David Ross Comment on Self-Defense

[HumbleWCGuy]

Ross makes an interesting comment about people who criticize Sand Da and MMA for not having self-defense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzxJZ0LfBW4

I think that people accept the idea that MMA and San Da work in all situation and that people can defend themselves with it in the streets. The criticism is that it can require a heavier energy expenditure than necessary to achieve the goal.

A good analogy of using full-on kickboxing to defeat a street fighter is treating a ho like a housewife. I get what I want in the end either way, but one is a bunch of unnecessary effort.

[Dragonzbane76]

The criticism is that it can require a heavier energy expenditure than necessary to achieve the goal.

in a self defense situation would you not be concerned with "getting the job" done? I would rather over do than under because in the end it's my life in a self defense sit. and I will put it all on the line to keep it.

[HumbleWCGuy]

in a self defense situation would you not be concerned with "getting the job" done? I would rather over do than under because in the end it's my life in a self defense sit. and I will put it all on the line to keep it.

The criticism is adding more effort towards the same end not the end results changing.

[lkfmdc]

There is some truly brilliant research on adrenaline response and apparent conditioning, functional strenght etc (Taai Gihk lurking about?)

I suggest you read it, really. Because when you understand that in a "real situation" you are going to need to be as conditioned, strong, forceful, whatever word you want to use to get the job done, well

And remember, for "real" if you don't get the job done, you aren't just going to be upset you lost a match

eh, and also, again, the more resistance and alive training you do the better your adrenaline response will be

just saying

[HumbleWCGuy]

There is some truly brilliant research on adrenaline response and apparent conditioning, functional strenght etc (Taai Gihk lurking about?)

I suggest you read it, really. Because when you understand that in a "real situation" you are going to need to be as conditioned, strong, forceful, whatever word you want to use to get the job done, well

And remember, for "real" if you don't get the job done, you aren't just going to be upset you lost a match

eh, and also, again, the more resistance and alive training you do the better your adrenaline response will be

just saying

My point has nothing to do with training method. I am not opposed to conditioning, functional strength, mma, kickboxing, cross-training, nor San Da. I am only making the point that we kickboxers and mma-ist don't always package nice efficient ways of dealing with street fighters thus expending too much energy to get a job done or as I said, "Treating a ho like a housewife."

[mooyingmantis]

It sounds like Ross has a good program that he offers.

[HumbleWCGuy]

It sounds like Ross has a good program that he offers.

He does. It is only a minor point that I am making. We reality fighters spend a lot of time preparing for the best competition instead of for the competition that we probably got into martial arts to stop in the first place. Hence, we might need 6 moves to defeat a street fighter instead of 2 because we don't capitalize on his inherent flaws. IMO, if I encounter a streetfighter and I wind up assuming a stance, putting my hands up, and throwing a couple of jabs then I have messed up.

[YouKnowWho]

The criticism is adding more effort towards the same end not the end results changing.

A tiger will fight a rabbit the same way as to fight against a lion. The reason is simple. That tiger doesn't know any other way. Is that bad? I don't think so.

Of course you only need to be just a little bit better than your opponent and not showing off too much. Like my friend used to say that his opponent wasn't good enough for him to pull out his best moves yet. But how many people can reach to that level?

[Dragonzbane76]

the simplest answers are usually the best. Like someone stated above I would rather train against someone resistant and under pressure than to train for the what ifs and I would do this type of thing. Real fights are not carbon copies of what your 2 step sparring or forms give you. getting complex movements is just crap, train the simple ones thousands of times and get the muscle memory instant, that is what matters.

[Frost]

Ross makes an interesting comment about people who criticize Sand Da and MMA for not having self-defense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzxJZ0LfBW4

I think that people accept the idea that MMA and San Da work in all situation and that people can defend themselves with it in the streets. The criticism is that it can require a heavier energy expenditure than necessary to achieve the goal.

A good analogy of using full-on kickboxing to defeat a street fighter is treating a ho like a housewife. I get what I want in the end either way, but one is a bunch of unnecessary effort.

So what could you use to defeat him that would require less energy?confused:

I am very confused and maybe I don’t understand the point you are making but in MMA and grappling I am trained to find my opponents weaknesses and take him out, against a skilled BJJ guy that might take 5 minutes, against a newbie he will be tapping in seconds, against a good Thai guy I might need to throw faints, set combinations up, but against a new guy my simple 1, 2 might find a home and job done. We don’t look to make fights complicated we look to finish them quickly, but if the other guys good then things get complicated all by themselves

[rogue]

In my opinion a street fight and self defense aren't really the same thing, though they do over lap. But that's just the way I look at things.

[Yum Cha]

In my opinion a street fight and self defense aren't really the same thing, though they do over lap. But that's just the way I look at things.

This takes me back to the thread we had earlier this year, where most people agreed that their streetfights had been way easier than their competition fights, for the most part.

Guns, knives and home invasions excepted....

But, its all about the stakes....

[HumbleWCGuy]

So what could you use to defeat him that would require less energy?confused:

I am very confused and maybe I don’t understand the point you are making but in MMA and grappling I am trained to find my opponents weaknesses and take him out, against a skilled BJJ guy that might take 5 minutes, against a newbie he will be tapping in seconds, against a good Thai guy I might need to throw faints, set combinations up, but against a new guy my simple 1, 2 might find a home and job done. We don’t look to make fights complicated we look to finish them quickly, but if the other guys good then things get complicated all by themselves

Just on a very basic level, as I said above, getting if you square up on someone like you are in a ring you have committed a huge mistake in a street fight. IMO, as soon as you get in a stance/ on guard you let your opponent know that you know something and put yourself at greater risk to get stabbed or shot. Why would you let your opponent know that you are coming? This is a difference between a ring fight and a street fight. In the ring I have to display to the referee, judges, and on some level my opponent that I understand why I am there and that I am ready to defend myself. This is not the case in a street fight.

If I never got into a stance and punched someone on the street I am much better off than squaring up. That would be self-defense 101 versus ring 101 which says to keep my hands up and appear to be making an intelligent attempt to defend myself.

Beyond that, it is doing things like putting on eye protection and practicing a bil jee, role-playing various street-fighting scenarios. Discuss how to use the environment. Reminding people to look for weapons in the environment. Discuss how to hit people when your hands aren't taped.

Does your gym practice 2-1, 3-1, and so on? Sure you can kickbox your way out of all of that, but it might be better to consider some of these situations and what are some ways to get out of them without squaring up to each guy and fighting them one one one.

[HumbleWCGuy]

A tiger will fight a rabbit the same way as to fight against a lion. The reason is simple. That tiger doesn't know any other way. Is that bad? I don't think so.

Of course you only need to be just a little bit better than your opponent and not showing off too much. Like my friend used to say that his opponent wasn't good enough for him to pull out his best moves yet. But how many people can reach to that level?

Fighters tend to be true to their character. A boxer remains a boxer, a slugger remains a slugger, a grappler will still grapple. However, grenerally speaking, if a fighter goes out and makes no adjustments in a fighting situation, it shows a lack of polish.

[Frost]

Just on a very basic level, as I said above, getting if you square up on someone like you are in a ring you have committed a huge mistake in a street fight. IMO, as soon as you get in a stance/ on guard you let your opponent know that you know something and put yourself at greater risk to get stabbed or shot. Why would you let your opponent know that you are coming? This is a difference between a ring fight and a street fight. In the ring I have to display to the referee, judges, and on some level my opponent that I understand why I am there and that I am ready to defend myself. This is not the case in a street fight.

If I never got into a stance and punched someone on the street I am much better off than squaring up. That would be self-defense 101 versus ring 101 which says to keep my hands up and appear to be making an intelligent attempt to defend myself.

Beyond that, it is doing things like putting on eye protection and practicing a bil jee, role-playing various street-fighting scenarios. Discuss how to use the environment. Reminding people to look for weapons in the environment. Discuss how to hit people when your hands aren't taped.

Does your gym practice 2-1, 3-1, and so on? Sure you can kickbox your way out of all of that, but it might be better to consider some of these situations and what are some ways to get out of them without squaring up to each guy and fighting them one one one.

yep my MMA coach is a student and friend of geoff thompson and the coach at the other gym i train at does security for a few people so we have trained the fence, done some self defence and 2 on 1, 3 on 1, its a small part of our training but it is done on occasion. personally in a mulitpul situation if i cant blast a hole i want a shield (and its back to standing
grappling for me!)

do people really train finger strikes to the eyes,? not being funny but the risk reward to me is too great, if you hit bone or miss and break your fingers then what?

For self defence if you want something more serious than the normal fist id go with the PE fist, harder less prone to injury and can still be used to attack the eyes etc

MMA guys use the enviroment all the time in the cage or the ring, its not too much of an extension for them to use the wall, table floor etx and doesnt take too much time out of normal training to practise

[HumbleWCGuy]

yep my MMA coach is a student and friend of geoff thompson and the coach at the other gym i train at does security for a few people so we have trained the fence, done some self defence and 2 on 1, 3 on 1, its a small part of our training but it is done on occasion. personally in a mulitpul situation if i cant blast a hole i want a shield (and its back to standing
grappling for me!)

That sort of training isn't really the norm. it is pretty hit and miss at an mma IMO.


do people really train finger strikes to the eyes,? not being funny but the risk reward to me is too great, if you hit bone or miss and break your fingers then what?


All the time. JKDers love it. I have never seen any one get hurt.


For self defence if you want something more serious than the normal fist id go with the PE fist, harder less prone to injury and can still be used to attack the eyes etc


I don't know what a PE fist is, But I don't think that the idea is to have some thing "more serious" as much as it is to make extra sure that people are hitting correctly and using palm strikes when necessary.




MMA guys use the enviroment all the time in the cage or the ring, its not too much of an extension for them to use the wall, table floor etx and doesnt take too much time out of normal training to practise

Sure but the ring is only one environment with a different set of rules than the street so you have to explore other environments with a different mindset.

[Frost]

That sort of training isn't really the norm. it is pretty hit and miss at an mma IMO. .

Probably so but alot of MMA guys also bounce and have an understanding about street fighting even if they dont get it from class....what they do develop is (if they stick around or compete) is a will to destroy the other guy and a set of skills that enable them to do this...is it the best way to train for the street probably not but it allows you to develop skills that you can use under pressure and which you know will put the other guy down



All the time. JKDers love it. I have never seen any one get hurt. .

But do they spar and actually use it at full speed and full intent? i have had my finers dislocted a few times and wouldnt like to hit anything hard with them, the eyes are too small a target and too easy to miss (just my opinion)



I don't know what a PE fist is, But I don't think that the idea is to have some thing "more serious" as much as it is to make extra sure that people are hitting correctly and using palm strikes when necessary. .

Pheonix eye fist, seen in bak mei, SPM and other Hakka arts, Ronin put up a video of in in the southern forum .....you dont think finger strikes to the eyes are more deadly than punches?



Sure but the ring is only one environment with a different set of rules than the street so you have to explore other environments with a different mindset.

I dont actually think the rules/enviroment matter that much, i think its the ability and willingness to win and do bodily harm that really matters.

Scariest thing i ever saw was a bunch of rugby players destroying some bouncers in a fight (some of the bouncers were left crippled for life) the rugby lads had had no formal training but were used to contact, had mean streaks and were used to doing what ever it takes to win

[RenDaHai]

An old Chinese man once told me that during the Japanese occupation of China he was just 8 years old. At 8 years old he killed a japanese soldier by dropping a rock on his head.

The point of me saying this is that will power is the real issue here. If you will to do something it can be done. So I don't think the style of combat is really important, it is your mental ability to cope with the situation.

Since mma puts you in a difficult situation of competition with real pain, I think it is a good method of preparing the mind for actual combat. In the end you will probably never use the exact techniques you've trained anyway, you'll just improvise.

So Techniques in mma may be competition based rather than reality, but the mental training is probably more effective than most Ma.

[RenDaHai]

I dont actually think the rules/enviroment matter that much, i think its the ability and willingness to win and do bodily harm that really matters.

Scariest thing i ever saw was a bunch of rugby players destroying some bouncers in a fight (some of the bouncers were left crippled for life) the rugby lads had had no formal training but were used to contact, had mean streaks and were used to doing what ever it takes to win

Hit the nail on the head. Agreed.

[Frost]

An old Chinese man once told me that during the Japanese occupation of China he was just 8 years old. At 8 years old he killed a japanese soldier by dropping a rock on his head.

The point of me saying this is that will power is the real issue here. If you will to do something it can be done. So I don't think the style of combat is really important, it is your mental ability to cope with the situation.

Since mma puts you in a difficult situation of competition with real pain, I think it is a good method of preparing the mind for actual combat. In the end you will probably never use the exact techniques you've trained anyway, you'll just improvise.

So Techniques in mma may be competition based rather than reality, but the mental training is probably more effective than most Ma.

ditto i agree and think we wrote the same thing from different perspectives

[doug maverick]

i remember me and my friends, would just draw a circle in the backyard and slug it out for two minutes no interruption(if you ever done a two minute round you no how exhausting that could be) and try to push ourselves to go beyond the standard punch and kick routines, but to use what we were being taught. best way to find out what works or doesnt work, or what needs to be adjusted. one of the things i learned from my xing yi teacher was "mutation" as he call it, how to change and adjust your technique to the situation. and learning how to combine or "Link" the various fist, like combination in boxing.just to give a little example, enemy attacks, you block using the rise motion of pi(splitting) chuan, then break his defense using the fall overturn motion followed by beng(crushing). this is just an example. but thats what i mean you have to learn to change your tactics and how to adjust your movements, everything doesnt have to be done like it is in a form or in a given application. i think standardize applications it what hurts most people and thats mostly due to the teacher, who doesnt explain to his students that this app is not set in stone.

another thing we did was something we called " the warriors field" where one individual would stand in the circle and defend his self against the rest of us for as long as he can. idea for this was to help you think under pressure in a situation where you had multiple attack. the idea wasnt to beat everybody up(considering there was about 15 of us that was an impossibility, although it did happen once, my friend tim just started hitting everyone in the nuts and we dropped like flies, and thus from then on he was known as the "sackinator") it was just to help you remember what you know in any given situation. many a blood stained night training with my friends....im surprised we all grew up so adjusted.lol

[HumbleWCGuy]

Probably so but alot of MMA guys also bounce and have an understanding about street fighting even if they dont get it from class....what they do develop is (if they stick around or compete) is a will to destroy the other guy and a set of skills that enable them to do this...is it the best way to train for the street probably not but it allows you to develop skills that you can use under pressure and which you know will put the other guy down


They should get it from class is my point. Leaning that you should have been inspecting a guy for a weapon as the conflict escalates is a bad thing to learn after you have been stabbed several times.



But do they spar and actually use it at full speed and full intent? i have had my finers dislocted a few times and wouldnt like to hit anything hard with them, the eyes are too small a target and too easy to miss (just my opinion)

They use face shields. If you hold you bil jee correctly you won't hurt your hand. the correct way to hold a bil jee is so that the fingers curl down slightly so that they collapse into a fist if they hit anything too solid. Some prefer a modified tiger claw as well.


If you land a solid bill jee on a face shield it really upsets the person being hit because of the added reach that the bil jee brings along with the face shield. I think that it actually balances out and gives a decently real appraisal of how to use the bil jee in a real situation.


Pheonix eye fist, seen in bak mei, SPM and other Hakka arts, Ronin put up a video of in in the southern forum .....you dont think finger strikes to the eyes are more deadly than punches?


I didn't understand your abbreviation. Of course I believe that small hand techniques work, hence the talk of the Bil Jee. It just wasn't the focus the specific point that I was making. In that piece of text that you initially responded to, I was mostly discussing doing things to avoid hurting one's self like not hitting with the second knuckles which is a bad habit that

Could you direct me to SJ's video?



I dont actually think the rules/enviroment matter that much, i think its the ability and willingness to win and do bodily harm that really matters.

On some level I agree, but all things being equal having an understanding of your environment and the dynamics of street fighting give one an edge.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I think that the thing that everyone needs to get away from thinking is that this is a conversation about mma versus TMA. This is a criticism of mma in a vacuum.

If we were to sit around and think about things that mma could do better, I find it hard to argue that they/we could do a better job of making sure that people can handle street situations more efficiently.

[TenTigers]

when we do an eye strike, the fingers are slightly bent, not locked out, so there is no danger if you hit bone. You don't need to be able to thrust through boards or watermelons to squish an eyeball.

[bawang]

The criticism is that it can require a heavier energy expenditure than necessary to achieve the goal.


not if u perk juggernaut and get 50% more energy. altho stopping power negates it. and always carry energy packs wit u. dont rely on random powerups
some prefer stim paks but the downside is u lose 10 hp so always bring a healer

but i argue that to neither perchance to the comsumption of leafy green vegetables which therefore increases the effeciency and energy output of your emdoplasmic reticulum and ribosomes, encouraging ribosome biogenesis. prostate anus balls

[Dragonzbane76]

stack stam. and intellect for max. boost. I have a sword with +15 to F'U-up so if we need that I can provide.

[bawang]

cast nanoskill buff to execute nanoprogram: bong sao expertise. target has drastically improved bong sao, which can be used to stop takedowns and deadly hook punches.

tier 1 perk bong sao mastery: ground fighting no longer has any effect on you.

[TenTigers]

not if u perk juggernaut and get 50% more energy. altho stopping power negates it. and always carry energy packs wit u. dont rely on random powerups
some prefer stim paks but the downside is u lose 10 hp so always bring a healer

but i argue that to neither perchance to the comsumption of leafy green vegetables which therefore increases the effeciency and energy output of your emdoplasmic reticulum and ribosomes, encouraging ribosome biogenesis. prostate anus balls

sometimes I don't understand a thing he is saying.
But I think I got the last part....

[David Jamieson]

cast nanoskill buff to execute nanoprogram: bong sao expertise. target has drastically improved bong sao, which can be used to stop takedowns and deadly hook punches.

tier 1 perk bong sao mastery: ground fighting no longer has any effect on you.

bong sao has no effect on bearded hook step, so the entire art is negated by a single takedown.

bad news!

[Frost]

I think that the thing that everyone needs to get away from thinking is that this is a conversation about mma versus TMA. This is a criticism of mma in a vacuum.

If we were to sit around and think about things that mma could do better, I find it hard to argue that they/we could do a better job of making sure that people can handle street situations more efficiently.

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=57757

link to ronins thread on PE fist.

I think the main problem with this is that most people who train MMA arent doing it primarily for self defence reasons, and those that are DO do the necessary training to make it effective on the street (they role with knifes, train against multipul opponents etc) but the vaste majority arent that interested in self defence.

[Frost]

when we do an eye strike, the fingers are slightly bent, not locked out, so there is no danger if you hit bone. You don't need to be able to thrust through boards or watermelons to squish an eyeball.

nope but if you miss the eye ball you are going to hit something hard and there is a danger of hurting your hand, and personally i would rather hit his face with my fist

[SoCo KungFu]

I've yet to see a kung fu school that practiced the proper way to get throw through a table, hit with a bottle or defend a curb stomp....just sayin....

[SoCo KungFu]

prostate anus balls

You pose a convincing argument. vulva ovum fundus

[YouKnowWho]

do people really train finger strikes to the eyes?
An open hand slide across the eyes will be better than finger poke into the eyes.

- 1st, you don't have your opponent's eye balls on your finger tips (It's hard to prove you are innocent in court).
- 2nd, you have 5 fingers on 2 eyes (5 x 2 = 10). The odd that any of your fingers that can get into either eye is much greater.
- 3rd, it's just a hook punch (without a fist) across your opponent's face. Nothing fancy about that.

[rogue]

nope but if you miss the eye ball you are going to hit something hard and there is a danger of hurting your hand, and personally i would rather hit his face with my fist

Hitting anything hard with any part of the hand will always have risk with it. Personally I try not to hit the head with a bare fist. Eye jabs are no big deal and just another technique for you tool box. They work when they land right, sometimes work when you miss and the other guy flinches and other times they just fail. Just like a lot of techniques.

[SevenStar]

Just on a very basic level, as I said above, getting if you square up on someone like you are in a ring you have committed a huge mistake in a street fight. IMO, as soon as you get in a stance/ on guard you let your opponent know that you know something and put yourself at greater risk to get stabbed or shot. Why would you let your opponent know that you are coming? This is a difference between a ring fight and a street fight. In the ring I have to display to the referee, judges, and on some level my opponent that I understand why I am there and that I am ready to defend myself. This is not the case in a street fight.

I wouldn't assume we would drop into a thai fighting stance any more than I would assume you would drop into a low 60 /40. I'm not sure why you would even say that...


If I never got into a stance and punched someone on the street I am much better off than squaring up. That would be self-defense 101 versus ring 101 which says to keep my hands up and appear to be making an intelligent attempt to defend myself.

LOL, your hands should be up - after the fight starts. If you are so close to me and have me so concerned that a you will strike, then I will likely strike pre empively anyway - why am I waiting on him to swing at me?


Beyond that, it is doing things like putting on eye protection and practicing a bil jee, role-playing various street-fighting scenarios. Discuss how to use the environment. Reminding people to look for weapons in the environment. Discuss how to hit people when your hands aren't taped.

I don't punch a bag with taped hands. I rarely use gloves. When training for a fight, you should do theses things so you are used to the feel, but beyond that, I don't do it. An MMA guy knows how to use the environment just as well as any. due to being in a cage, they are used to fighting in a confined space, know how to keep you in the area they want you, etc. There is more to environmental training than simply "I see a chair" Once again, you are making assumptions about an mma guys knowledge set.


Does your gym practice 2-1, 3-1, and so on? Sure you can kickbox your way out of all of that, but it might be better to consider some of these situations and what are some ways to get out of them without squaring up to each guy and fighting them one one one.

Many GJJ gyms will touch on this at some point, though it is not a focus of training. Royce actually has a decent grappling self defense book on the market. I got hm to autograph it last time I saw him.

In addition, I wouldn't really agree that TMA has any more advantage in these situations than an mma guy. I bounce in a popular night club. I fight multiple attackers all the time....choked out two guys in a multiple scenario this past saturday. I was able to RNC and he was a barrier between myself and the other guy. Once he passed out, I dropped him and took the next guy. There is no situation I've been in where I haven't been able to use my judo / muay thai / bjj, and that includes being attacked with knives and bottles. I had a gun pulled on me once, but he was like 30 feet away from me. No training in any style would've helped with that.

Please quit assuming that all a sport fighter wants to do is square up with someone. it sounds silly.

[SevenStar]

An old Chinese man once told me that during the Japanese occupation of China he was just 8 years old. At 8 years old he killed a japanese soldier by dropping a rock on his head.

The point of me saying this is that will power is the real issue here. If you will to do something it can be done. So I don't think the style of combat is really important, it is your mental ability to cope with the situation.

Since mma puts you in a difficult situation of competition with real pain, I think it is a good method of preparing the mind for actual combat. In the end you will probably never use the exact techniques you've trained anyway, you'll just improvise.

So Techniques in mma may be competition based rather than reality, but the mental training is probably more effective than most Ma.

agreed. good point.

[SevenStar]

All the time. JKDers love it. I have never seen any one get hurt.


I have taken jkd. at no point did we EVER train a full force eye gouge / finger jab. We would drill the technique, but never full force and contact.

[SevenStar]

I dont actually think the rules/enviroment matter that much, i think its the ability and willingness to win and do bodily harm that really matters.

Scariest thing i ever saw was a bunch of rugby players destroying some bouncers in a fight (some of the bouncers were left crippled for life) the rugby lads had had no formal training but were used to contact, had mean streaks and were used to doing what ever it takes to win

That is what I think some tma guys over look. I have spoken with guys IRL and on this forum who believe that just because they train X style that they have an advantage over any random untrained brute. Somebody with no training, but has intent to kill you is in many cases more dangerous than any trained ma, for the reason that in MA you are trained to care. How many times have you heard someone say they don't like to do this or that or dont fight because they know what they can do to a person. Those big rugby players don't have that inhibition. They just want to hurt you.

I used to work with a guy who trained in taiji, kempo and was a black belt in some other style of karate. He could talk the talk, he had sparred, but when he got into his first real fight, he found out that it was nothing like he thought and that this untrained guy shouldn't have been able to man handle him the way that he did. Notice that I said USED to work with. He quit shortly after that. He was almost killed.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I wouldn't assume we would drop into a thai fighting stance any more than I would assume you would drop into a low 60 /40. I'm not sure why you would even say that...

If the particulars aren't discussed of a given situation in a school then there is no reason to assume that exponents of a particular school will do the correct things in an unfamiliar situation.

For example if a school never spars at all it is a reasonable assumption that students from that school will make a larger number of sparring errors than a school that spars. Assuming that a strictly sport school will do something other than ring fighting when faced with a street situation is an assumption. If your school trains for street situations, that's good, but like I said, it isn't the norm.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I have taken jkd. at no point did we EVER train a full force eye gouge / finger jab. We would drill the technique, but never full force and contact.

Lots do. If you school had the appropriate equipment then I would be surprised if it did not train the technique.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I don't punch a bag with taped hands. I rarely use gloves. When training for a fight, you should do theses things so you are used to the feel, but beyond that, I don't do it. An MMA guy knows how to use the environment just as well as any. due to being in a cage, they are used to fighting in a confined space, know how to keep you in the area they want you, etc. There is more to environmental training than simply "I see a chair" Once again, you are making assumptions about an mma guys knowledge set.



It's more that just seeing a chair and hitting someone with it. It is about understanding the entire situation and knowing when you should go for the chair. It's about being ready for the second or 3rd guy who comes that you didn't initially size up. If you aren't spending time talking about these things with your instructors and dedicating class time to these things then you are probably not as prepared as you would like to believe. You should be going through a short curriculum of things that you need to consider that will include, strategy, techniques, legalities, conflict mediation, and awareness training.

[SevenStar]

If the particulars aren't discussed of a given situation in a school then there is no reason to assume that exponents of a particular school will do the correct things in an unfamiliar situation.

For example if a school never spars at all it is a reasonable assumption that students from that school will make a larger number of sparring errors than a school that spars. Assuming that a strictly sport school will do something other than ring fighting when faced with a street situation is an assumption. If your school trains for street situations, that's good, but like I said, it isn't the norm.

I work with a bunch of mma guys, several of whom don't train where I do. none of them get into fighting stances at work...

[SevenStar]

Lots do. If you school had the appropriate equipment then I would be surprised if it did not train the technique.

show me a clip of any person who takes eye gouges at full force as part of training. I can show you a clip of yuki nakai taking one in an mma match. He is now blind in his right eye, although he did win his fight.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I work with a bunch of mma guys, several of whom don't train where I do. none of them get into fighting stances at work...

As I said, are they learning this though on the job experience, talking with each other, did they pick some things up from a video, a karate class when they were a kid, or did their mma instructors talk with them about it? See my point?

Also, that is just one example of a greater point. It isn't they entire point.

[HumbleWCGuy]

show me a clip of any person who takes eye gouges at full force as part of training. I can show you a clip of yuki nakai taking one in an mma match. He is now blind in his right eye, although he did win his fight.

Apparently you are unaware of the face shield as a training device.

[SoCo KungFu]

Could somebody please tell me at what point of my conversion into MMA I lost the ability to bite, eye gouge or swift kick to nutsack? I mean I still chew my food so my jaws work. And I kicked a dude in the cajones the other day in sparring by accident. I think I could probably do it intentionally as well if I wanted. I can stick a finger in my own eye. I think it would move just as easily into someone else's.

[SevenStar]

Apparently you are unaware of the face shield as a training device.

i'm very aware of it. But as frost started earlier, when you hit hard surfaces at full force with your fingers...

[SevenStar]

Could somebody please tell me at what point of my conversion into MMA I lost the ability to bite, eye gouge or swift kick to nutsack? I mean I still chew my food so my jaws work. And I kicked a dude in the cajones the other day in sparring by accident. I think I could probably do it intentionally as well if I wanted. I can stick a finger in my own eye. I think it would move just as easily into someone else's.

ironically, a grappler can likely pull of an eye gouge easier than a striker can.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Could somebody please tell me at what point of my conversion into MMA I lost the ability to bite, eye gouge or swift kick to nutsack? I mean I still chew my food so my jaws work. And I kicked a dude in the cajones the other day in sparring by accident. I think I could probably do it intentionally as well if I wanted. I can stick a finger in my own eye. I think it would move just as easily into someone else's.

The simple answer is that you haven't but you fall into a mindset when you train mma/ sport fighting. You have to spend some time training these things to bring them back out. It's not that mma lacks the tool kit to fight on the street efficiently. It is just making sure that when you are on the street that you pull out the right set of tools for the job.

[HumbleWCGuy]

i'm very aware of it. But as frost started earlier, when you hit hard surfaces at full force with your fingers...

Incorrect understanding of how to properly construct a bil jee or any eye gouge and apply it. you should have no problem hitting a hard surface.

Edit:
The Bil Jee is thrown in a manner akin to the flicker jab in boxing. Moreover, the bil jee is constructed so that the fingers are curled and collapse when they hit a solid surface. As stated above, if you were taught to throw a bil jee so that it pierces a rmellon, you were shown incorrectly.

[rogue]

In addition, I wouldn't really agree that TMA has any more advantage in these situations than an mma guy. I bounce in a popular night club. I fight multiple attackers all the time....choked out two guys in a multiple scenario this past saturday. I was able to RNC and he was a barrier between myself and the other guy. Once he passed out, I dropped him and took the next guy. There is no situation I've been in where I haven't been able to use my judo / muay thai / bjj, and that includes being attacked with knives and bottles. I had a gun pulled on me once, but he was like 30 feet away from me. No training in any style would've helped with that.

Excellent!

[rogue]

And I kicked a dude in the cajones the other day in sparring by accident. I think I could probably do it intentionally as well if I wanted.

You'd be surprised by how many people can't easily do something to injure another person.

[SoCo KungFu]

You'd be surprised by how many people can't easily do something to injure another person.

True, but you know through MMA, I tend to kick people that don't want to be kicked on a rather frequent basis. I'm not too worried about my leg not working or some other such phenomena.

[SoCo KungFu]

The simple answer is that you haven't but you fall into a mindset when you train mma/ sport fighting. You have to spend some time training these things to bring them back out. It's not that mma lacks the tool kit to fight on the street efficiently. It is just making sure that when you are on the street that you pull out the right set of tools for the job.

That's funny because every fight I ever got into prior to any sort of MA training, I pretty much had no trouble kicking someone in the nuts. I even hit a couple with chairs in school. So what you're saying is that the culmination of street defense focused traditional martial arts are centered around training techniques I have been successfully employing since 2nd grade recess?

[SoCo KungFu]

ironically, a grappler can likely pull of an eye gouge easier than a striker can.

Yep. I know I can control someone in close quarters. The question is can they control me?

[HumbleWCGuy]

That's funny because every fight I ever got into prior to any sort of MA training, I pretty much had no trouble kicking someone in the nuts. I even hit a couple with chairs in school. So what you're saying is that the culmination of street defense focused traditional martial arts are centered around training techniques I have been successfully employing since 2nd grade recess?

This isn't about TMA. Where did I mention TMA except to make the point that this discussion has nothing to do with TMA? People would like it to be about TMA versus MMA /sport so that there can be some debate about alive training versus forms versus blah blah blah. This ain't that debate.

Just for clarification, did you have credible knife defense in second grade? Were you training day in and day out with rules that forebode the use of groin kicks, chairs, or biting? In second grade, did you understand the legalities of when to use a chair? Did you go through some scenarios of how to put a stop to a fight before the opponent even gets going? Is your school running over these scenarios now or do you just figure that you have it because you have been in enough scrapes? Do you have an innate ability to defend against multiple attackers.

[Tringsh]

Ross makes an interesting comment about people who criticize Sand Da and MMA for not having self-defense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzxJZ0LfBW4

I think that people accept the idea that MMA and San Da work in all situation and that people can defend themselves with it in the streets. The criticism is that it can require a heavier energy expenditure than necessary to achieve the goal.

A good analogy of using full-on kickboxing to defeat a street fighter is treating a ho like a housewife. I get what I want in the end either way, but one is a bunch of unnecessary effort.

I don't think it really matters what action is taken to defend yourself as long as you end up in a safer position that you were before you started. Real fights aren't pretty and there are no rules to stop it from getting out of hand you just have to do what you can. :)

[Frost]

This isn't about TMA. Where did I mention TMA except to make the point that this discussion has nothing to do with TMA? People would like it to be about TMA versus MMA /sport so that there can be some debate about alive training versus forms versus blah blah blah. This ain't that debate.

Just for clarification, did you have credible knife defense in second grade? Were you training day in and day out with rules that forebode the use of groin kicks, chairs, or biting? In second grade, did you understand the legalities of when to use a chair? Did you go through some scenarios of how to put a stop to a fight before the opponent even gets going? Is your school running over these scenarios now or do you just figure that you have it because you have been in enough scrapes? Do you have an innate ability to defend against multiple attackers.

I really don’t see your point now what schools do offer this training?

Apart from JKD real street fighting schools and those schools like krav maga etc....I never got anything like this from my old TMA school so maybe we should start a thread about how they lack these things....I did do knife work in my TCMA classes but it sucked and would likely get me killed if I used it, same with the multiple opponents stuff, why because none of it was pressured tested it was nearly all complaint walk through stuff, we never went really hard or tried to hurt each other.

Interestingly a lot of the JKD guys moved AWAY from this kind of training towards a more sports based approach, believing it was healthier and prepared them for real life confrontations better (matt Thornton, Paul Sharp, Burt Richardson the singer brothers etc)

The best knife defence work I have ever seen didn’t come from a TMA or a Filipino school, it comes from a Greco roman wrestler and BJJ black belt who gave up JKD and Filipino knife stuff AFTER being stabbed by multiple opponents and developed a programme based around controlling the knife arm and the opponent using his sport grappling skills

[Dragonzbane76]

The best knife defence work I have ever seen didn’t come from a TMA or a Filipino school, it comes from a Greco roman wrestler and BJJ black belt who gave up JKD and Filipino knife stuff AFTER being stabbed by multiple opponents and developed a programme based around controlling the knife arm and the opponent using his sport grappling skills

Myself included in that, I never really got any weapons training in TCMA and the stuff I was shown was total crap. The best stuff I recieved for knife/weapons was from a Judo instructor. He taught a lot of restrains and controlling movements in clinch for knife work. His stuff was top notch.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Apart from JKD real street fighting schools and those schools like krav maga etc....I never got anything like this from my old TMA school so maybe we should start a thread about how they lack these things....I did do knife work in my TCMA classes but it sucked and would likely get me killed if I used it, same with the multiple opponents stuff, why because none of it was pressured tested it was nearly all complaint walk through stuff, we never went really hard or tried to hurt each other.


This ISN't about tma versus mma. Even if it were revealing the sins of TMA doesn't absolve mma of its.



Interestingly a lot of the JKD guys moved AWAY from this kind of training towards a more sports based approach, believing it was healthier and prepared them for real life confrontations better (matt Thornton, Paul Sharp, Burt Richardson the singer brothers etc)

That doesn't really make any sense. Jkd has always been about training street situations with a live opponent. Burton's website. http://jkdunlimited.com/videos/ They have added grappling, but I think that it would be hard to say that they have moved away from their core beliefs. Inosanto, Balicki, and others all do the same things as Richardson.



The best knife defence work I have ever seen didn’t come from a TMA or a Filipino school, it comes from a Greco roman wrestler and BJJ black belt who gave up JKD and Filipino knife stuff AFTER being stabbed by multiple opponents and developed a programme based around controlling the knife arm and the opponent using his sport grappling skills
That's nice but it isn't getting trained in mma schools so it really doesn't detract from my thesis.

[SevenStar]

Incorrect understanding of how to properly construct a bil jee or any eye gouge and apply it. you should have no problem hitting a hard surface.

Edit:
The Bil Jee is thrown in a manner akin to the flicker jab in boxing. Moreover, the bil jee is constructed so that the fingers are curled and collapse when they hit a solid surface. As stated above, if you were taught to throw a bil jee so that it pierces a rmellon, you were shown incorrectly.


finger flicks are exactly what we did. but they were always pulled - no face shield, no actual contact, as I stated previously. We also raked the eyes - but never with contact. My point isn't about the shield itself. it is about the technique.... the eyes are a small target your opponent doesn't want you to hit them. any number of things can happen - your aim can be off, he can rush in with his head low, etc. And you end up colliding with his forehead which could prove to be quite painful. even with the collapsing, your forward momentum vs my forward momentum and direct collision with my skull...

[SevenStar]

That doesn't really make any sense. Jkd has always been about training street situations with a live opponent. Burton's website. http://jkdunlimited.com/videos/ They have added grappling, but I think that it would be hard to say that they have moved away from their core beliefs. Inosanto, Balicki, and others all do the same things as Richardson.

Check out straight blast gym. They don't even trap anymore. their trapping range work has been replaced by clinch work, and the clinch is what is more likely to happen in a situation.

[Frost]

This ISN't about tma versus mma. Even if it were revealing the sins of TMA doesn't absolve mma of its. .

but what you dont seem to get is there are no sin's to reveal, most MMA gyms dont sell their products as being for the street, they admit its for the ring/cage, and those that do sell it as self defence offer different classes for this. Its not like london shootfighting or gracie barra are running around saying they can prepare you for the street and making false promises like some TMA schools i can mention



That doesn't really make any sense. Jkd has always been about training street situations with a live opponent. Burton's website. http://jkdunlimited.com/videos/ They have added grappling, but I think that it would be hard to say that they have moved away from their core beliefs. Inosanto, Balicki, and others all do the same things as Richardson. .

Burton didnt just add grappling, his exposure to grappling and MMA under Egan totally changed how he trained and viewed training and most in the JKD crowd hated him for it and his writings about it.

He ditched all the trapping, complicated knife and stick flows dumog etc and now spars and trains MMA and adapts those methods for his self defence stuff, but he is not typical of JKD guys, they hate him for the most part. In fact if it wasnt for Dan insanto taking BJJ and thai most of the JKD guys would still be doing lock flows and trapping and not full on sparring



That's nice but it isn't getting trained in mma schools so it really doesn't detract from my thesis.

Yes isnt it nice :rolleyes:, and since the guy runs a full time MMA and grappling school, and is head of a chain of school here in the UK that produces national and international competitiors in both arena's (as well as teaching his guys to defend against a knife) wouldnt you call them MMA gyms?:rolleyes:

[rogue]

Check out straight blast gym. They don't even trap anymore. their trapping range work has been replaced by clinch work, and the clinch is what is more likely to happen in a situation.

That's one of the "ranges" I never really understood. good riddance to it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=6azNDgWv5kM&feature=related

[Yum Cha]

Hey, don't go dissing the trapping!

You wouldn't give up your check kicks and hand techniques?

Thing I like about trapping, is that it attacks centre of gravity, without the commitment of grappling.

I wouldn't say its preferable to grappling, just a different skill. Really nice skill when it comes to surprising people. The way their eyeballs get all round and show the white when they realise they're farked....


Side note -

I noticed Seven and a bunch of the other MMA vets have come back all at the same time. What's the story? They close down the free Ladies Nacho Cheese wrestling website, or what?

[SoCo KungFu]

I noticed Seven and a bunch of the other MMA vets have come back all at the same time. What's the story? They close down the free Ladies Nacho Cheese wrestling website, or what?

There was a Nacho Cheese Ladies Wrestling site? WTF and no one told me? Please tell me I didn't miss any ninjettes......

[GeneChing]

Nacho Cheese Ladies Wrestling website (http://www.ilovenachocheese.com/)

http://s133702574.onlinehome.us/pictures/blog/nachocheesewrestling.jpg

Seven and the other MMA vets are back because they know CMA is fun.