Was Bruce The Real Deal....

[Faruq]

This probably won't get any responses because everything about Bruce Lee has been talked about ad nauseum, but unfortunately I missed most of those conversations so I'll just post this anyway and see what happens. Many people say he was just an actor and he was an okay fighter, and others make him like this unbeatable martial arts legend. How good of a fighter was he really in real life? I posted this in another thread the other day, and I'll post it here just to get it started in case anyone does actually have something to say about this:

"Lee was involved in competitive fights, some of which were arranged while others were not. Dan Inosanto stated, "There's no doubt in my mind that if Bruce Lee had gone into pro boxing, he could easily have ranked in the top three in the lightweight division or junior-welterweight division."[36]

Lee defeated three-time champion British boxer Gary Elms by way of knockout in the third round in the 1958 Hong Kong Inter-School amateur Boxing Championships by using Wing Chun traps and high/low-level straight punches.[37] Hawkings Cheung, his fellow Wing Chun street fighter, witnessed the event. Lee knocked-out Pu Chung, a Cai Li Fo fighter, in the roof tops of Hong Kong in a 1958 Full-Contact match. The match was refereed by Wong Shun Leung.[38][39]

The following year, Lee became a member of the "Tigers of Junction Street," and was involved in numerous gang-related street fights. "In one of his last encounters, while removing his jacket the fellow he was squaring off against sucker punched him and blackened his eye. Bruce flew into a rage and went after him, knocking him out, breaking his opponent's arm. The police were called as a result."[40] The incident took place on a Hong Kong rooftop at 10 P.M. on Wednesday, April 29, 1959.[41]

In 1960 in Seattle, Lee backfisted and broke a man's nose after Lee saw him harassing a Chinese girl while Lee was taking a walk. This fight was witnessed by James DeMile in 1960.[citation needed]

In 1962, Lee knocked out Uechi, a Japanese black belt Karateka, in 11 seconds in a 1962 Full-Contact match in Seattle. It was refereed by Jesse Glover. The incident took place in Seattle at a YMCA handball court. Taki Kamura says the battle lasted 10 seconds in contrary to Harts statement.[42] Ed Hart states "The karate man arrived in his gi (uniform), complete with black belt, while Bruce showed up in his street clothes and simply took off his shoes. The fight lasted exactly 11 seconds – I know because I was the time keeper – and Bruce had hit the guy something like 15 times and kicked him once. I thought he'd killed him."[43] The fight ended by Bruce knocking Uechi the length of the gymnasium.[44]

In Oakland, California in 1964 at Chinatown, Lee had a controversial private match with Wong Jack Man. According to Lee, the Chinese community issued an ultimatum to him to stop teaching non-Chinese; when he refused to comply he was challenged to a combat match with their top fighter Wong Jack Man.[40] Wong had mastery of Xingyiquan, Northern Shaolin, and Tai chi chuan while being a direct student of Ma Kin Fung. The arrangement was that if Lee lost he would have to shut down his school, if he won then Lee would be free to teach Caucasians or anyone else.[40] Wong denies this, stating that he requested to fight Lee after Lee issued an open challenge during one of Lee's demonstrations at a Chinatown theater,[45] and that Wong himself did not discriminate against Caucasians or other non-Chinese.[46] However, contrary to this claimed motive is the signed formal letter manifested by Dan Chan with signatures by the martial art community, including Chan and Wong, as a petitioned document by the community does not correspond to the motive of responding to an open challenge.[original research?] "That paper had all the names of the sifu from Chinatown, but they don't scare me." — Bruce Lee[47]

Wong and witness William Chen stated that the fight lasted an unusually long 20–25 minutes.[48] Individuals known to have witnessed the match included Cadwell, James Lee (Bruce Lee's associate, no relation) and William Chen, a teacher of Tai chi chuan. According to Bruce Lee, Linda Lee Cadwell, and James Yimm Lee, the fight lasted 3 minutes with a decisive victory for Bruce. "The fight ensued, it was a no holds barred fight, it took three minutes. Bruce got this guy down to the ground and said 'do you give up?' and the man said he gave up." — Linda Lee Cadwell[40]

Wong Jack Man published his own account of the battle in the Chinese Pacific Weekly, a Chinese-language newspaper in San Francisco, which contained another challenge to Lee for a public rematch.[49] Lee had no reciprocation to Wong's article nor were there any further public announcements by either, but Lee had continued to teach Caucasians.

Lee's eventual celebrity put him in the path of a number of men who sought to make a name for themselves by causing a confrontation with Lee. A challenger had invaded Lee's private home in Hong Kong by trespassing into the backyard to incite Lee in combat. Lee finished the challenger violently with a kick, infuriated over the home invasion. Describing the incident, Herb Jackson states,

One time one fellow got over that wall, got into his yard and challenged him and he says 'how good are you?' And Bruce was poppin mad. He [Bruce] says 'he gets the idea, this guy, to come and invade my home, my own private home, invade it and challenge me.' He said he got so mad that he gave the hardest kick he ever gave anyone in his life.[50]

Bob Wall, USPK karate champion and Lee's co-star in Enter the Dragon, recalled one encounter that transpired after a film extra kept taunting Lee. The extra yelled that Lee was "a movie star, not a martial artist," that he "wasn't much of a fighter." Lee answered his taunts by asking him to jump down from the wall he was sitting on. Wall described Lee's opponent as "a gang-banger type of guy from Hong Kong," a "****ed good martial artist," and observed that he was fast, strong, and bigger than Bruce.[51]

This kid was good. He was strong and fast, and he was really trying to punch Bruce's brains in. But Bruce just methodically took him apart.[52] Bruce kept moving so well, this kid couldn't touch him...then all of a sudden, Bruce got him and rammed his ass with the wall and swept him up, proceeding to drop him and plant his knee into his opponent's chest, locked his arm out straight, and nailed him in the face repeatedly." — Bob Wall[53]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Lee#Fight_history

[David Jamieson]

No.
To many "I think" "He could've" "If he had" and so on.

It doesn't matter about might have beens.

In hindsight things are or they are not.

Bruce lee was not a competitive fighter, never entered any sanctioned matches and that's that.

Live with it. He wasn't a fighter in teh sense fo what is a fighter. He was an actor who amde martial arts movies.

[Hardwork108]

I believe that Bruce Lee was special in that he really was a fighter, and was fanatical about his martial arts training and development. Of course, wether the art he ended up with, could be defined as a TCMA, is a different story.....

[Hardwork108]

No.
To many "I think" "He could've" "If he had" and so on.

It doesn't matter about might have beens.

In hindsight things are or they are not.

Bruce lee was not a competitive fighter, never entered any sanctioned matches and that's that.

Live with it. He wasn't a fighter in teh sense fo what is a fighter. He was an actor who amde martial arts movies.

So in order to be a fighter one has to "fight" successfully in sports tournaments? :rolleyes:

The cluessness of some of the people in this forum never ceases to amaze me, specially when some you guys are supposed to be "kung fu" teachers or even "sifus".......:rolleyes:

HW108

PS. For your information, many TMAs were not designed to be used in sports tournaments. See, you learn something new every day.......

[lkfmdc]

oh dear lord :rolleyes:

1) I respect Dan Inosanto, but please realize that if Bruce Lee had never made a movie he'd have been a high school PE teacher, IE he has a very vested financial interest in the Bruce Lee persona

2) That aside, saying "in my MIND" means nothing anyway... do you know how many "highly touted" prospects with great amateur careers do ZIP (ZERO) in pro boxing?

3) Based upon Bruce's STUDENTS, ie people vested in his image, we have stories of Bruce winning some highschool boxing tournament. What does this mean? That he beat some other high school kids in a tournament, IF that did happen :rolleyes:

4) Roof top fights? LMFAO! Have you seen these fights!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2ewgpH4e_g

5) The infamous "karate black belt". Aside from Bruce's students do we have ANY VERIFICATION? Bruce supposedly fought a guy who did karate. Did he take classes at the local YMCA maybe ? :rolleyes: Again, these are STORIES told by people vested in the image... there is no independent info


6) The Wong Jack Man thing has been done to death.. look it up

7) Bob Wall? He'd likely be homeless if he didn't give lectures on Bruce Lee. :rolleyes:

People need to get over this crap

[Hardwork108]

oh dear lord :rolleyes:

1) I respect Dan Inosanto, but please realize that if Bruce Lee had never made a movie he'd have been a high school PE teacher, IE he has a very vested financial interest in the Bruce Lee persona

2) That aside, saying "in my MIND" means nothing anyway... do you know how many "highly touted" prospects with great amateur careers do ZIP (ZERO) in pro boxing?

3) Based upon Bruce's STUDENTS, ie people vested in his image, we have stories of Bruce winning some highschool boxing tournament. What does this mean? That he beat some other high school kids in a tournament, IF that did happen :rolleyes:

4) Roof top fights? LMFAO! Have you seen these fights!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2ewgpH4e_g

5) The infamous "karate black belt". Aside from Bruce's students do we have ANY VERIFICATION? Bruce supposedly fought a guy who did karate. Did he take classes at the local YMCA maybe ? :rolleyes: Again, these are STORIES told by people vested in the image... there is no independent info


6) The Wong Jack Man thing has been done to death.. look it up

7) Bob Wall? He'd likely be homeless if he didn't give lectures on Bruce Lee. :rolleyes:

People need to get over this crap

I wonder if the tone of your post would have been the same if Bruce Lee had been your teacher?:D

[SPJ]

Jun fan quan fa. jun fan boxing methods.

there are books about jie quan dao.

stances, theory, practice

---

hopefully, some students may carry on and broaden or add on to JFQF.

--

if some fighters or real life fighting using JFQF, then his stuff is practical or applicable

---

yip man was his teacher. yip man was legit and yip man movies may dramatize. but yip man and wc are real.

I am looking forward to yip man 3 movies. since bruce lee showed up at the end of yip man 2.

any hoo, yes bruce lee was a child actor in HK, then casting for green hornet, then----

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcLZHpB2Pj8&feature=PlayList&p=AE3A650D3B5C7F83&playnext=1&index=11

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJMW9wvCr8Q&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCRr50a7cNs&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBEWmLU7KVA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezdcvQdvyj4&feature=related

[SevenStar]

So in order to be a fighter one has to "fight" successfully in sports tournaments? :rolleyes:

The cluessness of some of the people in this forum never ceases to amaze me, specially when some you guys are supposed to be "kung fu" teachers or even "sifus".......:rolleyes:

HW108

PS. For your information, many TMAs were not designed to be used in sports tournaments. See, you learn something new every day.......


anyone can have a fight. that doesn't make them a fighter. By the logic you are using, any street thug is a fighter. in reality, he is just a person who has been in a fight. Lee did not fight for a living. Cung Le does. He is a fighter. Soldiers were fighters. Lee was an actor.

[taai gihk yahn]

I wonder if the tone of your post would have been the same if Bruce Lee had been your teacher?:D

given the degree of candor with which Dave (and myself) regularly speak about the reality of CTS, I believe that the answer would be "yes";

anyway, the tone aside, the point is well-taken: Bruce Lee was first and foremost an actor; it doesn't mean he had no fighting skill, but it doesn't make him as good as many people like to paint him, i.e. - legendary / unstoppable - also, remember the context: he was dealing with people who fought out of a relatively rigid paradigm: whereas he took his WC and added in the flow of boxing and fencing, which is why he was so much more agile and maneuverable than pretty much anyone else at the time in the TMA world; he also trained very hard and certainly he obviously was very well conditioned not to mention intrinsically fast - so for the time he was an anomaly, but again, the average TMA skill level at that time was not what it is today (and part of the reason u have MMA is due to the artificial constraints of TMA in the US for so many decades);

[Shaolindynasty]

There is a difference between a fighter and martial artist. Bruce Lee was a great martial artist.

[hskwarrior]

Lee knocked-out Pu Chung, a Cai Li Fo fighter, in the roof tops of Hong Kong in a 1958 Full-Contact match. The match was refereed by Wong Shun Leung.[38][39]

I find it pretty funny that much of this story was left out. The Choy Lee Fut guy beat bruce lee pretty bad in this fight. Bruce was scared and didn't want to continue fighting him. But, his sifu or coach at that time said to him "if you don't go out and fight him i will kick your arse myself" ...... so bruce went out swinging and yes beat the CLF out of his desperation.

[bawang]

fuk bruce lee
i pee on his grave

[hskwarrior]

fuk bruce lee
i pee on his grave

The Police have been alerted. They will be processing your DNA that you left on his grave and will be contacting you very soon :p

[Scott R. Brown]

In some cultures, peeing on another's grave is a sign of deep respect and devotion!

[hskwarrior]

In some cultures, peeing on another's grave is a sign of deep respect and devotion!

ROTFLMAO.......that's why im getting Cremated!!!!!!

[Scott R. Brown]

What if your devoted followers pee on the fire and accidentally put it out?:eek:

[hskwarrior]

I guess then i'd pushin up Pee Pee Daisies then huh

[Hardwork108]

The Police have been alerted. They will be processing your DNA that you left on his grave and will be contacting you very soon :p

The police are probably heading for Dave Ross's gym as we speak.....:D

[Hardwork108]

anyone can have a fight. that doesn't make them a fighter.
Look, i am not a Bruce Lee fan, but credit has to be given where it is deserved. The man was an ennovator and by many accounts he had a lot of street fighting experience. Actually, didn't he leave Hong Kong because of all the gang trouble he was getting into?

Add that to his fanatical MA studies, training and great conditioning, then you have somebody who is more than some street thug with a couple of fights under his belt.

I should not be the one to protect him here as his evolution of the MAs turned into something other than TCMAs, that is what he did was closer to modern "funtional" MMA than traditional kung fu. Actually, I have seen some knuckleheads in this forum who swear by him....LOL!


By the logic you are using, any street thug is a fighter. in reality, he is just a person who has been in a fight.
And by the logic you are using Bruce Lee is just any street thug?


Lee did not fight for a living.
Yet, by some accounts, he trained harder and more constantly than many people who did!


Cung Le does. He is a fighter. Soldiers were fighters. Lee was an actor.
Lee was a martial artist before anything else. He was a street fighter probably even before he became a martial artist.

And again, many martial arts were not designed for sports tournaments. IMHO, and you may not agree, the proof of a MA's functionality is to be found in the street and not in sports tournaments, even if the latter scenario may have beneficial effects, in regards to the former.

[taai gihk yahn]

In some cultures, peeing on another's grave is a sign of deep respect and devotion!

perhaps you will allow me to show my deep respect and devotion while you are still with us...:p

[taai gihk yahn]

fuk bruce lee
i pee on his grave

considering that he is buried in Seattle and you live near Toronto, that's pretty impressive range you have there!

[Hardwork108]

given the degree of candor with which Dave (and myself) regularly speak about the reality of CTS, I believe that the answer would be "yes";

anyway, the tone aside, the point is well-taken: Bruce Lee was first and foremost an actor; it doesn't mean he had no fighting skill, but it doesn't make him as good as many people like to paint him, i.e. - legendary / unstoppable - also, remember the context: he was dealing with people who fought out of a relatively rigid paradigm: whereas he took his WC and added in the flow of boxing and fencing, which is why he was so much more agile and maneuverable than pretty much anyone else at the time in the TMA world; he also trained very hard and certainly he obviously was very well conditioned not to mention intrinsically fast - so for the time he was an anomaly, but again, the average TMA skill level at that time was not what it is today (and part of the reason u have MMA is due to the artificial constraints of TMA in the US for so many decades);

I would not paint him as legendary but I would not put him down next to bone head street thugs either.

IMHO, the man had more than enough fighting talent to send quite a few of the "functionally" trained MMA posters in this forum to hospital.

Yet,and again, I am not a great fan of his, and one of the reasons is that he is responsible for the fad of "hey lets learn some MA and then make our own "better" style", which is so common nowadays. A lot of the senseless cross training (yes, there is sensible cross training too), is due to his MA approach.

I always say, that Bruce Lee made his approach work for him. HIs Jeet Kune Do worked for him, however, what he ended up with was NOT a new TCMA style, nor a better way to do them.

That is why a lot of people who try to improve their kung fu, through cross training/MMA, without first having completed a given style or understood it, end up with something that may "work for them", while that something is not a TCMA anymore. That is why we have so much cluelessness about the TCMAS.

I believe that Bruce Lee is at least partially to blame for that, even if the poor man never classified what he did as a TCMA, as he had made up his mind that "classical" kung fu was just nonsense.

The irony is that many people who are putting the man down follow the same clueless path that says, to simplify, modern good because it is scientific and "functional", and classical is bad because it is old and has concepts that are useless because WE, the great, do not understand them. LOL!

Just to say again, the man was more than just an MA actor. The world is full of MA actors, but he left behind a legacy, and a MA approach that have influenced many ( including not a few knuckleheads who lurk in this forum), to choose a certain martial path.

For whatever its worth, I think that CTS would eat Bruce Lee alive. Dave Ross, on the other hand would probably eat him alive, literally speaking....:D

[teetsao]

i have to agree with ikfmdc,not that my input counts for much. i started martial arts because of bruce lee movies, but also because of old shaw bro. films. i like most was you in the early 70s' and saw all the bruce lee stuff. i think one of the biggest things that adds to the bruce lee mystic is that he was in the u.s. in the 60s'. martial arts had just been introduced to america maybe 20-30 years earlier in pockets. ark y. wong was teaching whites in CA way before lee,but middle america still only knew judo and maybe some karate.
so many people these days still say"bruce lee was the best that ever lived" then i have to remind them about some people called the shaolin monks who lee couldnt touch if he had tried. not the modern wushu,im talking tradidtional shaolin with all the conditioning training. i think he was a good influence on the t.c.m.a. community but not the best there ever was. everybody has a teacher and there is always someone better than you.

[Lucas]

imo there are 4 bruce lee, one is real info that we know, and 1 is the icon. then like for everyone else, there is 1 for your friends and family, and 1 that is only for yourself.

[thelegend731]

I think Bruce Lee was an exceptional fighter. The fact that he devoted his life to martial arts and expanding on the effectiveness of his techniques shows that at least he was extremely devoted to fighting to win, whatever that could entail.

He spent his entire life thinking of how to fight. He studied how to make the most practical combat techniques and their usability in a fight. He was constantly streamlining new methods into his practice.

Now could he take on someone today may be a different question entirely. Martial arts had not evolved yet like the arts we have today (MMA). Fighting back then was quite different than fighting today.

I'm sure he was an effective fighter back then. I'm not so sure with the skill and mindset he had back then, would he be able to take on today's top fighters. Of course I completely believe that if he continued his streamlining process of adding more useful things to his arsenal and discarding the useless, he could very well catch up and be on even ground with some of today's top fighters.

[Faruq]

All the information everyone's giving is pretty interesting. Teetsao, where you say Ark Yuey Wong was teaching Whites way before Bruce is interesting, because I've always read that the cause of Bruce's fight with Wong Jack Man was that he was teaching non-Chinese. Did they give Ark Y Wong a hard time about it as well to your knowledge?



i have to agree with ikfmdc,not that my input counts for much. i started martial arts because of bruce lee movies, but also because of old shaw bro. films. i like most was you in the early 70s' and saw all the bruce lee stuff. i think one of the biggest things that adds to the bruce lee mystic is that he was in the u.s. in the 60s'. martial arts had just been introduced to america maybe 20-30 years earlier in pockets. ark y. wong was teaching whites in CA way before lee,but middle america still only knew judo and maybe some karate.
so many people these days still say"bruce lee was the best that ever lived" then i have to remind them about some people called the shaolin monks who lee couldnt touch if he had tried. not the modern wushu,im talking tradidtional shaolin with all the conditioning training. i think he was a good influence on the t.c.m.a. community but not the best there ever was. everybody has a teacher and there is always someone better than you.

[Lucas]

read this about bruce lee:

http://www.sanjosekenpo.com/UNSETTLEDMATTERS.pdf

[hskwarrior]

Bruce's fight with Wong Jack Man was that he was teaching non-Chinese.

In San francisco's Chinese community they did not allow teaching outsiders and many masters were opposed to it. However, even T.Y. Wong was bringing out Chinese Martial arts to the american public as he was on t.v. doing so.

[Faruq]

lkfmdc, lol. You should be a writer! You've made me feel embarrassed to have even posted this, lol. Your gift for pointing out the lack of logic in someone's post, coupled with the hint of sarcasm makes a person have to laugh at himself even though he's just been shown how ridiculous his position is. Your pen fu is unrivaled, lol. No wonder you're one of the posters who keeps this site going. Touché!


oh dear lord :rolleyes:

1) I respect Dan Inosanto, but please realize that if Bruce Lee had never made a movie he'd have been a high school PE teacher, IE he has a very vested financial interest in the Bruce Lee persona

2) That aside, saying "in my MIND" means nothing anyway... do you know how many "highly touted" prospects with great amateur careers do ZIP (ZERO) in pro boxing?

3) Based upon Bruce's STUDENTS, ie people vested in his image, we have stories of Bruce winning some highschool boxing tournament. What does this mean? That he beat some other high school kids in a tournament, IF that did happen :rolleyes:

4) Roof top fights? LMFAO! Have you seen these fights!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2ewgpH4e_g

5) The infamous "karate black belt". Aside from Bruce's students do we have ANY VERIFICATION? Bruce supposedly fought a guy who did karate. Did he take classes at the local YMCA maybe ? :rolleyes: Again, these are STORIES told by people vested in the image... there is no independent info


6) The Wong Jack Man thing has been done to death.. look it up

7) Bob Wall? He'd likely be homeless if he didn't give lectures on Bruce Lee. :rolleyes:

People need to get over this crap

[lkfmdc]

If Wong jack Man was against teaching non-Chinese, he had a funny way of showing it, ie he taught A LOT OF FOREIGN STUDENTS

You also have to wonder why if the big, bad Chinese mafia was out to get bruce, they picked Wong? At the time he was a working as a waiter, didnt' have a school or a rep. There were some legit bad arses in SF at the time who you would have expected the "big heads" would have picked, why Wong?

Two obvious obsrevations, if Bruce Lee had beaten Wong so badly, why was he so disgusted with himself and CHANGE EVERYTHING HE DID? hmmmmmm

Second, for a guy who got beat really badly, Wong was working the next day and according to Ming Lum didn't have a scratch on him, much less bruises or black eyes, etc

If Bruce were a fighter, he would have FOUGHT. He had boxing, full contact kickboxing, Muay Thai in Thailand, Kuoshu in Taiwan and the South East Asian Cup in Hong Kong... in fact, he attended a South East Asian Cup as a spectator in Hong Kong.... not as a fighter

[Faruq]

That makes a lot of sense.


If Wong jack Man was against teaching non-Chinese, he had a funny way of showing it, ie he taught A LOT OF FOREIGN STUDENTS

You also have to wonder why if the big, bad Chinese mafia was out to get bruce, they picked Wong? At the time he was a working as a waiter, didnt' have a school or a rep. There were some legit bad arses in SF at the time who you would have expected the "big heads" would have picked, why Wong?

Two obvious obsrevations, if Bruce Lee had beaten Wong so badly, why was he so disgusted with himself and CHANGE EVERYTHING HE DID? hmmmmmm

Second, for a guy who got beat really badly, Wong was working the next day and according to Ming Lum didn't have a scratch on him, much less bruises or black eyes, etc

If Bruce were a fighter, he would have FOUGHT. He had boxing, full contact kickboxing, Muay Thai in Thailand, Kuoshu in Taiwan and the South East Asian Cup in Hong Kong... in fact, he attended a South East Asian Cup as a spectator in Hong Kong.... not as a fighter

[hskwarrior]

You also have to wonder why if the big, bad Chinese mafia was out to get bruce, they picked Wong? At the time he was a working as a waiter, didnt' have a school or a rep. There were some legit bad arses in SF at the time who you would have expected the "big heads" would have picked, why Wong?

According to Sifu David Chin, he was part of it as well. He said to me directly that he was the one to fight bruce,but wong supposedly sign the contract before he could.

If the Chinese underworld wanted to kill bruce so bad, he would have been killed like the other chinatown sifu's that have been killed.


Two obvious obsrevations, if Bruce Lee had beaten Wong so badly, why was he so disgusted with himself and CHANGE EVERYTHING HE DID? hmmmmmm

again...according to David Chin bruce didn't beat him so bad. wong tripped over a step while backing up to avoid bruce's attacks.

The rules were that the loser was supposed to stop teaching. Wong Jack Man never closed down.

[Faruq]

In San francisco's Chinese community they did not allow teaching outsiders and many masters were opposed to it. However, even T.Y. Wong was bringing out Chinese Martial arts to the american public as he was on t.v. doing so.

Where did T Y Wong teach?


I find it pretty funny that much of this story was left out. The Choy Lee Fut guy beat bruce lee pretty bad in this fight. Bruce was scared and didn't want to continue fighting him. But, his sifu or coach at that time said to him "if you don't go out and fight him i will kick your arse myself" ...... so bruce went out swinging and yes beat the CLF out of his desperation.

Where do you get the skinny on all this stuff, man? You've always got the inside info. Did Bruce win any real fights convincingly?

[hskwarrior]

T.Y. Wong taught in Chinatown SF

My gung fu family was directly involved with telling bruce not to teach the outsiders. all of my sisook gung's break down the stories for me. i ask alot of questions.

In the bay area bruce was a trouble maker. he'd send his students into other schools to test them out. he always seemed to run into big problems when he'd sent his students into Professor Lau Bun's school.

From the perspective of my sisook gung's........bruce lee wasn't much to talk about.

[cerebus]

Well... as with all things, there are extreme opinions on both ends... yet the truth seems to be somewhere in the middle.

1) Bruce was a martial artist first and foremost. That was his primary passion, beyond his desire to be a movie star. Even if he had NEVER made it as a movie star, he STILL would have been a martial artist.

2) Clearly the Wong Jackman/ Bruce Lee fight was NOT over teaching Gwai Lo. Wong Jackman has taught caucasians throughout his career, and T.Y. Wong was teaching them even before that.

3) Looking at all the accounts of the fight between Lee and Wong, Lee got the upper hand, though he didn't do so as easily as Lee or his widow would have people believe, and it was because Wong ran into a cabinet. Lee admitted that Wong made him "look bad" and Wong likely could have done much better had he decided to let loose as Bruce did. Nonetheless, Wong held back and Bruce got the upper hand.

4) As for the high school boxing match, there were not only photos of the match (I've seen them myself) but many witnesses to it. Not likely Lee would've claimed victory with so many of his high school friends as witnesses (and naming his opponent) if he hadn't won.

5) At the time Lee was interested in "proving" himself, there was no weight division to accommodate him in full-contact competition. By the time there was, he was making $800 an hour teaching Hollywood film stars. How many of YOU are stupid enough to pass THAT up to fight full-contact for peanuts?

Sorry, but people often just talk like idiots when it comes to Bruce Lee. He wasn't a Kung Fu God, but he wasn't just some movie actor faking it either. People need to do more research...

[lkfmdc]

have fun reading some of this stuff

http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/mma.cfm?go=forum_framed.posts&thread=1434235

http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/mma.cfm?go=forum_framed.posts&thread=1491298

[lkfmdc]

3) Looking at all the accounts of the fight between Lee and Wong, Lee got the upper hand, though he didn't do so as easily as Lee or his widow would have people believe, and it was because Wong ran into a cabinet. Lee admitted that Wong made him "look bad" and Wong likely could have done much better had he decided to let loose as Bruce did. Nonetheless, Wong held back and Bruce got the upper hand.



The next day Wong was at work and didn't have any noticable marks. Compare that to a guy after a san shou, KB or MMA bout and wonder how "serious" this "fight" really was




4) As for the high school boxing match, there were not only photos of the match (I've seen them myself) but many witnesses to it. Not likely Lee would've claimed victory with so many of his high school friends as witnesses (and naming his opponent) if he hadn't won.



And if he DID win a hs boxing tournament? What exactly does that really mean?




5) At the time Lee was interested in "proving" himself, there was no weight division to accommodate him in full-contact competition. By the time there was, he was making $800 and hour teaching Hollywood film stars. How many of YOU are stupid enough to pass THAT up to fight full-contact for peanuts?



The guys in Taiwan and HK were not much bigger than Bruce, most weren't on roids like Bruce was! He could have fought if that is what he really wanted to do, and prove he was a fighter. The real issue is he DID NOT WANT TO BE A FIGHTER

[hskwarrior]

2) Clearly the Wong Jackman/ Bruce Lee fight was NOT over teaching Gwai Lo. Wong Jackman has taught caucasians throughout his career, and T.Y. Wong was teaching them even before that.

Wong Jack Man is still alive today. and i seriously doubt that it was his era or generation that wouldn't teach outsiders. It was Lau Bun's generation that was set against it.

[cerebus]

The next day Wong was at work and didn't have any noticable marks. Compare that to a guy after a san shou, KB or MMA bout and wonder how "serious" this "fight" really was

And if he DID win a hs boxing tournament? What exactly does that really mean?

The guys in Taiwan and HK were not much bigger than Bruce, most weren't on roids like Bruce was! He could have fought if that is what he really wanted to do, and prove he was a fighter. The real issue is he DID NOT WANT TO BE A FIGHTER

According to Bruce, Linda and James Lee (admittedly biased sources) Bruce mainly punched Wong in the back of the head and his back. At the same time (as you intimate) most such fights of this sort were hyped as being far more serious than they really were. A standard San Shou fight today is actually a much more serious match than many of the old "gong sao" matches were.

If Bruce really won the boxing match he claimed, what it means is that he used his Wing Chun within a rule set that he wasn't familiar with and STILL won. I say good for him.

The times Bruce returned to HK & SE Asia were as a celebrity and movie star with a family to support. He would have been quite foolish to have entered any serious tournaments at that point... ;)

[Hardwork108]

I think we should also consider the related fact that a lot of the Chinese Kung Fu masters who taught whites, held a lot back, and still do today. Some of them are even choosy when it comes to teaching their fellow Chinese.

So, it would not make sense for these masters not to want to teach the whites if they could teach them just enough to keep them happy.

[Faruq]

This is golden. Until you posted this, I was going to ask what the fight was about then if every one else was teaching the gwai lo themselves. Also though, hskwarrior points out that Bruce was a troublemaker, so that could explain them not wanting Bruce to do so. And maybe he was teaching too much and not holding enough back.


I think we should also consider the related fact that a lot of the Chinese Kung Fu masters who taught whites, held a lot back, and still do today. Some of them are even choosy when it comes to teaching their fellow Chinese.

So, it would not make sense for these masters not to want to teach the whites if they could teach them just enough to keep them happy.

[bawang]

And maybe he was teaching too much and not holding enough back.
hold what back? he trained wing chun.

i never heard of bruce lee in china. most immigrant kung fu ppls told me "white people really like him"
after i saw his movie go in the dragon i understood finally why ppl shouted "wachaaaaaaaaaaaa"
he made white ppls think chinese ppl are all tiny and scream like orangatangs. thanks bruce.

FUK TO YOU

also his daughter is relly fat and ugly

[Faruq]

LOL! Bawang, I'm speechless....


hold what back? he trained wing chun.

i never heard of bruce lee in china. most immigrant kung fu ppls told me "white people really like him"
after i saw his movie go in the dragon i understood finally why ppl shouted "wachaaaaaaaaaaaa"
he made white ppls think chinese ppl are all tiny and scream like orangatangs. thanks bruce.

FUK TO YOU

also his daughter is relly fat and ugly

[mickey]

Greetings,

There was discussion about BL at the Rum Saoked Fist. Someone there mentioned a fight between BL and Kuo Lien Ying, that resulted in BL literally being thrown out of Kuo's school. While it was the first time someone has brought this up publicly, it made me wonder whether this event was the cause of BL's back injury.

mickey

[goju]

i love how people are talking about the wong jack man/bL fight and the results matter of factly as if any one here was actually there at the time:rolleyes:

the truth is the only who know how legit bruce was were the people who actually met and knew the man

all the rest of the people on his bandwagon and his detractors all just resort to baseless speculation in the end which is gettingpretty old by now.

[David Jamieson]

i love how people are talking about the wong jack man/bL fight and the results matter of factly as if any one here was actually there at the time:rolleyes:

the truth is the only who know how legit bruce was were the people who actually met and knew the man

all the rest of the people on his bandwagon and his detractors all just resort to baseless speculation in the end which is gettingpretty old by now.

wong jack man actually posted a letter about the whole thing. he was there and the concensus is that his version is what happened as opposed to Linda Lee...who wasn't there.

just sayin...

[Hardwork108]

And maybe he was teaching too much and not holding enough back.

I believe that he may have "projected" that he was teaching too much to the white, and not holding back. I say that because to my knowledge Bruce Lee had not completed his Wing Chun as by some accounts he left Hong Kong when he was Chum Kiu level.

Also, the fact that Yip Man himself would not teach him personally because he was not fully Chinese, indicates to me that his own school in Hong Kong held back a lot of kung fu from him.

And as far as other kung fu styles are concerned, then again, he did not study them to the full.

Yet,the man had enough talent and spirit to follow his own path and become a martial arts, not TCMA, expert, and influence the world of martial arts in a lasting manner. So, no one can take his achievements from away from him.

[goju]

im aware of that letter but bare in mind he could be talking out of his ass just like linda may have done:D

thats the thing with fights that arent caught on camera

usually every side has a different story

[Hardwork108]

LOL! Bawang, I'm speechless....


Let's hope that we can one day say the same about "Bawang".....:D

[Frost]

im aware of that letter but bare in mind he could be talking out of his ass just like linda may have done:D

thats the thing with fights that arent caught on camera

usually every side has a different story

but those who were there tend to agree with wongs acount and not lindas, anyway as already pointed out if the chinese were serious about shuting him down they would have not sent a waiter to do the job, and since he never finished wing chun how could he be passing on secrets that annoyd the masters?:confused:

[goju]

oh i dont particularly buy the whole bruce was fighting for the right to teach gwai lo bit or what have you

it was likely just a scrap on the street between two rivals that didnt end in an impressive manner (shrugs) and i think both sides were and are stretching the truth

[bawang]

it was an embarrasing slap fest
rich abc + skinny cantonese waiter = many lols

[Lee Chiang Po]

it was an embarrasing slap fest
rich abc + skinny cantonese waiter = many lols

LOL!! Probably the closest thing to the truth so far. I rember all the old 3rd rate kung fu movies from back in the 60's and 70's, and most of them were actually better than the Bruce Lee movies. I found most of them sort of funny.

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2_kRDjt6HM&feature=fvw

the real story?

:)

[Blacktiger]

Man stuff the story - I want the smokin disco soundtrack :D

[rfbrown3]

I wrote this (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=634427#post634427) a few years back on this forum but I will re-post my thoughts here. I have not changed my mind much since I last posted this except I now maybe have a bit more respect for his acting and his martial art philosophy than I did when I first wrote this:


I was alive when Bruce Lee was alive, unlike many of those who today have made him into some sort of demigod. Plain simple truth of the matter as I see it, Bruce Lee was a very talented athlete, not much of an actor, and possessed a fair amount of martial art talent. Here are some of my observations about the man.

He was way too small to compete in the tournaments of his time although I think he did do a demo at one of Ed Parker's tournaments. People like Mike Stone, Chuck Norris, and Joe Lewis were much bigger and quite frankly much better and could have easily beaten him in the ring.

Bruce Lee was also a man who seemed to be battling his own demons. I think after the Wong Jack Man fight he came to question his own abilities and spent the rest of his short life trying to overcome his perceived limitations. He definately possessed somewhat of an arrogant personality but I also think he was very hard on himself and people seem to flock to him.

Bruce Lee though had a dynamic, charismatic personality and as I stated above, attracted quite a following. Three decades after his death, he apparently still does. He helped tremendously to popularize Martial Arts in his time, and again three decades after his death, he still does, which I find just amazing.

Bruce Lee was an iconoclast and as such rejected much of the traditions of CMAs including the practice of forms. I think much of that stemmed from the reasons I stated in the above paragraph. Whatever else though, Bruce Lee seemed to have possessed a high degree of curiosity about other MAs and had the keen sense to be able to pull many things together from many different arts. He therefore in my mind was a keen student, but had little patience for the traditional method of teaching found in most CMAs.

I have always been curious as to how Bruce Lee's MA philosophy and with that his JKD would have evolved had he lived longer. Bruce Lee was very much a product of his time, a time when every facet in society was being called into question. The prevailing wisdom of the time was to reject the wisdom of our elders, but I wonder how this attitude would have changed as Lee grew older(and wiser). I somehow like to speculate that eventually he would have come full circle and and just maybe would have come to realize the value of at least some of the traditions in CMAs he had previously discarded and that his natural curiosity I believe would have him at some point in time devoting time and energy to the study of those traditions and that would have made him both a better teacher and a martial artist. Just a theory of course, and I could be dead wrong on that.

His statement, "become water my friends" is IMHO, one of the corniest pieces of psycho-babble that I have ever heard!

My most favorite Bruce Lee "moment" was his scenes in the movie, Marlowe, with James Garner.

Much of what today we think we know about Bruce Lee comes from Linda Lee, his widow, and I think she has distorted or at least exaggerated a lot of events in Bruce Lee's life for her own financial gain and of course to promulgate his reputation and memory. I am not sure what to think of her or her motives.

Please note that these obsevations are made at a distance, and of course I never met Bruce Lee in person or for that matter, anyone close to him. Take them with a grain of salt if you want, doesn't matter to me. Just my two cents worth.

Robert

[Faruq]

Let's hope that we can one day say the same about "Bawang".....:D

Now that's not fair. Bawang should be an inspiration to us all! Despite not being a native speaker, Bawang is resolute that his lack of mastery of English grammar won't stop him from insulting and cursing any and everyone he can with as much vulgarity as he can muster. His persistence and faith are noble!

[Faruq]

That's what I heard too. In an article on Wing Chun World several years back by a classmate and friend with an English first name like Duncan Leung or Hawkins Cheung, I read that Bruce only created JKD because Yip Man wouldn't allow him to film the last part of the Wing Chun system during one of his visits to Hong Kong to take back to the U.S. and master; so he needed some way to take his skill to the masters level or complete his martial skill.

The not holding back thing was just my speculation as to why Bruce was told not to teach the gwai lo and others were allowed to, and that was just after another post in this thread suggested it if I remember correctly.


I believe that he may have "projected" that he was teaching too much to the white, and not holding back. I say that because to my knowledge Bruce Lee had not completed his Wing Chun as by some accounts he left Hong Kong when he was Chum Kiu level.

Also, the fact that Yip Man himself would not teach him personally because he was not fully Chinese, indicates to me that his own school in Hong Kong held back a lot of kung fu from him.

And as far as other kung fu styles are concerned, then again, he did not study them to the full.

Yet,the man had enough talent and spirit to follow his own path and become a martial arts, not TCMA, expert, and influence the world of martial arts in a lasting manner. So, no one can take his achievements from away from him.

[Laukarbo]

"be water my friend" is IMHO, one of the corniest pieces of psycho-babble that I have ever heard!


Robert

thank you !

it makes me go apeshyite when people use that sentence...and they do all the time...:rolleyes:

[Scott R. Brown]

"be water my friend" is IMHO, one of the corniest pieces of psycho-babble that I have ever heard!


Robert


thank you !

it makes me go apeshyite when people use that sentence...and they do all the time...:rolleyes:

That is because you two do not yet know how to "be like water"!:p;)

[Lokhopkuen]

fuk bruce lee
i pee on his grave

You would not say this to the face of Bruce Lee:rolleyes:

LMAO

[Laukarbo]

That is because you two do not yet know how to "be like water"!:p;)

to be like water is for pus$ies....:D:eek:

[bawang]

be like diarrhea my friend
let it flow

You would not say this to the face of Bruce Lee:rolleyes:


every time i take a dump i see his face.

[SPJ]

be like water

is to change according to the environment/condition/opponent

is to be flexible

is to yield to the resistence such as rock or something hard

is to bypass the strong and go to where is least resistence or easy

is to be circuitous

--

the only constant or no changing is to flow

when you look at water, you see reflexion of yourself

so be like a water

is also to be a reflexion of your opponent

--

this is my babble or bubbles.

so is your MA practice like a water and flow?

that is the Q.

I ask me self the same Q everyday.

babbles or not.

[lkfmdc]

Please read "unsettled matters", it is FREE on the web... I guarantee you that it will change the perception of Bruce that his wife has tried to thrust upon the public for years

Rather quickly, his "kewl persona" and catchy pseudo philosophical one liners won't be as wonderful when you realize who Bruce Lee really was and what he was really about

[lkfmdc]

PS: if you wonder what Linda Lee's motivations are consider this

Dan Inosanto can't say Bruce's name anymore in interviews, he has to say "my teacher" because Linda SUED HIM

[rogue]

Here are some impressions of BL when he visited a New England dojo.
(http://forums.uechi-ryu.com/viewtopic.php?t=20332&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=bruce+lee+jim&start=0)

[Eric Olson]

Re: BL vs. Wong Jack Man

It's totally plausible that the fight ended without anyone actually "winning." If you have two opponents that are pretty equally matched, it really comes down to a lucky shot that decides the course of the fight. If that never occurred then both parties might have walked away unsatisfied.

I know that BL changed his whole training regimen afterwards, focusing on conditioning rather than on refining technique. If you're fighting against a worthy opponent, conditioning can be the most decisive factor. Your opponent gets tired, drops their guard and you can land the decisive blow.

EO

[Hardwork108]

Now that's not fair. Bawang should be an inspiration to us all! Despite not being a native speaker, Bawang is resolute that his lack of mastery of English grammar won't stop him from insulting and cursing any and everyone he can with as much vulgarity as he can muster. His persistence and faith are noble!

The only thing is that he probably is a native English speaker....;)

[Dragonzbane76]

The only thing is that he probably is a native English speaker....

and your a basement dwelling pedo. whats your point?

[Hardwork108]

That is because you two do not yet know how to "be like water"!:p;)

Actually, the idea of "being like water" precedes Bruce Lee by probably a few hundred years, speaking TCMA wise, but some people seem to think that it was some innovation by Bruce Lee.....

[taai gihk yahn]

Actually, the idea of "being like water" precedes Bruce Lee by probably a few hundred years, speaking TCMA wise, but some people seem to think that it was some innovation by Bruce Lee.....

actually it's in the Dao De Jing, so it precedes BL by about 2500 years...

[taai gihk yahn]

The only thing is that he probably is a native English speaker....;)

whats your point?
he believes for some strange reason that bawang is a fake account and is actually Dave Ross; which is interesting considering that I have exchanged e-mails, taiji photos and CHinese documents with bawang, have him as a FB friend, and will be meeting up with him in person (along w/Sanjnuo and Jamieson) in Spetember when I visit Toronto;

actually, I don't think he really believes it, it's just a somewhat played-out riff of his that he uses to dismiss anything bawang posts

[goju]

Please read "unsettled matters", it is FREE on the web... I guarantee you that it will change the perception of Bruce that his wife has tried to thrust upon the public for years

Rather quickly, his "kewl persona" and catchy pseudo philosophical one liners won't be as wonderful when you realize who Bruce Lee really was and what he was really about


you dont mean this book do you?
http://www.amazon.com/Unsettled-Matters-Life-Death-Bruce/dp/0965313204

[Hardwork108]

he believes for some strange reason that bawang is a fake account and is actually Dave Ross; which is interesting considering that I have exchanged e-mails, taiji photos and CHinese documents with bawang, have him as a FB friend, and will be meeting up with him in person (along w/Sanjnuo and Jamieson) in Spetember when I visit Toronto;

actually, I don't think he really believes it, it's just a somewhat played-out riff of his that he uses to dismiss anything bawang posts

That could be because of "Bawang"'s tendency to "appear" out of thin air, insulting and slandering me, when my conversation was with other parties, just like Dave Ross used to do, before he decided that pretending to ignore me, would be a better strategy than provoking me into showing him to be not as knowledgable as he projects himself to be, and even sometimes darn clueless...

Of course, Kansuke, which is another Dave Ross account, used to more or less do the same tactic, with me and other TCMA posters, specially new ones. A strategy aimed to put off actual TCMA posters from using this forum, so that our friend Dave could better sell his pseudo-kung fu kickboxing school.

So, you will appreciate my basis for suspicion.

Oh, let's not forget that some of "Bawang"'s posts are written in perfect English!!!

[lkfmdc]

he believes for some strange reason that bawang is a fake account and is actually Dave Ross; which is interesting considering that I have exchanged e-mails, taiji photos and CHinese documents with bawang, have him as a FB friend, and will be meeting up with him in person (along w/Sanjnuo and Jamieson) in Spetember when I visit Toronto;



It's funny how easily people with weak minds can convince themselves of conspiracies, don't you think? :rolleyes:

[Hardwork108]

It's funny how easily people with weak minds can convince themselves of conspiracies, don't you think? :rolleyes:

Seeing that this statement is from you, then I believe that it is the most ironic post made in this forum for the last 5 years.

I wonder if Gene has any special awards for this most ironic post?;)

[bawang]

colombians r poar
no monies
make magic flour

[Hardwork108]

colombians r poar
no monies
make magic flour

It seems that your education system has not failed you, as you seem to know all there is to know about Colombia.:rolleyes:

By the way, thanks to people like you, the Colombians who make the magic flour are very rich people...

[MightyB]

PS: if you wonder what Linda Lee's motivations are consider this

Dan Inosanto can't say Bruce's name anymore in interviews, he has to say "my teacher" because Linda SUED HIM

I have a friend that went to an Inosanto training camp and said that he was a phenomenal teacher. A person should be able to judge a teacher by his students. Judging by Inosanto, BL® was probably pretty good.

[rogue]

I think Inosanto would have been pretty good without BL as the guy has an incredible work ethic. I don't think there would be any JKD without Inosanto.

[lkfmdc]

I have a friend that went to an Inosanto training camp and said that he was a phenomenal teacher. A person should be able to judge a teacher by his students. Judging by Inosanto, BL® was probably pretty good.

Dan was a 3rd degree black belt in Kempo under Ed Parker, and studied Kali with virtually every living teacher in the US. IE he was already a pretty impressive martial artist....

And, as said already above, even if we say Bruce taught good stuff, doesn't make him a fighter

[teetsao]

hardwork, great post man. i am glad oyu posted about the "unsettled matters" i found it online for free. i am not a big bruce lee fan,but i am reading this as i want the truth, thanx again.

[Kung]

Don't know if bruce lee was the real deal, but I do know, if it wasnt for him, most of the schools here in the US wouldnt have been.

He made the avg American wanting to learn MA

[cerebus]

Ha ha, sorry man, but "Unsettled Matters" was written by Linda Lee's disgruntled ex-husband. To take his unfounded accusations as truth would be as mistaken as taking everything that Linda said about Bruce as the gospel truth... :p

[lkfmdc]

no reason to buy a book that has been on the internet for free for years

http://www.sanjosekenpo.com/UNSETTLEDMATTERS.pdf

[Hardwork108]

hardwork, great post man. i am glad oyu posted about the "unsettled matters" i found it online for free. i am not a big bruce lee fan,but i am reading this as i want the truth, thanx again.

Thank you, but aren't you referring to Lkfmdc's post, that mentioned the "unsettled matters"?

[bawang]

if it wasnt for him, most of the schools here in the US wouldnt have been.

He made the avg American wanting to learn MA
thats why i hate bruce lee

[lkfmdc]

Ha ha, sorry man, but "Unsettled Matters" was written by Linda Lee's disgruntled ex-husband. To take his unfounded accusations as truth would be as mistaken as taking everything that Linda said about Bruce as the gospel truth... :p

did Bruce Lee die naked in the bed of another woman (other than his wife)? YES

did Bruce Lee take steroids? YES

did Bruce Lee take hash? YES

was Bruce addicted to pain killers? YES

was Linda ****ed that her ex-husband put all this in a book? YES

but don't let Linda pull the cloth over your eyes. She has manipulated the truth, sued close friends and students of Lee's, tried to strong arm magazines and a lot of other nasty stuff

READ THE BOOK

[bawang]

to be fair, its not polite to smash her rice bowl

[lkfmdc]

to be fair, its not polite to smash her rice bowl

maybe someone should explain that to HER, since she sued pretty much all of Bruce Lee's students and prevents them from using his name

[taai gihk yahn]

maybe someone should explain that to HER, since she sued pretty much all of Bruce Lee's students and prevents them from using his name

:confused::confused::confused:how do u prevent someone from using the name of someone that they knew / studied with?

[lkfmdc]

:confused::confused::confused:how do u prevent someone from using the name of someone that they knew / studied with?

I guess you'd have to ask Dan, who now in all interviews never mentions Bruce's name, just "my teacher"

she got some real scum bag LA intellectual property lawyers involved and they went after everyone

[lkfmdc]

though, in retrospect, I'd love to know how she did it so we could stop a certain person from doing something similar LOL :D:p:D;):)

[rogue]

:confused::confused::confused:how do u prevent someone from using the name of someone that they knew / studied with?

BRUCE LEE® is a registered trademark of Bruce Lee Enterprises, LLC. The Bruce Lee name, image, likeness and all related indicia are ...

[Yao Sing]

Thank you, but aren't you referring to Lkfmdc's post, that mentioned the "unsettled matters"?

Lucas posted the link to a pdf of the book.

[lkfmdc]

BRUCE LEE® is a registered trademark of Bruce Lee Enterprises, LLC. The Bruce Lee name, image, likeness and all related indicia are ...

we are all about to be SUED :eek:

[bawang]

the book said bruce lee had one testicle... is that tru????

[Hardwork108]

Lucas posted the link to a pdf of the book.

Whoops, sorry.:o

Anyway, I have found the link and will be reading it in due course.

[lkfmdc]

the book said bruce lee had one testicle... is that tru????

insert Wen Hung Lo joke here :D

[cerebus]

did Bruce Lee die naked in the bed of another woman (other than his wife)? YES

did Bruce Lee take steroids? YES

did Bruce Lee take hash? YES

was Bruce addicted to pain killers? YES

was Linda ****ed that her ex-husband put all this in a book? YES

but don't let Linda pull the cloth over your eyes. She has manipulated the truth, sued close friends and students of Lee's, tried to strong arm magazines and a lot of other nasty stuff

READ THE BOOK

Hi Dave. I did read the book, quite awhile ago in fact. Actually, being a long-time fan of both martial arts and mysteries, I first began researching BL's life and death back around '78 and read most of the books and articles of the '70s & '80s that I had access to. I'm well aware of the good, the bad and the ugly of his life.

By the accounts of those who were present at the time, no, BL was not naked when he died. He was discussing an upcoming film deal with Raymond Chow and Betty Ting Pei. He had a headache and took a pain tablet then laid down for a nap and never woke up.

The autopsy and bloodwork showed that he did have THC (marijuana) in his system, but not steroids. That accusation comes entirely from Linda Lee's ex.

As for Linda Lee "pulling the cloth over my eyes"... well... come on now. I will be the first to say that anything coming from Linda is to be taken with a grain of salt and weighed carefully against what others who knew him have said. Perhaps that's what most people should try, rather than simplisticly being either just "for" or "against" him... ;)

[Hardwork108]

This thread is turning out to be very interesting, not least for the fact of Dave Ross's insistence in conversing with himself....:D

[lkfmdc]

in one of the MMA.tv threads, they put up 3 or 4 pics of Lee side by side over a relatively short period of time, that alone raises questions, but then you have the RECEIPTS for the steroids he bought (they were legal back then, you know that right?)... so the claims aren't "just linda's ex's"

Who do you think would have access to close info about Lee? Well the guy who lived in his house and had his stuff in his garage! Did he do it to pizz off Linda, hey, probably, but the book survived several legal challenges, in fact we just saw it is back in print, despite Linda's aggressive legal tactics

[lkfmdc]

as for the naked part, the initial police report had that, only to be "retracted" when the studio and his family went ape bonkers

and if you don't think he was giving the "little dragon" to Betty, come on.....

[rogue]

http://www.brucelee.com/html/leeway.html

Bruce Lee Enterprises' Licensing Division is tasked with the responsibility of preserving and perpetuating the life and legacy of Bruce Lee. We accomplish this by establishing partnerships with organizations offering products and services consistent with the desired branding and positioning of Bruce & Brandon Lee.

Registered as the successor-in-interest with the office of the Secretary of State of California, Bruce Lee Enterprises is owned and operated by members of the LEE family.

Please contact us today if you are interested in licensing opportunities with Bruce and/or Brandon Lee.

Bruce Lee’s signature style and awesome ability have made him one of only a handful of true icons that has stood the test of time and is recognized all over the world. Known for his powerful and dynamic brand of action and his super human physique and skill, he has evolved into the quintessential representation of confidence and wisdom. Like none other, Bruce Lee brings together both the east and west in a way that transcends the barriers of race and culture.

When you associate yourself with Bruce Lee, this is the legacy you become part of the legacy of a true hero.

and that's how they get you not to use BL's name.

[cerebus]

Who corroborated the claim about the receipts for the steroids (aside from Linda's ex)? He's the only one I've seen that claim (or so-called "evidence") from. Personally I would be more surprised if Lee hadn't experimented with them to some degree (he experimented with everything else that he felt might increase his strength, speed & martial abilities). I'd just never seen any evidence from sources other than the ex.

As for Lee being naked, I guess I must have read the "post-retraction" statement. Did you see the original statement yourself or is this something you heard from someone else?

Was BL screwing around on his wife? I'd find it hard to believe that he wasn't, but I've always disliked people pasting their beliefs of what "must" have happened onto someone as if they were corroborated facts.

But in the end, what does any of that have to do with whether or not BL was a real martial artist and a capable fighter? Nothing. It's all just stuff that people use to detract from the fact that he WAS a real and dedicated martial artist and a capable fighter.... and as flawed & imperfect a human being as any of us...

[lkfmdc]

The point is, the "fight stories" come from the same very unreliable people who have tried to make him a demi-G'd

[rogue]

Bingo!

9876543210

[teetsao]

i can assure you,even tough chuck norris made mention in his book, bruce lee did not use steroids. if he did he had no idea what to do with them or he got ripped off. i have personally used and still know people who use. the man never weighed more than 135 lbs. LOL, i assure you he never used steroids.

[taai gihk yahn]

That could be because of "Bawang"'s tendency to "appear" out of thin air, insulting and slandering me, when my conversation was with other parties,
LOL, he does that with pretty much everybody he disagrees with;


just like Dave Ross used to do, before he decided that pretending to ignore me,
last time I was at Dave's computer, he still had u on ignore; he only relates to what u post through quotes from other people;


would be a better strategy than provoking me into showing him to be not as knowledgable as he projects himself to be, and even sometimes darn clueless...
u can disagree w Dave's perspectives and dislike his m.o. of posting, but to call him "clueless" regarding TCMA is rather disingenuous;


Of course, Kansuke, which is another Dave Ross account, used to more or less do the same tactic, with me and other TCMA posters, specially new ones.
Kansuke isn't Dave either, although he does act like an asz for no apparent reason in many of his posts;


A strategy aimed to put off actual TCMA posters from using this forum,
what would be the point of "putting off" TCMA posters? when you think about it that makes no sense - how could that possibly benefit Dave?


so that our friend Dave could better sell his pseudo-kung fu kickboxing school.
oh - I see - that's why; well, Dave has never gotten a single student (AFAIK) from this forum; in fact, he now gets over 90% from a totally different internet site that doesn't involve his posting at all (ilovekickboxing.com - created and run by our friend Michael Parella / Lama Pai Sifu); as for "pseudo-kung fu", well, that's ur personal qualification - personally, he puts more of TCMA into practical application than the vast majority of so-called TCMA schools out there today - u just have to have an appreciation for the principles of Lama and then it's very easy to see how they translate into a lot of what he does; of course, he has added in non-TCMA things that Lama doesn't account for but that's evolution, like it or not;


So, you will appreciate my basis for suspicion.
I can appreciate the initial suspicion, but u perserverate after being given evidence to the contrary; also, AFAIK, u have never complained to or even checked with Gene regarding your suspicions, which would b the first ogical step, since multiple accounts are not alowed on the forum; why not do that and that shud satisfy ur conjecture


Oh, let's not forget that some of "Bawang"'s posts are written in perfect English!!!
because bawang DOES speak perfect English, lol - he does the "chop socky" schtick on purpose, lol; this is based on e-mails I've exchanged with him, which have included discussion on some of the research he has done on the Ming Dynasty Military Manual he references at times here (and which my sifu has also used as a reference); interestingly enuf many of his conclusions are similar to my teachers, so in my estimation at least his understanding of TCMA is valid;

[cerebus]

The point is, the "fight stories" come from the same very unreliable people who have tried to make him a demi-G'd

No, not all of them. There is a variety of corroboration that he fought a number of challenge matches in Hong Kong, aside from his boxing win. And the other matches (aside from the Wong Jackman match) were not held in "secret".

And look at his training methods. At a time when it was too often thought that forms training was all one needed to be "deadly", BL was concentrating all his training on conditioning and sparring, and was one of the earlier advocates in the US of full-contact sparring. Put him against another opponent of similar size who didn't do as much conditioning or sparring and what do YOU think will happen?

[TAO YIN]

So Bruce wasn't a fighter? I guess that means that 90 percent or more on here, are not fighters? Right?:confused:

[cerebus]

90 percent or more on here, are not fighters? Right?:confused:

This is probably very correct, though it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the thread topic...

[TAO YIN]

True Cerebrus,

I just wanted to make sure to give everyone who was giving Bruce shiit, shiit.

[rogue]

So Bruce wasn't a fighter? I guess that means that 90 percent or more on here, are not fighters? Right?:confused:

I'm certainly not. I spar somewhat hard , I train, I study, I drill, I get hurt, I trade techniques with others, but I sure don't go looking for fights, jump into a ring or enter combat zones. I don't consider myself a fighter even though I associate with them, and I don't have a problem with that.

I'd guess BL did though.

[Hardwork108]

LOL, he does that with pretty much everybody he disagrees with;

Well, he does that with me even when I make general points that most TCMA people would agree with. Can you imagine why?



last time I was at Dave's computer, he still had u on ignore;
You mean you actually checked?:eek:

Look, I know he is an old friend of yours, going back many years, so I understand what you are trying to do....


he only relates to what u post through quotes from other people;
Except for the fact that he sometimes "relates" to what I post even when others don't quote me...LOL!

I hope that you are not going to suggest that Dave Ross has developed psychic powers because of his special kick boxing training.;)



u can disagree w Dave's perspectives and dislike his m.o. of posting, but to call him "clueless" regarding TCMA is rather disingenuous;
I have made my conclusions about his degree of cluelessness based on his posts and his reactions to my, and other TCMA-sts' posts.



Kansuke isn't Dave either, although he does act like an asz for no apparent reason in many of his posts;
Kansuke (Unkokusai) IS Dave as well. I believe that he uses these forum characters to act in ways that would not reflect well on him, and that is just as well, because even using his official forum name, lkfmdc, his behavior has been less than befitting for a MA instructor.



what would be the point of "putting off" TCMA posters? when you think about it that makes no sense - how could that possibly benefit Dave?


oh - I see - that's why; well, Dave has never gotten a single student (AFAIK) from this forum; in fact, he now gets over 90% from a totally different internet site that doesn't involve his posting at all (ilovekickboxing.com - created and run by our friend Michael Parella / Lama Pai Sifu);
Interesting, because he seems to spend a lot of time here, a forum where he apparently does not get any students from.......

Also, his behavior and insecurities have no logical basis to them. I did not know who the h&ll he was before he started his hate campaign against me. You were there when he did that, so I am sure that you remember.


as for "pseudo-kung fu", well, that's ur personal qualification

Based on Dave's own posts and childishly insecure behavior!


- personally, he puts more of TCMA into practical application than the vast majority of so-called TCMA schools out there today

That is not saying much, even if it were true. He is more probably using CTS's name as marketing, and the TCMA/Lama Pai angle as a special selling point.


- u just have to have an appreciation for the principles of Lama

Actually, that would be interesting for me. Do you know any good books that are available on the internet?


and then it's very easy to see how they translate into a lot of what he does;

What he does is run a kick boxing gym that teaches San da. Whatever TCMA that he says he incorporates into his training program will at best be limited by the sporting rules and scenario in general, not unlike any San da school, including the world championship winning Chinese Sanda schools.


of course, he has added in non-TCMA things that Lama doesn't account for but that's evolution, like it or not;
Well, it seems that CTS did pretty well without those evolutions.;)

Having said that, I will add that the non-TCMA things may be beneficial in the sporting context of what he is teaching.



I can appreciate the initial suspicion, but u perserverate after being given evidence to the contrary;
Sorry, but I have not been given evidence to the contrary. All I have been given are statements and perhaps even opinions by people who are mainly Ross's friends.



also, AFAIK, u have never complained to or even checked with Gene regarding your suspicions, which would b the first ogical step, since multiple accounts are not alowed on the forum; why not do that and that shud satisfy ur conjecture
The reason I did not officially complain to Gene is that I know that he reads the posts here. I also know that it is difficult to prove any such case when the guilty party is using multiple computers.


because bawang DOES speak perfect English, lol - he does the "chop socky" schtick on purpose, lol; this is based on e-mails I've exchanged with him, which have included discussion on some of the research he has done on the Ming Dynasty Military Manual he references at times here (and which my sifu has also used as a reference); interestingly enuf many of his conclusions are similar to my teachers, so in my estimation at least his understanding of TCMA is valid;

Yet, for a perfect English speaking, TCMA scholar, our friend "Bawang" attacks my posts, while slandering my forum name by implying that I do not know about the TCMA's and bluntly calling me a LIAR, while his "qualifications", or at least what you suggest them to be, should mean that he knows better than making such accusations.

So, one must wonder about his motives................

In short, his MO is very similar that of Dave Ross (lkfmdc) and his other persona, Kansuke, formerly Unkokusai!!!

I am also aware of the fact that h&ll would freeze over before you would come to this forum and incriminate Dave by agreeing with my suspicions, or anyone else's for that matter, specially if that would mean his banning from this forum.

You are a close friend of his after all.

[Faruq]

Now I heard on a Paul Vunak DVD that Dan didn't even know of the existence of Philipino martial arts until Bruce told him, lol. I also saw Dan say in a clip on youtube somewhere he was an "American Philipino", and had never been to the Philippines.


Dan was a 3rd degree black belt in Kempo under Ed Parker, and studied Kali with virtually every living teacher in the US. IE he was already a pretty impressive martial artist....

And, as said already above, even if we say Bruce taught good stuff, doesn't make him a fighter

[Faruq]

The only thing is that he probably is a native English speaker....;)

LOL! I had an inkling....

[Faruq]

he believes for some strange reason that bawang is a fake account and is actually Dave Ross; which is interesting considering that I have exchanged e-mails, taiji photos and CHinese documents with bawang, have him as a FB friend, and will be meeting up with him in person (along w/Sanjnuo and Jamieson) in Spetember when I visit Toronto;

actually, I don't think he really believes it, it's just a somewhat played-out riff of his that he uses to dismiss anything bawang posts


LOL, Bawang is a wild man! I'd love to see what he actually looks like. You should post a picture of him. Only I fear for your personal safety when you visit him after all of his...ehem...interesting posts...

[taai gihk yahn]

Well, he does that with me even when I make general points that most TCMA people would agree with. Can you imagine why?
yes I can, and as it is, I happen to agree with him about most of what he states; I just have no interest in engaging you (or anyone else) in that regard, because there's really no point: I have my personal practice, I am more than comfortable with it such as it is, and whether you or anyone else has any issue with it is of no concern to me, nor do I have any interest in trying to convince anyone else that I am right and they are wrong; but bawang is young and a bit piszed off about the state of tcma in general, so he does speak out;


You mean you actually checked?:eek:
I do visit Dave's school when I'm in the area from time to time;


Look, I know he is an old friend of yours, going back many years, so I understand what you are trying to do....
actually, not trying to do anything - it's just that you keep asserting something that i happen to know is not true; even if Dave was not my friend, I would point it out;


Except for the fact that he sometimes "relates" to what I post even when others don't quote me...LOL!
can you provide a specific example of this? it's easy to say, and in fact you say it about everyone who states they have u on ignore; it seems strange that everyone who states it does not in fact do it...


I have made my conclusions about his degree of cluelessness based on his posts and his reactions to my, and other TCMA-sts' posts.
that's pretty one-sided - many of his posts deal with TCMA principles and practice at a level the clearly indicates he has significant knowlege; many of them are also rather puerile, but that's his sily side...however, if u want to read some of his stuff that's a bit more to the point in regards to his TCMA knowledge, if you look around the internet, there are several articles of his discussing lama principles in detail, these woud give u a much better idea of what his knowledge base in regards to TCMA consists of;


Kansuke (Unkokusai) IS Dave as well. I believe that he uses these forum characters to act in ways that would not reflect well on him, and that is just as well, because even using his official forum name, lkfmdc, his behavior has been less than befitting for a MA instructor.
that wud seem illogical that he behaves in a way that u think reflects poorly on him as an instructor and then to create a personna where he behaves even more poorly? also, why is a MA instructor beholden to some set of abstract moral criteria just because he's a martial arts instructor?


Interesting, because he seems to spend a lot of time here, a forum where he apparently does not get any students from.......
a lot of people spend a lot of time here without looking to get students, myself included; really, Dave is getting swamped w/new students bec of the iovekickboxing thing he's got going - there wud b absolutely no point in his coming on here looking for students; especially as most posters here are not in NY


Also, his behavior and insecurities have no logical basis to them. I did not know who the h&ll he was before he started his hate campaign against me. You were there when he did that, so I am sure that you remember.
that's Dave; there's as much rhyme and reason to who he is and how he posts as there is to anyone else; personally,knowing him, I can understand why he posts the way he does, and i can also understand why many people are put off by them; Dave needs to b taken with a grain of salt - he's the first to agree with that;


That is not saying much, even if it were true. He is more probably using CTS's name as marketing, and the TCMA/Lama Pai angle as a special selling point.
lol - he doesn't even mention CTS / Lama anywhere in any of his marketing, and hasn't for some time; fact is, most people in the MA market looking for a school don't know or care about CTS or Lama, that is a very small select portion of the population;


Actually, that would be interesting for me. Do you know any good books that are available on the internet?
no, sorry; the best stuff written on lama is by Dave


What he does is run a kick boxing gym that teaches San da. Whatever TCMA that he says he incorporates into his training program will at best be limited by the sporting rules and scenario in general, not unlike any San da school, including the world championship winning Chinese Sanda schools.
of course it's limited by the rules when you are competing; but u can train it in both contexts - the key principle is that u are trianing against resisting opponents, which is what establishes the proper context, whcih I believe, and TCMA history as well as modern research r on the same wagon here, is more important than content;


Well, it seems that CTS did pretty well without those evolutions.;)
actually he incorporated boxing into his overall approach and liked it a lot; but also his primary evolution was Lama, which was a non-brdiging style relative to most of what was being practiced around him by other southern stylists, so in a sense he evolved his TCMA via something intrinsically non-tcma at its inception;


Having said that, I will add that the non-TCMA things may be beneficial in the sporting context of what he is teaching.
his sport is a lot closer to reality than what most people claim as reality-based


Sorry, but I have not been given evidence to the contrary. All I have been given are statements and perhaps even opinions by people who are mainly Ross's friends.
well, your evidence is based on exacty the same sort of opinions, formed by comparison between people who u think post in similar manner; I am giving you specific reasons why these assumptions are incorect; of course, I can't prove any of that to you due to the limitation of the medium, so I understand that you do not consider what I tell u as evidence per se, and that's ok;


The reason I did not officially complain to Gene is that I know that he reads the posts here. I also know that it is difficult to prove any such case when the guilty party is using multiple computers.
Gene is very laisez-faire; unless someone brings something to his attention, he will read it and let it go (unless it breaks forum rules, which this doesn't); so if u really want an answer, u will have to ask him
as for multiple computers, that wudn't hide using the same IP address - unless u r suggesting Dave has 3 different IP's (which is really funny to consider, since until this last year he was still using dial-up at the school!)


Yet, for a perfect English speaking, TCMA scholar, our friend "Bawang" attacks my posts, while slandering my forum name by implying that I do not know about the TCMA's and bluntly calling me a LIAR, while his "qualifications", or at least what you suggest them to be, should mean that he knows better than making such accusations.
So, one must wonder about his motives................
bawang is not a scholar but he has done more research than most people do; anyway, why don't u ask him, and he can give u his reasons; I am just going based on my direct interaction with him off-forum; although he and i do share a number of views that are in direct contradiction to your opinion - since he's a bit more volatile than I am, I guess he is expressing his contention about your perspective;


In short, his MO is very similar that of Dave Ross (lkfmdc) and his other persona, Kansuke, formerly Unkokusai!!!
i agree that their mo's r very similar insofar as they share a certain posting tone; however, there r many other people on here w/mo's similar to other posters; that is not a reason to consider them to b the same person; I can understand ur frustration with being attacked for, in ur opinion, no reason, especialy by multiple posters; but it doesn't change the reality that they r not the same person;


I am also aware of the fact that h&ll would freeze over before you would come to this forum and incriminate Dave by agreeing with my suspicions, or anyone else's for that matter, specially if that would mean his banning from this forum.
You are a close friend of his after all.
that's because there's nothing to incriminate him with; the fact is that ur assumptions r unfounded, and I am explaining why: whereas u are basing ur opinions on conjecture, mine are based on direct experience, and I am just pointing that out; of course I can't expect that u would believe me, and that's ok, I can understand that u would not be inclined to do so, which is why I am not getting on ur case about it, I am just pointing stuff out;

[taai gihk yahn]

LOL, Bawang is a wild man! I'd love to see what he actually looks like. You should post a picture of him. Only I fear for your personal safety when you visit him after all of his...ehem...interesting posts...

he's a medium-small build college kid (early 20's?), as far as i can tell from the vids I've seen of him; and his english is fine except when he don't want it to be;

i think he's funny as hell, and rather insiteful for someone without very many years, although he is also very passionate about his training, so he has limited tolerance for what he doesn't agree with...

[goju]

did Bruce Lee die naked in the bed of another woman (other than his wife)? YES

did Bruce Lee take steroids? YES

did Bruce Lee take hash? YES

was Bruce addicted to pain killers? YES

was Linda ****ed that her ex-husband put all this in a book? YES

but don't let Linda pull the cloth over your eyes. She has manipulated the truth, sued close friends and students of Lee's, tried to strong arm magazines and a lot of other nasty stuff

READ THE BOOK

lol how do you have the slightest clue about any of this? you werent there!


its obvious the guy who wrote that has an underhanded angenda in bad mouthing lee but my question is why do you? Because you are clearly ready to jump on the band wagon of any rumour if it makes him look bad redardless of whether or not there is a shred of proof over it, :rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

Taai Gihk Yaan

http://socialmediaanswers.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/troll-web.jpg

it's amazing that he continues to insist that everyone who thinks he is a tool is ME :D

the reason the entire forum thinks he is an idiot is because HE IS!

[rogue]

Now I heard on a Paul Vunak DVD that Dan didn't even know of the existence of Philipino martial arts until Bruce told him, lol. I also saw Dan say in a clip on youtube somewhere he was an "American Philipino", and had never been to the Philippines.

I believe it was Ed Parker that suggested Dan look into FMA, and Inosanto's dad or uncle got him hooked up with an instructor.

A lot of younger guys fail to realize that BL wasn't the big dog in the 60's martial arts world. He didn't compete, didn't have a commercial school, didn't produce any champions, and didn't put on tournaments or shows. The big names were Ed Parker, Joon Rhee and other Koreans, Joe Lewis, Aaron Banks and a lot of others who were hustling up business for their schools. You could say that Lee lucked out in that there was a burgeoning martial arts business and scene already in existence for him to network into. Without those other guys I doubt BL would have become BL.

[TAO YIN]

So, everyone's fighters???

There will never be another Bruce Lee...LMAO.

[Hardwork108]

Part 1


yes I can, and as it is, I happen to agree with him about most of what he states; I just have no interest in engaging you (or anyone else) in that regard, because there's really no point: I have my personal practice, I am more than comfortable with it such as it is, and whether you or anyone else has any issue with it is of no concern to me, nor do I have any interest in trying to convince anyone else that I am right and they are wrong;
I believe that you misunderstood what I was saying. He attacks me even when I am not making any of my usual "controversial" points. That shows me that he is insecure and with some sort of chip on his shoulder, just like Dave Ross, I might add.


but bawang is young and a bit piszed off about the state of tcma in general, so he does speak out;

Well, I am piszed about the state of TCMAs in general too. So perhaps, Mr "Bawang" should focus more on the relaxing aspects, or dare I say, the INTERNAL aspects of his tai chi training to cool himself down, and then once he achieves this he can go back to his tai chi weight training.........



I do visit Dave's school when I'm in the area from time to time;
....And you make a habit of checking who he has on ignore?:eek:



actually, not trying to do anything - it's just that you keep asserting something that i happen to know is not true; even if Dave was not my friend, I would point it out;
the question is wether you, his close friend, would point it out if what I say was "true in your opinion"?



can you provide a specific example of this? it's easy to say, and in fact you say it about everyone who states they have u on ignore; it seems strange that everyone who states it does not in fact do it...
Yet, he has and so has Sanjuro, when he was playing the same game. Actually, you have too...LOL!

Anyway, there have been specific instances in the past that Dave has referred to things that he would only have known, if he had read my posts. I am sure you appreciate the fact that I can't remember in which threads those occurred.

Anyway, if you are really ignoring someone then why read other people's quotation of what they say, and then go on to ANSWER them? LOL!

So, actually I am not being ignored by this rather disturbed character. It is more of a game of his to put himself on some imaginary high ground by saying that he is ignoring me, which is ironinc because he was the one who started trouble with me by using blatant lies and slanderous statements, Then, when I reacted and showed him for what he was, he started playing this game...LOL!



that's pretty one-sided - many of his posts deal with TCMA principles and practice at a level the clearly indicates he has significant knowlege; many of them are also rather puerile, but that's his sily side...however, if u want to read some of his stuff that's a bit more to the point in regards to his TCMA knowledge, if you look around the internet, there are several articles of his discussing lama principles in detail, these woud give u a much better idea of what his knowledge base in regards to TCMA consists of;
With all due respect, anyone who had access to someone like CTS can absorb enough info and then re-write and come across as knowledgable.

I will however, find and read his material, out of interest in the style of Lama Pai.



that wud seem illogical that he behaves in a way that u think reflects poorly on him as an instructor and then to create a personna where he behaves even more poorly?

Perhaps, his behavior as Dave Ross/lkfmdc is not seen by him to be poorly. IMHO, we are talking about man that has very low standards when it comes to moral and respectful behavior, and I am being blatently HONEST here!



also, why is a MA instructor beholden to some set of abstract moral criteria just because he's a martial arts instructor?
Believe it or not, many TCMA schools have their morality, sometimes it is written, while sometimes it is implied. The truth of the matter is that I have never come across a TCMA teacher, who has a low level moral criteria like Dave Ross, but then I doubt many real masters would see Dave Ross as a person who has achieved TCMA mastery, and lets face it, he has been practicing long enough to have become a master, or an authentic or potent sifu.



a lot of people spend a lot of time here without looking to get students, myself included;
I agree.

[Hardwork108]

Part 2


really, Dave is getting swamped w/new students bec of the iovekickboxing thing he's got going - there wud b absolutely no point in his coming on here looking for students; especially as most posters here are not in NY
Yet, he has been known to promote his school through video clips. He has been known to promote his schools MMA approach. He has been known to peddle his kickboxing dvds.......



that's Dave; there's as much rhyme and reason to who he is and how he posts as there is to anyone else; personally,knowing him, I can understand why he posts the way he does, and i can also understand why many people are put off by them; Dave needs to b taken with a grain of salt - he's the first to agree with that;
You understand because you are best friends.



lol - he doesn't even mention CTS / Lama anywhere in any of his marketing, and hasn't for some time; fact is,
Well, he seems to use CTS to market himself, at least here in the forum. I mean, I know that he was one of CTS's students, and so do most people who post here. Maybe we can call it a subliminal marketing?:D


most people in the MA market looking for a school don't know or care about CTS or Lama, that is a very small select portion of the population;
And that would put doubts in my mind on how much Lama Pai he actually teaches to his kickboxing students.


no, sorry; the best stuff written on lama is by Dave
That might just partially explain the sad state of the TCMAs. LOL



of course it's limited by the rules when you are competing; but u can train it in both contexts - the key principle is that u are trianing against resisting opponents, which is what establishes the proper context, whcih I believe, and TCMA history as well as modern research r on the same wagon here, is more important than content;

A lot of TCMA schools teach in such a manner, but not being kickboxing/sports tourament oriented schools, they maintain a lot more essence of their art than the Dave Ross's of this world.


actually he incorporated boxing into his overall approach and liked it a lot; but also his primary evolution was Lama, which was a non-brdiging style relative to most of what was being practiced around him by other southern stylists, so in a sense he evolved his TCMA via something intrinsically non-tcma at its inception;
I knew that he had boxing and judo knowledge, but I doubt that he used those to kill the people he was known to have killed.

Also, I guess when one masters a given style of kung fu then it is really easier to incorporate non-TCMAs, or irrelevant styles, if you will, without losing one's KUNG FU.


his sport is a lot closer to reality than what most people claim as reality-based
But could'nt you say that about all MMA schools?



well, your evidence is based on exacty the same sort of opinions, formed by comparison between people who u think post in similar manner; I am giving you specific reasons why these assumptions are incorect; of course, I can't prove any of that to you due to the limitation of the medium, so I understand that you do not consider what I tell u as evidence per se, and that's ok;
I see your point, but I also understand that you wouldn't go against your friend no matter how you saw the real truth.

I still say that he similarities of the posting style are uncanny.


Gene is very laisez-faire; unless someone brings something to his attention, he will read it and let it go (unless it breaks forum rules, which this doesn't); so if u really want an answer, u will have to ask him
Well, I believe that Gene is a lot more vigilant than many people think he is.



as for multiple computers, that wudn't hide using the same IP address - unless u r suggesting Dave has 3 different IP's (which is really funny to consider, since until this last year he was still using dial-up at the school!)
Hey, even people like Dave may have the capacity to evolve, and surprise us all.;)


bawang is not a scholar but he has done more research than most people do;
You know, sometimes one's research is effected by one's own biases.....


anyway, why don't u ask him, and he can give u his reasons;
LOL...The last thing he will do is give me reason, and that is because he has no reason to act the way he does, except for a chip on his shoulder, which happens to be related to another one of Dave Ross's MOs.


I am just going based on my direct interaction with him off-forum; although he and i do share a number of views that are in direct contradiction to your opinion
Look, even you don't disagree with me on every TCMA training aspect, and I suspect that you appreciate that I do have valid training in the arts.


since he's a bit more volatile than I am,
Perhaps you should inform him that to achieve the calmness that tai chi requires, he should train to down tune his volatile temper....?


I guess he is expressing his contention about your perspective;
Again, he often "expresses his contention" when I am talking about general, non-controversial aspects of TCMA training. This means that the person who behaves this way is not only clueless regarding relatively simple aspects of tCMA training but also that he has a chip on his shoulder, and who else has a chip on his shoulder, in my regards? Oh yes,Dave Ross.



i agree that their mo's r very similar insofar as they share a certain posting tone; however, there r many other people on here w/mo's similar to other posters; that is not a reason to consider them to b the same person;
Yet, the connections, at least to me, seem pretty strong. Of course, the possibility that different emotionally disturbed people, with chips on their shoulder, will have similar MOs, always exists. So, who knows, there might be small chance that I am dealing with two or three different nuts?


I can understand ur frustration with being attacked for, in ur opinion, no reason, especialy by multiple posters; but it doesn't change the reality that they r not the same person;
I am not really frustrated as such. The fact is that this forum, in reality, is a MMA forum, so one will expect to be attacked by clueless kick boxers, even kung fu tagged ones.



that's because there's nothing to incriminate him with; the fact is that ur assumptions r unfounded, and I am explaining why: whereas u are basing ur opinions on conjecture, mine are based on direct experience, and I am just pointing that out; of course I can't expect that u would believe me, and that's ok, I can understand that u would not be inclined to do so, which is why I am not getting on ur case about it, I am just pointing stuff out;

Well, the way I see it, even if in your opinion I was right, you would still not "betray" your close friend.

[Hardwork108]

Taai Gihk Yaan

http://socialmediaanswers.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/troll-web.jpg

Hey, don't bite the hand that feeds you!

[QUOTE=lkfmdc]it's amazing that he continues to insist that everyone who thinks he is a tool is ME :D
That may be because the "everyone" in question are kung fu-clueless MMA-ists, such as yourself, and when you have "conversed" with one, then the rest all look the same?


the reason the entire forum thinks he is an idiot is because HE IS!
Yes, do continue to lie and slander, as this kind of behavior very befitting of a pseudo sifu, such as yourself. LOL!

Thank you for validating what I have been saying about you all along, and proving my point. :)

[rogue]

Hardwork, you really don't need to quote every single part of a post you're rebutting, especially if you're rebuttal is short and pointless. Just the highlights please.

[Frost]

Hardwork, you really don't need to quote every single part of a post you're rebutting, especially if you're rebuttal is short and pointless. Just the highlights please.

oh come on its not like he has anything else to do.....like go train or anything like that :)

[Dragonzbane76]

http://tech-clarity.com/clarityonplm/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/flogging-dead-horse.bmp

[Yao Sing]

A lot of younger guys fail to realize that BL wasn't the big dog in the 60's martial arts world. He didn't compete, didn't have a commercial school, didn't produce any champions, and didn't put on tournaments or shows. The big names were Ed Parker, Joon Rhee and other Koreans, Joe Lewis, Aaron Banks and a lot of others who were hustling up business for their schools. You could say that Lee lucked out in that there was a burgeoning martial arts business and scene already in existence for him to network into. Without those other guys I doubt BL would have become BL.

And his early films were thrown in with the rest of the Chinese chop-sockies that were already playing the Saturday night drive-in, the most popular being Lo Leih in "5 Fingers of Death".

He just came along at the right time when MA was getting popular and more well known and mainstream.

[Faruq]

Didn't Bruce train Joe Lewis, Chuck Norris and some other top guys for a while? Though I have no way of knowing whether it's true or not, I thought I remembered after his training they became tournament champions.



I believe it was Ed Parker that suggested Dan look into FMA, and Inosanto's dad or uncle got him hooked up with an instructor.

A lot of younger guys fail to realize that BL wasn't the big dog in the 60's martial arts world. He didn't compete, didn't have a commercial school, didn't produce any champions, and didn't put on tournaments or shows. The big names were Ed Parker, Joon Rhee and other Koreans, Joe Lewis, Aaron Banks and a lot of others who were hustling up business for their schools. You could say that Lee lucked out in that there was a burgeoning martial arts business and scene already in existence for him to network into. Without those other guys I doubt BL would have become BL.

[lkfmdc]

Didn't Bruce train Joe Lewis, Chuck Norris and some other top guys for a while? Though I have no way of knowing whether it's true or not, I thought I remembered after his training they became tournament champions.

train? NO

worked out with them, yes. The Lee people try to take credit for Joe Lewis, which is a joke really

[Lucas]

i could totally take bruce lee in a sword fight.

[teetsao]

i finished the "unsettled matters" yesterday. i must say i think it is probably closer to the trutht han anything else ever writtten on b.l. i can say i did see some bias from the author. the whole thing with the steroids kept getting to me,as he kept trying to say bruce lee was using anabolic steroids. as i said in a previous post ,i dont beleive it because i have had alot of experience with their use. you can't use them and only weigh 125-130lbs at 5'6" and if you look at b.l. measurements in his hey day,his upper arm was measured at 11", LOL thats the size of my wrist. even if he did use diuretics as the man claimed,he couldnt have done it for lonbg or he would have suffered injury after injury,and he wouldnt have hhad the strength people claim he did,as water retention is whats helps in strength gain. i do however believe and all the facts point to maybe he was abusing cortisol(a steroid) which could have lead to his early demise. back to the anabolics thing, anyone can get ripped,but not everyone can get big. b.l. was only ripped,he was the size of an average american 9th grader,so he was nowhere near "big",and this can be easily done without any anabolic steroids. i think this guy just threw that acusation in there to take away from lees hard work and dedication to working out. he made the statement in the book,"without the steroids he was no longer the king of kung fu", LOL, thats like saying steroids made mark mcguire hit homeruns, its just nonsense. the rest of the book about lees personality i had heard before so that is beleiveable,along with his lifestyle,as he was a product of the 60s' on the west coast of america,it was just bound to happen. like him or not,he did help kung fu in ways,and is now hurting it in ways,but he did change things and he is an icon.

[TenTigers]

different steroids have different effects-ex: Dianabol for strength and size, Winstrol for not as much strength and size, but more for cutting.
I am guessing, if Lee took steroids at all, then he would have taken oral steroids rather than injectables, just as he preferred to chew cannabis and not smoke it. These are the little "lies" we tell to ourselves to rationalize doing something that is detrimental to ourselves.

[Lucas]

i think over all the positive effects of the icon of bruce lee far outweigh any personal short commings the man had.

how many of us will be timeless through out the entire world?

that is quite an accomplishment to do so without having to commit genocide or take over a country.

[teetsao]

10 tigers, big misconception, all anabolic steroids do the same thing. some have more androgenic side effects than others. winstrol taken in the same miligram dosage as dbol would act the same way. both are derivatives of testosterone. winstrol efective dosage is 10-25 mg a day. dbol effective dosage is higher same as anadrol,it is supplied in 50mg dosages,winstrol is suppllied originally in 2.5mg-5mg dosage. now take 10 winstrols and you get alot more androgenic side effects. people just generally take winstrol while on a cutting cycle as it doesnt cause water retention in effective dosage,but you will get just as much strength gain on winstrol as dbol. however i dont want to turn this into a steroid tutorial. i just dont beleive he used them.
lucas you are right,he will be timeless,i am just glad someone wrote and made him much more human than the here-for-to "invincible,superhero" bruce lee,most americans think he was.

[Faruq]

That's wild! LOL Are these youtube vids? You gotta post the links!


he's a medium-small build college kid (early 20's?), as far as i can tell from the vids I've seen of him; and his english is fine except when he don't want it to be;

i think he's funny as hell, and rather insiteful for someone without very many years, although he is also very passionate about his training, so he has limited tolerance for what he doesn't agree with...

[goju]

how does this supposed to make bruce look bad?

GASP! HE TOOK ROIDS!!!?? OH NO!

:eek: HE MAY HAVE CHEATED ON HIS WIFE!

i heard he once came upon and anthill and kicked it over and then proceeded to squish all those poor little ants!

THE MONSTER!!!!!!
:eek:

[Lucas]

how does this supposed to make bruce look bad?

GASP! HE TOOK ROIDS!!!?? OH NO!

:eek: HE MAY HAVE CHEATED ON HIS WIFE!

i heard he once came upon and anthill and kicked it over and then proceeded to squish all those poor little ants!

THE MONSTER!!!!!!
:eek:

thats all hearsay, i have on good information he actually taught all those poor ants wingchun

[Hardwork108]

Hardwork, you really don't need to quote every single part of a post you're rebutting,
I like being thorough, you see....:D


especially if you're rebuttal is short and pointless. Just the highlights please.
Well, my rebuttal reflects the posts of the people I am rebutting. You must realize that trying to discuss actual TCMA topics with these kung fu-clueless MMA knuckleheads, equates with attempting to discuss astro physics with a bunch of chimpanzees.....

[taai gihk yahn]

thats all hearsay, i have on good information he actually taught all those poor ants wingchun

now THAT'S slander right there!

[Hardwork108]

http://tech-clarity.com/clarityonplm/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/flogging-dead-horse.bmp

Christ, now you are accusing me of beating you with a stick. For the last time, I am not into cruelty to animals, so no need to worry about your safety......

[Hardwork108]

Forgetting the forum's clueless MMA trolls, for the moment and going back to the subject matter of the thread, I have to say that I read most of the book until early morning today. I found it very interesting and I agree with teetsao that it is probably closer to the truth of Bruce Lee's life and character, than any other literature that I have come across.

I am looking forward to finishing it later on today.

[dimethylsea]

how does this supposed to make bruce look bad?

GASP! HE TOOK ROIDS!!!?? OH NO!



If someone says "I can do this.. do it like me.. I'm the greatest!" and I'm like.. but you are geared up and .. oh crap.. you just died of medical complications from the roid use.. you can bet your last dollar that's not someone whose methods I'm going to put much stock in.


Now... his student Dan Inosanto.. now old.. smiling, grinning, teaching. Real good human being. Him.. his methods I'll be willing to put some stock in.

Proof is in the pudding.

[goju]

ive heard lucas draws lewd cartoons in public restrooms!

ive heard hard work does mma! :eek:

ive heard Gene Ching makes everyone in the office address him as "GENE THE MERICLESS" and none of his co workers are allowed to look him directly in the eyes!

ive heard sanjuro was a stunt double for the hobbits in the lord of the rings movies!

ive heard dale franks was the shooter behind the grassy knoll!!

ive heard bawang is really tom cruise!

[rogue]

train? NO

worked out with them, yes. The Lee people try to take credit for Joe Lewis, which is a joke really

The following is my favorite...
Starting in 1967, Lewis began training privately with Bruce Lee. Lee had Lewis test out his theories of fighting at tournaments. As Lee's "Test Tube" Lewis was unbeatable, spawning the nucleus of kickboxing as we know it today.

If BL's theories were so good why not get one of his average students to test them out rather than a guy who was at the top of the game?


http://www.bruceleedivinewind.com/joelewis.html

http://www.cityonfire.com/unknown/interviews/lewis/index.htm

[Dragonzbane76]

Well, my rebuttal reflects the posts of the people I am rebutting. You must realize that trying to discuss actual TCMA topics with these kung fu-clueless MMA knuckleheads, equates with attempting to discuss astro physics with a bunch of chimpanzees.....

Then DON'T.

[Dragonzbane76]

Christ, now you are accusing me of beating you with a stick. For the last time, I am not into cruelty to animals, so no need to worry about your safety......
__________________

you couldn't beat your way outta butter, so i'm not that worried. :p

[Hardwork108]

The following is my favorite...
Starting in 1967, Lewis began training privately with Bruce Lee. Lee had Lewis test out his theories of fighting at tournaments. As Lee's "Test Tube" Lewis was unbeatable, spawning the nucleus of kickboxing as we know it today.

If BL's theories were so good why not get one of his average students to test them out rather than a guy who was at the top of the game?


http://www.bruceleedivinewind.com/joelewis.html

http://www.cityonfire.com/unknown/interviews/lewis/index.htm

What is ironic to me is that a lot of today's MMA people use Bruce Lee, as an example of their methodology, or even as an icon.

On the other hand, many (sometimes kung fu-tagged) MMA-ists do criticize him, but again, ironically, they have more in common with him than they could ever hope to have, with a genuine TCMA-ist.

Isn't the world a confused place?:D

[Lucas]

ive heard lucas draws lewd cartoons in public restrooms!

ive heard hard work does mma! :eek:

ive heard Gene Ching makes everyone in the office address him as "GENE THE MERICLESS" and none of his co workers are allowed to look him directly in the eyes!

ive heard sanjuro was a stunt double for the hobbits in the lord of the rings movies!

ive heard dale franks was the shooter behind the grassy knoll!!

ive heard bawang is really tom cruise!

All true. And I'm a **** good artist. :D

[ghostexorcist]

I happened to find the free online version of Unsettled Matters independently from the links provided--unbeknownst to be at the time--earlier in this thread. I haven't read very much (17 pages to be exact), but I am thoroughly impressed thus far. I think I might print it out and bind it with my super-stapler. I'm not a big fan of reading stuff online because it hurts my eyes. Not to mention, I would rather have a physical book in my hands anyway.

When I first read about the book on here, I looked it up on Amazon. Some idiot is trying to sell a signed copy for almost $300! I'll pass. The free copy suits me just find.

I've got the book on Yip Man too, although I haven't read it. I'll probably read these two back-to-back.

[Hardwork108]

It is around 4 am here in the city of Cali, in Colombia. I have just finished reading the book. I really found it fascinating. Of course, the book raises very serious questions in regards to Bruce Lee's death.

Murder or not?

[taai gihk yahn]

It is around 4 am here in the city of Cali, in Colombia. I have just finished reading the book. I really found it fascinating. Of course, the book raises very serious questions in regards to Bruce Lee's death.

Murder or not?

conspiracy, of course!;)

[Hardwork108]

conspiracy, of course!;)

You must admit that the book raises a few serious questions, that is, if the "facts" the author reports are true, in which case it could be classified as a conspiracy, and believe me the world is full of them.

[Chief_Suicide]

I like Bruce Lee. He's an icon. More of a Hollywood icon than a martial arts icon to me, but an icon. I own a pair of nun-chucks because of my older brother and because of Bruce Lee. I have all his films. Including a lot of the Brucesploitation films with Bruce Li. I think his actions in those movies are cool. Not realistic, but cool to watch.

I read Unsettled Matters a few years ago, and I read through it again when it was posted on this thread. I have a few issues with what Tom Bleecker wrote.

1. cryptorchidism does not cause people to be 'small' in life. Not anything I've ever seen or heard of, or googled.
a. It can have psychological effects on people, but not everyone. Not everyone who has the issue suffers from short-man's disease. Bleeker is doing some serious speculating here.
b. Some famous people are 5'7" just like Bruce Lee. Al pacino, Tom Cruise. It hasn't caused them to shake fists at other stars of their day. (Ok, I don't know that for a fact, but come on).

2. Bleeker married Bruce's wife. If Bleeker wants to talk about 'psychological issues', than this one is HUGE on Bleeker's part. How does that effect what he thinks of Bruce? How Bruce treated her? How he 'compares' to Bruce. Now that COULD cause a person to write many things not based in fact, but on emotion.



Bruce wasn't perfect. Non of us are. I don't like the way Bruce is sold sometimes. Father of MMA, Greatest Martial Artist, all that jazz. I think what he WAS is less tangible but still real. He was a icon, an influence to millions. He influenced people so profoundly, I don't know if his generation can or will write his best biography.

[SPJ]

de myth

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mcl81ldNODc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqxnhmeMdJ4&feature=related

it is only a movie.

the kittie witnessed the whole thing.

no other people around to prove that this fight happened.

a lot he says and she says.

mythology thus formed.

witness has the final say or de myth.

[Scott R. Brown]

de myth

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mcl81ldNODc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqxnhmeMdJ4&feature=related

it is only a movie.

the kittie witnessed the whole thing.

no other people around to prove that this fight happened.

a lot he says and she says.

mythology thus formed.

witness has the final say or de myth.

What about the dead body?:confused:

[Faruq]

What book on Yip Man? (link please?)



I happened to find the free online version of Unsettled Matters independently from the links provided--unbeknownst to be at the time--earlier in this thread. I haven't read very much (17 pages to be exact), but I am thoroughly impressed thus far. I think I might print it out and bind it with my super-stapler. I'm not a big fan of reading stuff online because it hurts my eyes. Not to mention, I would rather have a physical book in my hands anyway.

When I first read about the book on here, I looked it up on Amazon. Some idiot is trying to sell a signed copy for almost $300! I'll pass. The free copy suits me just find.

I've got the book on Yip Man too, although I haven't read it. I'll probably read these two back-to-back.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Bruce was probably a really good fighter for a non-professional and an innovator. However, a lot of what gets said about him is nothing more than a legend built up to sell JKD school memberships and books.

[Faruq]

Obviously, not. It was the dim mak Wong Jack Man did to Bruce's triple warmer meridian point 9 during the fight. I thought everyone knew that....


It is around 4 am here in the city of Cali, in Colombia. I have just finished reading the book. I really found it fascinating. Of course, the book raises very serious questions in regards to Bruce Lee's death.

Murder or not?

[ghostexorcist]

What book on Yip Man? (link please?)

http://www.amazon.com/Ip-Man-Portrait-Kung-Master/dp/1555175163/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1280338482&sr=1-1

It's been out for over 9 years now. I've had it for 7 years and still haven't read it. I tend to bounce around from book to book and sometimes forget which ones I have. I don't read constantly, however. I read in spurts. I get tired of TV and read. After a few hours, I eventually feel like I need to dumb myself down with some more TV.


de myth

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mcl81ldNODc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqxnhmeMdJ4&feature=related

I can't stand to read the viewer comments at the bottom of those pages. It's the usual "Bruce would have killed Chuck in real life" argument. One person is claiming Bruce was one of the most powerful men in history. Thousands of years of martial arts history (be it China, India, Korea, Japan, etc.) and Bruce is the pinnacle? I think not. I usually ask such people how Bruce would have done against other famous masters like Mas Oyama and Wang Ziping. Most of the time, they just side-step the question--probably because they have no idea who these people are--and keep running their mouth about Bruce the God. Honestly, I prefer Bruce Campbell!

[Lucas]

hail to the king, baby

[teetsao]

ghostexorcist,you are right about the way bruce is protrayed.whether or not he would like this is up to debate,but one thing i think that has realy,realy added to it, is the public at large,who know nothing of real kung fu,ask any of them and them all being experts on fighting will not hesitate to tell you,"bruce lee was the best that ever lived", they might even tell you he was the strongest in history also. funny thing he adimted himslef,the way he fought in the movies is nothing like he would in real life. he had distilled it down to just a few techniques he relied upon,according to what i have read. funny thing is,one of his favorites was biu gee technique,right from wing chun. part of the "classical mess". LOL

[lkfmdc]

I can't stand to read the viewer comments at the bottom of those pages. It's the usual "Bruce would have killed Chuck in real life" argument. One person is claiming Bruce was one of the most powerful men in history. Thousands of years of martial arts history (be it China, India, Korea, Japan, etc.) and Bruce is the pinnacle? I think not. I usually ask such people how Bruce would have done against other famous masters like Mas Oyama and Wang Ziping. Most of the time, they just side-step the question--probably because they have no idea who these people are--and keep running their mouth about Bruce the God. Honestly, I prefer Bruce Campbell!

People from "the past" who would have put Bruce Lee (tm) away without much of a sweat
Mas Oyama
Chang Dung Sheng
Chan Tai San
Kimura
The list could go on, but you know

[Dragonzbane76]

read about 3/4 of it today, i'll try and get the rest tomorrow. Pretty interesting, really puts him on a "human" level and deplores the "god" like image a lot have for him. He was charasmatic I will give him that and had the ego to boot with it, but on the other hand so was Hitler.

[Hardwork108]

People from "the past" who would have put Bruce Lee (tm) away without much of a sweat
Mas Oyama
Chang Dung Sheng
Chan Tai San
Kimura
The list could go on, but you know

Wow, you mean that there are TCMA-ists that could actually beat the "modern" and "progressive", not to mention, cross training Bruce Lee...:eek:

ARE YOU MAD, MAN? :D

[ghostexorcist]

I finished reading it a couple of nights ago before I went to bed. I'm glad I printed it out because I could just lay it aside instead of turning on my laptop.

I really liked it. I like the way chapter 15 explained how his image was created through marketing. I was a bit confuse at the end, though. So the boyhood friend/butler (who we haven't heard from for the past 30 years) poisoned him?

I would love for people who think he was an invincible god to read this. The book kind of reminds me of a paper I once read on Yue Fei. Like the book, the paper casts the general as a human. He was an alcoholic who was worried about his public image and was constantly being demoted for running his mouth.

[goju]

People from "the past" who would have put Bruce Lee (tm) away without much of a sweat
Mas Oyama
Chang Dung Sheng
Chan Tai San
Kimura
The list could go on, but you know


some of those people in that list have no proof of their supposed fights either outside of supposed eye witness accounts
:rolleyes:

[rogue]

Joe Lewis
Chuck Norris
Benny "The Jet" Urquidez
Jim Maloney
Bill Wallace
Howard Jackson
Dolemite
Sho'Nuff

[goju]

you put chuck on the list! lol

danny inosanto mentioned the two sparring and bruce just kept slapping chuck and he had no defense for it at all

[bawang]

bruce lee can suck my bawls

[Hardwork108]

I guess we need to define what we mean by a "fight" in which Bruce Lee would supposedly win or lose to x,y,z, before we theorize on the result.

Are people here talking about a street fight, in which it seems Bruce Lee had a lot of experience in, or are we talking about sports tournaments?

I ask, because the setting and the context can often effect the result......

[Hardwork108]

bruce lee can suck my bawls
Hey, whatever turns you on Dave, but there are other forums for that kind of talk....

[rogue]

you put chuck on the list! lol

danny inosanto mentioned the two sparring and bruce just kept slapping chuck and he had no defense for it at all

Oooooooo.:eek: Look, I found the actual footage of it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBqa5BUQmvM

But if we're looking for apocryphal stories there's this one.


WIKIPEDIA:
Lee had repeatedly humiliated Norris during a mock sparring session in the hotel hallway at the Long Beach International Karate Championships. Norris had offended Lee when he publicly claimed to be a better fighter than Lee. When word got back to Lee, he called Norris and openly challenged him, threatening to drive to his school to fight (Norris was teaching his black belt class at that time). According to eye witnesses, Lee made Norris hold the phone receiver up and shout in front of his black belts, “Bruce Lee is a better fighter than me!” Later, Norris wrote an Apologetic Letter to Lee; the original is currently in the care of Lee’s student, Dan Inosanto.


Maybe the man himself tells a more truthful story...
http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=Mcl81ldNODc&feature=related

[goju]

being that chuck was a glorified point fighter i have no doubt lee or anyone slightly skilled could have went through him with ease:D

[Hardwork108]

being that chuck was a glorified point fighter i have no doubt lee or anyone slightly skilled could have went through him with ease:D

You may have a point there....;)

[taai gihk yahn]

Maybe the man himself tells a more truthful story...
http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=Mcl81ldNODc&feature=related
score one to the Norris for high-level diplomacy: makes everyone look / sound good...

[rogue]

being that chuck was a glorified point fighter i have no doubt lee or anyone slightly skilled could have went through him with ease:D

In what fantasy world would that happen? When did BL actually fight anyone professionally, point or otherwise.

[taai gihk yahn]

Benny "The Jet" Urquidez
all kidding aside, he wud certainly have given Bruce a run for his money in any capacity;

[goju]

In what fantasy world would that happen? When did BL actually fight anyone professionally, point or otherwise.


Its funny you speak of fantasy worlds when you added a A POINT FIGHTER to the list of people:D

LOL i mean come on youre gonna put guy who didnt have any recorded fights by matching him up with another guy who played karates version of tag you're it?:rolleyes:

if we are going to take a certain stance on things than if the person didnt have any FULL contact continuous RECORDED fights then they might as well lump them all in with bruce as well.

youre either an actual fighter or youre not there no grey areas

[Frost]

you put chuck on the list! lol

danny inosanto mentioned the two sparring and bruce just kept slapping chuck and he had no defense for it at all

show the quote please, because one thing Inosanto is is polite i cant remember him saying a bad word about anyone

And Norris actually completed unlike Bruce or Dan

[Frost]

being that chuck was a glorified point fighter i have no doubt lee or anyone slightly skilled could have went through him with ease:D

yep because we all know the point Circuit back then was easy to win...i love when guys that have not competed in anything pass judgement on those that have :rolleyes:

[Frost]

Its funny you speak of fantasy worlds when you added a A POINT FIGHTER to the list of people:D

LOL i mean come on youre gonna put guy who didnt have any recorded fights by matching him up with another guy who played karates version of tag you're it?:rolleyes:

if we are going to take a certain stance on things than if the person didnt have any FULL contact continuous RECORDED fights then they might as well lump them all in with bruce as well.

youre either an actual fighter or youre not there no grey areas

and since you have never competed in any enviroment that makes you....

[Frost]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMUcQcesihE - Chuck

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOFCMvb43jA&feature=related - Bruce

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_TGpwCLqvc&feature=related - Benny

lol one of those was a demo with full gear against a student and doesnt elong on the same page as the other two

on a side note benny would have killed him

[Frost]

I couldn't find any other Bruce vids that showed him in unscripted contest. :o

Kickboxing is that it didn't take off until the 70's. As far as I can tell, only the PKA (cofounded by Counte Dante in the early 60s) and Bruce Lee were pushing for full contact. In a sense, they helped pave the way for people like Urquidez to have better competitive training and venues.

I've seen a roof top fight of his, but i would not have called that a fight in any sense of the word, chucks opponent hit harder in that clip :)

was he a good fighter, we will never know, but no way you could judge him the same as guys that competed...even if it was semi contact the fact is they went up against guys they did not know without much protection and faced the prospect of real injury.......fighting your own students in full protection is not the same

[Frost]

I thought the rooftop fight wasn't even of him, so I left it alone.

I didn't know he was fighting his own student in the sparring clip. That is new info for me. I thought it was an unknown Karate dude.

i might be wrong but if i remember rightly he demoed with one of his students, could be wrong though

i saw one on tape years ago, not sure if its on the net

[goju]

and since you have never competed in any enviroment that makes you....

wow frost are you that much of an illiterate or were you just jonesing that bad to whip it out and measure with another poster on here you missed my point entirely? You know most guys your age buy a corvette or grow a pony tail to deal with their midlife crisis not waste their time on a forum bickering like a high school girl on the rag: for months on end D

But i guess not all of us can be intelligent or mature, or have a life, or hobbies, or a girlfriend, or even regular friends.... shall i go on? XD

My point was that it is ludicrous to rag on bruce for not putting forth any good competitive efforts and then compare him to guys who didnt do any better or at least have no solid proof ( like he did) of doing what is claimed.

A percentage of those people listed have fights that are all ONLY based off of supposed eyewitness accounts( often the witnesses conviently happen to be the masters friends or students) and nothing else yet they are being painted in a different light than Bruce.

Perhaps if some of you could retract your claws for a minute and use what little grey matter you have you would understand the contradictions in this thread.:D

You dont have to worship the man as a god or think he was the greatest martial artist ever but when you are favoring guys who have just as questionable backrounds and skills as he did then you are doing nothing but fan boy worshipping as well.

Which is ironic considering the direction this thread took was a means to stop the idol worship that has been attached to Bruce.


I've seen a roof top fight of his, but i would not have called that a fight in any sense of the word, chucks opponent hit harder in that clip :)

Yes because its easy to gauge how hard a person hits by watching a video clip of them punching . :rolleyes: :eek:

Also apparently you arent aware either that those point or semi contact matches do not allow a lot of standard techniques along with force deemed to be too hard ( oyama was supposedly disqualified from these comps because he hit with too much force) not to mention the fighting wasnt continuous of course and a person could turn his back to avoid being struck if he wished .

But yes you are right those clearly were fights LOL

pardon the long post old chap i just wished to shut you down quickly rather than have this turn into a drawn out v agina monologues episode i know you enjoy to have with victor and hard work:p

[lkfmdc]

Benny the Jet would have beaten Lee up, taken his lunch money and left him in a small pool in the corner of the room. If you think otherwise you've lost all credibility here. Benny fought over 50 full contacts fights against top notch well trained opponents. I don't subscribe to his doctored record and I know he has lost a few. But it is instructive to note that the only people who beat him were pro Nak Muay from Thailand, and even in those matches Benny landed some amazing shots, shots that likely would have decimated Bruce Lee (tm)

[Frost]

wow frost are you that much of an illiterate or were you just jonesing that bad to whip it out and measure with another poster on here you missed my point entirely? You know most guys your age buy a corvette or grow a pony tail to deal with their midlife crisis not waste their time on a forum bickering like a high school girl on the rag: for months on end D

But i guess not all of us can be intelligent or mature, or have a life, or hobbies, or a girlfriend, or even regular friends.... shall i go on? XD

My point was that it is ludicrous to rag on bruce for not putting forth any good competitive efforts and then compare him to guys who didnt do any better or at least have no solid proof ( like he did) of doing what is claimed.

A percentage of those people listed have fights that are all ONLY based off of supposed eyewitness accounts( often the witnesses conviently happen to be the masters friends or students) and nothing else yet they are being painted in a different light than Bruce.

Perhaps if some of you could retract your claws for a minute and use what little grey matter you have you would understand the contradictions in this thread.:D

You dont have to worship the man as a god or think he was the greatest martial artist ever but when you are favoring guys who have just as questionable backrounds and skills as he did then you are doing nothing but fan boy worshipping as well.

Which is ironic considering the direction this thread took was a means to stop the idol worship that has been attached to Bruce.



Yes because its easy to gauge how hard a person hits by watching a video clip of them punching . :rolleyes: :eek:

Also apparently you arent aware either that those point or semi contact matches do not allow a lot of standard techniques along with force deemed to be too hard ( oyama was supposedly disqualified from these comps because he hit with too much force) not to mention the fighting wasnt continuous of course and a person could turn his back to avoid being struck if he wished .

But yes you are right those clearly were fights LOL

pardon the long post old chap i just wished to shut you down quickly rather than have this turn into a drawn out v agina monologues episode i know you enjoy to have with victor and hard work:p

they were more like fights than getting geared up and trying it on with actors:)

do you even know the rules they fought under back in the day, the guys over here fighting so called semi contact ended up with brocken noses and jaws knocked out teeth etc, you cant compare the rules now and then. And chuck had a record unlike bruce, yes it was semi contact but he still went and got in there with trained athletes and not actors

[goju]

they were more like fights than getting geared up and trying it on with actors:)

do you even know the rules they fought under back in the day, the guys over here fighting so called semi contact ended up with brocken noses and jaws knocked out teeth etc, you cant compare the rules now and then. And chuck had a record unlike bruce, yes it was semi contact but he still went and got in there with trained athletes and not actors


funny that alot of them say that but when you see the video footage from that t period the majority of time is spent posing in the elvis karate stance with the occasional chop chop launched only to return back to more elvis posing making it come off more like a very light sparring match than an actual fight

the clip speaks for itself they are pulling their punches and turning away. hardly a fight. there is a reason why knock down karate came about and it was because of karate competitions at the time werent realistic

If we are going to get stupid and reason who was better by what they did then lee's high school boxing matches had more full continuous hard contact in them then the karate comps at the time thus making his brief boxing venture worth more than chucks slap matches

i dont know about you but id have rather realistic training where they train and spar hard and continuous vs pulling attacks and striking the air and my money would certainly be on the guy who does or did the former rather than the latter.

[WildBill]

"He really wanted to kill me," says Wong. Most of what he used against Lee, says Wong, was defensive. Wong says he parried Lee’s kicks with his legs while using his hand and arms to protect his head and torso, only occasionally delivering a stinging blow to Lee’s head or body.

Wong Jack Man had struck Bruce Lee in the back of the head.

The point position for the palm chop after the 'gold chick single stand' is fatal and causes death sooner or later when sharply struck.

And I believe BL got this kind of injury and his bruise in his head led him to death. Perhaps it was caused by WJM's palm strike.

William Chen’s memory of the fight are more in alignment with Wong’s than Lee’s. On the question of duration, for example, Chen, as Wong, recalls the fight continuing for "20 or 25 minutes." He also said neither man was knocked down. "Certainly," he says, "Wong was not brought to the floor and pounded into a ‘state of demoralization.’"

Ming Lum, a San Francisco martial arts promoter, said that he didn't attend the fight because he was a friend of both Lee and Wong. Lum saw Wong the very next day at the Jackson Cafe, and Lum says the only evidence he saw of the fight was a scratch above one eye, a scratch Wong said he got when Lee went for his eyes as he extended his arm for the opening handshake.

Most JKD people think that Wing Chun is mainly about trapping when in fact trapping only makes up about 2 percent of the art and is only used if the opportunity creates itself. I can see no reason why JKD places non Wing Chun footwork with Wing Chun hands, something that defies the point of the Wing Chun elbow position and power generation in the first place.

Bruce Lee, declared Wing Chun impractical after this match. Bruce's own account has him chasing after Wong hitting the back of his head etc and becoming unusually winded. For a start, why was he chasing after Wong in that manner? It's odd to use the Wing Chun punches and methods in a way they were never meant to be used and then complain they didn't work.

Next, Bruce claimed the fight took three minutes. Three minutes of continuous aggressive fighting would take the wind out of most people. From Lee's own accounts of this fight, let alone Wong's, it is clear upon examination that he had a lot to learn and did not go about things in the right way, 'at the time of that fight'.

Bruce Lee was so impressed with Wong Jack Man's skills that he wrote to WJM's teacher and requested lessons. GM Ma Kim Fung turned him away, But Bruce Lee found and convinced Shui Hon Sang, who was an older classmate of GM Ma. GM Shui taught BL at least two sets, Kung Lick Chuan and Jie Chuan (Jeet Kuan).

There is a 8mm film of Bruce Lee doing Bei Shaolin #5 or attempting to perform BSL#5. He paid someone to film Wong Jack Man who was demonstrating BSL#5 and then BL learned from that film. Bruce Lee then had himself filmed doing the same set but from what I understand the quality was obviously not the same.

If Bruce Lee won the fight as he claimed, then why did he adapt the fighting methods of the loser? Ever other martial artist studies the methods of the winner.

' I must point out here that the true reason Bruce (who was my student when he lived in Culver City and I was chief instructor of martial arts at Loyola University) started Jeet Kune Do was because he was unable to achieve instructor rank in ANY form of martial art.....so he went out and took bits and pieces and created his own.

I also have the first article he ever wrote for publication (for me when I was associate editor at Black Belt magazine). It was so poor we sent it back, an act that angered him to no end at that time. But once he moved here to get into movies and TV he realized he had no power ..... speed but no results. That's what he wanted from me.
...
There is an internal side to the martial arts....esp. the Chinese arts which later were streamlined by the Japanese who lost the sense of internal until ch'an came to Japan as zen and they saw it as the perfect paradox of internal skill and killing.......but it is not what most are being taught today. It all changed in the mid 60s when people outside the Asian communities began to learn about martial arts....then came the prostitution, phony rankings, made-up school names and everything else that makes true MA so difficult to find these days.
b (Ven. Dr. An Tzu; Thich An Tri)
'
By Dr. William Upton-Knittle
(Dr. William Upton-Knittle, senior coordinator of the UCLA Office of Summer Sessions Advertising and Marketing, was invited by government officials of the People's Republic of China to help plan fund-raising for a project known as the Dr. Sun Yat-sen Victory Memorial.)

Dr. William Upton-Knittle also taught the Developemental Psychology of the world renown Jean Piaget. He is also listed in Who's Who in America three times.

There was a strong Japanese influence in Bruce Lee, since his main sparring partner and closest friends was Taki Kimura. Taki Kimura, delivered the eulogy at Bruce Lee's funeral. Bruce Lee's style is called Jeet Kuen Do, Do, is a Japanese term for school, or path. Many people Jeet Kuen Do are unfamiliar with some of the higher level Japanese sparring methods, and assume Bruce Lee invented them, when introduced to them for the first time in Jeet Kuen Do. Even some Shotokan associations, at their higher levels, have some soft, and/or internal methods.

"Bruce Lee, and thus JKD was heavily influenced by Western boxing and fencing. Although the backbone concepts (such as centerline, vertical punching, and forward pressure) come from Wing Chun, Lee stopped using the Wing Chun stances in favor of what he considered to be more fluid/flexible fencing and boxing stances."

Most empty hand martial artists are unfamiliar with the boxing and fencing stances as applied to sparring, so they assume they are unique to Jeet Kuen Do, which is a mistake. "
from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeet_Kune_Do

Bruce Lee's martial background was not traditional Chinese Kung Fu, even his study under Wing Chun's Yip Man, was less than two years. Yip Man did not consider Bruce Lee a serious student.

Advanced martial techniques and energies, are based on a continual regimen of training lasting decades. Bruce Lee never studied at any school long enough to take advantage of this. Bruce Lee ended up spending much time 'reinventing the wheel'.

Any techniques in Bruce Lee's style were based on only his experience. Some have used Thai Boxing, and Filipino Martial Arts with Jeet Kun Do; but since there has never been any world class Martial Artist to have been produced by Jeet Kun Do alone, it is questionable whether any of Bruce Lee's self taught methods, are of any use to anyone else, except as basic self defense.

[Drake]

Oh shut up, MP.

[lkfmdc]

not much to say here, but

http://moderateleft.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/failedtroll.jpg

"Dont' worry speed racer, I'm not hurting your mother"

[David Jamieson]

wow, this wildbill guy is a piece of work!
lol

that's some serious hard trolling he's doing.

epic failure and so on.

This place is awesomer and awesomer as these losers roll in. :rolleyes:

[FuJowPai]

IMO, what set Bruce apart and helped make him a legend is that he came from the "golden era" of martial arts. During the period from the 50's to the 70's, martial artists were still willing to go out and test their art on the street. You had guys like Bruce, Gene Lebell, Ed Parker, Ralph Castro, Al Dacascos, etc. not to mention a number of Yip Man's students who were out there seeing what worked and what didn't. That was back before everyone was lawsuit happy.

I've met and trained with 2 of Bruce's original students during his Seattle years. From what I've been told, Bruce was c o c k y and some might even call it being hotheaded, but he never backed down from a confrontation and the 2 guys I trained with both witnessed Bruce beat down a supposed "expert" in karate and another guy who was about twice Bruce's size (on seperate occasions). One day I was training with one of these men, and I was amazed at his speed. He told me that was nothing compared to the way Bruce could move. I had trouble wrapping my head around it. Even with this guy's speed, he said Bruce could hit or kick him at will and that Bruce wasn't just fast, but hit with heavyweight power which people sometimes forget about.

I think it's pretty clear that by the time Dan Inosanto started training with him, Bruce had calmed down/matured/changed his ways however you want to look at it. At least it seems that way because he didn't get in as many scraps during that time (or at least none that were witnessed like during previous years).

I remember seeing a Sammo interview where he talked about the first time he met Bruce. He said they kind of gave each other the stare down and finally Sammo asked Bruce if he could really fight. Bruce said something to the effect of "do you want to find out". Sammo said that they squared off and he went to throw a kick at Bruce, and before he could raise his knee up Bruce's foot was on the side of his head. That interview is on the bonus features of a documentary called Modern Warriors if anyone would like to see it.

Does that mean Bruce was unbeatable? Of course not, we all know the saying there is always someone tougher and even the most badassed fighters on earth get their butt kicked. But what put Bruce in the upper echelon were the rare attributes that he had, combined with his fanatical dedication to training and his state of mind.

So there is no doubt in my mind that Bruce definitely was not a paper tiger. However, the biggest issue that I've questioned is the fight with Wong Jack Man. There are a couple of things that bother me about the official story (Linda Lee version). The first is, the story goes that WJM fought Bruce because the older Chinese in SF didn't want Bruce teaching whites. Well there were already other Chinese sifus teaching whites so it wasn't like Bruce was breaking some kind of taboo. And the story goes that, after Bruce took longer than expected to beat WJM, he decided to make the changes to wing chun which led to the development of JKD. Linda Lee says that Bruce abandoned wing chun after discovering that it didn't work in a real confrontation.

I think we can all agree that is nonsense. Not only did Bruce witness his kung fu elders use wing chun, to varying degress of success, in Hong Kong, but Bruce himself was a street fighter as acknowledged by his own brother Robert and friends who hung around with Bruce during his HK years. By the time Bruce made it to Seattle, he was still getting into fights. So he already had a very good idea of what worked and what didn't on the street. So what prompted the change after the WJM fight? Could he have become bored with what he had learned and wanted to create something new for himself? Or did he just happen to meet someone who was just a little more badass, in that case WJM?

[MightyB]

A Martial Artist who majored in Philosophy and lived in America during the counter culture movement... hmmmmmm... Jeet Kune Do®, a philosophy that's based on questioning the martial arts establishment...

A young man who's obviously interested in the practical aspects of fighting (and take into account what I wrote above)... incorporates western boxing and wrestling and physical fitness into his martial arts training.

---

Most of what the legend surrounding Bruce Lee® is is mostly BS. He was an actor with a good publicity game. What's not BS is that he was an early pioneer and advocate of cross training for functionality. His book and concepts are sound - some of his technique is dated. But, from what I read - he didn't want to create a new martial art. He pushed his philosophy which was ahead (kind've, read Musashi) and inspired a lot of people. His philosophy is still sound and is exemplified by MMA.

Could he fight? I'd say yes. Was he the best? Well, no one is. Was he better prepared for real fighting than other "traditional" martial artists of his time? Most definitely.

I like to leave it at that.

[lkfmdc]

"It is like a finger"

(take a bong hit)

"pointing it's way at the moon"

(second bong hit)

"do not concentrate on the finger or you will miss all the heavenly glory"

(stoned friend on couch)

"dooooooood, that's like, like, sooooooo deeeeepppppppp"

(don't forget the floral shirts)

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Q1rQA8bVpls/0.jpg

[MasterKiller]

http://lolpics.se/pics/9201.jpg

[wenshu]

http://www.gifsoup.com/imager.php?id=826925 (http://www.gifsoup.com/view/826925/bushido-brown-kickin-ass.html)

Bushido brown is disturbed by this insolent apostasy.

[sanjuro_ronin]

That was freaking awesome and the best part of this thread !!!

[Lucas]

i dont believe they fought for 25 minutes straight without one of them beating the crap out of the other guy unless they both sucked that bad. you take 2 good fighters and have a NHB with no ref, it doesnt last 25 minutes. id need real proof to believe that kinds of story.

[lkfmdc]

i dont believe they fought for 25 minutes straight without one of them beating the crap out of the other guy unless they both sucked that bad. you take 2 good fighters and have a NHB with no ref, it doesnt last 25 minutes. id need real proof to believe that kinds of story.

have you ever seen the "roof top fights"? Or the "famous" battle between two "masters"?

The fact that wong was walking around at work the next day, no injury, says a lot

[Lucas]

lol ya. it makes you wonder the other way it could last 25 minutes....cat and mouse? :eek:


:D

[wenshu]

Bruce Lee was Manorexic.

[YouKnowWho]

He said, "I punch and I don't push." I respect him just for saying that. When a Taiji master asks you to push on his fat belly, how many of you will punch on his face and knock him down?

[lkfmdc]

A guy told me "boards don't hit back"

so I hit him with a 2 by 4

:p

[David Jamieson]

The issue isn't whether or not Bruce Lee was for real.
It has more to do with the cause celebrity that permeates the western masses.

We give credence to someone because they are a star. For pete's sake, people hang on celebrities words about politics and the environment these days! lol

People actually give credence to Jack Black and his Kung Fu too!

Do you think in 20 years someone will ask about whether or not Jack Black is for real?

That's like asking if David Carradine's Kung Fu was for real.
Bruce was fit, knew some TCMA and dabbled a lot in a few other things but make no mistake, he was first and foremost interested in becoming a movie star! And he did become that and he burnt out in a crashing flaming nose dive.

So, he should have been more careful about what he asked the universe for. :)

[goju]

his art he made was entirely practical so its speaks volumes on where his head was at in regards to martial arts and because of that id put my money on him being able to preform well in a pressure setting

[SPJ]

bruce lee was and still is an icon in many respects.

I always envy his 6 or 8 pack---

---

or his belly is a real deal

--

[lkfmdc]

bruce lee was and still is an icon in many respects.

I always envy his 6 or 8 pack---

---

or his belly is a real deal

--

beep!

..........

[sanjuro_ronin]

You know, there is nothing wrong with admiring someone for his accomplishments, as long as it doesn't overshadow the reality of things.
Bruce was a good MA, ahead of his time in m any regards.
There were many that were better than him and many that were worse.
He was good enough for the time he was in.
Beyond that, lets not get carried away with things OR deny the man the good stuff he did.

[Lucas]

You know, there is nothing wrong with admiring someone for his accomplishments, as long as it doesn't overshadow the reality of things.
Bruce was a good MA, ahead of his time in m any regards.
There were many that were better than him and many that were worse.
He was good enough for the time he was in.
Beyond that, lets not get carried away with things OR deny the man the good stuff he did.

many reside in the extreme regarding their opinion of BL.

[lkfmdc]

many reside in the extreme regarding their opinion of BL.

The truth is always the best policy, but since people have investment in images and belief, the truth is always the first casualty

[Lucas]

The truth is always the best policy, but since people have investment in images and belief, the truth is always the first casualty

thats a good one!

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Human beings by their very nature want to believe in something extraordinary and beyond the scope of rational thought. Bruce Lee was a "legend" in his own time and even today. But being a legend is not necissarly good in all senses. Webster's defines legend as "An unverified story handed down from earler times, especially one populary believed to be historical".

Now, consider the last part of that definition for a moment, and think about all the hyped up bull sh**it stories about Bruce Lee you have ever heard. Everything from Bruce being the toughest human to ever exist to him being a ninja to never being defeated to blah, blah, blah. Humans love to tell stories, and we love to make them larger than life and over the top. The worst part of all this is the gullible, senseless, or stupid people who actually believe them, and sadly enough, there are probably more who do than don't believe these kind of fables.

I personally respect Bruce Lee for his accomplishments as a movie star, his philosophies on martial arts, and his reaching the masses and opening the door so to speak for the popularization of Asian martial arts, particulary Chinese Kung Fu. But like most important people in history who he actually was has been exaggerated to death.

[Lucas]

I heard from a reliable source that Bruce Lee got all his power from defeating Hurcules with his one inch punch and then he tamed the Cerebus with a takedown ankle bite like in Chinese Connection.

[pateticorecords]

Regardless of what your thoughts on Bruce the man, Bruce the action star, Bruce the martial artist… the truth that without him most of everybody involved in martial arts today would have never been interested or discovered CMA or other arts without him.

Respect where respect is due! He changed the world of martial arts and is one of the most recognized martial artists & celebrities on the planet. 100 years from now, if the world still is inhabited, people will still know who Bruce Lee was... the same would never be said about any other teachers, masters, etc
.:)

[David Jamieson]

http://collingsforum.com/groupee_files/attachments/1/5/6/156102555/156102555_Beating_a_Dead_Horse.gif

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/user/GreenHornetMovie?v=TcoddQq0xHM&feature=pyv&ad=7655207261&kw=

yes. definately going to see it on 3 D

I was a fan for kato/BL since 6 Y.O.

---

:)

[SPJ]

I meant the star power of BL is real

not just in east asia but thruout the world.

the remake of green hornet movie will make more money in east asia

---

:)