Belt ranks in Kung Fu, are they needed? [Archive]

MasterKiller

07-22-2010, 06:20 AM

run a shop? yes, have them they are useful milestones and help to organize curriculum.

run a private session group? they are not necessary.

I find that schools need them. you have a lot of people that if they don't have a focus and a goal that is cultural contextual then it can become chaos and difficult to deal with.

I run a sport school, but not everyone competes. So, essentially, unless they are focused on the training or some fitness goal, a lot of them tend to lose interest after a month or two because they aren't working toward anything in particular.

In that regard, I think a ranking system helps traditional schools keep students focused by providing achievable goals, which in turn keeps them interested in training.

David Jamieson

07-22-2010, 06:24 AM

I run a sport school, but not everyone competes. So, essentially, unless they are focused on the training or some fitness goal, a lot of them tend to lose interest after a month or two because they aren't working toward anything in particular.

In that regard, I think a ranking system helps traditional schools keep students focused by providing achievable goals, which in turn keeps them interested in training.

It's a good point.

No goals = loss of interest

something as simple as a piece of cloth and the requirements for getting it can really spur a person on.

even though you have a sport school, you can separate your fight team from the regular t-shirt seekers and give them goals through textile awards!

Lot's of people identify with status markers. Belts serve as that too.

If you use maintenance programs, you can always have people struggle to maintain rank like hardcore japanese schools do. lol

you could always go with the nascar approach and give people those badges to sew all over their stuff. lol The nascar Gi rules!

sha0lin1

07-22-2010, 06:25 AM

Good question, I have been kicking this one around for a while. I remember in my karate days, I did enjoy receiving my next belt. It made you feel good, gave you a goal to shoot for and stroked your ego. That being said, judging from the prices that a lot of schools are charging to test for your next belt/sash, and seeing the way some schools award belts/sashes to people that don't deserve or earn them, it is just a way for most places to make more money. At the last school I attended years back, I was testing for my brown belt, the lower belts had to go first. I saw some **** poor examples of kung fu, even people who had forgotten part of their forms or froze in the middle and still they passed.

In its simplest forms the only way a school can make money is through it's monthly tuition. Schools have taken this to new heights now adays with belt tests, charging extra fees to learn more material, like black sash clubs or master paths. Some of the fees charged are really exhorbitant. It has really gotten out of hand. Frankly, I am amazed that people can even afford to attend some of these schools. Now I am not saying that all schools that do this are bad in anyway, there are a lot of schools out there that do charge fair prices but I believe that the bottom line of this question lies in the revenue stream.

Iron_Eagle_76

07-22-2010, 06:29 AM

I do believe a goal to work towards is a positive factor concerning belts. I know when I tested under my Sifu the tests were a rigorous ordeal of everything you had learned up to that point, as well as hard sparring with all classmates, instructors, and anyone else pretty much invited to the test, which usually consisted of black belts from other systems. If you passed, you certainly had a sense of pride and accomplishment, that you had "earned" you rank. This can go a long way in developing one's martial arts.

hskwarrior

07-22-2010, 06:54 AM

my personal opinion is NO! belts have no place in gung fu. but, commercialism calls right???? i do certificates if they really want....a ranking system was never employed at all in my teachers school.

zhugeliang

07-22-2010, 06:56 AM

bawang

07-22-2010, 06:57 AM

ming army sparring ranking system: win a fight promote one level. lose a fight demote one level. lose five or more in a row beat with stick and expel
we shud use that one

sanjuro_ronin

07-22-2010, 07:00 AM

If the belt systems MEANS something then it is useful.
Belts for the sake of belts is pointless.

goju

07-22-2010, 07:02 AM

ming army sparring ranking system: win a fight promote one level. lose a fight demote one level. lose five or more in a row beat with stick and expel
we shud use that one

what he said

Iron_Eagle_76

07-22-2010, 07:03 AM

The belt system is idiotic and loathsome. You're just buying belts. I go to a wushu school in Houston, no belt system there, the motivation lies in how far you want to go in wushu, not by what color you want your belt.

The thing is there are systems where you are not just "buying" your belt. Believe it or not, some schools that use the belt system don't even charge for the test or the belt, maybe for the price of the sash (Gene sells them for like 7 bucks. :D) The point is, if the ranking system is done correctly, fairly, and with an intent on the person earning it and giving them a goal to continue to develop their skills, it can be useful.

goju

07-22-2010, 07:10 AM

your reward for the years of training are the skills that you can preform not a piece of cloth you can tie around your waist.

I never saw the point of belts i think they are an entirely trivial concept

hskwarrior

07-22-2010, 07:19 AM

If the belt systems MEANS something then it is useful.

it is ONLY useful for the commercial school to keep students. I've known 3rd degree blackbelts who were holy terrors in the studio. but out on the street they freeze, crumble, stutter, and lose all focus when confronted in the street. i've witnessed this and was left disappointed.

i hate belt ranks, especially when for the right price my 12 year old nephew can become a black belt.

SPJ

07-22-2010, 07:20 AM

This question goes out to the TCMA's here who train in a system of Kung Fu that maintains a belt/sash ranking system. In your opinion, do you believe it is necessary to have this system in your style. Traditionally speaking they did not and most of us know belt ranks were for the most part an Americanized standard, but please give your opinions on why or why not they are needed. Thanks.:)

these are arbitary "standards".

usually, we have basic/beginner/foundation, intermediate, and advance.

how to define the 3 levels depending on the style and teacher.

1. foundation level, they are not to be mistaken for "easy".

from day 1 to day whenever, everyone has to practice. it is your root.

2. intermediate, based on level 1 with some specialization

3. advance, specialization for fewer themes.

in ba ji;

1. xiao jia

2. da jia

3. lian huan

etc

SPJ

07-22-2010, 07:24 AM

white, yellow and black belts

they ususally are connected with your sparring system

1 if you use some basic moves well and fight with them,

you advance.

2 if you use some intermediate moves and spar

3. if you use some advance moves and spar well

there are also oral exams and written tests on understanding of theories and practice

sometimes black belt needs to write a proposal, research and thesis.

again depending on your school and teacher.

SPJ

07-22-2010, 07:32 AM

the sparring exam/contest

you are required to do at least one of the moves from your level and successfully defeat your opponent.

unfourtunately

in wushu performance circle

you are only required to do these moves in your routine. no worry in using it successfully or not.

there are duan systems in long fist and other wushu routines.

---

SPJ

07-22-2010, 07:36 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20STXG_mg10

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeOtlFv3lDk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtQvPDHTlI8

-----

GeneChing

07-22-2010, 09:49 AM

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At the school where I currently train, O-Mei Kung Fu (http://www.usaomei.com/), we have a sash system for the kids. The adults in our Shaolin class, our kickboxing class and our tai chi class do not do belts. I only earned two belts in my life: a yellow belt in judo when I was 8 and a kyu ranking (not quite a belt) in kendo. The PRC has the duan system, but I don't participate in that.

Dragonzbane76

07-22-2010, 10:11 AM

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GeneChing

07-22-2010, 10:14 AM

Iron_Eagle_76

07-22-2010, 10:21 AM

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Lucas

07-22-2010, 10:22 AM

In your opinion, do you believe it is necessary to have this system in your style?

No.

Can they be useful under the correct setting? Yes.

I guess im kind of an ass because i dont buy the motivation excuse. not for adults. I'm of the opinion that if someone cannot motivate themselves to attain skill, thats their problem. Maybe they need to mature, or maybe they arent as passionate as they thought they were or wanted to be. I mean we are martial artists. The only motivation you really need is knowing someone could beat your ass unless you train hard and constantly improve.

I have nothing against the use of the belt rank systems that many styles use. If thats part of your tradition, thats cool.

Kids definately need tangible rewards, I think if you have a kids program, belts are a good idea.

lkfmdc

07-22-2010, 10:28 AM

We don't actually wear belts (or sashes) but we have a "belt system"

I avoided it for YEARS, obviously had experienced it a lot doing Korean and Japanese systems for years... but ultimately I came to the conclusion that some sort of ordering system AND reward and/or goal system is important

My school is set up with 101, 202 and 303 classes

Everyone starts in 101 : warm up, footwork, stance, basic punches kicks knees, elbows, etc hitting focus mitts, kicking shields, physical conditioning

EVERYONE needs to do that stuff, and it works as a great fitness program. I routinely have 35 to 45 people PER CLASS

For people who want to do the "martial art" of it, 101 is like "white belt"

202 is the contact work, boxing drills, kickboxing drills, clinching, wrestling... you want to get in shape but don't want contact DO NOT DO 202

For everyone else, this is basic stuff, it is like "green belt"

Now, you want to be serious? Well, then we have a test, show us all the 101 and 202 stuff, pass the test, go to 303 which includes the hard sparring, the advanced stuff, etc, to us that is "blue belt"

IN the past 4 years I have als begun to recognize my long time seniors and those dedicated to the school with "black belts"

Means nothing to me, but I can tell you, to those guys who have been with the school a long time, it meant something indeed

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs124.snc1/5332_1023201840816_1848336234_48035_4577975_n.jpg

Iron_Eagle_76

07-22-2010, 10:30 AM

No.

Can they be useful under the correct setting? Yes.

I guess im kind of an ass because i dont buy the motivation excuse. not for adults. I'm of the opinion that if someone cannot motivate themselves to attain skill, thats their problem. Maybe they need to mature, or maybe they arent as passionate as they thought they were or wanted to be. I mean we are martial artists. The only motivation you really need is knowing someone could beat your ass unless you train hard and constantly improve.

I have nothing against the use of the belt rank systems that many styles use. If thats part of your tradition, thats cool.

Kids definately need tangible rewards, I think if you have a kids program, belts are a good idea.

I agree that it is kind of sad to use a belt as motivation for an adult, but sometimes it does pay off and a student uses this tangible albeit meaningless thing to motivate themselves in to working toward an ultimate goal, which should really be nothing more than being as good at your chosen system as you continuing to develop one's skills.

Often you hear arguments about combat sports such as boxing and Muay Thai not using rank, but you also have BJJ and Judo which both use rank through competition. I don't think one should necessarily have to compete to earn rank, however, a solid test that involves everything you have learned up to that point and hard contact sparring is a must if you are going to implement a rank system.

bawang

07-22-2010, 10:43 AM

i think no for cultural reasons

Dragonzbane76

07-22-2010, 02:20 PM

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David Jamieson

07-22-2010, 03:15 PM

yeah, kind of hard to spam your self really. :p

belts -

there's a lot of ways to go. I think, and correct me if Im wrong, but a lot fo kungfu schools go with 5 generally. (5 elements/ 5 as a prime/ 5 as a cosmic number/etcetera)

usually : white/gold/green/red/black then instructor and often with certificates as well.

some places break down the minutia even more and start adding levels to the colours or stripes on the belts to denote that and so on.

There's also the 3 level approach novice/student/master

or the filial approach student/elder student/teacher-father and all the uncles and grandparents and cousins on the side

They are similar to military rankings or religious rankings. they represent our need to put things into heirarchies and lend solemnity to practice and put a serious tone to the efforts at hand.

Ultimately, it would be nice if everyone had their crap together and knew what progression was and how to see it and feel it, but alas... this is not true for the greater part although oddly enough, I believe we each and all recognize this aspect of humanity (diligent perseverance and dedication to an artform). We recognize the value of it and we actively seek to connect to and identify with things, people and organizations in this construct.

unless you are some freak job monk of course who sees and hears what is. lol

anyway, belts and sashes? I'm for them. Embrace it for what it is. If you need it as a learning tool or to keep your school's bills paid, it is a simple and effective method to employ.

so long as you demonstrably know what you say you know, it's all good. :-)

Yum Cha

07-22-2010, 04:48 PM

Motivation?

Sifu is not here to motivate you, sifu is here if you are motivated.

Better to go away sooner than later, less wasted time on a lost cause.

Its nice being non-commercial. Everybody is motivated, or somewhere else, out of the way.

Iron_Lung

07-23-2010, 02:37 PM

My Sifu has a sash system in place however was not taught with one. The reason he has one in place now is because he designed the curriculum with a natural progression in mind. I agree with this because previously our style was taught "chop suey" and he wanted there to be a logical learning process beginning with the foundational stuff and then getting on to advanced material once you have mastered the basics. However, the sashes have no real importance.

Yum Cha

07-23-2010, 03:56 PM

Everybody knows who is better at what, belts don't do anything but reinforce a false hierarchy, or an obvious one, either way.

Personally, I think you don't need additional benchmarks, there are enough milestones already, forms, number of combinations and skill at execution, fighting skill, mental attitude... The natural order of things is best left to find its own course.

Also, belts indicate a one size fits all standard. I disagree with that, as each student has different talents and weaknesses, and each has to be addressed in its own time.

Belts certainly change the way people train, the question is, to what end? How does it change ones participation?

Don't mean to sound too critical, its a cultural thing to each art and school, and I accept that, fair enough. Just not my preferred culture.

My culture is that if you aren't internally motivated, if you don't make it your own and take responsibility for your training, you might as well stay home. In a complex art like mine, if you don't have this character, you are probably better off elsewhere. This is a cornerstone to our teaching, you can see how it goes contrary to the belt system.

jdhowland

07-23-2010, 05:00 PM

Our school uses them but we don't put much emphasis on them until the student has been around long enough to understand the symbolism. Our color scheme goes back at least three generations but I have seen no evidence that it existed before the early 20th century. Traditionally our type of yiu dai should be at least 14' long and we can't get them from Hong Kong anymore so we have to make our own. I don't like to have younger students wear them because it might inhibit proper breathing if they aren't worn correctly. Their use as trusses is more important for older students as the exercises become more intense. I do recall reading, though, that Lau Fat Man made his daughters wear them from a very early age so that their bodies would adapt to the pressure as they grew.

Our color system is supposed to represent different stages and different areas of training, but in practice my teachers seemed to treat them as an ordinary hierarchy and the initiatory experience wasn't really emphasized. You put in a few years and you might wear a different color. I don't think this was the original intent, but it's okay.

The hierarchy is based on the color scheme of the wheel of dharma and one progresses through the six stages from black to white while being constantly reminded of the qualities/hindrances that are to be sought and overcome at each stage. The complete hierarchy runs like this: 1. black, 2. red, 3. green, 4. yellow, 5. blue, 6. white. My first teacher dropped green to make a 5-color system. My second teacher switched black to the last color for his own reasons.

For celebrations, everybody wears red. For funerals/memorials everyone wears white (this hasn't happened yet in our school). The belts go over the trousers, not over the jacket. These help to subdue the percieved importance of the colors as signs of rank.

bawang

07-23-2010, 05:23 PM

if someone needs belts to stay in ur school it means he doesnt really have any respect for your school or you or what u teach. hes only staying because of the carrot on a stick. i think its a lack of understanding chinese culture.

also i think its because the kung fu fad is over and schools are desperate for students

SevenStar

07-23-2010, 06:21 PM

SevenStar

07-23-2010, 06:22 PM

SevenStar

07-23-2010, 06:29 PM

Everybody knows who is better at what, belts don't do anything but reinforce a false hierarchy, or an obvious one, either way.

Personally, I think you don't need additional benchmarks, there are enough milestones already, forms, number of combinations and skill at execution, fighting skill, mental attitude... The natural order of things is best left to find its own course.

a style like shuai chiao or a pure san shou school will have no forms, no set combos to learn, no one and three step sparring, etc. Plus, the ranks give spectators and newcomers an idea of who to be watching to see what the advanced skills should look like. Otherwise, they have to watch and try to figure it out.

Also, belts indicate a one size fits all standard. I disagree with that, as each student has different talents and weaknesses, and each has to be addressed in its own time.

no it doesn't. in the old days of my long fist school, tests were individual. He based your test on your own strengths and weaknesses. No two students took the same test.

My culture is that if you aren't internally motivated, if you don't make it your own and take responsibility for your training, you might as well stay home. In a complex art like mine, if you don't have this character, you are probably better off elsewhere. This is a cornerstone to our teaching, you can see how it goes contrary to the belt system.

bjj is as complicated a system as any. Not sure what bearing that has on the necessity (or lack thereof) of belt ranks.

HumbleWCGuy

07-23-2010, 06:43 PM

This question goes out to the TCMA's here who train in a system of Kung Fu that maintains a belt/sash ranking system. In your opinion, do you believe it is necessary to have this system in your style. Traditionally speaking they did not and most of us know belt ranks were for the most part an Americanized standard, but please give your opinions on why or why not they are needed. Thanks.:)

The ultimate goal is to become a sifu/expert. Most psychologist will tell you that it is best to break a long-term goal into a number of short-term milestones. You have to keep in mind that students come into a school or a backyard of a sifu to train and they may or may not have any understanding about training, goal setting, or life in general. A sifu is there to help guide them along the path of life in a number of respects. No I am not saying to set one's self up like some sort of object of worship like an old kung fu movie. However, kung fu might be a person's first experience with setting long term goals, working, etc. etc. Even if they are adults. We need to help the along the way.

bawang

07-23-2010, 06:52 PM

the western culture like rewards.

this has nothing to do rewards. this is using carrot on a stick trick because your student doesnt really like what ur teaching. their kung fu movie fantasies arent being fulfilled and they start to lose interest. students also want to leave because theyre neglected. belts take the attention away from what the student is actually learning and become the main focus. it adds a lot of ego.

if ur students like reward so much instead of belts why not reward them a different colored buttplug after each testing. seniors get the supreme black buttplug of almightiness.

Yum Cha

07-23-2010, 08:26 PM

Hi Seven, nice to have you back around.

a style like shuai chiao or a pure san shou school will have no forms, no set combos to learn, no one and three step sparring, etc. Plus, the ranks give spectators and newcomers an idea of who to be watching to see what the advanced skills should look like. Otherwise, they have to watch and try to figure it out.

And the problem is? Everybody that needs to know, knows. If all you do is spar and the like, its even more obvious - the rest is pride? Recognition? Reward?

Most importantly, belts put the natural order out of order. 13 year old blackbelts, hard men with yellow belts, you know what I mean.

In an unfamiliar environment, I can see belts being a clue to seniors as to how to deal with people, but in your own school, naaa.

no it doesn't. in the old days of my long fist school, tests were individual. He based your test on your own strengths and weaknesses. No two students took the same test.

bjj is as complicated a system as any. Not sure what bearing that has on the necessity (or lack thereof) of belt ranks.

With all respect, BBJ for all its creativity, isn't as complex as a system as others. What makes it so complex (from my poor ignorant perspective) is the innovation and creativity the practitioner puts into working and transitioning the fundamental moves. Its like golf. Simple, hit the ball straight, into the cup.... So simple it should be dead easy......NOT.

Hope I don't cop it from all the Golfers for that...GOLF PAI Jihad!

SevenStar

07-24-2010, 08:15 AM

Most importantly, belts put the natural order out of order. 13 year old blackbelts, hard men with yellow belts, you know what I mean.

Not in all schools. In the schools I have been involved with, kids could not be black belts. In my original muay thai school (which also taught JKD, kali and WC) you had to be at least 16 to train. At my long fist school, children under 13 are placed in a "little warriors" class. at 14 they may join the adults. No black sashes are awarded under age 17. My judo classes run the same way. you must be 8 to begin training. There is a minimum age for black belt testing. I have to look up what it is.

With all respect, BBJ for all its creativity, isn't as complex as a system as others. What makes it so complex (from my poor ignorant perspective) is the innovation and creativity the practitioner puts into working and transitioning the fundamental moves. Its like golf. Simple, hit the ball straight, into the cup.... So simple it should be dead easy......NOT.

Hope I don't cop it from all the Golfers for that...GOLF PAI Jihad!

there is a lot more than that which makes it complicated.

jdhowland

07-24-2010, 09:01 AM

this has nothing to do rewards. this is using carrot on a stick trick because your student doesnt really like what ur teaching. their kung fu movie fantasies arent being fulfilled and they start to lose interest. students also want to leave because theyre neglected. belts take the attention away from what the student is actually learning and become the main focus. it adds a lot of ego. (italics mine)jh

This is a good observation. It especially applies to commercial schools that need to keep up membership to pay the bills. I've seen it lead to ego problems in some schools....arrogance and jealousy. But only for those students to whom arrogance and jealousy were already present. A good teacher can either tolerate it or deal with it.

The advantage of the non-commercial school is that you get to pick the students. I recommend the local eclectic karate school to anyone who asks me about belts or trophies. Our school is only for training and I've never made a dime in thirty years of teaching. There are no "belt tests." There are no "promotions." Just different sashes for different courses of study. My students stay because they like the training.

If I did not grow up in the tradition I would not use colored belts. As bawang notes there is a risk that they serve only as distractions. But I am happy to say that I have not observed it here. Our belt system was developed decades before the western "kung fu fad." It is hard to tell whether it was intended to cause incentive, or as we were told, just a little traditional dharma passed on to keep the tradition alive, (and to create the impression that our teachings are somehow different from "most schools"). That sort of pride is amusing but harmless and I don't mind it at all.

We also teach Choy Lei Fat at our school which is not part of the Lama lineage and has no universal rank system. I thought about applying the idea of grades to it as well. But, nah. It is already a good system. Why embellish it with baubles? Enough is enough.

bawang

07-24-2010, 09:18 AM

i find using modern japanese custom in chinese kung fu offensive. i think its vain

Dragonzbane76

07-24-2010, 09:25 AM

Not in all schools. In the schools I have been involved with, kids could not be black belts. In my original muay thai school (which also taught JKD, kali and WC) you had to be at least 16 to train. At my long fist school, children under 13 are placed in a "little warriors" class. at 14 they may join the adults. No black sashes are awarded under age 17. My judo classes run the same way. you must be 8 to begin training. There is a minimum age for black belt testing. I have to look up what it is.

was the same in our school. And when I had my own, we wouldn't take anyone under 13. the younger ones usually had a mid level instruct in basics, and we hardly ever tested kids until they had been there for a couple years.

there is a lot more than that which makes it complicated.

agree 100%.

jdhowland

07-24-2010, 10:29 AM

i find using modern japanese custom in chinese kung fu offensive. i think its vain

I think it is inappropriate but people will do whatever they want.

The whole belt rank thing in Japan is only a century old and only applies to modern budo, not to traditional martial arts. The bushi class never used anything like it. But the idea for the ranks came right out of the Chinese military and civil service grades of the Qing dynasty. The 9 dan (10th was honorary, for dead people) were copied from the Chinese tradition of 9 ranks and were applied in Japan first to ranking in Chinese "chess" competitions. Kano's application of the kyu-dan system comes directly from neo-confucian values. Even the white=purity, black=humility is arguably Chinese. So how Japanese is it?

bawang

07-24-2010, 10:41 AM

chinese chess players wear black belts??

ming army ranked through sparring and active promotion/demotion. failure in sparring results in flogging and expulsion. failure in firearm testing results in execution.
qing war scholar exams ranked 3 levels based on WEIGHT LIFTING up to 500 pounds. giving someone a belt for learning a form is rediculous

civilian school ranks the top fighter as "big brother". some used mongolian animal ranking.

japan belts barely resembles military ranking. ming ranking uses level A,B,c, sublevels 1,2,3.
top fighter is A1 worst fighter is C3.

formal traditional testing method is well known. but kung fu people dont hae the balls the adopt it. because most sifus themselves would fail

Lucas

07-24-2010, 10:48 AM

reward them a different colored buttplug after each testing. Seniors get the supreme black buttplug of almightiness.

lol!!!!!!!!!

jdhowland

07-24-2010, 11:05 AM

chinese chess players wear black belts??

Nah, you know what I mean. Japanese chess players had dan ranks. The belt thang came later.

And there were nine ranks within the Qing government. Military "tests" confirmed ability, not rank. Which may be your point.

bawang

07-24-2010, 11:19 AM

Military "tests" confirmed ability, not rank. Which may be your point.

military exams confirmed rank. lifting stone barbell of 180 pounds = level 1. lifting 120 pounds = level 3. level 1 receives a higher rank.

in ming army A1 becomes platoon elder. A2 and below become squad elder. level Bs become auxilary support. C3 become logistics(cooks food and carries away buckets of feces, sometimes is the butt wife)

kung fu ranking today should be based on ability not on time and money investe

Lucas

07-24-2010, 11:28 AM

kung fu ranking today should be based on ability not on time and money invested

that would fix a lot of problems

bawang

07-24-2010, 11:33 AM

using belts is obviously playing into the ignorance of average americans. belts = cool. black belt = badass
instead of trying to justifying it ppl should take a good look at themselves. does muay thai need belts? does wrestling need belts?

taai gihk yahn

07-24-2010, 11:47 AM

I only earned two belts in my life: a yellow belt in judo when I was 8
"I thank fu(king Jesus and all his disciples that I will not be the victim of ur 8 y/o judo rage" (adapted from MMA utube cip, lol)

Sifu is not here to motivate you, sifu is here if you are motivated.
yes - this, to me, is ultimately where it's at: to wit, I have not trained in a school with ranking for over 20 years, and I don't miss it at all; actually, my taiji sifu had a "black belt" test once, about 12 years ago - it was for 8 or so students who had been with him about 8-15 (or more) years, had been through his 4-year teacher training seminar (which he did only once as well - that's his m.o. - he does something when the time is opportune, but he may never do it again!); it was an all-day test, and involved written, demonstration, oral quizzing - pretty intense actually (and the emphasis was healing-based, not martial, but still...); I had just started with him for ~2 years but was acting as his "attendant" for the day; in his estimation, "black" belt represented the attainment of the first of five levels - the first level is "well done" as in cooked through, as in ready for refinement; the next 3 represent further levels of refinement, the last represents "noumena"; well, he hasn't had another test since; actually, I remember one guy, who was in fact "senior" to most of the others there, started the written test, and was like, "I am not prepared for this" (I guess he kinda didn't get the point about self-motivation), and sifu was like, "well, then you should leave", which he did without another word (actually, sifu remarked later how impressed he was by the way in which the guy was forthright and the attitude of equanimity he displayed when leaving...)
anyway, just sayin'...

the western culture like rewards.
I think so-called "eastern" culture likes rewards as well, just in a different manner, perhaps?

ming army ranked through sparring and active promotion/demotion. failure in sparring results in flogging and expulsion. failure in firearm testing results in execution.
awesome! I vote for wholesale adoption in all US Kem/npo schools immediately, since they r so ready to hype themselves as ultra-traditional!

thelegend731

07-24-2010, 03:03 PM

Yum Cha

07-24-2010, 03:15 PM

I think it's a mental thing. The belt represents something different for different users.

Some people take great pride in their rank. Some could care less. The belt is ultimately symbol. It's what you make out of it. Maybe some people could consider it as a mark of personal achievement and pride not unlike a national flag, also a piece of cloth.

It's how your mind relates to it that really matters. It could be a great asset to you or simply nothing.

What do you think?

For a first post, you need work. Focus on making the point, perhaps add some insight, and avoid all the conditional tense - Of course one can do whatever one wants to, that's not the point. A belt COULD be a plate of Steaming Cheese Nachos too, if you were perverted enough to take it there...wrapped around your waist, dripping down into your Iron Gear gear....

Refine the directness of your posting, keep practising, and with 10 more good posts, you will probably be able to achieve white belt in the forum posting stakes.
Keep up the good work...

Yum Cha

07-24-2010, 03:19 PM

Oh yea, just to clarify, here in the main forum, it only takes 10 posts, in the Southern Forum, it takes 100. I'm sure you understand, we're not quite as efficient at training as here in the main forum.

Dragonzbane76

07-24-2010, 10:48 PM

instead of trying to justifying it ppl should take a good look at themselves. does muay thai need belts? does wrestling need belts?

bawang... if there was a master of such things as HW8 says there is I would claim you as such. In the clamor you spout, many jewels are to be found. ;) ( seriously sometimes you amaze me with the things you say)

mickey

07-25-2010, 07:32 AM

Greetings,

Rank should represent the combination of three things: dedication, responsibility and ability. If we were to follow that there would be no ranking system below black sash/belt. If I was to be a little flexible on this it would be white belt, brown belt, black belt.

If your school's culture upholds and reinforces the aforementioned attributes, rank becomes meaningless. Though it can be hard on the money making aspect, this hardcore approach attracts people that will stay for the long haul, through thick and thin.

mickey

YouKnowWho

07-25-2010, 03:25 PM

thelegend731

07-26-2010, 03:08 PM

For a first post, you need work. Focus on making the point, perhaps add some insight, and avoid all the conditional tense - Of course one can do whatever one wants to, that's not the point. A belt COULD be a plate of Steaming Cheese Nachos too, if you were perverted enough to take it there...wrapped around your waist, dripping down into your Iron Gear gear....

Refine the directness of your posting, keep practising, and with 10 more good posts, you will probably be able to achieve white belt in the forum posting stakes.
Keep up the good work...

Way to shut me down lol..

I thought I was making a point, and I thought I was adding some insight. I wouldn't have posted otherwise. You could have just messaged me instead of posting something irrelevant to the post.

But to add a relevant point which Yum Cha (with all due respect) has seemed to forgotten. Certain martial arts masters give belts with a deep sense of honor. There are those martial arts who have thorough belt ceremonies and each rank upward signifies a deeper meaning not unlike a ritual of manhood. Some places award belts for money, but some other places will never award you with a Black belt regardless of your level of physical skill. Of course quality control could be an adequate, yet superficial method of using belts. But I would like to view the giving of belts as a way to showcase the "art" in the martial arts and the depth that it could entail.

That's another 2 cents.

Yum Cha

07-26-2010, 08:19 PM

Way to shut me down lol..

Way to come back....:D

I thought I was making a point, and I thought I was adding some insight. I wouldn't have posted otherwise. You could have just messaged me instead of posting something irrelevant to the post.

Sorry. Its just that you had the fence wedged so deeply in your backside, there wasn't much else to say. You believe, or you don't believe - or you are curious and want to know more. To say I disagree with people about belt policy, within a little creative licence, isn't disrespect or denigration, only me putting my thoughts forward with some creative conviction.

But to add a relevant point which Yum Cha (with all due respect) has seemed to forgotten. Certain martial arts masters give belts with a deep sense of honor. There are those martial arts who have thorough belt ceremonies and each rank upward signifies a deeper meaning not unlike a ritual of manhood. Some places award belts for money, but some other places will never award you with a Black belt regardless of your level of physical skill. Of course quality control could be an adequate, yet superficial method of using belts. But I would like to view the giving of belts as a way to showcase the "art" in the martial arts and the depth that it could entail.

That's another 2 cents.

Honour, yes, indeed. Ceremonies, rites of passage. They take many forms other than belts, you'll agree. Bai See, inner circle, tournament champion - there are many ways to 'get the nod'.

thelegend731

07-27-2010, 04:16 AM

Now I'm obligated to post back. Let's be a little more courteous shall we?

Just a random thought: do the number of belts matter? I personally think the less the better to add more depth and meaning behind each belt

brothernumber9

07-27-2010, 05:53 AM

Where I train, we have had at times, a good number of students. Different colored belts/sashes give an immediate indication to Sifu or the instructors as to what the student is working on. In short, it helps keep track of each student's progress so they don't so easily get lost in the shuffle or taught the same thing ad nauseum. However, rank in the school I train is not as clearly identified with whatever color sash one wears. I know someone who has been with the school for a fair number of years but only knows several sets, has always worn the same colored sash since the day he joined (red), but holds rank over most of the other classmates that have learned alot more sets. Fundamental skills, knowledge, and fighting skill, will ultimately always be recognized in our school.

Lucas

07-27-2010, 10:28 AM

Ranking system can control the quality. If your ranking system require your 1st degree black belt to have at least 5 times Sanshou/Sanda tournament experience, and he has to get either 1st, 2nd or 3rd place in those tournament, You will never have any student who is not willing/capable to fight.

this is a good point, especially if you are teaching a larger number of students. the issue i think is that there are consistancy problems. a black belt at one school can be worth so much more than a black belt at another.

Yum Cha

07-27-2010, 02:42 PM

Belts control Quality when there are too many students for the teacher to keep track of them?

"It leads to consistency amongst the students."

Oh my, where do you start with that one?

- Why is consistency important. If you teach individually, why do you want to make them all the same?
Are you training an army, efficiently, or are you training individuals? I can see that if you are training an army, you could introduce the efficiency argument, but I think the lease on Han's Island is a little steep for everybody here, except maybe Gene, 'cause he's rich and powerful...

I think there are some asian cultural issues with conformity in there as well, Chinese are a lot more Chaotic than the Japanese and Koreans, or just about any other culture I've come across, just between us....

To my mind:
The master is the standard, all that there is, then the students grow and approach that standard, some may exceed, some may not. Its just the natural way of things.

And as Brother#9 just pointed out in the previous post, they use belts, but then he points out the brother with a red sash, who's 'rank' is well beyond his belt. I still contend, everybody in the club knows who's who, Alpha, beta, etc. Belts are artificial.

No, I continue with the contention that they are simply superficial rites of passage, used to motivate students and generate revenue. Naturally, you want to steep with with meaning imagery to reinforce the drama of it all. If I was counting on students to feed my family, I'd probably make the business decision to use them, but just realise, nobody can put anything in your hand better than what you can grab yourself.

One man motivated beyond any public recognition to train and achieve.
One man motivated by belts and ceremonies to pursue his training.

Who would you rather train?