Training in the past, no one knows

[brianlkennedy]

I was talking with someone in another thread about how and what people at the original Jingwu Association trained in. My answer was "nobody knows what daily training was like".

When people talk about Chinese martial arts of the past the general presumption is that "everyone trained hard, busted ass, just like in a Shaw Brothers movie".

But in fact nobody knows what daily training was like in the past in China. The earliest we really have any idea about would be the early 1960s!! No fooling, prior to the 1960s there are no real records that provide any detail about how people actually trained. Note the emphasis there; how they "actually" trained, not how the various manuals said they "should" train.

Based on what few records we have of the various Qing military groups---the training may well have been quite lazy and half assed. Truth be told I have long suspected that Chinese martial arts training in the past--be it the "recent past" of the Qing dynasty/Republican Period, or the more distant past of the Ming---may not have been very demanding. I have no proof of that, it is just my suspicion, guess or gut feeling.

It is an interesting question to ponder.

take care,
Brian

[sanjuro_ronin]

IF their training was like those done in other countries at the time, by comparable people, it probably was more of a "passtime" like it is now.
Outside of professionals and warrior castes, the only people doing MA would a citizen militia, which means on their free time, what very limited they had, or people doing it for "health reasons" and that was somethign that cam muck later on, or they were people that WANTED or HAD to be MA, family member perhaps.
If people had NO jobs, they would have to be rich and the fact is, most rich people had better things to do than learn a "lower class hobby".
I would think that, outside of professional warriors/soldiers, those that took MA probably did what we all still do-
Work a full time job and train when we can.

[Jimbo]

Brian,
The thought had occurred to me that one possible way to gauge how at least some of the old training was done could be to examine how the very early practitioners of Okinawan karate trained. I had read that prior to the art being brought to mainland Japan, the training in Okinawa was far less formal or structured. Often people went to train whenever they could, and the 'dojo' was generally a courtyard with a dirt 'floor' or wherever they cold train. It seemed more geared to the individual as opposed to the larger group.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Brian,
The thought had occurred to me that one possible way to gauge how at least some of the old training was done could be to examine how the very early practitioners of Okinawan karate trained. I had read that prior to the art being brought to mainland Japan, the training in Okinawa was far less formal or structured. Often people went to train whenever they could, and the 'dojo' was generally a courtyard with a dirt 'floor' or wherever they cold train. It seemed more geared to the individual as opposed to the larger group.

Quite correct, daily practice was virtually impossible, though I am sure many tried to train daily.
The vast majority did NOT have the leisure time, unless it was their profession or they were family they would NOT get daily attention from the teacher.

[Drake]

It doesn't help that people off the street expect their instructor to be a "ninja master first class" and have had killed 20 people with his bare hands before even considering attending their school.

It's sad, because it promotes ridiculous overpromoting and downright deception in order to stand a chance at being competitive.

The truth is, for most people coming off the streets, a respectable martial arts instructor doesn't have to be that super shadow ninja they expect and plan to brag about learning from (the overpromotion works both ways).

So now, like back then, the market for martial arts, an unnecessary hobby that can be expensive during a time of recession, goes to the one who can shamelessly promote himself the best.

[Chief_Suicide]

...but I think the previous posters have the right idea.

We can only do what we have the ability to do. I have to support my family, so I work. I go to class twice a weak and practice techniques and forms when I have the spare time.

In class we'll go full out some days, and slow others. When we train two person techniques, I hate the pace, but I know I'm learning.

When we spar, sometimes your opponent fights hard, sometimes they act like they don't want to fight.

We can only hope for or search out good teachers, try as hard as we can, whenever we can. I'd say it was the same 100 years ago.

[PHILBERT]

It doesn't help that people off the street expect their instructor to be a "ninja master first class" and have had killed 20 people with his bare hands before even considering attending their school.

It's sad, because it promotes ridiculous overpromoting and downright deception in order to stand a chance at being competitive.

The truth is, for most people coming off the streets, a respectable martial arts instructor doesn't have to be that super shadow ninja they expect and plan to brag about learning from (the overpromotion works both ways).

So now, like back then, the market for martial arts, an unnecessary hobby that can be expensive during a time of recession, goes to the one who can shamelessly promote himself the best.

People who believe this, or pretend that they are a super shadow master who has killed 20 people, have no business being in the martial arts to begin with.

I never believed a lot of these stories either. Like all good fairy tales, they are designed for a moral guidance and something to aim for or to appeal to, but not necessarily true.

I remember reading one story last night of one master who could kill a fly with a spear that was resting on a paper door without damaging the door. Again, fairy tales, something to appeal to.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Boxing gave me one of the bets perspectives I could have in the MA, I never expected my boxing coach to be able to kick the ass of the fighters he trained, I just expected him to be able to make me a better fighter, period.

[lkfmdc]

I think we can stratch back a little further than 1960, since we had access to people like Chan Tai San, Chang Dung Sheng, Lum Jo, etc....

But of course the general idea of the original post stands, we don't know much and our sneaking suspicians are that for most it wasn't very hard... in fact that is what the "old timers" like those named above will tell you!

The traditional way was the sifu showed you, then walked away, it was up to you. Human nature being what it was, many didn't follow up.

Some even thougt that once they had learned the technique, they would of course be able to use it! Even without training it

Thank g'd that mentality isn't around today :rolleyes:

[bawang]

".

But in fact nobody knows what daily training was like in the past in China.

hey man if u write so many books, how can u not know what training was like in the past. dont u do research

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think we can stratch back a little further than 1960, since we had access to people like Chan Tai San, Chang Dung Sheng, Lum Jo, etc....

But of course the general idea of the original post stands, we don't know much and our sneaking suspicians are that for most it wasn't very hard... in fact that is what the "old timers" like those named above will tell you!

The traditional way was the sifu showed you, then walked away, it was up to you. Human nature being what it was, many didn't follow up.

Some even thougt that once they had learned the technique, they would of course be able to use it! Even without training it

Thank g'd that mentality isn't around today :rolleyes:

Actually, its funny how deep rooted things can be.
Because of the current, now over, World cup, A friend of mine got to do a workout with the local Toronto FC, the professional soccer time in Toronto, and asked me to join him.
I used to play in Portugal, as a junior, for a 1st division team and was pretty good, though not the best on my team.
Now, my incredible out of shapness aside, I did really well that the coach and a few players asked what time I play on now ( assuming I still played in a club team), when I said this was the first time I kicked a ball in years and the first time since 86 that I trained with a high caliber team, they didn't believe me.
It took a bit to get the rust out, but it all came back while I played.

So, while constant training is obviously quite important to maintain a high level of skill ( well duh !!), we never truly forget that skill, though it does get rusty.

[Lee Chiang Po]

I suspect people have not changed that much. There were the radical enthusiests, the lazy slackers, and all those in between.

[lkfmdc]

Actually, its funny how deep rooted things can be.
Because of the current, now over, World cup, A friend of mine got to do a workout with the local Toronto FC, the professional soccer time in Toronto, and asked me to join him.
I used to play in Portugal, as a junior, for a 1st division team and was pretty good, though not the best on my team.
Now, my incredible out of shapness aside, I did really well that the coach and a few players asked what time I play on now ( assuming I still played in a club team), when I said this was the first time I kicked a ball in years and the first time since 86 that I trained with a high caliber team, they didn't believe me.
It took a bit to get the rust out, but it all came back while I played.

So, while constant training is obviously quite important to maintain a high level of skill ( well duh !!), we never truly forget that skill, though it does get rusty.

Your post is hitting on a different aspect. Once you HAVE trained hard the skill is there. Heck, CTS chain smoked, drank, had diabetis and didn't train frequently but he could KILL YOU. He had done the hard training in his younger days

Chang Dung Sheng said he trained like an animal when he was young, BUT he noted he was the only one who did! His classmates were lazy he said

[bawang]

in the past people get conscripted by the army and train kung fu. you train hard because the army pays u monies and beat u with a stick if u dont.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Your post is hitting on a different aspect. Once you HAVE trained hard the skill is there. Heck, CTS chain smoked, drank, had diabetis and didn't train frequently but he could KILL YOU. He had done the hard training in his younger days

Chang Dung Sheng said he trained like an animal when he was young, BUT he noted he was the only one who did! His classmates were lazy he said

I know, that's why I didn't disagree and just add a view point.
I really am beginning to believe that MA are all about killing yourself when younger and then paying for it when you are older, LOL !!

[lkfmdc]

I really am beginning to believe that MA are all about killing yourself when younger and then paying for it when you are older, LOL !!

based upon my experiences including knowing many skilled practicioners, I'd say you choked out the correct on that one....

[Kevin73]

I'm sure that both schools and students are really no different than they are now. There were a few teachers who knew how to fight and passed on those skills to a few as well. Then you had people who learned a little bit and then opened their own schools and passed on incomplete knowledge to their students etc.

The McDojo has been around since MA has been taught to the public.

[Dragonzbane76]

I really am beginning to believe that MA are all about killing yourself when younger and then paying for it when you are older, LOL !!

more truth in that than most see. Coming up through MA's younger doing the hard end, beatings, punishment, conditioning, dislocated this and that, etc...etc... stuff that your body absorbs and then later punishes you for. yeah... i can assimilate with that.

[TenTigers]

We had a thread awhile back where we listed all the injuries we incurred from the years of training. Many of us with more than 30 yrs had pages.
Someone said,(probably MK)
"You would've been better off just getting your azz kicked!"

[MasterKiller]

We had a thread awhile back where we listed all the injuries we incurred from the years of training. Many of us with more than 30 yrs had pages.
Someone said,(probably MK)
"You would've been better off just getting your azz kicked!"

LOL. That was me!

[jmd161]

Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin

I really am beginning to believe that MA are all about killing yourself when younger and then paying for it when you are older, LOL !!



based upon my experiences including knowing many skilled practicioners, I'd say you choked out the correct on that one....


Chang Dung Sheng said he trained like an animal when he was young, BUT he noted he was the only one who did! His classmates were lazy he said



My sifu speaks of this with his training... He trained very hard very young (he started @ 13) three times a day with his sifu, early before school, evening after school and a few hrs after dinner before bed. Because he was so anxious and devoted to learn his sifu pushed him as well. It's the reason that by 25 he was expected to become the successor to his sifu... although, he had training brothers who had trained more yrs than he was in age. :eek:

It's amazing when you meet someone with REAL skill... at over 60 yrs of age my sifu has the fastest hands of anyone I've ever met and the power behind them is just sick! It's funny when we train at the Chinese Freemason's Association... the members love to see him beating up on the big black guy (me). :D

I can imagine the stories being told of our training sifu is prolly the new Wong Fei Hung by now...:p LOL

[mickey]

Greetings,

I think lkfmdc touched truth when he mentioned the ones who established themselves in their discipline. It is from their experiences that we learn that those who really wanted "it" trained for it with great passion. Of course, there were those who went and trained for health or for social reasons.

I think if we go before the 20th century we start to see divisions such as military, civilian, and religious disciplines: the way that the late Donn Draeger categorized the arts. Such things as location, time of day, the person's place in society, become important factors.

mickey

[Knifefighter]

It's amazing when you meet someone with REAL skill... at over 60 yrs of age my sifu has the fastest hands of anyone I've ever met and the power behind them is just sick! It's funny when we train at the Chinese Freemason's Association... the members love to see him beating up on the big black guy (me). :D

When you post the clips of your full contact chi na, please also include some clips of him beating up on you when the two of you are sparring full contact.

[sanjuro_ronin]

When you post the clips of your full contact chi na, please also include some clips of him beating up on you when the two of you are sparring full contact.

You wanna see a video of him and a 60 year old man fighting full contact?
Dude...

[Knifefighter]

You wanna see a video of him and a 60 year old man fighting full contact?
Dude...

He's the one who says it happens.

[IronWeasel]

He's the one who says it happens.



I nail the wife every now and again. I'm usually the only one there to see it....

Do we need video of that...or can you just take my word for it?

:cool:

[Lucas]

I nail the wife every now and again. I'm usually the only one there to see it....

Do we need video of that...or can you just take my word for it?

:cool:

how hot is your wife?

[MysteriousPower]

My sifu speaks of this with his training... He trained very hard very young (he started @ 13) three times a day with his sifu, early before school, evening after school and a few hrs after dinner before bed. Because he was so anxious and devoted to learn his sifu pushed him as well. It's the reason that by 25 he was expected to become the successor to his sifu... although, he had training brothers who had trained more yrs than he was in age. :eek:

It's amazing when you meet someone with REAL skill... at over 60 yrs of age my sifu has the fastest hands of anyone I've ever met and the power behind them is just sick! It's funny when we train at the Chinese Freemason's Association... the members love to see him beating up on the big black guy (me). :D

I can imagine the stories being told of our training sifu is prolly the new Wong Fei Hung by now...:p LOL


Are you another one of those secret society cronies? Hiding in the training hall and training the deadly skills?

Knifefighter has a good point. Were you guys sparring or were you doing demonstrations? Were you guys resisting his "fast hands"?

[MysteriousPower]

I nail the wife every now and again. I'm usually the only one there to see it....

Do we need video of that...or can you just take my word for it?

:cool:

I could not stop laughing after reading this. I want a video to prove that you nail your wife and especially videos of when others are around witnessing. Have you tried submitting her while in the act? I am just trying to help you reach new levels of intimacy. LOL

[David Jamieson]

He's the one who says it happens.

You say a lot of stuff too. Got video for all that? :p
I'm somewhat surprised you're still all wrapped up in that attitude man.
It is slightly goofy for a guy your age.

[Faruq]

Brian,
The thought had occurred to me that one possible way to gauge how at least some of the old training was done could be to examine how the very early practitioners of Okinawan karate trained. I had read that prior to the art being brought to mainland Japan, the training in Okinawa was far less formal or structured. Often people went to train whenever they could, and the 'dojo' was generally a courtyard with a dirt 'floor' or wherever they cold train. It seemed more geared to the individual as opposed to the larger group.

That's surprising. I read that Okinawan karate came into use as a way for the people to defend themselves againgst the samurai, and with basically farm implements at that. So how could they train like that and be able to defend themselves against professional killers? It's just what I read, so I realize it's probably wrong based on the facts everyone is citing here. But I thought I'd post it for discussion's sake.

[IronWeasel]

how hot is your wife?



She looks like Mr. Miyagi with a pu$$y.

...so, yeah. Kinda hot.

[sanjuro_ronin]

That's surprising. I read that Okinawan karate came into use as a way for the people to defend themselves againgst the samurai, and with basically farm implements at that. So how could they train like that and be able to defend themselves against professional killers? It's just what I read, so I realize it's probably wrong based on the facts everyone is citing here. But I thought I'd post it for discussion's sake.

When Japan took over Okinawa, the native art of "te" went underground, and I am sure certain things were trained to deal with the samurai in specific, but Okinawan Karate did NOT come about BECAUSE of the Samurai.
AS for HOW the Okinawanas could fight against the samurai that were professional fighters?
The answer was they couldn't, hence Okinawa was under Japanese control for centuries.

[Kevin73]

When Japan took over Okinawa, the native art of "te" went underground, and I am sure certain things were trained to deal with the samurai in specific, but Okinawan Karate did NOT come about BECAUSE of the Samurai.
AS for HOW the Okinawanas could fight against the samurai that were professional fighters?
The answer was they couldn't, hence Okinawa was under Japanese control for centuries.

Exactly. There is no documented proof that the okinawans developed their fighting art to defend themselves against samurai. Another myth closely related to that is the purpose of the makiwara was to develop a punch that could go through the samurai armor...Nope.

Okinawan karate was much like training in boxing was here in the US during it's hayday. Your dad or uncle would have boxed when he was younger or learned some in the military and then taught you some fundamentals, maybe even a neighbor kid would train with you. If you showed promise or really liked it, then you sought out a gym or a coach to teach you more. From the readings I've read it was much the same way in many cases for the okinawans as well, it was more informal and family oriented. It wasn't until the japanese got a hold of it that you had the strict structure and big classes to prepare young men for war. The japanese classes very much reflect a military structure and how to instill that military discipline.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Exactly. There is no documented proof that the okinawans developed their fighting art to defend themselves against samurai. Another myth closely related to that is the purpose of the makiwara was to develop a punch that could go through the samurai armor...Nope.

Okinawan karate was much like training in boxing was here in the US during it's hayday. Your dad or uncle would have boxed when he was younger or learned some in the military and then taught you some fundamentals, maybe even a neighbor kid would train with you. If you showed promise or really liked it, then you sought out a gym or a coach to teach you more. From the readings I've read it was much the same way in many cases for the okinawans as well, it was more informal and family oriented. It wasn't until the japanese got a hold of it that you had the strict structure and big classes to prepare young men for war. The japanese classes very much reflect a military structure and how to instill that military discipline.

Kevin has toe kicked the correct in the prostate !

[Faruq]

When Japan took over Okinawa, the native art of "te" went underground, and I am sure certain things were trained to deal with the samurai in specific, but Okinawan Karate did NOT come about BECAUSE of the Samurai.
AS for HOW the Okinawanas could fight against the samurai that were professional fighters?
The answer was they couldn't, hence Okinawa was under Japanese control for centuries.

Thanks. Makes sense. I don't know how so many myths come about.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Thanks. Makes sense. I don't know how so many myths come about.

People WANT to believe they are training the uber-deadly, that's why and no one more so than white people.

[jmd161]

When you post the clips of your full contact chi na, please also include some clips of him beating up on you when the two of you are sparring full contact.

Never said I spar full contact with my 60+ yr old sifu but, some how you find that in what I said. :confused:



I'm somewhat surprised you're still all wrapped up in that attitude man.
It is slightly goofy for a guy your age.

Slightly?

It's obvious he bust some kind of nut off being an a$$...:rolleyes:



Are you another one of those secret society cronies? Hiding in the training hall and training the deadly skills?

Knifefighter has a good point. Were you guys sparring or were you doing demonstrations? Were you guys resisting his "fast hands"?

If i'm talking about the speed of his hands at some point I had to be on the opposite side of them... common sense would tell me that. I don't have to fight full contact with him to see that either.

[Dragonzbane76]

Exactly. There is no documented proof that the okinawans developed their fighting art to defend themselves against samurai. Another myth closely related to that is the purpose of the makiwara was to develop a punch that could go through the samurai armor...Nope.

Okinawan karate was much like training in boxing was here in the US during it's hayday. Your dad or uncle would have boxed when he was younger or learned some in the military and then taught you some fundamentals, maybe even a neighbor kid would train with you. If you showed promise or really liked it, then you sought out a gym or a coach to teach you more. From the readings I've read it was much the same way in many cases for the okinawans as well, it was more informal and family oriented. It wasn't until the japanese got a hold of it that you had the strict structure and big classes to prepare young men for war. The japanese classes very much reflect a military structure and how to instill that military discipline.

nice post. little tid bitty of history. :)

[Knifefighter]

Never said I spar full contact with my 60+ yr old sifu but, some how you find that in what I said. :confused:

Well, since you said he beats you up and that's what has to happen for someone to get beat up, then yes that's what one would conclude.

If you and he aren't sparring full contact, you really have no idea if he could beat you.

[uki]

based on society as it is observed today, it is safe to say that the majority of practioners in ages past were much more well rounded in ability, general conditioning, and overall strength. how many martial artist people in this day and age are farmers or masons - actually partake in physical activity in their lives in order to earn their bread?? how many apply martial conceptual application to daily work routines?? many martial artists of the modern world are absorbed in a monotonous existence devoid of any relevant understanding - they carry on with McJobs, train in a McWay, and follow a McMaster... people are creatively clueless when it comes to martial arts(or life in general) and the majority of threads begun on this forum are testament enough of this fact... of course we do not know how they trained in the days long past, but we can compare existential lifestyles based on cultural history and basic consciousness of the time... today people are ruled by fear - a casual glance around the local supermarket should be proof enough of the helpless state mankind, as a whole, finds itself today and the dominant martial arts attitude hasn't fallen far from this tree. :)

[MartialDev]

If serious training in China then was anything like serious training in China now, then maybe students were beaten for training wrong. Or for training right. Or for not training enough?

[David Jamieson]

while some of the cynicism rings true in your post Uki, I am pretty sure there are a lot of people who practice martial arts as part of their workaday life but don't treat it as some mundane thing. Unless they're quite good, in which case they are fetching wood and carrying water.

Besides, living in the here and now, where there is less call to train for impending bandits or robbers not armed with guns is likely a better alternative than the scrounging for a living that had to be done long before you could get any training done.

There has and will always be those who don't put their best efforts into their work. There is a lot of mediocrity that's for sure. In fact, I think it effects everyone once in a while. lol, that's life. It's not a continuous cycle of exciting moments. Most of the time it's just breathing. lol

[Sardinkahnikov]

Training hard is all about proper motivation, IMO.

There have been times that, after experience violence or dealing with violent people, I went to the training sessions with revigored pourpose and worked my ass off, doing all the drills, conditioning exercises, sparring, etc, because I saw that I NEEDED them to have a better chance of handling myself. It's the sudden realization that "hey, I might have to actually defend myself someday after all". I've never been in the military, but I imagine that, if you're going to war, your mindset might be similar to that.

I've talked to some friends about this, and they report the same feeling regarding training MA after an experience that made them feel vulnerable. Maybe the trick is trying to mantain such motivation constantly, since urban life and desk jobs usually makes us fat and lazy.

[jmd161]

Well, since you said he beats you up and that's what has to happen for someone to get beat up, then yes that's what one would conclude.

If you and he aren't sparring full contact, you really have no idea if he could beat you.

By beating me up I meant when they see him tossing me around or applying a technique on me. It was more of a joke because we know how stories get told and grow to legend in CMA... thus the part about him probably being called the new WFH. I thought that was pretty clear but I guess not...

In any case I have been on the receiving end of his strikes. He will tell you to try and block, stop, re-direct a strike... and he throws it with speed and power. He expects you to use your speed and power to do so. I've been hit more than a few times as he blew through my attempt...I've had my share and continue to get my share of bruises and bloody lips. I understand what you say about guys scared to hit their sifu out of respect or whatever but, i assure you that's not the case here.

[brianlkennedy]

One thing that is always interesting to hear is when folks claim "oh in the past students trained "x" number of hours per day..seven days a week, year round except for Lunar New Year.

The problem with that, and you see this all the time in Taiwan (and I have been "guilty" of it too) is an "hour" of training consists of:
1. stand around for awhile yacking with your friends
2. kind of half ass walk through a form
3. have some tea
4. talk some more
5. do 5 minutes of stance work
6. sit down
7. yack some more with your friends
8. listen to "sifu" tell a story
9. go through a form with some speed and power
10 rest
....hour over! And although you can claim you trained for an hour, you basically did about 5 minutes worth of work. This is very common in modern training in Taiwan and I suspect it was somewhat the case in the past too.

take care,
Brian

[Jimbo]

lol, that's a very accurate description of the first place I trained at in Taiwan. I might also add to that the cigarettes smoked by the teacher and some of the seniors during class.

That's probably one of the big reasons behind the high popularity of TKD in Taiwan.

[B.Tunks]

We do know how at least some people trained prior to 1960's in China. Apart from there being a great deal of anecdotal evidence from those still alive, dating back to at least the 30's, there are also existing records from the guoshuguan of many cities and the major military academies, some of which detail curriculum and training programs. Earlier than that, there are records going back to the Ming detailing such matters (though less civilian, more military).

Of course there have always been lazy hobbyists who exerted very little effort in training (usually the rich who sometimes trained as an indulgance/distraction or following a trendy fad) but there are also many places, particularly in central, North and North East China where almost the entire male population of villages trained for many hours a day during down times in crop production. This was also the case in border Provinces such as Xinjiang, Yunnan and Guangxi, though not necessarily seasonal. It wasn't very long ago that most of these villages training was actually militia training designed for killing enemies - so pretty far off from martial arts as a hobby.

Perhaps the training was crap in comparison to modern training methods but the intent was serious and it is highly unlikely that the majority of these individuals did not exert some serious effort. It is also a bit difficult to compare the amount of effort exerted today VS earlier times, at least in the case of peasant practitioners, as many were in a permanent state of malnutrition if not borderline starvation.

Of course many tales of the arduous methods of the old times are greatly exagerrated if not completely fabricated. Personally I think it would be wrong to suppose that the average level of conditioning of martial arts practitioners in pre-republic China would be any worse at that time than in any other large, heavily populated and socioeconomically diverse country with a tradition of fighting arts.

BT

[B.Tunks]

point taken on the "actual" vs "should".

[sanjuro_ronin]

One thing that is always interesting to hear is when folks claim "oh in the past students trained "x" number of hours per day..seven days a week, year round except for Lunar New Year.

The problem with that, and you see this all the time in Taiwan (and I have been "guilty" of it too) is an "hour" of training consists of:
1. stand around for awhile yacking with your friends
2. kind of half ass walk through a form
3. have some tea
4. talk some more
5. do 5 minutes of stance work
6. sit down
7. yack some more with your friends
8. listen to "sifu" tell a story
9. go through a form with some speed and power
10 rest
....hour over! And although you can claim you trained for an hour, you basically did about 5 minutes worth of work. This is very common in modern training in Taiwan and I suspect it was somewhat the case in the past too.

take care,
Brian

Ah dude, I have trained in Canada, Japan, Macao, Portugal, Spain, Holland and the ONE consistency I have seen is this:
Hard training = short time, typically less than 90 min if class and less than 60 if a workout.
Long training sessions ( 2 hr, 3 hrs)= SOME training and way too much talking and shooting the ****.

[Drake]

One thing that is always interesting to hear is when folks claim "oh in the past students trained "x" number of hours per day..seven days a week, year round except for Lunar New Year.

The problem with that, and you see this all the time in Taiwan (and I have been "guilty" of it too) is an "hour" of training consists of:
1. stand around for awhile yacking with your friends
2. kind of half ass walk through a form
3. have some tea
4. talk some more
5. do 5 minutes of stance work
6. sit down
7. yack some more with your friends
8. listen to "sifu" tell a story
9. go through a form with some speed and power
10 rest
....hour over! And although you can claim you trained for an hour, you basically did about 5 minutes worth of work. This is very common in modern training in Taiwan and I suspect it was somewhat the case in the past too.

take care,
Brian

You see that during Army training too, particularly during muscle failure days. They want PT to last an hour to an hour and a half, when the ground truth is that I can smoke the dog-sh** out of myself in well under 20 minutes. But, we can't leave, so we drag out the workout.

Same with martial arts. Hit the bag for a while, and see how long you last without taking time to chill out a bit and catch your breath.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Same with martial arts. Hit the bag for a while, and see how long you last without taking time to chill out a bit and catch your breath.

Did this a few years ago, at a few places.
Going balls to the wall, a very well conditioned fighter can last maybe 60-90 sec.
Think about hitting the HB with all you got as fast as you can, non-stop.
Even with a more "paced" intensity, if you go balls to the wall with every shot you'll be lucky to get 5 min if you are in awesome shape, probably 2-3 min more typically.