Martial Arts Master in a position of trust?

[Cheeta]

I have always viewed a Martial Arts instructor or Master as someone who is trustworthy. For example I would consider them to be as trustworthy as a minister or police officer should be. But now I am beginning to think that is a misconception.

So what do you think and why?

I wasn't sure where to post this, so feel free to move it if you need to.

[JamesC]

I think that the terms "instructor" and "master" aren't interchangeable. I only say this for clarification purposes.

To me, an instructor is someone that teaches. In the US, this usually goes hand-in-hand with a "service." Or, Kung Fu. IMO, having an instructor simply means you are paying someone for a service, and that your relationship doesn't stretch beyond those parameters. If the relationship does, well, it becomes something entirely different altogether.

A "master", on the other hand, brings to mind someone that has reached a mastery of life in general. To master something takes great discipline, responsibility, high ethical and moral values, and wisdom. If it is someone that has truly mastered an entire way of life, such as a kung fu style, trust simply won't be an issue.

Just my .02

[bawang]

bruce lee banged his student
he was a true master

[JamesC]

I dunno about that. Have you seen her?

[Chief_Suicide]

Master\Teacher stuff aside, if you mean 'the one who teaches you martial arts', then I think there needs to a certain level of expectation there.

A stranger can teach you something, so that is not all that special.

My Sifu (I'll use myself, where else am I going to draw experience from) teaches me and my sons. My YOUNG sons. It is ultimately my responsibility to verify and see who teaches my children and what they teach them. But, I do have a certain amount of trust in my Sifu that he is doing right by my children and myself.

If I see something that I can't agree with, or God forbid there is anything that happens that is immoral or illegal I should take action immediately.

But to answer the question, yes, I think they should be held to the standard or police, fireman, doctors, etc. If I didn't think better of my Sifu, I couldn't trust him to teach my children.

Now, given that, I don't go to my Sifu for legal, spiritual, medical advice. I go to my lawyer, pastor, or doctor for that.

My overly wordy two cents.

[MightyB]

Instructors are people. That means they're full of the same insecurities, fears, angers, mistakes, and misconceptions as anyone else. Only after you realize they're people just like you, can a teacher become your friend. And friendship is something worthy to build.

It's only after the idiots start to worship morons that you have problems. Then you get the godheads with the false sense of humility teaching the mumbo circus jumbo guru-isms that completely FU the TCMA world and make it darn near worthless as anything other than a weak form of ballet practiced by nerds who don't dance very well.

[SPJ]

personal trainer, coach, PE or MA instructors--

you trust them and follow their instruction while in classes

when not in class

to each his or her own.

you would trust your MA teachers, just like basket ball coach, yo ga instructor etc

no more and no less.

[Cheeta]

thanks for the replies thus far. It gives me something to think about. I was not suggesting they are Demi Gods. I was just thinking it is reasonable to expect them not to lie. to expect them to look out for your safety and best interests while in the dojo. I sure wouldn't be going to them for any other advice than martial arts. :)

[SevenStar]

An instructor is a normal person. This is part of the issue we have today - people tend to deify instructors, like they are above the average man - higher morals, more knowledge, etc. and this simply is not the case. He is just another man who (should be) skilled in his given field, no different from how an IT guy should be good in his field.

[Scott R. Brown]

In the past here on this BB I have mentioned that Michael Jordan is a Master of Basketball, but that doesn't mean you should let him advise you on proper/healthy personal and spiritual conduct.

It is part of the MA fantasy, due to Hong Kong movies, that MA instructors are also Masters of themselves/life! Most or at least many of them are no better, or worse than anyone else you meet in everyday life!

Remember the butcher from Chuang-Tzu, he was one with Tao, but just a common butcher, not a monk or priest. Masters of themselves/life are rare and far between and can be found in the most unlikely places!

[TaichiMantis]

I have met a few in life that have excellent skills but have not "mastered" a balanced life, and in fact, are pretty screwed up...:(

[bawang]

in chinese martial arts righteousness is spread and measured by money. thats why in the west ur "master" cant teach anything other than some forms. nothing wrong with that but dont expect to become better human beings . just train for fun

in the west people like to pretend to be kind, giving the homeless 2$ canned soup and smelly old clothes. when i went back to china to visit i gave beggars hundred dollar bills.

[jdhowland]

Some well respected masters are also well known for their foibles. Several Chinese instructors felt a need to point out to me in casual conversation that I should be careful because my teacher was a "gangster," as if that were unusual.

I've seen a few that resembled the kindly, wise old men of the movies. If you get to know these guys for a time you might find out that they are steely inside and have hurt or killed men in the past. That doesn't stop them from being kind or well meaning much of the time. In other words, take what you can get and don't give in to stereotypes. Preconceived notions of what someone is are always wrong because they are always incomplete.

Kung fu training is largely a product for sale, not an ideal way of life. Try to find a teacher who has similar values, but don't expect them. You can still find gems amidst the rubble.

[bawang]

chinese martial morality is solving problems through money and violence. the xia/hap = brute force and violence incarnate. this is why rich people dont "get it". whether chinese or white.

the "spiritual aspect" of kung fu is to transform a weak timid person into a violent person. this was why grandpa mao thought kung fu was dangerous. kung fu has the power of transformation.

[Cheeta]

Everyone makes interesting points. I had forgotten about the California Chineese scene. Well then, if masters are just ordinary people, then next time I go to the dojo, why should I bow? I don't bow to anyone else in life. And if the master says something that I don't agree with, then shouldn't I say something? If my friends or family say something I don't agree with then I will let them know. If the master is late for a lesson then shouldn't I tell them to be punctual? I would remind anyone else that my time is just as valuable as thiers.

To bad to hear about Kung Fu. I was considering that next. :(

[bawang]

why should I bow?
you shouldnt. this is the hypocracy of kung fu. the bow is meaningless
the family unit is broken down in the west. if you dont even show respect to your own parents how you can show respect to a stranger?

my white frend in high school told me he caught his dad jacking off to porno and cries at night

[Cheeta]

I did bow out of respect and I meant it. I thought my master deserved my respect every time. So I understood the meaning behind it. But should I have given that respect? And why is this expected at every dojo out there?