Chain punching [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

edward

07-14-2010, 08:11 PM

This video helps to explain how Wing Chun chain punching is actually done and the proper way to develop it. All to often, people try to use pure speed and muscle and just simply blitz the non-confrontational opponent. But realistically people do fight back. Attacking done right is not a numbers game where you throw 10 attacks and hope 2 to 3 will land. The right mentality for a Wing Chun fighter is not being wasteful like a solider with a gatling gun who simply has fire power but waste rounds of ammunition. Instead you are a sniper, where almost every attack is almost guaranteed to hit and where you don't fire to waste bullets. The first drill is called freeze frame drill, in this simple concept drill, one attacks the other blocks, but only after the hit, giving the blocker the development of seeing how to regain the line, and the attacker time to also figure out where the nearest line of attack is. Once the drill can be done properly you take it to the next level, once you attack, the blocker once again tries to block, but by the time he initiates the block, you takeover his motion and throw your next attack. You then continue this process over and over again. In the end, you want to develop the skill, were you throw out an attack and can just rain it upon your opponent, who will never have the ability to block your attack, since your always one step ahead of him. In the end, this is what chain punching is really like in Wing Chun and one of the ways to develop it. And a closer glimpse as to how to apply your sticky hand skills in real fighting situations

k gledhill

07-14-2010, 11:46 PM

wrong thinking, your "partner" should be striking you back with "chain punches" the drills show unaligned counter striking. NOT doing kwan sao :D guys who use kwan sao havent really gotten the whole idea...sorry. A few seconds trying to punch me in th face will prove the 'idea' :D

try to angle your selves with movement and striking to create a flanking attacking angle with a striking arm alone, then if contact is made , like a X'ing wrists as each partner strikes, then the more experienced/faster reacting partner will jut sao and remove the jutting hand as the following hand strikes and takes the lead line of attack , while the jutting hand cycles back to wu sao to make the next attack, etc.... depending on the angles each of you make trying to vie for a position in a face off using side stances and mobility to feint with movement etc...prior to striking.

YungChun

07-15-2010, 03:20 AM

1. There's no such thing as chain punching--there is Chun punching..

2. Fan sao with various strikes and techniques is not "chain punching" either.

3. If you're going to do Chun attacks and chun counters might as well do ChiSao..a real opponent will never react like that.

4.. If you're going to do ChiSao, Chun techniques, punching, etc breaking structure and body power is key..not "blocking"...

5. And as usual too many choppy chop chops...

LoneTiger108

07-15-2010, 04:16 AM

1. There's no such thing as chain punching--there is Chun punching....

wrong thinking, your "partner" should be striking you back with "chain punches" the drills show unaligned counter striking.

You guys really don't give anyone a chance do you??! :rolleyes: I'm sure we're all masters of ourselves, but how about more constructive assistance?

Firstly, YungChun, there is 'chain' punching in what I do, although the term I would use is 'linked' or 'continuous'. It's called 'Lien Wan Chun Kuen'.

I like Kevs proposal, as this sounds like one of my first partner drills for chunkuen, forearm to forearm, left to right contact. BUT I would also suggest developing your chunkuen on the wooden man.

All this negativity towards quansau is silly imo. For me, quansau rocks! :D

edward

07-15-2010, 06:06 AM

**** k_g... your like a kwan sau killer.... LOL:)

k gledhill

07-15-2010, 06:27 AM

the 'chain punch" isnt a fist after fist, its arms aligned with elbows to develop a forearm angled enough to create a defensive line AS you each strike at one another....if you make contact while striking along the centerline , then you jut , pak etc....

Kwan sao is a low bong done on the dummy for ballistic displacement, tan sao is a punching energy ..each is cycling into and out of attacks or defensive partnerships on the dummy. Dont think of 'snap shot' poses . kwan sao is bad
1) turning inside the opponents range of fire to chase an arm with 2
2) using 2 arms to fight a simple punch
3) tan sao strikes using the elbow to spread off the line as it strikes forwards not a lateral block.
4) we only turn to face the opponents positions as they move, not to redirect force.
5) each partner should be helping the other to make attacking actions in every move at each other.

k gledhill

07-15-2010, 06:35 AM

You guys really don't give anyone a chance do you??! :rolleyes: I'm sure we're all masters of ourselves, but how about more constructive assistance?

Firstly, YungChun, there is 'chain' punching in what I do, although the term I would use is 'linked' or 'continuous'. It's called 'Lien Wan Chun Kuen'.

I like Kevs proposal, as this sounds like one of my first partner drills for chunkuen, forearm to forearm, left to right contact. BUT I would also suggest developing your chunkuen on the wooden man.

All this negativity towards quansau is silly imo. For me, quansau rocks! :D

'nuff said about kwan sao.:D if I can occupy you with one arm and you have to use 2 to fight my one ...well :D
we do continuous punching but with the VT idea about elbows etc... low elbows make good bridging forearm angles to attack with and create natural barriers to our OWN centerline as we enter to attack one another...like creating an intersection of potential lines of force to connect with, our arms maintain center to strike along the invisible line we train along in forms etc...

the forearms left to right are , outside fore arm = tan sao strike / inside fore arm jum sao strike

dan chi-sao is this introduction to opposite energy of vt striking drill. Each strikes to the center but first adopting the starting point of the elbows ....strike versus strike tan elbow tries to displace the jums forearm/elbow, the jum sao tries to deflect the tan strike by simply holding the elbow inwards, while pointing the fingers at the guys center....redundant due to the fact that once you learn the striking of each energy, you dont punch in the same 1-2 sequence, you simply use striking attacks with 'inbuilt' unseen energy capable of maintaining line defense integrity while blasting into the opponent at tactical angles etc...very subtle angling is done.

once this idea is used you wont ever leave the center line to chase or over turn, because your giving the striker the next opening by your movement alone from the line to chase the incoming attacking action and responding with defensive actions alone or moving to much [turning] to avoid the attack rather than ...attack the attack.

LoneTiger108

07-15-2010, 09:05 AM

Kwan sao is a low bong done on the dummy for ballistic displacement, tan sao is a punching energy ..each is cycling into and out of attacks or defensive partnerships on the dummy. Dont think of 'snap shot' poses . kwan sao is bad.

I guess it is when you have such a narrow viewpoint of what it is! :rolleyes:

Seriously, is this your interpretation of quansau and what iti is used for?? It's correct in a very basic way, but there is so much more to it imo. The postures of Wing Chun (two handed postures that is) are very precise and without training or drilling them correctly you have a chance of missing what the signature of our style actually is...

Just food for thought. ;)

SAAMAG

07-15-2010, 09:26 AM

YungChun

07-15-2010, 10:03 AM

It's funny seeing everyone argue what is or isn't wing chun...seems that everyone knows the "right" way. :rolleyes:

Chain punching in it's purest form--is linked punches is it not? Isn't that what the translation is from Chinese? So how is it that all of you have such different ideas as to what it "truly" is and what it should be?

That's why the wing chun system as a whole will NEVER progress to an elite and proven form of fighting...too many people who are too big for their britches.
Hyperbolic nonsense.

So disagreement is at the root of what's wrong with the Chun world? Yeah lmfao.

Yes we should all be singing the same song and folks need to get their core straight..

There are after all certain basic things all Chun must have.. When most of that core is not there it probably should be addressed.. (ya think) If it isn't then there's no chance of ever having your choir of agreement, that you say is required for Chun to be an "elite and proven" art.. :rolleyes:

They are punches done in succession, one after the other, in a broad sense.

Yes however "Chain punching" seems to infer in action and thought that CPing is "a thing to do" like the "crazy eggbeater attack" or some kind of fixed method or how Chun fights...it is not, it's just more than one fist (strike) following .

edward

07-15-2010, 10:59 AM

ah the internet is so entertaining

anerlich

07-15-2010, 02:14 PM

So disagreement is at the root of what's wrong with the Chun world?

May not be the root cause, but it's a symptom that's hard to ignore.

k gledhill

07-15-2010, 03:57 PM

I guess it is when you have such a narrow viewpoint of what it is! :rolleyes:

Seriously, is this your interpretation of quansau and what iti is used for?? It's correct in a very basic way, but there is so much more to it imo. The postures of Wing Chun (two handed postures that is) are very precise and without training or drilling them correctly you have a chance of missing what the signature of our style actually is...

Just food for thought. ;)

in your opinion....you can do what you like with 'kwan sao' < im just opening your mind to a simple idea many seem to have lost for 'signature' poses...not a pose dude :D

try it on desmond ;) kwan sao him :D

k gledhill

07-15-2010, 03:59 PM

Its the fact that guys still think the chain punch/eggbeater is VT that amuses me...ed's vid is another to the list of :o works against your friends :D

k gledhill

07-15-2010, 04:07 PM

It's funny seeing everyone argue what is or isn't wing chun...seems that everyone knows the "right" way. :rolleyes:

Chain punching in it's purest form--is linked punches is it not? Isn't that what the translation is from Chinese? So how is it that all of you have such different ideas as to what it "truly" is and what it should be? They are punches done in succession, one after the other, in a broad sense.

That's why the wing chun system as a whole will NEVER progress to an elite and proven form of fighting...too many people who are too big for their britches.

chain punching in its purest form its root is based on what two basic striking energy's ?

the most basic thing we do, we start the SLT with them, we do dan chi-sao with them, we do chi-sao with them, we do the dummy with them together for alignment...

still think its fists on a straight line ...A to B :D really fast ! take that ! eggbeater from hell comin at ya ...too funny.

k gledhill

07-15-2010, 10:05 PM

ah the internet is so entertaining

Keep watching you may learn something to teach your students....really,... making your student/partner do a kwan sao as a counter attacking action...which part of kwan is attacking me ?....you wouldnt last 1 second of a sparring match...serious. All I would have to do is feint a punch and you would turn with 2 hands....no ? you dont think so ? :D too funny. VT proving is EVIL !

Tan sao never leaves the centerline because its a punch....jum sao never leaves the centerline. because its apunch..these are the 2 striking forces that control the alignment of our strikes. We spend our whole training lives perfecting their alignment drilling, for sparring for fighting...the dummy alignment, cycling rotation of attacking actions ... We do the same energy tan/jum for each arm so we can 'face' and fire at either angle to the opponent...seamless punching energy transfers to become either tan 'elbow spreads' or jum elbow inwards...each striking as they use the elbow idea....attacking simultaneously. Efficiency , directness, blah blah blah

imperialtaichi

07-15-2010, 11:01 PM

Hey Edward,

Good on you for putting your thoughts out and creating material for discussion.

No one is 100 percent right, nor 100 percent wrong. Discussions should really be more scientific and objective instead of "I'm better than you!" or "I'm right, you are wrong." Unfortunately we get plenty of that.

One question, what if the opponent decides to grab both your arms instead of blocking you one arm at a time?

Cheers,
John

k gledhill

07-15-2010, 11:11 PM

Its time i made a video....you guys are on my side ..partners , like it or not we are a family.

maybe you can see what Im talking about in actions. I feel silly berating you, when you cant even evaluate my input properly, visually and with detailed input.

There are varying levels of VT....your nose is your guide, like mine.

actions speak louder than woids...

imperialtaichi

07-16-2010, 12:23 AM

Cool KG, looking forward to that.

Graham H

07-16-2010, 05:14 AM

Kwan Sau is a combination of Bong Sau and a punch. It is performed on the Dummy the way it is because the Dummy is fixed......as it is with many actions in the form that cannot be performed correctly.

Kwan Sau = 50% Bong Sau 50% Strike. Anybody that is posing with Kwan Sau and trying to manipulate or control peoples arms with it need to step outside the Chi Sau bubble. That stuff don't work in reality.

GH

Graham H

07-16-2010, 05:19 AM

what if the opponent decides to grab both your arms instead of blocking you one arm at a time?

Cheers,
John

If your opponent tries to grab both your arms then maybe he is a little stupid. When you fight somebody they have one thing in mind. To land anything possible on you they can. Ving Tsun is a tool to help you deal deal with this mess. There would be nothing more pleasing for somebody to try and grab my arms in a fight. It would make it easier for me to box there ears in....:)

GH

LSWCTN1

07-16-2010, 05:30 AM

YungChun

07-16-2010, 06:25 AM

May not be the root cause, but it's a symptom that's hard to ignore.

And that's just the way it is... There is a ton of inconsistency in what is called Wing Chun because there are no standards, no checks and balances, no real qualifications. You mainly have a whole lot of folks who heard this, or heard that, that have no real experience...

There are certain basics that are often ignored, correct (or any) body power generation, structure destruction, connected and correct use of tools, training to work with real energy and release of power, even in the classical training, etc--it's clearly missing..

We see many examples of Chun on the net with no power, no body connection, no structure destruction, and instead slap happy/chop happy poses and methods that allow folks to "win" or look good in ChiSao (tag), etc.. That's why none of this will never even be seen in any fight because it doesn't address what happens in fights or what's needed to win fights...

Agreement is great... but agreement on things where the core is missing or ignored won't help anyone or any art reach any level of success..

sanjuro_ronin

07-16-2010, 06:27 AM

Bah, you pansies !!
http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr8/keithlan1/ipkilik.gif

edward

07-16-2010, 06:46 AM

@john the drill i showed is a basic way of doing it, eventually depending on your level different scenarios can be added in from grabbing the hands (i guess its possible someone would be dumb enough to do this) to shooting at your legs and grappling, etc, etc......

LoneTiger108

07-16-2010, 08:40 AM

in your opinion....you can do what you like with 'kwan sao' < im just opening your mind to a simple idea many seem to have lost for 'signature' poses...not a pose dude :D

Posture Kev. Not pose! ;) I never suggested I could 'do what I like' either, but I think most of what I write here is just misinterpreted.

Quansau is specific. Even the NAME means something, and I'll let you in on a little secret. There is NOTHING that states that quansau is used to attack two arms with one. There is NOTHING to suggest that both arms move at the same time. And there is absolutley NOTHING that suggests that you only practise this posture when you learn the 108 MYJ! :rolleyes: Seriously misguided info imho.

try it on desmond ;) kwan sao him :D

Why don't you ask him to come and see me?! You seem so keen for me to visit his school and offer some sort of challenge out to him dude. You like to stand behind your elders or something? :p

k gledhill

07-16-2010, 05:33 PM

Posture Kev. Not pose! ;) I never suggested I could 'do what I like' either, but I think most of what I write here is just misinterpreted.

Quansau is specific. Even the NAME means something, and I'll let you in on a little secret. There is NOTHING that states that quansau is used to attack two arms with one. There is NOTHING to suggest that both arms move at the same time. And there is absolutley NOTHING that suggests that you only practise this posture when you learn the 108 MYJ! :rolleyes: Seriously misguided info imho.

Why don't you ask him to come and see me?! You seem so keen for me to visit his school and offer some sort of challenge out to him dude. You like to stand behind your elders or something? :p

coming from the flag waving, ring of death merchant :rolleyes: your deluded...;)

imperialtaichi

07-16-2010, 07:12 PM

If your opponent tries to grab both your arms then maybe he is a little stupid. When you fight somebody they have one thing in mind. To land anything possible on you they can. Ving Tsun is a tool to help you deal deal with this mess. There would be nothing more pleasing for somebody to try and grab my arms in a fight. It would make it easier for me to box there ears in....:)

GH

Thanks GH :)

Ok, what about if someone decides to take a couple of your punches and wrap you up and throw you to the ground? Typical jujitsu type scenario.

In my opinion, if we train our strikes effectively, the opponent would fall before being able to pull us down. But what if the opponent is used to taking punches? Do we have a back-up plan since we are not ground fighting specialists?

Cheers,
John

k gledhill

07-16-2010, 08:43 PM

Many of my fights started with my wrists either both being grabbed, or the lead man sao while the guy/s would come low to make a strike...i used open palm strikes to good effect on the top of their heads for a stunning concussion. Or I would simply use the pressure sense we get from the seung ma toi ma to 'feel thier energy pulses as they tried to push me. I would use thier timing to make my move, sometimes to break out of the grabs to hit them, or let them grab my wrists knowing they couldnt hit me until they let go :D funny but after a while if a guy grabs the wrists its like okay now what ? :D head butts worked, elbows...
Bil gees lowering elbows are wrist grab escapes, even from 2 grabs with your back against a wall its very easy to regain your freedom from the grabs and continue...also a lan sao can be used with turning stances to simply put your elbow over their forearm as they push you...similar to chum kil....you can then take the energy of their pushing and keep them going into a wall etc...trap them and hit them or wait for ...assistance :D
Lop sao drills also have tying up methods to trap a grabber who doesnt let go of your bong wrist....

why we dont grab except for lop, bad habit.

edward

07-16-2010, 08:56 PM

Man there's no shortage in humor

k gledhill

07-16-2010, 11:55 PM

Man there's no shortage in humor

yeah!... your video is proof of that :D

edward

07-17-2010, 06:29 AM

i know you keep cracking me up......i wish i can write as much as you and show zero at the same time.. that's skill..:D

k gledhill

07-17-2010, 07:43 PM

thanks !:D

Graham H

07-18-2010, 05:12 AM

the strike should manipulate or control the opponents arm always. not just a chi sao idea

Would you care to explain???

GH

Graham H

07-18-2010, 05:23 AM

Thanks GH :)

Ok, what about if someone decides to take a couple of your punches and wrap you up and throw you to the ground? Typical jujitsu type scenario.

In my opinion, if we train our strikes effectively, the opponent would fall before being able to pull us down. But what if the opponent is used to taking punches? Do we have a back-up plan since we are not ground fighting specialists?

Cheers,
John

John

I'm not sure using the words..."If someone decides"......As my Instructor says....there is no time in fighting to think. Chi Sau gives us the tools to react instinctively hopefully using the correct action to shut down your opponent by attacking. Your thinking is correct by stating that we must train our strikes. Ving Tsun is a method of using the whole body for punching. Attention should be given to training the punch. The whole system exercises this idea.
Nobody is superhuman. If we are out fought then its just not our day. Bil Jee tells this. We must use brains to cut ones losses. The best back up plan is to run away!!!!!:)

GH

k gledhill

07-18-2010, 07:16 AM

"What if he does this ? " fighting is arm chair battling...what if they pull a gun or a knife ?
What if there are 2-3 more guys and your back is against the wall ? What if there are 2-3 or more of you and 5-6 of them with bottles , knives, crowd fighting in a chaotic environment ? Yes, sometimes you have to run, because the guy your trying to fight took off down the street when you started to attack him ;) Its not always US that has to run from a fight.:D
Vt is like being a psycho attacker, caution has to be taken before witnesses , due to the fact that even though you may be the one 'defending ' oneself, it looks to outsiders like a guy shoved you and you annihilated him for it with raining punches and kicks as he tries to get away from you...sometimes running away.
I have been involved in fights like this, where the 'good guys' vt friends , got involved defending waiters at a regular local Chinese restaurant we ate at from drunken 'suits' trying to fight them for 'sport' ....the vt guys got arrested for being seen as the ones beating the others up by witnesses :D. Jail for the good guys! defending the waiters because they had become so violent in their abilities to defend themselves they appeared to be the 'aggressors' .

Mental attitudes change as you fight more, you become less inclined to wait for guys to even have a chance to 'shape up' or make a first move on you. At the first sign of trouble or someone in 'your face' the vt 'welcome mat' is unleashed and its over before it ever got going.
Experience will be the only way to gain this personal level of knowing when to deliver a preemptive strike. Making whatever the guy does less of an issue because they are dealing with a broken jaw, nose, concussion....or a change in attitude to getting close to you again :D

Like GH mentions , sometimes the Bear wins.

Graham H

07-18-2010, 07:23 AM

you become less inclined to wait for guys to even have a chance to 'shape up' or make a first move on you. At the first sign of trouble or someone in 'your face' the vt 'welcome mat' is unleashed and its over before it ever got going.
.

Perfect VT theory!!!!;)

GH

imperialtaichi

07-18-2010, 08:42 PM

"if someone decides" is, of course, a figure of speech.

imperialtaichi

07-18-2010, 08:51 PM

In my opinion, there is no such thing as "excessive force" when your life in on the line. Unfortunately, the public, the jury, and people who had never been in a fight very often do not understand this.

In a real fight, unless the person is a seasoned fighter, most of us would be running on adrenaline and not brains. It is natural that an animal would do whatever to survive.

LSWCTN1

07-19-2010, 03:02 AM

Would you care to explain???

GH

we learn 'dont attack the castle, attack the walls';
meaning we shouldnt go headhunting without checking the arms. in our vt we dont trade hits.

it doesnt necessarily mean our bridges must always connect (although that tends to be the case). what i mean is that our striking arm should ALWAYS control the situation, and therefore the arms.

A good example: when i was with my present instructor for just a few months, i asked about the defence from a haymaker as i had never seen it shown and in all other vt i had seen until that point it was vt 101.

he showed me his interpretation

there was NO tan-da etc. it was just strike. the strike was a kinda tok sau i gues. causing an uproot and leaving no power in the haymaker. and it works.

same thing with angling. whilst angling you should always be in control of their bridges, even if this means without touching them.

does that make sense?

LoneTiger108

07-19-2010, 04:58 AM

coming from the flag waving, ring of death merchant :rolleyes: your deluded...;)

Ah! A classic coming from the eldest frog in the deepest well ;):p

k gledhill

07-19-2010, 05:59 AM

Ah! A classic coming from the eldest frog in the deepest well ;):p

oh well...at least Im trying to get out and see more than the small circle of sky above me...maybe I will see more than i do right now...maybe...so i keep trying.

LoneTiger108

07-20-2010, 04:54 AM

oh well...at least Im trying to get out and see more than the small circle of sky above me...maybe I will see more than i do right now...maybe...so i keep trying.

Is this the directors cut response? It was shorter yesterday. :rolleyes:

Seriously, what do you know about my social circles? I am very happy with the amount of skilled martial artists I have met, outside of my own well. Obviously, I admit, when I was training with Sifu I was not so sociable, but since 2003 I have managed to get out much much more than I thought I would!

Looking at your recent responses in threads it looks like you need to keep trying harder yourself, as you can't even be civilized to a fellow WSL practitioner. :eek: Believe me, your own house is more important than all the other houses in the world. ;)

Phil Redmond

07-20-2010, 07:07 PM

. . . . Kwan sao is a low bong done on the dummy for ballistic displacement, . . . .
Kwan sao can also use an upper gate bong. Kwan sao (upper), and daaih kwan sao (lower)

Liddel

07-20-2010, 07:12 PM

Hey good on you for posting something, not getting on the hate wagon, but here are my thoughts...

This video helps to explain how Wing Chun chain punching is actually done and the proper way to develop it.

This is vauge :), your developing timing more so than speed and power IMO and i think this is extremely similar to un co operative chi sau ergo Gor sau and further on...luk Sau. noting new.

All to often, people try to use pure speed and muscle and just simply blitz the non-confrontational opponent.

My major prob with people using it as a blast, is they become all arms and dont use the body. No horse no kung fu. Blasting people and staying on the offensive keeping the initative and momentum is extremely useful if done right...

However there are pitfalls which is why in VT we have the saying... "If your greedy with punches mind your empty space"

But realistically people do fight back.

For anyone serious about MA's, no need to mention :p..

Attacking done right is not a numbers game where you throw 10 attacks and hope 2 to 3 will land

I doubt thats what people are attempting even with the examples ive seen on youtube. IMO people focus to much on the chain punches primary function 'the punch attack'. They neglect the forearm bridge control on the return, the elbow protection the shoulder movement and constant angle change.

What your explaining in the vid is IMO not achieving what you set out to discuss (well at least in the title anyway)

Chuck some 6oz's and a face cage and make a new vid showing sparring.

On another note....

we learn 'dont attack the castle, attack the walls';
meaning we shouldnt go headhunting without checking the arms. in our vt we dont trade hits.

Im curious how this blends with the idea of not chasing hands... ?
i only ask because i use the idea ' dont chase hands...attack the body and the hands will follow'

Every time i attack my sparring partners head he has to react and evasion response aside, bridge or body contact is always the result.

DREW

air

08-18-2010, 12:44 PM

Thanks for sharing the video, I like the flow training.

HumbleWCGuy

08-18-2010, 09:33 PM

got bored, did a video on how to develop chain punching....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJRLK_4zy10

"Chain punching," rolling fits over the top one after the other, is trash as you pointed out. I think that there are better options if you just want to string some straight punches together. I tried teaching it for a while just because it is common in other systems and I didn't want to ignore it. However, the utter lack of power makes it unworkable outside of TCMA points tournaments.

IMO what are pointing out is that it is rolling (pedaling) as a motion that happens in the chain puching that counts and not "punching" I think that the reactionary rolling/chaining over the top (as a counter) is one realistic way to go and you seem to be expressing that in your video. Embedded in your demonstration was also the idea of just throwing combination or chains of Wing Chun techniques using the rolling motion and not so much punches. As the hands roll in that motion anything can come out.

When we get to the point to where we have overwhelmed our opponent, we need to ask ourselves if I need to stop the chaining cycle because I now chain punching which is less effective than other options that have more authority.

Yoshiyahu

08-20-2010, 08:38 AM

"Chain punching," rolling fits over the top one after the other, is trash as you pointed out. I think that there are better options if you just want to string some straight punches together. I tried teaching it for a while just because it is common in other systems and I didn't want to ignore it. However, the utter lack of power makes it unworkable outside of TCMA points tournaments.

IMO what are pointing out is that it is rolling (pedaling) as a motion that happens in the chain puching that counts and not "punching" I think that the reactionary rolling/chaining over the top (as a counter) is one realistic way to go and you seem to be expressing that in your video. Embedded in your demonstration was also the idea of just throwing combination or chains of Wing Chun techniques using the rolling motion and not so much punches. As the hands roll in that motion anything can come out.

When we get to the point to where we have overwhelmed our opponent, we need to ask ourselves if I need to stop the chaining cycle because I now chain punching which is less effective than other options that have more authority.

Is there a way to make chain punching more powerful?

what other punches do you use that generate more power?

sanjuro_ronin

08-20-2010, 08:50 AM

Is there a way to make chain punching more powerful?

what other punches do you use that generate more power?

Sure:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66qDnPAYSi4&feature=search

Before you dismiss as "just a movie" realize what I am trying to show you:
Context and Intent.

HumbleWCGuy

08-20-2010, 09:51 AM

Is there a way to make chain punching more powerful?

what other punches do you use that generate more power?

In my system of Wing Chun we really don't use the "chain punch," we use what we call push hands which is a 1-2-1 strike or lead straight, rear straight, lead straight. It is more powerful because it doesn't roll over the top and allows the hip to add power. The hands clear to the sides rather than roll. As I said the "chain punch" can come up for us as when we are just rolling over the top but it isn't really a part of the system. JKDers like the straight blast which is a different animal all together from the chain punch (albeit based on the chain punch).

YungChun

08-29-2010, 02:54 AM

There's no "chain punch".. There is a punch, or multiple punches... There is a flow a mechanic, a way to generate power and initiate contact.

The punch itself is at the core of Wing Chun.

But in the context used it's like Chain Punching is a "thing to do" or how you fight..

This mentality is what results in a robotic and fixated expression that tends not to adapt, listen or change..

t_niehoff

08-29-2010, 05:22 AM

In my system of Wing Chun

In imaginary WCK, you can do anything you like. Isn't that wonderful?

we really don't use the "chain punch," we use what we call push hands which is a 1-2-1 strike or lead straight, rear straight, lead straight. It is more powerful because it doesn't roll over the top and allows the hip to add power.

And that's not WCK. Does your forms have that movement, do the classical WCK drills have that movement? No.

It's because you don't know what you are doing that you can't use WCK movement like the lien wan choi (which includes bridge suppression).

The hands clear to the sides rather than roll. As I said the "chain punch" can come up for us as when we are just rolling over the top but it isn't really a part of the system. JKDers like the straight blast which is a different animal all together from the chain punch (albeit based on the chain punch).

I love how people don't use WCK movement but call what they do WCK.

HumbleWCGuy

08-29-2010, 07:45 AM

In imaginary WCK, you can do anything you like. Isn't that wonderful?

And that's not WCK. Does your forms have that movement, do the classical WCK drills have that movement? No.

It's because you don't know what you are doing that you can't use WCK movement like the lien wan choi (which includes bridge suppression).

I love how people don't use WCK movement but call what they do WCK.

Thanks for adding the Larper perspective. What's funny tough, I saw one of Alan's guys use a lead hammer fist-rear hook combination that Alan claimed was "straight out of CSL playbook." Should I then conclude that Robert's WC is fantasy and made up (and by extension your WC) because he doesn't do it in a way that you have envisioned to be standard?

I have said on several occasions, that my WC is not Ip Man WC. My version of WC has been modified by a family over several generations to suite them and that is what I know. To be honest, with our low opinion of WC, I consider it high praise that you don't consider what I do WC.

k gledhill

08-29-2010, 08:38 AM

tan sao outside edge of forearm , strike.
jum sao inside edge of forearm , strike.

t_niehoff

08-30-2010, 06:07 AM

Thanks for adding the Larper perspective. What's funny tough, I saw one of Alan's guys use a lead hammer fist-rear hook combination that Alan claimed was "straight out of CSL playbook." Should I then conclude that Robert's WC is fantasy and made up (and by extension your WC) because he doesn't do it in a way that you have envisioned to be standard?

No, what you should conclude is that you don't know what is going on.

Alan and I agree for the most part about WCK and training. That's why he said on this forum that I am one of the few who know what he is talking about. He didn't say that about YOU. Because you don't. You look but you don't see or understand -- and that's because our perception is limited to our level of skill and/or experience.

I have said on several occasions, that my WC is not Ip Man WC. My version of WC has been modified by a family over several generations to suite them and that is what I know. To be honest, with our low opinion of WC, I consider it high praise that you don't consider what I do WC.

This demonstrates your low level of understanding. Yip Man WCK isn't a way of applying WCK -- none of the lineages/branches are. They are curriculum, various ways of teaching WCK. Different textbooks for the same subject matter. WCK is WCK. Riding a bike is riding a bike.

t_niehoff

08-30-2010, 06:10 AM

tan sao outside edge of forearm , strike.
jum sao inside edge of forearm , strike.

You do know that when performing a tan sao (spreading arm) can make contact with either the inside or outside of your forearm, right?

Chum/jum sao means sinking arm.

k gledhill

08-30-2010, 07:07 AM

You do know that when performing a tan sao (spreading arm) can make contact with either the inside or outside of your forearm, right?

Chum/jum sao means sinking arm.

why do you use a vertical palm in chi-sao drills from tan sao ? what part of your arm spreads as you hit with a vertical palm position ? When we do chi-sao do we hit with a palm strike directly forwards or do we spread off line then go back in and hit ? Or do we use the natural combination of the 2 forces ? economy of motion or go this way then back that way ?

A simple method to show wrong ideas is to feint an intended tan sao 'application' and see where the tan sao is relative to your jaw as a target....try it smarty pants. In fighting this is how I would prove the action, not the drilling, the drilling is to make it align for ...fighting from NO pre-contact, but attacking entry....attacking.

I think you confusing JUT sao [terence hand]

Why use a horizontal palm position ? it makes the elbows go inwards as you turn the palm...[same as dummy, tan & sidepalm, think its a 'move' :D]
JUM inwards elbow is from the fok sao position, we use the elbows in and forwards to 'strike when the hand is free' upon any given opening of a bad tan elbow in DRILLS...iow the fok sao is a punch in waiting but , and very important but, always trying to make a strike with constant cycling strike alignment force....tan strikes , jum strikes [from the fok].

So when we FIGHT I have a pair of arms equally capable of striking in unison while attacking either flank or opponents arm angles with either arm leading.

Becasue each arm has now developed a natural forearm/elbow [low] barrier I no longer have to use 2 hands to fight the one I am engaging on the lead attacking action.

jut is a natural action of the chain punch dropping the lead 'spent' punch on contact or not ALONG the attack line ...[not lop =grab 'n' turn]

yeah the center chain punch has jut sao incorporated in every one as it drops down and
SINKS ;) making a path for the wu sao to strike as a punch forwards..

imagine a pole being held in front of your centerline, if you want to use one arm as a counter pole, depending on the proximity of each pole/arm iow left arm is closer to pole ? or right arm ? which would use the forearm to deflect the pole away from your center
AS YOU STRIKE FORWARDS with same arm ? tan striking arm using the outside forearm as the vertical palm is used [v palm makes elbows spread away from line] OR...
the jum strike , using the inward forearm etc ....

now stay with me ...whichever leads the following will always be the opposite, iow the following strike will always compliment the other by recreating a forearm barrier, whether you strike or are intercepted along your striking attack line.

Meaning you can achieve the basic goals of attacking with every action, relentlessly along the centerline, chasing the opponents movements, not his hands.

I know you wont know the coaching methods because I dont think your information has gotten this one, if you did, you would never resort to VT's plan B ...using 2 hands.

:D your like a pig wallowing in its own c r a p....but ! pigs are smart so there is hope for you yet.

develop the ability to attack mindlessly with little thought or become a feeling dirty clincher ?

Knifefighter

08-30-2010, 07:07 AM

k gledhill

08-30-2010, 07:27 AM

If someone grabs both your arms in an over under, double under, or double over, you won't be doing much hitting. You, probably will be landing on your a$$ though.

he means hands grabbing wrists...a common event when I've had fights and used a extended lead. ie man sao ....Guys naturally go for it to stop getting hit...sometimes they grab both and try to control , in this event you can use their movement to control their balance...by-product of drilling in contact.
Bil gee has the elbow lifting and sinking to fight grabbed wrists , if the guy doesnt let go of the wrist he is in a wrist submission, if I choose to trap his grabbing hand on my wrist and use the elbow over his forearm he cant let go...He can, if quick, use a lop sao to counter out from the intended wrist lock..iow I pull in the direction my elbow points to counter his wrist lock on me grabbing...

But what you said is true too...

Knifefighter

08-30-2010, 07:40 AM

he means hands grabbing wrists...a common event when I've had fights and used a extended lead. ie man sao ....Guys naturally go for it to stop getting hit...sometimes they grab both and try to control , in this event you can use their movement to control their balance...by-product of drilling in contact.
Bil gee has the elbow lifting and sinking to fight grabbed wrists , if the guy doesnt let go of the wrist he is in a wrist submission, if I choose to trap his grabbing hand on my wrist and use the elbow over his forearm he cant let go...He can, if quick, use a lop sao to counter out from the intended wrist lock..iow I pull in the direction my elbow points to counter his wrist lock on me grabbing...

But what you said is true too...

People who think arm control is about grabbing wrists are the probably the easiest to control and dump on their a$$3s.

Over/unders, double overs, and double unders have nothing to do with wrist grabbing.

k gledhill

08-30-2010, 08:12 AM

People who think arm control is about grabbing wrists are the probably the easiest to control and dump on their a$$3s.

Over/unders, double overs, and double unders have nothing to do with wrist grabbing.

thats what I meant ...so we agree. Yes I have dumped many 'wrist grabbers' on their asses as they slide 6 ft away from me on their arses...like a bowling ball going down the alley .; )

Knifefighter

08-30-2010, 08:18 AM

thats what I meant ...so we agree. Yes I have dumped many 'wrist grabbers' on their asses as they slide 6 ft away from me on their arses...like a bowling ball going down the alley .; )

No, we don't agree. I'm sure in your fantasy world, people who fight grab your wrists all the time. The real world usually doesn't work like that.

sanjuro_ronin

08-30-2010, 08:32 AM

No, we don't agree. I'm sure in your fantasy world, people who fight grab your wrists all the time. The real world usually doesn't work like that.

Someone grabbed my wrist when I was in Thailand one time, of course they were aiming to grab something else, they, or she or it or whatever that was !
*shudders*

t_niehoff

08-30-2010, 08:36 AM

Someone grabbed my wrist when I was in Thailand one time, of course they were aiming to grab something else, they, or she or it or whatever that was !
*shudders*

ROFLOL! Hinting your wrist could be mistaken for your what? ;)

It's like the other night when my sparring partner accidentally kneed me in the groin. I told him, "That's not my thigh . . . I know that it is easy to confuse it with my leg and all . . . ." :)

sanjuro_ronin

08-30-2010, 08:42 AM

ROFLOL! Hinting your wrist could be mistaken for your what? ;)

It's like the other night when my sparring partner accidentally kneed me in the groin. I told him, "That's not my thigh . . . I know that it is easy to confuse it with my leg and all . . . ." :)

"sparring partner"..sure...ok...;)

Xiao3 Meng4

08-30-2010, 08:42 AM

why do you use a vertical palm in chi-sao drills from tan sao ?
...
Why use a horizontal palm position ?

Why ask such questions?

...making a path for the wu sao to strike as a punch forwards..

Where's your Man Sao then, and what's it doing in the meantime? ;)

sanjuro_ronin

08-30-2010, 08:44 AM

People. people...anything you LINK together is a chain.

SAAMAG

08-30-2010, 09:28 AM

This thread is like the little train that could....chuggalugga chuggalugga chooooo-choooooo.

m1k3

08-30-2010, 09:37 AM

This thread is like the little train that could....chuggalugga chuggalugga chooooo-choooooo.

Maybe its more like the little train that shouldn't? In a dark room by itself working on it's sticky hands training. Choo choo indeed.:eek:

Frost

08-30-2010, 10:38 AM

No, we don't agree. I'm sure in your fantasy world, people who fight grab your wrists all the time. The real world usually doesn't work like that.

outside of pauls "adventures" in thailand :) has anyone else actually had their wrists grabbed in a fight? i used to drill it in TCMA all the time but my expereince is with knifefighter on this one, guys getting hit either turtle up or try to grab the body and smother you, i have never had my wrist grabbed, Ive had guys try to smother the stricks and grab the body, and this funnily enough was not something covered that much in TMCA classes at least not effectivelly

bennyvt

08-30-2010, 02:16 PM

Ive had some one grab my arm and pull lme around to punch me. Worked pretty well. But once I hit him he let go. The only time I have anyone grab my wrist is on the ground while rolling.

HumbleWCGuy

08-30-2010, 02:52 PM

No, what you should conclude is that you don't know what is going on.

Alan and I agree for the most part about WCK and training. That's why he said on this forum that I am one of the few who know what he is talking about. He didn't say that about YOU. Because you don't. You look but you don't see or understand -- and that's because our perception is limited to our level of skill and/or experience.

Sounds like a bunch of double talk because you never addressed my point. If I use fantasy made-up WC because of a "non-standard" strike then we must also conclude that you practice fantasy made-up wing chun.

It's hard to accept Alan's endorsement of you in light of that fact that you contradict most of what he says. Moreover, you are completely unwilling to address the fact that his guys clearly "WC kickbox" something that you claim isn't possible. You tried to claim that it was due to cross training yet Alan claims to use only CSL for Upright.

This demonstrates your low level of understanding. Yip Man WCK isn't a way of applying WCK -- none of the lineages/branches are. They are curriculum, various ways of teaching WCK. Different textbooks for the same subject matter. WCK is WCK. Riding a bike is riding a bike.
This is dumb on so many levels that I don't even really want to bother except to say that it is clear that you have larped it up your whole life.

k gledhill

08-30-2010, 05:32 PM

No, we don't agree. I'm sure in your fantasy world, people who fight grab your wrists all the time. The real world usually doesn't work like that.

Oh sorry, then we dont agree, but who cares ?;)

Wayfaring

08-30-2010, 08:29 PM

People. people...anything you LINK together is a chain.

Testing Paul's theory.....

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/9238/keyraaugustinabutt6wt.jpg

+

http://www.drunkstunts.com/babes/keyra_agustina_perfect_ass/images/keyra_agustina_10_004.jpg

=

chain.

k gledhill

08-30-2010, 11:12 PM

Why ask such questions?

Where's your Man Sao then, and what's it doing in the meantime? ;)

??????????????????

goju

08-31-2010, 03:01 AM

outside of pauls "adventures" in thailand :) has anyone else actually had their wrists grabbed in a fight? i used to drill it in TCMA all the time but my expereince is with knifefighter on this one, guys getting hit either turtle up or try to grab the body and smother you, i have never had my wrist grabbed, Ive had guys try to smother the stricks and grab the body, and this funnily enough was not something covered that much in TMCA classes at least not effectivelly

not in stand up but in grappling ive found that my wrist or forearm was grabbed often and some of the wrist circling techniques youll see in southern kung fu and okinawan sticky hand excercises allowed me to stop it quickly

Frost

08-31-2010, 05:04 AM

not in stand up but in grappling ive found that my wrist or forearm was grabbed often and some of the wrist circling techniques youll see in southern kung fu and okinawan sticky hand excercises allowed me to stop it quickly

thats my expereince to and why i asked you see it in grappling usually as a way to gain access to the body or controlling one arm as you under hook the other, but not as an end in itself and as you say not in stand up

k gledhill

08-31-2010, 05:53 AM

I worked security, door work at bars clubs in central London and suburbs for 10 years, many guys will grab the wrists...its easy to deal with... my fantasy world is in London :D
The stabbings and glassings are all a fantasy too, I must have been dreaming...;)

YungChun

09-07-2010, 02:27 AM

outside of pauls "adventures" in thailand :) has anyone else actually had their wrists grabbed in a fight? i used to drill it in TCMA all the time but my expereince is with knifefighter on this one, guys getting hit either turtle up or try to grab the body and smother you, i have never had my wrist grabbed, Ive had guys try to smother the stricks and grab the body, and this funnily enough was not something covered that much in TMCA classes at least not effectivelly

Attacks involving wrist grabs are commonplace.. Perhaps not among pro-fighters of caliber X, or among so and so's <elite> training partners.. However it is simply a HAOV (Habitual Acts of <human> Violence {what TMAs are often better at dealing with}).. Meaning--it happens and happens quite often, whatever the particular conditions or reasons.

Of course, Chun offers all sorts of ways to have fun with this..

k gledhill

09-07-2010, 07:03 AM

just thinking about a leading grab brings back a flood of fight memories...some guys do a double wrist 'in your face' grab...others the duck down high single grab ...the charging grab ..etc...
clothes grabbing is another, I would let guys tear jackets off me so they would lose their balance falling back as I let them have the item of clothing hah ! like letting go of a rope suddenly...following in with a front kick or attack.
memories !
you dress for battle. rubber soles , clip on ties. unzipped jackets...loose trousers....

Frost

09-07-2010, 01:06 PM

Attacks involving wrist grabs are commonplace.. Perhaps not among pro-fighters of caliber X, or among so and so's <elite> training partners.. However it is simply a HAOV (Habitual Acts of <human> Violence {what TMAs are often better at dealing with}).. Meaning--it happens and happens quite often, whatever the particular conditions or reasons.

Of course, Chun offers all sorts of ways to have fun with this..

Who said anything about pro fighters and so and so elite training partners....its not my fault all you get to play with is yourself and some of us get to play with real fighters :)
people grab clothes and punch you sure, but outside the kwoon not many grab the grab the wrist, why would they, no real control and you are tieing up your hand

YungChun

09-07-2010, 08:58 PM

Who said anything about pro fighters and so and so elite training partners....its not my fault all you get to play with is yourself and some of us get to play with real fighters :)

Many folks here have said that.. I didn't say you did however given your elitist tone above I am surprised you didn't, oh wait you just did.. So take some deep breaths before going on the attack tough guy. The world is bigger than your dojo and not everyone who attacks folks is an expert schooled by "expert level" folks like you.:rolleyes:

people grab clothes and punch you sure, but outside the kwoon not many grab the grab the wrist, why would they, no real control and you are tieing up your hand

I and others have seen along with tons of documented evidence which shows that this is an HAOV..and as related by Kevin quite accurately.. "Outside the kwoon" is exactly where HAOVs take place..not technically perfect attacks by pro fighters but real human acts of violence...duh.. I am not going to go through a series of illustrations of why it is done and draw you a picture, it simply is done--humans grab because they can--same reason dogs bite.... I fail to see the problem with comprehending such a simple fact..