How would you get out of these?

[chusauli]

WCK people are known for their standing infighting (and internet infighting... :)), but what would they do in the following scenarios?

There's the mount, side mount, scarf hold, and rear naked choke.

5701

5702

5703

[chusauli]

Side mount

5704

[m1k3]

Once your opponent has the RNC sunk in the only way to get out is to tap.

[goju]

^ you can also pass out:D

[Simon Morris]

Hello Robert.
All these positions are reversable. The best educators/trainers for the solutions would be at your local grappling club (judo, bjj, sombo, catch etc). Anyone at blue belt level in BJJ could guide you well in the reversals.
The rear naked choke picture is fully on and would prove a tough one - as you have already lost the ability to protect the neck, also the legs are controlling the hip mobility.
Are these pin/holds proving a tough one for you?
Get on the mat and start to apply the make space - move hips protocol.
Good luck with your grappling journey.
Simon.

[sanjuro_ronin]

From my first judo class:
Best way to counter anything is to take the guy out BEFORE he applies it.

Of course we don't live in an ideal world and as such we need to have "OH ****" responses, this is when we DO end up in those places we never wanna be.

How do we get those responses?
By finding and training with people that GET US INTO those situations.

The Answers will present themselves accordingly.

[goju]

hell you learn to escape from those before you even get to blue belt in bjj

you can also never bathe so no one wants to grapple with you:D

[chusauli]

What I am getting at is what WCK responses are there?

[sanjuro_ronin]

What I am getting at is what WCK responses are there?

VS the mount: Chain punch
VS the side mount: Chain punch
VS the side control: Chain punch
VS the RNC: chain punch.
:D

[Dragonzbane76]

hum... well i never like to be put into the situations but knowing the escapes are pretty darn handy.

Mount: left or right outside sweep on the leg if he's leaning forward a good bit.
If he's rising, buck, turn, try to slip the back door, watching out for him taking back.

the rear choke: at the level he's got sunk I doubt your going to get out. Coach always preached, 2 ON 1, meaning 2 hands on one of there's. control of the hand, trying to turn into them, or slip one of the legs off the hook position for mobility.

scarf/side head: continue to roll into them while pulling your arm back towards center.

[Dragonzbane76]

What I am getting at is what WCK responses are there?

oppss... I'll let pass for the cricket gallary.

[HumbleWCGuy]

VS the mount: Chain punch
VS the side mount: Chain punch
VS the side control: Chain punch
VS the RNC: chain punch.
:D

Hilarity................................:)

[David Jamieson]

First, LOL @ a JJ thread leaking into chain punch alley here....
but:

1) the mount (as shown) - wrist control> 1 ankle overlock > one sided hipthrust and roll and you're out. there are other ways out as well, but that's one.

2) RNC (sunken is hard but not impossible to get out of) > both hands grab the wrist and jerk pull on the arm beneath your chin> thrust hips up> twist over into his guard. Again, this is only one way to ease up an RNC.

3) side mount you have to counter rotate> twist> get up or look for other failures in his gates.

4) side mount with arm lock > arch your neck back> grab collar or reach under chin of holder and push while arch backward bow > twist out on first chance to.


Best way to learn is to get into those holds and then work to get out of them. Written descriptions do no justice. But I've been in each of those holds and have been taught how to get out of them in a few different ways.

Having said that, I don't even practice much in the way of wrestling or JJ.
So, for some of you young guys, if you're not trying this stuff to the exclusivity of some style, you are robbing yourself.

If you want to actually be a well rounded skilled fighter, you must work in all ranges. One range is simply not good enough. NO matter how much you want to not be taken down, you will be taken down and it's important that you know what to do when you are taken there.

There is essentially nothing in Wing Chun or most TCMA that will help you to learn how to deal with this stuff. We can go on about chin na this and shuai jiao that but really? really? lol

wanna learn to swim? get in the water. period.

flame on! :D

[David Jamieson]

And just to be a jerk, I didn't mention any of the pressure point applications that are typically used in JJ to get the holder to comply with your escape attempts.

If I did that, then people wouldn't bother to learn the more basic escapes first.

They'd go straight for the artery pinches, muscle grabs and joint presses...lol

[lkfmdc]

At the risk of causing a flame war (oh, heck, it IS the wing chun forum) but anyway and any hoo

there are no "wing chun answers"

ie, there are only answers... this will shock a few here, but the way a good BJJ person gets out of those is NOT different then how a sambo or judo or wrestling person would....

and if a wing chun person wanted to get out, they've have to look at similar technqiues

[SAAMAG]

VS the mount: Chain punch
VS the side mount: Chain punch
VS the side control: Chain punch
VS the RNC: chain punch.
:D

:D lol. So true.

[HumbleWCGuy]

What I am getting at is what WCK responses are there?

There really isn't a strong WC strategy in my opinion. I think that typically what one would try to do in WC is to get off finger and wrist locks along with eye gouges. The problem with that strategy though is that a WCer doesn't have the understanding of body position like the grappler and the grappler can resort to gouging and locks on the smaller joints as well. If someone has you in a scarfhold, do you really think that it is wise to poke him in the eye and really make him mad?

If a WCer is going to be taken to the ground it needs to be a race to how quickly he can get to the vital points. Although, like I said, without a good understanding of position, there really aren't good options for a "strict" WCer who has been mounted or put into a scarfold etc.

Edit: The only weakness that I think that a WCer could expose against a grappler is that often grapplers get overly into the sport aspects so in that regard a WCer could have a small chance of success.

[HumbleWCGuy]

At the risk of causing a flame war (oh, heck, it IS the wing chun forum) but anyway and any hoo

there are no "wing chun answers"

ie, there are only answers... this will shock a few here, but the way a good BJJ person gets out of those is NOT different then how a sambo or judo or wrestling person would....

and if a wing chun person wanted to get out, they've have to look at similar technqiues

I think other than a few people who lie and claim that their WC contains extensive ground grappling, no one would disagree.

[chusauli]

VS the mount: Chain punch
VS the side mount: Chain punch
VS the side control: Chain punch
VS the RNC: chain punch.
:D


Chain punch to the mount will result in you being smothered then choked out or arm dislocated in arm bar or other submission...

Chain punch vs. Side mount would again have you submitted.

Chain punch against side control would lead you into a choke or crucifix.

Chain punch against a RNC would be an unconscious WCK'er.

:D

Of course, people would say never get in the situation, but sometimes its unavoidable. I have always been a big advocate for cross training and know martial arts deal with 5 main areas: striking, kicking, joint locking, throwing and ground fighting.

Besides Fujian Dog Fist, Drunken Boxing and Di Tang Men, Chinese martial arts rarely deal with ground fighting.

Is WCK is useless in the above situations? Try it out. :) Get into the above scenarios and see how you will get out of them with WCK. Share with the group. No politics, just a positive discussion.

[lkfmdc]

I think other than a few people who lie and claim that their WC contains extensive ground grappling, no one would disagree.

answers like that will get us nowhere :D

[chusauli]

oppss... I'll let pass for the cricket gallary.

LOL!

http://www.naturesongs.com/insects.html

[sanjuro_ronin]

Chain punch to the mount will result in you being smothered then choked out or arm dislocated in arm bar or other submission...

Chain punch vs. Side mount would again have you submitted.

Chain punch against side control would lead you into a choke or crucifix.

Chain punch against a RNC would be an unconscious WCK'er.

:D

Of course, people would say never get in the situation, but sometimes its unavoidable. I have always been a big advocate for cross training and know martial arts deal with 5 main areas: striking, kicking, joint locking, throwing and ground fighting.

Besides Fujian Dog Fist, Drunken Boxing and Di Tang Men, Chinese martial arts rarely deal with ground fighting.

Is WCK is useless in the above situations? Try it out. :) Get into the above scenarios and see how you will get out of them with WCK. Share with the group. No politics, just a positive discussion.

You obviously don't have the Real Authentic (TM) WCK !!
:p

[m1k3]

You do realize when moving to the ground the number of centerlines grows from 3 to 7.

Besides the center and the shoulder/nip lines you have to add the 2 hip, 2 knee lines. The head line is the same as the center centerline although it can have some curve to it. Some people include the elbow lines but a good grappler and chunner will keep his elbows close and do as Eddie Bravo calls it, a T-Rex.

Hope that helps everyone.:p

[Dragonzbane76]

i'm not real familar with WC, so i don't know what they have to offer. From the reaction i can see that its not much. :rolleyes:

[chusauli]

You obviously don't have the Real Authentic (TM) WCK !!
:p

Yes, I know. :)

I'm still looking for those to step up and teach me.

Onegaishimasu!

[monji112000]

You do realize when moving to the ground the number of centerlines grows from 3 to 7.

Besides the center and the shoulder/nip lines you have to add the 2 hip, 2 knee lines. The head line is the same as the center centerline although it can have some curve to it. Some people include the elbow lines but a good grappler and chunner will keep his elbows close and do as Eddie Bravo calls it, a T-Rex.

Hope that helps everyone.:p

hmm I don't really follow the 7 lines theory..?
what Eddie calls T-Rex or Home alone is BJJ 101 you learn from the start.. I honestly (no disrespect to anyone) don't think someone who hasn't been shown,and put into a high stress situation using that style of defensive nature will do it naturally. In my experience its by allot of bridging attempts. Everyone says bridge but what they don't realize is thats well and good like sprawling.. how to use it is a whole other ball game.

[bennyvt]

Robert, I don't understand :rolleyes:, if you say that any fighting is VT then anything you would do would be a VT response so why ask the questions, just like the biu jee guilloten its all the same thing isn't it :D

[chusauli]

Robert, I don't understand :rolleyes:, if you say that any fighting is VT then anything you would do would be a VT response so why ask the questions, just like the biu jee guilloten its all the same thing isn't it :D

Maybe you could tell us how WSL or Barry would get out of these! :D After all, the elbow aligned punch to the kisser should do it... :confused:

[shawchemical]

Maybe you could tell us how WSL or Barry would get out of these! :D After all, the elbow aligned punch to the kisser should do it... :confused:

You're a facetious little knob mobster aren't you.

Not getting into them in the first place is a good start.

What if scenarios are nothing but hot air filled, circle jerk sessions. Something I hear you're quite experienced at.

Realistically, there is no tapping out in a real fight. You die or you live, nothing more. If you let someone sink a choke deeply enough, you can't escape.

Something needs to be done quickly to make the pressure ease to allow you to attempt an escape. Break a finger, bite whatever you can get a hold of.

[Knifefighter]

Realistically, there is no tapping out in a real fight. You die or you live, nothing more. If you let someone sink a choke deeply enough, you can't escape.

LOL... street fights often don't result in someone going to the hospital or morgue... and people often do "tap" by quitting and giving up.

[shawchemical]

LOL... street fights often don't result in someone going to the hospital or morgue... and people often do "tap" by quitting and giving up.

Lol, you must know something about real fights that the rest of the world doesn't.

[Ultimatewingchun]

What I am getting at is what WCK responses are there?

***What do you think, Robert?

[Ultimatewingchun]

"At the risk of causing a flame war (oh, heck, it IS the wing chun forum) but anyway and any hoo

there are no 'wing chun answers'..." (lkfmdc/Dave Ross)
..............................




***Ya' think?! :cool:

[HumbleWCGuy]

Lol, you must know something about real fights that the rest of the world doesn't.


People get into a few fights at a college bar and think that they have representative sample of how it goes down "for real."

I grew up around some people who have done some serious prison time and they aren't tough by amateur or professional fighting standards but, your life is in jeopardy if you square up with somebody like that. When you have been around people who have murdered, attempted to murder, conspire to murder, disfigured people, and so on, you are less likely to make off hand remarks about the time that you choked out a college kid and made him give up.

I am from a small town in the Midwest and I find those sorts of comments about street fights pretty laughable too. I am sure that guys from NYC, Dallas, NO, Dade County FL, and such will have a similar reaction.

[Knifefighter]

People get into a few fights at a college bar and think that they have representative sample of how it goes down "for real."

I grew up around some people who have done some serious prison time and they aren't tough by amateur or professional fighting standards but, your life is in jeopardy if you square up with somebody like that. When you have been around people who have murdered, attempted to murder, conspire to murder, disfigured people, and so on, you are less likely to make off hand remarks about the time that you choked out a college kid and made him give up.

I am from a small town in the Midwest and I find those sorts of comments about street fights pretty laughable too. I am sure that guys from NYC, Dallas, NO, Dade County FL, and such will have a similar reaction.

If you have been in many fights (or even around when they happen), you quickly figure out that even people who have been in prison often get into fights without someone getting murdered or sent to the hospital.

People who seriously maim or kill others every time they get into an altercation are actually a minority and most of them spend the majority of their adult lives in prison.

[anerlich]

LOL at this going from a question on ground escapes to arguing about the lethality of street encounters.

In my experience what groundfighting there is in WC is to do with fighting a standing opponent when you have fallen over, the objective being to get to your feet again ASAP. There is no real concept of positional control. Alan Orr shows how to use "the WC stance" for positional control on a downed opponent but what he does looks exactly like what my BJJ coach, who has not done a WC lesson in his life, advocates in a defense situation when the guy is down but you don't want to go to the ground yourself. To be fair to Alan, he does also say that there is a degree of commonality across many arts. But he also says IMO in as many words that if you want to groundfight effectively, learn grappling, and practises what he preaches.

Robert, maybe you should ask him, assuming your question is a sincere one.

IMO talking about WC mount and RNC escapes is about as sensible as talking about the fine points of punching and kicking in BJJ.

[HumbleWCGuy]

If you have been in many fights (or even around when they happen), you quickly figure out that even people who have been in prison often get into fights without someone getting murdered or sent to the hospital.
There is a big difference between a guy who spent a few days in county for DWI or an "honor camp" and a guy who went to maximum security prison.




People who seriously maim or kill others every time they get into an altercation are actually a minority and most of them spend the majority of their adult lives in prison.

Yup... They go to jail and get out get crazy and go back.

[Wu Wei Wu]

What errors were made that caused the WC man to end up in these positions?

IME, arguments about hypothetical scenarios or the "what if" game tends to be redundant. Better just to keep your mouth shut and train, no?

Suki

[Frost]

With great difficultly i imagine, i never saw anything in my wing chun (or any other TCMA i have studied) to deal with those positions, and it seems guys with a lot more expereince than me in wing chun have also not seen anything that would help them. I have seem wing chun ways of dealing with a grounded opponent when you are stood up or where your attacker is stood over you, but non that show how to deal with being underneath someone, i have seen guys try to punch and strike from the bottom but that isnt a great idea

[bennyvt]

I said on a previous thread, although he has said I can have a school,I dont speak for Barry. I sure don't speak for WSL. Much like yourself but it more because I don't think I am at their level to be able to speak for him where as noone will claim you as a student to talk for them.there were only a few who could speak for WSL. I use what I have learnt from my teacher bill (you used to talk on the old net, before the pictures, on the mailing list.), Barry and his other senior guys, in austarlai we are lucky to be close so I have the privalige to leanr off most of Barry senior guys. Other WSL guys and different systems I have been introduced to.
I have never asked Barry. In all the fights he had he didn't say if he hit the ground. I know he fought a top judo guy who although he won the guy stuffed his back as barry said he wanted to see if he could stop him once he got his hands on him. As barry said he fought to learn so its a bit different.
I personally would use the VT that I could but mainly the grappling like everyone else. I think VT can be used to strike and control when used with proper grappling. This is only learnt by learning grappling. Without learning grappling Vt has no poistional control or possible change. Yes you can lap sao but if you are not doing some sort of sweep or bridge with it then you are still on the ground in the same ****ty spot. Getting out of the moves means you must learn grappling and then add the VT, yes there are similarities, just like riding a bike and a motor bike. But if you"ve only riden the bike doesn't mean you can jump straight on a motor bike. I have found many things the same. Even my mistakes, like when starting chi sao when ever someone would hold me I would lock up and struggle. I found I was doing the same when trying to get rid of locks. If I relaxed and exploded then it worked. That is the same as VT. Does that make it a VT move, NO. Its just doing it right. Billy robinson (catch guy) when showing an escape. Pop the hips (bridge) and shoot out the other hand, just like a punch. I saw that and thought, "**** I thought that was just me thinking VT."
Well here is an answer, so how about you robert. You started this "discussion" so why are you not contributing to it. You wouldn't just be trolling again. Let me guess, this is your next book or DVD and you are going to use what we say without understanding it. This thread seems alot like a knifefighter thread, lest he isn't this obvious. You both learnt off hawkins didn't you. Maybe you fequent under the same Bridges.
I feel sorry for alan, he comes here to try to stand up against the lies people are saying only to read posts and thread were you are obviously just trolling yourself. :o

[LoneTiger108]

Something needs to be done quickly to make the pressure ease to allow you to attempt an escape. Break a finger, bite whatever you can get a hold of.

Agreed :D I've always been an advocate of biting. Well, it worked for Bruce against Sammo, so why not little old me against a grappling monster!!?? :eek:

[Frost]

Agreed :D I've always been an advocate of biting. Well, it worked for Bruce against Sammo, so why not little old me against a grappling monster!!?? :eek:

i remember watching a sparring match between my MMA coach and a visiting TKD guy, was all friendly until my coach took his back and he tried to bite my coaches arm as he went to put the choke on...ever seen anyone facelocked its not a pretty picture:)

and all joking aside biting the big calf or any leg muscle doesnt have that much effect, and if it did (for the sake of arguement) whats the first thing people do in pain..... jerk and thrash...do you really want someone doing that when they have your are hyperextended?

[LoneTiger108]

and all joking aside

Personally, all this 'if he did this?' is quite a waste of time for me, which is why I was joking about in the first place ;)

[Lee Chiang Po]

The problem with these forum discussions is that most of the participants don't really know a great deal about what they are talking about. Wing Chun, like most other fighting systems, is fairly complete. It will cover most scenarios. The problem is that a few lessons or a book will not give you a complete system. And another problem is that if a particular technique looks just like something in another system, then for some reason it is not Wing Chun. Insisting on remaining pure in a system first requires one to know the system in the first place. My father taught me. He did not know Ip Man. Probably never heard of him. Dad was teaching WC most all his life. He was 69 years old when he left Canton and 70 when he immagrated to the USA. What he taught was not what all these others were teaching apparently, because I have lots of clench fighting techniques. It is said we should use a persons strength against them, but that doesn't really make a lot of sense. It is much easier to use a persons weaknesses against them.

[chusauli]

***What do you think, Robert?

What I think is one needs to learn grappling/wrestling/BJJ/Sambo/Judo when you deal with situations like these. WCK, as a tool set, is inadequate for these scenarios. WCK can be used when out of these situations, but if you got into these situations with WCK, you're toast.

I was hoping you'd share your insights in catch wrestling with us.

[m1k3]

Realistically, there is no tapping out in a real fight. You die or you live, nothing more. If you let someone sink a choke deeply enough, you can't escape.


Sorry, but you are very simply wrong, and very wrong at that.

Based on the FBI statistics for 2008 the worst city for murder and non-negligent homicide was New Orleans. According to the FBI there were 547.2 aggravated assaults per hindered thousand population but only 63.6 murder and non-negligent manslaughter per hundred thousand.

So, 483.6 aggravated assaults did not end with someone dieing. :eek:

Somebody is watching way too much FOX news. :D

[anerlich]

The problem with these forum discussions is that most of the participants don't really know a great deal about what they are talking about.

Is there a mirror in your house?

[Knifefighter]

WCK people are known for their standing infighting

Actually, they aren't, other than among themselves.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Actually, they aren't, other than among themselves.

***Ha! Ha! ha! ;)

And as for my catch wrestling insights - I would say that forget your wing chun in the situations that were mentioned...and catch any hold you can !!!

While using wrestling escapes (and if there's some jiu jitsu escapes available - use them too).

And if some punching (wing chun or otherwise) can help with the escape, reversal, sweep, or controlling hold - then by all means.

But if all else fails - there's always the wing chun guillotine. :cool: :D

[Dave McKinnon]

Ha Ha Ha...

I have revised the Wing Chun Guillotine... Now it is the Wing Chun Cross face. A high percent WC technique. I will teach it to you for only 3000 dollars :P

BTW - look inside the YKS Chum Kiu for this technique!

LOL Dave :cool:

[bennyvt]

about the tap. I think he more means that once it is tight and locked it is your opponent that decides. I work security and have seen on many occassions people held to long. No most of them didn't die but we had some times when I took a while to wake up. Tapping doesn't stop the fight unless your opponents wants to stop. I know myself when I have to choke people I don't let go until they drop. You can't stop hen the guy taps and just keeps on fighting.

[m1k3]

Actually, they aren't, other than among themselves.

Quoted for truth.

Spend some time outside the wing chun forums and you will see the occasional chunner or school with some good rep but as for the style as a whole, well then the rep varies between yellow bamboo and slap boxing.

[monji112000]

***Ha! Ha! ha! ;)

And as for my catch wrestling insights - I would say that forget your wing chun in the situations that were mentioned...and catch any hold you can !!!

While using wrestling escapes (and if there's some jiu jitsu escapes available - use them too).

And if some punching (wing chun or otherwise) can help with the escape, reversal, sweep, or controlling hold - then by all means.

But if all else fails - there's always the wing chun guillotine. :cool: :D

well really wrestling has no major escapes, because you win with a pin so once you pin the match is normally over. thats why you see people do everything imaginable possible to not get pinned. The general escape is brige and twist like a maniac.
Maybe your talking about submission wrestling (no gi)? Ie BJJ without the gi ..

[Frost]

well really wrestling has no major escapes, because you win with a pin so once you pin the match is normally over. thats why you see people do everything imaginable possible to not get pinned. The general escape is brige and twist like a maniac.
Maybe your talking about submission wrestling (no gi)? Ie BJJ without the gi ..

cazn i just say thanks for those videos in your sig, brilliant!

[Ultimatewingchun]

"well really wrestling has no major escapes"...(except for submission wrestling)...???!!!

You've got to be kidding, right?

ALL WRESTLING has some great escapes, m1k3, especially amateur free style - which IS cacc - but without the submissions.

[Dragonzbane76]

well really wrestling has no major escapes, because you win with a pin so once you pin the match is normally over. thats why you see people do everything imaginable possible to not get pinned. The general escape is brige and twist like a maniac.
Maybe your talking about submission wrestling (no gi)? Ie BJJ without the gi ..

wrestling has many many escapes....

biggest problem with wrestling or mostly what i've learned over the years:
A wrestler will over extend himself. Doing this especially against submission (judo/BJJ/JJ) is a huge problem. Example: the shot, wrestler extends past leading with head. Neck is exposed leading for submission with guillotine or choke of numberous counts. But a wrestler with experience in grappling and well rounded does not get caught with this, usually it's the wrestler thats new to the submissions game that gets caught in this, but it's been know for experienced ones as well to get caught.

Wrestling is about dominant top position and movement. Key factors.

[Ultimatewingchun]

But as more free style wrestlers learn submissions - things should get very interesting.

[Knifefighter]

cazn i just say thanks for those videos in your sig, brilliant!

Now you can see why Victor can't tell the difference between moves that work and ones that don't.

[YungChun]

OT but..

To assume or suggest that in an assault one can or could simply "give up" and be left alone is terribly reckless reasoning and just plain stupid.

More likely depending on which hood you're in you would be beaten mercilessly long past unconsciousness and left for dead..

The loving street duel between "honorable combatants" may well happen outside in the alley behind the local pub.. It may even be the norm among Jerry Springer applicants and other juvenile minded folks.. But to assume or suggest such a thing is the norm or should be expected from one or more attackers on the street is to sell folks a large load of poop..

Better to assume the attacker or attackers will be operating in greater numbers, armed with weapons and with precious little concern for your life or theirs.

[SAAMAG]

So have you guys concluded that from a wing chun standpoint that there are no answers to those attacks? Or are you still deliberating on that one?

[Dragonzbane76]

he11 i thought we were debasing this thread into the usual drivel driven dead horse stuff. :) from what I gather to your question..

No....

[YungChun]

So have you guys concluded that from a wing chun standpoint that there are no answers to those attacks? Or are you still deliberating on that one?

Certain Chun attributes tactics may apply.. For example facing.. If you constantly work to face them, to issue force into their center and work to maintain your ability to attack can go a long way.. If you are constantly re-facing them they'll have a really hard time putting on a RNC.

There may well be ideas useful in the art for these things but in my understanding of the art it does not grapple.. And as such once you are grappling Chun can't defeat it since it doesn't grapple in the conventional sense. The idea is to unleash power and break structure so they don't have a chance to do their grappling..

In cases where folks must grapple it's best to train grappling--and train Chun against grapplers.

[bennyvt]

I think you are mistaking free style or college wrestling for catch wrestling. Think of all the different styles of wrestling, grecco, free-style, submissions etc. This is catch, you won by pin or submission. Hence they used to be called "hookers" as you hook the hold, "rippers" were the more dirty ones. Lots of neck cranks, arm bars, figure fours, leg/ankle/toe locks, throws, takedowns, boxing etc.
Story goes it started in england and was developed by people being taken on the navy ships and going to other countries, the wrestlers learnt different things and brought it back and mixed it all togeather. The strength and conditioning excerises are mainly indian based,ie sunasuns, twin mace etc. It also
It was taught to the japanese who mixed it with kickboxing and made shootfighting. Its alot more then just pinning a person.

[m1k3]

"well really wrestling has no major escapes"...(except for submission wrestling)...???!!!

You've got to be kidding, right?

ALL WRESTLING has some great escapes, m1k3, especially amateur free style - which IS cacc - but without the submissions.

:confused::confused::confused:

Uhhh, Victor, it wasn't me who said wrestling doesn't have escapes, great or otherwise. I was an amateur folkstyle wrestler in high school.

[monji112000]

"well really wrestling has no major escapes"...(except for submission wrestling)...???!!!

You've got to be kidding, right?

ALL WRESTLING has some great escapes, m1k3, especially amateur free style - which IS cacc - but without the submissions.

Ah my friend you have no idea again what your talking about again. :D I try to cross train with Greco, freestyle and Olympic (anyone who can show me anything). I don't do if often and I normally have to get the rules refreshed but pin normally equals a win. You don't escape from a pin if you have lost.. you start over or you get off the mat.
Even in Olympic Judo a pin for (I think 40 seconds?? don't remember) equal a win.
Judo has escapes because the pinned combatant has the chance to still fight once they are pinned (for a descent amount of time). That is why you will see many Judokas "stall" by just holding and pinning. The idea is normally in Olympic Judo you get the win or you get stood up if its not a clean pin.

Wrestling escape:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfBvTeQcP_A&feature=fvsr
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTWpPld4zLM

a wrestling "quick" pin wins:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wG7zCk8bGt8&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDigVAUaPpE&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFXb6K6F_4M&NR=1


again a short pin equals a win, so as the person pinning I need to use all my strength to pin and hold for a short time. The person being pinned whole job is to do everything outside of giving the guy a Blow job, to not get pinned.

I'm not saying wrestling sucks or that one idea is better than the other. They are two different skills, and two different sports. All sports will find that techniques and styles will be geared to the rules.

I'm no expert on wrestling, and I'm probably going to say something wrong about the rules.. but I have just a little more experience than you.

Again I love Catch, I have nothing against it at all.. I don't like Tony Cecchine.. he is a fraud and its a well known fact.

[Frost]

But as more free style wrestlers learn submissions - things should get very interesting.

you act like this is just about to happen....this has been going on for about 20 years already, look at matt hughes, koscheck, etc, hell look at coleman, kerr from years ago, the evolution has already happened and they didnt go to a catch school to learn they went to BJJ teachers get over it

[Frost]

Now you can see why Victor can't tell the difference between moves that work and ones that don't.

lol i cant believe he is a fan of that guy and spent so many years championing him, hes a joke and no wonder tony always cried off competing citing back injuries...he would have got eaten alive out there.

and yet still made money of people who should know better:eek:

[Knifefighter]

you act like this is just about to happen....this has been going on for about 20 years already, look at matt hughes, koscheck, etc, hell look at coleman, kerr from years ago, the evolution has already happened and they didnt go to a catch school to learn they went to BJJ teachers get over it

There's a reason so many competitive wrestlers transition to bjj or sub grappling and not catch.

[Frost]

There's a reason so many competitive wrestlers transition to bjj or sub grappling and not catch.

i know that, you know that, they know that, pretty much anyone who has competed knows that...but someone has a hard time understanding that and is still waiting for the revolution.....

[Ultimatewingchun]

I'm LONG done having to defend Tony Cecchine (or myself) - as regards cacc wrestling.

I know what I can do (and what I know)....and I know what Tony C's strengths and weaknesses are.

You guys are just NOT going to drag me into another one of these clown troll threads - no matter how much people like Robert Chu may have been hoping it would turn into that. Sorry.

I have numerous things to take care of at this point in my life - and horse5hit threads are just not part of the program.

I will leave you with one thought, however.

Josh Barnett thinks highly of Tony Cecchine's catch knowledge and skill - and has said so on a number of martial art forum chat rooms over the last 6-7 years.

Erik Paulson is also on record for the same thing.

Take it up with them.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Is there a mirror in your house?


And of course I could expect this comeback from you. I only see a hand full of people posting on these forums, so this is not a large enough cross section of people to really generate a reasonable concensus. Most of the people,(but not all) that post on the wc forum are wannabies, trying to hybridize it with boxing or some such.
I can count the regulars on one hand mostly, and on the other hand the simi regulars, so I am not really concerned with your opinions.

[anerlich]

I am not really concerned with your opinions.


Then there was no need for your reply.

[Dragonzbane76]

i know that, you know that, they know that, pretty much anyone who has competed knows that...but someone has a hard time understanding that and is still waiting for the revolution.....

revolution... heheh.... evolution!

some people are scared of change... plain and simple truth.

[chusauli]

I'm LONG done having to defend Tony Cecchine (or myself) - as regards cacc wrestling.

I know what I can do (and what I know)....and I know what Tony C's strengths and weaknesses are.

You guys are just NOT going to drag me into another one of these clown troll threads - no matter how much people like Robert Chu may have been hoping it would turn into that. Sorry.

I have numerous things to take care of at this point in my life - and horse5hit threads are just not part of the program.

I will leave you with one thought, however.

Josh Barnett thinks highly of Tony Cecchine's catch knowledge and skill - and has said so on a number of martial art forum chat rooms over the last 6-7 years.

Erik Paulson is also on record for the same thing.

Take it up with them.

No trolling - just seeing what fellow WCK people think of scenarios like this. I think one needs grappling knowledge in situations like these and its fairly easy to be caught in these.

[bennyvt]

I don't think its so easy to get into these postions unless you make a mistake or want to be there. We have seen people able to stuff takedowns etc, to stop getting into these positions.
I'm with alan using the catch/bjj

[chusauli]

I don't think its so easy to get into these postions unless you make a mistake or want to be there. We have seen people able to stuff takedowns etc, to stop getting into these positions.
I'm with alan using the catch/bjj


The grappler has to do his job, we have ours to do.

[Frost]

I don't think its so easy to get into these postions unless you make a mistake or want to be there. We have seen people able to stuff takedowns etc, to stop getting into these positions.
I'm with alan using the catch/bjj

in fact it is easy to get someone in those positions, most stand up fighters are easy to take down, especially those with forward momentum and an upright stance (like some wing chun schools)

the only guys that can really stop committed takedowns have studied wrestling or judo

[tigershorty]

now, i'm gonna put myself out there so don't lambast me too much, i've only heard this casually in passing and may have misunderstood it.

but wasn't it true that wing chun was typically taught later on in someone's martial art career if you believe it came from shaolin, or if actual soldiers/warriors used it in combat? (wing chun being used to enhance what they already knew and get people ready to fight quickly)

if this is correct, would it be safe to assume that wing chun assumes you already know how to deal with these things (or that it's not a huge risk due to the kind of fight)? maybe wing chun does have a ground game scenario, i haven't seen it as i'm a newer student. or maybe wing chun doesn't have an answer. if you're planning on getting into a ground fight or think it's a good chance for you, even if your wing chun has it, but it going to take too long to be shown it, wouldn't it be a good idea to go ahead and train somewhere that has the answers for that? it doesn't look too complicated to learn.

sorry, kinda rantish.

[couch]

I have an idea. Let's hop on over to the BJJ forums and ask them how they would deal with this, using their BJJ:

http://www.allauthentic.com/images/products/MW-16A1171152665.jpg

[Frost]

I have an idea. Let's hop on over to the BJJ forums and ask them how they would deal with this, using their BJJ:

http://www.allauthentic.com/images/products/MW-16A1171152665.jpg

cover crash in trip and comence beat down :)

or shock they would say learn boxing if you want to be well rounded :)

[Frost]

now, i'm gonna put myself out there so don't lambast me too much, i've only heard this casually in passing and may have misunderstood it.

but wasn't it true that wing chun was typically taught later on in someone's martial art career if you believe it came from shaolin, or if actual soldiers/warriors used it in combat? (wing chun being used to enhance what they already knew and get people ready to fight quickly)

if this is correct, would it be safe to assume that wing chun assumes you already know how to deal with these things (or that it's not a huge risk due to the kind of fight)? maybe wing chun does have a ground game scenario, i haven't seen it as i'm a newer student. or maybe wing chun doesn't have an answer. if you're planning on getting into a ground fight or think it's a good chance for you, even if your wing chun has it, but it going to take too long to be shown it, wouldn't it be a good idea to go ahead and train somewhere that has the answers for that? it doesn't look too complicated to learn.

sorry, kinda rantish.

some southern arts, noticablly the hakka ones where usually taught after you already had a base art (bak mei, SPM etc) never heard this about wing chun though

your suggestion is a very good one, times change, cultural norms change and people need to change with them .......however some people dont like to admit their style is lacking in a particular area and like to live in denial

[tigershorty]

it seemed to make sense when i heard it, since wing chun is all about efficiency. someone doing another martial art can instantly enhance theirs just by learning some of the core principals like center-line.

hell, if i had the sui nim tao concepts when i did karate, i would have considered the art entirely different and probably stuck with it. no diss to karate, tho.

oh well, doesn't mean anything as i can't prove wing chun was actually taught to people who already knew some level of martial arts, just a something i had heard.

I have noticed tho, that ground fights don't typically happen in MMA if 1 person doesn't want it to and has some standup skill. Is this generally agreed on or am I not watching enough fights?

[anerlich]

I have noticed tho, that ground fights don't typically happen in MMA if 1 person doesn't want it to and has some standup skill. Is this generally agreed on or am I not watching enough fights?

This is probably true of some MMA fighters who have not only decent standup skills but also decent takedown defense.

A person who has trained solely standup and has no experience with takedown defense is most unlikely to duplicate that feat.

A few years ago John Wayne Parr, arguably the best MT fighter Australia has produced, fought MMA against Tony Bonello, an Aussie MMA fighter with some skills but a highly dubious record. It was a very short fight, with Bonello winning quickly on the ground. Shortly thereafter, Bonello was totally outclassed from the word go in an MMA match with Ninja Rua.

[tigershorty]

thanks for the insight, anerlich.

[bennyvt]

yeh, normally you'd want some wrestling, takedown defence etc. Eventuallt if it goes long enough the chances of hitting the ground get higher. Best way to learn the defence is learn how to do takedowns, it heaps easier when you know how and what they will do next.

[Frost]

This is probably true of some MMA fighters who have not only decent standup skills but also decent takedown defense.

A person who has trained solely standup and has no experience with takedown defense is most unlikely to duplicate that feat.

A few years ago John Wayne Parr, arguably the best MT fighter Australia has produced, fought MMA against Tony Bonello, an Aussie MMA fighter with some skills but a highly dubious record. It was a very short fight, with Bonello winning quickly on the ground. Shortly thereafter, Bonello was totally outclassed from the word go in an MMA match with Ninja Rua.

what he said :)

people used to point to chuck liddel as an example of a striker able to keep it standing, until it was pointed out he was a former high school and college wrestler :)

[Ultimatewingchun]

As a wing chun guy - you don't.

Like Sherlock Holmes said to Doctor Watson about his fight with Moriarty at the Richenbach Falls...."I didn't get out of the Falls for the simple reason that I was never in it."

Sprawl and brawl.

End of thread...:cool:

[Dave McKinnon]

I agree with BennyVT

Learn it, love it, train it... Then you can defend better against it.

I was once invited to a Hung Kuen school and did some really fun sparring with them. I was surprised how many more of my techniques became applicable against them.

Wing Chun developed fighting other Southern martial arts. The theory and strategy are applicable everywhere but the techniques evolved for the environment.

Want to deal with boxers and grapplers learn the art or throw down or better yet do both.

BTW - it always surprises me when I see Kung Fu people demonstrating shooting defense/ grappling defense and the attacker has little or no skill and little or no setup for the attack.

Anyone disagree can you show videos?

Dave

[tigershorty]

i'd probably go to a grappling school if so many people didn't get ring worm, staph infection at those places, etc. nasty bidness.

you're right, tho dave- it's always better to have someone who specializes in the art trying to perform it to get the real scenario. and i agree about the half-ass attempts when people film stuff. even the over-committed punching ones. it's like someone doing a knife take away video and making some huge stabbing motion like theyre trying to go through armor.

[Frost]

[QUOTE=tigershorty;1028784]i'd probably go to a grappling school if so many people didn't get ring worm, staph infection at those places, etc. nasty bidness.
QUOTE]


Sorry but thats a p*ss poor excuse not to go and train at a gym, if you dont want to learn to grapple thats fine but dont hide behind fear of infection as a reason not to
ive been grappling week in week out for 7 years or so and never once seen a staph infection , and the guy had to stay away until it was healed....if the mats are kept clean and no shoes etc allowed on the mats its not that hard to avoid it

[Frost]

I agree with BennyVT

Learn it, love it, train it... Then you can defend better against it.

I was once invited to a Hung Kuen school and did some really fun sparring with them. I was surprised how many more of my techniques became applicable against them.

Wing Chun developed fighting other Southern martial arts. The theory and strategy are applicable everywhere but the techniques evolved for the environment.

Want to deal with boxers and grapplers learn the art or throw down or better yet do both.

BTW - it always surprises me when I see Kung Fu people demonstrating shooting defense/ grappling defense and the attacker has little or no skill and little or no setup for the attack.

Anyone disagree can you show videos?

Dave

its because they are too proud to admit there is a hole in their game, and would rather make up cr*ppy versions than go and study the real thing. You dont see grapplers pretending to know boxing, they admit to the holes in their skill set, its a shame the fighters of old went to different masters to learn new techniques and were open to change.....:(

[trubblman]

I ll bite: use wing chun in order to not get yourself placed in that position in the first place.

[tigershorty]

[QUOTE=tigershorty;1028784]i'd probably go to a grappling school if so many people didn't get ring worm, staph infection at those places, etc. nasty bidness.
QUOTE]


Sorry but thats a p*ss poor excuse not to go and train at a gym, if you dont want to learn to grapple thats fine but dont hide behind fear of infection as a reason not to
ive been grappling week in week out for 7 years or so and never once seen a staph infection , and the guy had to stay away until it was healed....if the mats are kept clean and no shoes etc allowed on the mats its not that hard to avoid it

ive actually known several people at several schools here to get the things i mentioned from their grappling gyms. (this is why i don't go) staph infection is never healed by the way, and it's always contagious. it's not a big deal, im not worried about grappling, it would be fun, but i'm a hobbist when it comes to martial arts, not a professional. admittedly, i'm a bit of a germ-a-phobe, so take what i say for just my personal issue. maybe their mats and school sanitation was bad, one was AZ Combat Sport, which is a pretty large school for MMA nationally, i think. 2 of my friends got MRSA there. It's whatever. They train ****ing hard, they bleed, and sweat. It's the real deal. I'm not putting it down. It's just not as clean as I think most people would like to believe it is. They'd woop my ass, tho.

[Frost]

Not a wing chun guy. I assume you mean in a street fight other wise bye now one would prepare for tournament that allow those types of maneuvers. I will give it a go scream for help, eye gouge, bite, groin strike, Small joint manipulation bend fingers and toes, Head butt.
Techniques that require small effort with maximum damage. Or maybe the wc guy would do what's on the link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-Hn_Y86CEk

i love now these clips are always demod on guys who have no clue about grappling :) his take down was sloppy, he made no attempt to pass the legs on the way down or control them on the ground. he neither went into safety position in the guard or attempted any kind of pass and he had no base on the ground what so ever...he just sat there and let the guy kick and punch him :rolleyes:

And the title says wing chun for MMA, in almost all comps you cant kick an opponent who is on his knees so post of that stuff is out, for self defence it was okish but it would be nice to see it demoed against someone with a clue about ground fighting and see what he would do against someone controlling his legs and passing guard...my guess is he would get f*cked up pretty badly

[Frost]

[QUOTE=Frost;1028785]

ive actually known several people at several schools here to get the things i mentioned from their grappling gyms. (this is why i don't go) staph infection is never healed by the way, and it's always contagious. it's not a big deal, im not worried about grappling, it would be fun, but i'm a hobbist when it comes to martial arts, not a professional. admittedly, i'm a bit of a germ-a-phobe, so take what i say for just my personal issue. maybe their mats and school sanitation was bad, one was AZ Combat Sport, which is a pretty large school for MMA nationally, i think. 2 of my friends got MRSA there. It's whatever. They train ****ing hard, they bleed, and sweat. It's the real deal. I'm not putting it down. It's just not as clean as I think most people would like to believe it is. They'd woop my ass, tho.

the gym i train at produced 3 current UFC fighters, and its where 4 other TUF competitors have trained. It competes in all the major grappling tournys here in the UK, so they train hard and are the real deal to, and yet the coachs keep it clean and we have had no problems, if you are not interested in grappling thats fine but if you are dont let this put you off, find a good clean school and you will be fine

[Dragonzbane76]

the gym i train at produced 3 current UFC fighters, and its where 4 other TUF competitors have trained. It competes in all the major grappling tournys here in the UK, so they train hard and are the real deal to, and yet the coachs keep it clean and we have had no problems, if you are not interested in grappling thats fine but if you are dont let this put you off, find a good clean school and you will be fine

bleach the mats at the end of class and you'll be fine. I personally wear a rash guard and smear the antibacterial stuff all over any exposed areas.