TMA inferior/Lacking?

[Dragonzbane76]

Saw this posted in another thread and thought it would be a good discussion.



Are modern MA superior or TMA failing in training standards.

Sorry to whom ever this was that posted in WC forum for stealing your thread. :p

discuss

[brothernumber9]

what are training standards and who standardized them.
what constitutes modern MA. What constitutes a TMA.
All these things are kind of ambiguous, so the question will be broken down differently by how an individual defines each component.

But I think I understand the context of the question, and in general the "standards" of how people train in what many of us would identify as TMA has dropped off compared to how the same TMA styles/schools trained in the 70's-80's perhaps up through the early nineties. However, although a fair number of schools and clubs are having to close due to economic strains, I think more and more that stick it out, are starting to incorporate or supplement thier "old" curriculums with separate and specific grappling and aerobic classes and some even full contact with the intention to compete in MMA type events. So except for the incorporation of missing components like grappling/ground fighting, more are starting to raise the "standard" again.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Humans have two arms, two legs, one head. As far as striking goes there are only so many ways in which a person can strike. There will not be any new or innovative strikes created ever, what has been done is done. Training methods are what have come to define a high standard on if a technique works or not. If it works in combat, or a full contact setting, it is good.

TMA pretty much contain all strikes and probably at one time trained all strikes in a highly efficient manner so the person could test and use them. Law suits and the general pussification of the US as a society led to watered down, McDojo whatever you want to call it schools that focused more on kata, point and little to no contact sparring, and other such garbage that made once great systems half ass**ed shells of their former selves.

Grappling arts are the same way. In many Japanese Jiu Jitsu, Aikido, and even Judo schoools compliant techniques took the place of randori, so instead of testing in an efficient manner you have "grab my wrist, no the other wrist, now flip and tap when I throw you" BS.

This debate is the same as the arguing over the internet theory, even if you win your still retarded. There will always be crappy MA schools and good fighting MA schools. MMA is not some kind of enlightenment movement, it is simply a method of training that produces results in the area of fighting. Most TMA schools used to do this, and many still do. But there will always be those who say and those that do, and it's not hard to see who fits where!

[MightyB]

TMA is lacking "aliveness". That's where it fails. Matt Thornton of the straight blast gym does a good job explaining what "aliveness" is and how arts like boxing, judo, MMA, jiu-jitsu, san da, shuai jiao, and wrestling all use it to make superior martial artists. IMO - If TMA would incorporate "aliveness", it'd be a lot better.

[taai gihk yahn]

TMA is lacking "aliveness". That's where it fails. Matt Thornton of the straight blast gym does a good job explaining what "aliveness" is and how arts like boxing, judo, MMA, jiu-jitsu, san da, shuai jiao, and wrestling all use it to make superior martial artists. IMO - If TMA would incorporate "aliveness", it'd be a lot better.
simple formula: increased aliveness = decreased enrollment

[TenTigers]

is it me, or are there several threads here all saying the same thing? It seems every time I click on a thread, I feel that I just read it five minutes ago.

[Frost]

simple formula: increased aliveness = decreased enrollment

maybe maybe not

i hear what you are saying but over here kung fu classes attract a few people of a certain mindset, heck we hear on this forum pople teacghing 3 4 or 5 students, all the mma classes i go to are pretty much full, last class i went to had about 30 people on the mats sparring

[tiaji1983]

LOL. from my experience, this is a huge misconseption in TCMA. Not just by outsiders, but by TCMAs...

If we treat the forms as alive, they are alive. They have a lot to offer us. One movement can be 1000 things and 1000 things can be practiced with one movement. One movement can turn into any movement, and any movment can be used in any sequence. We train the form until 1st we no longer think about it, then we do the applications automatically, then, most important, the movements become NATURAL.
However, most TCMAs treat the forms as dead. They treat the forms as 1 movement = a few applications, follow up with this movement and this movement as in the form. That makes your art DEAD. Thats what gives us the reputation we have with other MAs and what Bruce Lee didnt understand, hence why he made Jeet Kune Do. He used a set number of punches, kicks, chin na, and shuai jiao, from different styles and made... something out of them... and that makes them formless, because theres no forms. BUT a punch is just a punch, a kick is just a kick. an example of the loss of effectiveness is his 1 inch punch. To do this properly, you should be able to do it from 0 inches. They train a specific way so thats how it comes out. If you learn the form correctly, you do not train the movements a specific way, and any movement can come out anyway...

[YouKnowWho]

If we treat the forms as alive, they are alive.

IMO, the TCMA solo form/drill training will need some modification. No matter how you train your solo form/drill, there is no reference for the "distance", "angle", and "feet position" between you and your oponent. One way to improve this is to mark your opponent's foot position on the ground and use that as your reference points when you train your solo.

[Frost]

LOL. from my experience, this is a huge misconseption in TCMA. Not just by outsiders, but by TCMAs...

If we treat the forms as alive, they are alive. They have a lot to offer us. One movement can be 1000 things and 1000 things can be practiced with one movement. One movement can turn into any movement, and any movment can be used in any sequence. We train the form until 1st we no longer think about it, then we do the applications automatically, then, most important, the movements become NATURAL.
However, most TCMAs treat the forms as dead. They treat the forms as 1 movement = a few applications, follow up with this movement and this movement as in the form. That makes your art DEAD. Thats what gives us the reputation we have with other MAs and what Bruce Lee didnt understand, hence why he made Jeet Kune Do. He used a set number of punches, kicks, chin na, and shuai jiao, from different styles and made... something out of them... and that makes them formless, because theres no forms. BUT a punch is just a punch, a kick is just a kick. an example of the loss of effectiveness is his 1 inch punch. To do this properly, you should be able to do it from 0 inches. They train a specific way so thats how it comes out. If you learn the form correctly, you do not train the movements a specific way, and any movement can come out anyway...

no they are not, there is no timing, distance or motion involved, hence they are not alive

[Frost]

IMO, the TCMA solo form/drill training will need some modification. No matter how you train your solo form/drill, there is no reference for the "distance", "angle", and "feet position" between you and your oponent. One way to improve this is to mark your opponent's foot position on the ground and use that as your reference points when you train your solo.

or you could just do them with a resisting moving partner, like you crazy chinese wrestling guys :)

[rogue]

Can we please ban the ridiculous use of the word "aliveness". Please?

Training without a specific outcome as a goal is training for trainings sake. If you're looking to be a kata champ then your training should reflect that, if it's to lose weight then it should reflect that, if it's to be a door kicker then it should reflect that.

Training for training's sake is something many, maybe most, people do as they find the actual training enjoyable. And while it's not a scientific study I notice those folks tend towards TMA. This doesn't make TMA inferior unless you use the training with a goal in mind that it doesn't support.

[IronWeasel]

is it me, or are there several threads here all saying the same thing? It seems every time I click on a thread, I feel that I just read it five minutes ago.



I know what you mean...

It's like Deja Fu.

[taai gihk yahn]

LOL. from my experience, this is a huge misconseption in TCMA. Not just by outsiders, but by TCMAs...

If we treat the forms as alive, they are alive. They have a lot to offer us. One movement can be 1000 things and 1000 things can be practiced with one movement. One movement can turn into any movement, and any movment can be used in any sequence. We train the form until 1st we no longer think about it, then we do the applications automatically, then, most important, the movements become NATURAL.
However, most TCMAs treat the forms as dead. They treat the forms as 1 movement = a few applications, follow up with this movement and this movement as in the form. That makes your art DEAD. Thats what gives us the reputation we have with other MAs and what Bruce Lee didnt understand, hence why he made Jeet Kune Do. He used a set number of punches, kicks, chin na, and shuai jiao, from different styles and made... something out of them... and that makes them formless, because theres no forms. BUT a punch is just a punch, a kick is just a kick. an example of the loss of effectiveness is his 1 inch punch. To do this properly, you should be able to do it from 0 inches. They train a specific way so thats how it comes out. If you learn the form correctly, you do not train the movements a specific way, and any movement can come out anyway...
no, this is EXACTLY the sort of misconception that has lead TCMA down the road to ruin: no move in any form is in any way like what it would be when you do it against someone else, for the simple reason that you are not doing it against someone else - as soon as you add another person into the equation you radically change the contextual demands on every level: reaction, visual processing, postural control, kinesthetic awareness, muscle sequence firing, etc.; doing a movement automatically in the air and thinking that it will just spontaneously manifest when you are fighting is the sort of silliness that will get you killed; if you automatically do it against an opponent the same way you do it in a solo form, you will have no capacity to respond to what the opponent is doing, you will be stuck in the "automatics" of the form itself;
form training is ancillary, supplemental, tertiary; it is a catalogue, an outline at best; to practice a form straight through for purposes other than performance makes no sense (with the exception of so-called "attribute" forms, like san chien, but that sort of thing in and of itself has nothing to do with fighting per se - it's a form of conditioning that you then need to contextualize properly);

better to do away with all non-attribute forms training and stick to practicing techniques against bags / pads and opponents resisting to various degrees; leave forms to performance and lineage identification;

[SoCo KungFu]

You know for all the talk about what is or isn't fighting and helps fighting or useful to fighting. If people were to just go out and fight somebody, half the discussion on this forum wouldn't exist. The rest would be nacho cheese and Brazilian women....

[taai gihk yahn]

You know for all the talk about what is or isn't fighting and helps fighting or useful to fighting. If people were to just go out and fight somebody, half the discussion on this forum wouldn't exist. The rest would be nacho cheese and Brazilian women....

I think you have hit on something here - perhaps a sea-change is in order...

[bawang]

i think kung fu is inferior. how people think chinese farmer boxing is deadly advanced science, i dont know. i do kung fu for culture and history

[SoCo KungFu]

I think you have hit on something here - perhaps a sea-change is in order...

Will this transformation involve dairy products and female anatomical structure?

[Scott R. Brown]

You know for all the talk about what is or isn't fighting and helps fighting or useful to fighting. If people were to just go out and fight somebody, half the discussion on this forum wouldn't exist. The rest would be nacho cheese and Brazilian women....

And the missing half would be in jail or the hospital recovering!

[taai gihk yahn]

Will this transformation involve dairy products and female anatomical structure?

Milkshakes and handjobs for all my friends!

[Hebrew Hammer]

I'm so tired of this argument as well, somehow before the existance of MMA, we were incapable of fighting effecitively...oops I mean with 'aliveness'. What a crock of crap. This have a groud game or walk away in shame is BS...I must admit my idea of a good time or good training does NOT involve me rolling around in some dudes guard. This fairy tale of 75%-90% of all fights end up on the ground is pure fiction...now there is a 75-90% chance that one of the combatants ends up on the ground is believable.

I like TCMA for several reasons, one like Bawang stated, its about culture and history...for me its also about fantasy (easy lads easy)...I get to be an ancient martial artist, learning to fight with exotic weapons that you would never get to use in modern day. Its about fitness, I like the fact that after practicing for 3-4 years in CLF/Chi Kung...I wouldn't feel like I had mastered most of it...it would take many more years. Most modern arts you can feel really confortable in mastering them in that same 3-4 years. This martial arts insecurity thing is amusing to me...like the UFC and MMA are the only 'REAL' examples of fighting and what 'works' (as long as there's a ref, timed rounds, no weapons, only one opponent, protective gear, and illegal blows that you'd be penalized with).

[David Jamieson]

tma are not inferior or lacking.

if they were, they wouldn't be the wellspring everyone visits.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Saw this posted in another thread and thought it would be a good discussion.




Sorry to whom ever this was that posted in WC forum for stealing your thread. :p

discuss

Mostly just n training method. If a TMA use modern training methods, you can feel pretty good about it.

[tiaji1983]

Thank you for your replies, but everyone's experience is different... I would like to share my theories with stories to back them up.

I was once showing 2 friends what taichi was in a park. One who done Muy Thai, one who was a Wrestler in High School. At this time I was not with my current teacher, and I was learning BS from someone who really didnt know Taichi. I knew this so I studied from DVDs, and learned the forms and "applications" alone and practiced daily with an imaginary opponent. I probably had 3 years training just forms with very little partner training at this point. I was showing the wrestler what sticky hands was, and he was rushing in trying to hit me and access my center while I stuck to him. He kept getting closer, and on his 3rd attempt, I side stepped 90 degrees and used needle at the bottom of the sea. No thought was involved, it happened naturally, he lost his balance and stumbled like 15 feet away. There is no 90 degree step in needle at the bottom of the sea, and I had, at that point, never seen it used in that context before. So this, for me, proves that direction training is not 100% necessary, I jsut treated every movement as 1 individual movement. It also proved to me partner training for each movement is not necessary. But thats for you to decide.

Another example was at work, after I was with my current teacher for about a year. There was a guy that liked to test me cuz he knew I did MA. One day he threw a punch at me that came close to my face. I used press to move the punch away and chopped at his neck, as in some of the movements in the 48 movement form. I did not think, it came naturally. I never practiced this application and it is not referenced anywhere online, or anywhere I ever heard of. I just done the forms repeatedly, and it just happened.

Another expample was when I went home to visit my family. I had started stationary push hands at this time. I do agree that push hands does help learn how to feel the opponent, guage distance, and utilize the attackers force, so it is a necessary tool, but at this time I had not sparred at all. 3 of my brothers wanted to test me out to see what I had. One of my brothers ran up and tried to hit me with a sucker punch. I used a movement from Wudang Taichi to nuetralize and send him off balance. Then the other 2 came in, I used movements from Yang and Chen to evade, and escape, and drunken footwork to bring them in between eachother. after a while, they the grabbed me, and tried to bring me to the ground. One tried an armbar, which I used the unbendable arm to counter while keeping the other away using snake techniques. When my brother gave up on the armbar, the other tried to get me in the sleeper, when I used a drunken boxing technique to escape, and thats when they gave up. The point of this story is that with no sparring or technical trianing, only form practice and push hands, I was able to defend myself against 3 opponents.

So if that is the case, why is all that other stuff necessary?

[taai gihk yahn]

So if that is the case, why is all that other stuff necessary?
first, from what you describe in terms of how they tried to play with you they all sound like a bunch of scrubs;

but even if not, more importantly, in none of these cases was any of the people you mentioned actually trying to seriously cause you bodily harm - they were all friends, relatives, co-workers, etc. who were trying to "test you out", so in essence it was all just play - they were not fellow people seriously training with you who were pushing you hard to work what u had realistically, they were not competing full-contact against you trying to KYTFO, and they were not trying to kick your asz for realz on t3h str33t;

context is a vital component, and u need to pressure test what you know realistically; but hey, if u think that solo training forms is sufficient to get u out of a high-pressure situation, that's cool;

[YouKnowWho]

I like TCMA for several reasons,
In TCMA, there are always 2 kind of applications for each move. The "sport" application that you use in a friendly sport environment, and the "combat" application that you use against unfriendly challengers or life threaten situation. By using the front cut (Osoto Gari) as example, if you just want to throw your opponent, you can just push at your opponent's shoulder and kick his leg off the ground. If you want to hurt your opponent badly, you can twist your leg on your opponent's leg and then sit down on his knee joint sideway. The TCMA can give you both options.

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/osotogari.htm

[Hardwork108]

The rest would be nacho cheese and Brazilian women....

I don't like cheese..:D

[Frost]

I'm so tired of this argument as well, somehow before the existance of MMA, we were incapable of fighting effecitively...oops I mean with 'aliveness'. What a crock of crap. This have a groud game or walk away in shame is BS...I must admit my idea of a good time or good training does NOT involve me rolling around in some dudes guard. This fairy tale of 75%-90% of all fights end up on the ground is pure fiction...now there is a 75-90% chance that one of the combatants ends up on the ground is believable.

I like TCMA for several reasons, one like Bawang stated, its about culture and history...for me its also about fantasy (easy lads easy)...I get to be an ancient martial artist, learning to fight with exotic weapons that you would never get to use in modern day. Its about fitness, I like the fact that after practicing for 3-4 years in CLF/Chi Kung...I wouldn't feel like I had mastered most of it...it would take many more years. Most modern arts you can feel really confortable in mastering them in that same 3-4 years. This martial arts insecurity thing is amusing to me...like the UFC and MMA are the only 'REAL' examples of fighting and what 'works' (as long as there's a ref, timed rounds, no weapons, only one opponent, protective gear, and illegal blows that you'd be penalized with).

why does everyone always assume us MMA guys want to go to the ground? :confused: i am just as happy fecking you up standing and in the clinch :)

can i ask which modern arts you mastered in 3 years? i have deen doing thai/boxing for about a decade and grappling for about 7 years and still have only scratched the surface....the difference is after 6 months to a year most of our guys are comfortable in a fight and know they can look after themselves and use what they know, not sure i can say the same about the old CMA i sued to do or the people that trained it :)

As for the comment nothing was wrong with TCMA and the way it was trained and those guys could still fight before the UFC please watch the early UFCs and the gracies challanges to see just how deluded most TCMA schools were back then (myself included lol)

its not the only venue to test yourself, but if you cant win with limited rules, 1 on 1 and without weapons in the mix what the feck makes you think you can win when those things are added?

[Frost]

Thank you for your replies, but everyone's experience is different... I would like to share my theories with stories to back them up.

I was once showing 2 friends what taichi was in a park. One who done Muy Thai, one who was a Wrestler in High School. At this time I was not with my current teacher, and I was learning BS from someone who really didnt know Taichi. I knew this so I studied from DVDs, and learned the forms and "applications" alone and practiced daily with an imaginary opponent. I probably had 3 years training just forms with very little partner training at this point. I was showing the wrestler what sticky hands was, and he was rushing in trying to hit me and access my center while I stuck to him. He kept getting closer, and on his 3rd attempt, I side stepped 90 degrees and used needle at the bottom of the sea. No thought was involved, it happened naturally, he lost his balance and stumbled like 15 feet away. There is no 90 degree step in needle at the bottom of the sea, and I had, at that point, never seen it used in that context before. So this, for me, proves that direction training is not 100% necessary, I jsut treated every movement as 1 individual movement. It also proved to me partner training for each movement is not necessary. But thats for you to decide.

Another example was at work, after I was with my current teacher for about a year. There was a guy that liked to test me cuz he knew I did MA. One day he threw a punch at me that came close to my face. I used press to move the punch away and chopped at his neck, as in some of the movements in the 48 movement form. I did not think, it came naturally. I never practiced this application and it is not referenced anywhere online, or anywhere I ever heard of. I just done the forms repeatedly, and it just happened.

Another expample was when I went home to visit my family. I had started stationary push hands at this time. I do agree that push hands does help learn how to feel the opponent, guage distance, and utilize the attackers force, so it is a necessary tool, but at this time I had not sparred at all. 3 of my brothers wanted to test me out to see what I had. One of my brothers ran up and tried to hit me with a sucker punch. I used a movement from Wudang Taichi to nuetralize and send him off balance. Then the other 2 came in, I used movements from Yang and Chen to evade, and escape, and drunken footwork to bring them in between eachother. after a while, they the grabbed me, and tried to bring me to the ground. One tried an armbar, which I used the unbendable arm to counter while keeping the other away using snake techniques. When my brother gave up on the armbar, the other tried to get me in the sleeper, when I used a drunken boxing technique to escape, and thats when they gave up. The point of this story is that with no sparring or technical trianing, only form practice and push hands, I was able to defend myself against 3 opponents.

So if that is the case, why is all that other stuff necessary?

can i ask, have you ever actually really sparred or had a fight (or even trained with anyone)

[SoCo KungFu]

why does everyone always assume us MMA guys want to go to the ground? :confused: i am just as happy fecking you up standing and in the clinch :)


Yep. I don't "want" to get in a fight period. Fighting isn't about "want." If I'm throwing punches in public then sh!ts already gone downhill. At that point its about being prepared for everything. My striking is my best skill. I just so happen to be getting pretty decent at BJJ and I can defend myself on the ground should things go there. It has absolutely nothing to do with what I "want." If that were the case I'd be drinking Canadian beer watching Brazilian women wrestle in Americanized, Mexican nacho cheese....

[Hebrew Hammer]

can i ask which modern arts you mastered in 3 years?

Valid question, and I have mastered none, but I have done MMA training and TCMA each for about a 1yr in length...I enjoy both I just feel that TCMA has much more complexity and richness to it...its my opinion, I love UFC and MMA as well and think it is a very efficient and effective fighting system. I just dont believe it is necessarily superior.

Its great that you aren't into the ground portion of MMA, I believe you don't have to be but you should know how to defend against taken downs and chokes as part of your martial arts training.

[Frost]

Valid question, and I have mastered none, but I have done MMA training and TCMA each for about a 1yr in length...I enjoy both I just feel that TCMA has much more complexity and richness to it...its my opinion, I love UFC and MMA as well and think it is a very efficient and effective fighting system. I just dont believe it is necessarily superior.

Its great that you aren't into the ground portion of MMA, I believe you don't have to be but you should know how to defend against taken downs and chokes as part of your martial arts training.

I am actually very into the grappling game, I have competed and won at various grappling comps, but I have also trained extensively in stand up and clinch and know I can hang with good guys standing and beat a fair few in the clinch.

I did TCMA for 10 years and TMA for 15 in total, and have done sports for a decade or so both are rich, both are complex but the difference is where as TCMA is rich and complex in areas that are both fighting and non fighting related, sport arts are complex in the fighting arena and everything it does is to make you a better fighter, it has no pretensions to make you a better more spiritual person.

Both get you fit, both allow you to learn new things and both can be great fun.

as for not knowing the ground well i think everyone should be comfortable down there from a self defence perspective, how much time you spent working it is a personal matter...ladies i would suggest they spend a majority of time down there, men i would suggest spend more time in the clinch but thats just my view

[tiaji1983]

To answer your question Frost, yes I have been in a real fight, and yes I have seen real violence. The area I grew up in were full of gangs. My family was involved with one gang, and the rest of the neighborhood was another, so we were fighting all the time. Also I been in the military, so I have seen "pressure training"... Have I been in a real fight since I been trained in TCMA? No. Lately I have been able to avoid fights for the most part. I feel the training has changed my perceptions on things. I have been in one situation where a guy grabbed my arm and wouldnt let it go. He was about 4 times my size, so I used needle at the bottom of the sea, he swung and I avoided the attack and it was broken up immediately. Other than that, no no fights since I been trained.

I do train with other people. I have done light sparring with people outside of my school. The Muy Thai guy I mentioned was one of them. He was a decent tournament fighter. I also train with other people at the school I train at. My teacher doesnt like us to spar each other because the way we are trained. But we do drills and work with bags and stuff like that. We do not train applications in a way where we actually fight each other. Our teacher demonstrates the application, and its our job to research and develop them. We practice the form in full, imagining an opponent. Then we do each movement and research each movmement individually to learn as many possibilities as we can with the movement. Then we try it on eachother or on freinds, or on the streets. I like to try the things I learn on different people, and I been doing that long enough to tell what works and what doesnt. then whenever we do the movement in the form, all the possiblities are trained at the same time, and eventually they come out by themselves. There is no need for sparring, or bagwork. Im sure a lot of people here would frown at that, but thats the way it is... I do use bagwork to develop sensitivity for push hands, and I use it to practice striking.

I am very sure it will work in a real fight situation because I have been in fights before. I have seen fights before. I know how a lot of stuff goes down. Since the way we train, the movements come out naturally, I am confident in what we are learning. Sometimes it even comes out naturally when we dont want it to. An example of that was one time a girl got mad at me and grabbed my shirt in a threatining manner. I didnt think, just reacted, I grabbed her hand and done a roll back, and her face almost hit the wall. Luckily I realized what Iwas doing and stopped in time....

Another example of it coming naturally, would be there was a martial artist who trains military personnel, special forces and green barrets. He was trained in Traditional Shotokan Karate and Military Jiujitsu. He was very good and was known for throwing his biggers students around like rag dolls, in training and if he was attacked in a real life situation. He was by no means weak or ill trained even though he was older. He was doing a demonstration at our school, and thought TCMA was just forms and Qigong. He wanted to make an example of me by showing a wrist lock which I let him do. Then he started talking like we were inferior, so I asked if I could show him a counter. He tried again and I used the unbendable arm technique, and he could not lock my wrist. Then he threw a punch to demonstrate what he would do, which was pretty fast. I was able to deflect and he threw anohter punch. I deflected and stopped short of slapping his head. He looked shocked, and then said "too late!" to save face, then he asked to try again. we did almost the same thing, accept he tried to surprise me with a knee, and i used golden rooster stands on one leg. His knee fell short of mine and hit my calve. he then shy'd away and said he won because the knee was the weakest part of the body and he hit my knee. I said "thank you sifu", and let him keep his dignity. THere was no need to embarass him infront of his students when it was only a demo. I didnt think to do any of that, it all just happened naturally.

I do not think or do not agree, that syles like muy thai or jiujitsu or MMA are not valid on the streets. But people that train for competitions train for competitions, not the streets. I do not believe that any art is better than any other, just different people train different. Thats the purpose of my posting on here, to show that TCMA are not invalid, and that the Traditional Training Methods are not invalid. My teacher is going to have us go to the ghetto part of town to a place were guaranteed to get into a fight before he certifies us as a Sifu. When I get into that fight, if I still have the computer, I will gladly post the results on here. :)

[Dragonzbane76]

My teacher is going to have us go to the ghetto part of town to a place were guaranteed to get into a fight before he certifies us as a Sifu. When I get into that fight, if I still have the computer, I will gladly post the results on here.

wow that's probably not a good idea.... Most of the people I know in the "ghetto" would just shot your a$$ instead of fight. Why would you be stupid and do something like that?

[tiaji1983]

I grew up in those kinds of areas. Plus my teacher is well known there, and he has connections with a gang that runs things in that area. With what he was saying about the place we would be, I would be more worried about a knife or getting jumped than a gun. Plus the problems tend to stay in that area unless things get serious, so Im not too worried about retaliation. And my teacher would be there as an equalizer. Either way, I would rather test my skills in a semi controlled environment with someone I know who has the ill intention than in a ring where theres rules and regulations to stop the fight before it begins...

[Frost]

I grew up in those kinds of areas. Plus my teacher is well known there, and he has connections with a gang that runs things in that area. With what he was saying about the place we would be, I would be more worried about a knife or getting jumped than a gun. Plus the problems tend to stay in that area unless things get serious, so Im not too worried about retaliation. And my teacher would be there as an equalizer. Either way, I would rather test my skills in a semi controlled environment with someone I know who has the ill intention than in a ring where theres rules and regulations to stop the fight before it begins...

yep because the last thing you want to do is actually try your skills against a trained opponent who knows how to fight back and who you have no controll over, far better to try it on with a friend of your teacher :rolleyes:

[tiaji1983]

lol no it wouldnt be my friend or a teacher. It would be someone I dont know. Just there would be precautions taken...

[MysteriousPower]

I grew up in those kinds of areas. Plus my teacher is well known there, and he has connections with a gang that runs things in that area. With what he was saying about the place we would be, I would be more worried about a knife or getting jumped than a gun. Plus the problems tend to stay in that area unless things get serious, so Im not too worried about retaliation. And my teacher would be there as an equalizer. Either way, I would rather test my skills in a semi controlled environment with someone I know who has the ill intention than in a ring where theres rules and regulations to stop the fight before it begins...

Not to burst your bubble or anything but it sounds like you are going to just be having a bareknuckled sparring match with some guy on the street. Would not it be safer to soar with someone from another school? Why set up this elaborate sparring match in the ghetto? Unless your opponent is from Japan and you are a wrestler from Russia(Blood Sport reference).

By the way don't say the word ghetto around here cause some people get offended easily. Lol

[goju]

wouldnt it prove more if you actually sparred or even a trained person vs some bum hanging around on the corner looking for a fight?

I mean in the small handfullof street fights ive been in when i was younger the personS i had a fights with didnt really know how to defend themselves at all so it didnt really prove much besides the fact i could beat up a person who didnt know how to fight


set up an actual fight with some who trains so you can actually test yourself and stay out of jail, the hospital or the morgue:p

[MysteriousPower]

wouldnt it prove more if you actually sparred or even a trained person vs some bum hanging around on the corner looking for a fight?

I mean in the small handfullof street fights ive been in when i was younger the personS i had a fights with didnt really know how to defend themselves at all so it didnt really prove much besides the fact i could beat up a person who didnt know how to fight


set up an actual fight with some who trains so you can actually test yourself and stay out of jail, the hospital or the morgue:p

Here is an interesting debate, goju.

This guy says a person does not need to spar to develop fighting ability. If he wins against this gangbanger would that not prove his point? We will never know how skilled his opponent was but I think this might be interesting anyway.

[Frost]

Here is an interesting debate, goju.

This guy says a person does not need to spar to develop fighting ability. If he wins against this gangbanger would that not prove his point? We will never know how skilled his opponent was but I think this might be interesting anyway.

not really my brother could go and beat up a guy on the street with no actual training....to actually have merrit you approach needs to be able to beat another trained skilled opponent, then maybe your approach is the correct one

and his arguement is flawed anyway he says he doesnt want to test against a fighter in a comp with rules and regs, but the mere fact his sifu knows these guys and will be there means there will be unwritten rules that will be followed.

its not a true street fight, its closer to a NHB match against an unskilled opponent

[MysteriousPower]

not really my brother could go and beat up a guy on the street with no actual training....to actually have merrit you approach needs to be able to beat another trained skilled opponent, then maybe your approach is the correct one

and his arguement is flawed anyway he says he doesnt want to test against a fighter in a comp with rules and regs, but the mere fact his sifu knows these guys and will be there means there will be unwritten rules that will be followed.

its not a true street fight, its closer to a NHB match against an unskilled opponent

Point taken. I agree to a certain point. Suppose someone lives in a rough place and has survived many real street fights. These were not fights against trained fighters but others who have been in street fights. Would that not give some merit to a person as having some fighting ability? By winning numerous street ecounters a person has proven to have control over his adrenalin and fear. Discuss

[Frost]

Point taken. I agree to a certain point. Suppose someone lives in a rough place and has survived many real street fights. These were not fights against trained fighters but others who have been in street fights. Would that not give some merit to a person as having some fighting ability? By winning numerous street ecounters a person has proven to have control over his adrenalin and fear. Discuss

sorry but there is nothing to discuss as we are not talking about the merrits/strengths of street fighters we are talking about testing your training methology.

he is saying his way produces a good fighter, the only way to objectivally test this theory is to fight someone with a proven track record.

A sanctioned event allows you to see the level of your opponent and how many fights he has had very easily. Now if you can varify the fight record of the street fighter you are going up against and prove he is a good fighter then you can still test your methology.

[SoCo KungFu]

Did HW108 undergo cellular mitosis? This guy is like......

http://www.residualforces.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/facepalm.jpg

[goju]

the thing about people who claim they are street fighters is their are numerous factors which makes their accomplishments in the street ( if you can call it that) insignificant


they could be jumping people, they could be using weapons, friends, fighting people much smaller than them, fighting drunks, the list goes on and on

now if youre actually go against someone who is well trained its a different matter its and honest realistic test of your abilties rather than test than can often favor you if youre trained

i never saw the point of street fighting didnt make me feel special and its too risky:D

[HumbleWCGuy]

I have seen Anderson Silva use TKD, I have seen Machida use Shotokan, and I have seen Rashad Evans use Monkey kung fu movements to affect takedowns.

More and more MMA guys are either reinventing the wheel or borrowing from traditional arts so I think that it is hard to say that the techniques don't work and more to do with how things are trained.

I think that the people who have the most trouble with traditional arts are people who don't know how to push themselves or aren't interested in getting hit hard at all. So many TMAist who were softer than a pillow stuffed with bunnies are "hard" now because they can do BJJ, something where they don't get hit. This forum is full of them.

I should say that a lot of these "mmaists" are really just BJJist because they still just LARP with their upright.

[Frost]

I have seen Anderson Silva use TKD, I have seen Machida use Shotokan, and I have seen Rashad Evans use Monkey kung fu movements to affect takedowns.

More and more MMA guys are either reinventing the wheel or borrowing from traditional arts so I think that it is hard to say that the techniques don't work and more to do with how things are trained.

I think that the people who have the most trouble with traditional arts are people who don't know how to push themselves or aren't interested in getting hit hard at all. So many TMAist who were softer than a pillow stuffed with bunnies are "hard" now because they can do BJJ, something where they don't get hit. This forum is full of them.

I should say that a lot of these "mmaists" are really just BJJist because they still just LARP with their upright.

Rashad Evans has never done anything like monkey kung fu where the hell did you get that pearl from?!

As for the rest of your post, well where are all the traditionalists winning in MMA or K1 for that matter, Machida is the only person doing well in MMA with a traditonal background, all the others have trained thai or boxing (and no training TKD when you were 10 does not count) why do you think that is, where are all the rest?

[HumbleWCGuy]

Rashad Evans has never done anything like monkey kung fu where the hell did you get that pearl from?!



said monkey movements. I saw them with my own eyes. It is stuff straight out of the monkey kung fu play book. I doubt that he knows monkey so I am sure he just made it up which is fine. Since you don't know any monkey kung fu, I am not sure why you are trying to comment.

[Frost]

said monkey movements. I saw them with my own eyes. It is stuff straight out of the monkey kung fu play book. I doubt that he knows monkey so I am sure he just made it up which is fine. Since you don't know any monkey kung fu, I am not sure why you are trying to comment.

I have seen a little monky kung fu sp maybe you could post a clip of it for us to see i would be in terested in seeing it?

[HumbleWCGuy]

As for the rest of your post, well where are all the traditionalists winning in MMA or K1 for that matter, Machida is the only person doing well in MMA with a traditonal background, all the others have trained thai or boxing (and no training TKD when you were 10 does not count) why do you think that is, where are all the rest?


Anderson Silva TKD.
"Big Country" Ultimate fighter winner Kung fu
Bas Rutten Kyo Kushin
Cung le TKD

[Frost]

Anderson Silva TKD.

What about the years of thai he has done, the clinch, the boxing the leg kicks they are all thai, as is his present training regime.


"Big Country" Ultimate fighter winner Kung fu ...hes trained a lot but is known as a grappler, hes also trained boxing and god knows what


Bas Rutten Kyo Kushin
Baz has said himself he fights thai and thats where he really learned to fight


Cung le TKD high school grappler who trained 6 hours a day in sanshou with a san shou team

can you point to traditional only guys, not guys who did traditional arts in their youth then took up a sports art and occasionally bring out an old technique or two?

[HumbleWCGuy]

What about the years of thai he has done, the clinch, the boxing the leg kicks they are all thai, as is his present training regime.

[/QUOTE]
You can't ignore his TKD. He uses a side stance pretty frequently, low line side kicks, losts of snapping kicks.


...hes trained a lot but is known as a grappler, hes also trained boxing and god knows what

No body is disparaging his striking


Baz has said himself he fights thai and thats where he really learned to fight
high school grappler who trained 6 hours a day in sanshou with a san shou team

I would have to see that come out of his mouth.




can you point to traditional only guys, not guys who did traditional arts in their youth then took up a sports art and occasionally bring out an old technique or two?
The type of traditional guy you are talking about never really existed except for the LARPERS who were avoiding contact. Anybody trying to be credible would have a little judo, a little boxing, a little Blah blah.

[taai gihk yahn]

can you point to traditional only guys, not guys who did traditional arts in their youth then took up a sports art and occasionally bring out an old technique or two?
don't you realize that it's a classic case of exception proving the rule? or something like that...

the point is that, you can occasionally make some of the TMA stuff "work", because it is outside of the usual "rhythm" of MMA; however, if u don't have a solid base in MMA, thai, boxing, wrestling, etc., u won't last long enough to get to the point where u can do that;

game over;

[HumbleWCGuy]

I have seen a little monky kung fu sp maybe you could post a clip of it for us to see i would be in terested in seeing it?

Evans Jackson UFC 114? Rashad drops into a horse stance, leans over, flicks the jab, and goes in and scores a takedown. He does it a few times and it is something that he does fairly regularly. Both are pretty standard monkey tactics if you are talking about realistic monkey. If you are talking Paul E. Zink fantasy monkey, IDK. When I teach basic southern kung fu we teach a monkey stance and perform exactly the same techniques as Rashad. It's all about throwing the opponent off with something unorthodox, scoring a cheep takedown because they don't change levels with you. And back to standard tactics.

[HumbleWCGuy]

don't you realize that it's a classic case of exception proving the rule? or something like that...

the point is that, you can occasionally make some of the TMA stuff "work", because it is outside of the usual "rhythm" of MMA; however, if u don't have a solid base in MMA, thai, boxing, wrestling, etc., u won't last long enough to get to the point where u can do that;

game over;

I am not sure when thai stopped being traditional. When they started selling certifications via distance and seminar?

Anyway, I don't know of any martial arts that doesn't require sound fundamentals. Do you? If you see a TKD fighter get completely crushed do you honestly think that his fundamentals were sound?

[goju]

Rashad Evans has never done anything like monkey kung fu where the hell did you get that pearl from?!

As for the rest of your post, well where are all the traditionalists winning in MMA or K1 for that matter, Machida is the only person doing well in MMA with a traditonal background, all the others have trained thai or boxing (and no training TKD when you were 10 does not count) why do you think that is, where are all the rest?


um last time i checked muy thai fit the criteria for a traditional style

its centuries old came fromt he orient,etc,etc thats pretty much a tma right there

granted it doesnt have forms but i dont see that as the key piece to making it a "traditional" art

and whats with this where do you see them do this and that? you said you have done kung fu for how many years now ? you should do by now we dont fight like a jet li movie :D

cross training in wrestling or mt doesnt make them less of a tradtionalist. if you are competing against people from outside of your art it only makes sense to spend time stufdying what you are going against so you are fully prepared

as has been noted anderson STILL does tkd ive posted those recent picks of him in his olympic tkd gear training


cung le routinely preformed text book tkd kicking combinations in his fights ( im a tkd guy so i think i would be able to reconize them)

he also of course did sanda and pulled out a fe wmoves from vietnamese kung fu like the leg scissor


andy hug cross trained in tkd ,kk karate and kung fu he even advertised these arts in his website

bas supposedly as ive heard has a fifth degree bb in kk and a 3rd in tkd which says he continued to study the arts through out his career to get that high of a rank

[taai gihk yahn]

I am not sure when thai stopped being traditional.

um last time i checked muy thai fit the criteria for a traditional style
its centuries old came fromt he orient,etc,etc thats pretty much a tma right there
granted it doesnt have forms but i dont see that as the key piece to making it a "traditional" art
contemporary MT is not "traditional" in the sense of an indigenous non-competition oriented martial system, as the current version is a relatively recent modification (~1850's) of "traditional" Thai MA (muay boran); ontologically, it would be the equivalent of Judo to jujitsu or more recently WTF TKD relative to the older "kwans" (or even to taekyun, if there ever really was such a thing originally, but anyway...);
furthermore, MT utilizes a decidedly "modern" training regimine relative to more "traditional" systems;
the fact that it does NOT have forms would place it firmly in the minds of most "traditionalists" into a "non-traditional" category;


Anyway, I don't know of any martial arts that doesn't require sound fundamentals. Do you? If you see a TKD fighter get completely crushed do you honestly think that his fundamentals were sound?
you can have strong fundamentals in one system and still get demolished by someone who has average fundamentals in another system (or none at all if they are an aggressive brawler w/experience in "t3h str33t") depending on what each system considers fundamental and how they train it, which varies greatly;
as far as using TKD as an example of "sound fundamentals", you are talking about a system that is almost two different arts at this point: the average WTF TKD school trains "traditional" stances, does one/three step-sparring, some self defense and those god-awful taeguek forms (the art), but then it essentially eschews all of it when it gets into sparring, which it trains almost completely differently, with strong emphasis on a relatively limited number of kics / kicking combos / strategies and minimal hand techniques, designed for the sole purpose of success in Olympic TKD style fighting (the sport); so it's not much of a stretch to see a TKD fighter w/"sound fundamentals" get his asz handed to him in an MMA or "t3h str33t" situation, because the training is pigeon-holed pretty much from the get go (did a little TKD myself, WTF and Moo Duk Kwan, for ~10 yrs., so I have some basis in that as well)

[goju]

contemporary MT is not "traditional" in the sense of an indigenous non-competition oriented martial system, as the current version is a relatively recent modification (~1850's) of "traditional" Thai MA (muay boran); ontologically, it would be the equivalent of Judo to jujitsu or more recently WTF TKD relative to the older "kwans" (or even to taekyun, if there ever really was such a thing originally, but anyway...);
furthermore, MT utilizes a decidedly "modern" training regimine relative to more "traditional" systems;
the fact that it does NOT have forms would place it firmly in the minds of most "traditionalists" into a "non-traditional" category;


so it basically boils down to semantics and people who think traditional arts have never evolved over the centuries and shouldnt either lol oh boy

[HumbleWCGuy]

contemporary MT is not "traditional" in the sense of an indigenous non-competition oriented martial system, as the current version is a relatively recent modification (~1850's) of "traditional" Thai MA (muay boran); ontologically, it would be the equivalent of Judo to jujitsu or more recently WTF TKD relative to the older "kwans" (or even to taekyun, if there ever really was such a thing originally, but anyway...);
furthermore, MT utilizes a decidedly "modern" training regimine relative to more "traditional" systems;
the fact that it does NOT have forms would place it firmly in the minds of most "traditionalists" into a "non-traditional" category;

you can have strong fundamentals in one system and still get demolished by someone who has average fundamentals in another system (or none at all if they are an aggressive brawler w/experience in "t3h str33t") depending on what each system considers fundamental and how they train it, which varies greatly;
as far as using TKD as an example of "sound fundamentals", you are talking about a system that is almost two different arts at this point: the average WTF TKD school trains "traditional" stances, does one/three step-sparring, some self defense and those god-awful taeguek forms (the art), but then it essentially eschews all of it when it gets into sparring, which it trains almost completely differently, with strong emphasis on a relatively limited number of kics / kicking combos / strategies and minimal hand techniques, designed for the sole purpose of success in Olympic TKD style fighting (the sport); so it's not much of a stretch to see a TKD fighter w/"sound fundamentals" get his asz handed to him in an MMA or "t3h str33t" situation, because the training is pigeon-holed pretty much from the get go (did a little TKD myself, WTF and Moo Duk Kwan, for ~10 yrs., so I have some basis in that as well)

An art cant be traditional unless it has forms....Nope

Most of the Muay Thai in the U.S. isn't traditional because it isn't even Muay Thai. in some cases I barely sure that it is martial arts as we know it. Boxing coaches and BJJERS looking to diversify their business go to a MT camp and get a cert. It is straight toughman kickboxing.

As far as onestep sparring, if you aren't doing a decent amount of it in your own training, you are missing a key element. It is the primary tool that instructors use to develop finesse.




So is WTF TKD a sport or a traditional art? You keep going back and fourth.

[rogue]

WTF TKD is a completely modern sport where the true sports based practitioners can kick a well and often better than most out there. I've played with the good ones and came away very impressed by what damage they could do to me. Impressive athletes. I've also worked out with the bad flippy kick black belt club ones and let's just say was less than impressed that they couldn't hit or take any kind of hit.

[rogue]

As far as onestep sparring, if you aren't doing a decent amount of it in your own training, you are missing a key element. It is the primary tool that instructors use to develop finesse.

Finesse? I've done a lot of one step sparring and still use a variation of it still for beginners and for training some SD situations, but using it to develop finesse? I don't see it.

[taai gihk yahn]

so it basically boils down to semantics and people who think traditional arts have never evolved over the centuries and shouldnt either lol oh boy
well sure, ultimately, the distinction between so-called traditional and so-called non-traditional is arbitrary and relative; for myself, it's not either / or, but rather a continuum; however, if u noticed, I compared contemporary MT to Thai TMA as ontologically analagous to judo / jujitsu or WTF TKD to older Korean "kwans"; if u don't get that, fine, but please don't try your typical m.o. of glibly jumping to unwarranted conclusions, because it's intellectually sloppy;


An art cant be traditional unless it has forms....Nope
hey, I never said it had to be one way or the other, but I stated that many people would say if there weren't forms it's not traditional (just read around the forum for cryin' out loud, you'll see it); please pay more attention to your reading comprehension in the future, because it's tiresome to have to go correct that sort of thing;


Most of the Muay Thai in the U.S. isn't traditional because it isn't even Muay Thai. in some cases I barely sure that it is martial arts as we know it. Boxing coaches and BJJERS looking to diversify their business go to a MT camp and get a cert. It is straight toughman kickboxing.
riiiiight....


As far as onestep sparring, if you aren't doing a decent amount of it in your own training, you are missing a key element. It is the primary tool that instructors use to develop finesse.
riiiight...


So is WTF TKD a sport or a traditional art? You keep going back and fourth.
I don't believe that I have done so; could you please indicate where in my posts I have done this?

[goju]

well sure, ultimately, the distinction between so-called traditional and so-called non-traditional is arbitrary and relative; for myself, it's not either / or, but rather a continuum; however, if u noticed, I compared contemporary MT to Thai TMA as ontologically analagous to judo / jujitsu or WTF TKD to older Korean "kwans"; if u don't get that, fine, but please don't try your typical m.o. of glibly jumping to unwarranted conclusions, because it's intellectually sloppy;

i was merely cutting to the chase so to speak rather than beating around the bush with the topic. I didnt see a need to try to over analyze this discussion as from reading this forum its clear tma practioners cant even agree on what tma is.

The term ( like many others ) is silly to me and ive generally havent done much pondering over what i think it personally means rather im always amused at peoples wild interpretations of it and thus procede to question them about it and watch the nonsensical circle talking wheel of gibberish have a wirl.:D

[Frost]

don't you realize that it's a classic case of exception proving the rule? or something like that...

the point is that, you can occasionally make some of the TMA stuff "work", because it is outside of the usual "rhythm" of MMA; however, if u don't have a solid base in MMA, thai, boxing, wrestling, etc., u won't last long enough to get to the point where u can do that;

game over;

oh yes i do....the problem is when you point this out people ignore it or say its just because the others dont work as hard as they did

Just as they ignore the fact that most of the traditional stuff they did was in their teens, hell i did 4 years of horean martial arts but i dont call myself a TKD guy even they i do the occasional spinning kick and hook kick :)

[HumbleWCGuy]

WTF TKD is a completely modern sport where the true sports based practitioners can kick a well and often better than most out there. I've played with the good ones and came away very impressed by what damage they could do to me. Impressive athletes. I've also worked out with the bad flippy kick black belt club ones and let's just say was less than impressed that they couldn't hit or take any kind of hit.

If I remember correctly, the Rules require that you move someone with a kick to score. In any event the kicks have to be of quality. I am not sure what this guy is talking about with them being so sloppy and bad.

[HumbleWCGuy]

well sure, ultimately, the distinction between so-called traditional and so-called non-traditional is arbitrary and relative; for myself, it's not either / or, but rather a continuum; however, if u noticed, I compared contemporary MT to Thai TMA as ontologically analagous to judo / jujitsu or WTF TKD to older Korean "kwans"; if u don't get that, fine, but please don't try your typical m.o. of glibly jumping to unwarranted conclusions, because it's intellectually sloppy;


hey, I never said it had to be one way or the other, but I stated that many people would say if there weren't forms it's not traditional (just read around the forum for cryin' out loud, you'll see it); please pay more attention to your reading comprehension in the future, because it's tiresome to have to go correct that sort of thing;


riiiiight....


riiiight...


I don't believe that I have done so; could you please indicate where in my posts I have done this?

You are telling yourself a lot of nice stories unfortunately most of what you believe is false. You need to seriously alter your world view. Your definition of traditional is a moving target. If it doesn't work or you deem it to be "fancy" it must be traditional or is it forms that make the difference? So if Anderson Silva goes out and throws a side kick to the knee for an entire fight and uses a side stance is he using TKD or is it Muay Thai? It was effective so I suppose that it has to be Muay thai? What you call traditional is just LARPing. You have decided in your wisdom that Judo isn't traditional and it has forms and all the trappings of tradition. Moreover, I would be concerned about saying that a Judoka has the ability to defend himself outside of a "Judo situation."
You have decided that traditional is bad and whatever is good must not be traditional that smacks of a pretty uneducated view if you ask me.

[Frost]

I would have to see that come out of his mouth.
.[/QUOTE]
Ask and you shall recieve

Bas started karate at 14, left after a few years and restarted in thai at 21, this is from a quote of his from an interview “striking wise I would say that I learned the most at Mean Ho gym in Breda Holland.”

[HumbleWCGuy]

Ask and you shall recieve

Bas started karate at 14, left after a few years and restarted in thai at 21, this is from a quote of his from an interview “striking wise I would say that I learned the most at Mean Ho gym in Breda Holland.”

No link bye the way.
Okay, so what does that mean? Muay thai i better than than Kyokushin. His Muay Thai Instructor was better than his kickboxing instructor? Bas was not mature enough physically and mentally to learn kyo Kushin at the level that he learned MT? Bas Finally committed himself to martial arts when he began studying Muay Thai? Also, are you guys aware that Kyokushin was invented in the mid to late 20th century?

[Dragonzbane76]

So if Anderson Silva goes out and throws a side kick to the knee for an entire fight and uses a side stance is he using TKD or is it Muay Thai?

well considering thai usually doesn't fight from a "side stance" or throw side kicks to the knee (presuming you mean thrusting) I think we can deduce.

[HumbleWCGuy]

well considering thai usually doesn't fight from a "side stance" or throw side kicks to the knee (presuming you mean thrusting) I think we can deduce.

Just wrong. Watch Anderson Silva versus thales leites. Also, if you had a better eye you would also notice that Anderson puts a lot more snap into his kicks than a MT fighter does. Although, as I said, MT is traditional but since people are trying to create a traditional straw man to knock down

[HumbleWCGuy]

oh yes i do....the problem is when you point this out people ignore it or say its just because the others dont work as hard as they did

Just as they ignore the fact that most of the traditional stuff they did was in their teens, hell i did 4 years of horean martial arts but i dont call myself a TKD guy even they i do the occasional spinning kick and hook kick :)

What it really boils down to is the fact that you guys are creating a traditional straw man to knock down. Traditional is your name for anything that you deem. It really has nothing to do with the actual length of tradition which is a key component of traditional.

[Dragonzbane76]

Just wrong. Watch Anderson Silva versus thales leites. Also, if you had a better eye you would also notice that Anderson puts a lot more snap into his kicks than a MT fighter does. Although, as I said, MT is traditional but since people are trying to create a traditional straw man to knock down

you didn't even read what I wrote did you? seriously.

all I stated was MT really doesn't use a "side stance" and you somehow just blew that up into a blimp. really, really, i mean come on, I don't care one way or another is anderson silva takes a dump upside down into his own mouth. I'm not creating a dam thing to knock down just commenting on the fact that MT doesn't have a "side stance per say" they fight out of. So read the next time instead of going off on a tangent.

[Dragonzbane76]

found this on another forum. thought it kinda went with this thread.

any thoughts??


I can define TMA in two words: CULT-MENTALITY.

The glorification of kata is the heart of Bullshido; i.e. they take something crude and primitive, that was simply used as the cheapest method by which a third-world military dictatorship taught H2H combat to legions of illiterate superstitious soldiers, hundreds or thousands of years ago-- and so it became essentially caveman "warrior-rituals--" and these TMA cultists think they've freaking discovered The Ark of the Covenant, i.e. some type of magical Indiana-Jones "lost magical religious-secret'" that exceeds all modern weapons including the H-bomb, just like in the movies.

Hell, you should see the crap that these clueless internet Seagal-fanwankers spew about aikido, because they say "it was designed for war" Yeah, so were the lance, pike and plate armor, but gimme a little bitty .22 pistol anyday against that.

But still, the anti-scientific TMA-cultists go on swilling the kool-aid and chanting the mantra's about how TMA is better than all modern MMA because it's based on "ancient Chinese secret!" but that these Calgon-techniques are "too dangerous to test" (again like the Ark of the Covenant in Indiana Jones is too dangerous to open--when in REALITY, it was just a sort of portable Vatican-in-a-box used by Jews who were lost in the desert for 40 years because Moses wouldn't ask for directions).

In short, TMA's like any cult: i.e. it's a conceit by losers in denial-- including pretend-guru "masters" who pretend to have some great secret, and peer-approval by fellow losers and cultists... both of which are more addictive to losers than crack-cocaine.

And so they sail off into cult fantasy-land, where a "chi-strike" can destroy an M-1 tank.

(CLOSE YOUR EYES! DON'T LOOK, IT'LL DESTROY YOU! :-D

Whatever you think about Penn & Teller, you have to admit they nailed it with regard to TMA-losers, except for expressly naming it as a cult.

[HumbleWCGuy]

you didn't even read what I wrote did you? seriously.

all I stated was MT really doesn't use a "side stance" and you somehow just blew that up into a blimp. really, really, i mean come on, I don't care one way or another is anderson silva takes a dump upside down into his own mouth. I'm not creating a dam thing to knock down just commenting on the fact that MT doesn't have a "side stance per say" they fight out of. So read the next time instead of going off on a tangent.

Therefore, if MT doesn't use a side stance it must be something else. That is why you are just flat out wrong.

The problem isn't my reading. It is the fact that you can't manage to track a point through a thread.

[HumbleWCGuy]

found this on another forum. thought it kinda went with this thread.

any thoughts??

Would you give us a clear definition of what TMA is. I will paraphrase to save you the trouble "It's Kata. No it's ineffective arts. No it's Old. No it's..."

Cult mentality is pretty common in mma gyms. Look on these boards and all you see are Joe Rogan Parrots.

Here are some cultist mma behaviors.
-Every MMA Gym has the figurative magic bullet.
-MMA instructors still don't want you going elsewhere as it cuts into there profits
-MMA gyms sit and talk about every other gym to discourage students from trying something else.


Doesn't it seem kind of contradictory to call one's self a MMAist and yet be so down on other martial arts? For example, I have always strove to take away useful elements from other arts. I never have been concerned that Kuk sool wan is a fraud. I have always tried to understand their training and take what good I could from it. Are you a mmaist or a grappler with half a$$ed kickboxing? That seems like a pretty effective combination, but it is barely MMA in the truest sense.

[Dragonzbane76]

Therefore, if MT doesn't use a side stance it must be something else

haha OK... it must be something else wow got me on that dam...

point? I wasn't trying to make a point in the first place just stating a fact... MT does not usually fight out of a side stance period. nothing else nothing more. don't care if he was doing TKD, picking his nose, flipping it at his opponent, etc. Your the one who blew my statement up into something else.

[HumbleWCGuy]

haha OK... it must be something else wow got me on that dam...

point? I wasn't trying to make a point in the first place just stating a fact... MT does not usually fight out of a side stance period. nothing else nothing more. don't care if he was doing TKD, picking his nose, flipping it at his opponent, etc. Your the one who blew my statement up into something else.

You said that I was just picking out exceptions to prove the rule, but Silva fought TKD nearly the whole fight against TL. In addition, he has been using the same strategy more and more. I have seen some other guys (random under cards) pick up on it as well since UFC has been letting the low side kick happen.

[Dragonzbane76]

Would you give us a clear definition of what TMA is. I will paraphrase to save you the trouble "It's Kata. No it's ineffective arts. No it's Old. No it's..."

in all honesty I don't think anyone has the definition. people pull things "titles" to assertain ownership in some form or another. IMO you can't own something that is just a figurative wording.


Cult mentality is pretty common in mma gyms. Look on these boards and all you see are Joe Rogan Parrots.

agree, to an extent. You have the good with the bad in everything. Same in TMA.


Doesn't it seem kind of contradictory to call one's self a MMAist and yet be so down on other martial arts? For example, I have always strove to take away useful elements from other arts. I never have been concerned that Kuk sool wan is a fraud. I have always tried to understand their training and take what good I could from it. Are you a mmaist or a grappler with half a$$ed kickboxing? That seems like a pretty effective combination, but it is barely MMA in the truest sense.

mma is a rule set in reality not a style. It's a compilation of many things mixed into a melting pot, used by people to fight in a set rule occupation. that is why it will never have a true identity of itself, because those practicing come from a veried background. That is also what makes it great it does not have to conform to TMA standard or "I AM THIS" mentality.

[Dragonzbane76]

You said that I was just picking out exceptions to prove the rule

think you have me confused with someone else?? and i'm the one who can't keep track in a thread? :)

[HumbleWCGuy]

mma is a rule set in reality not a style. It's a compilation of many things mixed into a melting pot, used by people to fight in a set rule occupation. that is why it will never have a true identity of itself, because those practicing come from a veried background. That is also what makes it great it does not have to conform to TMA standard or "I AM THIS" mentality.

MMA is a lack of style in that it is all styles. Calling mma a rule set isn't quite correct. It can be a training method or philosophy on training or blending arts. Competitive mma has a rule set. The term mma or mmaist does not have such a restriction.

[HumbleWCGuy]

think you have me confused with someone else?? and i'm the one who can't keep track in a thread? :)

Yup I have you confused with moo goo gia pan.

[Dragonzbane76]

Yup I have you confused with moo goo gia pan. :confused:

you have me confused with a dish at a Chinese buffet?

[Dragonzbane76]

MMA is a lack of style in that it is all styles. Calling mma a rule set isn't quite correct. It can be a training method or philosophy on training or blending arts. Competitive mma has a rule set. The term mma or mmaist does not have such a restriction.

It can be what ever you wish it to be, but it breaks down to a rule set. Most people see it as such.

[goju]

No link bye the way.


yes id like to see the link as it conflicts with the one i posted previously where bas supposedly claimed he practiced kata

[Frost]

yes id like to see the link as it conflicts with the one i posted previously where bas supposedly claimed he practiced kata

and we have had this discussion before he does kata for breathing/focus he never said it was to help him fight

heres the interview http://www.fightingmaster.com/fighters/rutten/interview.htm

[David Jamieson]

one more time.

tma is not inferior to anything, is lacking nothing and simply is what it is.

Hand to hand is obsolete and not a viable form of anything other than personal pursuit or sport.

Because you can box doesn't make you a bad ass.

everyone is a weakling on the other end of a gun.

why argue about these things? you do it for sport? you do it for personal fulfillment?
It's all good.

[goju]

and we have had this discussion before he does kata for breathing/focus he never said it was to help him fight

heres the interview http://www.fightingmaster.com/fighters/rutten/interview.htm


i never said he did kata to help him fight and you denied he did them at all

i know i tell you this alot but please learn to read.:p



"Bas: Tae Kwon Do 2nd Degree, Kyokushin Karate 2nd Degree, Thai boxing yellow slip (just kidding), Kyokushin All round fighting 5th Degree (I received this after I defeated Takahashi. I didn’t do any test for this).
"

so he was still working on kk karate during his fighting career:cool:

[Frost]

i never said he did kata to help him fight and you denied he did them at all

i know i tell you this alot but please learn to read.:p



"Bas: Tae Kwon Do 2nd Degree, Kyokushin Karate 2nd Degree, Thai boxing yellow slip (just kidding), Kyokushin All round fighting 5th Degree (I received this after I defeated Takahashi. I didn’t do any test for this).
"

so he was still working on kk karate during his fighting career:cool:

or he could have been given the belt after a fight without even training the style, (which happens a fair bit with fighters) we dont know what we do know is that:
a) he said he learned most striking wise training thai and
b) when asked what he would suggest a would be fighter train he replied Free style wrestling, Thai boxing and submissions

take from that what you will

[goju]

or he could have been given the belt after a fight without even training the style, (which happens a fair bit with fighters) we dont know what we do know is that:
a) he said he learned most striking wise training thai and
b) when asked what he would suggest a would be fighter train he replied Free style wrestling, Thai boxing and submissions

take from that what you will

he was clearly still practicing the kata from either kk or tkd or both so its safe to assume he was training other parts of the styles along with his kickboxing and whatever else not just mucking around with forms and recievinga belt for a style he doesnt even train with at all

further simply because the man isnt proclaiming himself to be the holy defender of the karate faith doesnt mean he doesnt train or use the style

so? i would reccomend someone go learn thai over karate or tkd too. its easier to find a decent thai school than it is a karate dojo these days.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Therefore, if MT doesn't use a side stance it must be something else. That is why you are just flat out wrong.

The problem isn't my reading. It is the fact that you can't manage to track a point through a thread.

Yet you argue that Silva is using more Taekwondo than Muay Thai?:confused:

Here is a thought, why do people on this forum, such as you, find it necessary to argue semantics over something so ******ing stupid as what style someone got a particular stance or technique from. It absolutely baffles me the shi**t that gets argued on this forum.

Muay Thai rarely does side stances or side kicks. But the problem is that traditional Muay Thai is somewhat non existent anymore because of the mixture that has been implemented into Muay Thai. Western boxing has been implemented into it heavily in many gyms, as well as side thrust kicks and other more tradiontal kicks from TKD or CMA.

Still yet, it is not a staple of tradional Muay Thai. Watch some of the fights on you tube of Sanda vs. Muay Thai, and you will see the difference in how a side kick is used. I put it in the same category as the tools who claim Sanda is Muay Thai with throws, sorry to say, no it is not! Sanda and Muay Thai share similiarities and often can compete in the other's venues because of this, but anyone with experience should be able to pick out what are staples of Sanda and staples of Muay Thai, especially those who have experience in both arts. But they can and do compete in each other's competitions and share similarities, same can be said for TKD, Kyokushin, and many other traditional arts.

[goju]

Here is a thought, why do people on this forum, such as you, find it necessary to argue semantics over something so ******ing stupid as what style someone got a particular stance or technique from. It absolutely baffles me the shi**t that gets argued on this forum.

what else would people have to do then? be polite to each other?:confused::eek:

[Lucas]

so how long does it take to become a tradition....sheesh.

imo most martial arts are TMA.

if your martial art focuses on fighting....guess what...its traditional. because guess what again.....COMBAT is the primary tradition of martial arts.

so what tradition are we talking about then?

guys who say they are tma but dont focus on fighting are just representing a different tradtition. thats all. sure they are going to suck at fighting. thats part of their tradition LOL.

however it takes all comers. some people just fail to recognize this.

old tradition combat arts strive to be as effective as they can in the scenarios they are training for. self defense, sport, law enforcement, etc.

new tradition combat arts are often a combination of modern methods and old techniques. a lot of these techs have been around many years, the methods of training and implimenting these techs based on what you are training for

dont forget a lot of old traditions also use many modern methods....

dang cannot finish my thought, lunch time!!!

food is way too important!

[HumbleWCGuy]

and we have had this discussion before he does kata for breathing/focus he never said it was to help him fight

heres the interview http://www.fightingmaster.com/fighters/rutten/interview.htm

Breathing is fundamental to fighting last I checked. So is focus in any sense of the term.

[HumbleWCGuy]

and we have had this discussion before he does kata for breathing/focus he never said it was to help him fight

heres the interview http://www.fightingmaster.com/fighters/rutten/interview.htm

Like I figured, "He is very good." It wasn't an endorsement of Muay Thai bye the way. He was complimenting a particular instructor who happened to be a Mt practitioner. Although MT is a fine traditional style.

I thought a lot myself, striking wise I would say that I learned the most at Mean Ho gym in Breda Holland. Cor Hemmers is the teacher there, he is very good. I started learning the basics in Grappling with Chris Dolman in Holland.

FYI Doleman is a Kyokushin 10th degree.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Yet you argue that Silva is using more Taekwondo than Muay Thai?:confused:

Here is a thought, why do people on this forum, such as you, find it necessary to argue semantics over something so ******ing stupid as what style someone got a particular stance or technique from. It absolutely baffles me the shi**t that gets argued on this forum.
.
It is fundemental to highlighting the the stupidity and closed mindedness of the supposed MMAists. MMaist claim to be open minded to the best but all they are interested in is BJJ and half a$$ striking. I am seeking to point out the hypocracy and stupidity of that not that I actually care about Anderson's use of TKD tremendously. Although, his use of TKD and it's influence on the way he does Muay Thai are obvious and merit some discussion if you are into the details of kickboxing technique.



Muay Thai rarely does side stances or side kicks. But the problem is that traditional Muay Thai is somewhat non existent anymore because of the mixture that has been implemented into Muay Thai. Western boxing has been implemented into it heavily in many gyms, as well as side thrust kicks and other more tradiontal kicks from TKD or CMA. Still yet, it is not a staple of tradional Muay Thai. Watch some of the fights on you tube of Sanda vs. Muay Thai, and you will see the difference in how a side kick is used. I put it in the same category as the tools who claim Sanda is Muay Thai with throws, sorry to say, no it is not!

Traditional MT is alive and well. Throwing in a few boxing hands hardly eats at it's traditional nature. Problem is in the U.S., is that a lot of MT instructors are seminar certified and are really just relying in what they know, boxing, karate, or whatever.




Sanda and Muay Thai share similiarities and often can compete in the other's venues because of this, but anyone with experience should be able to pick out what are staples of Sanda and staples of Muay Thai, especially those who have experience in both arts. But they can and do compete in each other's competitions and share similarities, same can be said for TKD, Kyokushin, and many other traditional arts.

I am not really sure where you are going with this, but it seems to me that you are making yourself out to be the same kind of tool that you are claiming me to be by making a distinction between San Da and MT.

[Dragonzbane76]

It is fundemental to highlighting the the stupidity and closed mindedness of the supposed MMAists. MMaist claim to be open minded to the best but all they are interested in is BJJ and half a$$ striking. I am seeking to point out the hypocracy and stupidity of that not that I actually care about Anderson's use of TKD tremendously. Although, his use of TKD and it's influence on the way he does Muay Thai are obvious and merit some discussion if you are into the details of kickboxing technique.

and it is fundemental to highlight the stupidity and closed mindedness of the supposed TMA's. I'm not a huge advocator of the mma elitest. I can see where you are coming from in pointing out that mma is an overall compilation of things. If you are a TMA or an MMaist there are stupid people in both worlds. We could go on for days and hundreds of threads about the chi blasting dojo's and superiority complex of most TMA's. And we could go on for days and hundred of threads about the tapout wearing bada$$ mentality most mma gyms share. You see it on both sides of the street.

all styles/art/whatever share many characteristics with differing flavors it doesn't take a genius to figure out.

[HumbleWCGuy]

and it is fundemental to highlight the stupidity and closed mindedness of the supposed TMA's. I'm not a huge advocator of the mma elitest. I can see where you are coming from in pointing out that mma is an overall compilation of things. If you are a TMA or an MMaist there are stupid people in both worlds. We could go on for days and hundreds of threads about the chi blasting dojo's and superiority complex of most TMA's. And we could go on for days and hundred of threads about the tapout wearing bada$$ mentality most mma gyms share. You see it on both sides of the street.

all styles/art/whatever share many characteristics with differing flavors it doesn't take a genius to figure out.

We can definitely agree on that. The funny part is when we get the old chi ball thrower groupies who become born-again mmaists. LOL. From one extreme to the other.

A lot of these discussions get pretty annoying and boring. People with sense just get caught in the middle.

[Hardwork108]

found this on another forum. thought it kinda went with this thread.

any thoughts??



I can define TMA in two words: CULT-MENTALITY.

The glorification of kata is the heart of Bullshido; i.e. they take something crude and primitive, that was simply used as the cheapest method by which a third-world military dictatorship taught H2H combat to legions of illiterate superstitious soldiers, hundreds or thousands of years ago-- and so it became essentially caveman "warrior-rituals--" and these TMA cultists think they've freaking discovered The Ark of the Covenant, i.e. some type of magical Indiana-Jones "lost magical religious-secret'" that exceeds all modern weapons including the H-bomb, just like in the movies.

Hell, you should see the crap that these clueless internet Seagal-fanwankers spew about aikido, because they say "it was designed for war" Yeah, so were the lance, pike and plate armor, but gimme a little bitty .22 pistol anyday against that.

But still, the anti-scientific TMA-cultists go on swilling the kool-aid and chanting the mantra's about how TMA is better than all modern MMA because it's based on "ancient Chinese secret!" but that these Calgon-techniques are "too dangerous to test" (again like the Ark of the Covenant in Indiana Jones is too dangerous to open--when in REALITY, it was just a sort of portable Vatican-in-a-box used by Jews who were lost in the desert for 40 years because Moses wouldn't ask for directions).

In short, TMA's like any cult: i.e. it's a conceit by losers in denial-- including pretend-guru "masters" who pretend to have some great secret, and peer-approval by fellow losers and cultists... both of which are more addictive to losers than crack-cocaine.

And so they sail off into cult fantasy-land, where a "chi-strike" can destroy an M-1 tank.

(CLOSE YOUR EYES! DON'T LOOK, IT'LL DESTROY YOU! :-D

Whatever you think about Penn & Teller, you have to admit they nailed it with regard to TMA-losers, except for expressly naming it as a cult.

LOL!

Did you get this from Bullshido? LOL!

If you did, then that would be ironic, as that site itself is a cult of meat heads who worship the one single mysterious neuron, that seems to be floating eternally all over the place in that site. Some of these cultists are also known as "Moaists"...LOL!

No one has seen this mysterious neuron but rumor has it that the knucklehead who sees it first, will gain the ability to think.:D

PS. If you did not get it from Bullshido then the MA world is in a lot more trouble than it thinks it is.....LOL!

[Lokhopkuen]

other than TYPING?:D:D

[Yum Cha]

...The funny part is when we get the old chi ball thrower groupies who become born-again mmaists. LOL.


not naming any names.....LOL...

[Dragonzbane76]

LOL!

Did you get this from Bullshido? LOL!

If you did, then that would be ironic, as that site itself is a cult of meat heads who worship the one single mysterious neuron, that seems to be floating eternally all over the place in that site. Some of these cultists are also known as "Moaists"...LOL!

No one has seen this mysterious neuron but rumor has it that the knucklehead who sees it first, will gain the ability to think.

PS. If you did not get it from Bullshido then the MA world is in a lot more trouble than it thinks it is.....LOL!

you hadn't posted in awhile... was hoping for a car wreck or something... can't be that lucky I guess.

[Tringsh]

Can we please ban the ridiculous use of the word "aliveness". Please?

Training without a specific outcome as a goal is training for trainings sake. If you're looking to be a kata champ then your training should reflect that, if it's to lose weight then it should reflect that, if it's to be a door kicker then it should reflect that.

Training for training's sake is something many, maybe most, people do as they find the actual training enjoyable. And while it's not a scientific study I notice those folks tend towards TMA. This doesn't make TMA inferior unless you use the training with a goal in mind that it doesn't support.

Very well put!

It's amazing the amount of BS that gets flung around this forum just because someone thinks that the style they practice is better than someone elses. :rolleyes:

The only martial artists I have a problem with is incompitant teachers that con their students into beleiving what they learn in class will save them if they get into an uncontrolled life threatning situation. Those people are going to get someone put in hospital.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

It is fundemental to highlighting the the stupidity and closed mindedness of the supposed MMAists. MMaist claim to be open minded to the best but all they are interested in is BJJ and half a$$ striking. I am seeking to point out the hypocracy and stupidity of that not that I actually care about Anderson's use of TKD tremendously. Although, his use of TKD and it's influence on the way he does Muay Thai are obvious and merit some discussion if you are into the details of kickboxing technique.

I see. My bad, I misunderstood what you were saying.


Traditional MT is alive and well. Throwing in a few boxing hands hardly eats at it's traditional nature. Problem is in the U.S., is that a lot of MT instructors are seminar certified and are really just relying in what they know, boxing, karate, or whatever.

I think the problem also lies in the fact that it has been advertised to death that Muay Thai is the ultimate striking art. It is a great art, but that does not mean other arts are not valid and produce good fighters. The BS about a six month Muay Thai guy beating a black belt in TMA can definetly be untrue. At a gym I used to visit and spar at a guy with 1 year in Muay Thai sparred a 5 year ITF Taekwondo guy and thought he would dismantle him. Needless to say, the ITF guy toyed with him the first round and completely destroyed him the second round, the MT guy was pretty humbled by the experience and said afterwards that he had a new respect for TMA.



I am not really sure where you are going with this, but it seems to me that you are making yourself out to be the same kind of tool that you are claiming me to be by making a distinction between San Da and MT.

LOL, I see your point. In my opinion styles don't matter as much as skill and it is the person that makes the style great, not the other way around.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Every activity that is "outside the norm" has the potential for "cult mentality" or "pack mentality: if you prefer and sport combat arts are no different, MMA in particular because it is still in its infancy.
That said, cult mentality is not what makes anything ineffective or effective.
People and training methods do that.
Some TMA traning methods are ineffective when used inproperly and some are outdated while others have been "rediscovered" as the next great things ( kettlebells for example).
Fact of the matter is TMA are lacking in somethings just as modern sport systems are and RBSD systems are and the major thing that they lack is developing what they don't do:
In the case of TMA- they don't do ENOUGH training with/VS different systems and with enough "freestyle full contact".
In the case of Sport arts, they are narrowly focused on competition and while they train at a higher level, their training tends to be to "narrow minded".
In the case of RBSD systems, they suck generally and are the WORSE of the bunch !
:p

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Every activity that is "outside the norm" has the potential for "cult mentality" or "pack mentality: if you prefer and sport combat arts are no different, MMA in particular because it is still in its infancy.
That said, cult mentality is not what makes anything ineffective or effective.
People and training methods do that.
Some TMA traning methods are ineffective when used inproperly and some are outdated while others have been "rediscovered" as the next great things ( kettlebells for example).
Fact of the matter is TMA are lacking in somethings just as modern sport systems are and RBSD systems are and the major thing that they lack is developing what they don't do:
In the case of TMA- they don't do ENOUGH training with/VS different systems and with enough "freestyle full contact".
In the case of Sport arts, they are narrowly focused on competition and while they train at a higher level, their training tends to be to "narrow minded".
In the case of RBSD systems, they suck generally and are the WORSE of the bunch !
:p


SJ, in the case of TMA vs different systems, at what point do you think things started to go wrong? As far as competitions, I started training in the early 90's and than point fighting tournaments were different than what they evolved into. There were almost always a variety of schools and styles (Karate, Kung Fu, Taekwondo, Kenpo, ect. ect.) Yes, it was the BS start and stop of point fighting, but contact was much harder and you did not get points for tapping someone, you scored for solid contact on someone. I used to see brutal KO's all the time at these tournaments, especially in the brown and black belt divisions. Now if you throw a strike and it doesn't land six inches from them you get disqualified.

Concerning competition and/or testing yourself against someone from another style, which is what I always considered competitions to be, where did it all start to go wrong?

[Dragonzbane76]

Every activity that is "outside the norm" has the potential for "cult mentality" or "pack mentality: if you prefer and sport combat arts are no different, MMA in particular because it is still in its infancy.
That said, cult mentality is not what makes anything ineffective or effective.
People and training methods do that.
Some TMA traning methods are ineffective when used inproperly and some are outdated while others have been "rediscovered" as the next great things ( kettlebells for example).
Fact of the matter is TMA are lacking in somethings just as modern sport systems are and RBSD systems are and the major thing that they lack is developing what they don't do:
In the case of TMA- they don't do ENOUGH training with/VS different systems and with enough "freestyle full contact".
In the case of Sport arts, they are narrowly focused on competition and while they train at a higher level, their training tends to be to "narrow minded".
In the case of RBSD systems, they suck generally and are the WORSE of the bunch !


Kinda what I stated to HWCguy. Also one of the reasons I posted that clip up from the other forum. I'm not BJJ/MMA nutriding actually the opposite in case, getting some people to try and see that this happens on both sides of the street and that neither side is "clean" by any measure. For every tapout wearing egotist there is an opposite TMA's with a narrow focus and mythical supersition belief system.

[goju]

other than TYPING?:D:D

online nitpicking has replaced gong sau:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Kinda what I stated to HWCguy. Also one of the reasons I posted that clip up from the other forum. I'm not BJJ/MMA nutriding actually the opposite in case, getting some people to try and see that this happens on both sides of the street and that neither side is "clean" by any measure. For every tapout wearing egotist there is an opposite TMA's with a narrow focus and mythical supersition belief system.

Because people naturally suck and they know this so anything that makes them feel special, they will nutride.

[Northwind]

As with anything, only the individual's beliefs, practices, etc. are the right one.

[KC Elbows]

I'm not BJJ/MMA nutriding actually the opposite in case, getting some people to try and see that this happens on both sides of the street and that neither side is "clean" by any measure.

A legitimate kung fu guy who keeps it real and trains to use it is loathe to be backed up in these arguments by the larpers.

A legitimate mma guy often loves being backed up by his larpers, and is among the last to point out that they are larpers.

Just saying.

[Lucas]

guys that practice old or new tradition asian fighting arts that train to be realisitc hate the chi blasting larpers just as much as anyone else....

people who cannot make the distinction between these guys and legitimate martial artists suck fat donkey ballz

[Hardwork108]

guys that practice old or new tradition asian fighting arts that train to be realisitc hate the chi blasting larpers just as much as anyone else....

people who cannot make the distinction between these guys and legitimate martial artists suck fat donkey ballz.

One of the best posts I have read in recent months!

"Fantasy fu-ists" are disliked by all combat oriented real TCMA-ists. That is a fact, just like the existance of a a valid Internal approach is a fact too.

The problem is that the Modernists label any methodology that is above their heads as "fantasy-fu", and that is where the arguments start.

[Hardwork108]

A legitimate mma guy often loves being backed up by his larpers, and is among the last to point out that they are larpers.


Also, for some reason, legitimate MMA guys love to post (Larp) in legitimate KUNG FU Forums...:confused:

[KC Elbows]

Also, for some reason, legitimate MMA guys love to post (Larp) in legitimate KUNG FU Forums...:confused:

2 relevant groups:

1) mma guys with legitimate tma experience as well,

2) guys standing on group 1's nuts.

Group 2 talks a lot about how they take a modern approach to their tma, but cannot voice what that approach is in any way shape or form that includes tma at all comprehensively. Their focus is always others, always based on an erroneous idea that they are owed explanations, and even valid martial statements by them are little more than repeating things they don't truly know. They're perpetual beginners who, like in all styles, have a bad habit of feeling important based on what they train in, end of story. Group 1 knows they are exactly that, but don't generally grasp that the support of group 2 prevents real conversation that will move kung fu forward, because they will never take part to a great extent in it, but just look for the people they are arguing with and argue.

Group 1 alone can help move kung fu in positive directions, group 2 not only cannot, but cannot help but stymie any attempt by group 1 to do so as long as group 2 is not shown to be uninformed, overrated, and immature.

[thelegend731]

I agree with what most people have said so far, especially #2. TMA has almost completely dissolved. But that is only for its own survival.

And in order to adapt to the cutting edge of martial arts, mma was introduced. I see MMA as the next logical step and is a necessary adaptation into a continually watered down tma society.

[Yum Cha]

The only martial artists I have a problem with is incompitant teachers that con their students into beleiving what they learn in class will save them if they get into an uncontrolled life threatning situation. Those people are going to get someone put in hospital.

Nice stance, but of course you are including most teachers that teach women and children.

I think perhaps we need to reconsider that not all TCMA guys are fighters, and that's why they train, to learn to defend themselve as best they can, not to compete against full-on athletes trained in ring fighting.

A good teacher gives each student what they need. It may be simply physical confidence, or attitude. I know teachers that have chilled out street fighting punks.

Essentially, this is a character in TCMA, totally consistent with its mandate, and embraced.

But, from my experience, there are non-fighters in MMA and BJJ schools as well.

I think, as with an MMA school, there are the fighters, and the others, who aren't quite in the same category on that front.

[Dragonzbane76]

But, from my experience, there are non-fighters in MMA and BJJ schools as well.

I think, as with an MMA school, there are the fighters, and the others, who aren't quite in the same category on that front.

Like I stated there are good and bad on both sides of the street. Most people on here have a traditional background. If you are into martial arts in the least I think most people develop an ego. No one likes to be told that what they are doing is "crap" especially if you have been doing it for a long time. I think the TMA's are morphing into the mixture and will continue to do so. Those whom hang onto the past are just stagnet and will not grow with what they are promoting. I think it healthy to change and learn new stuff from the many great arts that are out there. But that's just my opinion.

[YouKnowWho]

There is a big difference between TCMA approach and MMA approach. In TCMA approach, people force themselves to be restricted by their style. In MMA approach, people pick up skill from many styles and fight the way they like to fight. IMO, MMA guys have more open mind than the TCMA guys.

What do you do if 2 TCMA styles have conflict principle? For example, In Taiji system, you are not suppose to use your own force but borrow your opponent's force (I strongly disagree with this even if I train Taiji myself). In SC system, you believe that your strength can defeat your opponent's 10 best techniques. If you train both Taiji and SC then which guideline will you follow?

Also In SC when you circle around your opponent, you move your back foot first and your front foot follow (so you won't cross your legs). In Bagua, when you circle around your opponent, you move your front foot first (you cross your legs) and you back foot follow. If you train both SC and Bagua then which guideline will you follow?

The MMA guys won't have such problem. They select whatever that fit their need and they can't care less about principle from any style.

Most of the TCMA guys that I know, they had trained more than 5 different TCMA styles. In their mind, they think exactly like MMA guys.

People had critized me that I always look at thing from SC (or Longfist) point of view, and never from Taiji point of view. Actually I only look at thing from "striking art" point of view, or from "throwing art" point of view, and never from any style point of view.

Should I call myself TCMA guy or MMA guy?

[Yum Cha]

You have to agree, the average MMA bout is tough.

The average TCMA bout is less tough.

Accepted however, there are TCMA guys that fight MMA rules.

How or why did the TCMA fighting lose its 'reality' I guess?

Historically, we all pretty much know the drill, going back to Chuck and the early contact circuit, Bruce demonstrating in pads at the Parker tournament.....

It took a long time to get to the blood sport level of MMA.

The TCMA community used to have tournaments in Sydney. Taped squares on a sprung wood floor, local Sifu's as judges. Club v Club. It went on for years. San Da rules. A few knock outs, a few more TKOs. Some clean style bouts, some messy slugfests.

A number of things brought these to an end in the early 90's..

Boxing commission intervention
- Rings required
- Ambulance
- Doctors
- increased liability insurance
- bigger gloves
- headgear

Kickboxing Clubs
- Purpose trained sport fighters
- Generic styles

Basically, under the kickboxing rules, the kickboxing schools raised the bar in the fighting, and the government raised the price of the event.

The masters lost control, and you can guess the rest.

Now, the kickboxers certainly came in at the top, but they didn't walk over the top TCMA fighters at the time, not by a long shot. Chen Yong Fa's CLF has always had good fighters, Leung Cheung's Yau Kung Mun and Chan Chuk Fe's Double Dragon as well. The Jim Fung Wing Chun and Chan Hak Fu Pak Hok schools would get an occasional winner in.

The kickboxers basically eliminated the aspiring fighters and average guys having a go.

The issue here is not as much skill, as raising the conditioning bar. And we know how important conditioning is.

So, without drawing any conclusion, what does this say? I think its an average kind of tale.

There is a big cost of entry if you want to regularly compete in full contact, physically speaking. No problem with that. And, willing to recognise its elite nature.

But, dayum, its just part of the whole.

[Yum Cha]

Like I stated there are good and bad on both sides..

See, I think its just different, not good or bad.

Good or bad is up to the individual to assign to their own pursuit.

But, yea, we're on the same page.

[Dragonzbane76]

Most of the TCMA guys that I know, they had trained more than 5 different TCMA styles. In their mind, they think exactly like MMA guys.

same. most of the people i know that have done that as well think outside the "box." Seems that the more you learn the less you are restricted. But like Yum stated as well and I think it comes down to the person l and how much they want to hold onto something.

I know coming up in the traditional side of things with pai lum and hung gar we were taught rigid guidlines that were to be followed. Looking back on it now after all these years I think that it was good and bad, it's been said many times here but there is a lot that mma can take from TMA's and a lot TMA's can take from mma. In the end it's up to the person.

[Yum Cha]

There is a big difference between TCMA approach and MMA approach. In TCMA approach, people force themselves to be restricted by their style. In MMA approach, people pick up skill from many styles and fight the way they like to fight. IMO, MMA guys have more open mind than the TCMA guys.

What do you do if 2 TCMA styles have conflict principle? .... which guideline will you follow?

The MMA guys won't have such problem. They select whatever that fit their need and they can't care less about principle from any style.

Most of the TCMA guys that I know, they had trained more than 5 different TCMA styles. In their mind, they think exactly like MMA guys.

Should I call myself TCMA guy or MMA guy?


I don't agree with this argument, about restricting. It takes one strike to knock a man down. The question becomes, which one? Everybody talks about the restriction of studying a single style, but not about the rewards.

It shows what people are familiar with, for sure.

You talk about conflicting training, well, I don't have that issue. Are their gaps in my style, sure, can I fill them? I reckon to a reasonable level...

The same conflicting principle applies to MMA. Nobody gets in there and walks the circle, front or back leg first, its incompatible with keeping your a$$ from getting handed to you....

I really get the feeling everybody want's a rule book, a one-size-fits-all measure of how "good" you are, and it just doesn't exist.

Martial arts travels with the man, not the style. Great styles have been made by great men who took what they knew and recombined it throughout the history of MA. Gracie, Cheung Lai Cheun, Chan Heung, etc...

I know too many Mixed Martial Artists who are simply martial artists with short attention spans....:D

[YouKnowWho]

Nobody gets in there and walks the circle, front or back leg first,

Not talking about circle walking, but which leg will you move first if you want to step to your opponent's right (or left) side? Your natural response may depend on your daily training.

[Yum Cha]

All the wishy-washy ness of this thread goes away if you simply say,

TCMA Fighters are Lacking compared to TCMA fighters.

And here's the answer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EY7lYRneHc

[wutymes]

Traditional martial arts takes more time to develop, assuming it's not garbage training. It's really that simple. I really enjoy the fact that many people are interested in Chinese martial arts, but to be brutally honest, if you are expecting results comparable to MMA in normal training time, you shouldn't even bother.

Either that, or you should go to the basics. You've probably heard this, but the basics are more difficult than the advanced routines. Most of the time, you are using the basics. Stuff like MMA or boxing technically trains the basics more than TMA, although the principles are usually watered down or much less complicated, they are STILL basics. Holding your position, shifting your weight, putting full power in a punch- all scientific stuff that boxers especially focus on. Many people like to accomplish the look of traditional martial arts, the feeling, the history, but they forget all about these simple things that actually matter more. If you don't have good root, for example, you are no better than a stick dancing in the wind.

there's no debate. Just misunderstanding. Like the above poster said, everyone chill.

[Frost]

Like I figured, "He is very good." It wasn't an endorsement of Muay Thai bye the way. He was complimenting a particular instructor who happened to be a Mt practitioner. Although MT is a fine traditional style.

I thought a lot myself, striking wise I would say that I learned the most at Mean Ho gym in Breda Holland. Cor Hemmers is the teacher there, he is very good. I started learning the basics in Grappling with Chris Dolman in Holland.

FYI Doleman is a Kyokushin 10th degree.

yep and he learned grappling from doleman not striking and grappling was always his weakest area anyway....and which part of ," striking wise I would say that I learned the most at Mean Ho gym in Breda Holland" doesnt sound like an endoremsent of thai and that gym to you?

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Traditional martial arts takes more time to develop, assuming it's not garbage training. It's really that simple. I really enjoy the fact that many people are interested in Chinese martial arts, but to be brutally honest, if you are expecting results comparable to MMA in normal training time, you shouldn't even bother.

Either that, or you should go to the basics. You've probably heard this, but the basics are more difficult than the advanced routines. Most of the time, you are using the basics. Stuff like MMA or boxing technically trains the basics more than TMA, although the principles are usually watered down or much less complicated, they are STILL basics. Holding your position, shifting your weight, putting full power in a punch- all scientific stuff that boxers especially focus on. Many people like to accomplish the look of traditional martial arts, the feeling, the history, but they forget all about these simple things that actually matter more. If you don't have good root, for example, you are no better than a stick dancing in the wind.

there's no debate. Just misunderstanding. Like the above poster said, everyone chill.


Please explain to me how boxing and MMA techniques are watered down compared to CMA techniques:confused: I absolutely have to hear this answer. Also, this garbage about taking 2 decades to become proficient in CMA is just that, garbage. Hate to tell you bub, someone sold you a load of sh**it. I have some beachfront property in Pennslyvania if you are interested.:D

[Frost]

Evans Jackson UFC 114? Rashad drops into a horse stance, leans over, flicks the jab, and goes in and scores a takedown. He does it a few times and it is something that he does fairly regularly. Both are pretty standard monkey tactics if you are talking about realistic monkey. If you are talking Paul E. Zink fantasy monkey, IDK. When I teach basic southern kung fu we teach a monkey stance and perform exactly the same techniques as Rashad. It's all about throwing the opponent off with something unorthodox, scoring a cheep takedown because they don't change levels with you. And back to standard tactics.

just because it looks like a tactic you have seen used in monkey kung fu doesnt mean it is just a monkey tactic or thats where he got it from, changing levels under a guard is standard in MMA you cant say he uses monkey style when hes never trained it

One of fedors most used takedowns in pride was an overhand right into a high double or single leg, choyleefut guys could look at it and say hey thats sow choy lama guys might say its a kupt choy, but he has never done either of those styles

rodney king teaches his fighters in south africa to hit the upper cut with the little figer facing the opponent not the back of the fist so it slides up the opponents chest in close, looks like a pow choy variation i have seen, but he has never done choyleefut

Paul daley teaches a monkey punch on the ground, its a hammer fist with body weight behind it, the body movement and strike reminds me of the first move out of the seven steps of yungling, but he has never studied southern dragon in his life

if someone has never studied a style how can you say what they do validates that system?

[Frost]

Please explain to me how boxing and MMA techniques are watered down compared to CMA techniques:confused: I absolutely have to hear this answer. Also, this garbage about taking 2 decades to become proficient in CMA is just that, garbage. Hate to tell you bub, someone sold you a load of sh**it. I have some beachfront property in Pennslyvania if you are interested.:D

its a story told to people to sifus who cant teach guys to fight, basics from any style can be learned in months, and whilst it takes years to master if you cant get someone good enough to be able to defend themselves in under a year you shouldnt be teaching. Do you think that when guys in ancient china ran security/escort businesses they could afford to take years to train new employees, that the secret societies could afford years of training before going out and fighting.....no they had them out there in months.

As for boxing or judo being watered down its the same old baseless arguement thrown at the arts by people who cant prodices good fighters but still want to keep stringing along students

[sanjuro_ronin]

Traditional martial arts takes more time to develop, assuming it's not garbage training. It's really that simple. I really enjoy the fact that many people are interested in Chinese martial arts, but to be brutally honest, if you are expecting results comparable to MMA in normal training time, you shouldn't even bother.

Either that, or you should go to the basics. You've probably heard this, but the basics are more difficult than the advanced routines. Most of the time, you are using the basics. Stuff like MMA or boxing technically trains the basics more than TMA, although the principles are usually watered down or much less complicated, they are STILL basics. Holding your position, shifting your weight, putting full power in a punch- all scientific stuff that boxers especially focus on. Many people like to accomplish the look of traditional martial arts, the feeling, the history, but they forget all about these simple things that actually matter more. If you don't have good root, for example, you are no better than a stick dancing in the wind.

there's no debate. Just misunderstanding. Like the above poster said, everyone chill.

What you are basically stating is that TCMA are inferior to MMA and such because they take too long to work effectively.
There is no watering down in sport combat systems in regards to principles and what works.
Anyone that has ever been hit by a left hook of a skilled boxer and thinks it was "waterdown" needs to have their head examined after they wake up from being KO'd.

[sanjuro_ronin]

As for boxing or judo being watered down its the same old baseless arguement thrown at the arts by people who cant prodices good fighters but still want to keep stringing along students


Sport arts use what has been proven over and over to work in their venue, in other words, they hold true to the correct traditionalist mindset far more than the majority of "TMA".

[David Jamieson]

its a story told to people to sifus who cant teach guys to fight, basics from any style can be learned in months, and whilst it takes years to master if you cant get someone good enough to be able to defend themselves in under a year you shouldnt be teaching. Do you think that when guys in ancient china ran security/escort businesses they could afford to take years to train new employees, that the secret societies could afford years of training before going out and fighting.....no they had them out there in months.

As for boxing or judo being watered down its the same old baseless arguement thrown at the arts by people who cant prodices good fighters but still want to keep stringing along students

I think that somewhat you are projecting.

Proficiency comes with time and practice. No, it shouldn't take years to become a proficient fighter. You don't need much of an education and you don't need to be smart to be a fighter, you basically need to be willing to fight and the rest is details really. Just look at the very best fighters along with all the fighters that are out there. The greater majority aren't that skilled, but what they have that most people don't is the will to fight.

as for ancient china... :rolleyes: lol. Who knows what went on. I'm sure "security" was a hodge podge. some pros, some ex-army, some business men who studied and practiced warring arts etc etc. More or less the same as today.

Boxing is the art of striking with the hands.

Judo is the art of throwing and holding.

neither is watered down, they are what they are as defined by their rule-sets for competition for the most part. they can certainly be adapted for street fighting and you can certainly use the dirty moves in that respect.

the part that takes time is stamina and conditioning and ability to be hit.
second to that is to be able to hit properly.
third to that is mental toughness, that will to go on even when you are half beaten already. This is and will always be the MOST important part of any fighter.

no will = you lose.

and like i said, the rest is details as far as styles and ranges are concerned.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I think that somewhat you are projecting.

Proficiency comes with time and practice. No, it shouldn't take years to become a proficient fighter. You don't need much of an education and you don't need to be smart to be a fighter, you basically need to be willing to fight and the rest is details really. Just look at the very best fighters along with all the fighters that are out there. The greater majority aren't that skilled, but what they have that most people don't is the will to fight.

as for ancient china... :rolleyes: lol. Who knows what went on. I'm sure "security" was a hodge podge. some pros, some ex-army, some business men who studied and practiced warring arts etc etc. More or less the same as today.

Boxing is the art of striking with the hands.

Judo is the art of throwing and holding.

neither is watered down, they are what they are as defined by their rule-sets for competition for the most part. they can certainly be adapted for street fighting and you can certainly use the dirty moves in that respect.

the part that takes time is stamina and conditioning and ability to be hit.
second to that is to be able to hit properly.
third to that is mental toughness, that will to go on even when you are half beaten already. This is and will always be the MOST important part of any fighter.

no will = you lose.

and like i said, the rest is details as far as styles and ranges are concerned.

Agreed on the will to fight, but what is your definition of skilled:confused: Personally I feel someone who is able to do a jab, cross, and hook and knock your block off with it is much more skilled than someone who knows 500 exotic techniques that can make it look good on a compliant opponent, but could never pull it off sparring or in a fight. Just saying.

[David Jamieson]

Agreed on the will to fight, but what is your definition of skilled:confused: Personally I feel someone who is able to do a jab, cross, and hook and knock your block off with it is much more skilled than someone who knows 500 exotic techniques that can make it look good on a compliant opponent, but could never pull it off sparring or in a fight. Just saying.

500 exotic techniques eh. lol I wouldn't know about that guy. I've never met anyone who made that claim or who could actually demonstrate that.

Skill is the last thing. You don't need skill to have will and there certainly isn't anything rocket science about pummeling someone.

So, styles and skill is way less important than people make it. It really is the least important thing in the big picture.

Number 1 is willingness to hit and be hit
Number 2 is actually being able to endure that and to dish it out
Number 3 is refining how you dish that out (skill development)

Number 3 is important, but certainly not the most important.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Skill is subjective, it always has been.
Some people are skilled with little effort, others need more time.
Ones ability to do SOMETHING and do it with as little effort as possible (for them) is skill.
For some that comes easy and for others hard, some it comes quickly and for others it takes longer.
Sure, someone that has been driving for 10 years is a more skillful driver than someone that has been driving for 1 year, unless that 10 year driver sucks.
BUT it doesn't take 10 years to LEARN how to drive or be ABLE to drive a car effectively.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

You mean to tell me you don't know or have trained under someone with the 500 deadly eye poke five finger up the a**ss iron palm def touch dim mak suk cok strikes!?!:eek: Obviously you have never been exposed to "teh realz" TCMA training:D

[ShaolinDan]

If you want to build a serviceable cottage in a simple location, you don't need to spend years studying architecture...that would be a waste of time...
If you want to be able to build unique structures in unique locations, and to teach others how to do so, then it will take you years and years of study before you can begin building.

The same is true for any skill--cooking, painting, writing, fighting...you name it.

What do YOU want to get out of the martial arts? It's not something the rest of us really have much say in.

There are as many martial roads as there are practitioners.


Oh...this is my first post, but I've been 'lurking' here ever since I started studying kung fu (5 years). Thanks to all the knowledgeable posters I've learned from over the years. And sorry Sihing for copying your name... it seemed appropriate.

[Hardwork108]

If you want to build a serviceable cottage in a simple location, you don't need to spend years studying architecture...that would be a waste of time...
If you want to be able to build unique structures in unique locations, and to teach others how to do so, then it will take you years and years of study before you can begin building.

The same is true for any skill--cooking, painting, writing, fighting...you name it.

What do YOU want to get out of the martial arts? It's not something the rest of us really have much say in.

There are as many martial roads as there are practitioners.


Oh...this is my first post, but I've been 'lurking' here ever since I started studying kung fu (5 years). Thanks to all the knowledgeable posters I've learned from over the years. And sorry Sihing for copying your name... it seemed appropriate.

GREAT POST!

Welcome to the forum, and you did it with style, I might add. :)

Your example was perfect and I hope that it helps to enlighten those who see a longer term training requirement as a "weakness" of TCMAs, rather than strength.

[MightyB]

If you want to build a serviceable cottage in a simple location, you don't need to spend years studying architecture...that would be a waste of time...
If you want to be able to build unique structures in unique locations, and to teach others how to do so, then it will take you years and years of study before you can begin building.

The same is true for any skill--cooking, painting, writing, fighting...you name it.

What do YOU want to get out of the martial arts? It's not something the rest of us really have much say in.

There are as many martial roads as there are practitioners.


Oh...this is my first post, but I've been 'lurking' here ever since I started studying kung fu (5 years). Thanks to all the knowledgeable posters I've learned from over the years. And sorry Sihing for copying your name... it seemed appropriate.

The problem is that the arts were passed down from fighting masters. Those masters had a unique perspective based on where they were at when they instructed. I'll use Judo as an example. I have a coach who's in his 70s. He's a former national champion. His perspective and attitude are not unlike TCMA masters of the past. He'll do tai chi for health or yoga. He's calm, he has a lifetime of practical experience... but he's surpassed a physical threshold that only comes from a lifetime of practical experience. To him, there is no strength exerted in technique... he does without thinking... all of that circus mumbo jumbo, he can do. Unfortunately - you cannot teach a newb at the master's level with what works for the seasoned master. You have to teach a newb to fight. Over time comes the introspection. To teach introspection first is putting the cart before the horse.

This is a problem with TCMA.

[ShaolinDan]

Sometimes the cart does come before the horse... what is a wheelbarrow?

Personally I practice in the Shaolin tradition. Self-cultivation comes before fighting...way before. But that doesn't mean Shaolin is no good for fighting.

On the other hand I practice Eagle Claw as well (same teacher). The basics of that style are pure application...

To me it is nice to study a lot of different things, have a lot of different approaches (been doing some tai chi lately too). But that is for me.

I am not in a hurry, I've had way too many injuries to actually want to fight.
To me one of the best things about martial arts training is that it teaches you to carry yourself in a way that discourages conflict. This is the best way to win.


And thanks for the kind welcome HardWork.

[MightyB]

You don't have to fight, but you should train the capacity to fight. ILKMDF does this with his guys. Most don't fight, but he trains them all to have the capacity to fight. Same with YouKnowWho teaching Combat SC, or any legitimate BJJ, Mhuy Thai, or Judo school. Everyone trains the capacity to fight. Not everyone who trains those arts fights. Here's the big scary question... how do you know if you're training in something with the capacity to fight?

[Iron_Eagle_76]

You don't have to fight, but you should train the capacity to fight. ILKMDF does this with his guys. Most don't fight, but he trains them all to have the capacity to fight. Same with YouKnowWho teaching Combat SC, or any legitimate BJJ, Mhuy Thai, or Judo school. Everyone trains the capacity to fight. Not everyone who trains those arts fights. Here's the big scary question... how do you know if you're training in something with the capacity to fight?
Wait for it.................................
http://www.fisherschoicebait.com/prodimages/SuperwormsOpenCan.jpg

[ShaolinDan]

I can't speak for individuals or individual schools, but...

I would think that a history of professional use that extends well over a thousand years (and continues today) would be evidence that TCMA have "a capacity to fight."

[lkfmdc]

I can't speak for individuals or individual schools, but...

I would think that a history of professional use that extends well over a thousand years (and continues today) would be evidence that TCMA have "a capacity to fight."

really? what we definitely have from the "glorious past" is a lot of exaggerated claims which like roaches, run for the corners when the light is turned on

Most people don't seem to realize that even back in China, among the many "masters" there were actually a lot of recreational guys who COULD NOT FIGHT

I just uploaded a pic of some of the old masters from the Toi San association. You will note Chan Tai San and his si-hing Lei Fei San are there. While the coaches/masters frequently "sparred" for fun, they never sparred with Chan Tai San. They avoided him like the plague. Also, Chan Tai San and Lei Fei San both competed in the regional / provincial free sparring championships which had been held 3 years earlier (about) but NONE of the others pictured here did

[ShaolinDan]

Citing individuals that can't fight doesn't say too much about TCMA. Of course there are bad as well as good...
What about all the police officers, soldiers, and generals...weren't they using TCMA, couldn't they fight?

I'm sure you know much more about ancient China than I do...but really, does this make any sense?


P.S. This is why I lurked for so long...I think I was better off just watching the show. Certainly it was safer. Debating a point with lkfmdc is not something I ever thought I'd be dumb enough to do. :)

[lkfmdc]

Citing individuals that can't fight doesn't say too much about TCMA. Of course there are bad as well as good...



Then cite those who COULD fight. But it's hard because first you hear about a "death match" between white crane and Wu Style Tai Chi and then you see said match and it is a slap fest

You hear about deadly "roof top fights" and then you see the footage and it's pathetic

The pic I posted wasn't just some random guys. They were government appointed coaches who made a LIVING teaching martial arts. yet most were not fighters

This is from Lama Pai Sifu




According to CTS and some other Toi San people that I met when I went there a few times....most of these guys were NOT bad ass. They were recreational KF guys, much like we have today. But there are 3-4 guys in this group that were hard c...ore fighters - they fought in a variety of competitions and tournaments. As a matter of fact, most of the guys wouldn't even spar with CTS, not even in practice because it was know that you were just going to get hurt if you worked with him. He didn't always play nice with others. Lei Fei San was 6'2" and CTS's closest friend and training brother. He was like the only guy that CTS could spar with as they both had the same teacher






Debating a point with lkfmdc is not something I ever thought I'd be dumb enough to do. :)



You made a statement, I am only asking you to make the logical extensions and back up the statement. TCMA is supposed to be about fighting, yet we have so little of it. The obvious question? WHY?

[hskwarrior]

Originally Posted by: MightyB

This is a problem with TCMA.

Personally....i see nothing wrong with TCMA.....Its the people that make it a problem.

[lkfmdc]

Personally....i see nothing wrong with TCMA.....Its the people that make it a problem.

oh, don't get me started with PEOPLE

they mess up everything

[sanjuro_ronin]

I would think that a history of professional use that extends well over a thousand years (and continues today) would be evidence that TCMA have "a capacity to fight."

HUGE assumption.
But EVEN if it MAY have been true THEN, it has little to do with the here and now since modern students and teachers are exposed to different "threats" and situations.
TCMA of today are NOT the TCMA of 100 years ago, indeed, some "modern" CMA are probably far more like those 200 or 300 years ago.
I suggest a reading of Brian Kennedy's works, both of them.

[MightyB]

What about all the police officers, soldiers, and generals...weren't they using TCMA, couldn't they fight?

I'm sure you know much more about ancient China than I do...but really, does this make any sense?


We do modern KF. My personal belief is that the warring states period stuff is so distant from what we call kung fu, that it's not even funny.

I believe that KF was probably mostly about spear and broadsword and shield work and formation exercises back in the day and had very little to do with individualized routines and empty handed stuff that we see today. And- I'd venture to guess that the real old school stuff was probably closer to Samurai Ju Jitsu than Wushu.

[lkfmdc]

HUGE assumption.
But EVEN if it MAY have been true THEN, it has little to do with the here and now since modern students and teachers are exposed to different "threats" and situations.
TCMA of today are NOT the TCMA of 100 years ago, indeed, some "modern" CMA are probably far more like those 200 or 300 years ago.
I suggest a reading of Brian Kennedy's works, both of them.

Sanjuro, I am attempting to subliminally suggest something, now do it :D

[lkfmdc]

But back on topic ;)

Want to talk about Police? Well, in Taiwan, at the police college, they did SHUAI JIAO and the way they did it was more MMA than TCMA by far

[Lucas]

But back on topic ;)

Want to talk about Police? Well, in Taiwan, at the police college, they did SHUAI JIAO and the way they did it was more MMA than TCMA by far

now the next question; is that a return or a continuation to the way sj should be trained anyways? do you think (aside from new modern equipment and sciences) its too far removed from the way people trained historically during the development of wrestling traditions? in otherwords is it just 'teh realz' tma?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sanjuro, I am attempting to subliminally suggest something, now do it :D

Must...post....pic...
http://jebote.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/perfect-argentinian-big-ass-41-1.jpg

[Lucas]

im glad we have sanjuro here to keep life in perspective and to keep us focused on the truly important things

:D

[lkfmdc]

now the next question; is that a return or a continuation to the way sj should be trained anyways? do you think (aside from new modern equipment and sciences) its too far removed from the way people trained historically during the development of wrestling traditions? in otherwords is it just 'teh realz' tma?

Despite certain "authorities" who post on internet forums ;) the reality is that in the past TCMA involved a lot of practice of basics and a lot of physical conditioning

"forms" have been a very recent evolution, certainly the idea of having more than one or two core forms is a very recent evolution (or rather DE evolution)

The idea of "sparring" was limited by a false sense that things were so "deadly" you couldn't use them "live" but that was already going out of favor by the turn of the 20th century as TCMA came into contact with boxers for example.

There isn't one simple answer to why fighting was hijacked for the "new age" feel good chi blasting tree hugging et al but that has been the continuing direction since the 1940's at least

[sanjuro_ronin]

Just wanted to add the commercialisim may be PART of the problem, but as the works of Brian has shown us, it was always part of TCMA so it can't be "all" of the problem.

[lkfmdc]

Just wanted to add the commercialisim may be PART of the problem, but as the works of Brian has shown us, it was always part of TCMA so it can't be "all" of the problem.

Let's start a list of some of the sources of the problem(s)

1. Practiced by social groups who had little education

2. Practiced by social groups who the gneral population deemed unacceptable and dangers = need to cultural assimilation

3. Praciced by social groups who had no qualms about "coning" and ripping people off

4. Practiced by social groups who also mixed in religon/superstition/"magic" into what they did

5. Orignal intentions not often recognized. How much of the "tradition" is yogic or designed for "cultivation" or as exercises to complement fighting but not as fighting

6. How much of the "tradition" is also linked to street performance, Chinese opera, etc

7. How much of the tradition was "hidden" due to feudal views such as "my pai vs your pai"

8. How much of what we accept today as "tradition" is really BS passed on by charlatans that the uneducated public never realized were bambooziling us

I mean, just to start

[Lucas]

Despite certain "authorities" who post on internet forums ;) the reality is that in the past TCMA involved a lot of practice of basics and a lot of physical conditioning



this is what i was taught and ive always believed. cultural traditions (and larpers) aside, cma that does its physical practices are going to be pretty similar to mma. sure some things will be different based on what you are training for and what the coaches know and impliment. also a lot of cma not being well rounded on the ground will create a different training routine, which imo doesnt really matter as long as the material that is being trained is done so in a realisitc manner. the student just has to take it upon themselves to fill their holes.

so at what point is there a real distinction between what is modern martial arts, vs traditional martial arts (larpers not included).

its almost at the point that you dont want to tag the tcma bundle onto realistic training because of the pre concieved ideas that are attached to that label.

its weird.

[Northwind]

And then there are those of us who hear all of this...
And will continue to honor the old ways...

[goju]

Must...post....pic...
http://jebote.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/perfect-argentinian-big-ass-41-1.jpg




lol at the link name "perfect argentinian big ass"

[David Jamieson]

Let's start a list of some of the sources of the problem(s)

1. Practiced by social groups who had little education

2. Practiced by social groups who the gneral population deemed unacceptable and dangers = need to cultural assimilation

3. Praciced by social groups who had no qualms about "coning" and ripping people off

4. Practiced by social groups who also mixed in religon/superstition/"magic" into what they did

5. Orignal intentions not often recognized. How much of the "tradition" is yogic or designed for "cultivation" or as exercises to complement fighting but not as fighting

6. How much of the "tradition" is also linked to street performance, Chinese opera, etc

7. How much of the tradition was "hidden" due to feudal views such as "my pai vs your pai"

8. How much of what we accept today as "tradition" is really BS passed on by charlatans that the uneducated public never realized were bambooziling us

I mean, just to start

1. I wouldn't say that arts practiced by shaolin monks are those practiced by poorly educated social groups. regular shmoe stuff? maybe, i don't know.

2. in some cases yes, there was a period, several, where martial artists or pugilists in general were seen as low class. not so today.

3. My teachers were upright people and not into conning others. Although, I'm sure there are indeed groups like that.

4. yes, in many cases that is true. again, not so today though although there are some.

5. I agree. In fact, I would say that much of the yogic & dhayana work is missing from kung fu schools these days.

6. Quite a lot with modern versions of tcma. Especially within the big families.

7. This is common still. silly and pointless, but common anyway.

8. Any newb student hasn't a clue really and often, you will find exactly what it was you were looking for...if you get my inference. Or, people are so comfortable with their stupid, they encourage others to nourish it as well! :)

I would say your list is true, but in not in a blanketing sense.

[lkfmdc]

Read more about Buddhism and monks in China, from a non martial arts source....

[Frost]

And then there are those of us who hear all of this...
And will continue to honor the old ways...

i think the problem is as david and paul have elluded to is no one really knows what the old ways were.....

[Frost]

Despite certain "authorities" who post on internet forums ;) the reality is that in the past TCMA involved a lot of practice of basics and a lot of physical conditioning

"forms" have been a very recent evolution, certainly the idea of having more than one or two core forms is a very recent evolution (or rather DE evolution)

The idea of "sparring" was limited by a false sense that things were so "deadly" you couldn't use them "live" but that was already going out of favor by the turn of the 20th century as TCMA came into contact with boxers for example.

There isn't one simple answer to why fighting was hijacked for the "new age" feel good chi blasting tree hugging et al but that has been the continuing direction since the 1940's at least

As always when you make thoughtout posts it always makes me think cheers :)

i know at least one well known TCMA master here in the UK that had to add sets into his style when he came over from hong kong in order to keep people interested....not too many wanted to spar and practise the basics like he had done

[Northwind]

i think the problem is as david and paul have elluded to is no one really knows what the old ways were.....

Hmmm... I wouldn't quite agree with that.

[lkfmdc]

i know at least one well known TCMA master here in the UK that had to add sets into his style when he came over from hong kong in order to keep people interested....not too many wanted to spar and practise the basics like he had done

I know a guy whose current school is a mc-kwoon and a forms factory but when he came here he had NO forms and only did bare knuckle full contact back home where he came from :eek:

[sanjuro_ronin]

i think the problem is as david and paul have elluded to is no one really knows what the old ways were.....

Actual research shows they were probably more like what we do nowadays then what we see in movies.
Of course, even in movies we see hard training, strength building and lots of fighting so many the movies have something right, LOL !

[David Jamieson]

Read more about Buddhism and monks in China, from a non martial arts source....

Yeah, I do that. But ultimately, even reading all you can falls short of the reality.

Smaller groups of opposition often are more vocal and prolific with their views than what is actually accepted by the majority view.

go figure. lol

[Frost]

I know a guy whose current school is a mc-kwoon and a forms factory but when he came here he had NO forms and only did bare knuckle full contact back home where he came from :eek:

this guy when he came over taught a few sets, lots of sparring and sent guys to fight in every venue (talking the 70's here) , his students really started the kick boxing scene over here ...but as he attracted more and more students less and less wanted to fight so low and behold sets were added, older ones were made longer....and the organisation grew massively

[Frost]

Actual research shows they were probably more like what we do nowadays then what we see in movies.
Of course, even in movies we see hard training, strength building and lots of fighting so many the movies have something right, LOL !

there a reason i suppose choyleefut has its 10 seeds, lama its 8 strikes, 8 throws etc and styles like yungling its 7 basic strikes.....when guys actually fought they trained the basic strikes, conditioned and went and had fights ....my god its old school MMA:eek:

[sanjuro_ronin]

there a reason i suppose choyleefut has its 10 seeds, lama its 8 strikes, 8 throws etc and styles like yungling its 7 basic strikes.....when guys actually fought they trained the basic strikes, conditioned and went and had fights ....my god its old school MMA:eek:

Crazy talk pagan-boy !!

[Northwind]

....my god its old school MMA:eek:

Not exactly.

[David Jamieson]

A lot of forms fairies in china.

forms is NOT a western thing, never was and as far as western combative arts go, still isn't, at least not in the same sense as forms in tcma, tjma or in general tama.

Heck I like to do form! It's interesting and when worked into a workout is ok.

[lkfmdc]

A lot of forms fairies in china.

forms is NOT a western thing,




never said it was a western thing, said it was a relatively recent thing (in history, 200 years is fairly "recent", especially in a civilization with a 5000 year history)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hmmm... I wouldn't quite agree with that.

Hey, if you have more recent info, please share.
Base don the works of Brian and Elizabeth and Meir, there isn't much info at all and what is seems to be of that:
basics
Train hard
good luck in life
;)

[Frost]

Crazy talk pagan-boy !!

i know i know i am a bad man...but its interesting to think you could probably learn all the useful moves in a style in a matter of months and learn how to spar etc in under a year.....and once you were good at one style and had a decent delivery system pick up other systems much quicker......would certainly make keeping students around for years difficult :)

[HumbleWCGuy]

just because it looks like a tactic you have seen used in monkey kung fu doesnt mean it is just a monkey tactic or thats where he got it from, changing levels under a guard is standard in MMA you cant say he uses monkey style when hes never trained it
as never studied a style how can you say what they do validates that system?

I never said that he got it from monkey kung fu. I said most likely he reinvented the wheel. Furthermore, it isn't a technique that I "saw," it is a technique that I train, use, and teach. Therefore, I feel that I am qualified to say the technique that he is using is indeed a monkey technique if I apply my taxonomy to it.

The overriding purpose of my posts in this thread has turned to point out that it is poor form to poo poo TMA when you see a lot of similar if not identical tactics in mma starting to come to the forefront. People can either reinvent the wheel (do it the hard way), or just ask a TMA guy and pick these things up.

The fact that you keep suggesting that I am claiming that Rashad is a monkey kung fu stylist is turning me into a straw man. If that is what you want to do to seem correct, then by all means do so and continue to live in your narrow world.

[lkfmdc]

I have had guys / gals with up to 8 years of TCMA walk into the gym and not be able to hit a heavy bag with any sort of power, years of doing forms in the air. Don't you think that is sort of sad, and more importantly POINTLESS :eek:

It isn't hard to get someone to throw a good punch. And they don't have to be fighters

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vsGW2yRQQE

people asked me how I filmed that, I told them I just turned on teh camera for a few minutes randomly during a regular class

[Northwind]

Hey, if you have more recent info, please share.
Base don the works of Brian and Elizabeth and Meir, there isn't much info at all and what is seems to be of that:
basics
Train hard
good luck in life
;)

Although I do not consider Brian & Elizabeth to be the end all, I agree basics and hard training, which are two things named that we "know", as opposed to the statement I was disagreeing with which said we didn't know. Also, obviously, are the key trainings of the specific system in question.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Although I do not consider Brian & Elizabeth to be the end all, I agree basics and hard training, which are two things named that we "know", as opposed to the statement I was disagreeing with which said we didn't know. Also, obviously, are the key trainings of the specific system in question.

Well, it is a given that Brian and Elizabeth and Meir are not the end all of research into TCMA, but their works to speak for themselves.
Any others you suggest?

[Northwind]

I have had guys / gals with up to 8 years of TCMA walk into the gym and not be able to hit a heavy bag with any sort of power, years of doing forms in the air. Don't you think that is sort of sad, and more importantly POINTLESS :eek:

It isn't hard to get someone to throw a good punch. And they don't have to be fighters

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vsGW2yRQQE

people asked me how I filmed that, I told them I just turned on teh camera for a few minutes randomly during a regular class

1. You have not experienced "all" girls & guys with TCMA experience.
2. Sad. Pointless. No. However, I would agree that they should have had proper power & body mechanics & experience with working on various "toys".
3. Is the logical conclusion upon your statement = TMA inferior or lacking? No.

[Northwind]

Well, it is a given that Brian and Elizabeth and Meir are not the end all of research into TCMA, but their works to speak for themselves.
Any others you suggest?

Nope. Don't get me wrong - I own copies of their works, like them & re-read them.

[bawang]

And then there are those of us who hear all of this...
And will continue to honor the old ways...

u vow to exterminate the hairy ones and restore the ming empire? nice
o wait

[sanjuro_ronin]

Nope. Don't get me wrong - I own copies of their works, like them & re-read them.

As do I and so should any serious TCMA.
But you said:

Hmmm... I wouldn't quite agree with that.

In regards to Frosts post about not really knowing HOW they trained in the old days.
Fact is, outside of those works mentioned that are based on research, we tend to have anecdotes from within certain systems and not much more.

[Northwind]

u vow to exterminate the hairy ones and restore the ming empire? nice
o wait

lol

Too funny :P

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I have had guys / gals with up to 8 years of TCMA walk into the gym and not be able to hit a heavy bag with any sort of power, years of doing forms in the air. Don't you think that is sort of sad, and more importantly POINTLESS :eek:

It isn't hard to get someone to throw a good punch. And they don't have to be fighters

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vsGW2yRQQE

people asked me how I filmed that, I told them I just turned on teh camera for a few minutes randomly during a regular class

Amazing how someone who actually hits something knows how to hit:eek: Even though I still see or hear arguments about how mitt work and bag work is bad for your form and training:rolleyes:

[bawang]

i think the main problem is people turning martial arts into their rice bowl, teaching martial arts become their only way to survive. then it turns "complicated" and slow to learn.

sifus should get a real job and teach kung fu in their spare time

[lkfmdc]

1. You have not experienced "all" girls & guys with TCMA experience.



I trained TCMA more than 30 years. I trained with several well known instructors. I have attended major national and international events. I have seen both public and "closed door" people. I would dare say I have seen as much , if not more, TCMA than 99% of the people on here

Again, where are the TCMA fighters? Where are the guys who got fighting skill doing it the TCMA way?

[Northwind]

In regards to Frosts post about not really knowing HOW they trained in the old days.
Fact is, outside of those works mentioned that are based on research, we tend to have anecdotes from within certain systems and not much more.

We have the things our teachers taught us and what they were taught and so on. We also have another aspect of "art" wherein practitioners throughout the ages tried different training methods (these thing were creations of men - not handed down by gods).

But then again, it's just like lineage, style creep, or say....hmmm...most religions... Unless one was there themselves, experienced it themselves, then one can not say for certain. And even then, when they pass it on - it will be tainted with their own understanding, mindset, body type, experience, etc.

We have what we have, but it is far from nothing.

[David Jamieson]

Amazing how someone who actually hits something knows how to hit:eek: Even though I still see or hear arguments about how mitt work and bag work is bad for your form and training:rolleyes:

lol, really? what kind of frickin moron touts that "logic" :D

seriously though, Ross, except for the chicks that clip looks like this group meet we had in '04 here in TO.

That kind of class is lots of fun and burns lots of calories.
Chicks like the cardio.
Guys dig chicks that like to do cardio.

win / win.

[Northwind]

I trained TCMA more than 30 years. I trained with several well known instructors. I have attended major national and international events. I have seen both public and "closed door" people. I would dare say I have seen as much , if not more, TCMA than 99% of the people on here

Again, where are the TCMA fighters? Where are the guys who got fighting skill doing it the TCMA way?

If you've trained in TCMA as much as this, then why not support it?
Have you truly looked at the stats of 99% of the people on here to ensure your judgement is accurate? I've also trained TCMA the length of time you mention, and for some odd reason I still enjoy & support it...

Again where are the TCMA fighter? Hmmm...Are you one?
There is not a "TCMA way". There are styles, schools, teachers and practitioners, each with different ways of doing things.

[ShaolinDan]

Dave,
Your students have fine form...but I'm not seeing anything I don't see at my traditional school.

I was under the impression that trad. kung fu training involved hitting things. I bet most of the kung fu people on this forum are also under that impression.

I know there are bad schools/students out there, but that doesn't mean that good tcma training is not good ma training.

[HumbleWCGuy]

One of fedors most used takedowns in pride was an overhand right into a high double or single leg, choyleefut guys could look at it and say hey thats sow choy lama guys might say its a kupt choy, but he has never done either of those styles


Right and by my rational that is completely fine. The central point is that there are a number of techniques used in mma that are outside of the "Joe-Generic MMA Guy" structure. Where do you think these came from? Most of the brutal overhands that the Russians like tho throw are likely Kung fu of some sort, or Modified Karate.

When we start to peal away at these things and say, "X isn't generic mma, Muay thai, BJJ, Judo, wrestling, or boxing, we have to consider the alternatives either someone reinvented the wheel or learned it from a traditional style. Now anyone with experience in traditional martial arts and real-time sparring and fighting can look at traditional techniques in the ring and identify them is such irrespective of their source.

Next if we can identify techniques from "traditional" arts that have great ring success why spend so much time throwing a fit every time someone uses the word traditional which has falsely come to be a synonym with bad? If I want to add finesse to my kicking I go to a TKD man. If I want to add some versitilty to my striking I go to a kung fu man. If I want pick up some odds and ends about wrist locks, I go to an Aikido school. If I need ring specific advice, I talk to an mmaist or kickboxer. Your approach is, " I need some advice on X I go to the mma guy." If that is your approach then the best you can ever be is, " Joe-Generic MMA."

[goju]

if there arent enough gung fu fighters out there then its up the gung fu guys to fight or train figthers instead of sitting around going "tsk tsk" and shaking their heads about the state of chinese arts and trying to make up excuse after excuse for why this or that is the way it is.

[bawang]

i was reading dave ross criticis abut forms, then i thought YES YOU ARE RIGHT then i stop doing forms. i make differnce.

[Northwind]

if there arent enough gung fu fighters out there then its up the gung fu guys to fight or train figthers instead of sitting around going "tsk tsk" and shaking their heads about the state of chinese arts and trying to make up excuse after excuse for why this or that is the way it is.

I agree.
And I also friggin love your sig & photo in the sig. Rolls me over! :)
lol

[HumbleWCGuy]

Again, where are the TCMA fighters? Where are the guys who got fighting skill doing it the TCMA way?

Would you go over what the TCMA way is because the whole notion of traditional is somewhat contrived. It seems that people are in the mode of defining traditional as what they don't thing is good and non-traditional as what is generally liked and accepted by the mma crowd.

[MightyB]

I trained TCMA more than 30 years. I trained with several well known instructors. I have attended major national and international events. I have seen both public and "closed door" people. I would dare say I have seen as much , if not more, TCMA than 99% of the people on here

Again, where are the TCMA fighters? Where are the guys who got fighting skill doing it the TCMA way?

Ditto- except change the 30 to 18 years for me.

[bawang]

dave ros i think ur right 100%, but u dont promote kung fu anymore, so its all talk and u cant make any difference. why not b trong and try make change. u can do it.

[lkfmdc]

If you've trained in TCMA as much as this, then why not support it?



Do you know who Lu Xun is? I am just telling people that the house is on fire and it's time to wake up!




Again where are the TCMA fighter? Hmmm...Are you one?



People always miss the basic point, dont' they? Are there people who came out of TCMA that became fighters? YES. Did they become fighters by staying in that world? NO!

All of the major 7 sanshou/san da teams are headed by people who have traditinal backgrounds, but they moved beyond that and their fighters weren't trained the traditional way

A fact no one ever wants to deal with, the entire time NACMAF and the USA WKF ran sanshou, not a single traditionally trained fighter ever beat a "Big 6" fighter

[HumbleWCGuy]

I trained TCMA more than 30 years. I trained with several well known instructors. I have attended major national and international events. I have seen both public and "closed door" people. I would dare say I have seen as much , if not more, TCMA than 99% of the people on here

Again, where are the TCMA fighters? Where are the guys who got fighting skill doing it the TCMA way?

It sounds like it is a large part of what you do but you are seeming to pretend that it isn't. Just because you start hitting focus mitts and bags, doesn't mean that you aren't traditional unless you have completely gotten away from any notion of bare-knuckles fighting and street situations and said that you are strictly a sport school.

[goju]

les yackity yack more punchity punch

problem solved/ end of thread.



"And I also friggin love your sig & photo in the sig. Rolls me over!
lol"

haha thanks

[MightyB]

if there arent enough gung fu fighters out there then its up the gung fu guys to fight or train figthers instead of sitting around going "tsk tsk" and shaking their heads about the state of chinese arts and trying to make up excuse after excuse for why this or that is the way it is.

Do you know how hard it is to find a serious sparring partner in a traditional school? Man- it's like pulling teeth to get one and you can't enter the ring without spending time sparring. That's why we cross train. I live roll every BJJ practice with all shapes and sizes. I randori every Judo practice with all shapes and sizes. It was rare that I could even find one serious sparring partner in TCMA.

[bawang]

i think white kung fu peopl cling to lion dance and forms thinking thats chinese martial culture. chinese martial culture is a way of living and thinking.

also because of a cultural void in their own culture. i think mma fits americna culture and fills that hole

[Frost]

Right and by my rational that is completely fine. The central point is that there are a number of techniques used in mma that are outside of the "Joe-Generic MMA Guy" structure. Where do you think these came from? Most of the brutal overhands that the Russians like tho throw are likely Kung fu of some sort, or Modified Karate.

When we start to peal away at these things and say, "X isn't generic mma, Muay thai, BJJ, Judo, wrestling, or boxing, we have to consider the alternatives either someone reinvented the wheel or learned it from a traditional style. Now anyone with experience in traditional martial arts and real-time sparring and fighting can look at traditional techniques in the ring and identify them is such irrespective of their source.

Next if we can identify techniques from "traditional" arts that have great ring success why spend so much time throwing a fit every time someone uses the word traditional which has falsely come to be a synonym with bad? If I want to add finesse to my kicking I go to a TKD man. If I want to add some versitilty to my striking I go to a kung fu man. If I want pick up some odds and ends about wrist locks, I go to an Aikido school. If I need ring specific advice, I talk to an mmaist or kickboxer. Your approach is, " I need some advice on X I go to the mma guy." If that is your approach then the best you can ever be is, " Joe-Generic MMA."

because techniques arent the issue, training method and the ability to use said techniques are the issue

My approach is i dont care if what you do looks like this or that, please show me it working ......i dont care if you have a technique that looks like fedors overhand right (there are only so many ways a body can move) but i do care if you and the guys you train can use it like he does....otherwise just having the technique is pointless i want to be able to use it, if you have a way to train it and make it functional thats great

[Northwind]

Do you know who Lu Xun is? I am just telling people that the house is on fire and it's time to wake up!


Depends on which one you mean. However yes, I am familiar with a couple of them.



People always miss the basic point, dont' they? Are there people who came out of TCMA that became fighters? YES. Did they become fighters by staying in that world? NO!

All of the major 7 sanshou/san da teams are headed by people who have traditinal backgrounds, but they moved beyond that and their fighters weren't trained the traditional way

A fact no one ever wants to deal with, the entire time NACMAF and the USA WKF ran sanshou, not a single traditionally trained fighter ever beat a "Big 6" fighter

1. Define the term "fighter".
2. Define the term "traditional way".
3. Most TCMA traditionally did have members involved in fighting contests, becoming "fighters", however zero TCMAs were created for the purpose of fighting contests.

[Northwind]

because techniques arent the issue, training method and the ability to use said techniques are the issue

My approach is i dont care if what you do looks like this or that, please show me it working ......i dont care if you have a technique that looks like fedors overhand right (there are only so many ways a body can move) but i do care if you and the guys you train can use it like he does....otherwise just having the technique is pointless i want to be able to use it, if you have a way to train it and make it functional thats great

Then it seems we have no problem.

[Northwind]

i think white kung fu peopl cling to lion dance and forms thinking thats chinese martial culture. chinese martial culture is a way of living and thinking.

also because of a cultural void in their own culture. i think mma fits americna culture and fills that hole

To some point I would agree, here. Most TCMA people do get caught up in the "extras". I like them myself, as they are quite fun. But it's not about just that. Good observation! :)

[David Jamieson]

Do you know how hard it is to find a serious sparring partner in a traditional school? Man- it's like pulling teeth to get one and you can't enter the ring without spending time sparring. That's why we cross train. I live roll every BJJ practice with all shapes and sizes. I randori every Judo practice with all shapes and sizes. It was rare that I could even find one serious sparring partner in TCMA.

It's hard to find people who want to actually spar with intention in any school.
Crap, even in boxing gyms you have white collar slappy slaps. :rolleyes:

What lacks most in a school is the students efforts more often than not.

yeah there's crappy schools run by fatties who dole out the handjobs and light a lot of incense while spouting cryptic nonsense and having you do spaz dance all day.

In my opinion, this is not the majority of schools or most kung fu schools. It is some of them.

Humblew guy, your observation is good.

There are far too many who feel that traditional = bad and non-traditional=good. It's an empty argument really. You can find any ass hat really and point at his crap and make a comparison to your crap and present an argument about why yours is better.

If you purposefully look for the worst possible examples of crap, you indeed will even look that much better.

schools that do nothing but forms without applications...yeah, that sucks. But how many of those are around? Every single school someone shows me has the gear for training proper, weights, heavy bags, matts, etc and also some have lions, dragons, sun toy altars and so on.

cripes, I've been in tcma schools that have full boxing rings set up in them.

It really isn't as bad as it is painted. There are plenty of excellent traditional chinese martial arts teachers and schools out there that will impart to you lessons in how to conduct yourself accordingly in a fight.

there are plenty of excellent modern combative schools that can do that too.

In my opinion, your biggest impediment will always be your own attitude.

[bawang]

im glad kung fu is getting less popular. i dont understand why people think kung fu needs to get popular. with less people in the future maybe we can finally reform and regulate the kng fu comunites. im in this for life

i thik the soft nature of most north american ppls has no place for kung fu. i think traditional muay thai dont teach farang because they saw what happened to kung fu.

[Northwind]

...snip...
In my opinion, your biggest impediment will always be your own attitude.

Nicely done.

[HumbleWCGuy]

because techniques arent the issue, training method and the ability to use said techniques are the issue

My approach is i dont care if what you do looks like this or that, please show me it working ......i dont care if you have a technique that looks like fedors overhand right (there are only so many ways a body can move) but i do care if you and the guys you train can use it like he does....otherwise just having the technique is pointless i want to be able to use it, if you have a way to train it and make it functional thats great

Techniques are what define styles/systems. Do you think that someone says, "That aint TKD becaue they are using focus mitts?" Because training method rarely defines a system. Boxing which is known for it's training method does not become Shotokan because the gym lacks a heavy bag or maybe doesn't do plyometrics.

From the perspective of someone having the ability to apply something. Usually unless you go to a total LARPER school/gym someone there will give you some insight on how to train and apply there core techniques. You can go to any McDojo TKD school and they are going to give you some insight on how to deliver some snappy kicks to the head.

I still call what I teach traditional although there are modern training elements because the techniques that we use dictate it to be traditional. If I wanted to dumb it down so that it would be kind of half-a$$ed on the actual technique front focused almost exclusively on honing the conditioning, I would deem that as modern, but there again it is really the techniques or lack of that make the difference.

[bawang]

To some point I would agree, here. Most TCMA people do get caught up in the "extras". I like them myself, as they are quite fun. But it's not about just that. Good observation! :)

my problem is a lot of kung fu ppl treat it as a joke and a game, even after so much time and money spent. why?
karate gets a lot more respect and is taken seriously. a lot of white karate people learn so many japanese words, some even act japanese and get into their culture.
with kung fu that never happens. i always get the feeling of "hey you ch ink, teach me some funny moves and entertain me"

the guangdong kung fu sifus felt a sense of power and control for the first time in the 60s, but it was a false feeling. their students never respected them, they were just playing with them.

[David Jamieson]

im glad kung fu is getting less popular. i dont understand why people think kung fu needs to get popular. with less people in the future maybe we can finally reform and regulate the kng fu comunites. im in this sh1t for life.

i thik the soft nature of most north american ppls has no place for kung fu.

i'm not glad that seeking kung fu is becoming unpopular. :p

seeking personal kung fu is to cultivate yourself as a better person in my perspective. Fighting aside, the zen, the qigong, and all the other aspects of being a cultured person with capability mentally and physically is a great idea for a path to take through life.

to only want to have victory, to only desire power to dominate? That to me is empty and incomplete and leads to nowhere.

If you think north americans are soft, you are dreaming. This is a fabricated stereotype.

North Americans can and will kick virtually any countries ass in sports or in war. I think that track record is thoroughly established. :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ok, lets put what Dave is saying in simple terms:
How many fighters are out there, in any full contact sport, that still train TCMA as their core?
Or, i that one is too hard, came from a TCMA school?

[Northwind]

my problem is a lot of kung fu ppl treat it as a joke and a game, even after so much time and money spent. why?
karate gets a lot more respect and is taken seriously. a lot of white karate people learn so many japanese words, some even act japanese and get into their culture.
with kung fu that never happens. i always get the feeling of "hey you ch ink, teach me some funny moves and entertain me"

the guangdong kung fu sifus felt a sense of power and control for the first time in the 60s, but it was a false feeling. their students never respected them, they were just playing with them.

Unfortunately I would agree with that for quite a lot of examples. However, there are many exceptions.

When I lived in Singapore, the majority of young people (10 - 30 yr) sought compulsory competitive wushu or easy taiji (as in just form, usually yang and usually modern short form). Chin Woo had a wushu tricks group, which was by far the largest group. Old traditional hung gar - old dudes were giving it away free - and there was only ONE student :( Most lion/dragon troupes were businesses and usually for the poorer people (and me), touched on spiritual stuff, some touched underworld and few were associated with TCMA.

It's a tough time for TCMA for sure.

[Northwind]

Ok, lets put what Dave is saying in simple terms:
How many fighters are out there, in any full contact sport, that still train TCMA as their core?
Or, i that one is too hard, came from a TCMA school?

Or, in simple terms, what TCMA was created for "full contact sport"?

[bawang]

Unfortunately I would agree with that for quite a lot of examples. However, there are many exceptions.

When I lived in Singapore, the majority of young people (10 - 30 yr) sought compulsory competitive wushu or easy taiji (as in just form, usually yang and usually modern short form). Chin Woo had a wushu tricks group, which was by far the largest group. Old traditional hung gar - old dudes were giving it away free - and there was only ONE student :( Most lion/dragon troupes were businesses and usually for the poorer people (and me), touched on spiritual stuff, some touched underworld and few were associated with TCMA.

It's a tough time for TCMA for sure.

they promoting to rich chinese kids in singapore. do u expect soemthing different

Or, in simple terms, what TCMA was created for "full contact sport"?

longfist and wrestling

[Northwind]

they promoting to rich chinese kids in singapore. do u expect soemthing different
LMAO yeah true

[David Jamieson]

Ok, lets put what Dave is saying in simple terms:
How many fighters are out there, in any full contact sport, that still train TCMA as their core?
Or, i that one is too hard, came from a TCMA school?

If you are doing full contact sport, then you are training to the rule set really.

That can be adapted to the street, but where in that sportive combative atmosphere is room for meditation, iron palm development, iron body development, lion dance? dragon dance? classical weapons study?

so the core of tcma? what is that? basics? well, then teh core is indeed kept.

what is the difference between my jab and the sports guys jab? he calls it a jab and i call it yut gi choi. lol he calls it a cross and i call is charp chopi or ping choi, he calls it an uppercut and i call it pao choi, he calls it a piston punch and i call it chum choi.

it's what you are training towards.

in a school like daves, they are training towards what appears to be sanshou/MT fight records and the rest are there in some sort of cardio kickboxing capacity.

It's a bread and butter school too. I doubt that all daves students are bad ass sport fighters, but I don;t doubt that he teaches good stuff to his actuals.

I just don't buy the argument really. It's just a different path and it really isn't better than training kung fu.

Even when I trained under one sifu, if we wanted to compete even in point sparring the whole training methodolgy would change in the months leading up to any sport contest.

you have to train to the rule set. You don't train to play football then join a baseball team.

judo and boxing are totally different in how they train.

wrestling and karate are worlds apart in training.

Chinese martial art and Korean martial art are trained quite differently.

are any of them the less for being different?

If you want to fight, any foundation will do. If all you want to see is the frauds, then that is all you will see. :)

[HumbleWCGuy]

If you are doing full contact sport, then you are training to the rule set really.


That's exactly it. When you train for a competition you throw out anything that isn't allowed for the competition and train just those techniques and work on your fitness.

[bawang]

dave jamieson i disagree ur rong. it would be honor to win modern sports fighting with kung fu. not winning is shameful. i think its wrong to try to justify failure

i think u guys memory might get a little foggy. when ufc was starting and all the kung fu guys were losing, it was humiliating to the kung fu comunity. i wanted to quit kung fu forever

[Northwind]

longfist and wrestling

Not sure what you mean by longfist, as many styles can be considered to have longfist properties, and then you have a main chang quan system, and then some systems with sub-styles with changquan in the name.

I guess the point I was hinting at was basically what David J. is saying up above (I am not as good of a writer as he ;)

[bawang]

long fist was a sport. u make circle in a dirt then throw haymakers at each other. u go bare shirt to discourage wrestling. sometimes u wear leather protectors. people bet money on u and winner gets prize moeny. if u kick the balls and poke eyes bad things happen to u after the fight

[MightyB]

My goal is to get back to TCMA.

I enjoy it, I enjoyed the company of my Sifu and his friends, and my KF brothers are still my bros. But, I want it to be real... meaning, when I get back to 7*, my 7* will not be debated on it's effectiveness. It will work, that's why I do all of the cross training. So, when I get back to 7*, I'll have significant rank and training in BJJ. I already have significant rank in Judo. I'm working out with Thai Boxers (and getting my arse handed to me) but, when I get back to TCMA... their t'ain't going to be nuth'n phony or flowery 'bout it. That's my goal. At that point, I can worry about internal development, I can give a $hit less about forms accumulation, and I won't take any $hit from a forms collector about wether or not my 7* is authentic. I'll actually be able to do what they pretend to do in their forms against real live resisting opponents. That's what it means to be a stylist... do what you say you can do, no BS.

[David Jamieson]

dave jamieson i disagree ur rong. it would be honor to win modern sports fighting with kung fu. not winning is shameful. i think its wrong to try to justify failure

i think u guys memory might get a little foggy. when ufc was starting and all the kung fu guys were losing, it was humiliating to the kung fu comunity. i wanted to quit kung fu forever

so long as you think of "kung fu" as a martial art and not a broad term for personal self actualization, then you will struggle with the idea.

it's not justifying failure.

I think your memory is foggy. Exactly how many "kung fu fighters" can you name from the original UFC's? Who are all of them that lost? Do you understand the ruleset of UFC and who helped to develop it to what it is now?

Do you think the UFC is the pinnacle of modern martial arts? If so, really? lol It's the most marketed, but it is not the best there is in martial arts. I still to this day prefer pro boxing and see it as much more interesting to watch as it has less meat cans doing a slugfest.

Do you actually think a kung fu practitioner is going to walk into a ring and stand in a horse stance and start doing shaw brothers crap in an effort to say "I won with Kung Fu"

dude, that's just an error in thinking. Not to mention, you have stated you don't train anything so how could you possibly even know or even begin to understand?

I think part of Dave's rants about his school and kungfu is also serving his own marketing. :) I mean, he's not stupid and a man's gotta eat right. Why would you send people to someone else? Would you not prop yourself up as the one who has the goods?

Not saying his stuff is bad, just saying I do not agree with the idea that traditional kungfu training is bad. Where did Dave's foundation come from anyway? Who's that guy he keeps going on about? Why does he take so much pride in his traditional training? You don't honestly think he doesn't value that stuff do you? lol

He's adapted it and taken from it what he can use to teach others and he's added some new ways to it and so on.

In my opinion, Dave is still a kung fu guy who happens to run a heavily mma flavoured gym. He probably doesn't teach forms so much, but he also probably would if someone wanted to pay him to do it. I don't know, I can't speak for the guy and can only go on what he himself puts out there.

You need to visit a kungfu school and tell the sifu he doesn't know what he's doing and then you can get the direct Chan answer for yourself! :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think you guys may have missed the point.
Does Karate have guys that fight full contact, in ANY venue?
Yes.
Does Judo?
Yes
Does TKD?
Yes
Does MT?
Yes
Just a few examples.
Does TCMA?
Well, yes it does!
Not counting sanda that is desigend for a specific ruleset we have:
Cung or course and we have/had Max Chen from Willam CC Chen's Taiji, we have Matt Polley and I am sure there are more.
BUT, the fact is, IF TCMA were doing all the stuff they say they are doing "just like" the sport combat guys are ( pad work, hard sparring, etc) why are MORE not competing in ANY full contact event?

Perhaps there aren't as many doing the training after all.

[David Jamieson]

I think you guys may have missed the point.
Does Karate have guys that fight full contact, in ANY venue?
Yes.
Does Judo?
Yes
Does TKD?
Yes
Does MT?
Yes
Just a few examples.
Does TCMA?
Well, yes it does!
Not counting sanda that is desigend for a specific ruleset we have:
Cung or course and we have/had Max Chen from Willam CC Chen's Taiji, we have Matt Polley and I am sure there are more.
BUT, the fact is, IF TCMA were doing all the stuff they say they are doing "just like" the sport combat guys are ( pad work, hard sparring, etc) why are MORE not competing in ANY full contact event?

Perhaps there aren't as many doing the training after all.

Well I can't speak for others, but I don't compete because I'm 46 years old and have no desire to do so. I train because i enjoy the art. I enjoy sharing it and watching it carry on in someone else. I find it gratifying when someone "gets it" and makes it their own and you can see their own flair in the work whatever it is. When someone gets solid and can hit well. When someone gets fit and can last and move and land on moving targets.

san shou/ san da IS the full contact venue for TCMA at this time. Why is it that anyone would want to take that away? It's the answer to the age old question that everyone keeps asking!

You train for the venue. modern combative sports are what they are. They don't even come close to the scope of what achieving personal kung fu is though.

[MightyB]

I think you guys may have missed the point.
Does Karate have guys that fight full contact, in ANY venue?
Yes.
Does Judo?
Yes
Does TKD?
Yes
Does MT?
Yes
Just a few examples.
Does TCMA?
Well, yes it does!
Not counting sanda that is desigend for a specific ruleset we have:
Cung or course and we have/had Max Chen from Willam CC Chen's Taiji, we have Matt Polley and I am sure there are more.
BUT, the fact is, IF TCMA were doing all the stuff they say they are doing "just like" the sport combat guys are ( pad work, hard sparring, etc) why are MORE not competing in ANY full contact event?

Perhaps there aren't as many doing the training after all.

Kung Fu San Soo had a good run in the 80's with Kathy Long and Don the Dragon Wilson winning kickboxing championships. Then again, San Soo was always looked down upon by the so-called traditionalists as being watered down Choy Le Fut.

[Northwind]

long fist was a sport. u make circle in a dirt then throw haymakers at each other. u go bare shirt to discourage wrestling. sometimes u wear leather protectors. people bet money on u and winner gets prize moeny. if u kick the balls and poke eyes bad things happen to u after the fight

lol well that is completely different from what I was thinking of, and I have absolutely zero idea about this one.

[Frost]

That's exactly it. When you train for a competition you throw out anything that isn't allowed for the competition and train just those techniques and work on your fitness.

Nope we dont, lots of guys still worked on defending kicks on the ground even when it wasnt allowed in comp, reason being it was sound self defence stuff.

People trained leglocks and neck locks when they were banned too...again because they can be usefull, nearly all clinch trained fighters i know have done some simulated eye strikes, head butts, running people into a brick wall etc but its just not a BIG part of their training...why because if you have a good delivery system (one that works well under pressure) you can add the self defence/optional extras stuff on top

[David Jamieson]

Kung Fu San Soo had a good run in the 80's with Kathy Long and Don the Dragon Wilson winning kickboxing championships. Then again, San Soo was always looked down upon by the so-called traditionalists as being watered down Choy Le Fut.

In this day and age of marketing, hype and coloured hair, no one wants to give anything out. It seems no one wants to recognize kung fu for the incredible value it holds for each individual who pursues it.

Every single kung fu tourney you go to now has a san da or free style sparring/fighting thing set up.

so, where is it not being brought into sport over and over and over again?

why do people conveniently forget those people who have trained kung fu and who have gone into sport? Or are cops who have used it to subdue perps? or whatever?

I don't get it actually, this whole argument is so fabricated and unreal. It's like two WWE wrestlers arguing. the whole thing is a put on! lol

[Northwind]

...snip...
BUT, the fact is, IF TCMA were doing all the stuff they say they are doing "just like" the sport combat guys are ( pad work, hard sparring, etc) why are MORE not competing in ANY full contact event?


Have you ever considered the idea that not everyone is interested in combat sports?
Must one be interested in it to be considered a "martial artist"?

[bawang]

so long as you think of "kung fu" as a martial art and not a broad term for personal self actualization, then you will struggle with the idea.

in old days u lose a couple fights and ur finished ur school close down. fighting is impoortant mang.


Do you think the UFC is the pinnacle of modern martial arts?
ya

If so, really?
ya


lol It's the most marketed, but it is not the best there is in martial arts. I still to this day prefer pro boxing and see it as much more interesting to watch as it has less meat cans doing a slugfest.
ur rong . a slugfest is manly and strong. most kung fu fights in the past is all slugfest.




dude, that's just an error in thinking. Not to mention, you have stated you don't train anything so how could you possibly even know or even begin to understand?
man wtf? i wake up 5 am every day to train. u lie. LIER


I think part of Dave's rants about his school and kungfu is also serving his own marketing. :) I mean, he's not stupid and a man's gotta eat right. Why would you send people to someone else? Would you not prop yourself up as the one who has the goods?
he shows the goods walks and walk. i respet that.

[Northwind]

I don't get it actually, this whole argument is so fabricated and unreal. It's like two WWE wrestlers arguing. the whole thing is a put on! lol

Agreed. To me it's apples & oranges honestly.

[David Jamieson]

Nope we dont, lots of guys still worked on defending kicks on the ground even when it wasnt allowed in comp, reason being it was sound self defence stuff.

People trained leglocks and neck locks when they were banned too...again because they can be usefull, nearly all clinch trained fighters i know have done some simulated eye strikes, head butts, running people into a brick wall etc but its just not a BIG part of their training...why because if you have a good delivery system (one that works well under pressure) you can add the self defence/optional extras stuff on top

Training mma is often and surprisingly pretty much the same as training kungfu except it doesn't use forms as a method really. Drills are forms yes, but they would be more like what a kung fu person would extrapolate from a long form and then drill it too. Also no weapons in mma.

If you are not training to be a competitive fighter, then there is not a lot of point in training to that end. There is not a need to spar all the time, heck, even competitors don't do that.

You aren't going to find rolling in a kungfu school because that's jj,bjj, or wrestling. There aren't a lot of chinese martial arts that explore that and you have to get it elsewhere, but so what, boxing lessons don't teach you how to wrestle either. If you want to practice in all ranges, then yes, I would say that a sportive combative mma venue is for you. That's the one stop shop.

if you want to study kung fu as well, you can do that too! You just ave to have the time and money to invest.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Nope we dont, lots of guys still worked on defending kicks on the ground even when it wasnt allowed in comp, reason being it was sound self defence stuff.

People trained leglocks and neck locks when they were banned too...again because they can be usefull, nearly all clinch trained fighters i know have done some simulated eye strikes, head butts, running people into a brick wall etc but its just not a BIG part of their training...why because if you have a good delivery system (one that works well under pressure) you can add the self defence/optional extras stuff on top

It sounds like a half a$$ed attempt to be ready against TMA boogy man when there is down time from fight training. LOL

[bawang]

KUNG FU SUX BOO hdsfdgdfg]

[lkfmdc]

so long as you think of "kung fu" as a martial art and not a broad term for personal self actualization, then you will struggle with the idea.

it's not justifying failure.

I think your memory is foggy. Exactly how many "kung fu fighters" can you name from the original UFC's? Who are all of them that lost? Do you understand the ruleset of UFC and who helped to develop it to what it is now?

Do you think the UFC is the pinnacle of modern martial arts? If so, really? lol It's the most marketed, but it is not the best there is in martial arts. I still to this day prefer pro boxing and see it as much more interesting to watch as it has less meat cans doing a slugfest.

Do you actually think a kung fu practitioner is going to walk into a ring and stand in a horse stance and start doing shaw brothers crap in an effort to say "I won with Kung Fu"

dude, that's just an error in thinking. Not to mention, you have stated you don't train anything so how could you possibly even know or even begin to understand?

I think part of Dave's rants about his school and kungfu is also serving his own marketing. :) I mean, he's not stupid and a man's gotta eat right. Why would you send people to someone else? Would you not prop yourself up as the one who has the goods?

Not saying his stuff is bad, just saying I do not agree with the idea that traditional kungfu training is bad. Where did Dave's foundation come from anyway? Who's that guy he keeps going on about? Why does he take so much pride in his traditional training? You don't honestly think he doesn't value that stuff do you? lol

He's adapted it and taken from it what he can use to teach others and he's added some new ways to it and so on.

In my opinion, Dave is still a kung fu guy who happens to run a heavily mma flavoured gym. He probably doesn't teach forms so much, but he also probably would if someone wanted to pay him to do it. I don't know, I can't speak for the guy and can only go on what he himself puts out there.

You need to visit a kungfu school and tell the sifu he doesn't know what he's doing and then you can get the direct Chan answer for yourself! :)

I am about to teach and can't type much longer, but you are wrong. I will get to the details, but you're way off here

[MysteriousPower]

i'm not glad that seeking kung fu is becoming unpopular. :p

seeking personal kung fu is to cultivate yourself as a better person in my perspective. Fighting aside, the zen, the qigong, and all the other aspects of being a cultured person with capability mentally and physically is a great idea for a path to take through life.

to only want to have victory, to only desire power to dominate? That to me is empty and incomplete and leads to nowhere.

If you think north americans are soft, you are dreaming. This is a fabricated stereotype.

North Americans can and will kick virtually any countries ass in sports or in war. I think that track record is thoroughly established. :D


When you mention sports you have a point about North Americans but not when it comes to war. When it comes war it is ONLY the Americans that have the edge. Last I checked Canada had 20 troops combined in both Middle East wars and have never shown their invisible military muscles. One terrorist attack in Canada and I guarantee they will pull their 18 troups out of the Middle East. America is in it for the long run. Do not diminish the achievements of Americans by grouping them with Canadians.

[hskwarrior]

Do not diminish the achievements of Americans by grouping them with Canadians.

DUDE, you really are one of those supremacist's huh? joking or not my first reaction is WOW.......ITS MY MONEY AND I NEED IT NOW!!!!!! (sorry i'm watching a J.G. Wentworth commercial). LMAO

AND.......WEST COAST IS THE BEST COAST

[MysteriousPower]

DUDE, you really are one of those supremacist's huh? joking or not my first reaction is WOW.......ITS MY MONEY AND I NEED IT NOW!!!!!! (sorry i'm watching a J.G. Wentworth commercial). LMAO

AND.......WEST COAST IS THE BEST COAST

Call me what you want. I am sorry if I offended any Canadians. I only meant to put the Canadian military(whatever that is) in its true light. Canadian women are very hot!

[MysteriousPower]

Why are you riding my butt? Still ticked about the word ghetto? Ghettover it!

[David Jamieson]

When you mention sports you have a point about North Americans but not when it comes to war. When it comes war it is ONLY the Americans that have the edge. Last I checked Canada had 20 troops combined in both Middle East wars and have never shown their invisible military muscles. One terrorist attack in Canada and I guarantee they will pull their 18 troups out of the Middle East. America is in it for the long run. Do not diminish the achievements of Americans by grouping them with Canadians.


You are a crackpot. lol

Last you checked?

Check again ass hat. :rolleyes:

[hskwarrior]

Why are you riding my butt? Still ticked about the word ghetto? Ghettover it!

It's time to get off, its gotten to be a bumpy ride. I'm sorry dude, i just got a thing for people who feel their superior in some way. whether you intend to or not, your previous comments did tick me off. but now im just having fun. :D

[hskwarrior]

Oh.....

west coast is still the best coast............:d

[MysteriousPower]

You are a crackpot. lol

Last you checked?

Check again ass hat. :rolleyes:

Obviously when I said Canada has 20 troops I was being sarcastic. I went to wikipedia to help prove my point. "Roughly 2,500-2,830 Canadian Forces (CF) personnel are currently deployed in Afghanistan as part of International Security Assistance Force (ISAF)."

Compared to the amount of US soldiers there that is a tiny fraction. Why degrade me? Because you have no proof that Canada is a military power? There is no proof! When North Korea recently sunk a South Korean ship no one said, "Gee, I hope those brave Canadians with their super military come help us.". Instead of attacking me why don't you pull the wool from in front of your eyes.

[Yum Cha]

Obviously when I said Canada has 20 troops I was being sarcastic. I went to wikipedia to help prove my point. "Roughly 2,500-2,830 Canadian Forces (CF) personnel are currently deployed in Afghanistan as part of International Security Assistance Force (ISAF)."

Compared to the amount of US soldiers there that is a tiny fraction. Why degrade me? Because you have no proof that Canada is a military power? There is no proof! When North Korea recently sunk a South Korean ship no one said, "Gee, I hope those brave Canadians with their super military come help us.". Instead of attacking me why don't you pull the wool from in front of your eyes.

So MP, what you know about soldiering? Or are you just a wanna be talking smack about people who really walk the walk?

[MysteriousPower]

So MP, what you know about soldiering? Or are you just a wanna be talking smack about people who really walk the walk?

We are not even having the same conversation, YC. I am not talking smack about soldiers. I just do not want David to paint the misleading picture that the Canadian military is any comparison to the US's military.