The ugly hands of martial arts AND ALSO A NINJA! (vids)

[IronFist]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVzUtJteogA&feature=channel

wtf knuckles @ 0:55


Also, this ninja can dive over a Miata:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeTkCR1ottI&feature=related

[sanjuro_ronin]

Typical "hard" conditioning that makes you pay for it in the long run.
Honestly, if I have to blame someone I would blame the Chinese that taught the forging process to the Okinawans and Japanese and didn't teach them the "inner" stuff like the use of Jow's and proper massaging.
Iron hand training leaves no visible evidence of its process on the hands, outside of some "swelling" compared to an untrained hand and outside of what you can feel.

[goju]

i thought some of the okinawans had jow? ive certainly heard of that "uechi grass" that supposed to help wtih bruising and what not

[sanjuro_ronin]

i thought some of the okinawans had jow? ive certainly heard of that "uechi grass" that supposed to help wtih bruising and what not

Some did, very few.
For the Okinawans and Japanese ( and some westerners) the deformed hands were something to be proud of, the marks of a warrior or some BS like that.
I know, I was one of them and in kyokushin, "marked hands" were a sign of 'real training".
Silly.

[goju]

lol wow i was just told the calluses or the enlarged knuckles were a result of makiwara training not an objective or that i should aspire to mangle my hands tp show my manliness

[sanjuro_ronin]

lol wow i was just told the calluses or the enlarged knuckles were a result of makiwara training not an objective or that i should aspire to mangle my hands tp show my manliness

Well, everyone is told that, but you are also told to wear them as "badges of honor".
Fact is, calluses and enlarged knuckles are the result of not taking care of your tools.
They do NOT equal a more "powerful punch" and they do NOT equal real MA training.
They equal neglect and lack of proper understanding of conditioning.
Besides, what good is showing the world you are a MA because of "deformed" hands when it is best to keep it a secret?

[goju]

well to be fair i would like to actually see iron palm applied and demonstrated in a realistic setting outside of the typical brick smashing demo . i think very few people can do much besides that with that version of hand forging so i would stick to my post and heavy bag work just to avoid the charlatans

"Besides, what good is showing the world you are a MA because of "deformed" hands when it is best to keep it a secret?"

bah thats old timey bull puckey that still hangs around in traditional arts.

today all deformed knuckles do is gross out chicks and make people occasionally ask you about your knuckles if they happen to notice them:D

[David Jamieson]

Someone didn't learn how to use brine, wine or massage and let their hand become like that.

dit da jow is great, but even western boxers soak, massage and use pickling juice on their hands to maintain suppleness.

turning your hand into a pile of mess like that is...well, stupid.

I never was down with the japanese conditioning methods. Too much masochism, lacking in common sense and surprisingly ignorant of the medicinal practice required to maintain health while conditioning.

a 65 year old IP master has hands like an office worker.
a 65 year old japanese makawari dude will have a real hard time typing, tying shoes and eating with chopsticks in a normal manner.

[goju]

what i was getting at is i think there is a lot of myths surrounding both styles of hand forging

one is apparently the correct way to do things but seems to largely work if your being invaded by bricks while the others can be sacrificing safety for the sake of machoness:rolleyes:

ive met quite a few older karate or tkd guys whos hands were fine from the post training

i believe the notion that the chinese masters hands remain normal while the karate masters hands suffer in the long run is just that a myth

[sanjuro_ronin]

what i was getting at is i think there is a lot of myths surrounding both styles of hand forging

one is apparently the correct way to do things but seems to largely work if your being invaded by bricks while the others can be sacrificing safety for the sake of machoness:rolleyes:

ive met quite a few older karate or tkd guys whos hands were fine from the post training

i believe the notion that the chinese masters hands remain normal while the karate masters hands suffer in the long run is just that a myth

Well, On a whole most TCMA guys have better hands than the TJM or the Okinawans.
You should have seen Morio Higaonna's hands before he started using Jow and correct massaging.
Or Taira's senseis hands to this day ( I think, unless he has changed in the last few years) or Shinjo senseis.

[goju]

well ive heard higaonna state in masters magazine he works on the makiwara around and hour to an hour a half a day lol

i mean its easy to see why someones hands would be in such poor shape given the durations of their post trainings and i think thats a reason why lot of karatekas hands suffer in the long run they use too much force on the pole to soon and the training time spent is over kill

[Dragonzbane76]

Well, everyone is told that, but you are also told to wear them as "badges of honor".
Fact is, calluses and enlarged knuckles are the result of not taking care of your tools.
They do NOT equal a more "powerful punch" and they do NOT equal real MA training.
They equal neglect and lack of proper understanding of conditioning.

they do equal degenerative arthritis later on in life with high doses of joint pain to the extent of not being able to use your hands. :rolleyes:

[GeneChing]

Everyone knows ninjas drive a Jazz (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eW4D1lWq9Io).

[David Jamieson]

i believe the notion that the chinese masters hands remain normal while the karate masters hands suffer in the long run is just that a myth


nay. karate dudes screw up their hands bad. There are hundreds of examples. I know a few myself personally and also I know several practitioners of iron palm from chinese practice that do not suffer what the japanese players do.


It's not a myth, it's for real. The japanese ways of hand conditioning are macho crap and the chinese versions of this conditioning are well thought out, developed over time and ultimately do not lead to the hazards that are found with the makawari training and break training that is popular in japanese martial arts.

It will work for you in the short term, but in the long run, you are wrecking your hands if you are not also using the medicine and massage.

[goju]

nay. karate dudes screw up their hands bad. There are hundreds of examples. I know a few myself personally and also I know several practitioners of iron palm from chinese practice that do not suffer what the japanese players do.


It's not a myth, it's for real. The japanese ways of hand conditioning are macho crap and the chinese versions of this conditioning are well thought out, developed over time and ultimately do not lead to the hazards that are found with the makawari training and break training that is popular in japanese martial arts.

It will work for you in the short term, but in the long run, you are wrecking your hands if you are not also using the medicine and massage.


correct me if im wrong but ive read in here in ip training quite a few practioners only train one hand in case they end up doing long term damage to themselves. they still hav eone good hand If ip was obviously the safe route then why would they have to worry about this?

[David Jamieson]

correct me if im wrong but ive read in here in ip training quite a few practioners only train one hand in case they end up doing long term damage to themselves. they still hav eone good hand If ip was obviously the safe route then why would they have to worry about this?

whoever said that is not receiving proper IP training.

so, in essence they are lying to you with this line.
What you have said is someone else complete fabrication.

People who do IP here, such as the method promoted by Ku yu cheung, will confirm that to state this is foolish. YOu work one hand if that's all you have is one hand.

There are qigongs, massage methods, medicines involved with genuine IP.

[sanjuro_ronin]

correct me if im wrong but ive read in here in ip training quite a few practioners only train one hand in case they end up doing long term damage to themselves. they still hav eone good hand If ip was obviously the safe route then why would they have to worry about this?

There are a few reasons given to the "one hand" approach, none of them are because of potential damage.
There is the "chi" reason and there are a couple of those at least ( right hand only because the hear tis on the left side, doing both divides the chi, etc)
There are practical reasons: having one hand forged and one not forged allows for an application of "degree" of force.
There are others to I am sure.


well to be fair i would like to actually see iron palm applied and demonstrated in a realistic setting outside of the typical brick smashing demo . i think very few people can do much besides that with that version of hand forging so i would stick to my post and heavy bag work just to avoid the charlatans

Dude, how else do you want someone to demo IP? by hitting someone ??

[KC Elbows]

Dude, how else do you want someone to demo IP? by hitting someone ??

Yes!!!

To be scientific, they should be randomly selected. A simple method might be to begin at the top of the up escalator at a mall in December, and finish in time to get to the getaway car after killing the mall cops with the dim mak, but before cops with guns arrive.

That's how the traditional chinese sifu would've done it. Just don't kill an actual Chinese person, or you'll have to fight Wong Jack Man to keep your school open.

[goju]

T
Dude, how else do you want someone to demo IP? by hitting someone ??

well yes

im sure you can vary the degrees of force with the strike no? otherwise you would be destroying anything you struck

[sanjuro_ronin]

Maybe a visit to a slaughterhouse...

OK, I'll give you that one.:D

[goju]

Yes!!!

To be scientific, they should be randomly selected. A simple method might be to begin at the top of the up escalator at a mall in December, and finish in time to get to the getaway car after killing the mall cops with the dim mak, but before cops with guns arrive.

That's how the traditional chinese sifu would've done it. Just don't kill an actual Chinese person, or you'll have to fight Wong Jack Man to keep your school open.

LOL

i think an actual study like say the ones they do in fight science with the dummies with impact sensors would be a good idea

guage the ip strike with a normal non ip conditioned punch and guage the results and differences

[sanjuro_ronin]

well yes

im sure you can vary the degrees of force with the strike no? otherwise you would be destroying anything you struck

Well, no.
First off, hitting people to demo hand conditoning proves nothing since one can do that without it.
Second, hitting people to make a point is uncivilized, you cur !
:p

The reason that IP guys break slabs and bricks and assorted building materials, is to show the degree of conditioning, not "hitting or fighting prowess".

[goju]

Well, no.
First off, hitting people to demo hand conditoning proves nothing since one can do that without it.

of course but if theres no noticeable difference with the ip strike vs a normal punch whats the point of ip? merely to strengthen the hand somewhat to pererve it for use as one gets older?



Second, hitting people to make a point is uncivilized, you cur !
i meant an actual MATURE SCIENTIFIC study LOL not a teacher grabbing his student my the collar and laying his cranium across a table to crack him open like a coconut!


The reason that IP guys break slabs and bricks and assorted building materials, is to show the degree of conditioning, not "hitting or fighting prowess".

youve said yourself the average person can break a brick or two with out an prior conditioning hell i ve seen it myself

[sanjuro_ronin]

i meant an actual MATURE SCIENTIFIC study LOL not a teacher grabbing his student my the collar and laying his cranium across a table to crack him open like a coconut!

One would argue that for some people, that is the only proof.


youve said yourself the average person can break a brick or two with out an prior conditioning hell i ve seen it myself

The average person? No.
The average MA that does conditioning, yes.
So why IP?
Well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1QWZmfBJME&feature=related

[Yao Sing]

Yeah, I thought it was like weaing gloves in boxing (to protect your hands, not the other guys head). IP allows you to strike full force without concern for hand injury.

Would make for an interesting story line, a typical day in the life of a guy with IP hands breaking everything he touches etc. Inadvertantly knocking people out while walking down the aisle of a city bus. Could be great comedy.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yeah, I thought it was like weaing gloves in boxing (to protect your hands, not the other guys head). IP allows you to strike full force without concern for hand injury.

Would make for an interesting story line, a typical day in the life of a guy with IP hands breaking everything he touches etc. Inadvertantly knocking people out while walking down the aisle of a city bus. Could be great comedy.

Staring Jack Black and Seth Rogan !

[KC Elbows]

LOL


It's only funny until you have to fight Wong Jack Man. Then everyone and their mother comes out with contradictory accounts, next thing you know, you're naked and dead next to a B-movie hong kong actress and David Carradine is stealing your TV show.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It's only funny until you have to fight Wong Jack Man. Then everyone and their mother comes out with contradictory accounts, next thing you know, you're naked and dead next to a B-movie hong kong actress and David Carradine is stealing your TV show.

Sad how one man's life can be summed up in so few words...
You suck !

[KC Elbows]

Sad how one man's life can be summed up in so few words...
You suck !

Hey, I actually like Bruce Lee, so I will allow his role in this imagined story to be played by an Asian. Pat Morita.

If this were the 1950s version of me, I would award the role to Yul Brynner.

In the '60s, Charles Bronson.

[goju]

One would argue that for some people, that is the only proof.

eh even then some still wouldnt be convinced ahaha




The average person? No.
The average MA that does conditioning, yes.
So why IP?
Well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1QWZmfBJME&feature=related


mmm accursed youtube doesnt work on my puter

found it here

http://www.vidoemo.com/yvideo.php?i=UDFRV1ptcWuRpZkJKTUU&iron-palm-brick-break-circle-of-life-kung-fu-academy


though the comments on the youtube page seems to point to there being more to the vid than what i could see on the other site


IP allows you to strike full force without concern for hand injury.

ive found from direct personal experience (i learned the hard way) as long as you avoid punching the skull you dont have too much to worry about

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hey, I actually like Bruce Lee, so I will allow his role in this imagined story to be played by an Asian. Pat Morita.

He's dead too you know.

[KC Elbows]

He's dead too you know.

That's what happens when you **** with Wong Jack Man.

[goju]

That's what happens when you **** with Wong Jack Man.


just dont **** him off too much or he will use his deadly northern kicks:rolleyes::D

[teetsao]

on the hand conditioning thing, i have to totally disagree. i have done i.p. traininig for 5 years now. i know how to apply my skill in real defense/fight situation. having a conditioned hand is paramount to being able to do serious damage with each strike. we have all heard of the buddy or friend of a friend who got into a fight and broke their hand or wrist. then someone says"he hit him so hard he broke his hand", no they just had weak hands. your hands are your main weapons,so you should make them as powerful as you can. condititoning is of the utmost importance. i am pretty sure the whole tearing your hands up thing is a western ,white guy thing. my bro. has been in the okinawan arts for 10 years. shuri te to be exact. he states that they were never told to strike a makiwara full force starting out,but oyu build from begining at around 20 hits easily or what ever you can stand and build up from there. Beginning power output should be around 20-25% on a makiwara. Uechi grass is a total myth, the only ones using dit da jow, kept it a secret and did not share their formulas with their students if they had them.
there also is nothing magical about i.p., it is just physical adaptation and in hitting true internal power is kinematics and proper body alignment.

[David Jamieson]

on the hand conditioning thing, i have to totally disagree. i have done i.p. traininig for 5 years now. i know how to apply my skill in real defense/fight situation. having a conditioned hand is paramount to being able to do serious damage with each strike. we have all heard of the buddy or friend of a friend who got into a fight and broke their hand or wrist. then someone says"he hit him so hard he broke his hand", no they just had weak hands. your hands are your main weapons,so you should make them as powerful as you can. condititoning is of the utmost importance. i am pretty sure the whole tearing your hands up thing is a western ,white guy thing. my bro. has been in the okinawan arts for 10 years. shuri te to be exact. he states that they were never told to strike a makiwara full force starting out,but oyu build from begining at around 20 hits easily or what ever you can stand and build up from there. Beginning power output should be around 20-25% on a makiwara. Uechi grass is a total myth, the only ones using dit da jow, kept it a secret and did not share their formulas with their students if they had them.
there also is nothing magical about i.p., it is just physical adaptation and in hitting true internal power is kinematics and proper body alignment.

all true, except for the western white guy thing. nope, there are lots of japanese who practice wrong as well.
Predominantly so I would add. But I would agree there are likely some who know how to use the proper method that is gradual and slow in building the skill.

all makiwara training I received from 3 different sensei was wrong. I'm glad I bailed on Karate in the long run in that sense. It's as hard to find good karate training as it is to find a good kungfu teacher as it is to find a good jujitsu teacher.

there is a lot of experts and masters in their 20's though. Youtube and schools are filled with them. lol

It makes it all that more difficult for the actual person who is truly seeking good training for the lifetime path to walk.

[teetsao]

sorry to hear about some bad experience you had. glad you found out and got out of it. i have been fortunate enough to have been given the real training from the get go. i was given the real deal along with vibrational training from the begioning of my traininjg,so i am very pleased with my training. i have a long way to go,but i well on my way. this is what i will be showing on the dvd. this is our last day of filming.

[Dale Dugas]

Rod,

Good luck with the filming.

Be well, brother.

[Yao Sing]

IP=internal brass knuckles

The more dense/solid the object hitting you the more force is directed into you and not kicked back (every action has equal & opposite reaction). Like a shape charge.

Would you rather be hit by a hard rock or equal size stuffed toy?

The key is gradual progression allowing the body to respond to the stimulus and repair, thus the reason for jow, massage and abstinence.

[sanjuro_ronin]

IP=internal brass knuckles

The more dense/solid the object hitting you the more force is directed into you and not kicked back (every action has equal & opposite reaction). Like a shape charge.

Would you rather be hit by a hard rock or equal size stuffed toy?

The key is gradual progression allowing the body to respond to the stimulus and repair, thus the reason for jow, massage and abstinence.

And salami slapping, never forget the salami slapping !

[Yao Sing]

And salami slapping, never forget the salami slapping !

Nope, no salami slapping allowed.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Nope, no salami slapping allowed.

Dude, I feel sorry for your first victim, er lay.

[Yao Sing]

You know there's a legit physical/medical reason for the rule against sex during IP training that I've never heard anyone mention. Most go on about energy and qi blah blah blah.

[Dale Dugas]

The celibacy thing has been talked about for ages.

You can sum it up, people years ago did not have the same luxuries that we had, they had to walk, and work hard to survive. So people who started these programs was thinking about not wanting to burn it at both ends.

Heavy training, walking, working, etc...

retention has always been about not being overextended. Having something in reserve. A savings account is how one friend of mine terms it.

Now people have a much softer lifestyle than 200 or more years ago. I teach my students to try it if they want or if they are very active to limit the encounter to once a week, date night is important to the partners of all the trainees.

As long as you are not burning it at both ends and are getting sick, or injure your hand and have it not heal as you would if you were healthier.

comments?

[David Jamieson]

You know there's a legit physical/medical reason for the rule against sex during IP training that I've never heard anyone mention. Most go on about energy and qi blah blah blah.

lol.

focus!

[David Jamieson]

The celibacy thing has been talked about for ages.

You can sum it up, people years ago did not have the same luxuries that we had, they had to walk, and work hard to survive. So people who started these programs was thinking about not wanting to burn it at both ends.

Heavy training, walking, working, etc...

retention has always been about not being overextended. Having something in reserve. A savings account is how one friend of mine terms it.

Now people have a much softer lifestyle than 200 or more years ago. I teach my students to try it if they want or if they are very active to limit the encounter to once a week, date night is important to the partners of all the trainees.

As long as you are not burning it at both ends and are getting sick, or injure your hand and have it not heal as you would if you were healthier.

comments?


research with olympic athletes shows that there is benefit to having sex before athletic endeavours, particularly with males because to flush the system is to increase the testosterone production.

there has been no evidence at all that indicates that sexual activity takes it out of your the next day and there hasn't been any testing about whether or not there is a mental effect.

the reason I went with it (sememn retention practice for 100 days) is because it is in the tradition and part of the training. period.

I really and honestly can't think of medical reasons. I can think of plenty of religio-philosophical reasons. lol But then, there can be an abundance of religio-philosophy associated with esoteric practices it seems.

[Yao Sing]

Dale, that's the typical reason I've heard from most practitioners.

David, I said a physical/medical reason but focus/distraction is a good alternative to the one Dale mentioned.

I'll reserve my answer until after others if anyone else wants to comment.

Besides, you guys are supposed to give me money and buy my special jow to learn the 'secrets'. :D

BTW, I don't train or teach IP.

[IronFist]

this guy's right hand appears to have big white callouses on it, and on the first knuckle as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTeB7bPMHXo&feature=related

[sanjuro_ronin]

research with olympic athletes shows that there is benefit to having sex before athletic endeavours, particularly with males because to flush the system is to increase the testosterone production.

there has been no evidence at all that indicates that sexual activity takes it out of your the next day and there hasn't been any testing about whether or not there is a mental effect.

the reason I went with it (sememn retention practice for 100 days) is because it is in the tradition and part of the training. period.

I really and honestly can't think of medical reasons. I can think of plenty of religio-philosophical reasons. lol But then, there can be an abundance of religio-philosophy associated with esoteric practices it seems.

Correct.
Studies have shown that there are actual dangers to "semen retention" techniques.
Granted that going for 100 days won't kill anyone, except the poor girl that gets her head blown off when Mr.happy finally gets to "blow off some steam".
:D

[David Jamieson]

this guy's right hand appears to have big white callouses on it, and on the first knuckle as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTeB7bPMHXo&feature=related

no medicine, no massage, lots of hassle as an old man.

he'll be a crappy painter when he's 65. lol

there is actually a couple of chinese methods that go this route.

The direct method of hardening the hands is described like this.

In "Kung Fu; History, Phiilosophy and technique (Chow and Spangler)" There is anecdotal evidence presented at the back of teh book that covers a few different and unusual training methods.

some would, in order to harden the fists would actually strike at stone until the knuckles were all broken. this would be repeated until the knuckle surface was a hard flat callous with the bones beneath formed the same.

ridiculous to do this these days.

the other direct method is hand thrusting into urns of fired stones. Also hard on the hands and in tandem with striking can leave your hands in a sorry state. Lot's of medicine is used with this method.

And then there is the indirect method of iron palm which is the peak of the development of the concept and science of it really. slow & gradual percussive strikes to different media over a measure of time, medicine use, qigong practice associated to enhance oxygenation and blood flow to the hands and bridges.

so the hard striking methods are old fashioned and in my opinion, less than the iron palm method as used in old shaolin martial arts.

hitting away at something is ..well kind of dumb. But, if that's all you got, then swing away I guess. :)

[Yao Sing]

Ok here's the deal. Iron Palm training uses the same principle as body builders putting on muscle. The hands are transformed by gradual breaking down and rebuilding the tissue. The body will adapt to the environment, the reason astronauts lose bone and muscle mass in zero gravity.

The body needs the right materials to rebuild and repair the tissue damaged by the pounding in IP training. One mineral that promotes healing is Zinc.

Zinc is also found in high quantities in Seminal Fluid. The reason men are told to increase their Zinc intake is to offset the loss during sex.

So the loss of Zinc during sex will delay the repairs needed for IP training. Your 100 days will turn into 300 days or maybe won't work at all since IP relies on rebuilding the hands much denser than before. If you can't pound daily then you won't get the density you need for IP. If the healing takes too long and the pounding isn't often enough all you get is a repaired regular hand, not IP.

[Yao Sing]

You know another thing about mangling the hands is we tend to look at these ancient ways with a modern eye. In the old days if you made a living by fighting it would just be a tool of the trade, a requirement of the busines. They didn't have to worry about signing paychecks like we do.

The did whatever was needed to be successful as a bodyguard or escort. I don't think they planned to live to a ripe old age so it didn't matter if their hands crapped out later in life.

[David Jamieson]

yao sing, you've been sold a bill of goods.

semen recharges in hours.

the zinc loss from semen expulsion is irrelevant to healing timelines.

like i said, there is science that shows these suppositions to be erroneous.

the ancients believed a lot of silly things. doesn't mean they were wrong about everything, but tehy had plenty of ignorance.

tribal people now with limited education believe lots of silly things too.

the semen retention isn't actual;ly necessary other than devekloping the willpower to do so! :p it'
s a good mental exercise!

[Yao Sing]

So you think it's just to develop willpower?

And this newly developed willpower aid in IP training how?

And it's done the same time as IP training why?

So the modern recommendation for men to increase zinc intake is hogwash? Do you believe women should increase their iron intake?

So where does the zinc come from to replenish the semen in hours? From the body's reserve of zinc.

So the more semen is replaced the less is available for wound healing correct?

And the less available for wound healing the slower the hands heal which disrupts the IP training. Right?

"Zinc is a component of many enzymes, including some that are needed to repair wounds. Even a mild deficiency of zinc can interfere with optimal recovery from everyday tissue damage, as well as from more serious trauma.14, 15 One controlled trial found the healing time of a surgical wound was reduced by 43% with oral supplementation of 50 mg of zinc three times per day, in the form of zinc sulfate.16"
http://www.peacehealth.org/kbase/cam/hn-1056000.htm

[sanjuro_ronin]

Dude, if you want to believe that the retention thing has to do with avoiding "zinc depeletion", that is cool.
Certainly lack of zinc is not a good thing.
The amount of zinc lost in ejaculation is minimal ( unless you are Peter North, LOL) though and for it to be a factor that would mean that you are already zinc depleted.

The process that increases the density in the bones of the IP hand is NOT dependant on Zinc per say, but like any other vital mineral, defciency is not a good thing.

Of course, like all things, too much zinc has its problems too:
http://www.nutritional-supplements-health-guide.com/zinc-side-effects.html

Zinc is an essential mineral that is needed by your body to manufacture about 300 enzymes. Each of these enzymes have diverse processes and functions such as cell reproduction, immunity, protein synthesis, wound repair, vision, free radical protection and immunity.

Zinc Nutrition
Fortunately, a healthy daily diet can provide you with just enough zinc that you need. It is found in ordinary foods that we take such as red meat, sea foods and poultry. Oysters are the most excellent zinc sources. If you are not much into meats or seafood, other good sources include beans, whole grains, dairy products, cereals and nuts. However, zinc absorption is more effective if they come from animal proteins than from plant sources. The Recommended Dietary Allowance of zinc varies, but generally about 9-11 milligrams is enough for adults. However, the truth of the matter is that only about 30% of the zinc that you intake can get absorbed by your body. Many factors can interfere with zinc absorption such as phytates in your brain and fibers. If your body cannot absorb as much as it needs, you may need to take zinc supplements in order to prevent zinc deficiency .

Who Needs Zinc Mineral Supplements?
To date, there is yet a laboratory test that can exactly measure how much zinc your body needs. But if you experience symptoms such as diarrhea, lesions, loss of appetite, growth retardation (in children), hair loss, delays in wound healing, taste abnormalities and so on, your doctor might suspect you to have some form of zinc deficiency. If so, he would most probably advise you to take zinc supplements.

Zinc supplements have also been seen to be effective in shortening cold symptoms, reduce the severity of cold sores, increase energy levels, treat ADHD in children, fighting hair loss and managing conditions such as hypoglycemia and diabetes.

Side Effects of Zinc Supplement
The danger of taking zinc supplements can be summarized in two words: zinc overdose. A zinc dose of 40 milligrams is approved safe to use by FDA and a zinc dosage more than this can pose certain risks. In terms of zinc toxicity, there is no other way to put it: excess zinc is dangerous! This is primarily true because too much zinc will likely interfere with the metabolism and absorption of other essential minerals in your body, most especially iron, magnesium and copper. Zinc side effects can become potentially serious if you take doses from 150 to 450 mg a day. Taking this much can decrease your copper, iron and magnesium levels, reduce your body's immune function, and reduce your HDL (good cholesterol) level.

Zinc Sulfate Side Effects
Oral zinc sulfate supplements can also cause side effects such as stomach upset, heartburn and nausea. Rare side effects have also been reported and these include fever, sore throat, mouth sores, weakness and fatigue. Zinc is a very important mineral but you only need to take just enough. If you decide on taking mineral supplements for one or more reasons, it is very important that you consult your doctor first and report whatever zinc side effects you experience.

[David Jamieson]

So you think it's just to develop willpower?

And this newly developed willpower aid in IP training how?

And it's done the same time as IP training why?

*snip*

1) yes

2) give it a moment of thought.

3) give it another moment of thought.

I am not attacking your view, I just don't share it.

sexual desire is without a doubt one of the greatest strains on will that will ever have an effect on a human being.

to curb your passion in pursuit of skill is all about staying power, stamina and forging of the will.

It requires great will to forge any warrior skill. it requires subduing passion. It is not easy, it serves as a reminder of how powerful your desire is and at teh same time, curbing it reveals to you your own weakness and your own strength and ability!

:)

[Yao Sing]

Man you guys are dense and again viewing it with a modern eye. The ancients discovered the relationship through observation without understanding the underlying mechanism. It's modern science that has the ability to discover the scientific reasons behind those observations.

Sanjuro
"The process that increases the density in the bones of the IP hand is NOT dependant on Zinc per say,"

So you believe IP is only about strengthening bone? What about the rest of the hand? You know, weakest link and all that?

"Zinc Nutrition
Fortunately, a healthy daily diet can provide you with just enough zinc that you need. It is found in ordinary foods that we take such as red meat, sea foods and poultry. Oysters are the most "

So that land of small skinny people didn't get like that through years of poor diet? Have you been to China? How much meat do they eat over there?

"Who Needs Zinc Mineral Supplements?
To date, there is yet a laboratory test that can exactly measure how much zinc your body needs."

So to begin with it's not known how much the average person needs but the person rebuilding his body should get more than average, or hold on to what they have.

Jamieson
Explain why it wouldn't be done BEFORE IP training if it's just for willpower. Also why is it only used for IP, doesn't any other training require willpower? Why does IP need extra willpower?

And does your definition of "passion" include masturbation? Remember the requirement is not just no sex but no ejaculation.

[David Jamieson]

*snip*

Jamieson
Explain why it wouldn't be done BEFORE IP training if it's just for willpower. Also why is it only used for IP, doesn't any other training require willpower? Why does IP need extra willpower?

And does your definition of "passion" include masturbation? Remember the requirement is not just no sex but no ejaculation.

yao sing, in martial arts training, you are encouraged quite often to subdue desire and passion. Even before IP training and depending on the sort of school you came out of, it is indeed addressed.

IP isn't part of every system. In fact, it's pretty stand alone, but some styles have it and most do not.

All training requires will power.

would you spend your time training? Or jerking off? which practice will bear fruit? which practice is a waste of time? Which practice requires willpower? lol

I would think it's pretty self evident.

You really gonna stick with the zinc story? are we really dense because we recognize that most esoteric practices require mindfulness and power of the will to carry on?

It's not zinc friend, it is about recognizing your strength and accepting your weakness and regulating the whole self in an effort to make oneself better.

It is not just IP. But IP doesn't make light of the truth of the human condition.
To forge good steel, the impurities must be removed. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Man you guys are dense and again viewing it with a modern eye. The ancients discovered the relationship through observation without understanding the underlying mechanism. It's modern science that has the ability to discover the scientific reasons behind those observations.

Dude, no one is dense, the simple fact that one questions certain practises that have no scientific proof of working is the opposite of dense.


So you believe IP is only about strengthening bone? What about the rest of the hand? You know, weakest link and all that?
Did I say ONLY?
Besides, bone takes the longest and most to repair, "most" of the zinc would go to that job first.


So that land of small skinny people didn't get like that through years of poor diet? Have you been to China? How much meat do they eat over there?

Fish is very high in zinc by the way, but that is not the point and can even be used to show why it is not needed NOW if far better and more balanced diets, but that isn't even the point.

The point is that if one chooses to follow a "retention" program, that is their choice but they must be aware of the Pros AND cons of such, as woudl someone choosing to NOT follow a program.

[Yao Sing]

All training requires will power.

Proves my point. So why is IP singled out for retention?


You really gonna stick with the zinc story? are we really dense because we recognize that most esoteric practices require mindfulness and power of the will to carry on?

But only IP says no sex. Plus, do you really need to get mentlly charged up to slap a bag of rocks?


It's not zinc friend, it is about recognizing your strength and accepting your weakness and regulating the whole self in an effort to make oneself better.

Mumbo jumbo. This is why the MMA guys laugh at CMA.


To forge good steel, the impurities must be removed. :)

You don't see how your comments don't answer any of my questions and are just vague and generic?

All training requires willpower, true. So why doe IP require extra willpower? Hitting a bag of rocks with your hands isn't much different than hitting a heavy bag but IP requires retention while heavy bag workout doesn't. Why?

Why did you follow the retention idea when you trained IP but not for any other training even though you say they all require extra willpower?

That's what's at issue here, why IP requires/recommends retention. The fact that they are done at the same time blows away your claim that it's for willpower development. If B needs A then A is a pre-requisite for B and should be done BEFORE B. Otherwise what if yu fail part way through the training, do you start over.

And since love for a pretty girl could possibly disrupt specialized training then masturbation would be a possible remedy. Just whack off then get back to your training. Simple answer to the distraction problem. But the opposite is recommended so distraction/willpower is not the problem.


Dude, no one is dense, the simple fact that one questions certain practises that have no scientific proof of working is the opposite of dense.


Did I say ONLY?
Besides, bone takes the longest and most to repair, "most" of the zinc would go to that job first.



Fish is very high in zinc by the way, but that is not the point and can even be used to show why it is not needed NOW if far better and more balanced diets, but that isn't even the point.

The point is that if one chooses to follow a "retention" program, that is their choice but they must be aware of the Pros AND cons of such, as woudl someone choosing to NOT follow a program.

Arguing the cons of retention does not invalidate my supposition.

Sorry but I have little patience for non-logical thinkers. Both of you have demonstrated decent intelligence so it's strange to me that you guys fall for such weak illogical explanations yet shrug off logical science based explanations.

I apoligize for the 'dense' comment. To be clear, Jamison believes it's for increasing willpower while you believe it's for energy conservation right (not burning it at both ends)?

So then why is IP any different then say hitting the heavy bag or wooden dummy practice? You just stand there slapping a bag of rocks with your hands. Hardly a need for intense willpower or an extreme energy expenditure.

So why is it only for IP training? And please give a specific answer, not the beat-around-the-bush all training requires willpower. That just proves my argument.

We can zero in on the issue here:
True or false
IP training is a process of gradually damaging (wounding) and rebuilding the tissue of the hands to increase their strength and density. (if false give your definition)

Zinc promotes wound healing.

Zinc is found in significant quantities in semenal fluid.

Replenishing lost semen depletes zinc in the body (if the body has x amount of zinc and it loses some in ejaculation then replenishing draws zinc from other parts of the body making less available for healing the hands)

[Yao Sing]

"What The Literature Reveals
The beneficial effects of zinc in wound healing have been reported to explain the retarded wound repair response seen in zinc-deficient patients along with the normalization of the wound healing mechanisms with zinc therapy.2 .......

...The ultimate effect of zinc oxide seems to be in the acceleration of re-epithelialization within the wound, yet most of the mechanisms are unknown. What has been clearly demonstrated, however, is that zinc oxide does have a positive impact on the wound."
http://www.podiatrytoday.com/article/1894

"Because of new clinical evidence presented at the World Union of Wound Healing Societies' meeting in Paris 2004, it is timely to re-evaluate the potential benefits offered by zinc therapy in wound management. Although numerous clinical trials claim to show the benefits of using oral or topical zinc therapy in wound management, variations in treatment regimen and zinc formulations used have obscured the true efficacy of the protocols. In keeping with the early studies on supplementary zinc therapy in pilonidal sinus management, evidence is now available to show that not only is zinc beneficial in the healing profile but that it provides an effective level of anti-infective action. Furthermore, a young boy with Hirschsprung's disease with symptoms of zinc deficiency successfully treated with zinc following gastrointestinal surgery provides further irrefutable evidence for the value of zinc in wound healing."
http://www.abateit.com/oligoelements/

"Semen contains citric acid, free amino acids, fructose, enzymes, phosphorylcholine, prostaglandin, potassium, and zinc."
http://menshealth.about.com/cs/stds/a/about_semen.htm

"Particularly high concentrations of zinc are in the prostate gland and semen."
http://www.zinc.org/zinc_health.html

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sorry but I have little patience for non-logical thinkers. Both of you have demonstrated decent intelligence so it's strange to me that you guys fall for such weak illogical explanations yet shrug off logical science based explanations.

What logical science based explanations are you referring to?
And before you get your knicker in a knot, I am not saying it is not valid per say, though it may be "overblown", heck I did my part for the 100days when I started IP years ago and still monitor the time frames between "chi blasts".
What I am saying is that "jing retention" has pros and cons and one must be aware of them.
You lose 5mg of zinc per "chi blast, this is according to some studies, this is of course an average.
11 Mg is what the average person needs and:
It has been reported that intake of more than 50 milligrams of zinc (both from diet and from supplements) can lead to improper copper metabolism, altered iron function, reduction of HDL's (good cholesterol) and reduced immune function.

So, if zinc is the issue in regards to retention, there are many ways around that.


So why is it only for IP training? And please give a specific answer, not the beat-around-the-bush all training requires willpower.

Retention is advised for ALL Iron gungs such as IP, IB and so forth, so it is not only IP.
But ask yourself this, why is it only recommended for the first 100 days?


We can zero in on the issue here:
True or false
IP training is a process of gradually damaging (wounding) and rebuilding the tissue of the hands to increase their strength and density. (if false give your definition)

Zinc promotes wound healing.

Ip, in the anatomical sense, is about slow and gradual progressive increase of bone density, with the increase of density in the hand tissues as a "side effect" since the training is "impact based" and since the bones are "deeper" the tissue is effected at the same time but is not the main focus, it gets to reap the benefits.
IP training, for the layman, can best be descibed as what happens when you compare a guy who has been running on concrete for 2 years with no shoes, VS a guy with shoes ( the eternal part aside of course), because the shoes absorbs the impact the shoe'd runner's bones will be less subject to the low impact stress and as such, will develop less in the same period of time.

http://www.healthaliciousness.com/articles/zinc.php

[David Jamieson]

yao sing, for all the ancient knew, they were horribly ignorant of a vast sea of other things.

there is all kinds of "village" knowledge wrapped around semen retention and what it does.

you honestly don't lose much zinc though, so that is not the reason for the retention.

Don't forget either that Confucian thought put a damper on Taoist sexual practices which were ultimately related to seeking immortality, which we know no one has achieved and is walking around talking about it. :)

did the ancients even know what zinc was? (no, it was discovered by a german in 1746 and furthermore the relationship of minerals and vitamins to teh human body was unknown at that time as well) did they really understand the body like we understand it today in it's make up? Or did they have a much more colloquial view that was attached to their own cosmology?


I chose to follow the 100 days when i trained. I honestly don't think it made a difference, except that sex felt great after 3 months of not doing it. lol

[Yao Sing]

What logical science based explanations are you referring to?

The ones I've been providing links to, the ones that when put together makes more sense thn the lame ones I've heard in the past. Besides you guys keep moving the target or saying things that essentially prove my point but you list them as though they disprove my point.

Anything involving tearing down and rebuilding tissue would be the same as IP.

Retention isn't suggested for bagwork, wooden dummy, light skills, etc.

It makes logical sense to me. I don't really see the link you guys are claiming. Your arguments are not logical.

Extra willpower for slapping a bag of rocks but not for wooden dummy practice?

Above average energy requirement for slapping a bag of rocks but not for hitting a heavy bag or weightlifting?


And before you get your knicker in a knot, I am not saying it is not valid per say, though it may be "overblown", heck I did my part for the 100days when I started IP years ago and still monitor the time frames between "chi blasts".

Then why are you shooting down my explanation?


What I am saying is that "jing retention" has pros and cons and one must be aware of them.
You lose 5mg of zinc per "chi blast, this is according to some studies, this is of course an average.
11 Mg is what the average person needs and:
It has been reported that intake of more than 50 milligrams of zinc (both from diet and from supplements) can lead to improper copper metabolism, altered iron function, reduction of HDL's (good cholesterol) and reduced immune function.

So, if zinc is the issue in regards to retention, there are many ways around that.

True there may be many ways around it but that still doesn't invalidate my supposition.

Pro and cons of retention are irrelevant to the discussion at hand which is 'the loss of zinc is the reason for retention in IP training'.


Retention is advised for ALL Iron gungs such as IP, IB and so forth, so it is not only IP.
But ask yourself this, why is it only recommended for the first 100 days?

All iron gongs the consist of breaking down and rebuilding body tissue I bet. Can you name one that requires retention but does not rebuild body tissue?

I would guess that the first 100 days is the rebuilding period after which it's just a matter of maintenance and not the tearing/rebuilding that's needed in the beginning.


Ip, in the anatomical sense, is about slow and gradual progressive increase of bone density, with the increase of density in the hand tissues as a "side effect" since the training is "impact based" and since the bones are "deeper" the tissue is effected at the same time but is not the main focus, it gets to reap the benefits.
IP training, for the layman, can best be descibed as what happens when you compare a guy who has been running on concrete for 2 years with no shoes, VS a guy with shoes ( the eternal part aside of course), because the shoes absorbs the impact the shoe'd runner's bones will be less subject to the low impact stress and as such, will develop less in the same period of time.

http://www.healthaliciousness.com/articles/zinc.php

Ok, so try to follow this:
You're hitting your hands trying to strengthen the bone. In the process the soft tissue is damaged. Now you can't keep pounding and damaging your hands without getting some healing done in between training periods.

So you would want to optimize your healing time and speed it up as much as possible. That would mean maintaining sufficient levels of zinc to promote the healing process. Since significant amounts of zinc are found in semen it follows that some is lost from ejaculation.

Since the body replenishes it semen reserves the zinc has to come from somewhere. More zinc spitting out the dragon's mouth the less is available for wound healing.

Since they didn't know anything about zinc in semen and it's use in wound healing they couldn't recommend high zinc containing food and they didn't have modern day supplements. All they saw was that the guys who whacked off during the first 100 days had slow healing hands and their IP was weaker than the guys who held it inside.

Now we have modern science to explain the things that used to be waved off as 'developing willpower' or 'conserving energy'.

Both of those arguments can be applied to ALL MA training and when looked at logically are really weak reasons for retention in certain (tear down/rebuild type) training protocols.

[Yao Sing]

yao sing, for all the ancient knew, they were horribly ignorant of a vast sea of other things.

there is all kinds of "village" knowledge wrapped around semen retention and what it does.

you honestly don't lose much zinc though, so that is not the reason for the retention.

Don't forget either that Confucian thought put a damper on Taoist sexual practices which were ultimately related to seeking immortality, which we know no one has achieved and is walking around talking about it. :)

did the ancients even know what zinc was? (no, it was discovered by a german in 1746 and furthermore the relationship of minerals and vitamins to teh human body was unknown at that time as well) did they really understand the body like we understand it today in it's make up? Or did they have a much more colloquial view that was attached to their own cosmology?


I chose to follow the 100 days when i trained. I honestly don't think it made a difference, except that sex felt great after 3 months of not doing it. lol

Again with the weak arguments. No, they didn't know what zinc was, that's my point. We can explain with science what they only knew through observation.

"You don't lose much anyway." The amount is not in question. That you need it is what's important. And if you want the maximum amount of healing it would make sense not to lose any of the needed ingredients. They probably thought it was qi that healed the hands in IP training so they wanted to make sure they didn't lose any by way of sex.

But now we know better (at least some of us do).

Besides, you haven't offered even the smallest bit of proof that the reason for retention is to increase willpower. I posed a few questions that you failed to answer.

"Extra willpower for slapping a bag of rocks but not for wooden dummy practice?"
Please explain this reasoning. Why does IP need more willpower than wooden dummy practice?

How does attempting to build willpower at the same time as IP help with the IP training. If anything every time you caved in and whacked off you would have to start over. Better to build the willpoweer first, right?
Please explain.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yao,
I don't think that anyone is arguing the benefits of zinc, and the reason I mentioned the dangers of "zinc overdose" is that I know people and people reading this may think that " if more is good, even more is better", know what I mean?
Now, the view that retention has to do with retaining zinc is a new one because you will not find that in any of the old manuals or teachings, all they said was "retain jing" ( Essences) no zinc.
The you/we are now putting a modern spin on it is fine, but lets not give the impression that is the way it was in the past because there is no evidence of that.

In the old days they advocated "no sex" for many sports and even in weightlifting, that is not new, the old boxer adage "women weaken legs" is as old as boxing.

Science has shown that to not be true in the sense of sex before a fight/competition, but it has not shown any conclusions in regards to long term.

RE" the tissue rebuilding you keep bringing up,
The focus of IP type forging is not tissue rebuilding, that is a "side effect", the focus is bone density increase and yes, zinc helps with that too.


As for the zinc lost in ejaculation, the 5 mg is not that much and can be replinshed easily.

So I ask you this, IF the purpose of "jing retention" was to conserve Zinc, then would a person that supplemtns zinc or eats zinc after sex be just as well off if not more so, since he is increasing zinc (marginally) and since "jing retention" does NOT produce zinc, is it even worth it?

[David Jamieson]

The ones I've been providing links to, the ones that when put together makes more sense thn the lame ones I've heard in the past. Besides you guys keep moving the target or saying things that essentially prove my point but you list them as though they disprove my point.

Anything involving tearing down and rebuilding tissue would be the same as IP.

Retention isn't suggested for bagwork, wooden dummy, light skills, etc.

It makes logical sense to me. I don't really see the link you guys are claiming. Your arguments are not logical.

Extra willpower for slapping a bag of rocks but not for wooden dummy practice?

Above average energy requirement for slapping a bag of rocks but not for hitting a heavy bag or weightlifting?



Then why are you shooting down my explanation?



True there may be many ways around it but that still doesn't invalidate my supposition.

Pro and cons of retention are irrelevant to the discussion at hand which is 'the loss of zinc is the reason for retention in IP training'.



All iron gongs the consist of breaking down and rebuilding body tissue I bet. Can you name one that requires retention but does not rebuild body tissue?

I would guess that the first 100 days is the rebuilding period after which it's just a matter of maintenance and not the tearing/rebuilding that's needed in the beginning.



Ok, so try to follow this:
You're hitting your hands trying to strengthen the bone. In the process the soft tissue is damaged. Now you can't keep pounding and damaging your hands without getting some healing done in between training periods.

So you would want to optimize your healing time and speed it up as much as possible. That would mean maintaining sufficient levels of zinc to promote the healing process. Since significant amounts of zinc are found in semen it follows that some is lost from ejaculation.

Since the body replenishes it semen reserves the zinc has to come from somewhere. More zinc spitting out the dragon's mouth the less is available for wound healing.

Since they didn't know anything about zinc in semen and it's use in wound healing they couldn't recommend high zinc containing food and they didn't have modern day supplements. All they saw was that the guys who whacked off during the first 100 days had slow healing hands and their IP was weaker than the guys who held it inside.

Now we have modern science to explain the things that used to be waved off as 'developing willpower' or 'conserving energy'.

Both of those arguments can be applied to ALL MA training and when looked at logically are really weak reasons for retention in certain (tear down/rebuild type) training protocols.

Actually you will be hard pressed to find any information whatsoever about observations of the ancients in regards to iron gongs. it cannot be stated as you have :
All they saw was that the guys who whacked off during the first 100 days had slow healing hands and their IP was weaker than the guys who held it inside..

However, it is known that these practices are quite old, their origins somewhat lost in time and no written manuals extant that are much older than 50 or 60 years.

It is known that bone when fractured, heals stronger and thicker so long as it is set properly.

this is a function of repetitious striking that is known and can be observed and tested. Micro fracturing of bones causes the bones to fill in the fractures with more bone and therefore, the bone strengthens. Compression and striking increases tissue density as well. This can be observed. Chemical reactions taking place within the blood stream or through transmutation of food and water were wholly unknown although I give points to the Taoists for actually taking a guess at that as what was happening.

Semen and all it's fluidic needs including semenal fluid but not actual sperm is regenerated within 6 hours. sperm cells themselves take about 3 months to regenerate. (74 days on average).

wooden dummy and sam sing type are related to iron gongs and do indeed prepare the student to understand that when they hit, it feeds force back into them as well. some people find this shocking and need such exercises. Force feedback understanding is paramount to any understanding of physical conflict at all. But these are not iron training gongs and so do not follow the same path.

sam sing is a practice that is brought in a little later in the novices experience and mook jong is one of the last things a person learns in their wing chun class and it's likely that the kungfu student who is taught the wooden man has already been around for while right? Some conditioning exists already.

I've redone my IP training without heeding the 100day no sex thing too and well, it made no difference. What made the difference was diligently doing it, day after day. Not the part about not having sex, because on my second go through and all maintenance paths, I have not bothered with retention.

[David Jamieson]

as for increasing will power?

dude...jesus, some thing are self explanatory, so I'm going to guess that you have never willfully stopped yourself from masturbating in favour of doing your work?

Let me enlighten you.

If you willfully do not pursue a passion whim in favour of doing difficult work, then you ARE forging your will and you ARE building your character. you ARE demonstrating will to yourself and coming to understand that you are more than your passion drives, you are more than what your belly cries for. When you can not let your hunger offend you and not let your sexual desire trap you, you have forged some character I would say.

If you do not try to do this, how will you ever?

THAT is how denial of indulgence builds your own will power.

what were you expecting? something you buy in a store and put on and then you have willpower? lol :p

How else do you expect to develop mental strength except by walking through hardships and dealing with them appropriately?

[bawang]

i think the reason for holding in ur liquid babies is because in old days people dont get to eat meat often. in the 70s my family drank canned meat soup with no meat in it and beans. they ate meat once a month or on festivals. my village ate pig once a year on the new year
if u eat like that and try to jerk u b shooting blanks all the time and get no energy

[sanjuro_ronin]

i think the reason for holding in ur liquid babies is because in old days people dont get to eat meat often. in the 70s my family drank canned meat soup with no meat in it and beans. they ate meat once a month.
if u live in that age and jerk all day u b shootin blanks all day

Canned meat chi blasts for the win !!

[David Jamieson]

i think the reason for holding in ur liquid babies is because in old days people dont get to eat meat often. in the 70s my family drank canned meat soup with no meat in it and beans. they ate meat once a month or on festivals. my village ate pig once a year on the new year
if u eat like that and try to jerk u b shooting blanks all the time and get no energy

If only Chinese people had discovered cheese.

[goju]

since sanjuro isnt doing his job ill do it for him

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_uKUJj9VMJpA/SfZQslb9S0I/AAAAAAAAEqo/jn9yFFkzEhc/s400/perfect.bmp
http://imgusr.celebscentral.net/images/users/16934/200633/Jaime_Koeppe%7Cjaime-koeppe-cute-face-fit-body-perfect-butt-megapostjaimethong021gd1.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_S0Gs6lA38ls/SJxS0sk3GmI/AAAAAAAABeA/YccbNjN1SPo/s400/jaime-koeppe-07.jpg

yes lucas i finally found the name of this girl!

[bawang]

u guys really want to find out reason for magic glue retension its easy. eat dry white rice, cabbage, picked beans and dried tofu for 1 month then u understand

yeah with modern nutritious food shipped from giant factories and airplanes u dont need it anymore, but its tradition. u b a man and do it or b a big hairy pusy and skip it. its no big deal. this is a free country u do what u want.
a big hairy pusy. big smelly hairy crab infested pusy.

if tradition isnt followed and u pick and choose how is it a tradition. white people just put a tree in their livingrooms and eat turkey once in a while, but other people take their traditions more seriously. understand this pls thx

[David Jamieson]

u guys really want to find out reason for magic glue retension its easy. eat dry white rice, cabbage, picked beans and dried tofu for 1 month then u understand

yeah with modern nutritious food shipped from giant factories and airplanes u dont need it anymore, but its tradition. u b a man and do it or b a big hairy pusy and skip it. its no big deal.
if tradition isnt followed and u pick and choose how is it a tradition. white people just put a tree in their livingrooms and eat turkey once in a while, but other people take their traditions more seriously. understand this pls thx

I know several chinese, 2 blacks and indian and a midget who all put trees in tehir living rooms and eat turkey now and then.

actually, more and more chinese are putting trees in their living rooms annually!

soon christianity will be mostly chinese.

can't wait for the paintings of the chinese christ!

oh wait...
http://mattstone.blogs.com/photos/asian_icons/chinese-virgin-and-christ-child.jpg

it's been done! :)

[Yao Sing]

Yao,
I don't think that anyone is arguing the benefits of zinc, and the reason I mentioned the dangers of "zinc overdose" is that I know people and people reading this may think that " if more is good, even more is better", know what I mean?

That's typical western thinking, if one is good then two is better. Eastern thinking is to find a balance, not too much or too little.


Now, the view that retention has to do with retaining zinc is a new one because you will not find that in any of the old manuals or teachings, all they said was "retain jing" ( Essences) no zinc.
The you/we are now putting a modern spin on it is fine, but lets not give the impression that is the way it was in the past because there is no evidence of that.

I said it was new. Actually I said I haven't heard anyone make this claim which is surprising to me since all the info is now available but nobody has put 2+2 together. All the do is spout the usually claim that makes no sense when looked at objectively.


In the old days they advocated "no sex" for many sports and even in weightlifting, that is not new, the old boxer adage "women weaken legs" is as old as boxing.

Science has shown that to not be true in the sense of sex before a fight/competition, but it has not shown any conclusions in regards to long term.

Agreed although it has nothing at all to do with what I'm talking about. Have you been reading my posts?


RE" the tissue rebuilding you keep bringing up,
The focus of IP type forging is not tissue rebuilding, that is a "side effect", the focus is bone density increase and yes, zinc helps with that too.

I guess you haven't read my posts, I addressed that point. The slower they heal the less often you can pound, the less often you pound the slower the results and the weaker your IP. You need to optomize repair if you want good results.

What would happen if your hands didn't heal due to zinc deficiency? Or don't you believe zinc deficiency slows healing? Or maybe you don't believe semen loss reduces serum levels of zinc?


As for the zinc lost in ejaculation, the 5 mg is not that much and can be replinshed easily.

Again, the ease at which it could be replenished isn't the issue either. The fact that it's lost and the fact that semen replenishment draws from the body's available zinc at a time when it's needed for healing the hands is the issue. You just keep on dancing around the main point with side issues.

Yes, it can be replenished easily IF you knew that is what's needed. Is there any evidence to support a claim that they knew about zinc in ancient China?


So I ask you this, IF the purpose of "jing retention" was to conserve Zinc, then would a person that supplemtns zinc or eats zinc after sex be just as well off if not more so, since he is increasing zinc (marginally) and since "jing retention" does NOT produce zinc, is it even worth it?

IF the ancients knew about zinc then chances are retention would have been replaced with a food requirement. For all I know there is a suggested food requirement. You guys don't seem to have a problem with the use of external jow in IP training why is it so hard to believe in using internal nutrients? And again, since they didn't know about zinc they didn't know what foods to recommend but I do believe the saw a realationship between semen loss and optimal IP training.

Oh, and the last part about is it worth it. I never did the training so I can't say how much effect it has on IP training. But if you can't increase what you need the least you can do is try not to lose what you have at a time when it's needed the most.

[Yao Sing]

as for increasing will power?

dude...jesus, some thing are self explanatory, so I'm going to guess that you have never willfully stopped yourself from masturbating in favour of doing your work?

Are you serious??? Do you really have a problem with masturbation interfering with you work so much that it takes some hefty willpower to get you focused on what you SHOULD be doing?

Soryy but I've never had that problem. Maybe if you stopped yanking it long enough to actually read my posts you might understand what I'm saying.


blah blah blah about willpower.

what were you expecting? something you buy in a store and put on and then you have willpower? lol :p

How else do you expect to develop mental strength except by walking through hardships and dealing with them appropriately?

So what your saying is that retention during IP training is to build the willpower needed to train IP, right? Ok, moving on now.

[Yao Sing]

Retention in IP training is for:

developing willpower, except that it's done at the same time even though it should be done first so that you already have the willpower when you start the IP training.

Also, other training requires willpower yet doesn't suggest retention as part of the training.

There is nothing to suggest that slapping a bag of rocks requires any great amount of willpower. No more than is needed to hit a heavy bag, lift weights, or train martial arts in the first place.

The willpower argument is proven wrong.

Retention in IP training is for:

energy conservation even though slapping a bag of rocks doesn't require much energy, no more than hitting a heavy bag, lifting weights, or training martial arts in general.

Other MA activities require abundant energy but don't suggest retention in order to have stores of energy available.

The energy argument is proven wrong.

Anyone got something better than what I suggested or have evidence to support the 2 above?

Ok, moving on.

[David Jamieson]

Are you serious??? Do you really have a problem with masturbation interfering with you work so much that it takes some hefty willpower to get you focused on what you SHOULD be doing?

Soryy but I've never had that problem. Maybe if you stopped yanking it long enough to actually read my posts you might understand what I'm saying.



So what your saying is that retention during IP training is to build the willpower needed to train IP, right? Ok, moving on now.

I think you are angry because my views aren't sympathetic to your own. YOu are taking things out of context now and generally just being angry.

That's cool, it will pass. :)

You didn't comprehend what I wrote. perhaps I shouldn't have even bothered trying.

thanks for the lesson. :)

[Yao Sing]

as for increasing will power?

dude...jesus, some thing are self explanatory, so I'm going to guess that you have never willfully stopped yourself from masturbating in favour of doing your work?

Let me enlighten you.

If you willfully do not pursue a passion whim in favour of doing difficult work, then you ARE forging your will and you ARE building your character. you ARE demonstrating will to yourself and coming to understand that you are more than your passion drives, you are more than what your belly cries for. When you can not let your hunger offend you and not let your sexual desire trap you, you have forged some character I would say.

If you do not try to do this, how will you ever?

THAT is how denial of indulgence builds your own will power.

what were you expecting? something you buy in a store and put on and then you have willpower? lol :p

How else do you expect to develop mental strength except by walking through hardships and dealing with them appropriately?


I think you are angry because my views aren't sympathetic to your own. YOu are taking things out of context now and generally just being angry.

That's cool, it will pass. :)

You didn't comprehend what I wrote. perhaps I shouldn't have even bothered trying.

thanks for the lesson. :)

No, I'm angry because you continue to hold on to a ridiculous view that makes no logical sense while refusing to investigate an alternative science based view. That plus you keep going off the subject as if your comments have anything at all to do with my initial supposition. I really expected more from you. At least sanjuro stays fairly close to the point.

Now, maybe you can explain your initial statement quoted at the top because it really sounds like you have a problem where masturbation interferes with getting your work done and you somehow believe everyone else has the same problem.

[Yao Sing]

I've shown where the traditional explanations for retention during IP training doesn't hold up logically while offering an alternative explanation based on science with links supporting the science.

Anyone still holding on to this nonsense and unwilling to a least research the possibility of a scientific explanation is a lost cause as long as they keep their blinders on.

I may not be good at explaining things but I've posted enough plus links that anyone wishing to learn can figure it out.

As long as people persist in furthering some of these nonsense ideas CMA will continue to be laughed at by the more progressive practitioners.

[SoCo KungFu]

IF the ancients knew about zinc then chances are retention would have been replaced with a food requirement. For all I know there is a suggested food requirement. You guys don't seem to have a problem with the use of external jow in IP training why is it so hard to believe in using internal nutrients? And again, since they didn't know about zinc they didn't know what foods to recommend but I do believe the saw a realationship between semen loss and optimal IP training.


See this is the problem right here. Quite frankly, I don't think they had a f'n clue what they saw. Everyone wants to do the respectful thing and they always spout the same line, "well they didn't know exactly what they were looking at but they had remarkable observation that rivals blah blah blah of today..."

You know what? A lot of times, no they didn't. People are grabbing at straws to come up with reasons for why they did things they did, but really I don't think in this case there is any logical reason at all. As you said, they had no knowledge of internal body chemistry. They had no basis which to match an observation with. There was no 2+2 to connect.

You want to know what probably happened? Asians in general, but Chinese and Japanese especially are way too **** culturally repressed. From art to economics to government. Sex is one of those things that cultures all over have had problems in dealing with. Heck look at some of the old Anglo views on sexual activity. And the fact that traditionally Chinese believed that anything in your body from spit to blood carried chi then it only stands to go with it that they would just blanket coat it and throw cum up in the mix too.

Heck they would have no way of knowing how other conditions effect healing times. They just didn't know jack in this regard. Way too many variables...

Sometimes myth is based in truth. But most times its just a bunch of nonsense. This is one of those times.

[David Jamieson]

yeah, you're not winning any converts here. lol

seriously dude, hold onto what you think is right I guess.
You haven;t done any scientific research that correlates it to anmything.

You apparently never masturbate and have no desire to do so and don't seem to understand how sex is a primal drive that is very powerful and MUST be addressed to empower yourself.

You take things out of context, explode them and then come back with some loosey goosey theory of your own about zinc based on a broad scientific look at zinc in context to the human body and it's functions.

I already said: I think the traiditon of semen retention is flawed and not actualy necessary. It's not based on science at all and never was. It is related to antiquated beliefs associated with the cultural ties from which the practice belongs.

so you are arguing for the tradition. I am arguing it is not actualy true after actually having done the method! Have you done it? Have you tried?

If not, I suggest you take it easy on the "you're dense and I have the answer" position you are now apparently clinging too.

vibration increases bone density and tissue density - scientific fact nasa has done plenty of study on this despite it being figured on for a while theoretically, they do this because of bone density loss in extended space travel perplexed tehm and they wanted a solution. Impact and vibration is the solution.

the healing methods of massage and medicine are a no brainer. the massage and dit da medicine together have remarkable efficacy that can be measured. -fact

semen retention - ??? taoist myths and antiquated thinking. Period. Not necessary, but if you choose to follow someone who is teaching you and this is their tradition. Do it. that's how it is in esoterica such as this.

If you don't think sexual denial is a form of will power practice, then I have nothing really to say to you about that. :)

[Yao Sing]

Well I was going to bail out of this since it's going nowhere but why would they randomly throw the issue of sex into IP training and not other types of training (not containing tissue repair)?

You really think they just decided to make stuff up? You sound like Knifefighter when he said they made up forms first then tried to figure out applications for the made up moves later. That's just silly.

Makes me wonder why you bother with CMA since you think their 'wisdom' can't be trusted.

They seemed to do pretty good with astronomy and other 'observations'. Do you really think things are so random and haphazard with no intelligence behind anything?

So you did the IP training without it (could have sworn you said you did just because it was part of the training). Did I ever say it was a necessity? No, I didn't. So you fail to understand what I write AND fail to stay on point and instead argue against a strawman.

And you wonder why I get frustrated. If you don't have the capacity to follow the discusion then stay out of it. And sexual denial and will power have nothing to do with it execpt in your own mind.

Until someone offers an alternate explanation or provide evidence against my opinion then I'm done. So far nobody has answered any of the question I posed or offered any evidence for 'willpower developement' or 'energy conservation'.

If you don't believe in it at all then that's your opinion and it's fine with me.

[SoCo KungFu]

Well I was going to bail out of this since it's going nowhere but why would they randomly throw the issue of sex into IP training and not other types of training (not containing tissue repair)?

Really? Cuz from what I've seen, half the people say XXX and half the people say YYY and then everyone is yelling that crap didn't translate into English or they didn't want to teach dirty gwailo and 1 of 900 other excuses why nobody can seem to get on the same page. Standardization and all that. If they can't get their story straight why should I give credence to it?


You really think they just decided to make stuff up? You sound like Knifefighter when he said they made up forms first then tried to figure out applications for the made up moves later. That's just silly.

Makes me wonder why you bother with CMA since you think their 'wisdom' can't be trusted.

Sorta for the same reason every other culture in human existence has held a fraction of the actual knowledge we have in modern day. And historically people from every culture have been royally f'n things up. Why should I trust their 'wisdom' anymore than any other previous culture?


They seemed to do pretty good with astronomy and other 'observations'. Do you really think things are so random and haphazard with no intelligence behind anything?

You mean things like atomic/molecular organization? Chemical compounds? Micro biology? Or hell how about how they had no clue the difference between a muscle, tendon and ligament? There are some things which can be studied given a specific level of technological accomplishment. They simply did not have that level to know what they were doing in this regard. There are far too many variables; diet from region to region, personal metabolism, issues with blood coagulation which can effect anything from free bleeding to excess bruising...and on and on and on, and we haven't even touched genetic predispositions effecting all the above and more...

To quote Ironman's father, "I am limited by the technology of my time."


Until someone offers an alternate explanation or provide evidence against my opinion then I'm done. So far nobody has answered any of the question I posed or offered any evidence for 'willpower developement' or 'energy conservation'.

If you don't believe in it at all then that's your opinion and it's fine with me.

Alternative explanations have been provided...they didn't know what they were talking about...its just not an answer people like to hear.

[teetsao]

LOL,looking at china's history in population, seems as though either no one practiced retention,or they didnt beleive in it either. they have the largest population in the world and have had for generations.LOL.
i think not having sex for a length of time might make oyu stronger,but not enough to consider,it might also strengthen your will,but if oyu are married or have a significant other,it might also cause infidelity,LOL.
drink some tonic wine and take zma,and continue to have sex with your wife,we did not abstain and everyone of the guys in the I.L.S. can do as much as fasr as iron palm goes as anyone out there. heck my bro. shane lived in new york when he first started and he told me not only did he have sex with his girlfriend,but they went out a couple times a week and drank beer,and he smoked clove cigarettes at the time,LOL, but he has one ell of an iron palm today.
by the way, he no longer smokes.

[David Jamieson]

Well I was going to bail out of this since it's going nowhere but why would they randomly throw the issue of sex into IP training and not other types of training (not containing tissue repair)?

You keep saying this despite what I've posted which is contrary to your posit.


You really think they just decided to make stuff up? You sound like Knifefighter when he said they made up forms first then tried to figure out applications for the made up moves later. That's just silly. People make stuff up now. When there is a lack of knowledge there is void. It is innate human nature to fill the void regardless of teh quality of the filling, hence what we have today, IE: this "debate". :)


Makes me wonder why you bother with CMA since you think their 'wisdom' can't be trusted. There is loads of nonsense propogated through martial arts in all it's iterations. Frankly, what some people consider wise others consider bollocks. Go figure, that's humans for ya!


They seemed to do pretty good with astronomy and other 'observations'. Do you really think things are so random and haphazard with no intelligence behind anything? Here you are trying to make some position about CHinese people and their culture. We aren't talking about that.I haven't once said there was a lack of intelligence.


So you did the IP training without it (could have sworn you said you did just because it was part of the training). Did I ever say it was a necessity? No, I didn't. So you fail to understand what I write AND fail to stay on point and instead argue against a strawman. I've done it with and without,. I maintain without. Do you study or have you trained Iron Palm? or any Iron gongs at all?


And you wonder why I get frustrated. If you don't have the capacity to follow the discusion then stay out of it. And sexual denial and will power have nothing to do with it execpt in your own mind. You still haven't replied as to whether or not you have actually done the course of training. Have you?


Until someone offers an alternate explanation or provide evidence against my opinion then I'm done. So far nobody has answered any of the question I posed or offered any evidence for 'willpower development' or 'energy conservation'. Your opinion has zero value if you do not have the experience behind it. Your zinc loss story is utter bollocks. It is invalid period. there simply is ZERO scientific evidence to back your statement in context to what we are talking about. You don't lose enough zinc to be a detriment to the healing process through masturbation or sexual activity.


If you don't believe in it at all then that's your opinion and it's fine with me. I do believe in it. I've practiced it. I've seen results. How about you? Have you trained any iron gongs at all. Which course did you follow? Why?

Just answer the last ones and we can carry on talking about our direct experiences with the course and method and we can leave all the opinion and guess work out of it entirely.

Please enlighten us about your direct experience with Iron gong training, which path you took and where it got you.

If you have not done Iron gongs, then I would posit it is you who has no place in the conversation.

regards

[sanjuro_ronin]

LOL,looking at china's history in population, seems as though either no one practiced retention,or they didnt beleive in it either. they have the largest population in the world and have had for generations.LOL.
i think not having sex for a length of time might make oyu stronger,but not enough to consider,it might also strengthen your will,but if oyu are married or have a significant other,it might also cause infidelity,LOL.
drink some tonic wine and take zma,and continue to have sex with your wife,we did not abstain and everyone of the guys in the I.L.S. can do as much as fasr as iron palm goes as anyone out there. heck my bro. shane lived in new york when he first started and he told me not only did he have sex with his girlfriend,but they went out a couple times a week and drank beer,and he smoked clove cigarettes at the time,LOL, but he has one ell of an iron palm today.
by the way, he no longer smokes.

To expand on your point, many IP masters had very bad habits and addictions and "semen retention" was a non0issue for them, if you knwo what I mean.

That said, Yao's views are valid and he makes valid points and co-relates the science with his views quite well, his 1+1= 2 view can be correct, even if science has not proven it DIRECTLY ( ie: a scientific study into IP).

Yao, David's view is that the developers of IP probably thought retention was a good idea because of the increase in will power and perhaps even as a test to judge the worthiness of the IP trainee ( if he couldn't handle 100 days he didn't deserve the knowledge) is probably a more valid one then yours based on what we do know about the old times teachers, that said, your view may be the right one too.
We just don't know.

That aside, I agree with many of your points in regards to zinc and why retention, based on that, COULD be a good idea, I just don't think it is one we need to do anymore. The issues that can come from prolonged retention are real, ask any urologist and as such, there doesn't seem to be any valid reason to do it when IF zinc is the issue,m you can just supplement it with some control.

Of course the point of MA forums is to discuss things like this in a fun and informative manner and a civilized one too.

[Dragonzbane76]

http://whodoesshethinksheisanyway.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/gay-darth-vader-starwars-demotivational-posters.jpg

[KC Elbows]

Semen retention does not mean less sexual activity. In fact, most regimens that work it would qualify as more sexual activity for most people.

Explanations based on repression may be revealing more about the speaker's culture than Chinese culture. A system where males have more sexual activity but finish less often seems like a logical turn of events in a system of polygyny, and more based in practical reality than anything else.

What this has to do with iron fist is less interesting.:D

[SoCo KungFu]

I feel I should further expound upon my point. Here's the thing. There are some things which can be easily observed and verifiable. We can see that the use of certain herbs in tea can have beneficial effects. They fact that they were able to come up with this intricate way of nerve stimulation through needle puncture and the associated effects on the body's hormone levels and such, while don't even fully understand now days, but the effects are highly observable. And more over, we're dealing with a deliberate stimulation, be it chemical, needle, massage, etc. Its repeatable, observable, empirical. We can watch animals and learn what plants may be poisonous and which may be beneficial. We can taste and know that bitterness (a sign of alkaloid) is associated with medicine. We can see that things with bright colors and strange odors are often associated with poison. These are observable traits. This whole retention thing is not actively controlled. Your body will use and gain things in its own and they had no way of tracking this. Nor did they have any way of detailing other contributing factors. That taken with their cultural beliefs and the fact that many here even have stated it has made no difference in their practice goes to show its negligibility.

To use an analogy. Medicine men in the Amazon have knowledge beyond any hopes of our ability to comprehend, of the medicinal uses of their native plant life. We will never be able to catalog, study and recreate on our own all their knowledge before that knowledge is wiped out. That said, just because they are geniuses of herbology, I don't believe for one second that he may be the embodiment of a jaguar spirit and can visit me in my dreams, any more so than I believe in a bearded old man in the sky.

The nature of ancient medicine, is that it in many cultures, is often associated with the mystical, spiritual, cultural situations of the people. We come from the most technologically advanced civilization on the planet and yet at one point our Anglo predecessors believed it was proper to bleed the demons out. You have to be able to differentiate the verifiable from the religion, mysticism, folklore. What you choose to do with those other aspects is up to you and this isn't a religious debate so I'm not even going there.

[KC Elbows]

I feel I should further expound upon my point. Here's the thing. There are some things which can be easily observed and verifiable. We can see that the use of certain herbs in tea can have beneficial effects. They fact that they were able to come up with this intricate way of nerve stimulation through needle puncture and the associated effects on the body's hormone levels and such, while don't even fully understand now days, but the effects are highly observable. And more over, we're dealing with a deliberate stimulation, be it chemical, needle, massage, etc. Its repeatable, observable, empirical. We can watch animals and learn what plants may be poisonous and which may be beneficial. We can taste and know that bitterness (a sign of alkaloid) is associated with medicine. We can see that things with bright colors and strange odors are often associated with poison. These are observable traits. This whole retention thing is not actively controlled. Your body will use and gain things in its own and they had no way of tracking this. Nor did they have any way of detailing other contributing factors. That taken with their cultural beliefs and the fact that many here even have stated it has made no difference in their practice goes to show its negligibility.

To use an analogy. Medicine men in the Amazon have knowledge beyond any hopes of our ability to comprehend, of the medicinal uses of their native plant life. We will never be able to catalog, study and recreate on our own all their knowledge before that knowledge is wiped out. That said, just because they are geniuses of herbology, I don't believe for one second that he may be the embodiment of a jaguar spirit and can visit me in my dreams, any more so than I believe in a bearded old man in the sky.

The nature of ancient medicine, is that it in many cultures, is often associated with the mystical, spiritual, cultural situations of the people. We come from the most technologically advanced civilization on the planet and yet at one point our Anglo predecessors believed it was proper to bleed the demons out. You have to be able to differentiate the verifiable from the religion, mysticism, folklore. What you choose to do with those other aspects is up to you and this isn't a religious debate so I'm not even going there.

I understand that's where you're coming from.

I'm just saying, if you are an aging Chinese official with six wives, if you sleep with one a night and finish with each one, you're not gonna be able to service wives 4-6, and you will have trouble. If you sleep with a wife a night, but finish once a week or eleven days or whatever, a healthy amount for a person your age, then you would be considered a good traditional husband in that sense.

Unless people are claiming that men, as they age, can finish with the same frequency as an adolescent, which common sense and research mostly suggests is not true, this is a perfectly rational development for a polygynic culture.

This then presumes that, even with one wife, there is an ideal schedule for how often one should finish, based on their bodies. One wife who is getting the lovin of seven, if its good lovin, will probably be even happier.

Again, to then talk about hitting construction materials is anticlimactic, if you'll pardon the pun.

[SoCo KungFu]

I understand that's where you're coming from.

I'm just saying, if you are an aging Chinese official with six wives, if you sleep with one a night and finish with each one, you're not gonna be able to service wives 4-6, and you will have trouble. If you sleep with a wife a night, but finish once a week or eleven days or whatever, a healthy amount for a person your age, then you would be considered a good traditional husband in that sense.

Unless people are claiming that men, as they age, can finish with the same frequency as an adolescent, which common sense and research mostly suggests is not true, this is a perfectly rational development for a polygynic culture.

This then presumes that, even with one wife, there is an ideal schedule for how often one should finish, based on their bodies. One wife who is getting the lovin of seven, if its good lovin, will probably be even happier.

Again, to then talk about hitting construction materials is anticlimactic, if you'll pardon the pun.

What are you not a Hawkpanther?
http://hawkpanther.com/

[SoCo KungFu]

Isn't it strange that the drug that makes us most likely to screw (alcohol) also makes us least likely to finish? WTF is that about?

[David Jamieson]

hawkpanther = freaking hilarious!

that is the most awesome juvenile thinking to come from an over 40 male EVER!!!

[teetsao]

i only have 3 things to say to that

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eMDBFNwPOU

[sanjuro_ronin]

i only have 3 things to say to that

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eMDBFNwPOU

You lack Chi my Brother:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tmch7HKqQCs

[KC Elbows]

What are you not a Hawkpanther?
http://hawkpanther.com/

That is hilarious! The pic by the cheesy fireplace really makes it!

[Dragonzbane76]

haha the side profile of him with the wimpy eagle claw posture captures it. The sound effect of the eagle/hawk sets it out. :)

[David Jamieson]

ok bastads, who did the quiz? I did and I am "wolfgator".

not quite the d-bag it takes to be a hawkpanther, but dayum! Wolfgator!

[Dragonzbane76]

don't know wolfgator is pretty bada$$ness. It reaks of awesome sauce.

[David Jamieson]

don't know wolfgator is pretty bada$$ness. It reaks of awesome sauce.

That is indeed what she said.

[Sardinkahnikov]

Hahahah, the testimonials are hilarious!




“Best friends share. That was always my philosophy. I lent him my car like 10 times. So, I don’t know, I guess I was kind of surprised when he got mad about me and his fiancée. But, that’s his issue, man. Les Singer’s golden rule, “Your friends don’t matter, you do.”
—Marco K., Hoboken, NJ

“I started with friends’ girlfriends. Did that for about a year. Now I’m on to fiancées. They’re way more adventurous.”
—Mike P., Daytona Beach, FL

“Les Singer changed my life. I’d been in love with my sister-in-law, Sheryl, since the 10th grade. I actually started to resent my brother. Why did he get her? You know. Why not me? But then, after learning the Hawkpanther system, I realized that she could be mine. And now she is. I have a Sheryl of my very own. The real Sheryl. And I’m not mad at my brother anymore. I love him. It’s good. I’m in a good place.”
—Eric Z., Chicago, IL

I'm speechless. Pure comedic genius!