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bennyvt
07-14-2010, 08:20 AM
Many people over this forum have made the coment that any fighting is VT. Any movement can be interpeted in anyway. Many other styles use the same shapes or movements as us therefore it is the same. others say there are no moves or techniques in VT only concepts or theories.
I feel That this is a wierd way of looking at things. Understanding that I train in shootfighting and grappling (as a secondary to VT) this is not meant as a VT is supreme thread.
I feel that VT teaches you how use your body IN THE MOST ECCONOMICAL WAY possible. While traing in other styles I have seen the similarities and even been taught things that although have different names are the same. I feel that the VT system is there to teach you how to express your own way of fighting WHILE KEEPING AS CLOSE TO THE RULES AS POSSIBLE TO MAINTAIN TO THE MOST ECONOMICAL AND POWERFULL MOVEMENTS. Being a WSL lineage and barry being a great advocate of making the style work for you I find people take it too far. Making it work for you refers to doing VT techniques and when not able, changing to be able to adapt to the person and be able to hit. This depends on the motivation of the move that you do.
Are you going around because there is opposition against the move or are you just throwing a looping hook. Are you doing five moves to get a hit or are you blocked successfully four times so it takes five move to get a hit. Are you changing a VT move as slightly as possible to get a strike while being protected or are you just breaking the rules totally with no excuse other then you felt like it.
Adapting moves to make them work while trying to stick to the concepts and theories of VT is OK. Using moves from other styles and justifying it by saying "But it fits this rule" is not VT.
I have come to the understanding that if I hit the ground, (I still think I can control in the clinch, but that's my prefference as my shoot is not as good as my VT) I have to do grappling, while I can add or use VT to grab, block, strike, feel, control etc I am adding my VT techniques to a grappling base be that gaurd or mount. But the grappling is grappling and the VT is VT I don't care what names you want to call the moves.

chusauli
07-14-2010, 11:28 AM
There is the saying in WCK, "Kuen Yau Sum Faat" - and it can be interpreted as "Fist comes from the heart/mind".

If you use WCK mechanics, largely what you are doing is WCK. When I studied Gu Lao WCK, it has a lot of unusual motions unlike that found in Yip Man system. But it is still WCK. Many people here never studied that. Only Lee Shing system bears a lot of Gu Lao WCK motions, and the few Ku Lo WCK people here.

A boxing jab and cross is not WCK, especially if it is using the waist torque and on the balls of the feet pivot (a la Tiger Woods drive) of boxing - but a lead punch, and a cross punch with hip pump and Bik Ma with feet flat are WCK.

Things out of the box largely come from Biu Jee concept of emergency to regain centerline.

In studying many systems, you see that WCK has a lead in to Chin na and Shuai Fa (Joint Locks and Throwing) which can easily be set up using WCK, and surprisingly, some overlap.

sihing
07-14-2010, 01:24 PM
That's a good post Robert:)

If I were to end up on the ground and had the skills to apply a triangle choke or kimura, I wouldn't call that VT. What is similar is the idea of learning structure, positions and proper use of leverage and so forth, and from what I understand of BJJ, those things are paramount when learning the art. Let's be honest, most publicly trained Martial Arts do not teach these things, not to the average joe. I've taught Martial Arts professionally for over 10yrs now, I've met allot of people coming in to learn Wing Chun that were trained in other arts (karate, judo, TKD, boxing, etc..) and as soon as I start to talk about WC, and show them how it works, they for the most part all say they've never seen a MA taught this way with this type of emphasis before. Most are used to being shown a move and practicing it that way. Not saying that this exclusive to WC at all, there are plenty of sophisticated MA out there besides VT.

IMO VT is a great base system as you are learning a really good way to move your body, you learn how to sap every thing it has to offer in relation to effective and efficiency in combat, but the practitioner still has the responsibility to make it work for themselves as VT cannot fight, people do.

So to me VT is a physical training system to give us very sharp and effective tools for fighting/striking on the inside, but because of the knowledge of body mechanics and structure learned you can apply this to non striking situations, chi na/anti chi na, takedowns, even GnP once down. For eg, Gary Lam teaches the theory of power points (ankle, knee, hip, shoulder, elbow, wrist), each joint is a power generation point, when I learn to use them to help me improve my striking power, I am also learning how to shut them down on someone else, so they can't generate power or move for that matter temporarily.

For me the key thing is to not be fixed in my application, I'm free to throw any type of strike I need to use to win over my opponent, the training has just given me a method to strike that allows me to do so non telegraphically, and to use my horse/legs for power generation. My goal is not to express VT movements in a fight, but rather to defeat my enemy in any way I can.

James

Dave McKinnon
07-14-2010, 03:26 PM
Wing Chun
Understanding of Timing, Distance, Position, and Mechanical advantage
- all applicable to other systems

Trained on a platform of structure and mechanics unique to our Kung Fu system
- lets call it Wing Chun the system and further say the unique method each school uses to train it.

couch
07-14-2010, 04:03 PM
WC to me is just a means to an end...and it's the basis for everything I do.

For me when I'm boxing, I'm still doing Wing Chun. I put everything I do into the Wing Chun filter and it comes out as my expression.

End note: I think that Wing Chun is a way to learn how to fight in order to then discard it and fight as a personal expression.

tigershorty
07-17-2010, 11:06 PM
to be fair, you can't help but present personal expression at ALL times since no human is perfect and it is you always doing the motions (add all that to a fight). to me this is the reason behind wing chun. you're learning to be technique-less and at the same time you are learning techniques.

you're learning a blue print, rules, concepts that are good ideas for perfect situations and imperfect situations. you're not going to do it perfectly in execution all the time/most the time in a real fight. wing chun is basically hedging the bets by being honest with itself. it's not saying you're going to be a great master. it's saying, crap is going to hit the fan and here are the best tools to get you out of it, and it's not gonna be pretty, but you got a good a chance because you're operating under some concepts that make sense that are built around reproducible results in situations where you don't have time to make a lot of mistakes. you're looking at a fight the same basic way every time. this is helpful as it reduces personal expression, which can cause mistakes. the less personal expression, the better chance you have. you are training to be a machine, perfect. but you will never be...and that's okay! personal expression deteriorates, isn't consistent, and is rarely talent. this is why people practice. personal expression get's confused in sports, but what makes kobe bryant is his fundamentals in clutch times. he shows off with maximum personal expression when he's up by 20 points. mastering fundamentals is the goal in any art.

that's just my opinion, tho.

YungChun
07-18-2010, 05:02 AM
There are Chun mechanics and Chun techniques if you are not using them then it's a tough sell to say you're doing Chun...

On the other hand I have found that Chun training has a strong emphasis and impact on building attributes which can be more generic. These things can crossover IMO or extend to other methods and even other techniques..

Personal expression is ever-present but how it manifests is telling..

The Japanese arts refer to shu ha ri...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuhari

This addresses, in essence, the stages of how we integrate our training into our person and how it becomes a part of us.. Similar to what Bruce meant when he said "Learn the principle, abide by the principle, dissolve the principle.." In the end you are simply expressing yourself.. (We also used to say at that point you don't do kung fu your kung fu does you) Still, we are very much a product of what we have trained and how we have trained but at the final stage we are free from rules and self or system imposed limitations..

k gledhill
07-18-2010, 09:20 AM
Im still figuring it out myself, when I know, I will let you know... so far its kicking my arse :D but now it takes a little longer for that to happen than before ;)

Graham H
07-23-2010, 11:08 AM
VT teaches you two things. Teach the whole body to punch and maintain punching until your opponent is unable to continue and secondly if that goes wrong somehow then you run away or accept a beating. Simple thinking. No need to over analyze. ;)

LoneTiger108
07-23-2010, 12:18 PM
There is the saying in WCK, "Kuen Yau Sum Faat" - and it can be interpreted as "Fist comes from the heart/mind".

Have you ever heard the great English saying "WINDMILL IN!!" :D That's some true 'heart/mind boxing' right there!


If you use WCK mechanics, largely what you are doing is WCK. When I studied Gu Lao WCK, it has a lot of unusual motions unlike that found in Yip Man system. But it is still WCK. Many people here never studied that. Only Lee Shing system bears a lot of Gu Lao WCK motions, and the few Ku Lo WCK people here.

Yes, parts of what Lee Shing taught can be considered as Gu Lao (Kulo) in origin, but I have to say it for the record; he represented Ip Man WCK.


A boxing jab and cross is not WCK, especially if it is using the waist torque and on the balls of the feet pivot (a la Tiger Woods drive) of boxing - but a lead punch, and a cross punch with hip pump and Bik Ma with feet flat are WCK.

Waist torque is practised in Chum Kiu and is throughout any angling and side body WCK too. The boxers jab with a follow through (pushing with the ball of the foot) may not be WCK if it's over committed, as we don't do that imho. But we will always use the whole body to hit preferably which includes turning of the waist.

For me, I find it easier to relate to people that have learnt the general Ip Man curriculum, as this is WCK. So, if you practice SLT, CK, BJ, MYJ, LDBG, BJD, sandbags and chisau, you are doing WCK. How you do this with whatever theory, kuit or principles will influence the overall image, but the construct of the curriculum is still present.

Forms, Equipment & Weaponry make WCK a very complete system imho and that's what we should concentrate on first. How we fight with that is totally personal and I don't think it's easy to actually say what we should look like or how we should move.

My Sifu used to say things like "if you can see how I beat you, I wasn't doing Wing Chun good enough!" I could never see how he beat me! ;) He had to show me.

Ip Man used a phrase to emulate WCK. Something like 'Wing Do Mui Fa Jong Fut Miu - Chun Low Toe Lay Yuen Lo Heung.' Translate as you will :cool: