where "Alive" goes wrong

[MightyB]

Since everyone's talking about training with "aliveness", I have an instance where I think it fails TMA and TCMA if people aren't aware of this shortcoming...

Here's my 4 cents worth. It's very easy to fall into a bad style of kickboxing if you think sparring is just getting in there and pounding away. If you aren't being trained by a kickboxer/boxer - don't do that because you need someone to show you how to do that style effectively and you'll develop a lot of bad habits.

What's better IMO is to train your technique spontaneously. In 7* mantis, we have ou lou choi, (or choi sum sau) my spellings off, I know, but it's the only name I have for the technique. Anyway, it's a pluck, control, strike all done as a single motion as a strike counter. It's like the basis for mantis, yet I don't think there's too many people who actually train it well enough to pull it off in a fight. So, I'd advocate that a person should train that move by having someone else just attack him using whatever - the 7* guy's goal should be to find a way to set up Choi Sum Sau. After a few weeks, train a diff technique, and so on until you're reasonably able to use a hand full of "mantis" techniques in a non-choreographed pressure situation. Then spar.

[MysteriousPower]

Since everyone's talking about training with "aliveness", I have an instance where I think it fails TMA and TCMA if people aren't aware of this shortcoming...

Here's my 4 cents worth. It's very easy to fall into a bad style of kickboxing if you think sparring is just getting in there and pounding away. If you aren't being trained by a kickboxer/boxer - don't do that because you need someone to show you how to do that style effectively and you'll develop a lot of bad habits.

What's better IMO is to train your technique spontaneously. In 7* mantis, we have ou lou choi, (or choi sum sau) my spellings off, I know, but it's the only name I have for the technique. Anyway, it's a pluck, control, strike all done as a single motion as a strike counter. It's like the basis for mantis, yet I don't think there's too many people who actually train it well enough to pull it off in a fight. So, I'd advocate that a person should train that move by having someone else just attack him using whatever - the 7* guy's goal should be to find a way to set up Choi Sum Sau. After a few weeks, train a diff technique, and so on until you're reasonably able to use a hand full of "mantis" techniques in a non-choreographed pressure situation. Then spar.


There are so many single hand motions in each style. Would you advocate doing this with every single one of them? Even if you did so for only the important ones it seems like this method would take forever. Agree or disagree?

For example what if I wanted to train crescent kicks. Would I have you attack me with everything in your arsenal and I just do basic blocks with the only attack being my crescent kick? I believe this type of training is good for certain things but not for all. If I was trying to get in on you to throw you than I would have you attack me with your whole army while I tried to deflect and get into grappling range. This method seems to make less sense with boxing drills.

[MightyB]

There are so many single hand motions in each style. Would you advocate doing this with every single one of them? Even if you did so for only the important ones it seems like this method would take forever. Agree or disagree?

For example what if I wanted to train crescent kicks. Would I have you attack me with everything in your arsenal and I just do basic blocks with the only attack being my crescent kick? I believe this type of training is good for certain things but not for all. If I was trying to get in on you to throw you than I would have you attack me with your whole army while I tried to deflect and get into grappling range. This method seems to make less sense with boxing drills.

depends... how many techniques does it take to call it a style? I did mantis for a lot of years before I had to move and then I did Judo. What I learned in Judo is that everyone only has a set number of preferred techniques that they'll fall back on (this is also true for BJJ). So, even though there might be 100 techniques, you only need to be good at a couple for the different situations that you'll encounter. Figure out which ones you want in your arsenal and then train them spontaneously in situations that are as close to where you'd like to use them.

Now using my choi som sau example - I'd allow my opponent to use everything against me and I'd use whatever I had to do to set up the Choi Som Sau. The Choi Som Sau is my goal so I'd disregard all of my successes until I hit that move. In the process, I'd learn how and when to use that move.

[Frost]

Since everyone's talking about training with "aliveness", I have an instance where I think it fails TMA and TCMA if people aren't aware of this shortcoming...

Here's my 4 cents worth. It's very easy to fall into a bad style of kickboxing if you think sparring is just getting in there and pounding away. If you aren't being trained by a kickboxer/boxer - don't do that because you need someone to show you how to do that style effectively and you'll develop a lot of bad habits.

What's better IMO is to train your technique spontaneously. In 7* mantis, we have ou lou choi, (or choi sum sau) my spellings off, I know, but it's the only name I have for the technique. Anyway, it's a pluck, control, strike all done as a single motion as a strike counter. It's like the basis for mantis, yet I don't think there's too many people who actually train it well enough to pull it off in a fight. So, I'd advocate that a person should train that move by having someone else just attack him using whatever - the 7* guy's goal should be to find a way to set up Choi Sum Sau. After a few weeks, train a diff technique, and so on until you're reasonably able to use a hand full of "mantis" techniques in a non-choreographed pressure situation. Then spar.

aliveness doesnt mean sparring and doesnt only apply to sparring thats a misconception

Aliveness as its being understood here involves the three I's

if you follow the process rather than just using the name then you wont have the problems you are eluding to

[MysteriousPower]

aliveness doesnt mean sparring and doesnt only apply to sparring thats a misconception

Aliveness as its being understood here involves the three I's

if you follow the process rather than just using the name then you wont have the problems you are eluding to

Can you please elaborate?

[MightyB]

aliveness doesnt mean sparring and doesnt only apply to sparring thats a misconception

Aliveness as its being understood here involves the three I's

if you follow the process rather than just using the name then you wont have the problems you are eluding to

Exactly.

I just wanted people who haven't been exposed to "alive" type of training thinking that it means simply sparring because then we'd be causing a whole lot more problems in the TCMA world.

[MightyB]

Can you please elaborate?

We're talking about Matt Thornton's approach. Here's an interview http://www.straightblastgym.com/interview03.htm

He has some stuff on Youtube. Look it up.

[Frost]

Can you please elaborate?

Sure aliveness (at least according to matt Thornton the guy who most people point to when talking about aliveness) means working with and against timing, energy (real resistance like you would find in a fight), and motion.

All these require working against an uncooperative opponent, someone who is not feeding you dead energy but who is reacting to you and making you react. If you understand this then even drills, pad work etc can be alive.

The three Is are introduction, isolation and integration

Introduction, for example this is the jab, show the mechanics, show proper formation etc or this is the arm bar from mount, show proper body control, how to finish (tight knees etc) and then get reps in like this.

isolate it, work the jab on the pads, the opponent feeding you energy and motion, moving around you forcing you to react learn timing and motion, isolate sparring so just jab against jab, you limit the weapons used in sparring but you are still sparring, moving reacting of each other etc.

With the arm bar from mount start in the mount and roll, if you miss the arm bar or he escapes start over. You can start off with reduced energy, say 50% and build it up as the opponent gets better but the key is to always have some form of resistance/motion otherwise it’s dead and essentially useless in a fight.

Integrate it; add it in to your sparring and into your overall game.

Step 1 intro should last minutes, step 2 isolate can last most of the class or you can keep coming back to it, step 3 is the end goal. His aregument is that most people in TMA are stuck at step 1

But all drills in step 2 and 3 can be and should be alive. Hope that makes sense

[Frost]

Exactly.

I just wanted people who haven't been exposed to "alive" type of training thinking that it means simply sparring because then we'd be causing a whole lot more problems in the TCMA world.

I sort of knew you got it when i saw that you trained judo...the sports guys do this without thinking

the fact is Matts gym spends most of there time in step 2, isolated sparring from various positions is a big thing with him

[rogue]

Sure aliveness (at least according to matt Thornton the guy who most people point to when talking about aliveness) means working with and against timing, energy (real resistance like you would find in a fight), and motion.

All these require working against an uncooperative opponent, someone who is not feeding you dead energy but who is reacting to you and making you react. If you understand this then even drills, pad work etc can be alive.

The very fact that something is required takes some of the aliveness out of the drill. What defines an uncooperative opponent? What is real resistance like you would find in a fight mean?

"Find the safety flaw in the training", Rory Miller.

[Frost]

The very fact that something is required takes some of the aliveness out of the drill. What defines an uncooperative opponent? What is real resistance like you would find in a fight mean?

"Find the safety flaw in the training", Rory Miller.

real resistance means the opponent is using the timing energy and motion to try to hit you that they would in a real fight, is it a perfect way of training...who knows, but its the best way to learn if you wish to fight with what you are learning.

that is unless you care to share with us another method of learning that you feel is better...........

[SevenStar]

depends... how many techniques does it take to call it a style? I did mantis for a lot of years before I had to move and then I did Judo. What I learned in Judo is that everyone only has a set number of preferred techniques that they'll fall back on (this is also true for BJJ). So, even though there might be 100 techniques, you only need to be good at a couple for the different situations that you'll encounter. Figure out which ones you want in your arsenal and then train them spontaneously in situations that are as close to where you'd like to use them.


Indeed. My judo coaches have said out of all of the throws, pick the 8 you are most comfortable with using - one throw for each direction - and train them repeatedly. you should be able to use those throws instinctively, either singularly or in a combination. These are your bread and butter throws. Out of over 100 throw that I have been taught, 90% of the time, it is one of the 8 I chose. Same with bjj.

someone said it seems less likely this would be done with striking drills, but tyson may be a good example. As short as he was, he knew how to get inside of a man of any height so that he could use his bread and butter - hooks and upper cuts. julio caesar chavez became known for his liver punch. cung le has his scissor kick, etc.

[bawang]

because of movies people dont join kung fu schools to learn fighting. if u train alive ur not gonna be able to make money
teaching mma can make a lot of money. teach kung fu the same way wont

making reforms in kung fu is easy, but u need to give up any ideas and hopes of making a profit. thats the hard part.

[MightyB]

Indeed. My judo coaches have said out of all of the throws, pick the 8 you are most comfortable with using - one throw for each direction - and train them repeatedly. you should be able to use those throws instinctively, either singularly or in a combination. These are your bread and butter throws. Out of over 100 throw that I have been taught, 90% of the time, it is one of the 8 I chose. Same with bjj.


This is probably why my Judo and my BJJ coaches like us to travel to other schools whenever we can. We get too used to the people in our own clubs.

[rogue]

real resistance means the opponent is using the timing energy and motion to try to hit you that they would in a real fight, is it a perfect way of training...who knows, but its the best way to learn if you wish to fight with what you are learning.

that is unless you care to share with us another method of learning that you feel is better...........

I just want to be sure I understand you, are you saying that you and your partner are always using the timing, energy and motion to try to hit each other that you would in a real fight? Are you padded up, stripped down, working one step drills? How are you guys doing what you'd do in a real fight, without it being a real fight and the possible risks that go along with that? Or maybe you guys are just going for broke? Could you clarify what you're all doing? :confused:

[rogue]

I just wanted to hear what Thorton's definition is of Aliveness. The good news is by his definition I train in an alive manner. Differently, but my training meets his criteria. It also doesn't seem like he's trying to recreate a real fight but just parts of what you might encounter. Each drill is pretty darn good, but each has an intentional safety flaw that keeps it from being like a real fight. Nothing wrong with that as long as you know about it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imjmLWj5WCU

Nothing really earth shaking about what he's proposing, but surprising that people either don't do it or make a big deal about doing it.

[Frost]

I just want to be sure I understand you, are you saying that you and your partner are always using the timing, energy and motion to try to hit each other that you would in a real fight? Are you padded up, stripped down, working one step drills? How are you guys doing what you'd do in a real fight, without it being a real fight and the possible risks that go along with that? Or maybe you guys are just going for broke? Could you clarify what you're all doing? :confused:

aliveness is not fighting although fighting is by its nature alive, aliveness is the process you apply to your training in order to be able to make what you do work against a resisting opponent, rolling is alive although its not fighting, its simply the training process used not the end result.

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[Frost]

I just wanted to hear what Thorton's definition is of Aliveness. The good news is by his definition I train in an alive manner. Differently, but my training meets his criteria. It also doesn't seem like he's trying to recreate a real fight but just parts of what you might encounter. Each drill is pretty darn good, but each has an intentional safety flaw that keeps it from being like a real fight. Nothing wrong with that as long as you know about it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imjmLWj5WCU

Nothing really earth shaking about what he's proposing, but surprising that people either don't do it or make a big deal about doing it.

glad you understand it better, its always worth listening to Matt

as he himself says in the video and in preson its not new and its not new to competative sports people, judo wrestling, tennis rugby etc but it was something of a pardym shift for some TCMA guys

[YouKnowWho]

How are you guys doing what you'd do in a real fight, without it being a real fight and the possible risks that go along with that?

You can train "aliveness" without taking too much risk. Here is one way to do it.

You constantly

- move around your opponent (force your opponent to move with you).
- deflect your opponent's forearm (force your opponent to response).
- push (not strike) your opponent's elbow, upper arm, shoulder, neck, side of head, ... (force your opponent to back up, move side way, deflect your push).
- shake your opponent's arm, shoulder, neck, ... (use shocking to disturb your opponent's balance)
- sweep/sticky/hook/scoop/cut/sharp your opponent's leg (force your opponent to shift weight from one foot to another).

Your intention is not trying to hit your opponent hard or take your opponent down, but to give your opponent a chance to feel "constant pressure". Since the push is safer than the punch, and the sweep/sticky/hook/scoop/cut/sharp are also safer than the kick, it should still remain a safe training environment.


My judo coaches have said out of all of the throws, pick the 8 you are most comfortable with using - one throw for each direction - and train them repeatedly.
Not sure how the number "8" came from.

If you want to train just a set of moves, it may be a good idea not to train "redundant" moves. A front heel kick and front toe push kick can be considered as "redundant" IMO. In the throwing art, the best way is to start from the 4 sides and 2 doors.

When you and your opponent both have right side forward (uniform stance), you can use your leading right leg to attack the outside of your opponent's leading right leg (1st side), You can also use your right leading leg to attack the inside of your opponent's leading right leg (2nd side). You will need at least 1 move for each side. Since it's difficult to reach your opponent's back left leg, also it may be too far for you to use your back left leg, you don't have to worry about those situations.

When you have right side forward and your opponent has left side forward (mirror stance), you can use your leading right leg to attack the inside of your opponent's leading left leg (3rd side). You can also use your leading right leg to attack the outside of your opponent's leading left leg (4th side). You will also need at least 1 move for each side. Since it's difficult to reach your opponent's back right leg, also it may be too far for you to use your back left leg, you don't have to worry about those situations.

You will also need one move when you are inside of your opponent's front door, and also one move when you are behind your opponent.

If you divide your throwing skill this way, you will need at least "6" moves to be able to handle all situations. You may need some moves when you and your opponent are in "cross stance" as well.

[rogue]

You can train "aliveness" without taking too much risk. Here is one way to do it.

You constantly

- move around your opponent (force your opponent to move with you).
- deflect your opponent's forearm (force your opponent to response).
- push (not strike) your opponent's elbow, upper arm, shoulder, neck, side of head, ... (force your opponent to back up, move side way, deflect your push).
- shake your opponent's arm, shoulder, neck, ... (use shocking to disturb your opponent's balance)
- sweep/sticky/hook/scoop/cut/sharp your opponent's leg (force your opponent to shift weight from one foot to another).

Your intention is not trying to take your opponent down but to give your opponent a chance to feel "constant pressure". Since the push is safer than the punch, and the sweep/sticky/hook/scoop/cut/sharp are also safer than the kick, it should still remain a safe training environment.

I'm all for not getting injured but I don't think you can approach training for a dangerous high risk activity with safety first in the training. It has to be there but if the training is too safe then you're not properly preparing yourself for the real thing. Honestly, it's a conundrum I've been trying to solve as injuries seem to cost me more these days.

[YouKnowWho]

The "fear" factor is 2 edges sword. It may scare beginner away. It may also give beginner false confidence. How much is the right amount is an art and not science.

[Yum Cha]

Indeed. My judo coaches have said out of all of the throws, pick the 8 you are most comfortable with using - one throw for each direction - and train them repeatedly. you should be able to use those throws instinctively, either singularly or in a combination. These are your bread and butter throws. Out of over 100 throw that I have been taught, 90% of the time, it is one of the 8 I chose. Same with bjj.

someone said it seems less likely this would be done with striking drills, but tyson may be a good example. As short as he was, he knew how to get inside of a man of any height so that he could use his bread and butter - hooks and upper cuts. julio caesar chavez became known for his liver punch. cung le has his scissor kick, etc.


More gold from Seven*

We call them Keys. The more you learn, the simpler it gets. For some reason, 8 seems to be the magic number. I figured the Ba qua, but....

[Dragonzbane76]

I'm all for not getting injured but I don't think you can approach training for a dangerous high risk activity with safety first in the training. It has to be there but if the training is too safe then you're not properly preparing yourself for the real thing. Honestly, it's a conundrum I've been trying to solve as injuries seem to cost me more these days.

It's a fine line to get the razors edge you want. This has always been the "edge" of training that everyone looks for to get the most realistic without blowing out your body. The thing is everyone is built different and everyones body can take different amounts of punishment. So this makes for different training for many people.

My thoughts have always been to get as close as you can to the real thing without debilitating injury. There is always going to be injury when going hard, you just have to know the right amount that "your" body can take and communicate with your partner during these times about the intake and how you feel and how much you believe you can take. and even then it's still a very fine line.

[San Soo Sifu]

My judo coaches have said out of all of the throws, pick the 8 you are most comfortable with using - one throw for each direction - and train them repeatedly.


Not sure how the number "8" came from.


For some reason, 8 seems to be the magic number. I figured the Ba qua, but...

I am pretty sure that SevenStar is talking about the eight directions; as in the eight points on a compass... N-S-E-W-NE-NW-SE-SW.

Since Kodokan Judo is a Japanese martial art in origin, I included a diagram in Japanese. I hope I am correct in reading SevenStar's intentions. :)

[YouKnowWho]

I am pretty sure that SevenStar is talking about the eight directions; as in the eight points on a compass... N-S-E-W-NE-NW-SE-SW.

Since Kodokan Judo is a Japanese martial art in origin, I included a diagram in Japanese. I hope I am correct in reading SevenStar's intentions. :)

I see. Thanks for the explaination. IMO, you may tran all 8 directions by using the same move or different moves. I like 4 directions training instead. If I don't train duplicate moves then 1 rep can give me 4 different moves, 2 reps can give me 8 different moves, and 3 reps ... So 4 directions will be no different from 8 directions.

[SevenStar]

I am pretty sure that SevenStar is talking about the eight directions; as in the eight points on a compass... N-S-E-W-NE-NW-SE-SW.

Since Kodokan Judo is a Japanese martial art in origin, I included a diagram in Japanese. I hope I am correct in reading SevenStar's intentions. :)

correct. one throw for each possible direction.

[rogue]

Wow, that's 360 throws!:eek:

[SoCo KungFu]

Wow, that's 360 throws!:eek:

We live in 3 Dimensional space so technically we don't have to stop there :D

[tiaji1983]

Boxers train one movement to counter one movement, ie, an example would be you throw a hook, and they lift the elbow to block exposing the ribs. You do the same move 2 times, then fake the hook and kick the ribs... This example is to show that if you train the same counter to one movement, your setting yourself up for failure because you will project.

I used an example about basketball in a previous post, 2 groups were shooting hoops, one practiced in real time, one meditated and pictured themselves making baskets. The one that pictured making baskets, made the most baskets. In other words sparring against an actual opponent is not necessary.

Keeping your movements alive means being able to change. Find the moves in your form to counter the counters. An example would be what if I do needle at the bottom of the sea and lock the opponents wrists, but he resists? Then I use fan through back. But then what if he counters with an elbow? Well he would have to be off balance, so grab the elbow and use pull down... etc. Also you never look down when you practice forms or fight, because your Qi goes down and your opponent has the opportunity to attack.

Pushing hands practice helps you feel the direction of the opponents attack, the amount of power, and allows you to learn how to counter it by feeling and softness. It also helps you root an attack. If the opponent pushes, you sink down, if the opponent pulls, you sink to the rear leg to stop the movement. Then you counter in the direction they want to go.

When all the movements in the form happen naturally, and can change with an ever changing situation, then your art truley is alive...

[bawang]

An example would be what if I do needle at the bottom of the sea and lock the opponents wrists, but he resists? Then I use fan through back. But then what if he counters with an elbow? Well he would have to be off balance, so grab the elbow and use pull down... etc. Also you never look down when you practice forms or fight, because your Qi goes down and your opponent has the opportunity to attack.

all i have to do is activate the golden bell field/pre-nullity sphere ,and your patethic taichi would be rendered useless.
combined with the sacred jade amulets and the power of inner lion seal u cannot posibly defeet me; the matreya smiles upon me. dare you challenge the dharma of the chosen one?

.... although maybe i wouldnt use magical charms on the grounds of fairness; as it violates the codes of the jianghu. that would depend on how much you had offended my temple.

i would still consider inviting the south mountain ancient immortals to possess my body and grant me superhuman strength and instant but temporary knowledge of every single style of martial arts in the world, since it is their decision not mine to grant me celestial favor, it is thus fair in the grand scheme of things.
i would open the earth gate but not open the heaven gate since i am a merciful man.

you need to play the forms more often and contemplate your metaphysical inferiorty and lack of martial knowledge. you do not deserve to even gaze upon the elder gods. you will never comprehend the beauty of the tao. ever. EVER!!!


wot r u wearing? r u sexy womans

[tiaji1983]

lol :confused:

[YouKnowWho]

An example would be what if I do needle at the bottom of the sea and lock the opponents wrists, but he resists? Then I use fan through back. But then what if he counters with an elbow? Well he would have to be off balance, so grab the elbow and use pull down... etc.
From your description, you do have good combat knowledge. Not everybody know the "needle at the bottom of sea" can be used as wrist lock. The combo that you have described is very logical. You are right that your opponent's best counter to against your wrist lock is to bend his elbow, and then smash that elbow at your chest. The only thing is if you allow your opponent to do so, your wrist lock may not be complete enough.

Of course your opponent can bend and raise his elbow to release the pressure that you put on his wrist. If at the same time, you change your palm edge pressing from vertical downward to horizontal side way, you can still apply the same pressure on your opponent's wrist even if he bends his elbow. If your opponent tries to turn his body to release more pressure from you, you can change your palm edge horizontal side way into backward pulling (toward you) and force his arm to be straight. This is called "三把腕子(San Ba Wan Zi) - 3 continuous wrist locks" that already contain 3 changes just in a simple move (another reason that I love TCMA).

Not saying that your combo won't work, but saying that you may be able to continue your "wrist lock" and not have to change into "palm strike to the face" if you don't want to.

[tiaji1983]

Thank you sir for showing that not every movement has 1 application for me :)
Needle at the bottom of the sea can be a LOT of things. It can be a throw, a lock, a strike, It can be used for a cavity strike or in some cases to simply deflect a movement, or even can be used to break someones neck. Then if those movements dont work as planned, theres always another counter, and its a continuous circle until you either win the exchange or lose the exchange.

[Frost]

Boxers train one movement to counter one movement, ie, an example would be you throw a hook, and they lift the elbow to block exposing the ribs. You do the same move 2 times, then fake the hook and kick the ribs... This example is to show that if you train the same counter to one movement, your setting yourself up for failure because you will project.



no they dont you need to train with boxers before making such a statement, boxers train to evade and counter as quickly as possible, they are just as likely to roll under your hook and smash your ribs as cover up.
and i would love to see someone actually kick the ribs from that close in unless you are talking about a looping punch in which case he'd probably just hit you with a 1 2 and knock you out :rolleyes:

[Frost]

From your description, you do have good combat knowledge. Not everybody know the "needle at the bottom of sea" can be used as wrist lock. .

really, it was one of the first things i was shown, along with all the throws and takedowns from the old yang form which included the fast fajing stuff :confused:

[tiaji1983]

Thank you Frost. I was using that as an example. I know boxes train bobbing and weaving, and they train to go around and under punches. But a lot of boxers, I guess I shouldnt say all cuz that isnt the case, but a lot of them train in a way where they see a specific move, they react in a specific way. I had friends that were boxers, and I seen the way they trained. I saw some that would lift the elbow to cover the side of the head when a hook comes in, and then counter with a left hook or a left cross. I seen boxers that would punch at your foot if you threw a low kick, I seen boxers that would bring thier hands up to the top of the head if they saw a jab coming due to habit with the gloves, and they would do those movements habitually. The point I was trying to make, is if someone has a habitual movement, you can find a weakness and expose it. I was not trying to get technical and say I am a boxer...

[Frost]

Thank you Frost. I was using that as an example. I know boxes train bobbing and weaving, and they train to go around and under punches. But a lot of boxers, I guess I shouldnt say all cuz that isnt the case, but a lot of them train in a way where they see a specific move, they react in a specific way. I had friends that were boxers, and I seen the way they trained. I saw some that would lift the elbow to cover the side of the head when a hook comes in, and then counter with a left hook or a left cross. I seen boxers that would punch at your foot if you threw a low kick, I seen boxers that would bring thier hands up to the top of the head if they saw a jab coming due to habit with the gloves, and they would do those movements habitually. The point I was trying to make, is if someone has a habitual movement, you can find a weakness and expose it. I was not trying to get technical and say I am a boxer...

boxers cover and move, if you haven't trained boxing or spent alot of time sparring in a boxing gym its silly trying to tell people who have what they do or what there faults are

everyone has theories about fighting and how they would beat boxers etc, until you spar full contact with one its just that theory, i thought i could just kick the legs out from under a boxer until i actually tried it. just seeing the way they train isnt much help...

For instance i could see the way a tai chi player trains and just think his hands dont cover his head ill just knock him out...

[tiaji1983]

OK your right, it wasnt fair to say "boxers" in my example based on my personal experiences with what I noticed with thier training, so Ill exclude that and just say some people build bad habits which can be easily exploited instead...

Either way my point wasnt about boxers, in general, it was about people's habits.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

OK your right, it wasnt fair to say "boxers" in my example based on my personal experiences with what I noticed with thier training, so Ill exclude that and just say some people build bad habits which can be easily exploited instead...

Either way my point wasnt about boxers, in general, it was about people's habits.

All fighters have weaknesses that can be exploited, the problem is, often times it is much easier said than done. Like Frost said, I used to think I could just kick out a boxer's legs and it was done, but that's not always the case. A good philosophy to live by is this, a style does not make the fighter, rather, the fighter makes the style. There are many paths to a destination, and it is ignorant to think only one path can get you there.;)

[YouKnowWho]

really, it was one of the first things i was shown, along with all the throws and takedowns from the old yang form which included the fast fajing stuff :confused:

Many years ago in Taiwan during the Taiwan Taiji Association annual meeting. The chairperson 師爵 (Shi Jue) knew nothing about Taiji. There was a discussion on "What's the application of the needle at the bottom of the sea?" Many Taiji masters gave their opinions, but none of them had mentioned the wrist lock application. One CMA master even said, "It can be used to grab somone's knee." I believe since the left hand position in some system of their Taiji form does not matach to the wrist lock application (left hand hold on top of the right wrist), many Taiji masters in Taiwan donot know it can be used as wrsit lock.

[David Jamieson]

Many years ago in Taiwan during the Taiwan Taiji Association annual meeting. The chairperson 師爵 (Shi Jue) knew nothing about Taiji. There was a discussion on "What's the application of the needle at the bottom of the sea?" Many Taiji masters gave their opinions, but none of them had mentioned the wrist lock application. One CMA master even said, "It can be used to grab somone's knee." I believe since the left hand position in some system of their Taiji form does not matach to the wrist lock application (left hand hold on top of the right wrist), many Taiji masters in Taiwan donot know it can be used as wrsit lock.

Truth be told, the greater majority of people that play taijiquan have no idea as to what the martial applications are, have never learned them and have been taught by people who also never learned any practical use for the martial art.

subsequently, it is still good practice to limber the joints, calm the breath and ease the mind.

[tiaji1983]

A good philosophy to live by is this, a style does not make the fighter, rather, the fighter makes the style. There are many paths to a destination, and it is ignorant to think only one path can get you there.

I agree with you 100%.

Its a shame people are learning it and dont know the combat applications, or even its a fighting art. But maybe one day all that will change. I even like to teach the elderly people the combat applications. The hard part is making people discover for themselves the applications so they learn how to disect the forms and make them formless...

[SteveLau]

Mighty,

The training method you first mentioned is good to train up sparring skill. I do not think it will take forever. The query by other members of the method stabs on the problem of the complexity of a style - too many techniques. Perhaps too complicated. These styles have more than 50 unarmed hand sets. So whatever training method they use is likely to be difficult to succeed in helping students to master the skill.




KC
Hong Kong

[HumbleWCGuy]

I think that there is a problem when it come to competitive striking. There is a tendency to ramp the conditioning and contact element of the class far to quickly in order to get a guy in the ring.

I think that it gets Even worse when a guy with good grappling skills wants to do mma. He gets thrown into the "fight" class, but he really should be in the basic striking class.

[Frost]

I think that there is a problem when it come to competitive striking. There is a tendency to ramp the conditioning and contact element of the class far to quickly in order to get a guy in the ring.

I think that it gets Even worse when a guy with good grappling skills wants to do mma. He gets thrown into the "fight" class, but he really should be in the basic striking class.

this is a general statement and whilst true in some schools most of the good ones will not do this, we have several national level judo guys comeand try out at the gym i train at, they are all put in the beginner striking class and told that before they compete pro MMA they must have 3 or 4 K1 or thai matches, even the amature guys have to have at least sparred full contact in the gym with the pro thai guys before they are allowed to fight. Its the same for stand up guys they must do a few grappling comps before doing MMA.