Siu Lim Tao with the Knives...

[LoneTiger108]

Just separating this from a previous thread, as it dawned on me that I was (again!) going off subject! :( I was highlighting that the chamber hand position doesn't touch the chest because it is designed to hold a knife in the chambered hand. This suggests that the knife can be used in SLT and it has proven fme to be a very good therapy.


The knife form ISN'T like SLT form....#1 reason ? answers below please :D


I'm looking forward to these answers as well. Practicing SLT with the knives completely destroys what the form is correcting and teaching.

GH

I'm not suggesting to do this as a comparisson to the BJD, but as an additional way to train SLT. A great tool for alignment and awareness imho.

Who has ever tried this out and what are your views to such training?

[hunt1]

All forms can be done with the knives. Knife form should be done without the knives.

Much can be learned. Sure some minor changes have to be made but the weight of the knives can help you to discover interesting things about your structure and body usage.

[Graham H]

Just separating this from a previous thread, as it dawned on me that I was (again!) going off subject! :( I was highlighting that the chamber hand position doesn't touch the chest because it is designed to hold a knife in the chambered hand. This suggests that the knife can be used in SLT and it has proven fme to be a very good therapy.





I'm not suggesting to do this as a comparisson to the BJD, but as an additional way to train SLT. A great tool for alignment and awareness imho.

Who has ever tried this out and what are your views to such training?

Ok, so our thinking must be way different. SLT trains, amongst other things, the elbow behaviour for the punch. If you are holding a knife in your hand how can you focus on this idea??? The hand should be relaxed during the form. Not possible whilst holding onto a knife is it???

GH

[Sihing73]

Hello,

To me this presents an interesting possibility. In the FMA it is commonly accepted that everything which can be done with a weapon can be done without a weapon. Of course there are some adjustments which are needed. You need to modify things even if the difference is from using a blade to using a stick. Some things will carry over but some things will need to change.

I am not so sure that holding a knife will cause extreme tension, the movements can be done with a relaxed grip for training, perhaps. Of course there will be some tension but maybe the extra weight will transfer over to the emptyhand applications making you more aware and perhaps giving additional strength.

I may need to play with this, using smaller knives like a spyderco perhaps and see how that changes things.

Even if we do not all agree, at least this is presenting new ideas which we can all think about and perhaps expand our own experiences.

[Graham H]

All forms can be done with the knives. Knife form should be done without the knives.

.

Sorry, but with all due respect that has got to be one of the stupidest things I've heard in the last 13 years. But then again I'm not in the same lineage as you so you may well be correct for your lineage. At a guess you must be without some limbs???????????? lol

GH

[LoneTiger108]

All forms can be done with the knives. Knife form should be done without the knives.

Much can be learned. Sure some minor changes have to be made but the weight of the knives can help you to discover interesting things about your structure and body usage.

Personally, I find your opinion refreshing.


Sorry, but with all due respect that has got to be one of the stupidest things I've heard in the last 13 years.

We all have our opinions, but to call us stupid? As for your 13 years, from whatever lineage you originate, I would just try it and take note of what changes are made. With SLT, and for me, not many changes are needed at all. ;)


I am not so sure that holding a knife will cause extreme tension, the movements can be done with a relaxed grip for training, perhaps. Of course there will be some tension but maybe the extra weight will transfer over to the emptyhand applications making you more aware and perhaps giving additional strength.

I have found that the extra weight definitely transfers to the empty hand. In many ways it's a final 'drill' for SLT. I also find this with the pole, or any weighted equipment to be honest.

My question is, if you're chun kuen fistwork is 'designed' for use with the knives, maybe even originating from there, why is SLT so different? Why should anything we do with our hands different?

I don't see this as being a 'family thing' either. It's just common sense. And I'm very common :D

[Graham H]

Personally, I find your opinion refreshing.



We all have our opinions, but to call us stupid? As for your 13 years, from whatever lineage you originate, I would just try it and take note of what changes are made. With SLT, and for me, not many changes are needed at all. ;)



I wasn't calling anybody stupid. The idea of using the knives in other forms is a stupid idea. Why are you reinventing the wheel??? The thinking behind the knives is different to SLT or Chum Kiu and I would especially like to see somebody use the knives on the dummy. How is it possible in the long pole form??? Maybe you can hang them on the end. :D

Barry Lee worded it well........If you know and understand the Ving Tsun Knives you will know how and why the knife movements differ from the hand movements and realize why these knives (particularly if they are the correct weight for combat against someone else with a weapon) can easily draw your open hands out of line if practiced too early.

Maybe I'm getting confused and you are just looking to work out with weights. Maybe you should then get some wrist weights because if you are using the knives inside, for instance, Chum Kiu then you are looking for serious injury as a lot of actions instersect the arms.

The knives teach you to fight against other weapons. Apart from guns :D. Using the knives compliments the hands but thats it. In fact one of the first drills you learn in the knives teaches you how to handle them properly to saves us injuring ourselves with the blades.

I'm really interested to find out how you and your mates ideas differ from this.

I await your reply.

GH

[hunt1]

LoL Graham. Another follower of " Way of small thought" Wing Chun.

Almost every movement of every form save the Pole is taught in or derived from SLT. Bong dao is a Bong Dao and Mun Dao is a Mun dao . Weight of the knives has nothing to do with weight lifting . Just mentioning wrist weights at all shows you have a very limited understand of the knives and what they can teach you.

Mentioning Barry? Does this mean You are in the WSL family? I have a tape with WSL doing some Chum Kui with the Knives. What an idiot he was.

[hunt1]

Thanks LoneTiger, for me the only rule is there are no rules. The curriculum, the forms etc are meant to guide us not meant to be an end in and of itself. To many seem to believe that if their teacher didn't show or teach something it means its not there or doesn't exist.

[anerlich]

I do not believe the hand chamber position in SLT has anything at all to do with the knives.

I went through a stage where I tried all the empty hand forms with the knives. Some aspects worked well, some didn't. Investigation and exploration.

Yes, you need to learn the knife form to avoid obvious mistakes like cutting off your own hand.

That said, I don't ever plan on fighting anyone with two sharp WC butterfly knives. Or any sort of knife for that matter. I have been taught and praqctise some of Hock Hochheim's knife system, and I'd be hoping to use that with an available or improvised weapon should the unthinkable occur.

Lighten up, ba$tards.:p

[anerlich]

Why are you reinventing the wheel???

To get some insight into the reasoning and mindset of the original inventors, possibly.

[Graham H]

LoL Graham. Another follower of " Way of small thought" Wing Chun.

Almost every movement of every form save the Pole is taught in or derived from SLT. Bong dao is a Bong Dao and Mun Dao is a Mun dao . Weight of the knives has nothing to do with weight lifting . Just mentioning wrist weights at all shows you have a very limited understand of the knives and what they can teach you.

Mentioning Barry? Does this mean You are in the WSL family? I have a tape with WSL doing some Chum Kui with the Knives. What an idiot he was.

Ha! You're funny. "Way of small thought Wing Chun" :D. Condescending too??? A funny condescending WC guy. Great!!!!!

Poor me huh???

I was being sarcastic about the wrist weights so don't go putting words in my mouth.

You have a tape of WSL doing CK with the knives..Can I see it? Interesting.

I also want to know what else the knives (or rather you) can teach me if you would like to keep this discussion going.

xx

[Graham H]

To get some insight into the reasoning and mindset of the original inventors, possibly.

So you're saying that in order to get some reasoning and insight into the minds of the original inventors of VT you are going to do all the forms with knives in your hands???? :eek::D Then you're implying that you are going to improve VT from your findings????



Come on!!!! You just justified reinventing the VT wheel!!!!!!! :mad:


Good luck with that!!! :rolleyes:

[k gledhill]

I thought we could do SLT and knives similarly, until I had them explained to me.

#1 is that you don't x the line with wrists like SLT in Knives. Meaning also that you dont position them to 'cut yourself ' if they encounter force in front of you...think 'incoming' force, not just making shapes like SLT. Where will my rear hand be if the lead is smacked backwards sharply ?

The first thing you learn with SLT is the xing along the centerline with double man sao back to double wu sao...intersecting the line with wrists...tutsao recycling them [aka washing hands[
The first thing you learn with knives are the parallel lines they each travel back and forth to the apex of your stabbing/slashing /chopping triangle. They swap along the line but not Xing wrists...subtle but profound difference in ideas.
With Knives you start with each knife held in front of you to make a stab or a chop etc...so each hand is traveling alongside the centerline and back to its spot like wu sao. Only the line isnt x'ed because your not going to attack the same way as SLT thinking.

One idea 'SLT' naturally intersects a centerline to engage anything on it without thought as you attack relentlessly forwards...the other maintains distances using the blades to present a 'cutting barrier' in front of our centerline to entry to us, while maintaining a flanking 'make safe space' idea with different dynamics to SLT's ' producing force' with our structures to punch guys lights out with bare fists...

Its easy to try and copy the forms with knives, like CK you can do bong wu because your not xing your arms. your using the blades edge rather than your forearm. By doing an elbow up your turning the blade upwards at an angle to make displacing cuts .

I learned to use firearms, so this is all moot to me , like Indiana Jones :D I haven't got time for a nice machette fight thanks anyways ;) but it does tactically work the same ideas as 'combat' .

[anerlich]

So you're saying that in order to get some reasoning and insight into the minds of the original inventors of VT you are going to do all the forms with knives in your hands???? Then you're implying that you are going to improve VT from your findings????



I'm not implying or trying to improve anything. WTF are you on about?


Good luck with that!!!

I'm not doing what you are "accusing" me of doing, so I won't need or want it.

You need to calm down lest people think you are a petulant and obnoxious d!ck. T has that position covered already.

[Graham H]

I'm not implying or trying to improve anything. WTF are you on about?

I'm not doing what you are "accusing" me of doing, so I won't need or want it.

You need to calm down lest people think you are a petulant and obnoxious d!ck. T has that position covered already.

I'm not going to get a handbag fight with you. Easy to hurl abuse from the confines of your PC.

Its not possible to perform the open hand forms correctly with the knives. If you are doing the moves correctly its just not possible. If you are doing the moves incorrectly or have a different form then you can use a f***ing chainsaw on the end of your arms for all I care coz it makes the same amount of sense. :mad:

Conversations over for me.

Regards

Petulant and Obnoxious d!ck. :p

[t_niehoff]

To get some insight into of the original inventors, possibly.

Oh, that's rich. Get some insight into the reasoning and mindset of the original inventors. Really?

And how do you think that doing forms, and in this instance doing them in a way they were not "intended" to be performed, will give you this "insight"?

Want to get some insight into the reasoning and mindset of the "founders" of WCK? Then, maybe, just maybe, it would be a good idea to examine the WCK curriculum that the "founders" actually left us -- you know, things like the faat mun, the kuen kuit, the forms and/or points, the drills/exercises, etc.

[t_niehoff]

All forms can be done with the knives. Knife form should be done without the knives.

Much can be learned. Sure some minor changes have to be made but the weight of the knives can help you to discover interesting things about your structure and body usage.

Forms, empty hand or with weapons, are a waste of time.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Just separating this from a previous thread, as it dawned on me that I was (again!) going off subject! :( I was highlighting that the chamber hand position doesn't touch the chest because it is designed to hold a knife in the chambered hand. This suggests that the knife can be used in SLT and it has proven fme to be a very good therapy.





I'm not suggesting to do this as a comparisson to the BJD, but as an additional way to train SLT. A great tool for alignment and awareness imho.

Who has ever tried this out and what are your views to such training?

Of course you can use the SLT form as is or alter it to fit your needs, including the fist chamber, thus the name. It is really up to you and your own imagination. However, I really do not think the proper chamber has anything to do with knives of any sort.

[k gledhill]

forms are vital for isolating elbow movement angles etc... and time to focus on our structure before testing in 'sticking arm' drills ...

a way to maintain the repetition of actions with growing ideas in place....when we started the dynamic isotonic elbow in SLT as beginners we didnr know how it would develop into 'solid' elbow angle strength for fighting....

you don't isolate this while fighting : )

the thing to avoid is seeking to make the forms all about 'applications' .

just as the knife form gives us a way to practice foot and body hand unity before engaging in combat there are stages of isolation to see errors in YOUR individual workout. To improve them before doing it fighting with NO TIME TO THINK about improving the actions....

form is just solo time for us. but obviously utilize your time with partners available to exchange force and do mutual drills including ending with sparrimg every time you can.

[Liddel]

I have to agree that its pointless to fuse any of the hand forms with either of the weapons.

IMO it will only serve to teach bad habbits for either hands or use of the weapons.

The most important aspect from which everything else flows IMO are completly different...that being RANGE.

I dont know why people look for over complicated menaings in things, often the most simple answer is the correct one.

The chambered hand IMO has nothing to do with the BJD, in fact if one really knew the use of the BJD youd soon realise the shortfall of this thinking, although i remain open to the fact we could be completly different in application.

You might as well try Zumba with the BJD it would be as effective IMO :o

People should spend more time training Chi Do or sparring with them FIRST and not just thinking they know what thier doing from forms.

That being said... the state of the BJD in VT is crazy IMO anyway. Gap Do is a perfect example of a lot of people having no clue... including (to my surprise) well known respected people.

I use it as a tool to identify people who either
- clearly just do forms and dont apply it, OR
- appply it in a totally different way than i do.

For their sake i hope its the second option. :o

DREW

[anerlich]

I'm not going to get a handbag fight with you. Easy to hurl abuse from the confines of your PC.

I don't think I'm the one who got worked up or cast the first abusive stone form behind the confines.


Conversations over for me.

Others will appreciate that more than you, I think.

[Sihing73]

I have to agree that its pointless to fuse any of the hand forms with either of the weapons. DREW

Hello,

While I would agree that you cannot simply do the SNT with knives in hand, you would need to make changes. Wouldn 't is also hold true that the knives are based on the empty hands? That being the case would not the hand movements or concepts behind the hand movements already be "fused" into the knife form from the othe forms?

Range is important as well as body position and angling and the knives teach this which can carry over into the other forms, without weapons.

No need to try and reinvent the wheel............still when one stops thinking and exploring then one becomes stagnant. Of course exploration does not mean you need to add on from outside to improve but sometimes delve deeper within to find what may already be there.

Looking into things, even those which do not work may enhance ones knowledge and understanding of what is already there.

Doubltess spoken like a true TNF Theoratical Non Fighter) ;)

[k gledhill]

some 'ideas' do x over, like maintaining centerline integrity, learning to turn with the body line defended as CK . iow the knives also hold the centerline to prevent entry as centerline theory, they dont leave the line when holding a defensive position...some parries use both knives on the apex to 'double' ensure the barrier and allow us to keep slashing while one knife keeps the line defense or follows the triangle to a shoulder line as we cut with the other hand simultaneously.....no swapping pirate sword fighting, :D or twirling jumping wushu stuff..like VT, its simple ideas are sophisticated.

[LoneTiger108]

Of course you can use the SLT form as is or alter it to fit your needs, including the fist chamber, thus the name. It is really up to you and your own imagination.

It would be interesting to 'see' how you practise the SLT with knives, as I'm pretty sure that mine doesn't change much at all. It really depends on what arrivals you want to be included, but that's another thread too. ;)


The knives teach you to fight against other weapons. Apart from guns :D. Using the knives compliments the hands but thats it. In fact one of the first drills you learn in the knives teaches you how to handle them properly to saves us injuring ourselves with the blades.

I'm really interested to find out how you and your mates ideas differ from this.

I await your reply.

GH

Graham, it aint about me and my mates dude, it's about simplicity and common sense imho. I do not train with anyone on this forum, and I have only met a few! You seem to be transfixed on the ideas you were shown, so please share with us your 1st knife lesson :D

FWIW I also use a sheath, and the first lessons were 'how not to draw' the knives and 'defending your weapon'. Similar with the pole too. I'd suggest that if you have been shown the areas of forms that 'cut your own arm off' as a reason for not doing such moves, then we have learnt from a totally different viewpoint. Also, if you're first lessons were the form itself we have a definite difference.

Nothing wrong in that, but if you think your way is the only way because it comes from WSL I would think again. :rolleyes: As good a martial artist he was, what you suggest contradicts what I have seen him do myself. For example, even in the recent tribute clip WSL is seen practising a movement from the knives with empty hands AND a certain side body empty hand drill that's taken directly from the pole form.


That being said... the state of the BJD in VT is crazy IMO anyway. Gap Do is a perfect example of a lot of people having no clue... including (to my surprise) well known respected people.

Please explain 'Gap Do' and what you mean as the term in unfamiliar to me. Do you mean Kup Dao?

As we must all be aware by now, there is no point going to the elder generations if you have been scolded before. The development of our Wing Chun depends on our selves having the foresight and honesty to do something about it.

These 'well known respected people' may be so because of marketing, not because of reputation as a weaponry practitioner. :o

[k gledhill]

"For example, even in the recent tribute clip WSL is seen practising a movement from the knives with empty hands AND a certain side body empty hand drill that's taken directly from the pole form."
??

whats your point ?

trying to make it 'ok' that YOU do SLT form with knives is also revealing...

[LoneTiger108]

whats your point ?

trying to make it 'ok' that YOU do SLT form with knives is also revealing...

Maybe I should have posted this quote instead...


Its not possible to perform the open hand forms correctly with the knives. If you are doing the moves correctly its just not possible.

My point is, even when the knife is not in my hand, it is. As is the pole. It's not my fault I trained this way, it was just the way it was for me.

Also, that word 'correctly' is for people who are holding onto some far away memory, of a time when everything that was 'said' was taken to the extreme. I trained from the written word, and don't have to try and remember 'what Sifu said' at all.

And I'm not trying to make it 'okay' for anyone to practise SLT with the knives. Whatever floats your boat is fine! It's more for the people who may have felt like they have taken SLT into their heart and feel comfortable with the seed of Wing Chun.

It's interesting and revealing to see how certain people react to 'alternative' methods. All I'm putting forward is a little idea, to compliment our little idea. That's all.

[Liddel]

Please explain 'Gap Do' and what you mean as the term in unfamiliar to me. Do you mean Kup Dao?

Yes sorry, i'm hooked on phonics lol...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhFU0_iBRBE
@53 sec

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wR70xqeum4&feature=related
@23 sec


would not the hand movements or concepts behind the hand movements already be "fused" into the knife form from the othe forms?

Fair call Dave and IMO the reason i don't think it necessary to further fuse the applications. It would only serve to make bad habbits.

There a several actions in SLT that make you focus on important aspects for hand to hand fighting but lend poorly to weapon use IMO, they would give you a dangerous mindset...

My question is why not fuse them through Chi Do ? why bother adding another element. I remain in line with spencer in that 'each to thier own' but the question was asked and i answered IMO...

The chambered side in the hand form is not related to the DO IMO.


For example, even in the recent tribute clip WSL is seen practising a movement from the knives with empty hands AND a certain side body empty hand drill that's taken directly from the pole form.

Yes and we can practice the Jong applications in the air also in fixed order or as we see fit, similar to shadow boxing.

However training knife actions with free hands is still maintaining the mechanics and range for the weapons its not putting it into SLT.


All I'm putting forward is a little idea, to compliment our little idea. That's all.

My honest opinion is that you could complicate things, but the reality is that if you have a firm base of knowledge and regularly practice Chi Do then you know the pros and cons, so have at it....

DREW

[LoneTiger108]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhFU0_iBRBE
@53 sec

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wR70xqeum4&feature=related
@23 sec

Nice clip of Ip Chun. I think I've used that before to also suggest that the 'sleeve' knife is part of the BJD (which also links nicely to Chum Kiu) With regards to what you mentioned about Gak Dao, I think I know what you mean now (it wasn't Kup Dao!)

Out of interest, what have you seen and what were the issues? Looks simple enough to me if you know angling. Must admit though, if you're young and full of energy I don't know why the h*ll you would be going that slowly with the knives. Must be an 'instructional' thing. :rolleyes:


My honest opinion is that you could complicate things, but the reality is that if you have a firm base of knowledge and regularly practice Chi Do then you know the pros and cons, so have at it....

DREW

Well Drew, I would like to see how people attempt chidao, especially if their chisau is anything like what I see! Unfortunately fme, many people have a very early version of chisau and that has not developed. 2 posture rotations is not what it is imho. Can you imagine the damage done with all that slapping about?? nasty little cuts everywhere, but no real chops! :D

For me, if you can't even stick your knife to a pole you have no chance sticking to another knife. I have yet to meet or see anyone accomplish chidao, other than my brothers of course.

[Liddel]

Out of interest, what have you seen and what were the issues? Looks simple enough to me if you know angling.

My Form reflects the base mechanics of application, you don't need to know angling with what we call Gup Do (sp??), its as is in the form ?

The issue is the position/angle of the action in a lot of forms sets out there, which if applied in the same manner as shown in those clips, doesn't have sound support nor safety from getting hit.

Something that one would pick up on in the first instance of training Chi Do. (unless as previously mentioned the application is tottaly different than mine, in most cases application vids prove...its not :( )



For me, if you can't even stick your knife to a pole you have no chance sticking to another knife. I have yet to meet or see anyone accomplish chidao, other than my brothers of course.

In our Chi Do we began Do to Do and worked towards trading with the LDB, for me Chi Do with the pole is more difficult due to range and the huge difference in force. Certainly livens up the horse the most. each to their own :)

I guess i should have asked what you hope to gain or whats the purpose in your mind of using the Do in SLT ?

[Graham H]

Can somebody tell me what Ip Chun is doing with the knives in that video?? It can't understand Cantonese but maybe he is showing his followers how not to use the knives.

[Lee Chiang Po]

The butterfly knives have their own form don't they? So why would you want to do them in the sil lim? It is like going to a ***** house to masterbate. I swear, you can read some silly $hit here.

[Graham H]

I swear, you can read some silly $hit here.

Correct. More than all other WC forums. Its worrying!

[k gledhill]

Its good to hear someone else register that one. Exactly, there is a specific form for knives, so why try to do it in SLT when the obvious reasons for not doing them in SLT are so apparent.


Darwin comes to mind, so we can let that one go to natures way of weeding out bad ideas :D:D the only thing missing is using a real razor edge on the knives to spar.

If you still feel like being close to a guy you just made angrier by cutting his stomach open as he wildly swings blades at you ..then watch this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lv_xH-yMPsA&feature=player_embedded

plus the idea of turning you hands inside the arms as a high/low gaunsao...., yup,Darwin. There is a specific drill for this alone.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

While the traditional forms are all good and fine, is anyone really arguing that there is not room for exploration?

My Sifu has changed the sequence of the Wu and Fook in the SNT for reasons based on their actual application. He has also taught some of the footwork not usually encountered until the BJD, as it helps prepare one for applications earlier and teached angling, for one thing.

He has also, like William Cheung, taught a shifting SNT and Stepping CK form. No one in our lineage would try to say that the traditional forms are not relevant. Just that sometimes adding footwork to the forms can help one to understand application much earlier and in a more clear way. Of course this is open to arugment and personal preference as well.

As to doing the SNT with the Knives, as I have stated before, doing so would not translate over to the empyhands without modification. However, the idea of performing some of the movements with a blade, be it the BJD or a pocket or fixed blade knife, does seem of some interest.

FWIW, AKTS has sticking hands as well and part of the more advanced exercise sticking is done while holding knives (blunted or training but still knives). Naturally, the hand positions and energy changes from empty hands to holding a blade.

[k gledhill]

the first actions shown to student of VT knives is to simply repeat the basic stabs and chops from parallel grips along the line, not Xing it as SLT. For a very good reason.
The foot work used in knives is to gain tactical isolation of an advancing line of force by flanking its leading action[if possible]. this is from the idea of facing yourself with 2 edged weapons.
By adopting wider steps to attack arms/limbs rather than gain immediate entry to the body we further make the % work for us. We retreat quickly after making the 'cuts' for safety. So we adopt long steps with defensive actions simultaneously covering upper and lower gates to avoid 'thinking' of covering gates as we 're-group'.

Changing the wu sao and fok sao sequence ? I have observed this done by your Sifu, but dont understand the thinking.

the Chum kil and SLT are one, a bubble, so to speak. Without the shifting of the SLT it wont work, so adding a 'shifting' SLT isnt wrong at all.If anything it will help to break guys out of the 'fight in chi-sao' mind set.
The Dummy is the combination of the forms , shifting and angling with force and structure alignment, further developed.

The 'movement' of the chum kil should allow the body weight to add momentum to the actions...iow if you step first then drag you lose the body momentum. You can step or shuffle as long as your aware of the 'timing' ALL IN ONE..not step 1 arms 2 drag leg 3 :D

same goes for fighting , momentum is our friend , we learn to control it and use it with axis control and hip action from CK , Seung ma toi ma, etc...and pre-fighting drills.
Using the shifting as a way to flank your own VT partners coming at you will further develop their ability to instantly shift and face while attacking using momentum in an unbroken random attack sequence.

The dummy furthers this 'explosive' combination of 3 into 1 . fighting guys who know this simple timing is enlightening. Time spent in doing bad timing wont help you, or bad habits of chasing the hands of the 'eminent explosion' coming at you :D

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . . .If you still feel like being close to a guy you just made angrier by cutting his stomach open as he wildly swings blades at you ..then watch this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lv_xH-yMPsA&feature=player_embedded

plus the idea of turning you hands inside the arms as a high/low gaunsao...., yup,Darwin. There is a specific drill for this alone.
I have a pair of the Cold Steel BJD and there are no joke. I think they are the best combat ready BJD available. They can go through a car door. I'm really careful when I use them. ;)
.

[Sihing73]

Changing the wu sao and fok sao sequence ? I have observed this done by your Sifu, but dont understand the thinking.

the Chum kil and SLT are one, a bubble, so to speak. Without the shifting of the SLT it wont work, so adding a 'shifting' SLT isnt wrong at all.If anything it will help to break guys out of the 'fight in chi-sao' mind set.
:D

Hello,

The forward Wu is in the CK so there is nothing wrong, IMHO, with changing the sequence in the form. Consider, does the energy of the Fook, in application, actually go forward? Or does it ride the opponents energy, usually coming in towards you and allow redirction? Does the Fook ever really go forward on its own?

The Wu is usually applied in a forward motion. When it does retract it is only because of the opponents energy coming into you. Also, consider, if you can project your WU forward than allowing it to be redirected back to you is easier. As a matter of fact, in the traditional manner, while one does retract the Wu the energy is still stressed to go forward.

My Sifu changed the sequence to stress the application and make it easier for students to understand how the techniques work in reality.

I agree with your view of the SNT and CK.

Not saying our approach is the "right" one or best, but hope that I was able to explain my perception of the reasoning.

[Sihing73]

I have a pair of the Cold Steel BJD and there are no joke. I think they are the best combat ready BJD available. They can go through a car door. I'm really careful when I use them. ;)
.

Hey Phil,

The guy who introduced me to WC let me try his Knives and I cut myself just under the arm while swinging them around. I remember him laughing at me for that, :D

I also remember once while swinging a three sectional staf around trying to impress my girlfriend that I hit myself in the head. She laughed too. :o

At least I have never shot myself in the foot, or anywhere else. :D

[Graham H]

Hello,

My Sifu has changed the sequence of the Wu and Fook in the SNT for reasons based on their actual application.

.

Wu Sau and Fook Sau in SLT are concepts not applications!!!

GH

[Sihing73]

Wu Sau and Fook Sau in SLT are concepts not applications!!!

GH

Hello Graham,

Actually, everything is a "concept" as the application changes based on the situation. You could argue that Taun changes based on the energy encountered, for example. The "concept" of Taun, for example, allows the Taun to become a punch if the energy encountered is not enough to form the shape of Taun as the energy should be forward.

However, the "aaplication" of the concept is what I was refering to, forgot whom I was talking to as some will argue about any and everything ;)

So, please explain to me what the "concept" of a retracting WU is teaching? Does Wu withdraw on its own power either in application or concept?

Also, while the family of Fook does have Jum and Jut Sau, which one could argue have forward energy, does the Fook "concept" go forward on its own power?

Since you mention the idea of concept; please enlighten me on what the "concept" pf WU and Fook are and how those concepts translate into application. Who knows, perhaps in my training I've missed soemthing ;)

I have always said that our opponent dictates what we use as it is a reaction to their energy which forms the shape of our "techniques".

[LoneTiger108]

While the traditional forms are all good and fine, is anyone really arguing that there is not room for exploration?

I'm all for people expressing their views, but apparently this thread has just turned into why NOT to do SLT with the knives. Exploration seems to be a swear word round here. :rolleyes:

[Graham H]

Actually, everything is a "concept" as the application changes based on the situation. You could argue that Taun changes based on the energy encountered, for example. The "concept" of Taun, for example, allows the Taun to become a punch if the energy encountered is not enough to form the shape of Taun as the energy should be forward.

Hello S

The idea Tan Sau never changes. Tan Sau is a certain punch as is Fook Sau. What do you mean by "encountering energy"? This is not my way of thinking.


However, the "aaplication" of the concept is what I was refering to, forgot whom I was talking to as some will argue about any and everything ;)

In SLT there are no applications in my lineage. SLT is very one dimensional and cannot be used for fighting. Chum Kiu teaches one how to use VT. SLT is just a precursor in order to set the correct foundations. The correct way of the punch, training the legs for supporting the punch and also some small arm movements for position.


So, please explain to me what the "concept" of a retracting WU is teaching? Does Wu withdraw on its own power either in application or concept?

Wu Sau must return otherwise we cannot train another Fook Sau unless you know of another way. Of course there are other fundamental ideas but SLT is small. Only attention is given to the elbow and not much else.


Also, while the family of Fook does have Jum and Jut Sau, which one could argue have forward energy, does the Fook "concept" go forward on its own power?

Jut Sau is not the same as fook sau. Fook Sau is a punch. Jut sau opens the way for the punch.


Since you mention the idea of concept; please enlighten me on what the "concept" pf WU and Fook are and how those concepts translate into application. Who knows, perhaps in my training I've missed soemthing ;)

No point we have different ideas. Different lineages, different ideas. We must go with what makes sense I guess.

Chow.

GH

[LoneTiger108]

Can somebody tell me what Ip Chun is doing with the knives in that video?? It can't understand Cantonese but maybe he is showing his followers how not to use the knives.

Hmmm :rolleyes:

I'm sure this is a longer form than most I have seen, but like you have said, maybe past teachers have took parts away they didn't like, or didn't know.

FWIW The terms being shouted out are just numerical references "Dai Yaat Jam" is the first chop "Dai Yee Jam" second and so on. Pretty old damaged footage though, and I'm not talking about Ip Chun there... ;)

[Graham H]

Hmmm :rolleyes:

I'm sure this is a longer form than most I have seen, but like you have said, maybe past teachers have took parts away they didn't like, or didn't know.

FWIW The terms being shouted out are just numerical references "Dai Yaat Jam" is the first chop "Dai Yee Jam" second and so on. Pretty old damaged footage though, and I'm not talking about Ip Chun there... ;)

I think you may have missed my sarcasm there bro. :)

[LoneTiger108]

I think you may have missed my sarcasm there bro. :)

Must have? I could swear it was just another swipe at poor old Ip Chun and his 'flipping' knives :eek:


the first actions shown to student of VT knives is to simply repeat the basic stabs and chops from parallel grips along the line, not Xing it as SLT. For a very good reason.

Can you explain why you don't use the 'x' with the knives? Why this opening set is NOT in your BJD?


If you still feel like being close to a guy you just made angrier by cutting his stomach open as he wildly swings blades at you ..then watch this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lv_xH...layer_embedded

I can see from the clip that this guy has drilled the knives... :rolleyes::o

[LoneTiger108]

The butterfly knives have their own form don't they? So why would you want to do them in the sil lim

This is the same question I am looking for answers to. Unfortunately I'm not hearing anything that makes sense so far.

I guess I should have asked people how long they have been standing in their kim yeung practising slt, as it seems that very few have even tried to 'develop'the form at all. For me it's slt for one reason, and that's because it IS just a little idea that NEEDS developing and training THROUGHOUT your journey in WCK.

A concept I train is called "Siu Lim Kuen Toh" which allows for this type of experimentation. If you haven't heard that expression before may explain why you don't do what I do. And if what I do is NOT WCK, then please tell me what IS?

[Sihing73]

Hello S

The idea Tan Sau never changes. Tan Sau is a certain punch as is Fook Sau. What do you mean by "encountering energy"? This is not my way of thinking.

In SLT there are no applications in my lineage. SLT is very one dimensional and cannot be used for fighting. Chum Kiu teaches one how to use VT. SLT is just a precursor in order to set the correct foundations. The correct way of the punch, training the legs for supporting the punch and also some small arm movements for position.

Wu Sau must return otherwise we cannot train another Fook Sau unless you know of another way. Of course there are other fundamental ideas but SLT is small. Only attention is given to the elbow and not much else.

Jut Sau is not the same as fook sau. Fook Sau is a punch. Jut sau opens the way for the punch.

No point we have different ideas. Different lineages, different ideas. We must go with what makes sense I guess.

Chow.

GH

Hello Graham,

What I mean by encountering energy is simply that your opponent provides the energy which produces the shape of your reaction. If the opponents energy is not enough to stop your punch then you punch. If the energy is great enough then you form Taun, Bong or whatever is appropriate at the time.

What is your understanding of the "idea of Taun"?

If SNT does not provide an answer for applications, I agree that the form is for learning concepts, then does that mean that you believe that you cannot fight until after learning CK? Are you of the mind that Taun, Wu, Pak, Bong and Gaun, among others, are not "applications"? If I use a Bong Sau to deflect a punch has not the Bong become an application by its very use?

In our approach the Wu changes to a Fook and is then retracted back, so I guess I do know another way :)

I don't believe I ever said that Jut was the same as Fook, just that Just is a part of the Fook family or seed.

I do not agree that Fook Sau is a punch. Fook is used to listen to the opponents energy. Thus one reason why Fook normally retracts.

There is always a point to open discussion. While we may not agree, we may learn from one another and have our eyes opened to another idea or approach. IMHO, being unable or unwilling to explain a simple thing like how one takes the Concept of WU or Fook does not show a real interest in dialogue nor a willingness to share nor explore the ideas of others.

If we all do WC and come from the same seed, then we should be able to find common ground no matter what the differences. One thing I respect about my Sifu is his willingness to visit with other WC people and explore their pov's, bringing back what he finds applicable and intergrating it into our system.

[k gledhill]

Must have? I could swear it was just another swipe at poor old Ip Chun and his 'flipping' knives :eek:

Ive chi-saoed with him and his brother.....complete opposites.



Can you explain why you don't use the 'x' with the knives? Why this opening set is NOT in your BJD?

we x with the wrists along the centerline for a reason. We dont x wrists on the line with knives, iow we dont intersect the line and do tut sao with knives in hands.



I can see from the clip that this guy has drilled the knives... :rolleyes::o

he isnt doing a form for you :D the point of the clip is to help clarify the reasons you dont want to have a SLT centerline xing wrists accident ...

ask yourself WHY would you need to do slt with blades , when you have a knife form and drills to make you NOT do it like SLT ?

[LoneTiger108]

we x with the wrists along the centerline for a reason. We dont x wrists on the line with knives, iow we dont intersect the line and do tut sao with knives in hands.

Okay it's clearer now. We have totally different views on the cross hands opening. Yes, we talk about the line "at the beginning" but for me there is much more to the method than this.

I feel your reasoning for not 'tut saoing' maybe because your hands revolve inwards which would cause a loss of an arm? Makes sense, if you have no other way but what if there is another way? Are you even interested?


ask yourself WHY would you need to do slt with blades , when you have a knife form and drills to make you NOT do it like SLT ?

First off I don't NEED to, I CHOOSE to because the way I was taught was open for you to build your knowledge base and expand this 'little idea'.

I would suggest that if you are doing any drills or forms that DO NOT RELATE TO SLT, then you are possibly being drawn off course imho. EVERYTHING is connected to SLT or it wouldn't be so important to begin with!


In SLT there are no applications in my lineage. SLT is very one dimensional and cannot be used for fighting.

Is this another Bayer/WSL quote that has held on for the past twenty years??!! :rolleyes: I can fully understand why this would be told to beginners, or people you may not want to teach, but seriously??

Why is the sau/hand in SLT to be kept relaxed when you FIRST learn the form? Apart from the obvious 'elbow' concentration, I would take it as an indication that the hand can become anything you want it to be later in your journey. This may well include holding a fist, and there you have all the basic gin san fist combinations of WCK in one easy stroke. It may also be a preparation to hold equipment, or weaponry. Little ideas are precious imho :D

Just a few thoughts that have been shared with me by someone who has had plenty more exposure to the style than anyone I know. But that seems to make no difference on forums where everyone is just so interested in fighting fighting fighting!


If we all do WC and come from the same seed, then we should be able to find common ground no matter what the differences. One thing I respect about my Sifu is his willingness to visit with other WC people and explore their pov's, bringing back what he finds applicable and intergrating it into our system.

A common dream :D If we could all come together there would be no need to discuss things so openly on a public forum!! I personally think the majority here would actual get on very well, as there is one common passion that must exist in all of us. A passion to learn...

[k gledhill]

Yeah totally differing views of the X wrists.

[Graham H]

Yeah totally differing views of the X wrists.

totally different views on everything they have kev!!:)

[Sihing73]

totally different views on everything they have kev!!:)

Hello,

A bold statement as I have yet to actually see you present your views and reasoning ;)

Sometimes by not engaging in discourse nor explaining ones views and reasoning one shows quite a bit :D

Since this is a forum for discussion, it would seem that one would or should be willing to discuss differing pov........but then again perhaps all are not here with the desire nor intent to discuss with others. :rolleyes:

[k gledhill]

totally different views on everything they have kev!!:)

I know ;) but thats a lot of typing with 2 fingers ! :D

[k gledhill]

Hello,

A bold statement as I have yet to actually see you present your views and reasoning ;)

Sometimes by not engaging in discourse nor explaining ones views and reasoning one shows quite a bit :D

Since this is a forum for discussion, it would seem that one would or should be willing to discuss differing pov........but then again perhaps all are not here with the desire nor intent to discuss with others. :rolleyes:

Er...I have been trying to explain for a while now..Terence calls it "fantasy" :D and it cant possibly be real. Others want to use tan sao to spread away from the line as a block...others wash hands to get rid of pesky wrist grabs using tut sao....
If it wasnt for GH I would be surrounded with ???? whats he talking about ????

It has to be explained with actions sadly. so the forums cant help. Ive tried posting clips of P Bayer too...but alas, without hands on its just another video.

Then having a guy ask do we do the knives in SLT and we say no, we have a seperate specialized form for knives and he is then all huffy becasue we dont just 'explooore' the SLT more :rolleyes:..

[k gledhill]

Hello Graham,

What I mean by encountering energy is simply that your opponent provides the energy which produces the shape of your reaction. If the opponents energy is not enough to stop your punch then you punch. If the energy is great enough then you form Taun, Bong or whatever is appropriate at the time.

What is your understanding of the "idea of Taun"?

If SNT does not provide an answer for applications, I agree that the form is for learning concepts, then does that mean that you believe that you cannot fight until after learning CK? Are you of the mind that Taun, Wu, Pak, Bong and Gaun, among others, are not "applications"? If I use a Bong Sau to deflect a punch has not the Bong become an application by its very use?

In our approach the Wu changes to a Fook and is then retracted back, so I guess I do know another way :)

I don't believe I ever said that Jut was the same as Fook, just that Just is a part of the Fook family or seed.

I do not agree that Fook Sau is a punch. Fook is used to listen to the opponents energy. Thus one reason why Fook normally retracts.

There is always a point to open discussion. While we may not agree, we may learn from one another and have our eyes opened to another idea or approach. IMHO, being unable or unwilling to explain a simple thing like how one takes the Concept of WU or Fook does not show a real interest in dialogue nor a willingness to share nor explore the ideas of others.

If we all do WC and come from the same seed, then we should be able to find common ground no matter what the differences. One thing I respect about my Sifu is his willingness to visit with other WC people and explore their pov's, bringing back what he finds applicable and intergrating it into our system.

Tan sau and jum sao are punches

fok sao is for drilling to keep the elbows inwards for striking and forwards for a jum sao punch [aka inward elbow strike], the opposite to a tan elbow spreading and striking...each strike uses its opposite partner for alignment in DRILLS you open an elbow or your fok sao is weak and pow ! you get tan punched and vice versa, pretty intense :D. We dont fight in chi-sao just improve elbows , stances, development for free fighting from no chi-sao :D...and NOT FOR DIRTY CLINCHING.. sorry Ter.
The proof of the VT fighting is best seen in sparring not chi-saoing with another person. The idea fo extending equally is simply to offer each fighter the opposite arms to strike against and begin a starting point for other drills and ideas to nurture..


wu sao is a recycling hand in fighting to maintain the centerline as we launch attack after attack...it can intercept attacks along the line and doesnt collapse but also strikes forwards as a punch ..iow it doesnt seek out contact in the fingers up wu sao position...why would it ? it is a tut sao cycle...

Making attack after attack isnt easy :D

[Sihing73]

Hello Kevin,

My post was directed at Graham but I appreciate your taking the time to respond.

I do not agree that Jum is a punch, I see it as a deflection which can can open the line to punch. However, the Jum itself is not a punch, the energy is wrong and has to be changed in order to be used as a punch. Dan Chi illustrates this perfectly, you can Jum the incoming Punch and then you change to a fist and ride the arm up in a punch. Two seperate and distinct movements, not one.

In a Bong Sau/Wu Sau is the Wu really recycling? I see it as a supplement to the Bong, as a second line of defense. Again, if the incoming energy is not forceful enough then the Wu becomes something else, a Lop or whatever. Of course you could argue that the Lop Da drill is an example of recycling using Wu ;)

Actually, making attack after attack is not all that difficult, imho, if one understands WC/WT/VT. After all, is not one of the core principles to link and continue with various techniques?? There are many arts which demonstrate the idea of repeatedly attacking, not just WC.

Do you actually punch with the Taun Shape??? Or does the Taun have to transform into a palm or a punch in order to strike. I am afraid I am unfamiliar with the "Taun Punch" you reference.

Graham stated that Wu and Fook are concepts? I asked for an explanation of how he views those "concepts" since he made it clear, in his post, that they were not applications. I guess what I am getting at is that while one needs to understand the concepts of the system, one must also realize that to utilize those concepts they need to be applicable.

Consider the action of sweeping the floor with a broom. Would the broom be the application or the concept and which one would be the sweeping?

I don't think that one needs to train the SNT with knives, the Knife Form is there for those who have learned it. However, the understanding of how to use a knife from within the core of SNT certainly could be of benefit, imho.

Some people mere BJJ with their WC and this is not for everyone. However, if someone finds that exploring another art is to their benefit and, for them, enhances their WC than what is the problem?

Does anyone actually think that we practice WC as those before us did? Before Yip Man incorporated Poon Sau did we roll in Chi Sau?

[k gledhill]

I think your confusing JUT = jerking [terence hand] :D for JUM =inward elbow strike

dan chi-sao = tan versus jum = outward elbow strike versus inward elbow strike done in a 1-2 timing...a basic level 101 of hitting.

many have eliminated jum from the beginning of their SLT , going stright from tan sao to wu sao ...there is a jum sao in there :D so X wrists along line, punch either hand then tan,huen, jum, to wu, when you do wu the elbow moves or 'relaxes' outwards then moves back across centerline and forwards elbow in ..to fok sao, wrist relaxed....the basic techniques for drilling chi-sao. Lat sao chit cheung..

inward & outward elbow

jum sao is done in dan chi to incorporate the 2 energies together as a single strike , inward force of the elbow with alignment of a fist forwards in 2 actions, later becoming redundant , being used to freefight as a simple 'one' action strike later.
so we can use a simultaneous attacking action using the forearm as a 'second' hand as the fist strikes....
Tan uses the outside of the arm as the elbow naturally expands as we strike...later becoming a simple strike.

we use a vertical palm to make the tan elbow expand and a horizontal palm to make our elbow inwards as jum..

jum and tan are the primary centerline attacking actions....either arm stays on the line , but with simple facing uses the opposite sides of the attacking arms , while still attacking.

Because they can maintain attacks, they meet counter defense on the line...

bong is used to remake a strike that has gone over your arm [ like chi-sao ] so the wu sao can be another attacking action...

the bong sao should work alone to deflect force, like a boxer uses the forearm to fend off strikes over his arm...

bong elbow drops as the 'action of ' tutsao is done , opening up the wu strike line that sweeps forwards intersecting the centerline at the wrist , striking to the target....jut or lop come after trying to attack along the line ...or you make sequential defense moves by habit rather than meeting an interruption stopping an attacking action 1st.

tut sao actually 'sweeps' the centerline of any 'potential' contact as the wu becomes a striking action, iow you can still strike as your primary action knowing the centerline idea will be swept by your arm and defend your own line at the same time....sounds like a commecrial.."it sweeps and strikes its centerline as the alignment from training" ....not application but developing the ability to deliver a mindless assault, relentless, like water crashing on rocks, following the cracks of the rocks as they appear.
not an application , its developing our timing to recover and strike in one beat, 'sweeping ' the line as we strike with the forearms/fists/ low elbows... delivering an intercepting fist delivering simultaneous attack and defense in ONE action each strike...
from the opening X'ed wrists the tut sao is the alternation of the same hands that open each form.....centerline fighters.

[shawchemical]

Just separating this from a previous thread, as it dawned on me that I was (again!) going off subject! :( I was highlighting that the chamber hand position doesn't touch the chest because it is designed to hold a knife in the chambered hand. This suggests that the knife can be used in SLT and it has proven fme to be a very good therapy.





I'm not suggesting to do this as a comparisson to the BJD, but as an additional way to train SLT. A great tool for alignment and awareness imho.

Who has ever tried this out and what are your views to such training?

You're wrong mate.

The reason the hand is chambered is because the stretch provides a way to train the punch. It also is chambered because it helps keep the body in alignment.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with holding a knife.

Just train SLT, stop trying to find different ways to train it and just train it as it is.

[k gledhill]

Okay it's clearer now. We have totally different views on the cross hands opening. Yes, we talk about the line "at the beginning" but for me there is much more to the method than this.

I feel your reasoning for not 'tut saoing' maybe because your hands revolve inwards which would cause a loss of an arm? Makes sense, if you have no other way but what if there is another way? Are you even interested?



First off I don't NEED to, I CHOOSE to because the way I was taught was open for you to build your knowledge base and expand this 'little idea'.

I would suggest that if you are doing any drills or forms that DO NOT RELATE TO SLT, then you are possibly being drawn off course imho. EVERYTHING is connected to SLT or it wouldn't be so important to begin with!



Is this another Bayer/WSL quote that has held on for the past twenty years??!! :rolleyes: I can fully understand why this would be told to beginners, or people you may not want to teach, but seriously??

Why is the sau/hand in SLT to be kept relaxed when you FIRST learn the form? Apart from the obvious 'elbow' concentration, I would take it as an indication that the hand can become anything you want it to be later in your journey. This may well include holding a fist, and there you have all the basic gin san fist combinations of WCK in one easy stroke. It may also be a preparation to hold equipment, or weaponry. Little ideas are precious imho :D

Just a few thoughts that have been shared with me by someone who has had plenty more exposure to the style than anyone I know. But that seems to make no difference on forums where everyone is just so interested in fighting fighting fighting!



A common dream :D If we could all come together there would be no need to discuss things so openly on a public forum!! I personally think the majority here would actual get on very well, as there is one common passion that must exist in all of us. A passion to learn...

We use the Forms for developing an idea to fight with. we dont fight like the forms are executed ....theres a story of WSL being challenged by a guy in HK. Before they had their fight, they showed forms of each others styles/systems. Wong did the Chum Kil :D so the guy immediately thinks this guy fights like the form :D:D:D and want s to fight ...no need for the outcome....

[Graham H]

No need for me to reply today. Kevin has explained it. Shawchemical also made a good post.

Sihing? I know you don't agree but its not important. We have different ideas. If you feel that our idea of Tan Fook Bong etc are wrong then its no problem. We don't agree with you and you don't agree with us. Simples. ;)

GH

[Sihing73]

No need for me to reply today. Kevin has explained it. Shawchemical also made a good post.

Sihing? I know you don't agree but its not important. We have different ideas. If you feel that our idea of Tan Fook Bong etc are wrong then its no problem. We don't agree with you and you don't agree with us. Simples. ;)

GH

Graham,

Please do not think I would say you, or anyone else is "wrong". I have always said that each lineage has those who can make their approach work.

My interest is not in showing one is right and the other wrong, it is in open discussion so one is willing to explore other views. My only point was the explanation of why you feel the way you do was missing. While it is fine that someone else was able to explain your thinking, I feel it is also a good thing to be able to explain it yourself. Not a slight against you, just my observation, fwiw.

Our approaches may very well be different, then again, when shown in person it may be that we are not so far apart ;)

Sometimes, I like to play Devils advocate as well ;)
Oh, Kevin, I can assure you that I am not confusing Jut and Jum as they are two completely different energies. :D

[Graham H]

Graham,

Please do not think I would say you, or anyone else is "wrong". I have always said that each lineage has those who can make their approach work.

My interest is not in showing one is right and the other wrong, it is in open discussion so one is willing to explore other views. My only point was the explanation of why you feel the way you do was missing. While it is fine that someone else was able to explain your thinking, I feel it is also a good thing to be able to explain it yourself. Not a slight against you, just my observation, fwiw.

Our approaches may very well be different, then again, when shown in person it may be that we are not so far apart ;)

Sometimes, I like to play Devils advocate as well ;)
Oh, Kevin, I can assure you that I am not confusing Jut and Jum as they are two completely different energies. :D

Ok, No wrong or right....just different.

Fwiw, myself and Kevin have the same Teacher. We have the same ideas. Why do you want me to explain? Do you think I would offer a different explanation??? The only thing that will be different is how we word things. Nothing else.

I think our (myself and Sihing) way would be different if shown in person. I have experienced many lineages of Ving Tsun and WSLPB is the best system by far but thats only my opinion. I know Kevin shares this opinion because on the day we met Philipp Bayer everything changed....................for the better.:)

What do you mean by Jut and Jum being different "energies"????????? They used to use that term when I was in the Ip Chun lineage and you will notice that I am no longer!!!!! :D

GH

[Graham H]

To add....my thinking on the arm actions:

Tan Sau is a punch
Fook Sau is a punch
Wu Sau is you next hit position
Jum Sau is a punch
Jut Sau is part of an attack and also next hit position.
Bong Sau is part of an attack. It opens the way for the punch. Together they become Kwan Sau
Huen Sau is part of an attack and improvement for wrist rotation speed.
Pak Sau is a small shocking arm movement to open the way for the punch

Any other "sau" queries I will be happy to add:)

GH

[bennyvt]

Tan Sau is a punch (its the bit before the strike)
Fook Sau is a punch (re above)
Wu Sau is you next hit position (Normally held slightly to the side this would mean each strike would be coming from past, unless you are only talking from the gaurd position but normally the hand is on the centre with fingers pointing forward so not normally classed as a Wu sao)
Jum Sau is a punch (a slightly more forcefull fook sao when the elbow needs to be used more to divert/move/block so it normally has a slight delay before continuing to become a strike)
Jut Sau is part of an attack and also next hit position. (Any jerking movement that pulls either the hands or body out of position so you can then strike)
Bong Sau is part of an attack. It opens the way for the punch. Together they become Kwan Sau (moves/redirects/blocks a close punch when it is too late to use any other move. The elbow is faster to bring up then the entire arm so if the strike is already past my wrist a bong is used. Or when another technique is collapsing. Kwan sao is more of a movement then a technique. a bong and a punch is bong da)
Huen Sau is part of an attack and improvement for wrist rotation speed. (not sure on the wrist speed. heun moves something out of the way for a strike)
Pak Sau is a small shocking arm movement to open the way for the punch. (Sounds good to me)

[LoneTiger108]

It has to be explained with actions sadly. so the forums cant help. Ive tried posting clips of P Bayer too...but alas, without hands on its just another video.

Then having a guy ask do we do the knives in SLT and we say no, we have a seperate specialized form for knives and he is then all huffy becasue we dont just 'explooore' the SLT more :rolleyes:..

Okay let me make one thing clear here! I am not telling you to do anything, just sharing experience, whch is why I'm here. I like to read and see differences as well as similarities, and if I get in a 'huff' it's because sometimes I don't see any real attempt to even discuss ideas, let alone try them! Let's put it this way, I have had experience of WSL WCK, so I ask you to tell me your experience of Lee Shing WCK? Can you see what I mean?

With regards to Sifu Bayers clips being 'just another video', I can honestly say that I see that. He doesn't look any different to half the teachers out there, as they are all basically doing the same thing. Maybe his words just connected with you, as all our chosen Sifus words must have, but I find it interesting that many other people from WSL do not share your narrow views.


Fwiw, myself and Kevin have the same Teacher. We have the same ideas. Why do you want me to explain? Do you think I would offer a different explanation??? The only thing that will be different is how we word things. Nothing else.

You don't say! I woul never have guessed! :rolleyes:


To add....my thinking on the arm actions:

Tan Sau is a punch
Fook Sau is a punch
Wu Sau is you next hit position
Jum Sau is a punch
Jut Sau is part of an attack and also next hit position.
Bong Sau is part of an attack. It opens the way for the punch. Together they become Kwan Sau
Huen Sau is part of an attack and improvement for wrist rotation speed.
Pak Sau is a small shocking arm movement to open the way for the punch

Any other "sau" queries I will be happy to add

GH

A great example of what I was saying to Kevin. A very narrow minded view of what YOU believe WCK to be, or what you think a 'sau' is.

It's lucky your Sifu didn't ask you to write the characters you both talk about so much as I have still to hear you tell me what any of these terms mean.

[k gledhill]

I have met a lot of guys from many lineages who also met PB ;)

jut is a sudden backwards/downwards, elbow/forearm action, to make a way for the wu to make a punch.

the chain punch we do at the end of the forms has jut sao incorporated into it as it drops and moves backwards to make way for the following punch we send out...and repeat...if an opponent tries to get under our arms and make defense we keep hitting and jutting on the same lines as we attack on...

SO....:D jut is not jum

Jut sao normally comes from a 'X' made when opponents punching hands make contact , fighting, my left meets your left, my right etc...the more experienced fighter with a reflex for it will keep attacking on the line as he/she, juts the other arm so they can keep attacks going .

Jum sao moves forwards and inwards, together. It is the combination of a punch coupled simultaneously with centerline defense, using the inwards elbow position to keep the elbow behind the fist. Its a punch

the combination of tan [outside] and jum [ inside] allows the punches to stay on the centerline and 'face' the opponent as they move while the strikes maintain a defensive line /barrier AS they strike in rotation....each arm is/has tan and jum striking ability from the dan chi-sao onwards.

We move this striking attack with chum kil, we use the hips and momentum of the movements combined with simple attacking actions to create 'sudden impact' with body weight behind it.

[k gledhill]

Okay let me make one thing clear here! I am not telling you to do anything, just sharing experience, whch is why I'm here. I like to read and see differences as well as similarities, and if I get in a 'huff' it's because sometimes I don't see any real attempt to even discuss ideas, let alone try them! Let's put it this way, I have had experience of WSL WCK, so I ask you to tell me your experience of Lee Shing WCK? Can you see what I mean?

With regards to Sifu Bayers clips being 'just another video', I can honestly say that I see that. He doesn't look any different to half the teachers out there, as they are all basically doing the same thing. Maybe his words just connected with you, as all our chosen Sifus words must have, but I find it interesting that many other people from WSL do not share your narrow views.



You don't say! I woul never have guessed! :rolleyes:



A great example of what I was saying to Kevin. A very narrow minded view of what YOU believe WCK to be, or what you think a 'sau' is.

It's lucky your Sifu didn't ask you to write the characters you both talk about so much as I have still to hear you tell me what any of these terms mean.



:D you haven't got a clue. Your so busy with having so much in YOUR vt its left you thinking anyone with less is narrow minded :D

VT is simple and effective , no flag waving or 'rings of death' added...

did you ever wonder 'why' your exploring the SLT with knives ? :D I would venture a guess that it isnt because you understand the form at all, but the opposite. ;)

[bennyvt]

Hi kev,
I like the snide remarks about washing hands.
Still funny considering or "simple" idea was that you use biu jee when grabbed.
Lets break it down,
*THE FIRST PART OF THE MOVEMENT
The simple idea of learning to turn your wrist by using your elbow. Picture after doing a finger strike you bring your elbow back in. This is the same movement. So when your elbow is grabbed you use your elbow (making it massivly stronger then just turning the wrist) the bring your arm into a fighting position you can then use your waist and facing to choose what you want to do next.
*X WRISTS PART OF THE MOVEMENT
This teaches cycling of the hands like you would with any strike be that the punch or finger strike. I normally tell people to imagine you are striking a bucket of sand infront of you with your fingers. Always over the top even when striking low. This is normally the part when they say you hit the arm grabbing you and they let go. We don't teach this as any one who has tried this with someone bigger it just doesn't work
*Last section from arm down and hand in centre to Start of chain punch
So this is used when you have your wrist turned over and yes it can be used for a grab. By bringing the elbow in you gain back control. Punching at the same time means that hopefully they will let go. But if they are still holding on, your arm is in a strong position to be able to punch which will normally break any hold. So when grabbed you bring the elbow in and punch with the other hand.

Please explain the more simpler biu jee version you were talking about.

[LoneTiger108]

:D you haven't got a clue. Your so busy with having so much in YOUR vt its left you thinking anyone with less is narrow minded :D

VT is simple and effective , no flag waving or 'rings of death' added...

did you ever wonder 'why' your exploring the SLT with knives ? :D I would venture a guess that it isnt because you understand the form at all, but the opposite. ;)

Nice to have the mud slinging mentality back again! :mad: Shows so much about your character, yet again, and the fact that because you believe it's all so simple everybody else should fall in line with your narrow views. If what I generally see out there today is the result of Wing Chun being 'simple', then I think it's time for change. Don't you?

FWIW I have never claimed to have 'so much', on the contrary, I have nothing in comparison to my elders. :rolleyes: But I would guess I have a little more than you. :D

You are actually suggesting that my Sifu doesn't understand his SLT, as it was he who passed the idea of training the form with the knives, and rings, and pole. And these insults coming from someone that, I can guarantee, has had no exposure to the Lee Shing family, I take that quite personally.

All jokes and snide marks aside, I haven't got the time to talk with such heediots today :rolleyes:

[k gledhill]

Nice to have the mud slinging mentality back again! :mad: Shows so much about your character, yet again, and the fact that because you believe it's all so simple everybody else should fall in line with your narrow views. If what I generally see out there today is the result of Wing Chun being 'simple', then I think it's time for change. Don't you?

FWIW I have never claimed to have 'so much', on the contrary, I have nothing in comparison to my elders. :rolleyes: But I would guess I have a little more than you. :D

You are actually suggesting that my Sifu doesn't understand his SLT, as it was he who passed the idea of training the form with the knives, and rings, and pole. And these insults coming from someone that, I can guarantee, has had no exposure to the Lee Shing family, I take that quite personally.

All jokes and snide marks aside, I haven't got the time to talk with such heediots today :rolleyes:

I have come across the L Shing lineage....Austin Goh for starters....and a student of his who came and showed me a certificate from A Goh.....he trianed with us when I was running the NYC branch for my old Sifu V Kan....

[Graham H]

A great example of what I was saying to Kevin. A very narrow minded view of what YOU believe WCK to be, or what you think a 'sau' is.




:D:D:D:D:D Ok you win. Good luck in the future!!!

GH

[k gledhill]

Hi kev,
I like the snide remarks about washing hands.
Still funny considering or "simple" idea was that you use biu jee when grabbed.
Lets break it down,
*THE FIRST PART OF THE MOVEMENT
The simple idea of learning to turn your wrist by using your elbow. Picture after doing a finger strike you bring your elbow back in. This is the same movement. So when your elbow is grabbed you use your elbow (making it massivly stronger then just turning the wrist) the bring your arm into a fighting position you can then use your waist and facing to choose what you want to do next.
*X WRISTS PART OF THE MOVEMENT
This teaches cycling of the hands like you would with any strike be that the punch or finger strike. I normally tell people to imagine you are striking a bucket of sand infront of you with your fingers. Always over the top even when striking low. This is normally the part when they say you hit the arm grabbing you and they let go. We don't teach this as any one who has tried this with someone bigger it just doesn't work
*Last section from arm down and hand in centre to Start of chain punch
So this is used when you have your wrist turned over and yes it can be used for a grab. By bringing the elbow in you gain back control. Punching at the same time means that hopefully they will let go. But if they are still holding on, your arm is in a strong position to be able to punch which will normally break any hold. So when grabbed you bring the elbow in and punch with the other hand.

Please explain the more simpler biu jee version you were talking about.

your trying to make an 'application' for the SLT action....its part of the development of attacking along the centerline mindlessly....not 'what to do if your grabbed'...we deal with problems in BG, like how to regain facing, regain our striking hands ,grabbed, to name a few.

the raising and lowering elbow in BG is used to remove grabs to our wrists, not an elbow strike. The harder they grab the more it hurts them. i have the strongest guys grab both wrists and pin me against a wall...they cant stop me freeing my hand/s.

I can do this wrist release to the strongest guy with , wait for it................................................ ......................................

one hand

crazy huh I only need one hand to do this , while your trying to use 2 to fight one hand grabbing your wrist, snort, chortle :o:D:D:D just teasing mate .

Philipp bayer explained to me that only a fool would use this thinking...adding its not a skill to develop , that you fight one guys grip/arm with TWO of yours ....iow you stopped attacking him to do washing hand wrist grab removal, application 36 of the SLT :D not.

BTW it is a good thing to train due to the high % of guys who will grab a leading man sao as they fight you...I had this a lot in bar/street fights. Sometimes I let them grab my wrists so they couldnt hit me , hah ! they think because they grab your wrists they are in control.


its not a finger strike/wrist release combo ...its about making another attacking position with wu.

[k gledhill]

You're wrong mate.

The reason the hand is chambered is because the stretch provides a way to train the punch. It also is chambered because it helps keep the body in alignment.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with holding a knife.

Just train SLT, stop trying to find different ways to train it and just train it as it is.


good post ;) saying it like it is , isn't easy. Many sifu try to be 'nice' and let you think you can do 8 different 'applications' with any SLT action :D it takes a certain 'fortitude' and resolve to truth, to tell a student NO :D its JUST THIS SIMPLE IDEA...from beginning to end .

[Graham H]

good post ;) saying it like it is , isn't easy. Many sifu try to be 'nice' and let you think you can do 8 different 'applications' with any SLT action :D it takes a certain 'fortitude' and resolve to truth, to tell a student NO :D its JUST THIS SIMPLE IDEA...from beginning to end .

Amen!!!! :)

[LoneTiger108]

... it takes a certain 'fortitude' and resolve to truth, to tell a student NO :D its JUST THIS SIMPLE IDEA...from beginning to end .

Interesting. As this IS what I've been saying to you from the beginning dude :confused:


I have come across the L Shing lineage....Austin Goh for starters....and a student of his who came and showed me a certificate from A Goh.....he trianed with us when I was running the NYC branch for my old Sifu V Kan....

Okay. 2 things. One; I can now kind of see where your mindset is given the background you claim here, and two; Meeting a 'certified' student of my Uncles in NYC says nothing of YOUR experience of this family.

Are you aware that Austin is the 'youngest' Sifu teaching for Lee Shing? This means he has elders who may not have taught commercially like he did back in the seventies, like my Sifu. Not to take anything away from his promotions over the years, but I was not taught the same stuff he was. Different time, generation and purpose imho.

There were just as many differences from Sifu to Sifu in the Lee Shing family than there is in WSL family as he taught everybody as individuals. The fact that we only have 3 public 'Masters' as such who were taught directly from Lee Shing (Austin Goh, Joe Lee and Joseph Man) suggests that this family is still very unknown. The biggest 'foreign' Sifu is probably Jurg Zeigler, so I would say you still know nothing about us, or me. :rolleyes:

To take away a positive from this, consider yourself no different from any other Wing Chun Sifu who is teaching what they were taught and disagree with any ideas that originate from a source a little older than your own! :p

What I'm saying is there are still very very few people in the World with any real knowledge about Lee Shing, what he knew or intended for his students so you're all in the same boat. I actually only started posting here a few years ago to hopefully help to share more detailed information about him and what he left behind.

Actually, go and ask your old Sifu Kan about Lee Shing as I can guarantee he has a few old stories. :D

[Graham H]

........ so I would say you still know nothing about us, or me. :rolleyes:



I hope we can keep it that way!!!! :D:D:D:D:p

[LoneTiger108]

I hope we can keep it that way!!!! :D:D:D:D:p

I can help make your wish come true :rolleyes::D

Now if anyone else has anything to contribute to the thread I am still very interested, as always, to hear your views on practising Siu Lim Tao with the knives.

Who can do it? Who else couldn't care less?! Who wants to try?

[Graham H]

I tried tonight just so I could take part in this thread on a positive note and low and behold I've chopped my arms off at the elbow. Tut tut tut!!! That will teach me to not listen to any kung fu masters again!!:confused::rolleyes::o:D

[bennyvt]

Are you thinking I am saying hit the hand that grabs you.
Ill make this plain and simple. When grabbed you bring the hand that is being grabbed into centre by using the elbow and punch with the other hand.
How is the BJ version of this any way near as direct, aggressive, attacking. So you just do the elbow which releases the hold. Great so you are just getting out of the hold not attacking anything. How is punching them in the face less attacking then breaking a hold. Barry says only a fool would stand there trying to break a hold when he could just punch them in the head. The biu jee version is when this can't be done.
Application as I understand it is the way you use something. SLT is a bunch of moves that can be done with stepping, shifting etc. By your definition you should just be able to teach the punch as they are all just the punch. If this was the case they wouldn't have different names.
And it can be a finger strike just like any strike can be anything. I say the finger strike as this gives the student a better idea and stops them doing it like they are trying to hit a imaginary arm off theirs.
I was always taught if you have to go straight to biu jee for your moves you have already screwed up way to much to win. And this is normally done with people that haven't done the basics enough to learn that in VT the basics are the prefferable option.

[tigershorty]

I haven't heard of one but is there a BJD wooden dummy form?

if not, i might be a bit more comfortable saying doing the SNT with the knives seems a bit misguided.

I think I would prefer doing free flow movements with the knives rather than try and make it work for SNT..why not use the knives in CK or BJ...i just don't see it.

Seems like a knife form was made for the knives because the knives teaches certain things and the SNT teaches its concepts. Not that the two don't compliment each other, but if you muddy the concepts of the two, you seem to miss some of the concepts i would think and venture more into technique land. Why not do the SNT with the pole- seems like a bad idea to me.

eh, i dont know.

[Graham H]

Application as I understand it is the way you use something. SLT is a bunch of moves that can be done with stepping, shifting etc.

SLT with stepping, shifting etc is Chum Kiu isn't it???!!!!!!:confused::)

SLT is a training exercise not fighting applications. This idea makes perfect sense. SLT teaches the basic motions and trains the legs. It enables us to train the way of the punch, specifically the elbow. If you add fighting applications to SLT before correcting the errors that we humans have naturally then the error will get bigger and bigger as time goes on.

I used to teach fighting applications in SLT before I was taught a better way of thinking about Ving Tsun. Now I teach SLT with Dahn Chi and nothing else until the students movements are good and the Ving Tsun idea is starting to grow then it is followed by Chum Kiu. This way the students movement of the upper body is already good and the stance is getting stronger. Then its time to train the way of punching. Until Chum Kiu the student will not understand Ving Tsun. SLT is very abstract. Its a precursor to Chum Kiu and the forms are taught quite close together.
As soon as you start adding fighting applications to SLT or doing silly thing like perform it with blades in your hands, you are defeating the whole idea of it.....The Young Idea.......Siu Lim Tau.

GH

[k gledhill]

benny the point is that yes YOU SHOULD just punch a guy if he grabs/tries to grab , your wrist :D:D bravo !:D

iow WHY make tut sao a low 'wrist grab removal' application or bil sao to eyes :D, when its teaching an abstract way to alternate arms along the centerline to be able to make new attacking /punches with wu xing the centerline as it goes out and comes back. After the tut sao, aka 'washing hands' we do the alternating punch in the same way , alternating and threading the centerline.

The SLT STARTS with this idea x the line , CK starts with x the line , BJ too. WE learn the relationship of elbows wrists along the centerline to be able to fight using the 'little idea' as we intercept along the line , mindlessly.

We repeat the tutsao action during the CK form too...i.e. after the fak sao to the side of the body we bring the 'elbow' back to the centerline , place the wu sao acroos the elbow joint of that hand we just brought to the centerline and strike out ....making the wu sao sweep the centerline as the wrist x the line slightly...CK is recovering the punch ability...not just bong /wu attacks.

The problem lies in the arms being pointed downwards when doing tutsao rather than forwards like a strike. We do this for keeping the elbows from raising up and down at a beginner level....its not so we aim low when using the idea to fight.

[bennyvt]

You don't understand. The finger strike is not an application. Its a way of thinking so it doesn't turn into the normal wrist movement. It should look just like any strike. Bringing the elbow in means you have control of them, so they dont just throw you around while you are trying to punch them. When they are heaps bigger you can't reach their face so you then can the the BJ elbow. This as I have said is one of the other ways of using this technique. SLT teaches moves with more wide range of uses, CK has less, BJ etc. more specialised not better.
Graham.
I had used VT several times befoe learning dan chi let alone CK. We teach slower, based on time doing the technique and the right standard. CK has different moves that are more narrow in their application, a normal tan sao can do heaps, the tan in CK (after the elbow popping thing) has less uses but it better for the specific range it is used then the normal tan sao. The techniques evolved to allow more of a mistake by the student. Dont worry man we get SLT right before going onto the other stuff. I would say that it is only abstract if you don't know what the "uses" are for what you are doing. Not just glazing over it to get to the "GOOD STUFF";)

[LoneTiger108]

I haven't heard of one but is there a BJD wooden dummy form?

That depends on what you believe the wooden man to be imo.


Seems like a knife form was made for the knives because the knives teaches certain things and the SNT teaches its concepts. Not that the two don't compliment each other, but if you muddy the concepts of the two, you seem to miss some of the concepts i would think and venture more into technique land. Why not do the SNT with the pole- seems like a bad idea to me.

eh, i dont know.

Truth is, nobody 'knows'! And that includes ME! :D

BUT if you are willing to take on board that there are families of Wing Chun out there now that are only just starting to open their doors after almost 50 years of, what we have seen, one mans idea (Ip Man) then it just makes sense to apporach things with an open mind.


As soon as you start adding fighting applications to SLT or doing silly thing like perform it with blades in your hands, you are defeating the whole idea of it.....The Young Idea.......Siu Lim Tau.

That's your opinion, which I disagree with. ;) Even your misguided translation here shows your mindset. Its Siu Lum that is 'young' (Shaolin!?) Siu Lim/Nim relates to actually thinking.

I'm not against teaching SLT without any applications either, as that is the core of it's understanding. Knowing what each set represents and understanding how to train that idea. Honestly, holding onto the idea that SLT is only trained with dan chisau is a 'beginners' perspective. A GREAT way to learn at the beginning, as this IS what Ip Man promoted. But once you know Dan chisau does your SLT training stop?

I know that my SLT is 'built' different than most, but am I going to go back in time and ask Ip Man why his sons only talk of three sets, when there are six? From what I understand, again, this was to make it simpler to teach beginners!


The SLT STARTS with this idea x the line , CK starts with x the line , BJ too. WE learn the relationship of elbows wrists along the centerline to be able to fight using the 'little idea' as we intercept along the line , mindlessly.

FWIW The x-hands you mention for me is NOT the start of my SLT. It's considered the hoi sik, or opening set, which explains why it's at the beginning of each form. I know this may be even harder for you to take in but I will tell you anyway as I feel you really should consider this.

The x-hands is Ip Mans signature. His LOGO. Yes it helps find the centreline, but there is much more it is linked to.

But this is just what I've been taught. Everybody knows this from a Lee Shing perspective, as he too had his own logo/signature that was 'added' to Ip Mans. And this is how things had been done for a while as far as I know.

[k gledhill]

a 'logo' :D, that explains why your doing slt with razor sharp knives ;) .

The VT centerline fighter ....one hand must always guard the line. Man sao ~ Wu sao.
tut sao is the way to exchange them and not open the line up...not an application, simply how to thread the the imaginary line so you can strike again...and again etc...

Like the 'third-eye' images that require a slight shift in focus to see a clear image from abstract 'parts'...you wont ever accept the abstract image presented by the 3 forms as the 'picture' of the VT fighter.

The forms serve to develop our ability to fight using the 'centerline ' way....slt the basic idea, ck taking the idea to the opponent, bg if we need to recover the 'basic idea'.

dan chi-sao to develop a jum strike against its partner tan strike, each trying to use the others force to develop their ability to maintain alignment as they strike forwards, incorporating the dual energy vectors as they do so.
With a basic introduction to the stance and the structure required to both deliver and receive punching force without losing the facing, ie shoulders turning, too much upper body force leaning forwards, chasing contact of the incoming arm first...all mistakes , weeded out progressively.

IMO many adopt an approach of too much feeling and chasing response to the tan sao strike in dan chi-sao because it is easier and doesnt require the 'glutes' to work or the hips to stay forwards in maximal stance positions.
OR and a big or...they dont have a counterstrike idea in the drill ..iow its a feel and receive with a jut and then strike ...no simultaneous idea or development of 2 vt striking punches required to make a functional centerline assault.

Like fighting one handed, so the student always requires the other hand to perform a controlling, clinching action, simply because the OTHER strike aka JUM sao was never introduced ....this leads to over trapping and hand chasing because you have NOT learned to use alternating strikes EACH with inbuilt centerline defensive capabilities...

if your thinking "what did he say? " then your probably only using one hand to strike and the other to block in a constant manner. relying on 'egg-beater' punches as just that...fast hands on an A- B thinking strategy. :o

[shawchemical]

SLT with stepping, shifting etc is Chum Kiu isn't it???!!!!!!:confused::)

SLT is a training exercise not fighting applications. This idea makes perfect sense. SLT teaches the basic motions and trains the legs. It enables us to train the way of the punch, specifically the elbow. If you add fighting applications to SLT before correcting the errors that we humans have naturally then the error will get bigger and bigger as time goes on.

I used to teach fighting applications in SLT before I was taught a better way of thinking about Ving Tsun. Now I teach SLT with Dahn Chi and nothing else until the students movements are good and the Ving Tsun idea is starting to grow then it is followed by Chum Kiu. This way the students movement of the upper body is already good and the stance is getting stronger. Then its time to train the way of punching. Until Chum Kiu the student will not understand Ving Tsun. SLT is very abstract. Its a precursor to Chum Kiu and the forms are taught quite close together.
As soon as you start adding fighting applications to SLT or doing silly thing like perform it with blades in your hands, you are defeating the whole idea of it.....The Young Idea.......Siu Lim Tau.

GH

I disagree. SLT is for fighting, but it relies on the man you are fighting being in front of you. SLT is not abstract at all in my view. It is direct, simple and efficient. It is the core of VTK, and using the fighting applications which are included is essential for the development of those ideas in chum kiu. The ideas are incomplete in SLT, but to imply that there are no applications of these techniques is incredibly naive. They take an optimistic view of a fight, that nothing goes seriously wrong, and you don't have to recover, ideas which are expanded upon to less ideal scenarios in chum kiu.

[k gledhill]

I disagree. SLT is for fighting, but it relies on the man you are fighting being in front of you. SLT is not abstract at all in my view. It is direct, simple and efficient. It is the core of VTK, and using the fighting applications which are included is essential for the development of those ideas in chum kiu. The ideas are incomplete in SLT, but to imply that there are no applications of these techniques is incredibly naive. They take an optimistic view of a fight, that nothing goes seriously wrong, and you don't have to recover, ideas which are expanded upon to less ideal scenarios in chum kiu.

you dont know what your talking about. :o calling people naive with your shallow understanding of VT is comical...:D AND YOUR A BUFOON. ;)

[shawchemical]

you dont know what your talking about. :o calling people naive with your shallow understanding of VT is comical...:D AND YOUR A BUFOON. ;)

YOU'RE. Not 'your' in the context in which you use them.

You're right, I am a perpetual student. However, at least that means that my head is not so far up my arse that I can't smell the **** that you constantly talk.

Even the wise man can behave like a fool if he begins to think he has no more to learn.

Make of that what you will. Even terrence shows more class than you, and he's no better than a petulant teenager.

[LoneTiger108]

a 'logo' :D, that explains why your doing slt with razor sharp knives ;) .

The VT centerline fighter ....one hand must always guard the line. Man sao ~ Wu sao...

:rolleyes: YAWN!

The logo explains nothing other than the fact that it is a logo. :D I'm getting quite bored now of the constant droning on about everything else to be honest. The thread is about the knives in SLT, so if you have no experience of that why don't you just share what experience you do have WITH the knives?

[k gledhill]

YOU'RE. Not 'your' in the context in which you use them.

You're right, I am a perpetual student. However, at least that means that my head is not so far up my arse that I can't smell the **** that you constantly talk.

Even the wise man can behave like a fool if he begins to think he has no more to learn.

Make of that what you will. Even terrence shows more class than you, and he's no better than a petulant teenager.

there you go again with the personal attacks...is it me or do you forget to answer vt questions and go for the forum response when asked to explain something related to vt technically.

Im trying to improve my punctuation and use of grammar , thanks a hole ;)

..Caring about matters of language is unfortunately generally associated with small-minded people...

[k gledhill]

:rolleyes: YAWN!

The logo explains nothing other than the fact that it is a logo. :D I'm getting quite bored now of the constant droning on about everything else to be honest. The thread is about the knives in SLT, so if you have no experience of that why don't you just share what experience you do have WITH the knives?

the thread is about your lack of understanding VT ...trying to yawn me off wont change that ;)

funny, but the more you let on about your understanding of SLT the better....its a logo, you do it with knives too..what else ? juggling ? how many applications do YOU have ?

[LoneTiger108]

YAWN! :eek: