

Everything is based on making a punch along the line, intersecting it, using the natural intercepting strike lines at angles to the opponent.

The way we use the centerline starts from a drawn position in a basic little set.

the opening moves of the forms arent high / low gaun sao ;) its wu sao / man sao along the line before every form to create a line to train on.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Are you learning by yourself, or do you have a sifu?
The chamber is actually just below and in front of the arm pit. About even with your nipple. SLT is a form that programs you to make all these moves at center line. You do it from a neutral stance, one side at a time to give you the ability to use either side. It is not a fight form, but a simple form that allows you to practice and become familiar with all your weapons and blocks while staying on center. Of course if you are actually defending yourself you would want to defend your center, but this not the case.

[Liddel]

Try teaching a student SLT without this action - youll end up having to explain to them, they must keep the chest flat by not over extending with either shoulder and to also avoid hunching the shoulder not in use.

Or teach them the action and these things automatically fall into place as well as giving them an elbow attack option when grabbed from behind.

Just my 2 cents.

DREW

[LoneTiger108]

3. Because Sil Lim Tao is broken down such that only one hand is executing a technique at a time, this chamber could be just intended to keep the other hand out of the way (otherwise this other hand would need to be in motion to avoid interference).

Learning how to utilize each hand/arm individually would be the natural reason for holding a fist at the side whilst the other is in motion. We referred to the posture as po kuen and an explanation of why the fist is held high (or higher than more traditional forms like Hung Kuen) was also given.

The huen sau and 'pull back' idea ends each set in SLT too (on the right side), which in turn explains why we originally learnt 6 sets rather than the more modern 3 'sections'.

Definitely had nothing to do with having a cr4p! :D

[donbdc]

SYEUNG SAU KUEN

"Kuen Chau Yue Lot, But Teep Tai" - "The fists are held next to the ribs, but do not touch the body" - holding the fist back in a chambered position without resting it on the body causes an isometric training effect on the chambered arm, working the muscles required to send it out by holding it back for extended periods.

Combined with Jut Sau structure, creates Leen Lop Sau - jerking Cross Grab. Used to trap - pulling him to the hip puts the opponent into a position of Facing/Centerline Disadvantage - "Chiu Meen Jui Ying" ("Straight-on Facing and Chasing"). As a Gunboat would try to "cross the T" so that its guns pointed at the enemy while his pointed out to sea . Develops "Hoang Jai Ging" - "Controlling Energy." Pull the opponent to your hip to borrow his power. Example of "Grab and Strike" - first of five types of Hand Trapping. Double Sau Kuen from form is not used as Double Cross Grab - this would leave you vulnerable to a headbutt, so Lon Sau/Sau K "Cross-up Trap" should be used instead. Pulling the opponent's top arm across his body and over his other arm prevents him from Headbutting you, while allowing you to Headbutt him. Double Cross Grab with both arms pulling his arms towards your hips would allow him to use your own energy against you by moving into his own Headbutt. Double Sau K is only used as a double straight-across grab; could be a Chee Gyeuk double pull into a kick, skip knee or other short-range technique. Could be used if he Double Grabs your wrists > Double Sau Kuen/Headbutt. Also used in defense vs. rear choke - Grab his choking arm for air, choose leg of open side of choke, kneel on that knee/double Sau Kuen/Chum Sun to drive his head into floor. Also used (single or double) to get air when he has Guillotine Choke. Double Sau K can be used to trap ankle in knee-level Takedown with your shoulder just above his knee. Blend Sau Kuen with Tan Sau "snag" idea for Gwot Sau Scooping Arm Carry. Hidden backward Sau Jahng, Soang Jahng and downward Chum Jahng elbow blocks and strikes; Soang block vs Shovel Hook or Roundkick. Double Sau Kuen is used in Groundfighting to help get elevation in Day Ha Jing Gyeuk by raising and then supporting the lower back and hips during the kick.

Don Berry

[chusauli]

The returning hand to the Yee Ji Kim Yeung Ma Jong Sao at the "chambered position" is for you to draw a breath in and sink the "Hei Chum Dan Tien", which further activates the main three channels Ren, Du, and Chong.

When you inhale, you sink into your heels, allowing you to "swallow" the opponent's incoming energy - then setting him up for more strikes while he is off balance.

[LoneTiger108]

"Kuen Chau Yue Lot, But Teep Tai" - "The fists are held next to the ribs, but do not touch the body" - holding the fist back in a chambered position without resting it on the body causes an isometric training effect on the chambered arm, working the muscles required to send it out by holding it back for extended periods.

One reason behind this movement and posture. I agree. But the rest you speak of are more application based, so what other purpose is there other than applications in fighting?


"The returning hand to the Yee Ji Kim Yeung Ma Jong Sao at the "chambered position" is for you to draw a breath in and sink the "Hei Chum Dan Tien", which further activates the main three channels Ren, Du, and Chong.

Other than Roberts example! ;)

[donbdc]

and an explanation of why the fist is held high (or higher than more traditional forms like Hung Kuen) was also given.

The huen sau and 'pull back' idea ends each set in SLT too (on the right side), which in turn explains why we originally learnt 6 sets rather than the more modern 3 'sections'.

Sounds like you were already given the answer you seem to be looking for

[Heisenberg]

Thank you all for participating in this thread. There were many interesting responses, some I hadn't considered. I will need to ponder these further.

To Lee Chiang Po, who asked "Are you learning by yourself, or do you have a sifu?", the answer is yes. But he is wise enough (or humble enough) to admit that he doesn't have all of the answers. And he has told me that, no matter how long or how hard I study Wing Chun, I will never have them all either. But of course, he encourages me to keep looking.

To all, I realize that there are elements of the form that are there for their teaching benefit. Some moves or sequences may not be expressed exactly as they would be in fighting. My question arose because I was unclear on the teaching benefit to chambering the hands outside of center, elbows pulled so far back. An elbow strike to the rear seams like a reasonable application of this movement, but I find it unlikely to be why it was inserted in the first form (many times). However, I will confess that I was thinking about it largely in terms of its structure. Furthering the range of elbow energy is an interesting idea. As were the ideas about isometric tension and breathing.

Again, thanks all for sharing.

[tigershorty]

a lot of good explanations for 1 thing... sounds like the wing chun to me. multi-tasking ;)

[LoneTiger108]

Sounds like you were already given the answer you seem to be looking for

I wasn't really searching for answers, just another reason behind the posture. Of course I have been told many things apart from what I have 'suggested' :D but I always like to see if anyone shares a similar view.

For example, WHY does the fist not touch the body?

I'm sure that's it's not just for isometric purposes...

[Phil Redmond]

With a low chamber you can do thoracic breathing, which is bad. With the high chamber you have to do abdominal breathing from the diaphragm, which is good. :)

[anerlich]

With a low chamber you can do thoracic breathing, which is bad. With the high chamber you have to do abdominal breathing from the diaphragm, which is good.

The high chamber (and holding it away from the body) open the lung also. Then tension from holding it back and away, rather than having it hang there like a piece of rump steak, is to remind the practitioner that the arm is "alive", even if not currently in use.

Other than that I tend toward the "just keep it out of the way" school of thought. Not everything has to have a deep and profound explanation veiled by secrecy and antiquity.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Holding it in the chamber also builds tension - and the release of the tension (energy) by releasing the tan sao very slowly helps to build a conscious awareness of the movement of your....internal energy....your...chi.

[imperialtaichi]

Holding it in the chamber also builds tension - and the release of the tension (energy) by releasing the tan sao very slowly helps to build a conscious awareness of the movement of your....internal energy....your...chi.

I'm agree with Victor.

The chamber hand and tan sau works together with the toe-in stance to train the "tendons" of the entire body. The exact ways of doing it is very complex and you need your teacher to guide you carefully. When done properly it help turn your muscles to behave like spring iron. People who know how to do it properly would not discuss it in depth over the net, just like top chefs would not disclose all their cooking methods.

Cheers,
John

[anerlich]

People who know how to do it properly would not discuss it in depth over the net, just like top chefs would not disclose all their cooking methods.


I guess you are implying there should be a Wing Chun reality TV equivalent of "MasterChef".

[imperialtaichi]

I guess you are implying there should be a Wing Chun reality TV equivalent of "MasterChef".

Now that I would watch! ;)

[Phil Redmond]

I'm agree with Victor.

The chamber hand and tan sau works together with the toe-in stance to train the "tendons" of the entire body. The exact ways of doing it is very complex and you need your teacher to guide you carefully. When done properly it help turn your muscles to behave like spring iron. People who know how to do it properly would not discuss it in depth over the net, just like top chefs would not disclose all their cooking methods.

Cheers,
John
What if you don't use the toe in stance?

[Phil Redmond]

I'm agree with Victor.

The chamber hand and tan sau works together with the toe-in stance to train the "tendons" of the entire body. The exact ways of doing it is very complex and you need your teacher to guide you carefully. When done properly it help turn your muscles to behave like spring iron. People who know how to do it properly would not discuss it in depth over the net, just like top chefs would not disclose all their cooking methods.

Cheers,
John
What if you don't use the toe in stance? Try breathing with the chamber low like in Hung Ga. Then try it with the chamber high. It's harder to use you chest. No secret, just common sense.

[bennyvt]

I don't go for all the breathing stuff. You should be able to beathe properly when doing any move. Any physio, personal trainer or coach could teach you this.
Main reason for having the hand back
* The withdrwing is an elbow stike, this is to teach straight lines and later when pivoting you go in a direct straight line.
*As a tool to keep your posture. The more you push with one most people let the other shoulder go back. Concentrating on pulling the elbow back and shoulder forward keeps your facing and is very important when pivoting or being pulled etc.
*The different ways of doing the fist, clenched fist helps to improve wrist strength (while in a isometric way), relaxed fist teaches muscular control by activating you arm muscles while keeping the fist relaxed (can be used latter for a more speedy punch but less solid
*In the latter sections it is an extreme place to bring your tan sao back into centre from (I call it the "leaning on the bar" move)
Ill try to remember some more and get back to you.:D

[Phil Redmond]

I don't go for all the breathing stuff. You should be able to beathe properly when doing any move. Any physio, personal trainer or coach could teach you this........
Most people don't breath properly. So for some the "breathing stuff" is important.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shallow_breathing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diaphragmatic_breathing

http://www.cchs.net/health/health-info/docs/2400/2409.asp?index=9445

http://medicalcenter.osu.edu/PatientEd/Materials/PDFDocs/dis-cond/respirat/copd/diaph-br.pdf

[bennyvt]

I meant more that it shouldn't matter where your hands are. Proper breathing should be taught to any person in an athletic field.

[Phil Redmond]

I meant more that it shouldn't matter where your hands are. Proper breathing should be taught to any person in an athletic field.
Ok, I agree with that one. :)

[imperialtaichi]

What if you don't use the toe in stance? Try breathing with the chamber low like in Hung Ga. Then try it with the chamber high. It's harder to use you chest. No secret, just common sense.

Different Kung Fu styles emphasize on different things; there are no right ways or wrong ways just depending on what we want to achieve.

There is no such thing as a bad pizza :rolleyes:

[bennyvt]

except an aussie pizza. Which people in australia voted for egg on a pizza, just figgin stupid.:eek:

[imperialtaichi]

except an aussie pizza. Which people in australia voted for egg on a pizza, just figgin stupid.:eek:

LOL

Hey, if there are people practicing Kung Fu by hanging weight on their balls, whom am I to judge the "egg on pizza" until I try? I mean the pizza, not the weight on balls. :)

[LSWCTN1]

What if you don't use the toe in stance?

genuine question, as i know things like this can sometimes get unnecessarily heated.

is this your personal 'stance' on your wing chun stance, or is it the teachings learnt from your sifu?

if from your present sifu, did any previous sifu teach the same.

io ask becaus the way i understand it myself is that you dont ordinarily need the 'toe-in' stance ONCE you have achieved a certain level by practising WITH a toe-in stance... if that makes sense?

would you teach toe in or toe out to new students?

[LoneTiger108]

This was a good little thread. :)

I'm wondering if anyone has any more answers to my earlier question, why the chambered hand does not touch the body?

As for the 'toes in' stance, is this another variation of kim yeung (gripping goat) or something?? The expression is never one I would or have used...

[k gledhill]

the ygkym conditions us to keep feet turned inwards ....this acts a hip stabilizer for structure integrity during exchanges of varying force vectors of figting...
can be shown by applying pressure to the stance in certain ways....try turning the lead foots toes outwards and you feel the hip become loose and out of the chain of force ...
vt is harnessing the force to make a punch

[LoneTiger108]

the ygkym conditions us to keep feet turned inwards ....

So you agree? Yee Gee KIM YEUNG Ma. ;) I've debated my interpretation of the yee gee too, but people seem to have varied opinions or translation.

As for the hands of the body scenario I've been asking about, I will ask you to hold your knives by your side and see if you can touch your ribs with the side of the fist. The handle itself will rest on the rib. :D

This, from my limited experience, is one 'main' reason I was told the chambered hand does not touch the body.

[bennyvt]

If it touches the body it is easy to rest it. Keeping in away from the body (when learn one of my seniors told me when asked how far,"about a cigerette width"). Means you are constantly holding it up. This when done for longer periods is more of an isometric training tool.

[Knifefighter]

If anyone has any feedback, I would appreciate hearing what you think. Particularly if you think that the reason lies entirely outside of the 3 above possibilities.

It's just one of the maladaptive things that happens when you do unrealistic stuff that has no relationship to what the actual purpose is.

[LoneTiger108]

Am I to presume that both bennyvt and Knifefighter have not heard that the reasoning behind the chambered hand is also related to the knife? It would be interesting to hear what Heisenberg has to say.

Personally, I find this very practical information ;)

[Knifefighter]

Am I to presume that both bennyvt and Knifefighter have not heard that the reasoning behind the chambered hand is also related to the knife? It would be interesting to hear what Heisenberg has to say.

Personally, I find this very practical information ;)

Which, if true, simply adds one more layer of maladaptiveness to the unrealistic mess.

[YungChun]

Most Karate holds the chamber exactly the same way as does Chun...so it's not unique to Chun or a "knife art".. If you rest the fist against the body it wrecks the alignment and energy state of the arm, which totally changes the dynamic of the position.

[TenTigers]

Certain positions are training tools for developing students, designed to correct or prevent bad habits.
In keeping the fist chambered, yet not touching the body, helps the student develop awareness of his alignment-elbow behind the fist. If you "rest" on the body, your mind also rests, meaning that you develop a lackadaisical mindset.
This could result in elbows drifting outward causing misalignment in the strikes.
I'm not saying that it is impossible to develop lazy structure while still maintaining correct chamber, but the average student will have the desire and awareness to do it properly. There will always be exceptions-especially when teaching to the masses.
Certain situations, such as a tight withdrawing of the hand during a counter trap, require you to pull all the way back.
Chamber can also teach the maxim,"The hand never comes back empty," which may or may not be a WCK maxim,(depending on your lineage) but holds true to many Fukien Siu-Lum styles.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'll be honest with you, if the form is a "development" one like sanchin, samchien, I can understand that whole "full range of motion" thing, but if the form is supposed to be a "combat oriented" one, whatever that means, then it is another bad habit.

[LoneTiger108]

I'll be honest with you, if the form is a "development" one like sanchin, samchien, I can understand that whole "full range of motion" thing, but if the form is supposed to be a "combat oriented" one, whatever that means, then it is another bad habit.

I think that trying to create applications from a form that is designed as a development tool, which I feel SLT is at the beginning, then you start to walk a very dangerous path. So I agree. Maybe as we grow with SLT the expressions can be 'used' effectively, but not without proper development first.


Chamber can also teach the maxim,"The hand never comes back empty," which may or may not be a WCK maxim,(depending on your lineage) but holds true to many Fukien Siu-Lum styles.

I think this links into previous examples of a use for the chambering hand, pulling someone in after lapsau. As long as you turn pien san.


Most Karate holds the chamber exactly the same way as does Chun...so it's not unique to Chun or a "knife art"..

I disagree. Wing Chun fist is chambered in mid-chest, indicating that we're using more fluent/light stepping and high stances. Karateka tend to chamber at the hip, as do most styles that use larger stances and long arms. This too, if you've studied Karate and or Laido, is the position for holding the sword and taught so.

Wing Chun imho has origins as a 'knife art'. It's just that many students never get taught knives first-hand unfortunately.

[YungChun]

I disagree. Wing Chun fist is chambered in mid-chest, indicating that we're using more fluent/light stepping and high stances. Karateka tend to chamber at the hip, as do most styles that use larger stances and long arms. This too, if you've studied Karate and or Laido, is the position for holding the sword and taught so.


The karate I did had the exact same chamber we did in Chun.. The chamber was essentially in the armpit. Some karate does chamber the hip, the Oki styles seem to use the higher chamber more often than not..

When fighting even JKA Shotokan karate side faces and chambers at the solar-plexus, which is much closer to armpit height than hip height.

IMO there is no special connection between this chamber and the knives and personally I think the hip chamber is off.

Most chambers I see are lazy... When done right the arm/wrist is level, the fist tight and the energy is "full" with muscles stretched, this dynamic is simply not seen in hip or belt chambers....

In SLT one side chambered is full the other empty... The beginning of each hand/arm using/having different energy states simultaneously.....one should not 'forget' the chambered hand while the other hand goes through the move changes... Poor chambers in SLT show that the person has forgotten that hand as he moves all his focus to the other one moving...

[k gledhill]

the training has each hand trained equally, drawn to start and finish as a beginning and end of a drill.
We chamber high so we intersect our centerlines as we make the elbow act like a pendulum sliding close to the body and 'behind' the fist/forearm, to further create the structure with hips later.

No applications...:D

When we fight we dont chamber the hands, same with knives. Not sure where the chambered knife idea comes from ? we dont do it in form or fighting with knife.

[anerlich]

It would be interesting to hear what Heisenberg has to say.


Especially since he's dead. Unless he was in Schrodinger's box, along with that darn cat.

[LoneTiger108]

When we fight we dont chamber the hands, same with knives. Not sure where the chambered knife idea comes from ? we dont do it in form or fighting with knife.

:D Like I said, unfortunately not many people have been taught the knives, an in all honesty I don't think that any would have been taught how to 'use' them. That's up to everyone own interpretation of the hand work.

Do you salute before your form? A 'Cheng' posture chambers to the left before the fist palm is extended. This IS the start of the knife I know. ;) Only been taught a little though, but was taught at least.

[k gledhill]

:D Like I said, unfortunately not many people have been taught the knives, an in all honesty I don't think that any would have been taught how to 'use' them. That's up to everyone own interpretation of the hand work.

Do you salute before your form? A 'Cheng' posture chambers to the left before the fist palm is extended. This IS the start of the knife I know. ;) Only been taught a little though, but was taught at least.


you hold the knives either side in each hands but not chambered as bare hands ...

foot works different too...aggressive foot work for gettin ginto a target asap to X them ..
and evasive footwork for covering large amounts of space to avoid a wild swinging weapon coming back at you....

[LoneTiger108]

you hold the knives either side in each hands but not chambered as bare hands ...

No I don't do that. I hold both in the left hand and draw from the cheng posture.


foot works different too...aggressive foot work for gettin ginto a target asap to X them ..
and evasive footwork for covering large amounts of space to avoid a wild swinging weapon coming back at you....

I wouldn't say my footwork 'changed', but may have become a lot more 'crane' like. As you mention, when a pole is swinging at you you gotta move quicker than a half step in CK!! BUT I would have to add, my stepping work originates from our mui faa mook jong work which was taught prior to the 108. Part of my Siu Lim Lien.

This helped me understand what was happening in CK/BJ/Pole/Knives. And is why our logo to this day has a plum blossom ;)

Then again, I'm also a flag waving lunatic, so what would I know?? :rolleyes::eek::D

[k gledhill]

I mean both knives held together vertcal left...then right then center...
footwork is like TWC without T step to make wide flank/attack to the nearest body part....arm .
so wider angling triangle steps.
with reverse to defend ...

the knife footwork is shown late in the system to avoid confusing with bare hand fighting footwork.

tactically the same but with subtle angling using bare arms ...like pole broken in 1/2 .

the footwork of the advanced VT fighter incorporates ' whatever' footwork is required....no rule.

so wide ' box' steps or small shuffle, all depends what your attacking.

[bennyvt]

Why would you do something for so long when the only reason is after years of training you learn the knives and you already know how to hold them against your side. Sounds pretty dumb to me. Sounds more like one of those "it also does this" ideas.
I have been thinking and slowly changing the way I do that part anyway. When looking at the different reasons. I have listed some and when you look at the postions in a muscular training way it could be changed.
The stretch: After a short while (after 30 secs) the effect becomes pretty noexistant.
The elbow strike: Great first movement then doesn't matter how you hold it.
Posture: As long as the shoulder and elbow is back it should still be able to teach you the posture, faceing, isolate the other arm etc.
Isometric training for the arm: As this is a range of motion problem (only being strong about 7 degrees of range away from the position you hold), the arm is in an unnatural postion. This would could be changed by either moveing it to different postions to strengthen the whole range, or pick a certain range where being able to hold postion is needed. ie the end of punch, tan sao, bong etc.
Grip strength: This would be better to constantly pump the fist or hold just for certain periods of time.
Obviously I don't teach that as the system should be taught as is but I have been thinking about the reasons and how to better train that effect.
Any thoughts.

[k gledhill]

As mentioned, some things are simply redundant, so no need to give them a reason other than to not hang your arm down by your side as you train the other one.
looking for applications will lead you to wash hands too. :D

[LoneTiger108]

Why would you do something for so long when the only reason is after years of training you learn the knives and you already know how to hold them against your side. Sounds pretty dumb to me. Sounds more like one of those "it also does this" ideas.

I can see your point here, but really? You're telling me that you can't see what I'm saying? It's more about what it 'indicates'. In other words, do you practise SLT with the knives? If not, why not?! ;)

I still see people practising 1970's versions of chisau that hasn't changed or progressed over 30 years, when the original was limited to 2 posture rotations. I still see older practitioners doing SLT after 30 years and nobody calls them dumb! It all has purpose imho.

[k gledhill]

The knife form ISN'T like SLT form....#1 reason ? answers below please :D

[Graham H]

I'm looking forward to these answers as well. Practicing SLT with the knives completely destroys what the form is correcting and teaching.

GH

[LoneTiger108]

I'm looking forward to these answers as well. Practicing SLT with the knives completely destroys what the form is correcting and teaching.

GH

An interesting comment. What is the form correcting and teaching exactly, according to your experience?


The knife form ISN'T like SLT form....#1 reason ? answers below please

I am fully aware of this man! :rolleyes:

I'm not asking for a comparisson, I'm suggesting that the SLT can be practised with the knife, just as it can also be drilled on the wooden man, AND practised with the pole.

Bit off subject, so maybe a new thread is wise :cool:

[k gledhill]

An interesting comment. What is the form correcting and teaching exactly, according to your experience?



I am fully aware of this man! :rolleyes:

I'm not asking for a comparisson, I'm suggesting that the SLT can be practised with the knife, just as it can also be drilled on the wooden man, AND practised with the pole.

Bit off subject, so maybe a new thread is wise :cool:


I share GH views on the SLT and what its developing.

SLT cant be done with knives .....the wooden dummy, re-enforces the SLT/CK bubble of bare handed striking attacks with BG .

SLT with pole ? :confused: or do you mean knives 'n' pole ? sure knives and pole are used together to train each other.

What is the first thing you do in each of the forms that you dont do with Knives ever...?

threads meld like the 'Borg' :D who cares.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I was always told that what is typical of TCMA is that the comfortable way is often the correct way. It is a place that one can put his/her hands and it isn't rigid or stiff. It also provides an easy reference point so that people aren't confused about where to put the hands.

[t_niehoff]

What a fascinating discussion.

[wtxs]

What a fascinating discussion.

Haven't heard from you for awhile, welcome back. As you can see ... our house is still a mess!

[LoneTiger108]

Haven't heard from you for awhile, welcome back. As you can see ... our house is still a mess!

Your house? :D

[wtxs]

Your house? :D

:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p

[Heisenberg]

Am I to presume that both bennyvt and Knifefighter have not heard that the reasoning behind the chambered hand is also related to the knife? It would be interesting to hear what Heisenberg has to say.

First a disclaimer, I have never been taught the knife form. Having said that, I find it unlikely that the reason that chamber hands do not touch the body in SLT, an open hand form, is based on the fact that they could not if they held knives. If I had a full arm cast on, I could not bend my arm at the elbow. That does not mean that I wouldn't if the cast were removed.


In keeping the fist chambered, yet not touching the body, helps the student develop awareness of his alignment-elbow behind the fist. If you "rest" on the body, your mind also rests, meaning that you develop a lackadaisical mindset..


one should not 'forget' the chambered hand while the other hand goes through the move changes... Poor chambers in SLT show that the person has forgotten that hand as he moves all his focus to the other one moving...

I believe the purpose of holding the chamber hand away from the body is captured in the above quotes from TenTigers and YungChun. It helps train the Wing Chun practitioner to remain mindful of that hand, to keep it alive, even when it appears to be idle. This helps train mental focus (focus in multiple places at the same time) as well as body awareness and coordination (a central theme of SLT).

I also find it plausible that it could have been included for purposes of isometric toning. Though, in my opinion, it seems more beneficial as training of mental focus

[LoneTiger108]

First a disclaimer, I have never been taught the knife form. Having said that, I find it unlikely that the reason that chamber hands do not touch the body in SLT, an open hand form, is based on the fact that they could not if they held knives. If I had a full arm cast on, I could not bend my arm at the elbow. That does not mean that I wouldn't if the cast were removed.

A good analogy! Very Warriors Two, or was it Prodigal Son??


I believe the purpose of holding the chamber hand away from the body is captured in the above quotes from TenTigers and YungChun. It helps train the Wing Chun practitioner to remain mindful of that hand, to keep it alive, even when it appears to be idle. This helps train mental focus (focus in multiple places at the same time) as well as body awareness and coordination (a central theme of SLT).

I agree too with the mindful intent, as this was highlighted throughout a beginners practise. As far as the isometric ideas go, I think it's more of a Hei (Chi/Qi) thing to be honest, which would also benefit greatly from using the weight of a knife imho.