Extreme Push Hands Championship

[jjustinmeehan]

First ever Extreme Push Hands event held this past Sat. in St Petersberg, Fla. Similar to Moving Push Hands, but allowing sweeps and throws. This event was sponsored by ICMAC Circuit and was the first of its kind in the US. Although action was hot and heavy, injuries were minimal. The event was called Extreme Push Hands, not Extreme Tai Chi Push Hands for good reasons and was very similar to Chen Village Push Hand competitions. Competitors came from as far away as New York and St. Louis. The competition was round robin, not single elimination, so every competitor got the opportunity to compete with every competitor. John Meehan (22) won the event which included Heavyweight and SuperHeavyweight (over 300 lbs.). He won every match and then went on to accept challanges from other push hand light heavyweight competitors including past champions. John Meehan is the son of Sifu J. Justin Meehan of St. Louis and brother of ICMAC past Orlando Push Hands Champion(2008 and 2009) Jason Meehan (18). He is a Law Student at Drake University and practices the HunYuan Taiji/Qigong. Depending on his law school schedule he hopes to compete at other National ICMAC Extreme Push Hand events in the upcomming year.

[woliveri]

First ever Extreme Push Hands event held this past Sat. in St Petersberg, Fla. Similar to Moving Push Hands, but allowing sweeps and throws. This event was sponsored by ICMAC Circuit and was the first of its kind in the US. Although action was hot and heavy, injuries were minimal. The event was called Extreme Push Hands, not Extreme Tai Chi Push Hands for good reasons and was very similar to Chen Village Push Hand competitions. Competitors came from as far away as New York and St. Louis. The competition was round robin, not single elimination, so every competitor got the opportunity to compete with every competitor. John Meehan (22) won the event which included Heavyweight and SuperHeavyweight (over 300 lbs.). He won every match and then went on to accept challanges from other push hand light heavyweight competitors including past champions. John Meehan is the son of Sifu J. Justin Meehan of St. Louis and brother of ICMAC past Orlando Push Hands Champion(2008 and 2009) Jason Meehan (18). He is a Law Student at Drake University and practices the HunYuan Taiji/Qigong. Depending on his law school schedule he hopes to compete at other National ICMAC Extreme Push Hand events in the upcomming year.

It's good the EPH got some action because the rest of the event (with the exception of some of the Xingyi) totally sucked. We left early (at the lunch break) out of sheer boredom. It gives the feeling that Chinese Martial arts are on the decline.

[MartialDev]

Video or it didn't happen. ;)

[Dragonzbane76]

they have a tournament for this? lolz:eek:

[donjitsu2]

Video or it didn't happen. ;)

I second this!

I've never heard of Extreme Push Hands. Off to Google it (I'm going to be ****ed if its anything like Extreme forms competitions)

[jjustinmeehan]

Extreme Push Hands Highlight Video:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=U76sVEStkFo
First National Extreme Push Hands Competition held July 2010 winner, law student and HunYuan Taiji practitioner John Meehan, 22 year old son of Sifu Justin Meehan. Notice that the competition was called Extreme Push Hands, not Taiji Push Hands. The competition was very physical, but no more than what is seen in Push Hands competitions in Chen Village, China or many other Chinese and Taiwanese Push Hands tournaments.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Nice work.
So extreme push hands is a nice name for Sumo for non-fat people :D

Very good stuff.

[SanHeChuan]

extreme push hands = Shuai Jiao :confused:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Lk1mzN8fJA

...without the vest/hand-holds

[Frost]

How do people fall for this rubbish........it was like some one looked at a Sumo match and thought, hey that looks fun how can I f*ck that up and make it really impractical and useless

[Mo Ling]

Sumo is so practical and useful?

[taai gihk yahn]

Extreme Push Hands Highlight Video:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=U76sVEStkFo
First National Extreme Push Hands Competition held July 2010 winner, law student and HunYuan Taiji practitioner John Meehan, 22 year old son of Sifu Justin Meehan. Notice that the competition was called Extreme Push Hands, not Taiji Push Hands. The competition was very physical, but no more than what is seen in Push Hands competitions in Chen Village, China or many other Chinese and Taiwanese Push Hands tournaments.
nice; but not any different from what my friend Sifu Mike Pekor has been doing at his school on LI for years:
http://www.taichili.com/training_for_tournament_competit.htm


Sumo is so practical and useful?
LOL, have u ever watched any? those guys beat the crap out of each other, they move fast, they are alowed to strike w/open hands, and they actualy do pull off some excellent technique; a sumo guy would be a challenge for just about anyone, IMPO

[taai gihk yahn]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Lk1mzN8fJA


very nice reversal technique!

[YouKnowWho]

extreme push hands = Shuai Jiao :confused:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Lk1mzN8fJA

...without the vest/hand-holds

Just realize the referee in the above SC clip was one of my students. My teacher used to call him 小白人(Xiao Bai Ren) - little white man.

I'm glad to see that Taiji is moving toward the right direction. Since SC has envolved into CC (Combat SC - Sanda/Sanshou),

http://johnswang.com/Sanshou_6.wmv

for push hands to be evolved into extreme push hands may not be enough. Taiji still needs further evolution.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sumo is so practical and useful?

Having a 400 lbs sumotori smash his palm into you and send you flying into next week is very practical:D
They can also pull of some very nice throws and sweeps.
They learn how to use their weight to their best advantage.

[SanHeChuan]

Chen Village Push Hands Competition 1998 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LrLPA1akdk)

[Scott R. Brown]

That isn't push hands, it is pushing to a takedown!:rolleyes:

How is that any different than what all boys do grow up doing? I was doing pushing to a takedown when I was 8 years old. I am NOT impressed!:(

Its almost judo!

[Syn7]

is competing in push hands not contrary to Taoist beliefs??? Taosim is non competetive in nature, so it always seemed weird to me to see these comps... even the very conservative ones... but these newschool more liberal extreme push hands and all that, does this not move away from the central beliefs surrounding the art in the first place??? why not just be a judoka, no shame in that...

sorry if i offend, im not trying to be a **** or start arguments. its just that my understanding of taoism tells me that this runs against the grain...

[bawang]

i have personally spoken to the jade emperor last november and he told me its ok to compete. i also talked to the celestial masters and theyre cool wit it also. so i dont see a problem. i think ur overreacting, or maybe intimidated by their manliness

[Scott R. Brown]

is competing in push hands not contrary to Taoist beliefs??? Taosim is non competetive in nature, so it always seemed weird to me to see these comps... even the very conservative ones... but these newschool more liberal extreme push hands and all that, does this not move away from the central beliefs surrounding the art in the first place??? why not just be a judoka, no shame in that...

sorry if i offend, im not trying to be a **** or start arguments. its just that my understanding of taoism tells me that this runs against the grain...

I think you have a misunderstanding of Tao. Although Taoism is a philosophy with many different branches from sober thinking to outright nuttiness, not all of them actually follow or have a comprehensive understanding of the principles of Tao.

Competitiveness is clearly illustrated within the symbol Yin-Yang, but more important than that, it is a natural process of nature that may be directly observed by anyone. Tao IS the natural process. It is not something imposed from above like a God imposing his will onto creation. If one wants to understand Tao all one need do is observe it directly.

Nowhere in nature is competitiveness absent. Every animal/organism competes for its survival and for the opportunity to reproduce. Competitiveness, then, is a natural process of Tao; one that should be embraced and understood within its proper context.

The principles I think you may be referring too are the ones that advise avoiding direct conflict when it is not expedient or of clear benefit to do so. In other words, don’t stand in front of a rushing 300# man thinking you can stop him from running into a busy street. But you could certainly stand in front of your 2 year old child in order to stop him from running into a busy street. One will run you over, the other will not

The relationship between you and the other person in both instances is a competitive one. In each case the other person has an intention to perform an action and you have a contrary intention to stop them. These two intentions are a conflict, Yin and Yang. You may attempt to stop the running man by trying to convince him of the error of his actions, but this too is a competition, the only difference is discussion is competitiveness within the arena of reason rather than physical action.

The principle of avoiding “foolish/unproductive” competition is rooted within the principle of “conservation of energy”. One of the foundational principles of Taoism is to avoid wasting energy/resources. If you are going to get plowed down when attempting to stop the #300 man by stepping in front of him, you are wasting your energy in the attempt.

One of the purposes of Tai Chi is to train yourself to succeed in physical conflict by using the least amount of energy necessary in order to accomplish your goal of defending yourself and/or others. In order to obtain the proper experience, one must, of necessity, put oneself into circumstances that allow you to be challenged. Formal competitions are one method of accomplishing this. However inadequate these events are in actually simulating real life circumstances they are still intended to help practitioners develop their skills. And they are fun, and there is nothing wrong with fun. :)


i have personally spoken to the jade emperor last november and he told me its ok to compete. i also talked to the celestial masters and theyre cool wit it also. so i dont see a problem. i think ur overreacting, or maybe intimidated by their manliness

Who wouldn't be intimidated by the stench of manliness emanating from you......or is it that smell of garlic?:eek::p

[YouKnowWho]

my understanding of taoism tells me that this runs against the grain...
We may not have intention to hurt a tiger, but that tiger will have intention to eat us. No matter how much that we love health, performance, Qi, and spiritual development, we had better to have the ability to take care any challenge fight even when we are 80 years old. The day that we started our CMA training, the day that our life were leaded into certain direction no matter we like it or not.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Dao: Adapt or Die.

[Dragonzbane76]

Looked similar to shuai Jiao, but subtle differences.

[Frost]

That isn't push hands, it is pushing to a takedown!:rolleyes:

How is that any different than what all boys do grow up doing? I was doing pushing to a takedown when I was 8 years old. I am NOT impressed!:(

Its almost judo!

you say that like its a bad thing :confused:

so the original version of taichi was a full on grappling art, now that really makes sense, it would also make sense that people training a watered down version would be upset upon learning theres nothing special or secret about it

[Scott Larson]

I hope to see more of these types of push hands rules. It is very hard for me to find good competitions in my area.

[taai gihk yahn]

is competing in push hands not contrary to Taoist beliefs??? Taosim is non competetive in nature, so it always seemed weird to me to see these comps... even the very conservative ones... but these newschool more liberal extreme push hands and all that, does this not move away from the central beliefs surrounding the art in the first place??? why not just be a judoka, no shame in that...

sorry if i offend, im not trying to be a **** or start arguments. its just that my understanding of taoism tells me that this runs against the grain...

a) what Scott said;

b) taosim is not non-competative, it is non-absolutist; meaning that, it is a way of appreciating the constant change that goes on in the world; as such, it teaches one to observe directly and act accordingly - do what is best at the right time and place - there is no formula beyond that; it then gives "instruction" as to how one might best cultivate this ability to be able to be sensitive enough to changes; one very concrete way to cultivate this listening and ability to act is via direct physical contention with someone, such as occurrs in push-hands - meaning that pushing can be both an activity in and of itself, but can also be a way of "practicing" for life in general (well, it is also part of life in general, but it's also not); so one might glean from push hands something that enables one to better "compete" with others be it at home, work, etc., in a way that is more harmonious / efficient / whatever - so it's not anti-taoist at all; of course, when it becomes a fixed construct such as is found in many styles of taiji, then it no longer fulfills its roll as well as it might given more freedom and spontinaity to its practice...

[taai gihk yahn]

i have personally spoken to the jade emperor last november and he told me its ok to compete.

muthafu(ka still owes me 10 bucks...:mad:

[Syn7]

its my understanding that the tao encourages cooperation over competition as a means of growth... ive heard both sides of the argument and i stll stand by what i said before... i'll look for some quotes and whatnot sometime and try to back up my words...

i never eally thought about it untill i read an article on it, i'll see if i can find it...

[Scott R. Brown]

its my understanding that the tao encourages cooperation over competition as a means of growth... ive heard both sides of the argument and i stll stand by what i said before... i'll look for some quotes and whatnot sometime and try to back up my words...

i never eally thought about it untill i read an article on it, i'll see if i can find it...

Quotes won't make much difference. Tao is what is right before your face. You cannot deny what is right before your face......

Although, it IS a matter of perspective. Competeition, and every other interaction in life IS, in a sense, cooperation, but it is also competition. How we choose to view any phenomena influences how we experience it. Just as Yin is Yang and Yang is Yin.

Destruction is part of the balance of Tao, not wanting it to be so, or not percieving it to be so does not change it in the least.

Tao does not conform to our fancy, however it is in our best interest to understand the processes of Tao and accommodate ourselves to them.

[YouKnowWho]

its my understanding that the tao encourages cooperation over competition as a means of growth...

After you can beat the sh!t out of your challenger who knocks on your door, you can hug him and have spiritual growth with him for the rest of your life.

武(Wu) - martial = 止戈(Zhi Ge) - stop spear

After you can stop your opponent's spear that's coming toward your heart, you can then sing "kumbaya" as much as you want.

[bawang]

武(Wu) - martial = 止戈(Zhi Ge) - stop spear



武(Wu) - martial = 戈止( Ge Zhi) - using spear to end

[YouKnowWho]

武(Wu) - martial = 戈止( Ge Zhi) - using spear to end

I like that. :D

Only Chinese will know how to play words game like this. Do we share the same last name?

[Scott R. Brown]

I thought Wu Ge was a hom0phobic comment!:eek:

[donjitsu2]

Not the traditional type of push hands we're used to seeing.

This version seems like a step closer towards using those principles in an actual, aggressive self defense/fight situation.

I'm intrigued.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

The video didn't do justice to various matches, some were brilliant.. Kudos to Nick for opening it up to something more than 'paddy-cakes'.. after the formal competition, it was just open pushing and it got even better.. WCC Chen's students, 5 or more, wouldn't compete against each other for medals, skewing the results.. ultimately, the tournament was a prototype, Nick was studying the process carefully to continue evolving the competitions..

Be well..

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


its my understanding that the tao encourages cooperation over competition as a means of growth...
It is my understanding: Tao neither encourages nor discourages.. it simply 'is'.. stillness of mind allows the clarity to emerge that might reveal the 'isness' of Life, as opposed to the desirabilities that confuse minds..

Be well..

[Violent Designs]

I like what they're trying to do, and this is one good step along the way but...

But wouldn't just going straight to learn Shuai Jiao, Judo or Greco be umm.... this thing but more technical?

[Violent Designs]

This is awesome:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=HUJ_VKiz6No

[Knifefighter]

That isn't push hands, it is pushing to a takedown!:rolleyes:

How is that any different than what all boys do grow up doing? I was doing pushing to a takedown when I was 8 years old. I am NOT impressed!:(

Its almost judo!

Guess what? That's what it looks like when the opponent is actually resisting.

Good job for those guys for actually making it real.

[TaiChiBob]

This is awesome:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=HUJ_VKiz6No

Hi VD: Yes, it is awesome.. some well-trained skills, and understanding.. it is my belief and hope that Taijiquan can and will achieve and surpass that level of play.. i hope Master Scrima can keep this format going and evolving.. there is no reason that players can't evolve to the point of Chin Na executed 'to display the skill', without expressing the Fa and concluding damage.. of course, this relies on the oponent's respect of the technique.. but, the Extreme Push-hands event is the 'first step' of that 'thousand mile journey'..

There was lots of very open discussion about the direction of this sort of event and the liabilities and technicalities.. Master Scrima couldn't bring in mats, that would qualify the event as 'fighting' to be sanctioned by the state, and the venue rejected that.. to the credit of the competitors, they agreed to continue, and.. if you watch some of hard landings, there is little or no padding under that carpet.. there were some tough takedowns, and great sportsmanship..

I'm gonna talk out of school, here, and.. i hope no one is offended.. The Extreme Push-hands event put on by Master Scrima, was largely at his personal expense, he opened everything up to everybody, basicly free of charge.. Nick very graciously covered expenses for judges, referees, and visiting dignitaries.. we tried different rule combinations, time limits, legal/illeagal manuevers, etc.. and, it was an impressive group of people: competitors, judges, refs, timekeepers, scorekeepers, and all the help that goes into one of these events, that dedicated themselves and this event to advancing Taijiquan toward its formerly respected place in CMA..

Be well..





most of the people that showed-up were there because they believe in something more than the 'Silk Pajama Guys and Gals' pretending to 'fight'..

[woliveri]

Hey Bob,

I"m going to speak for myself here and say the direction of this type of event is really not what allured me into the Chinese arts and I don't find it interesting in the least. More power to Nick and this seems to be the way many are heading along with BJJ and MMA. Traditional Chinese Martial arts seem to be on the decline these days which is too bad.

Just to illustrate my point. Try to see Master Chan with his size and frame in one of these competitions (if he was a competitor). Just wouldn't work.

Traditional Martial Arts trained gongs as did MC and as does our Bagua and many others. Strike fast and sure and don't play around with wrestling or grappling if at all possible. While Shuai Jiao has merit and application it's just not for some people.

I think this is a wrong direction but that's just me.

Oh, one other thing. People also seem to be on the band wagon that those who practice in Traditional Chinese garb (the so called Silk Pajama) are less than martial artists. I assure all that this is not the case. Just take a flight over the pond where this is worn commonly, daily, and by very accomplished martial artists.

Other than that, it's good to see you back. Haven't seen you for a while and thought you might have had issues with your back.

Best,

Bill

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


Traditional Martial Arts trained gongs as did MC and as does our Bagua and many others. Strike fast and sure and don't play around with wrestling or grappling if at all possible. While Shuai Jiao has merit and application it's just not for some people.
Hi Bill: 'If at all possible", is the key.. when it's not possible, your life may depend on training and experience.. to be honest, how much actual 'technique' was trained at the temple? Sparring was brawling, and the few that could fight used other skills.. the essence of the the art, any art, is in a favorable conclusion, emphasis on 'conclusion'.. i favor this direction because it's not 'judge oriented', the 'conclusion' is evident..

That being said, i greatly favor the internal skills, but.. i also find those skills are not confined to the peculiar sensibilities of 'styles'.. internal skills are built on principles that are applicable in any style, including stick, blade, and firearms.. sometimes, we need to trust our skills beyond our comfort level, just to see if they are 'skills', or beliefs..

Be well..

[woliveri]

Greetings..

to be honest, how much actual 'technique' was trained at the temple?

Be well..

Well, I did say Traditional... The temple was form training. Watered down CMA to fit most interested westerners and to stay in business and out of lawsuits. My post was more about how MC was trained in China than how it's taught at the temple.


Best,

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


Oh, one other thing. People also seem to be on the band wagon that those who practice in Traditional Chinese garb (the so called Silk Pajama) are less than martial artists.
Hi Bill: I have no issue with what a person wears, my comment was directed toward the 'stereotype' some people have.. otherwise, it doesn't matter whether the person is wearing silk pajamas or a toga, if they kick your butt your skills need to be re-evaluated. The discussions about styles or traditional or so many other petty issues are settled by results.. and, i happen to believe that Taijiquan is perfectly capable of superior results.

Be well..

[woliveri]

Greetings..


Hi Bill: I have no issue with what a person wears, my comment was directed toward the 'stereotype' some people have.. otherwise, it doesn't matter whether the person is wearing silk pajamas or a toga, if they kick your butt your skills need to be re-evaluated. The discussions about styles or traditional or so many other petty issues are settled by results.. and, i happen to believe that Taijiquan is perfectly capable of superior results.

Be well..

Yes, you appear to have to fight the stigma of what Taiji has been come to known as here in the west and thus need to promote Taiji as a Martial art rather than a health exercise. I can understand that. However, one of the best quotes I've heard regarding Taiji recently from a man with a lifetime of experience and one I consider to be at an extremely high level was "Taiji is about self cultivation".

In my (our) day I remember the quote "there's always someone better" which is a very valid statement and goes in step with the above quote about self cultivation. It was not so much about fighting or proving I could fight but the beauty of the art and the science of the "gong", at least for me. TCMA has such incredible theories and "gongs" it seems such a waste to let it go. I mean, if we need protection a .357 magnum or a multitude of other weapons will do just fine. Do you plan to do extreme push hands in your 70s or 80s? Did Ma Yueh Liang do extreme push hands? Will EPH give you superior and radiant health into your 90s?

I'm not trying to come down on this, I'm just trying to understand the direction, the rational.

Best,

[Knifefighter]

I'm not trying to come down on this, I'm just trying to understand the direction, the rational.

The rational is that some people want to do what actually works against a resisting opponent... and the fact is you don't always have your gun and/or don't always have the option of using it.

[Knifefighter]

Just to illustrate my point. Try to see Master Chan with his size and frame in one of these competitions (if he was a competitor). Just wouldn't work.

Then, more than likely, he would have had his ass handed to him in a for real encounter also.


Traditional Martial Arts trained gongs as did MC and as does our Bagua and many others. Strike fast and sure and don't play around with wrestling or grappling if at all possible. While Shuai Jiao has merit and application it's just not for some people.

Most physical confrontations will have some kind of grappling... especially if one of the opponents decides to grapple.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


It was not so much about fighting or proving I could fight but the
beauty of the art and the science of the "gong", at least for me. TCMA has such
incredible theories and "gongs" it seems such a waste to let it go.
Hi Bill: I don't separate the practicality from the Art, i experience the Unity between the Art and the Martial.. yes, i finally made it back to the '60s', and i plan on going as long as i can.. by the way, thanks for asking about the back issues, there's still some 'inconsistencies' that need resolving from the surgery, but.. things are looking hopeful..

I don't plan on getting into the cage anytime soon, but i do like to test my self, my Art.. it is disingenuous to discuss, "Taijiquan' and not include its effectiveness as a Martial Art.. VD's 'awsome' clip is very nice, sophisticated, and very well executed, but.. it's another step in a very neat progression.. i look for the Art in Life, however it presents itself.. and, i do favor the old training ways, it tends to reveal the Art in places most people don't even look.. i wonder how many classes today begin with a 2 mile run followed by 15-30 minutes in a horse stance with a staff on your thighs?.. okay, now we start class, LOL..

Be well..

[woliveri]

Then, more than likely, he would have had his ass handed to him in a for real encounter also.


Yes, if he decided to grapple.

MC has more up his sleeve than most ppl know.

[YouKnowWho]

"Taiji is about self cultivation".

As much as I like to help to protect the honor of the CMA, sometime I just find out that I have to agree with our MMA guy on this forum instead of to agree with our CMA guys. Nothing will bother me more than to see Taiji become an art of "health", "performance", and "spiritual development"'. With the attitude of "self cultivation", Taiji will have no hope but will be laughted by MMA guys from generation to generation ...

It's sad that I have to align with intruder to beat up my own brother, very sad indeed.


While Shuai Jiao has merit and application it's just not for some people.
SC is not designed for "self cultivation" and that's for sure.


Yes, if he decided to grapple.
I'm sorry to say that sometime the choice will not be up to him.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


Originally Posted by woliveri
"Taiji is about self cultivation".
Do you suppose that 'self-cultivation' excludes cultivating self-defense? Some of my more spiritual moments were in intense training or finding that 'something extra' in a match that made the difference.. in pushing myself to 'go there'..

Be well..

[woliveri]

I don't know guys... Let me ask this

Are there weight classes in these competitions? Are there gender classifications?

Can a 114 pound 50 year old woman whip a 250 pound 22 year old man in Extreme Push Hands?

If she could then that would inspire me to know more. Right now it looks like glorified wrestling (IMO).

People who inspire me are people like Ma Yueh Liang, Share K. Lew, That chen style chick you met Bob (Cui IIRC) .. pssst.. you forgot to send me those links.

I'm still not getting it.

[Knifefighter]

I don't know guys... Let me ask this

Are there weight classes in these competitions? Are there gender classifications?

Can a 114 pound 50 year old woman whip a 250 pound 22 year old man in Extreme Push Hands?

If she could then that would inspire me to know more. Right now it looks like glorified wrestling (IMO).

People who inspire me are people like Ma Yueh Liang, Share K. Lew, That chen style chick you met Bob (Cui IIRC) .. pssst.. you forgot to send me those links.

I'm still not getting it.

LOL @ glorified wrestling.

I see you are only inspired by the fake, theoretical, non-fighting stuff.

Because, the fact of the matter is, when it comes to any kind of physical unarmed combat, the bigger, stronger person will always have the advantage if skill is equal.

BTW, wrestling takes far more skill than any type martial art that mainly performs forms and two man drills.

[woliveri]

I see you are only inspired by the fake, theoretical, non-fighting stuff.



Wow... SKL and MYL are/were fake... LOL...


You see what I mean Bob?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


You see what I mean Bob?
Hi Bill, and Knifefighter.. i think the differences are seeking to define themselves in opposition.. it is my hope that we might look for what is useful and favorable between the different perspectives, rather than find fault or conflict..

Be well..

[Knifefighter]

Wow... SKL and MYL are/were fake... LOL...


You see what I mean Bob?

Pretty much, yep.

Put them against someone (even at their own weight) who had training and experience with actual full-contact fighting and they would get smoked.

[woliveri]

Pretty much, yep.

Put them against someone (even at their own weight) who had training and experience with actual full-contact fighting and they would get smoked.

Well we are going to have to agree that we disagree. I don't care for your path, you don't care for mine. So be it.

Good training to you.

Later

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Well... that went well.. not so much really.. anyway, i'm not interested in speculating 'what ifs'.. i train to improve my experiences of, and chances at Life, ALL of it..

Be well..

[woliveri]

Greetings..

Well... that went well.. not so much really..

Be well..

Well, what'd you expect when someone says SKL is fake? You yourself was knocked on your @ss by him as you have told me.

At that point the conversation ends.

[YouKnowWho]

glorified wrestling...
You only need 1 contact point to push. You will need 2 or 3 contact points to throw. It's easier to push somone back, but much harder to throw someone down without the knowledge of knowing how to use your leg.

To have the skill to perform the following leg function can hardly be called "glorified wrestling".

踢 Forward kick (TI),
撮 Scooping kick (CUO),
粘 Sticking kick (ZHAN),
彈 Spring (TAN),
挑 Hooking kick (TIAO),
纏 Foot entangling (CHAN),
合 Inner hook (HE),
撿 Foot picking (JIAN),
沖 Inner kick(CHONG),
掛 Inner heel sweep (GUA),
刀 Inner sickle (DAO)
蹩 Break (BIE),
撩 Back kick (LIAO),
切 Front cut(QIE),
削 Sickle hooking (XIAO)
勾 Back sickle (GOU),
裏 Back inner hook (LI),
擓 Leg bending lift (KUAI)

[Knifefighter]

Well, what'd you expect when someone says SKL is fake? You yourself was knocked on your @ss by him as you have told me.

At that point the conversation ends.

Well make up your mind... either he lands people on their ass for real (which would mean he would be doing what you saw in those clips and he would do quite well in a grappling situation) or he didn't do it for real (in which case he wouldn't be training like you saw and wouldn't do so well in a grappling situation)... that is unless you are saying he had a full-contact striking match with Tai Chi Bob.

[woliveri]

Well make up your mind... either he lands people on their ass for real (which would mean he would be doing what you saw in those clips and he would do quite well in a grappling situation) or he didn't do it for real (in which case he wouldn't be training like you saw and wouldn't do so well in a grappling situation)... that is unless you are saying he had a full-contact striking match with Tai Chi Bob.

Go ask Bob.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

WOW!! Really?, a ****in' contest again.. no wonder i don't come to this place so often.. YES, Bill, SKL worked some amazing stuff on me, "no touch" stuff.. YES, Knifefighter, i believe the physics and well trained experience of a conditioned fighter are superior fighting skills.. and, now that i'm dragged into this ****in' contest.. the winner is the person with enough sense to train in BOTH perspectives, AND to keep their mouths shut!! Which is just what i'll do.

Be well..

[Knifefighter]

Greetings..

WOW!! Really?, a ****in' contest again.. no wonder i don't come to this place so often.. YES, Bill, SKL worked some amazing stuff on me, "no touch" stuff.. YES, Knifefighter, i believe the physics and well trained experience of a conditioned fighter are superior fighting skills.. and, now that i'm dragged into this ****in' contest.. the winner is the person with enough sense to train in BOTH perspectives, AND to keep their mouths shut!! Which is just what i'll do.

Be well..

"No touch"? Speaking of fake. I'd say that pretty much says it all.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


"No touch"? Speaking of fake. I'd say that pretty much says it all.
Nice!! You weren't there, you speak from no knowledge, that's arrogant and stupid.. I would have said the same thing prior to the incident, and it had nothing to do with MA.. SKL was doing some healing work, and i wanted to see/experience what was going on.. i guess i went where i wasn't invited.. really, you should learn a bit more about the world you live in..

Be well..

[Knifefighter]

Greetings..


Nice!! You weren't there, you speak from no knowledge, that's arrogant and stupid.. I would have said the same thing prior to the incident, and it had nothing to do with MA.. SKL was doing some healing work, and i wanted to see/experience what was going on.. i guess i went where i wasn't invited.. really, you should learn a bit more about the world you live in..

Be well..

LOL... last I checked, we were talking about him knocking you on your ass. You responded as if he had done that with no-touch.

If you are talking about healing with no touch, I have no problem with that. In the west we call it the placebo affect and it works as well, if not sometimes better, than actual intervention.

If he knocked you down with no touch, then you are the one who needs to learn more about the world.

[woliveri]

Greetings..


Nice!! You weren't there, you speak from no knowledge, that's arrogant and stupid.. I would have said the same thing prior to the incident, and it had nothing to do with MA.. SKL was doing some healing work, and i wanted to see/experience what was going on.. i guess i went where i wasn't invited.. really, you should learn a bit more about the world you live in..

Be well..


Thank you Bob. That's what I call real $hit. That's training a "gong". That's what Chinese training, real training is all about. Like I said, Shuai Jiao has it's place. I just wouldn't make it the center of my training.

Knifefighter. You are a frog in a well my friend... a frog in a well...

[Knifefighter]

Thank you Bob. That's what I call real $hit. That's training a "gong". That's what Chinese training, real training is all about. Like I said, Shuai Jiao has it's place. I just wouldn't make it the center of my training.

Knifefighter. You are a frog in a well my friend... a frog in a well...

Umm... I think it's been pretty much proven time and time again that you guys are the frogs in the well.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


LOL... last I checked, we were talking about him knocking you on your ass. You responded as if he had done that with no-touch.
You hear what you want to hear for the conflict you seek..

Thank you Bob. That's what I call real $hit.
Don't thank me, Bill.. i call it like i see it.. this thread was enjoying some decent discussion, now this.. this forum thrives on conflict.. now, i'll set the record straight..

SKL was doing some healing work, nice stuff.. the energies were tangible.. i started to walk across the room, respectfully, i thought.. he simply pointed in my direction with his free hand, and.. and, i have no valid explanation, but.. my knees just gave out, i slumped to a kneel.. maybe the training of that day caught-up with me, who knows.. SKL's wife came over and said, 'I think Master Lew is a little busy, right now.. why don't you come over here".. and she led me onto the porch.. conclude what you will from it, but.. the coincidences leave me believing there was more going on than i was able to understand..

So, that story hasn't changed from the day it happened.. it happened. If you heard 'knocked on your a$$', you wanted to hear that.. nothing i have ever said about that incident implied 'knoched me on my a$$'.. the strongest verbage, out of a softer context, was "it seemed like he dropped me".. cripe, wouldn't it be cool to just have a normal conversation sometimes..

Be well..

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


Here's what happens with the placebo affect:
Hi: I've got your back on this.. i can't explain what happend with SKL, it was unexpected, and.. maybe unrelated.. but, i will not wear blinders.. I train hard, we put on gloves and go at it, we hit the ground hard and work it.. my history goes back to the late 60's and the old PKA (Professional Karate Assn.).. there is no substitute for hard training, but.. it's possible that sometimes we might train hard in other 'Arts' and surprise ourselves.. try not to be so narrow-minded, it might leave you unprepared..

Be well..

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


BTW, my brother is a professional magician and my gf's mom was a psychic, and a hypnotist. I've seen most of the tricks and the rip-offs.
Cool, you win.. you are the man.. nothing is possible without your approval or without Mr. Randi's giving his money away.. BTW, i frequently refer people to Mr. Randi's offer.. i am solely at fault for revisiting this forum, expecting well-reasoned discussions..

Be well..

[woliveri]

Greetings..


You hear what you want to hear for the conflict you seek..

Don't thank me, Bill.. i call it like i see it.. this thread was enjoying some decent discussion, now this.. this forum thrives on conflict.. now, i'll set the record straight..

SKL was doing some healing work, nice stuff.. the energies were tangible.. i started to walk across the room, respectfully, i thought.. he simply pointed in my direction with his free hand, and.. and, i have no valid explanation, but.. my knees just gave out, i slumped to a kneel.. maybe the training of that day caught-up with me, who knows.. SKL's wife came over and said, 'I think Master Lew is a little busy, right now.. why don't you come over here".. and she led me onto the porch.. conclude what you will from it, but.. the coincidences leave me believing there was more going on than i was able to understand..

So, that story hasn't changed from the day it happened.. it happened. If you heard 'knocked on your a$$', you wanted to hear that.. nothing i have ever said about that incident implied 'knoched me on my a$$'.. the strongest verbage, out of a softer context, was "it seemed like he dropped me".. cripe, wouldn't it be cool to just have a normal conversation sometimes..

Be well..

No need to be testy Bob... Knocked on your @ss, knees buckled, whatever. I'm old and I don't have a photographic memory. So what? I thought the story was great. I've never met SKL but have had similar experiences from other Masters. The point here is SKL and others have trained a "gong" to their highest level. I apologize for my poor choice of words.

[woliveri]

Frogs in a well.

Hey, go get your own line.. That one is mine.

[woliveri]

Yeah, but it's more applicable to you.


More bullsh!t, er, I mean gong:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdrzBL2dHMI

LOL... I've seen that throat slap before in another video. Not something I would think is good for his students. But, I wouldn't be paying money for any of that either so we're on the same page.

What's unfortunate is you're just so close minded and pompous you'll never get it. But since you're happy with that so am I.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


YES, Bill, SKL worked some amazing stuff on me, "no touch" stuff.. YES, Knifefighter, i believe the physics and well trained experience of a conditioned fighter are superior fighting skills..
Again, it is solely my mistake.. i assumed people's reading and comprehension skills could see past their their petty prejudices.. 'some amazing stuff' is intentionally used to avoid the misconception of combat, but heck no.. somebody has to show how flippin' 'real' they are, challenge it and all that stuff.. so, i'm okay with you being the man, Knifefighter, really.. but, read the rest of the stuff i post, the stuff that supports your perspective.. try giving equal time, in fairness..

Be well..

[taai gihk yahn]

he simply pointed in my direction with his free hand, and.. and, i have no valid explanation, but.. my knees just gave out, i slumped to a kneel..
not so surprising, if u consider a few relatively objective and relatively subjective possibilities;

first, I don't think he "beamed" something at you; what I DO think is that entrainment / synchronization of people's autonomics can occur in different ways, to different degrees; for example, the study of women living together in a dormitory setting whose monthly cycles synchronize - it's not magic, it's purely in context of how we as "rhythm-based" organisms are as such;

so that is a long-term adaptive response; similarly, I think you can have this occur in a more focal locus - for example, when a singer "electrifies" the room with her performance, something happens that you and everyone else can "feel" physically, that changes how your physiology functions in the moment;

in SKL's case, I think that you had a significant parasympathetic response that was engendered by the combination of his own "field" effect and your personal desire to attune to that effect; I have also been in the room with various folks doing different sorts of treatments, and certain people seem to have the ability to create this sort of field effect by the state of their own internal focus; some do it naturally, others are trained, but in the end, it's all physiology, just working on a level that isn't typically described; and BTW, this may be placebo effect, but it's not like anything isn't happening - but yes, it does require "permission" from the patient to "work" - and this does not mean active belief - you can have someone dead set against believing in anything like this, but if they really need help re-calibrating towards homeostatis, they will "allow" for this entrainment on a non-conscious level; of course, the REAL danger here is that the practitioner gets far too caught up in themselves and thinks that they are the shiznit who has "healed" the other person (a good way to avoid this is to stay away from any warm-fuzzy energy healing and keep your techniques clean and structural; but I digress)

finally, his waving a hand in your direction could have been interpreted by your system on a non-conscious level as an enabler of some sort of expectation as to what might happen when a "powerful" old Chinese healer waves his hand at you - so you could have been predisposed to being impacted by that or similar symbol to cue your parasympathetic response (which again, requires you to be at ease in the situation);

anyway, it's just some ideas, having seen a lot of this sort of thing over the last 15 years in my professional work as a PT working in manual therapy, including a lot of osteopathic work, which includes things like cranial and visceral which some people do in a very down to earth way, and others more like polairty-style, e.g.;

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Hi TGY: Thanks for the input.. yep, i considered your explanations, i considered Knifefighter's placebo explanation, and.. i just don't know.. and, i'm okay with that.. i don't hold much stock in 'magic', i figure it's all just natural occurances we might not understand, yet.. to be clear, though, the 'placebo effect', when it is verified, is amazing.. regardless of the modality, healing is healing, the healed cancer patient doesn't complain.. actually, the placebo effect is a fairly good indicator of potential..

Be well..

[woliveri]

taai gihk yahn, have a look at this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7Fqsl7VWqI

[taai gihk yahn]

Greetings..

Hi TGY: Thanks for the input.. yep, i considered your explanations, i considered Knifefighter's placebo explanation, and.. i just don't know.. and, i'm okay with that.. i don't hold much stock in 'magic', i figure it's all just natural occurances we might not understand, yet.. to be clear, though, the 'placebo effect', when it is verified, is amazing.. regardless of the modality, healing is healing, the healed cancer patient doesn't complain.. actually, the placebo effect is a fairly good indicator of potential..

Be well..

"placebo" is one sort of effect that the organism utilizes to drive itself towards homeostatsis, and works more so on things like decreasing systemic inflammation / pain and other autonomic-based issues, although there is certainly a good deal of anecdotal "evidence" for it having some effect on other types of "organic" dysfunction (e.g - cancer); obviously it's not going to be so good at managing acute issues like heart attack, stroke or severed femoral artery!; the way I see it, is that it's a combination of intrinsic physiology and the individuals internal set of beliefs and expectations that the organism takes advantage of to generate a gradient from adrenergic to cholenergic output; for example, if you can't lift your arm past 90˚ at the shoulder, and I manipulate your T4/5 vertebra is "stuck" and immediately afterwards you can move your arm full range, placebo effect is not so much of an issue; OTOH, if u r the sort of person who doesn't like getting adjusted, but instead has to go through a 3-hour long fascial unwinding to get the arm up there and during the course of this event you have an emotional "release" where you relive some past trauma and wind up beliving that because your heart was "stuck" in that old trauma, it caused your shoulder to get stuck and only by going this way do you get ful range, well, placebo is probably part of the equation because u needed to have the control of dictating the terms of the "release" as opposed to having someone just manipulate you; so in other words, it can get tricky to pin down - I remember years ago one patient came and insisted that I do cranial treatment because "only cranial will fix me"; now, I was of the opinion that cranial was the LAST thing she needed, but hey, it wasn't my practice, so I sat at her head for an hour and moved my hands around every 5 to 10 minutes; at the end of the hour she sat up and thanked me for the wonderful treatment that she felt working exactly how she needed it the whole time :rolleyes:; that experience "proved" to me the subjective contumuum on which we all slide...and as such we need to be very careful about what we pretend we are doing and what we pretend is really going on...

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


and as such we need to be very careful about what we pretend we are doing and what we pretend is really going on...
Generally, we see the world, not as it is, but as we prefer it to be.. and, sometimes, there is insufficient data to make a verifiable determination one way or the other.. i have titanium plates between C5,6, and C6,7, i am fairly clear on the differences between placebo effficacy, medical efficacy, 'as we currently understand it'.. i try diligently to see the world 'as it is', clearly aware of the difficulties associated with that goal.. conditioning is a powerful lens that distorts our perceptions and influences our understandings.. my practice is centered around 'stillness', stilling the mind's inclinations and suspending its beliefs such that i might find a bit of Clarity in this distorted perception of Identity..

Be well..

[KC Elbows]

Hi VD: Yes, it is awesome.. some well-trained skills, and understanding.. it is my belief and hope that Taijiquan can and will achieve and surpass that level of play.. i hope Master Scrima can keep this format going and evolving.. there is no reason that players can't evolve to the point of Chin Na executed 'to display the skill', without expressing the Fa and concluding damage.. of course, this relies on the oponent's respect of the technique.. but, the Extreme Push-hands event is the 'first step' of that 'thousand mile journey'..

There was lots of very open discussion about the direction of this sort of event and the liabilities and technicalities.. Master Scrima couldn't bring in mats, that would qualify the event as 'fighting' to be sanctioned by the state, and the venue rejected that.. to the credit of the competitors, they agreed to continue, and.. if you watch some of hard landings, there is little or no padding under that carpet.. there were some tough takedowns, and great sportsmanship..

I'm gonna talk out of school, here, and.. i hope no one is offended.. The Extreme Push-hands event put on by Master Scrima, was largely at his personal expense, he opened everything up to everybody, basicly free of charge.. Nick very graciously covered expenses for judges, referees, and visiting dignitaries.. we tried different rule combinations, time limits, legal/illeagal manuevers, etc.. and, it was an impressive group of people: competitors, judges, refs, timekeepers, scorekeepers, and all the help that goes into one of these events, that dedicated themselves and this event to advancing Taijiquan toward its formerly respected place in CMA..

Be well..





most of the people that showed-up were there because they believe in something more than the 'Silk Pajama Guys and Gals' pretending to 'fight'..

Thanks for sharing that. I'm of the opinion that too much push hands as we see it is some teacher owning his low level students, and not enough seeing the talented folks whose teachers allow their growth. We have a group here that does an open push hands get-together twice weekly along the lines of what you're doing there(maybe some difference, some of us do taixuquan, which allows under elbow pull through type grips), if you or any of your people are ever in KC, please feel free to visit, you're doing a good thing that, imo, does not preclude you in any way from being traditional or doing traditional practices: merely, when opponents are more equal, there will be more contention in the motions, and the skill will grow faster, but it may not look like what some people have popularized as the practice. To each their own.

Forgive me if I missed it, do you have a website/org?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


Forgive me if I missed it, do you have a website/org?
Hi KCE: Thanks for the clarity.. here are some of our local websites, and Master Scrima's Tournament site..

www.kungfuchampionship.com

www.meetup.com/taichi-21/

www.wix.com/taichij64/cotton-fist-boxing

It is my practice to train, refine, and use what works, and set other stuff aside pending more info.. i've been surprised more than once by thinking i had the answers, now.. i take a wait and see attitude.. i met a guy that has good history in both Taiji and Aikido, i was skeptical but the result is beautiful.. i try not to limit myself with preconceptions.. of course, i try to win the lotto, too..

Be well..

[woliveri]

Forgive me if I missed it, do you have a website/org?


I think Bob got mad and left to seek more well reasoned discussions I guess. Anyway, AFAIK he has no website but you can search on Meetup.com for Orlando and Tai Chi. or... here you go:

http://www.meetup.com/taichi-21/

http://www.meetup.com/taichi-21/members/1744620/

Whoops... I stand corrected.

[KC Elbows]

Thanks, Bob, I appreciate that, and my view on training is the same.

[Scott R. Brown]

Women swoon (fall down) whenever I enter a room and I don't even have to point at them.........



.......with my finger, that is!!!!!!!!:D

[KC Elbows]

Women swoon (fall down) whenever I enter a room and I don't even have to point at them.........



.......with my finger, that is!!!!!!!!:D

Below the waist techniques are strictly prohibited!

[MartialDev]

Speaking of not being narrow minded, here's a site you might want to check out.
http://www.randi.org/site/

Explains a lot about "magical thinking".

There is also a $1,000,000 to anyone who can demonstrated paranormal abilities:
http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html


BTW, my brother is a professional magician and my gf's mom was a psychic, and a hypnotist. I've seen most of the tricks and the rip-offs.

The True Costs of Winning a Million Dollar Skeptic Challenge (http://www.martialdevelopment.com/blog/win-jref-million-dollar-challenge/)

[BlackHorseTC]

This is my first post. Hello! :)

I read this entire thread a couple days ago, but it takes a couple days for the registration to go through... I might not hit all of the points I wanted to. :P That said, I highly enjoyed the conversation in this thread and wanted to add some stuff.

I found this thread because I was curious about the "SEO Juice" on my website, so I searched "john meehan push hands" to see if a recent blog entry I made would show up (it didn't then, it does now. :) )

There are three things I wanted to touch on. Extreme push hands, the "goal" of tai chi (particularly as a "martial art") and "no touch."

First, I want to go back to a post by TaiChiBob:

Hi VD: Yes, it is awesome.. some well-trained skills, and understanding.. it is my belief and hope that Taijiquan can and will achieve and surpass that level of play.. i hope Master Scrima can keep this format going and evolving.. there is no reason that players can't evolve to the point of Chin Na executed 'to display the skill', without expressing the Fa and concluding damage.. of course, this relies on the oponent's respect of the technique.. but, the Extreme Push-hands event is the 'first step' of that 'thousand mile journey'..

There was lots of very open discussion about the direction of this sort of event and the liabilities and technicalities.. Master Scrima couldn't bring in mats, that would qualify the event as 'fighting' to be sanctioned by the state, and the venue rejected that.. to the credit of the competitors, they agreed to continue, and.. if you watch some of hard landings, there is little or no padding under that carpet.. there were some tough takedowns, and great sportsmanship..

I'm gonna talk out of school, here, and.. i hope no one is offended.. The Extreme Push-hands event put on by Master Scrima, was largely at his personal expense, he opened everything up to everybody, basicly free of charge.. Nick very graciously covered expenses for judges, referees, and visiting dignitaries.. we tried different rule combinations, time limits, legal/illeagal manuevers, etc.. and, it was an impressive group of people: competitors, judges, refs, timekeepers, scorekeepers, and all the help that goes into one of these events, that dedicated themselves and this event to advancing Taijiquan toward its formerly respected place in CMA..

Be well..

most of the people that showed-up were there because they believe in something more than the 'Silk Pajama Guys and Gals' pretending to 'fight'..
I just want to say YES to all of that! :D I consider myself a "real" martial artist (whatever that means in this day and age) and the current state of tai chi in the US disappoints me. I think the health and spiritual aspects of the art are AWESOME, but they should go hand-in-hand with the martial side.

To make my point quickly, I look forward to the day that a Mixed Martial Artist legitimately appends tai chi to his list of arts (ie BJJ, Muay Thai, Tai Chi). Which brings me to my second topic... the "goal" of tai chi.

When training tai chi, you're (all of this is IMHO of course ;) ) training some VERY specific things and trying to refine them to levels that are... "beyond belief." Judokas, BJJers, MMAers, kickboxers, wrestlers, etc. will all learn how to neutralize and issue force. A lot of them also learn how to be soft and relaxed while doing so. Tai Chi is SPECIFICALLY training those skills (yielding, balance, neutralizing, issuing, rooting, centering, etc.) and, if trained diligently and properly, should (I believe) produce results not (normally) accessible from other martial arts (this is even without getting into things like "chi" and the like which I believe is above my pay grade to discuss ;) ).

This brings me to the "no touch" stuff which was mentioned as well. I think before I go into that too much, I'd like to touch on the "chi" stuff. I recently uploaded a video clip of me and Master Henry Wang (http://searchcentertaichi.com/aboutMHW.html). There's videos of him on the YouTubes doing his no touch thing, but I don't want to talk about that just yet. Here's the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zt49FJCGcxw

If you don't have time to watch it, it's basically some clips of the first time I met him. The clips I put there were special (to me) because they were my "converting" clips. I was there, I experienced it, I can watch the clips over and over and... I don't quite understand what happened to me. What I do understand is that whatever it was, it was something that is (to my knowledge) unattainable with "regular training" (ie getting really fit, lifting weights, wrestling, etc.) I suppose people could go into the "oh, you were expecting something," or "you wanted something to happen," but I assure you, I was there to test him and see if this was the art for me. I like to use this clip of me doing a crazy armbar (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N17UR1TC9s) as "proof" that I take martial arts seriously. Anyhow, my guess is that (what people describe as) "chi/qi" is what's behind his ability to do the stuff in that video. I was already sold on what he was able to do touching me, the "no touch" stuff I didn't even care about (and still don't :) ), but I've had some experience with it...

I have a bunch of video footage of him doing "no touch" to me and I even have the first time he did it to me (successfully) on video. What's this? Successfully?

So the first time he attempted no touch he was sitting on a bench and asked me to walk towards him (it was actually RIGHT after this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5MZoQPz99M)). I walked towards him, he did all this stuff with his arms and... nothing. Second and third time was the exact same thing. He just says to himself "Interesting."

Then (and I can put the video up of this) in the middle of a practice session involving me walking towards him, pushing him and getting thrown back he, out of know where, does the action he would normally do to throw me but... I wasn't touching him yet. I wasn't expecting this, he didn't tell me it was coming, but BAM there it was and... I moved without touching him.

I wish I could tell you how and why it worked but... It's above my pay grade. ;) I don't know. My best explanation is a combination of me getting "conditioned" to being thrown and "seeing" the throw come before I get there, plus suggestion, plus "chi"? I don't know. :)

I wish I had my "serious" experience on camera (maybe it wasn't recording on purpose). One time, when I was walking towards him to push him while he was sitting he DROPPED me (without touching). This one time it wasn't a "Hey look at which way my hands are telling you to go," situation. I TOTALLY wasn't expecting anything and... BAM dropped. Maybe there's an explanation for that too (above my pay grade).

What I like about Master Wang is that he doesn't make any claims about being able to fight using no touch. He just says it's "interesting." He doesn't even do push hands anymore. He takes long walks, eats good and practices tai chi. A lifestyle I'm determined to "master." ;)

[YouKnowWho]

when a singer "electrifies" the room with her performance, something happens that you and everyone else can "feel" physically, that changes how your physiology functions in the moment;

Many years ago, there was a Qi master who came to Austin, Texas. If you paid him $450, he would send his Qi into your body and you would walk like a zombie. I had seen by my own eyes that a room full of people (about 30) walked just like a group of walking dead.

What could cause that to happen in your opinion?

[Scott R. Brown]

Many years ago, there was a Qi master who came to Austin, Texas. If you paid him $450, he would send his Qi into your body and you would walk like a zombie. I had seen by my own eyes that a room full of people (about 30) walked just like a group of walking dead.

What could cause that to happen in your opinion?

Group expectation! Sometimes it is actually easier to hypnotize a group than a single individual! In cases like this, if a person does not believe in the power of the leader, but does have an emotional need for group acceptance, that is enough to influence conforming behavior, regardless of their initial level of incredulity.

There are psychological group dynamics that play into it. When individuals have an emotional investment in anything they are more likely to be susceptible to the expectations of others, especially when an authoritative person is the leader.

Not many people have the strength of will of be the odd man out in a group participation event, even if they do not accept the premise of the event activity. In essence you have the option of not participating and being ostracized by the group, or conforming to the group dynamics and being accepted.

This is a phenomena that occurs, often, just below ones conscious awareness. Upon reflection, they may be able to see what happened, but during the event they are caught up in the group dynamics and tend to conform.

Good hypnotists are able to perceive who is not "playing along" and eliminate them from the group so their attitude does not "wake up" the other participants, or they will apply subtle psychological pressure in an effort to pressure conformity.

[Peaceful Orchid]

This is my first post. Hello! :)

I read this entire thread a couple days ago, but it takes a couple days for the registration to go through... I might not hit all of the points I wanted to. :P That said, I highly enjoyed the conversation in this thread and wanted to add some stuff.

I found this thread because I was curious about the "SEO Juice" on my website, so I searched "john meehan push hands" to see if a recent blog entry I made would show up (it didn't then, it does now. :) )

There are three things I wanted to touch on. Extreme push hands, the "goal" of tai chi (particularly as a "martial art") and "no touch."

First, I want to go back to a post by TaiChiBob:

I just want to say YES to all of that! :D I consider myself a "real" martial artist (whatever that means in this day and age) and the current state of tai chi in the US disappoints me. I think the health and spiritual aspects of the art are AWESOME, but they should go hand-in-hand with the martial side.

To make my point quickly, I look forward to the day that a Mixed Martial Artist legitimately appends tai chi to his list of arts (ie BJJ, Muay Thai, Tai Chi). Which brings me to my second topic... the "goal" of tai chi.

When training tai chi, you're (all of this is IMHO of course ;) ) training some VERY specific things and trying to refine them to levels that are... "beyond belief." Judokas, BJJers, MMAers, kickboxers, wrestlers, etc. will all learn how to neutralize and issue force. A lot of them also learn how to be soft and relaxed while doing so. Tai Chi is SPECIFICALLY training those skills (yielding, balance, neutralizing, issuing, rooting, centering, etc.) and, if trained diligently and properly, should (I believe) produce results not (normally) accessible from other martial arts (this is even without getting into things like "chi" and the like which I believe is above my pay grade to discuss ;) ).

This brings me to the "no touch" stuff which was mentioned as well. I think before I go into that too much, I'd like to touch on the "chi" stuff. I recently uploaded a video clip of me and Master Henry Wang (http://searchcentertaichi.com/aboutMHW.html). There's videos of him on the YouTubes doing his no touch thing, but I don't want to talk about that just yet. Here's the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zt49FJCGcxw

If you don't have time to watch it, it's basically some clips of the first time I met him. The clips I put there were special (to me) because they were my "converting" clips. I was there, I experienced it, I can watch the clips over and over and... I don't quite understand what happened to me. What I do understand is that whatever it was, it was something that is (to my knowledge) unattainable with "regular training" (ie getting really fit, lifting weights, wrestling, etc.) I suppose people could go into the "oh, you were expecting something," or "you wanted something to happen," but I assure you, I was there to test him and see if this was the art for me. I like to use this clip of me doing a crazy armbar (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N17UR1TC9s) as "proof" that I take martial arts seriously. Anyhow, my guess is that (what people describe as) "chi/qi" is what's behind his ability to do the stuff in that video. I was already sold on what he was able to do touching me, the "no touch" stuff I didn't even care about (and still don't :) ), but I've had some experience with it...

I have a bunch of video footage of him doing "no touch" to me and I even have the first time he did it to me (successfully) on video. What's this? Successfully?

So the first time he attempted no touch he was sitting on a bench and asked me to walk towards him (it was actually RIGHT after this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5MZoQPz99M)). I walked towards him, he did all this stuff with his arms and... nothing. Second and third time was the exact same thing. He just says to himself "Interesting."

Then (and I can put the video up of this) in the middle of a practice session involving me walking towards him, pushing him and getting thrown back he, out of know where, does the action he would normally do to throw me but... I wasn't touching him yet. I wasn't expecting this, he didn't tell me it was coming, but BAM there it was and... I moved without touching him.

I wish I could tell you how and why it worked but... It's above my pay grade. ;) I don't know. My best explanation is a combination of me getting "conditioned" to being thrown and "seeing" the throw come before I get there, plus suggestion, plus "chi"? I don't know. :)

I wish I had my "serious" experience on camera (maybe it wasn't recording on purpose). One time, when I was walking towards him to push him while he was sitting he DROPPED me (without touching). This one time it wasn't a "Hey look at which way my hands are telling you to go," situation. I TOTALLY wasn't expecting anything and... BAM dropped. Maybe there's an explanation for that too (above my pay grade).

What I like about Master Wang is that he doesn't make any claims about being able to fight using no touch. He just says it's "interesting." He doesn't even do push hands anymore. He takes long walks, eats good and practices tai chi. A lifestyle I'm determined to "master." ;)

Why do you think you are unable to apply that principle/technique when you are in your grappling competitions?

[BlackHorseTC]

Why do you think you are unable to apply that principle/technique when you are in your grappling competitions?
I've actually been really successful at applying principles in competition (I've never been very into techniques). It's just really subtle in grappling competitions.

For example, my experience with tai chi allows me to more easily "feel" a weakness in a persons balance and attack that weakness using a traditional (BJJ/Judo) throw/take down. If I were to use JUST tai chi in a grappling competition it would involve me constantly throwing a person off of me and... that's not the goal of a grappling competition.

I was (and still am) very fond of an open guard in grappling/BJJ tournaments so... I could pretty much just sit down and be happy. :) Tai chi isn't all that useful in that situation. BUT...

I used to be a bouncer at a local night club and got to use tai chi to subdue an opponent. This was my first "real life" use of tai chi. What made it really cool/interesting is that the other guys at the night club all do MMA/boxing/kickboxing.

What happened was someone was being rowdy (happens a lot). He got too rowdy and the two guys downstairs were about to beat on him. One of the managers asked me to run downstairs and cool things out (I was the "cool" guy). RIGHT when I got to the bottom of the stairs things heated up, one guy was on his back choking him, the other guy was punching him in the face. They threw him in the street and that's when I stepped in.

When he got up, I told him not to go back over there. He starts to push past me and... it's was push hands time! I basically just neutralized all his attempts to get by (he shoved, threw some punches and even did a really weak one handed choke attempt). He basically wore himself out and I walked with him down the block.

What I learned was cool about tai chi (vs the "hard" martial arts) is that you can cool a guy out like that, not hurt yourself and not hurt him. When someone starts getting wild like that, the only recourse the other bouncers have are punches, kicks and throws.

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All that being said I have 2 more things. :)

1. I actually want to start sparring "using tai chi" and see where it goes. For fun/experimenting. In tournament/MMA situations I don't think tai chi alone is very useful BUT I think it can be the edge that makes a person a much more formidable opponent.

2. I think a lot of the "foundational" tai chi stuff is present in a lot of martial arts (judo, bjj, muay thai grappling, etc.) and isn't particularly special. What I think IS special is what can potentially be reached when SOLELY focusing on the principles of tai chi (relaxation, balance, center, proportion, coordination, etc.)

...

I write a lot. lol