Question to Kung fu practitioners about a peculiar Karate fist!

[Hardwork108]

There is an old way of forming a Karate fist that was demonstrated in Master Gichin Funakoshi's classic master text, "Karate Do Kyohan", which was presented to the Japanese Emperor in 1935, I have had this book for a few years now and this fist formation has always intrigued me.

The type of the fist shown in the book has the index finger straight (not pointing!), while the other three fingers are closed.

http://fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=215

This type of fist formation is rare nowadays, but seems to be practiced by certain Shotokan and Okinawan stylist karate-kai.

I am very curious to know from anyone here has encountered such a fist formation in a KUNG FU style.

[taai gihk yahn]

There is an old way of forming a Karate fist that was demonstrated in Master Gichin Funakoshi's classic master text, "Karate Do Kyohan", which was presented to the Japanese Emperor in 1935, I have had this book for a few years now and this fist formation has always intrigued me.

The type of the fist shown in the book has the index finger straight (not pointing!), while the other three fingers are closed.

http://fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=215

This type of fist formation is rare nowadays, but seems to be practiced by certain Shotokan and Okinawan stylist karate-kai.

I am very curious to know from anyone here has encountered such a fist formation in a KUNG FU style.
only other place I've seen it was a friend who did Shorin Ryu (Kobayashi or shobayashi, I forget which); never seen it in any of the TCMA systems from which Okinawan karate was influenced by; obviously Funakoshi got it from his Okinawan Te roots and carried it over into Shotokan; he also also used to do a fist w/middle knuckle extended similar to what we do in some Lama Pai techniques - if you do that fist correctly, the index finger is also extended - maybe it was that fist with the middle knuckle flatened, to "hide" the technique?

[Dragonzbane76]

actually yes...

karate term i believe was called "chicken foot"

Pai lum has it also but Pai lum is also a close relative of kempo and karate.

In pai lum it is called Prince dragon. There are other finger tech. that orient with dragon as well within the style.

[Hardwork108]

only other place I've seen it was a friend who did Shorin Ryu (Kobayashi or shobayashi, I forget which); never seen it in any of the TCMA systems from which Okinawan karate was influenced by; obviously Funakoshi got it from his Okinawan Te roots and carried it over into Shotokan;

I am wondering wether this fist is an Okinawan invention or wether this Té fist formation was influenced by TCMAs. It would be interesting to find a valid link, that is if such a link exists.


he also also used to do a fist w/middle knuckle extended similar to what we do in some Lama Pai techniques -

Are you referring to a dragon fist?


if you do that fist correctly, the index finger is also extended - maybe it was that fist with the middle knuckle flatened, to "hide" the technique?

I don't think that is the case, because a similar fist to what you have described is depicted in Funakoshi's, Karate Do Kyohan. Assuming that I have not misunderstood your description of this technique, the technique in the book is referred to as Ippon-ken or one knuckle fist, which more or less looks like a Dragon Fist.

Anyway, as far as the book is concerned, the implication seems to be that this (the fist in question), is the main karate fist, and the contact points are the index and middle finger, first and second finger knuckles. So, there are four points of contact instead of the usual karate, two knuckle one. The book contains a front view of the fist that depicts these points of contact, unfortunately I have not been able to find a web link to the front view picture.

Personally speaking, I find this a valid technique and can imagine the damage that it will do if it is practiced to a point of expertise. That is why I am more than a little surprised that I have not come across it in TCMAs, but then the TCMAs are a huge area of study, so it is possible that this formation exists in some CMA style (s). Of course, it is also possible that this fist is peculiar to Okinawan karate.

It would however be good to know for sure, one way or the other.

By the way, now that you mentioned Lama Pai, did CTS ever share his opinions, regarding effectiveness of shotokan or Karate in general? I ask because, I would like to compare (or contrast) his take to that of other TCMA masters, regarding the Okinawan and Japanese fist arts.

[Dragonzbane76]

Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn
he also also used to do a fist w/middle knuckle extended similar to what we do in some Lama Pai techniques -

Are you referring to a dragon fist?

that's what it was called in Pai lum. But don't know about Karate. I'm sure it is present in some form in the system.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Looking at the original drawing, I would say that it has been misinterpreted. I am seeing a gung fu fist. Actually, a three point fist. I have used it for over fifty years. You do not strike with the flat fist, but with the last three large knuckles of the fist. The middle, ring, and pinky finger.

[TenTigers]

There is an old way of forming a Karate fist that was demonstrated in Master Gichin Funakoshi's classic master text, "Karate Do Kyohan", which was presented to the Japanese Emperor in 1935, I have had this book for a few years now and this fist formation has always intrigued me.

The type of the fist shown in the book has the index finger straight (not pointing!), while the other three fingers are closed.

http://fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=215

This type of fist formation is rare nowadays, but seems to be practiced by certain Shotokan and Okinawan stylist karate-kai.

I am very curious to know from anyone here has encountered such a fist formation in a KUNG FU style.
I have seen this fist formed the same way in Ryukyu Kempo as well.
I have never however, heard an explanation for it.
It could be the same thing as the woman cutting off the end of the roast when she made it. Her daughter asked her why they always do it, and she told her that it was how her mother taught her to cook a roast.
When she asked her grandmother, it turns out that when they were younger, their stove was so small, the only way they could fit a roast into it, was to cut the end off!
Perhaps The original teacher broke his index finger and couldn't bend it.

[taai gihk yahn]

I am wondering wether this fist is an Okinawan invention or wether this Té fist formation was influenced by TCMAs. It would be interesting to find a valid link, that is if such a link exists.
yeah, it's weid; I'd say that Funakoshi put it in Shotokan to mess with the Japanese, but you find it in other Okinawan systems as well; OTOH, it could have been a TCMA teacher messing with his Okinawan students, "earmarking" what he taught them as a way of identifying who had learned his watered-down version versus the real thing!


Are you referring to a dragon fist?
some people call it that;


I don't think that is the case, because a similar fist to what you have described is depicted in Funakoshi's, Karate Do Kyohan. Assuming that I have not misunderstood your description of this technique, the technique in the book is referred to as Ippon-ken or one knuckle fist, which more or less looks like a Dragon Fist.
yes;


Anyway, as far as the book is concerned, the implication seems to be that this (the fist in question), is the main karate fist, and the contact points are the index and middle finger, first and second finger knuckles. So, there are four points of contact instead of the usual karate, two knuckle one. The book contains a front view of the fist that depicts these points of contact, unfortunately I have not been able to find a web link to the front view picture.
In my first two TKD schools, I learned that contact was with all four knuckles and we didnt use a straight index finger, so idk why that would be necessary to do in order to get that contact


Personally speaking, I find this a valid technique and can imagine the damage that it will do if it is practiced to a point of expertise.
personally, it doesn't really make sense to me from a biomechanical point of view and really has no influence on the actual striking surface itself, there's no reason it should necesarilly cause more damage than a standard fist; TBH, I think it makes the fist less stable overall;


That is why I am more than a little surprised that I have not come across it in TCMAs, but then the TCMAs are a huge area of study, so it is possible that this formation exists in some CMA style (s). Of course, it is also possible that this fist is peculiar to Okinawan karate.
of course it might exist, but in 25 yrs. of TMA, including direct experience w/about 10 TCMA styles and indirect with many more, I've never seen it; nor has anyone I've talked to who has had similar, if not more, experience; and I'm talking some of the more obscure southern systems as well here;


It would however be good to know for sure, one way or the other.
good luck there


By the way, now that you mentioned Lama Pai, did CTS ever share his opinions, regarding effectiveness of shotokan or Karate in general? I ask because, I would like to compare (or contrast) his take to that of other TCMA masters, regarding the Okinawan and Japanese fist arts.
bearing in mind that he fought them in WWII, CTS, as w/most TCMA old-school types, had a rather dim view of most things Japanese and Okinawan...

[taai gihk yahn]

Perhaps The original teacher broke his index finger and couldn't bend it.
like the taiji teacher (no names...) who every time he did Brush Knee w/the left foot forward, he jerked his left shoulder up a little due to an old injury, and all his students emulated this...

[goju]

wouldnt bother with that as it doesnt seem to be stable at all

[Yao Sing]

Perhaps The original teacher broke his index finger and couldn't bend it.

That was the first thing that popped into mind when I asw it.

[Jimbo]

I've seen that fist formation in an old karate book I have somewhere. I always thought the reason for it was that some people, when they make a standard fist, might have trouble closing the index finger evenly with the other fingers. Otherwise, I don't see any advantage to it over a normal fist.

[Yao Sing]

I have long fingers and could never make a flat fist, my index finger sticks way out, but using this alternate style fist I get a nice flat 2 knuckle striking area.

Anyone with long fingers should try it out.

[ittokaos]

It's made that way because it makes more sense considering the way that karatekas punch.

Allow me to elaborate.

As the majority of us know, Karate guys punch(generally) with the knuckles of the index finger and the middle finger. When one makes a Karate fist(a kung fu one too) the practitioner makes sure that the tip of his middle finger is resting against his Laogong point(a pressure point in the middle of your palm that lines up with the tip of you middle finger when making a fist) . From what i understand, this is made first.

This position will then make the other fingers "rise" so to speak and can affect the stability of the punch (I suppose). Unless special attention is given to the index finger, the knuckle will tend to "poke out" a bit more than the others and will not give the puncher the "box shaped" fist that is preferred when striking with the first two knuckles. By resting the index finger in this way, the box shaped fist is made and not special attention will have to be given to the index finger as it will now rest lower and on virtually the same plain as the rest of the fingers. I suppose that not paying attention to the index finger would also reduce the tension in the arm and make it a "snappier" punch.

I hope that helps and that it makes sense.

peace

[kfman5F]

To the best of my knowledge, it is called the chicken heart fist which is used in Mok Ga. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ed Parker of the American kenpo fame, used this one too.
It was probably a case, like mentioned before, of ONE teachers unique method (for whatever reason) that got passed on because it was so different.

[taai gihk yahn]

To the best of my knowledge, it is called the chicken heart fist which is used in Mok Ga. :)
that's interesting - I've done a little Mok Ga, my sihing did a lot of it, he learned it from my sifu who studied personally with the head of the system at one point, and it never came up - maybe it's a particular line of it? I know Mok Ga has Ginger Fist, which is pretty weird, but no CHicken Heart; what is your source of info for this?