This is what happens when you pull guard

[Ultimatewingchun]

There's a thread on the UG (mma.tv) with this title - started by the brother of the guy you'll see in the following vid.

I suggest reading the thread...this is really serious stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2zb0Krxx3Q

Here's some of what his brother posted so far:


"My little brother got into it with a guy and was stabbed. He was trying to avoid conflict and did not want to strike the guy in order to stay out of trouble. He almost choked the guy out until he pulled out a pocket knife. To top if off they were both charged with battery!

The cops came to the hospital to get his statement. He had lost a lot of blood and was on pain meds by the time they got there. His statement was "he stabbed me". The other guy told them my bro started the fight. I was told that bc of conflicting stories they were both charged and it will have to be sorted out in court. The head investigator is coming to my brothers place today to get his statement. He didnt sound too happy about the way this was be handled when I spoke to him yesterday. He said my brothers charges may be dropped and the other guys may be increased. Ill keep u guys posted. Thanks for the well wishes."

[sanjuro_ronin]

There's a thread on the UG (mma.tv) with this title - started by the brother of the guy you'll see in the following vid.

I suggest reading the thread...this is really serious stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2zb0Krxx3Q

I don't have volume, what happened? stabbing I guess?

[Ultimatewingchun]

I just added to my first post, Paul. Take a look.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I just added to my first post, Paul. Take a look.

What does that have to do with "pulling guard" ?

[jmd161]

This is a problem with any street confrontation not just grappling or pulling guard in this case. You have to be leery of who you're facing and what they might have. Then again... you can't go into a confrontation being Mr. Nice Guy IMO either...

I think pulling guard is a bad idea in a street fight because you really don't know if there are friends of the guy waiting to jump in. It could just as easily have been a friend of his doing the stabbing!

I can't speak for other areas but here in Miami very few street fights are one on one. It's usually one guy facing 2-3 more that he had no idea were involved.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There are times that being on the bottom MAY be safer than being on top, mounting the other guy.
On the bottom you can use him to shield yourself, you can't do that on top.
On the bottom you can see your attackers and they have an obstacle, him.
On top your back is exposed and others have a clear shot at you.
Just saying that fights tend to be shades of gray and are rarely B&W.

[m1k3]

This is a problem with any street confrontation not just grappling or pulling guard in this case. You have to be leery of who you're facing and what they might have. Then again... you can't go into a confrontation being Mr. Nice Guy IMO either...

I think pulling guard is a bad idea in a street fight because you really don't know if there are friends of the guy waiting to jump in. It could just as easily have been a friend of his doing the stabbing!

I can't speak for other areas but here in Miami very few street fights are one on one. It's usually one guy facing 2-3 more that he had no idea were involved.

Why in every thread like this it is assumed that the grappler is by himself. Are grapplers social pariahs? Do we all have vile breath and body odor?

Also, why is it assumed that anyone who trains BJJ is going to jump guard at the drop of a hat?

Lastly, anyone who is halfway smart in using a knife is going to cut or stab you before you even know he has one.

What this tells me is that getting into street fights is a bad idea if you can avoid it.

[Yao Sing]

That sportfight mentality is great for the ring, not so good for the street.

MMA gyms should add some type of Chin Na if they really want to be complete fighters.

Everyone's so worried about the forms guys getting a false sense of security thinking they can defend themselves they fail to see their own.

[m1k3]

Actually in Human Weapon, the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program program, Jason did a nice double leg takedown and took mount only to be stabbed by the training knife the Jarhead had in his back pocket.

You fight someone with a knife, you get cut. Life isn't a freaking kung fu movie.

[m1k3]

That sportfight mentality is great for the ring, not so good for the street.

MMA gyms should add some type of Chin Na if they really want to be complete fighters.

Everyone's so worried about the forms guys getting a false sense of security thinking they can defend themselves they fail to see their own.

What? Chi Na is going to keep him from getting cut?!? If there is more than one or they have a weapon you are usually screwed. It doesn't matter what you train.

[Yao Sing]

No, the idea is to keep him from getting the knife in his hand. If you wait until after he pulls it it's too late, better to just run.

I'm talking about focusing more on controlling or disabling the hands.

[m1k3]

No, the idea is to keep him from getting the knife in his hand. If you wait until after he pulls it it's too late, better to just run.

I'm talking about focusing more on controlling or disabling the hands.

The problem is that if he is even half way decent with a knife you won't know he has one until you have been cut.

[Frost]

No, the idea is to keep him from getting the knife in his hand. If you wait until after he pulls it it's too late, better to just run.

I'm talking about focusing more on controlling or disabling the hands.


if you cant pull of chinna against a resisting unarmed opponent (and so far no one in MMA, shanshu or any other contact arena has shown it to work) how are you going to do it against someone with a weapon

if you think you can pull it of please post just one clip of someone using chinna on their own against an unarmed fighter.....


so you want to control him and stop him using the knife...for that you need to control his limbs and limit his movement....sounds alot like clinch fighting and greco to me

[Frost]

There's a thread on the UG (mma.tv) with this title - started by the brother of the guy you'll see in the following vid.

I suggest reading the thread...this is really serious stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2zb0Krxx3Q

Here's some of what his brother posted so far:


"My little brother got into it with a guy and was stabbed. He was trying to avoid conflict and did not want to strike the guy in order to stay out of trouble. He almost choked the guy out until he pulled out a pocket knife. To top if off they were both charged with battery!

The cops came to the hospital to get his statement. He had lost a lot of blood and was on pain meds by the time they got there. His statement was "he stabbed me". The other guy told them my bro started the fight. I was told that bc of conflicting stories they were both charged and it will have to be sorted out in court. The head investigator is coming to my brothers place today to get his statement. He didnt sound too happy about the way this was be handled when I spoke to him yesterday. He said my brothers charges may be dropped and the other guys may be increased. Ill keep u guys posted. Thanks for the well wishes."

no thats what happens when you get into an unarmed fight with someone carrying a knife...

tell me what should he have done then, wing chuned his way out of the arguement:rolleyes:

[Frost]

Why in every thread like this it is assumed that the grappler is by himself. Are grapplers social pariahs? Do we all have vile breath and body odor?

Also, why is it assumed that anyone who trains BJJ is going to jump guard at the drop of a hat?

Lastly, anyone who is halfway smart in using a knife is going to cut or stab you before you even know he has one.

What this tells me is that getting into street fights is a bad idea if you can avoid it.

stop making sense please you will give this forum a bad name:)

[Frost]

That sportfight mentality is great for the ring, not so good for the street.

MMA gyms should add some type of Chin Na if they really want to be complete fighters.

Everyone's so worried about the forms guys getting a false sense of security thinking they can defend themselves they fail to see their own.

true that sport mentality of beating the guy as quickly as possible and training against real resisting opponents is just o useless for the streets

actually ask any sports guy and they will tell you what they suck at...getting beat all the time comes with the territory....but at least we know what works and what is b*ll**** fantasy stuff (like most of the standing chin na stuff out there)

[Yao Sing]

if you think you can pull it of please post just one clip of someone using chinna on their own against an unarmed fighter.....

Ha ha ha like someone is going to have a video camera handy when they're assaulted or mugged on the street or in an alley. You guys kill me with this video mentality.


so you want to control him and stop him using the knife...for that you need to control his limbs and limit his movement....sounds alot like clinch fighting and greco to me

Apparently the guy getting stabbed failed to do so and instead was playing UFC in the real world. That's my point.

[Frost]

There are times that being on the bottom MAY be safer than being on top, mounting the other guy.
On the bottom you can use him to shield yourself, you can't do that on top.
On the bottom you can see your attackers and they have an obstacle, him.
On top your back is exposed and others have a clear shot at you.
Just saying that fights tend to be shades of gray and are rarely B&W.

god **** it stop making so much sense its not needed round here:eek:

[Yao Sing]

true that sport mentality of beating the guy as quickly as possible and training against real resisting opponents is just o useless for the streets

Complete first rounds with little to no action never happens in the UFC. Same with holding on watching the clock waiting for the round to end. Get real and quit arguing for the sake of arguing.

[m1k3]

Ha ha ha like someone is going to have a video camera handy when they're assaulted or mugged on the street or in an alley. You guys kill me with this video mentality.



Dude, you're really not that thick are you? Get on the mat with a friend, grapple at near full speed and pull off some of your Chin Na, then get on the mat with a grappler and try it again.

No streetz, no muggings and no bullsh1tt.

The reason I put it this way is you might be able to pull it off on someone who doesn't know what they are doing but I doubt it against even a 1 year white belt in BJJ.

Sorry but Chin Na is just not high percentage moves.

[sanjuro_ronin]

god **** it stop making so much sense its not needed round here:eek:

I'll let you in on a little secret...
In military H2H, the guard is used as a "shield", from there, holding on to your opponent, you shot him dead, use him as cover and shoot your way out from under him.
That is one of the things taught, now, it is a tad more complex than what I just stated obviously, but the jest of it is there.

One of the key principles of Sha Jia Quan:
The only bad position to be in is the one you DON'T know how to fight out of.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I will say this though, NOT adressing the issue of an armed attacker ( inf not in reality at least in potential) is one of the major problems of MMA and many other sport combat arts.
That said, it is also the problem of almost every other MA.

[Lucas]

sorry to hear about your buddy. glad he came out of it alright, hopefully the charges go in his favor.

on the topic:

my #1 rule about dealing with real life 'street' confrontations. Always expect the guy to have a concealed weapon. If you approach an altercation expecting a knife, or possibly a gun, you'll keep yourself in the right frame of mind to de-escelate, escape, or take the initiative if it goes that far. most of my life encounters have been with gang bangers or wannabe's and those ****ers generally carry something, or have friends. a friend is a deadly weapon in a street encounter.

I generally have a blade on me if im out of the house. So why wouldnt the other guy?

[sanjuro_ronin]

sorry to hear about your buddy. glad he came out of it alright, hopefully the charges go in his favor.

on the topic:

my #1 rule about dealing with real life 'street' confrontations. Always expect the guy to have a concealed weapon. If you approach an altercation expecting a knife, or possibly a gun, you'll keep yourself in the right frame of mind to de-escelate, escape, or take the initiative if it goes that far. most of my life encounters have been with gang bangers or wannabe's and those ****ers generally carry something, or have friends. a friend is a deadly weapon in a street encounter.

I generally have a blade on me if im out of the house. So why wouldnt the other guy?

Smart man.

[Lucas]

and i got a **** good sprint ;)

[Yao Sing]

If he would have focused more on and dealt with the guys hands there wouldn't be an opportunity to pull a knife. You guys need to get out of your own little world a bit.

Instead he ignored them and played sport fight and got stabbed.

[m1k3]

If he would have focused more on and dealt with the guys hands there wouldn't be an opportunity to pull a knife. You guys need to get out of your own little world a bit.

Instead he ignored them and played sport fight and got stabbed.

Which hand? The one waving around in front of your face or the one quietly flipping open a lock back knife, the one you can't even see let alone grab.

Btw, is he right handed or left handed? Even if you knew do you know which hand has the knife if he has one?

In the case the OP presented he didn't even pull the knife until well into the fight.

Sorry but your fantasy fu braggadocio just doesn't cut it. Pun intended.

[sanjuro_ronin]

FYI, the first priority when you have someone in your guard is control of their hands.

[jmd161]

There are times that being on the bottom MAY be safer than being on top, mounting the other guy.
On the bottom you can use him to shield yourself, you can't do that on top.
On the bottom you can see your attackers and they have an obstacle, him.
On top your back is exposed and others have a clear shot at you.
Just saying that fights tend to be shades of gray and are rarely B&W.

You know I've heard that so many times and not once has it ever proved true in any multiple on one street fights I've ever seen. I've seen the guy on top get caught by a few wild blows from his friends but, the guy on bottom ALWAYS got it bad!



Why in every thread like this it is assumed that the grappler is by himself. Are grapplers social pariahs? Do we all have vile breath and body odor?

I never said the grappler was alone... I said I didn't think pulling guard in a street fight was smart! You never know what the guy has or if he has friends. You right the guy on bottom could have had friends... doesn't mean they'll be in a position to help or assist!


Also, why is it assumed that anyone who trains BJJ is going to jump guard at the drop of a hat?

It's assumed he pulled guard because that's the title of this thread!


Lastly, anyone who is halfway smart in using a knife is going to cut or stab you before you even know he has one.

Well, he obviously did that!


What this tells me is that getting into street fights is a bad idea if you can avoid it.

This I agree with but you can't avoid some confrontations...

[sanjuro_ronin]

You know I've heard that so many times and not once has it ever proved true in any multiple on one street fights I've ever seen. I've seen the guy on top get caught by a few wild blows from his friends but, the guy on bottom ALWAYS got it bad!
It amazes me that in ALL the fights you've seen, the guy on the bottom never had any friends...

I recall VIVIDLY the result of a former co-worker of mine that got the mount and was doing fine, untill he got kicked in the face, got KO'd and lost 2 teeth, got a broken nose AND his lips all stiched up.
This happened outside of Joker nightclub in Toronto in 98.

Yes, I name places and time of the events I see, I am freaky that way.

[jmd161]

It amazes me that in ALL the fights you've seen, the guy on the bottom never had any friends...

I never said that they had no friends... friends are not always in a position where they can help you! I've seen a person get jumped and when his friends tried to help they were out numbered! Anyone planning to jump someone is going to attempt to scope out the person and who he's with before they jump you!

Or is that only here in Miami?


I recall VIVIDLY the result of a former co-worker of mine that got the mount and was doing fine, untill he got kicked in the face, got KO'd and lost 2 teeth, got a broken nose AND his lips all stiched up.
This happened outside of Joker nightclub in Toronto in 98.

Yes, I name places and time of the events I see, I am freaky that way.

I recall vividly at the Inferno lounge night club in Ft. Lauderdale my best friend and his cousin were jumped in the mens room by four guys...what they didn't know was they had another cousin with them that had a gun (yes a gun inside the club) end of the story four guys laying on the mens room floor with bullets in them!:p

Again, like I said you never know what the person may have or whose with them!

[Yao Sing]

Which hand? The one waving around in front of your face or the one quietly flipping open a lock back knife, the one you can't even see let alone grab.

Btw, is he right handed or left handed? Even if you knew do you know which hand has the knife if he has one?

In the case the OP presented he didn't even pull the knife until well into the fight.

Sorry but your fantasy fu braggadocio just doesn't cut it. Pun intended.

Sorry dude, not going to play the 'what if' game with you.

You just go ahead and play your UFC game in the street and maybe you'll be the next one showing the stab wounds on video. I'm sorry about the guy getting knifed but hopefully it will shake some of these guys out of their fantasy fights and into reality.

Now on a lighter note we had a major brawl across the street (kind of long story) between 2 houses at night. Two brothers were involved in it and one of the other guy had one brother on the ground. The other brother turned and grabbed a stick and turned back beating the guy with it only to find out while he turned away his brother had reversed the situation so he was beating the crap out of his own brother. Now that's funny.

[Lucas]

that is funny.

[Knifefighter]

LOL @ thinking the guy pulling guard won't pull out a blade and jam it into the other guy's neck as he is pulling him down into the guard where he can't get away.

[Knifefighter]

Sorry dude, not going to play the 'what if' game with you.

You just go ahead and play your UFC game in the street and maybe you'll be the next one showing the stab wounds on video. I'm sorry about the guy getting knifed but hopefully it will shake some of these guys out of their fantasy fights and into reality.

Now on a lighter note we had a major brawl across the street (kind of long story) between 2 houses at night. Two brothers were involved in it and one of the other guy had one brother on the ground. The other brother turned and grabbed a stick and turned back beating the guy with it only to find out while he turned away his brother had reversed the situation so he was beating the crap out of his own brother. Now that's funny.

LOL @ thinking you chi na is going to stop someone from pulling out his blade.

[Frost]

Ha ha ha like someone is going to have a video camera handy when they're assaulted or mugged on the street or in an alley. You guys kill me with this video mentality..

Who said just when you are being mugged, standing locks are legal in MMA and other full contact arenas just show us it being used once, anywhere...and people mamange to film fights on cameras and phones all the time and get them on you tube, surely we can see one example of chin na actually working on the net....




Apparently the guy getting stabbed failed to do so and instead was playing UFC in the real world. That's my point.

And knowing chin na he would have been able to control the knife hand without getting stabbed...how many time have you seen this done or done it yourself.... the fact is against a knife, especially if you are NOT aware your opponent has one, chances are you will get stabbed or cut, its what happens

T he best knife defence stuff i have seen comes from a guy who gave up chinna and kali AFTER getting stabbed multipul times in an attack and instead modified greco roman wrestling into an effective kife system

[Frost]

Complete first rounds with little to no action never happens in the UFC. Same with holding on watching the clock waiting for the round to end. Get real and quit arguing for the sake of arguing.

you are confusing intent with outcome, understandabe if you have never competed

Guys train with the intent of KOing subbing the guy as quickly as possible, however aganst a n opponent as good as you sometimes it takes longer...and in the real world one pounch knocked outs rarely happen

being told to get real by someone who believes chin na will save them against a knife and that the UFC is unrealistic because the fights sometimes last a whole round or three is a bit rich

[Frost]

It amazes me that in ALL the fights you've seen, the guy on the bottom never had any friends...

I recall VIVIDLY the result of a former co-worker of mine that got the mount and was doing fine, untill he got kicked in the face, got KO'd and lost 2 teeth, got a broken nose AND his lips all stiched up.
This happened outside of Joker nightclub in Toronto in 98.

Yes, I name places and time of the events I see, I am freaky that way.

Yep i always wonder what people are doing to constantly see these multipul street fights where they all go to the ground, all end up in mount and all get attacked by the guy on the bottoms friends

[goju]

actually yao sing if an mma schools is teaching The specific gracie brand of bjj they will cover basic standing locks that are equivalent to chinese chin na;)

[Frost]

I will say this though, NOT adressing the issue of an armed attacker ( inf not in reality at least in potential) is one of the major problems of MMA and many other sport combat arts.
That said, it is also the problem of almost every other MA.

the only difference i know is that most sports guys acknowledge this hole in their game.....alot of the TCMA crowd (and i was one) have a false belief they can handle a knife because of some drills they have done

[jmd161]

Yep i always wonder what people are doing to constantly see these multipul street fights where they all go to the ground, all end up in mount and all get attacked by the guy on the bottoms friends

It's a lot easier to see just this in urban city areas... In urban city areas the body slam is a big part of the fight game. You are guaranteed to see at least one or an attempt at one in every street fight. It's very easy to end up on the bottom or in mount during a successful slam.


the only difference i know is that most sports guys acknowledge this hole in their game.....alot of the TCMA crowd (and i was one) have a false belief they can handle a knife because of some drills they have done

I don't believe this to be true... we work on knife defense a lot and non of us have delusions of fighting against someone with a knife! I've pulled off defense in two man drills but I would never try it unless I have no choice! That means I have no escape and no chance of stopping the attack... that's the only time I would ever try standing and defending myself against a knife.

[Frost]

It's a lot easier to see just this in urban city areas... In urban city areas the body slam is a big part of the fight game. You are guaranteed to see at least one or an attempt at one in every street fight. It's very easy to end up on the bottom or in mount during a successful slam.
.
i think you missed my point, point was not that fights happen or go to the ground as much as the guy on top always gets beaten by the guy on the bottoms mates.....
I went to university in the same city that geoff thompson worked the door, i saw lots of fights, judo and rugby were big there so saw lots of throws, not too many ended up with the thrower getting kicked in the head etc or mobbed...because he tended to go out with his mates just like the other guy did and they tended to be just as up for a fight as he was:)

[Yao Sing]

actually yao sing if an mma schools is teaching The specific gracie brand of bjj they will cover basic standing locks that are equivalent to chinese chin na;)

I wonder why Mr. Frost failed to mention that? Oh yeah, he was too busy playing 'I know it all everyone else is a dummy'. Maybe a conversational approach concerning the video would have helped.

So what do all you uber experts think is the best time to deal with a weapon situation, before he pulls the knife or after. I'm sure you guys will have some kind of brilliant way to twist your answer into something other than agreeing with me it's before.

Apparently this guy was so busy trying to choke out his opponent he gave him plenty of time to pull the knife and stab him multiple times. This is why street fights have to dealt with fast and you need to know where the guys hands are. Why do you think cops focus on hands? If MMA gyms are teaching moves equivalent to or better than Chin Na then great. Why the argument? Or are you guys just bored and felt it was more fun than actually discussing things.

And if you'll notice I never spoke of dealing with a knife in hand other than to say run. You guys brought out the Chin Na knife defense.

I don't even know much Chin Na other than what came with the different arts I've studied. I was using the name in general. The whole point that I was getting at was his decision to play sport in a non-sport environment.

I see this as a potential problem. Maybe this guy was just copying what he sees on UFC and had no training at all. Or he trained at a gym that focuses only on sport fighting and he took that mentality into a street fight.

[Frost]

I wonder why Mr. Frost failed to mention that? Oh yeah, he was too busy playing 'I know it all everyone else is a dummy'. Maybe a conversational approach concerning the video would have helped.

So what do all you uber experts think is the best time to deal with a weapon situation, before he pulls the knife or after. I'm sure you guys will have some kind of brilliant way to twist your answer into something other than agreeing with me it's before.

Apparently this guy was so busy trying to choke out his opponent he gave him plenty of time to pull the knife and stab him multiple times. This is why street fights have to dealt with fast and you need to know where the guys hands are. Why do you think cops focus on hands? If MMA gyms are teaching moves equivalent to or better than Chin Na then great. Why the argument? Or are you guys just bored and felt it was more fun than actually discussing things.

And if you'll notice I never spoke of dealing with a knife in hand other than to say run. You guys brought out the Chin Na knife defense.

I don't even know much Chin Na other than what came with the different arts I've studied. I was using the name in general. The whole point that I was getting at was his decision to play sport in a non-sport environment.

I see this as a potential problem. Maybe this guy was just copying what he sees on UFC and had no training at all. Or he trained at a gym that focuses only on sport fighting and he took that mentality into a street fight.

actually its a knife thread and you raised the china thing on the first page, saying to be more rounded and better fighters they should add chin na...did you not mean to input this on a knife/guard related thread...did you post on the wrong thread by mistake?

I never mentioned it because its not taught in any place other than strict GJJ schools, and most of their guys feel the standing stuff is not really that effective

No good MMA school will teach standing joint locks, they will teach standing control positions in the clinch, underhooks, overhooks, head control etc but not locks as there is too much freedom of movement to make them effective.

so what exactly is your answer then, lock his arm after he has pulled the knife or hit him in the eye, hit him in the throat and kill him...and then hope he does have a concealed weapon otherwise you are off to jail?

so you dont know much chin na, you dont train MMA, but yet you know MMA guys would be better off knowing chin na:confused:

[Knifefighter]

I wonder why Mr. Frost failed to mention that? Oh yeah, he was too busy playing 'I know it all everyone else is a dummy'.

Maybe because he understands that the "self-defense" techniques are generally just an ineffective as chin na is. Neither of them work worth beans.

[Frost]

Maybe because he understands that the "self-defense" techniques are generally just an ineffective as chin na is. Neither of them work worth beans.

what he said, plus you dont see them trained in many places other than GJJ schools, and since i dont train in one of those schools i dont train them so didnt even think of them

[jmd161]

what he said, plus you dont see them trained in many places other than GJJ schools, and since i dont train in one of those schools i dont train them so didnt even think of them

I don't claim to be an expert or very experienced with Chin Na/Kum Na but, of what I do know... most Chin Na techniques are not meant to be standing locks. They are meant to be limb breaking techniques,take down techniques or transitional locks leading to a break or take down.

[Knifefighter]

I don't claim to be an expert or very experienced with Chin Na/Kum Na but, of what I do know... most Chin Na techniques are not meant to be standing locks. They are meant to be limb breaking techniques,take down techniques or transitional locks leading to a break or take down.

Almost all locks are breaks.

As far as chi na being a take down, please point to one or two examples of that.

[jmd161]

i think you missed my point, point was not that fights happen or go to the ground as much as the guy on top always gets beaten by the guy on the bottoms mates.....
I went to university in the same city that geoff thompson worked the door, i saw lots of fights, judo and rugby were big there so saw lots of throws, not too many ended up with the thrower getting kicked in the head etc or mobbed...because he tended to go out with his mates just like the other guy did and they tended to be just as up for a fight as he was:)

Ok, I never said the guy on top get's beats by the guy on bottoms friends. I said in the fights I've seen the guy on the bottom always got stomped by the guy on top friends. The guy on top took a few shots (punches, kicks) from his own friends jumping in but, the guy on the bottom always got the worst of it!

That's what I said in reply to sanjuro_ronin saying this...


There are times that being on the bottom MAY be safer than being on top, mounting the other guy.
On the bottom you can use him to shield yourself, you can't do that on top.
On the bottom you can see your attackers and they have an obstacle, him.
On top your back is exposed and others have a clear shot at you.
Just saying that fights tend to be shades of gray and are rarely B&W.

[jmd161]

Almost all locks are breaks.

As far as chi na being a take down, please point to one or two examples of that.


If we train tomorrow... I will gladly film some Chin Na take downs and transitions video.


Here is a bit of Chin Na with some take downs...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejIyjIwtHjY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgAkbSVSQqE

See the problem with most Chin Na video is they stop at the lock. They don't usually continue on to the take down or follow up technique.

[Knifefighter]

If we train tomorrow... I will gladly film some Chin Na take downs and transitions video.


Here is a bit of Chin Na with some take downs...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejIyjIwtHjY&feature=related

Please do the video with you and your training partners actually resisting the takedowns because the clip you showed are takedowns that are mostly not effective against actual resisting adult male opponents.

BTW, if that is the chi na that will supposedly counter a knife attack, good luck with that.

[jmd161]

Please do the video with you and your training partners actually resisting the takedowns because the clip you showed are takedowns that are mostly not effective against actual resisting adult male opponents..

You asked to see some Chin Na take downs.. I don't have any video currently myself so, I did a quick search on you tube.


BTW, if that is the chi na that will supposedly counter a knife attack, good luck with that.

Come on bro!

It really get's frustrating when you do cr@p like this! You didn't ask for knife defense Chin Na nor did I say this was knife defense Chin Na. You really can't help yourself can you?:rolleyes:

We have a good discussion going I agree to post video then you have to be the a$$ everyone expects you to be instead of just taking the adult way out!:confused:

[Knifefighter]

You asked to see some Chin Na take downs.. I don't have any video currently myself so, I did a quick search on you tube.
That's why I mentioned the part about doing it with resisting opponents. When you never train with resistance, you end up with mostly b.s. techniques like those shown in the clips above.


Come on bro!

It really get's frustrating when you do cr@p like this! You didn't ask for knife defense Chin Na nor did I say this was knife defense Chin Na. You really can't help yourself can you?:rolleyes:

We have a good discussion going I agree to post video then you have to be the a$$ everyone expects you to be instead of just taking the adult way out!:confused:

The point about chi na was for the guy who said it would work against the knife. Sorry, it wasn't meant to be about you.

[jmd161]

That's why I mentioned the part about doing it with resisting opponents. When you never train with resistance, you end up with mostly b.s. techniques like those shown in the clips above.



The point about chi na was for the guy who said it would work against the knife. Sorry, it wasn't meant to be about you.


Ok, no prob!

I type pretty slow and missed that you added doing video with resistance... MY bad sorry I thought you were addressing me with the knife comment. I can try doing some knife stuff on the video as well but, understand I've already stated I wouldn't try any of it unless I have no choice! That's with any knife defense I've seen not just what we train. My ideal defense against a knife would be a gun and several feet of distance!;)

[Knifefighter]

Ok, no prob!

I type pretty slow and missed that you added doing video with resistance... MY bad sorry I thought you were addressing me with the knife comment. I can try doing some knife stuff on the video as well but, understand I've already stated I wouldn't try any of it unless I have no choice! That's with any knife defense I've seen not just what we train. My ideal defense against a knife would be a gun and several feet of distance!;)

Here's how you do knife defense. Use a metal training knife (or a wooden dowel if you can't get your hands on one). Tell your training partner to "kill" you, full force and without stopping. Do your techniques from there.

Same with the chi na. Train it full force with the training partners trying not to let you take them down or lock them up.

[goju]

As far as chi na being a take down, please point to one or two examples of that.

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/CWG6eglkLa8/0.jpg
http://kungfufan.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/headlock-arm-bar.jpg
http://bagua.freehostia.com/images/book_chinna.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_gwiXbQ4HapM/RuAfWuAW2GI/AAAAAAAAAJs/gEkUzqBT268/s400/Taiji%2BChin%2BNa.jpg
http://www.blackbeltmag.com/images/Chin%20na%20book.jpg
http://img.infibeam.com/img/93aee53d/667/9/9781886969667.jpg
http://is.gumtree.com/image/big/7111586.jpg

[Frost]

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/CWG6eglkLa8/0.jpg
http://kungfufan.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/headlock-arm-bar.jpg
http://bagua.freehostia.com/images/book_chinna.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_gwiXbQ4HapM/RuAfWuAW2GI/AAAAAAAAAJs/gEkUzqBT268/s400/Taiji%2BChin%2BNa.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_gwiXbQ4HapM/RuAfWuAW2GI/AAAAAAAAAJs/gEkUzqBT268/s400/Taiji%2BChin%2BNa.jpg
http://img.infibeam.com/img/93aee53d/667/9/9781886969667.jpg
http://is.gumtree.com/image/big/7111586.jpg

eamples of it being used against someone actually fighting back would be nice :D

[goju]

first it was that they didnt lead to throws now its back to something else when people are proven wrong?:D

we already covered the cage fight incident where a gjj fighter used that standing arm lock to tear his opponents limb up and humble wing chun guy posted that duke roufus cip with that basic trainsitonal shoulder lock from the clinch.

[Knifefighter]

eamples of it being used against someone actually fighting back would be nice :D

It's pretty well established that any takedown done like those shown above is only going to happen accidentally.

[Frost]

first it was that they didnt lead to throws now its back to something else when people are proven wrong?:D

we already covered the cage fight incident where a gjj fighter used that standing arm lock to tear his opponents limb up and humble wing chun guy posted that duke roufus cip with that basic trainsitonal shoulder lock from the clinch.

anyone can demo anything, the fact is apart from one or two instances (flukes) chin na has not worked anywhere where the opponent fights back...and no one can post videos other than demos of it working against people either standing or leading to a throw.....now please prove it works by posting actual clips of it working in a fight, not pictures from books or demos with complient partners

i ask this as someone with more experience in chin na than i care to remember, i judged people on it in clubs and i demoed it at national comps...and i could never pull it off or ever met anyone who could in a full on sparrring match

[goju]

It's pretty well established that any takedown done like those shown above is only going to happen accidentally.

oh just admit you dont know a god **** thing about china na and go wheel your chair off to another corner of the board to regail people with your boring stories and a words of "wisdom" old man.:p:p

[Frost]

oh just admit you dont know a god **** thing about china na and go wheel your chair off to another corner of the board to regail people with your boring stories and a words of "wisdom" old man.:p:p

as i said in my last post i know a fair bit about it, not only do i have those books and videos you put up, i also trained it with masters from 4 different chnese styles...and i agree with knife, its low percentage stuff and largly a waste of time, now if you can post clips of it working to change my mind please do

[Knifefighter]

anyone can demo anything, the fact is apart from one or two instances (flukes) chin na has not worked anywhere where the opponent fights back...and no one can post videos other than demos of it working against people either standing or leading to a throw.....now please prove it works by posting actual clips of it working in a fight, not pictures from books or demos with complient partners

i ask this as someone with more experience in chin na than i care to remember, i judged people on it in clubs and i demoed it at national comps...and i could never pull it off or ever met anyone who could in a full on sparrring match

Most people with moderate to advanced grappling skill and experience can look at the above photos and figure out pretty quickly the principles that are not in place that would make them valid techniques.

[Frost]

Most people with moderate to advanced grappling skill and experience can look at the above photos and figure out pretty quickly the principles that are not in place that would make them valid techniques.

unfortunantly a few lessons with a good grappling club showed me this to be true......i have no where near your expereince but i take it you are talking about things like lack of body control and too much freedom of movement on the part of the opponent, not to mention in most of them his structure is still largle intact?

[goju]

anyone can demo anything, the fact is apart from one or two instances (flukes) chin na has not worked anywhere where the opponent fights back...and no one can post videos other than demos of it working against people either standing or leading to a throw.....now please prove it works by posting actual clips of it working in a fight, not pictures from books or demos with complient partners

i ask this as someone with more experience in chin na than i care to remember, i judged people on it in clubs and i demoed it at national comps...and i could never pull it off or ever met anyone who could in a full on sparrring match

OH cooooooooooome on!What a crap excuse! they were flukes!? we mighty as well just say they were lucky too eh?

if something is done even once then it ceases to be impossible in this case i was done twice that we know of and you are still making bogus excuses for it.

I never said it was a high percentage thing but chin na has a place and time to be used

[Frost]

OH cooooooooooome on!What a crap excuse! they were flukes!? we mighty as well just say they were lucky too eh?

if something is done even once then it ceases to be impossible in this case i was done twice that we know of and you are still making bogus excuses for it.

I never said it was a high percentage thing but chin na has a place and time to be used

twice in thousands of comps is not a fluke:eek:

once when he was trying to escape a lock and landed it by accident and never pulled it off again?

stop making excuses and post videos of it working....i can post hundreds of clips or wrestling controls working and leading into throws.....if these moves are not lucky them you should be able to do the same

[Knifefighter]

oh just admit you dont know a god **** thing about china na and go wheel your chair off to another corner of the board to regail people with your boring stories and a words of "wisdom" old man.:p:p

Here's a better idea. This tourney (http://www.fighttowinmma.com/index.php/FP-RokStories/2010-nationals.html) is coming up in Colorado on the 24th of this month. Enter it and post some clips of yourself doing some of those chi na takedowns you posted above.

[goju]

twice in thousands of comps is not a fluke:eek:

once when he was trying to escape a lock and landed it by accident and never pulled it off again?

stop making excuses and post videos of it working....i can post hundreds of clips or wrestling controls working and leading into throws.....if these moves are not lucky them you should be able to do the same

like i said that what we know of. I'm not gonna scour the internet searching through fights just to prove a point ( some of us have lives after all:p)


first chin na doesnt lead to take downs

that was shown different

now it has never been used
that was shown different but of course it wasnt enough!

luck is silly concept for the superstitious and nothing more its hardly suitable for a rational discussion of martial arts

[Frost]

;)
like i said that what we know of. I'm not gonna scour the internet searching through fights just to prove a point ( some of us have lives after all:p)


first chin na doesnt lead to take downs

that was shown different

now it has never been used
that was shown different but of course it wasnt enough!

luck is silly concept for the superstitious and nothing more its hardly suitable for a rational discussion of martial arts

nope it was that it didnt work against resistance, either standing or into throws....and since you seem to have plenty of time to posts photos of books but cant find the time to find clips of it working realistically we must assume they dont exist ;)

[Knifefighter]

luck is silly concept for the superstitious and nothing more its hardly suitable for a rational discussion of martial arts

Yet, that is precisely what the evidence points towards as far as chi na being valid takedown techniques.

[goju]

;)nope it was that it didnt work against resistance, either standing or into throws...

no father time was blabbing about it not leading to any type of takedown and he was corrected then of course instead of admiting he was wrong he went on babbling about something else.

that practical chin na pic for example is a very similar to a standing key lock they teach in gjj only the body is not as behind the person youre locking

if the lock fails youre still in the position to grab the guy and snake your leg behind his leg and do a basic judo style trip


.and since you seem to have plenty of time to posts photos
of books but cant find the time to find clips of it working realistically

yes you're quite right pasting the pictures from the first page of googles image search is quite time consuming :eek:

[Frost]

no father time was blabbing about it not leading to any type of takedown and he was corrected then of cours einstead fo admiting he was wrong he went on babbling about something else.

that practical chin na pic for example is a very similar to a standing key lock they teach in gjj only the body is not as behind the person youre locking

if the lock fails youre still in the position to grab the guy and snake your leg behind his and do a basic judo style trip



yes you're quite right pasting the pictures from the first page of googles image search search is quite time consuming :eek:

he was on about it not leading into throws in real life..prove him wrong show it working...as already discussed most grapplers find the GJJ standing stuff useless

so just post the first clips you come across...it shouldnt be hard there must be lots...

[Knifefighter]

that practical chin na pic for example is a very similar to a standing key lock they teach in gjj only the body is not as behind the person youre locking

GJJ doesn't teach a standing key lock because actually grappling against resisting opponents teaches you that doesn't work.

[goju]

he was on about it not leading into throws in real life..prove him wrong show it working...as already discussed most grapplers find the GJJ standing stuff useless

how can it not lead into a throw? look at the distance youre at when your doing chin na.If you feel the lock isnt going to succeed you can abandon it entirely for a clinch or underhooks to go into a takedown

regardless of what they find the Gjj standing stuff to be what i illustrated can easily transition into a basic simple judo takedown that inarguably works

[Knifefighter]

if the lock fails youre still in the position to grab the guy and snake your leg behind his leg and do a basic judo style trip

Actually, when the lock fails (which is usually does), the opponent usually ends up on your back... which is what makes it a not valid tech.

[goju]

GJJ doesn't teach a standing key lock because actually grappling against resisting opponents teaches you that doesn't work.

lets see i did gjj directly under a student who leared from royce and we did said lock almost daily before we worked on ground . But of course the mighty dale franks knows all!:rolleyes: :rolleyes::p

[Knifefighter]

how can it not lead into a throw? look at the distance youre at when your doing chin na.If you feel the lock isnt going to succeed you can abandon it entirely for a clinch or underhooks to go into a takedown

regardless of what they find the Gjj standing stuff to be what i illustrated can easily transition into a basic simple judo takedown that inarguably works

There are two main problems with chi na.

1- Since it rarely works, you have to transition into something that actually does work (as you alluded to above), and you have missed a good chance to use real set ups.

2- Chi na often ends up giving the opponent a better opportunity to either take YOU down or submit you.

[Knifefighter]

lets see i did gjj directly under a student who leared from royce and we did said lock almost daily before we worked on ground . But of course the mighty dale franks knows all!:rolleyes: :rolleyes::p

Really? Which student was that? Because I would have known him since I trained at the Gracie academy for 8 years with Royce. BTW, in that 8 years, we never once did a standing key lock.

[goju]

There are two main problems with chi na.

1- Since it rarely works, you have to transition into something that actually does work (as you alluded to above), and you have missed a good chance to use real set ups.

2- Chi na often ends up giving the opponent a better opportunity to either take YOU down or submit you.

A.the transition wouldnt be hardgiven where youre at.

B. theres nothing wrong with transitioning in chin na you dont have to wildy try to grab someones arms to yank on it. like with everything else if it fails quickly work off of it for something else

[goju]

Really? Which student was that? Because I would have known him since I trained at the Gracie academy for 8 years with Royce. BTW, in that 8 years, we never once did a standing key lock.

i knew him only by griff he studied under royce and jonathon krauss( krautch?) and was a brown belt. royce evens topped by for a seminar while i was at that school

[goju]

well im done with lunch ill be back later:D

[Knifefighter]

i knew him only by griff he studied under royce and jonathon krauss( krautch?) and was a brown belt. royce evens topped by for a seminar while i was at that school

Royce has no instructor named griff in Colorado. Sounds like you got tricked.

[goju]

Royce has no instructor named griff in Colorado. Sounds like you got tricked.

Bearing in mind that griff could be his nick name( beats me never asked) your statement would be ridiculous as it would imply first that t'sko ,which is a very acclaimed mma gym would hire frauds, second guys like alvin robinson and other professional competitors would train with a fraud and third royce would personally promote a frauds students to higher belts.

basically youre saying that a bunch of well known and respected people in the MMA scene are scamming people and are imcompetent enough not to be aware of someones backround.

i laugh at you short stuff i really do.:p

now if you will excuse me im gonna go get a lift in .

ciao

[Knifefighter]

Bearing in mind that griff could be his nick name( beats me never asked) your statement would be ridiculous as it would imply first that t'sko ,which is a very acclaimed mma gym would hire frauds, second guys like alvin robinson and other professional competitors would train with a fraud and third royce would personally promote a frauds students to higher belts.

If they were teaching you standing key locks, they were frauds. Of course that would explain why you know nothing of grappling.

But feel free to prove me wrong by showing your chi na takedowns in that tourney coming up in a couple of weeks.

Or course, we all no emo-boy would never actually enter a competitive arena where there are opponents going full force against him.

[goju]

If they were teaching you standing key locks, they were frauds. Of course that would explain why you know nothing of grappling.
Nope they were just following the standard GJJ self defense locks that are taught at that brand of schools but go ahead and call and assortment of respected people who have done more in their competitive and coaching careers than you could ever dream of frauds. it does well for your image.


Or course, we all no emo-boy would never actually enter a competitive arena where there are opponents going full force against him.

Hmmmmmmm my memory may be fading since as im getting older but who was the cranky geriatric who has challenged dozens of people on here to matches over the years and never shows up? Whos the one who claimed that they and i quote "only fight like they do in the streets" but had a vid posted of himself engaging in the lightest sparring match the world has ever seen in some park? Who was the one who continually asks people to post evidence of their competitions but has little proof of their own what was it again ? 100 or 200 plus fights?

You're right tiny everyones a fraud but you:D:rolleyes::p

[monji112000]

lets see i did gjj directly under a student who leared from royce and we did said lock almost daily before we worked on ground . But of course the mighty dale franks knows all!:rolleyes: :rolleyes::p

You are over generalizing "gracie" JJ.

You can't call what a student of Royce (which many argue as the worst gracie in skill level no disrespect to him at all). as the be all to end all of what you find at "Gracie" gym.

I know for a fact that Rolyer network, Renzo Network, and Carlson, and Gracie Barra all have different curriculum.

My teacher, who trained at Gracie Barra in Rio under JJ machado, Carlos, and know is affiliated with Gordo, does not teach standing locks. He has shown a few variation of a standing arm bar, that's it. I know for a fact that his curriculum is very similar to Renzo's. All "self defense" applications from standing are applications of Judo throws, which are a staple. My teacher competed and trained Judo in brazil. I do the same, try to emulate him and his path to Black belt. Just because it says gracie doesn't mean they are all the same.

I know of a few "gracie combatives and whatever mcdojo style " places.

[goju]

You are over generalizing "gracie" JJ.

You can't call what a student of Royce (which many argue as the worst gracie in skill level no disrespect to him at all). as the be all to end all of what you find at "Gracie" gym.

I know for a fact that Rolyer network, Renzo Network, and Carlson, and Gracie Barra all have different curriculum.

My teacher, who trained at Gracie Barra in Rio under JJ machado, Carlos, and know is affiliated with Gordo, does not teach standing locks. He has shown a few variation of a standing arm bar, that's it. I know for a fact that his curriculum is very similar to Renzo's. All "self defense" applications from standing are applications of Judo throws, which are a staple. My teacher competed and trained Judo in brazil. I do the same, try to emulate him and his path to Black belt. Just because it says gracie doesn't mean they are all the same.

I know of a few "gracie combatives and whatever mcdojo style " places.


im not here to particularly argue if royce was any good or if it is taught at every single gjj academy hell im not even here to argue if the lock was any good ( i dont even like it personally ) but its is a common move in their "street defense scenario" "stand up submission" whatever the h ell you want to call it arsenal

[jmd161]

;)

nope it was that it didnt work against resistance, either standing or into throws....and since you seem to have plenty of time to posts photos of books but cant find the time to find clips of it working realistically we must assume they dont exist ;)

Other than basic non resistance clips like are usually posted... you're not going to find chin na in any tournament or MMA type fighting. Small joint manipulation is illegal in almost every sanctioning body that has to do with any type of competition. Does that mean chin na is only small joint manipulation?

No!

Most styles of CMA have a small amount of chin na techniques in them... There are no strictly chin na styles. The closest would be something like eagle claw with it's joint locking techniques and even they're limited. I think when TMA people refer to chin na for take downs grappler's think along the lines of what they consider take downs, and that's just not the case. You can't compare chin na to BJJ or wrestling because it's not like either of those arts. Chin na is a set of techniques that are used in specific situations in TCMA. To compare chin na with grappling arts is not correct! Yes there are take downs... yes there are locks but, it's not used as a means to go to the ground or fight on the ground.

There are holding locks designed to hold or restrain but most chin na is to take the person down with follow up striking techniques or a limb break. Just like in grappling the effectiveness of the chin na techniques is in the set up and usage.

[Frost]

Other than basic non resistance clips like are usually posted... you're not going to find chin na in any tournament or MMA type fighting. Small joint manipulation is illegal in almost every sanctioning body that has to do with any type of competition. Does that mean chin na is only small joint manipulation?

No!

Most styles of CMA have a small amount of chin na techniques in them... There are no strictly chin na styles. The closest would be something like eagle claw with it's joint locking techniques and even they're limited. I think when TMA people refer to chin na for take downs grappler's think along the lines of what they consider take downs, and that's just not the case. You can't compare chin na to BJJ or wrestling because it's not like either of those arts. Chin na is a set of techniques that are used in specific situations in TCMA. To compare chin na with grappling arts is not correct! Yes there are take downs... yes there are locks but, it's not used as a means to go to the ground or fight on the ground.

There are holding locks designed to hold or restrain but most chin na is to take the person down with follow up striking techniques or a limb break. Just like in grappling the effectiveness of the chin na techniques is in the set up and usage.

shoulder, elbow arm and wrist locks are all allowed in MMA and grappling , the only thing not allowed are finger locks...so are we now saying all chin na is based on finger locks:eek: if not we should be able to see it somewhere in action

grapplers thing along the lines of takedowns and control positions that work against resisiting opponents, and when chin na advocates cant post clips of it being used in grappling/mma/or class sparring tend to think its not very practical

please show these hold and takedowns being used one on one, the only time i have seen them used is by police when they have superior numbers and have already taken the opponent down, limited his movement and pick him up with the holds...i cant remember eeing one clip of china na being used in a pressure situation one on one..can you?

[Frost]

im not here to particularly argue if royce was any good or if it is taught at every single gjj academy hell im not even here to argue if the lock was any good ( i dont even like it personally ) but its is a common move in their "street defense scenario" "stand up submission" whatever the h ell you want to call it arsenal


you seemed to be argueing look look the graices and BJJ teach this stuff so there must be a use for it....what we said was that outside the strict GJJ school (maybe only torrence i dont know) no one else really teaches them because they are low percentage...like all standing locks

you have someone who trained with royce for years (not someone who claimes to be an instructor under him) and various other grapplers telling you these things are low percentage and useless, doesnt that tell you something?

[jmd161]

shoulder, elbow arm and wrist locks are all allowed in MMA and grappling , the only thing not allowed are finger locks...so are we now saying all chin na is based on finger locks:eek: if not we should be able to see it somewhere in action

grapplers thing along the lines of takedowns and control positions that work against resisiting opponents, and when chin na advocates cant post clips of it being used in grappling/mma/or class sparring tend to think its not very practical.

I've already said chin na is not just small joint manipulation... I think chin na is not used by MMA and grappler's because of the control issue. Grappler's tend to use locks and take downs that transition into follow up control and submission positions seamlessly. Chin na just doesn't transition to the seamless control positions on the ground as easily. Most TCMA styles were not intended to go to the ground... You could throw or take your opponent down but most styles aren't concerned about going to the ground with the opponent. Chin na is more based off breaking the limb and moving on, not holding the person there.


please show these hold and takedowns being used one on one, the only time i have seen them used is by police when they have superior numbers and have already taken the opponent down, limited his movement and pick him up with the holds...i cant remember eeing one clip of china na being used in a pressure situation one on one..can you?

I can't say I have other than in our training but I don't really watch chin na techniques of others.

[Frost]

I've already said chin na is not just small joint manipulation... I think chin na is not used by MMA and grappler's because of the control issue. Grappler's tend to use locks and take downs that transition into follow up control and submission positions seamlessly. Chin na just doesn't transition to the seamless control positions on the ground as easily. Most TCMA styles were not intended to go to the ground... You could throw or take your opponent down but most styles aren't concerned about going to the ground with the opponent. Chin na is more based off breaking the limb and moving on, not holding the person there.



I can't say I have other than in our training but I don't really watch chin na techniques of others.

how can you break the limb on the ground if you dont have control over him?

[jmd161]

how can you break the limb on the ground if you dont have control over him?

I didn't say you don't have control... I said that with chin na it doesn't transition to follow up grappling techniques as easily. If you're a grappler and your techniques don't transition seamlessly or smoothly why would you use them?

[Frost]

I didn't say you don't have control... I said that with chin na it doesn't transition to follow up grappling techniques as easily. If you're a grappler and your techniques don't transition seamlessly or smoothly why would you use them?


chin na as you describe it is designed to break a limb or take a guy down so you can hit him or break a limb

what is the difference between this and grappling in your mind?
standing grappling is designed to control your opponent and take him down (and in an MMA context to allow you to strike him as well)

grappling on the ground is designed to break limbs, or choke him out (in an MMA context it also allows you to hit him on the ground, whether standing or following him down. The fact he taps before the break is the only reason you dont see more breaks

so other than the fact we can point to hundreds of grappling clips where it is used full contact and against full resistance and its hard to find any videso of chin na doing the same..what in your mind is the difference between the two?

[Knifefighter]

I didn't say you don't have control... I said that with chin na it doesn't transition to follow up grappling techniques as easily.

What do they transition to?

[jmd161]

I'm headed to training I'll answer this when I get back.. I should have some chin na video from today's training as well...

[goju]

you seemed to be argueing look look the graices and BJJ teach this stuff so there must be a use for it....what we said was that outside the strict GJJ school (maybe only torrence i dont know) no one else really teaches them because they are low percentage...like all standing locks

you have someone who trained with royce for years (not someone who claimes to be an instructor under him) and various other grapplers telling you these things are low percentage and useless, doesnt that tell you something?


Does illiteracy run rampant on internet forums? LOL

No i wasn't argueing that because the gracies teach these locks ( which ive said more than once on here i didn't care for because they didnt work on someone who was flexible in the shoulders.) that there must be a use for them. Im just arguing that they are there and alot of tradtional gjj schools are big on them for their street defense.

No the guy i learned from DID study directly with Royce for years, Unless i went under a state hallucination for quitesome time It was a Royce gracie bjj affiliated school and Royce WAS THERE while i was attending grudge to promote students ranks.


But of course people like you and dale who have never step foot in grudge(or even in Colorado for that matter) would know more than someone who was actually there.
:rolleyes:

[Knifefighter]

But of course people like you and dale who have never step foot in grudge(or even in Colorado for that matter) would know more than someone who was actually there.
:rolleyes:

But of course emo-boys with a couple of months of training like you who have never set foot in the Gracie academy like to think they know more about the GJJ curriculum than someone who trained there for 8 years and who has a BB in the style.

[goju]

But of course emo-boys with a couple of months of training like you who have never set foot in the Gracie academy .

Aaaaaaand i never said i did .You're the one whos make wild claims about people you've never met and gyms you've never trained at.:p

[jmd161]

Let me address this first...

I was not able to shoot video today.... We trained at the Chinese Freemason's Association today and we don't have mats there. I'll try to come up with some video in the coming weeks.


chin na as you describe it is designed to break a limb or take a guy down so you can hit him or break a limb

what is the difference between this and grappling in your mind?

The difference between this and grappling would be the techniques you could follow up with while on the ground with the opponent. There is a plethora of techniques you can pull from while on the ground with your opponent with grappling.

That''s not the case with chin na... With chin na once you take them down and break the limb you need to get back to your feet asap!

It's just like a grappler who's facing a superior striker... your're not going to stay there and trade blows with the guy. You're going to take him down to your comfort level and where his striking is less effective. Most TCMA's have no ground game... so it's foolish to go to the ground where you're less effective.


standing grappling is designed to control your opponent and take him down (and in an MMA context to allow you to strike him as well)

grappling on the ground is designed to break limbs, or choke him out (in an MMA context it also allows you to hit him on the ground, whether standing or following him down. The fact he taps before the break is the only reason you dont see more breaks

so other than the fact we can point to hundreds of grappling clips where it is used full contact and against full resistance and its hard to find any videso of chin na doing the same..what in your mind is the difference between the two?

Again, I point out that chin na is not a system or style like BJJ, Aikido, Judo or JJJ. In most styles of TCMA they usually have maybe a hand full of chin na techniques. In some styles there entire complement of techniques maybe just wrist or finger locks... It depends on the style. Then it depends on how much the sifu knows and teaches himself. There is not a set number of techniques or a curriculum that is standard across styles.



What do they transition to?

When you're a grappler and you train wrestling, Judo and BJJ they all have something in common... grappling! The take downs in wrestling and throws in Judo transition well to the ground game in each art. Now you take techniques from chin na which doesn't have that same philosophy... There is no ground game to transition to! It would take someone with not only knowledge of chin na but with an exceptional back ground in grappling arts to work manageable transitions.

Why go through that when you can just cut out the middle man (TCMA) and train MMA?

I chose TCMA because it was a way for me to be different. I started out a wrestler because I've always been a big guy. I wanted to beat the little guys at their game sticking and moving... so I started training in striking arts I happen to like striking better!

With that being said we still go to the ground in our training! One of my training brothers who's a BB In Karate trained under Marcel Ferreira in BJJ for yrs. So we work to test our techniques against him on the ground.

[Knifefighter]

I was not able to shoot video today.... We trained at the Chinese Freemason's Association today and we don't have mats there. I'll try to come up with some video in the coming weeks.
Looking forward to seeing what you are doing with it.



That''s not the case with chin na... With chin na once you take them down and break the limb you need to get back to your feet asap!

If you just broke the opponent's arm or leg, why would you need to get back on your feet? It's not like he's going to be able to do a whole lot with a broken limb.

[jmd161]

If you just broke the opponent's arm or leg, why would you need to get back on your feet? It's not like he's going to be able to do a whole lot with a broken limb.


The thinking in TCMA is self defense you should be ready for another attacker... if one presents himself...

[Frost]

Aaaaaaand i never said i did .You're the one whos make wild claims about people you've never met and gyms you've never trained at.:p

actually you did you went of on one saying you know its taught because you trained it under a brown belt in GJJ, and the knifefighter pointed out he actually has a GJJ blackbelt and trained for years with royce.

now objectivally who knows more about GJJ, someone with a few months training in it under a brown belt...or a BJJ and GJJ blackbelt who actually spent years with the graices...who would you trust more to know about the curriculm and how those who trained in it felt about certain parts of it?

[Frost]

Let me address this first...

I was not able to shoot video today.... We trained at the Chinese Freemason's Association today and we don't have mats there. I'll try to come up with some video in the coming weeks.



The difference between this and grappling would be the techniques you could follow up with while on the ground with the opponent. There is a plethora of techniques you can pull from while on the ground with your opponent with grappling.

That''s not the case with chin na... With chin na once you take them down and break the limb you need to get back to your feet asap!.

i still dont see the difference, yes grappling has more techniques but the fundermental goal is the same, takedown and ground and pound or snap, now facing a skilled ground guy i might need all those different tecniques, but against someone clueless i can throw and kick the cr*p out of them, go knee on belly and punch the sh*t out of them or enter straight into a lock and break things, only one of the above calls for me to actually go to the ground with the guy and only for a moment so again i ask whats the fundermental differnece?



It's just like a grappler who's facing a superior striker... your're not going to stay there and trade blows with the guy. You're going to take him down to your comfort level and where his striking is less effective. Most TCMA's have no ground game... so it's foolish to go to the ground where you're less effective..

it may be foolish but you might not have a choice, and again most MMA strikers would much rather finish a lock easily standing rather than have to learn the ground so why dont you think we see more locks on downed opponents with one guy standing and finishing the other guy?

.[/QUOTE]

[goju]

actually you did you went of on one saying you know its taught because you trained it under a brown belt in GJJ, and the knifefighter pointed out he actually has a GJJ blackbelt and trained for years with royce.

yes and mongoloid logic doesnt work on those of us who can count above potato. But thanks for playing frost.




anow objectivally who knows more about GJJ, someone with a few months training in it under a brown belt...or a BJJ and GJJ blackbelt who actually spent years with the graices...who would you trust more to know about the curriculm and how those who trained in it felt about certain parts of it?


i would trust the coach i studied under who spent 12 years under royce's instruction and who taught at one of colorado's most acclaimed mma school vs some nobody fighter from yester year who hangs around online trolling forums for years because he has a napoleon complex

I mean after all ive seen my instructor actually in action rather than seeing nothing more than meaningless posturing online so i have all the reason in the world to take his advice over ANYONE here.

But im kooky that way. :D:rolleyes::D

[jmd161]

i still dont see the difference, yes grappling has more techniques but the fundermental goal is the same, takedown and ground and pound or snap, now facing a skilled ground guy i might need all those different tecniques, but against someone clueless i can throw and kick the cr*p out of them, go knee on belly and punch the sh*t out of them or enter straight into a lock and break things, only one of the above calls for me to actually go to the ground with the guy and only for a moment so again i ask whats the fundermental differnece?

When I mentioned ground and pound in grappling knifefighter was quick to point out ground and pound is not grappling... so which is it?




it may be foolish but you might not have a choice, and again most MMA strikers would much rather finish a lock easily standing rather than have to learn the ground so why dont you think we see more locks on downed opponents with one guy standing and finishing the other guy?


Okay, are we still talking about chin na or are you asking why more standing locks aren't used?

[Frost]

When I mentioned ground and pound in grappling knifefighter was quick to point out ground and pound is not grappling... so which is it??

you use grappling to set up ground and pound, just like you use china to set up strikes....is that ok?




Okay, are we still talking about chin na or are you asking why more standing locks aren't used?

both, chin na involves standing locks and standing locks that lead to takedowns where the opponent stays standing and applys a lock or break to the opponent on the ground correct?

my question is why cant we see any evidence of this working....people are happy to demo it for clips and pictures but why cant we see it is use against an opponent looking to do you harm?

[m1k3]

When I mentioned ground and pound in grappling knifefighter was quick to point out ground and pound is not grappling... so which is it?



He's right, you can't do that on the mats in a competition. But, this is a self defense scenario, which means no rules.

To me its easy, double leg takedown, sit on his chest, feed him his teeth.

I've haven't had to do it since high school, I was a wrestler, but since 80 to 90% of the people out there don't have a clue about grappling I do believe it would be a high percentage move. Oh yeah, I saw it work a lot in the early UFCs, so its not what you would call theoretical fighting.

Actually in high school I didn't feed him his teeth. I took him down, sat on his chest, pinned his arms and tried to spit in his mouth while he was yelling for me to get off. :)

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Short version on a long story. He was confronted by a guy that was dating a chick he was dating. Told the guy he did not want any trouble but the guy Charlie Murphy front kicked him and tried to take him down. My brother thought he would tie him up in order to avoid striking the guy and causing a cut or bruise. The guy was not letting up so my brother got him in a guillotine and fell back on the ground. He said he thought the guy was trying to punch him in the ribs, he did not know he was being stabbed. A friend of his saw the knife and pulled them apart. The other guy ran and called the cops and told them he was attacked."

[monji112000]

"Short version on a long story. He was confronted by a guy that was dating a chick he was dating. Told the guy he did not want any trouble but the guy Charlie Murphy front kicked him and tried to take him down. My brother thought he would tie him up in order to avoid striking the guy and causing a cut or bruise. The guy was not letting up so my brother got him in a guillotine and fell back on the ground. He said he thought the guy was trying to punch him in the ribs, he did not know he was being stabbed. A friend of his saw the knife and pulled them apart. The other guy ran and called the cops and told them he was attacked."

Just to play devils advocate, what the heck does this have to do with pulling guard..? I know nothing about Knife fighting but I assume that pinning the person (you being on top), or even just clinching with the opponent could get you stabbed.

[sanjuro_ronin]

"Short version on a long story. He was confronted by a guy that was dating a chick he was dating. Told the guy he did not want any trouble but the guy Charlie Murphy front kicked him and tried to take him down. My brother thought he would tie him up in order to avoid striking the guy and causing a cut or bruise. The guy was not letting up so my brother got him in a guillotine and fell back on the ground. He said he thought the guy was trying to punch him in the ribs, he did not know he was being stabbed. A friend of his saw the knife and pulled them apart. The other guy ran and called the cops and told them he was attacked."

The not knowing you are being stabbed is typical of the adrenaline state of a fight,most guys only notice that have been stabbed or cut when they see it or it is pointed out by someone.
That happens when the guy stabbing is "punching" with the knife as opposed to "stabbing and twisting" which will get a more serious response from the person being stabbed.

[Knifefighter]

"Short version on a long story. He was confronted by a guy that was dating a chick he was dating. Told the guy he did not want any trouble but the guy Charlie Murphy front kicked him and tried to take him down. My brother thought he would tie him up in order to avoid striking the guy and causing a cut or bruise. The guy was not letting up so my brother got him in a guillotine and fell back on the ground. He said he thought the guy was trying to punch him in the ribs, he did not know he was being stabbed. A friend of his saw the knife and pulled them apart. The other guy ran and called the cops and told them he was attacked."

Ummm... that's not pulling guard. That is finishing a guillotine. And, anytime you have your hands tied up doing anything when his arms are not controlled, you run the risk of getting stabbed. Same thing when you are punching. Lots of times, it's even easier to stab someone who is trying to strike.

BTW, I can see why the police are conducting a further investigation. Depending on who started the fight, each of them deadly force and one of them probably wasn't justified in doing so. Which one will probably be determined by who the true agressor was.

[jmd161]

you use grappling to set up ground and pound, just like you use china to set up strikes....is that ok?

I have no problem with what you said... actually, It's the same thing I was trying to say when knifefighter replied GNP wasn't grappling in the other thread.





both, chin na involves standing locks and standing locks that lead to takedowns where the opponent stays standing and applys a lock or break to the opponent on the ground correct?

Correct!


my question is why cant we see any evidence of this working....people are happy to demo it for clips and pictures but why cant we see it is use against an opponent looking to do you harm?

I have no idea why chin na is always shown the way it is in clips. I question that myself... They rarely show any take downs and usually stop at the standing lock and no one stops at a standing lock! I wish I could explain why they demo chin na that way but, I honestly have no clue. :confused:

[Knifefighter]

I have no idea why chin na is always shown the way it is in clips. I question that myself... They rarely show any take downs and usually stop at the standing lock and no one stops at a standing lock! I wish I could explain why chin na is demoed they way it is but, I honestly have no clue. :confused:

They demo it that way because they don't train it in a realistic manner against resisting opponents. That's how so many unrealistic techniques end up there.