Ultimate Grappling thread 2010

[SevenStar]

The convo on recent threads reminded me of this thread from several years ago:

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-18085.html

maybe it's time to circle back to this, as we seem to have a lot of ppl here with some sort of grappling knowledge now.

[bawang]

underhook: golden rooster
underhook and knee: golden rooster stand on one leg
underhook and reap: bull crushes back
single leg takedown: plant tree
double: bawang lifts big pot
fireman carry: reverse plant tree
spinning pigeon: fireman carry then spin
fish hook: eagle catch rabbit
hand choke: rusty knife kill duck
double hand choke: two knifes kill duck
bear hug: tiger hug
sweep: bird spread wings
turning throw: step over tiger
collar clinch: fence in
collar clinch with one hand: fence in with one hand

[SevenStar]

what styles are those from? I compare golden rooster to either hiza guruma or ko uchi gari in judo.


hiza guruma:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Doxd3cqrsn0


ko uchi gari:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SuAzlYzpJk


I see "shoot the bow" as being the fireman's carry

[bawang]

hay mang, there from longfist. taizumen and taijiquan

grabbing the clothes is mostly luohanquan. the video u showed is luohan watcing battle. if u grab sleeve and sweep its luohan listen to sutra. but some longfist do call it golden rooster its confusing. i think tanglang grabs the sleeve and calls it golden rooster. sry i didnt learn judo i dont know what its called in japanese.
most areas people took off their shirt to wreslte so they dont have cloth grabs. north has mongol jacket so they grab

if u mean open the bow ya thats firemans carry but it uses momentum more. reverse plant you use less momentum and lift straight up. theyre pretty similar tho

[SevenStar]

turning throw? this one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elcFMUVN6Gc

[bawang]

this one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QO-oGMZ96_o

the guy thrown looks like hes trying to ride a tiger lol

[SevenStar]

lol, gotcha.

harai goshi:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GILKFyzcg5k

[YouKnowWho]

Chinese throwing art has over 800 different throws and has over 60 different categories. By using just one thread to talk about the throwing may be difficult.

Why CMA has so many throws? Let me use "foot sweep" as an example here. There are over 30 different "foot sweeps" in CMA. A "foot sweep" can be used in the following ways:

1. Your left hand control your opponent's right arm, your right hand control your opponent's "behind neck", your right foot sweep your opponent's left leg.
2. Your left hand control your opponent's right arm, your right hand control your opponent's "right shoulder (under hook)", your right foot sweep your opponent's left leg.
3. Your left hand control your opponent's right arm, your right hand control your opponent's "center belt", your right foot sweep your opponent's left leg.
4. Your left hand control your opponent's right arm, your right arm has "reverse head lock (guillotine)" on your opponent's head, your right foot sweep your opponent's left leg.

The "foot sweep" 1, 2, 3, and 4 all use the same "minor hand" hold (your left hand control your opponent's right arm) and same foot sweep (your right foot sweep your opponent's left leg). The only difference is your "major hand" hold that control different part of your opponent's body. Your "major hand" either use "pull" in 1, "push" in 2, "lift" in 3, or "rotate" in 4. All 4 throws will need different "set up" and different "major hand" force (pull, push, lift, and rotate). You may call all these 4 foot sweeps as 1 foot sweep but it will be difficult to train the detail IMO.

[SevenStar]

Chinese throwing art has over 800 throws and has over 60 different categories. By using just one thread to talk about the throwing may be difficult.

Why CMA has so many throws? Let me use "foot sweep" as an example here. There are over 30 different "foot sweeps" in CMA. A "foot sweep" can be used in the following ways:

1. Your left hand control your opponent's right arm, your right hand control your opponent's "behind neck", your right foot sweep your opponent's left leg.
2. Your left hand control your opponent's right arm, your right hand control your opponent's "right shoulder (under hook)", your right foot sweep your opponent's left leg.
3. Your left hand control your opponent's right arm, your right hand control your opponent's "center belt", your right foot sweep your opponent's left leg.
4. Your left hand control your opponent's right arm, your right arm has "reverse head lock (guillotine)" on your opponent's head, your right foot sweep your opponent's left leg.

The "foot sweep" 1, 2, 3, and 4 all use the same "minor hand" hold (your left hand control your opponent's right arm) and same foot sweep (your right foot sweep your opponent's left leg). The only difference is your "major hand" hold that control different part of your opponent's body. Your "major hand" either use "pull" in 1, "push" in 2, "lift" in 3, or "rotate" in 4. All 4 throws will need different "set up" and different "major hand" force (pull, push, lift, and rotate). You may call all these 4 foot sweeps as 1 foot sweep but it will be difficult to train the detail IMO.


that's no different from judo. they are just accepted as different ways to execute the same technique.

ippon seoinage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gospAK0QOHA

ippon seionage makikomi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0r0e6cZR6ho

seionage with a knee block
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDxbUuLB8Uc&feature=PlayList&p=B49026B0E5CD0A56&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=3

drop seionage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYb5jlFoKEM

morote seionage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Um6KPDRgrg&feature=related

[bawang]

a lot of wrestling in kung fu is misinterpreted as punching and kicking in really awkward postures

[lkfmdc]

The "core" of an effective grappling (standing throwing / takedown I mean) curriculum would have

singe leg
double leg
innner hooking
chopping (O Soto Gari / outer reaping)
body lock (the "sag")
uchi mata / vertical lifting / ****zer
foot sweep
Russian "chair throw"

there are many variations on these of course, but these are the ones that consistently work and fill the necessary spaces / blanks

[Dragonzbane76]

bet they don't have this :)

the beauty of centerline domination.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJu4haeubRo

I like this one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RF4Z5-9fMdc

[Dragonzbane76]

some more wrestling

driver headlock to cement mixer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuhhVyGxhj4&feature=related
a little more complicated one

I'm still a fan of the ankle picks and grapevine, easy to do and effective.

[YouKnowWho]

ippon seoinage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gospAK0QOHA

One good trainaing method for "shoulder throw" is to hold on the front center belt. If you can drop low enough to throw your opponent that way, you will have a very solid throw.

Anothe way is to grab your opponent's wrist, guide his arm, and put his hand on your chest. You use the other hand to straight his arm, and lift his elbow joing up. This will put pressure on his elbow joint and force him to raise on his toe. This will give you a chance to enter for your "shoulder throw".

[SevenStar]

do you have any pics of this?

[YouKnowWho]

I'm in California and I don't have a printer/scanner with my computer yet. It's just to use "elbow lock" to set up a "shoulder throw". It's easier to get under your opponent when he is raising up.

[David Jamieson]

FTW!!!
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_MhRRZn0fCOQ/SLXa65DJ_wI/AAAAAAAAAwA/qleEg4_MsUk/s400/oympics+finger+up+the+ass.jpg

[Dragonzbane76]

http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2009/4/8/633748194124391860-Surprise.jpg

[SevenStar]

One good trainaing method for "shoulder throw" is to hold on the front center belt. If you can drop low enough to throw your opponent that way, you will have a very solid throw.


I meant this one.

[YouKnowWho]

That's just an old training method that force you to drop lower than you normally needed. You use your right hand to hold on the front center belt, and your left hand to hold on the "lower" lapel (or both hands on the front center belt). It's a training and not a true application.

[SevenStar]

any clips of the sc double leg?

[thelegend731]

I'm trying to get into grappling itself. How effective is chinese grappling?

I don't want to start a flame war or anything but I'm wondering if anyone has practiced chinese grappling as well as another form of grappling and what they thought of it in comparison?

[Dragonzbane76]

i did some shuai jiao

a lot like judo, but a sport driven art today as judo is.

if you are looking for a totally TCMA grappling then i'm sorry to say there is none.

[YouKnowWho]

i did some shuai jiao

a lot like judo, but a sport driven art today as judo is.

if you are looking for a totally TCMA grappling then i'm sorry to say there is none.
You may have to define "total" and "grappling" first. There are many reasons that CMA, boxing, MT, Karate, TKD, Hipkido, Aikido, ... that are not involved with "ground game".

[Frost]

I'm trying to get into grappling itself. How effective is chinese grappling?

I don't want to start a flame war or anything but I'm wondering if anyone has practiced chinese grappling as well as another form of grappling and what they thought of it in comparison?

depends on how you define grappling and what you want out of it?

are you just looking for standing grappling with throws, or ground work as well?

do you want strikes involved or not?

[Dragonzbane76]

You may have to define "total" and "grappling" first. There are many reasons that CMA, boxing, MT, Karate, TKD, Hipkido, Aikido, ... that are not involved with "ground game".

TCMA does not have a grappling strategy. It does not have positioning, control, escapes, submits, etc. It might have some small manipulation controls (chin na) but overall it is not designed for grappling. And I think this conversation has been beat from a dead horse many times. your correct those arts mentioned above don't have what I described either but the individual asked for "chinese"

[SevenStar]

TCMA does not have a grappling strategy. It does not have positioning, control, escapes, submits, etc. It might have some small manipulation controls (chin na) but overall it is not designed for grappling. And I think this conversation has been beat from a dead horse many times. your correct those arts mentioned above don't have what I described either but the individual asked for "chinese"

why wouldn't you call sc traditional? as old as it is, I'd say it was quite traditional, despite the big sportive aspect.

[bawang]

kung fu dont fight on the ground since the begining of time because spectators dont like watching it. its boring as hell. i dont understand if the crowd boos when you go to the ground, why keep going to the ground.
i tink we shoulnt be worrying about ground fighting when most kung fu ppls cant kick and punch properly

[Frost]

i tink we shoulnt be worrying about ground fighting when most kung fu ppls cant kick and punch properly

lol classic :)

[Dragonzbane76]

why wouldn't you call sc traditional? as old as it is, I'd say it was quite traditional, despite the big sportive aspect.

I guess you could call it traditional... but if we were going back that far in time...to the roots (Mongolian wrestling) really wouldn't be Chinese then would it? :p

[wiz cool c]

shuai jiao has everything you need for stand up throws and take downs, but no ground game, but that is changing as more players are cross training these days

[SevenStar]

I was looking at some of your vids the other day.

[wiz cool c]

cool, i will try to get some more up soon, now that found a way to get on youtube again

[YouKnowWho]

I guess you could call it traditional... but if we were going back that far in time...to the roots (Mongolian wrestling) really wouldn't be Chinese then would it? :p
It's like the 查, 花, 洪, 弹, 袍 (Cha, Hua, Hong, Tan, Pao) are the 5 branches of the Longfist system. The Chinese SC has many branches. The beijing, Tinjin, Baoding, Shanxi, Mongolian, and Yi minority. The Mongolian SC is part of the SC system and not the root of SC.

By the way, Mongolian is one of the Chinese minority races and considered as Chinese.

[MightyB]

I'm a Judoka who's recently started BJJ, but- I've fallen in love with Sambo techniques ever since I pulled off my first successful rolling kneebar.

Anyway- check out some of these Sambo Techniques: http://www.youtube.com/user/SJJASambo#p/a/u/2/aKfrot6P6wo

[Dragonzbane76]

By the way, Mongolian is one of the Chinese minority races and considered as Chinese.

hum... good to know.

Not real familar with the history. From what I read I took it that most of it originated in mongolia. Mongolian wrestling?

[YouKnowWho]

hum... good to know.

Not real familar with the history. From what I read I took it that most of it originated in mongolia. Mongolian wrestling?

This is the Yi minority group SC (no gi) - in Stone Forest of the Yunnan province which is over 1000 miles south of Mongolia.

http://johnswang.com/Yee_SC.wmv

and here is the Mongolian SC (no leg hold).

http://johnswang.com/Mongolian_SC_1.wmv

and here is the Baoding SC (more grip fight).

http://johnswang.com/sc2.wmv

There are some difference in these 3 styles (dress, strategy, favor moves, ...).

[Dragonzbane76]

Very nice!

appreciate your posting those.

first video: very very similar to western wrestling with take downs and shots.
Second: relied a lot of sweeps. Had some big boys in there as well.
third: reminded me of the SJ tournament I did, had the same uniforms and a lot of the same patterns, reminded me of judo at least the clinch.

again thanks
:)

[Frost]

Very nice!

appreciate your posting those.

first video: very very similar to western wrestling with take downs and shots.
Second: relied a lot of sweeps. Had some big boys in there as well.
third: reminded me of the SJ tournament I did, had the same uniforms and a lot of the same patterns, reminded me of judo at least the clinch.

again thanks
:)

I second that thanks for the clips, its amazing how similar grappling looks when it is for real.

And shows how wrong people are when they talk about this secret grappling or locking move, the fact is when your opponent is actually resisting it all looks the same, and the only difference comes down to the rule set you are taking part in

[YouKnowWho]

any clips of the sc double leg?

http://johnswang.com/double_legs.wmv

[lkfmdc]

http://johnswang.com/double_legs.wmv

Wow, the old David Lin texas rangers tape, I have that somewhere on VHS,,, you know TAPE :p

That version we acutally use a lot, in wrestling they call it a "Japanese double leg" because there is version like that in judo

[YouKnowWho]

What's the difference between "Japanese double legs" and "wrestling double legs" or "BJJ double legs"?

[lkfmdc]

What's the difference between "Japanese double legs" and "wrestling double legs" or "BJJ double legs"?

BJJ takedowns are generally sloppy LOL

but, really, traditional wrestling double leg, head placement is different

[Frost]

BJJ takedowns are generally sloppy LOL

but, really, traditional wrestling double leg, head placement is different

ive been taught that version when taking down against the cage, pin wirh the head and rip the legs out, but never really done it away from the cage wall