A question for kungfu guys who've fought/ trained alive

[KC Elbows]

What in your kung fu has proven most useful, and what hasn't worked well for you at this point?

Generalities first, specifics next.

Many have talked about this in vague terms, never really seen anyone specifically lay it down.

No training methodology talk here. Technique and approaches to technique. No one cares if you thought chi sao/tuishou was the same as fighting, help your kung fu brothers out with the fruits of your labors.


In taixuquan:


I mostly have been finding that a move generally has a narrow number of useful techniques, the style has the tools that you would expect.

That said, the school of thought that strikes more wing chunish doesn't seem to work, while the school of thought that sticks to the chen stylish approach to striking works much better(go figure, since the style has strong similarities to chen style).

Also, the school of thought that has hooking feet everywhere works, imo, disastrously badly, while the one that lets the foot point forward when it needs to, and hook where it needs to, seems to be much more effective at entering for the throw and way more fluid in footwork itself.

The first step as a strike, common in some circles, is almost always unsuccesful. The fajin version, which is almost more a throw, thus far seems more logical, but it is a move I'm still not happy with, though I intend to focus on it shortly in drills I practice.

[Shaolin]

Practice with an open mind and the willingness to except that my "style" or any "style" has flaws and shouldn't be taken literal has proven most useful. I use the "styles" as a template to develop myself as a martial artist. I use the classical Shaolin to create a base, with all the weapons and forms and concepts and theories it gives me a foundation to able pick up other art forms easier. I've been filling the holes over the years with other systems such as Chen Tai Chi, Kenpo Karate, Krav Maga, Wrestling, Muay Thai, Boxing and BJJ. It sounds like a lot but I got nothing else to do anyways and I can afford the opportunity; I spend my mornings and afternoons at another school learning and then run mine in then evenings.

Laziness doesn't work well for me.

[David Jamieson]

I keep it tight.
I stay away from the big large actions.
I don't kick above the waste, in fact, rarely above the knee.

[KC Elbows]

I've been filling the holes over the years with other systems such as Chen Tai Chi, Kenpo Karate, Krav Maga, Wrestling, Muay Thai, Boxing and BJJ.

Could you define the holes and whick styles you used to fill which holes? Thanks.


I keep it tight.
I stay away from the big large actions.
I don't kick above the waste, in fact, rarely above the knee.

I'm with you on most kicks, though I'll occasionally go higher, but very rarely.

[cerebus]

Use circular or angular evasion against straight-line attacks.

Keep your hands up and your chin down.

Move. Really, just stay very mobile at all time.

Use circular hand strikes only when the opponent is advancing & you're moving away from his force or if he's been stunned, otherwise use straight-line strikes.

Of course these are just a few points and there are no absolutes in combat, but these generalities are a good idea most of the time.

[KC Elbows]

Move. Really, just stay very mobile at all time.





Agreed. I think a lot of people think that fluidity in form is all the fluidity one needs, and then, in fighting, they don't move as soon as they hit one hitch. I'm sure most of us have been there at one point or another.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Comfortable stance, footwork, footwork, footwork, protect oneself at all times,

as for techniques from Kung Fu: Upset punch from clinch, jab, cross or straight punch, serpent punch (very similiar to upper cut) Mantis sticky hands, Elbow strikes, Knee strikes (we have two sets known as elbow sequence and knee sequence where these are learned) roundhouse kick, hook kick, side thrust kick, front thrust kick (teep in Muay Thai), various spinning kicks though I neve liked turning my back, spinning back fist, others I am probably forgetting.

There are techniques I was never good at but have seen others use, Eagle Wing comes to mind (ridgehand). The main thing is getting some good contact sparring going and experimenting what works and what doesn't.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Core basics for the win, always.
If there is one lesson I have learned in the striking arts is that if your strike doesn't inflict enough damage to compromise the opponents ability to **** you up, you are in a world of trouble.

[KC Elbows]

Core basics for the win, always.
If there is one lesson I have learned in the striking arts is that if your strike doesn't inflict enough damage to compromise the opponents ability to **** you up, you are in a world of trouble.

So, what strikes from kung fu do you favor, and which not?

PE aside, of course.;):D

[sanjuro_ronin]

So, what strikes from kung fu do you favor, and which not?

PE aside, of course.;):D

There is no such a thing as a "kung fu strike", but I favour overhands and cross, hooks and uppercust because they suit my body type and power production platform.
Or in english:
I have short, stubby arms and need to get inside and hit people.

I don't do any other specialised fist than the PE, I don't do finger strikes but do wrist strikes and backfist and "knife and ridgehand" strikes.
Elbows too of course.
Pretty much anything anyone learns in the first year of MA training.

[YouKnowWho]

So, what strikes from kung fu do you favor, and which not?

Favor:

- groin kick, head punch combo.
- garb on opponent's shirt, raise up leg, pull out a dagger from the boots, and stab that dagger into opponent's heart combo (same as groin kick, comb hair, hammer fist combo).

[Hardwork108]

Favor:

- groin kick, head punch combo.
- garb on opponent's shirt, raise up leg, pull out a dagger from the boots, and stab that dagger into opponent's heart combo (same as groin kick, comb hair, hammer fist combo).

With the above information in mind, if I see you coming down the street towards me, then I will cross to the other side of the road.

This is called my "survival to live a long life, combo".:D

[Lucas]

be able to take an ass kicking. you fight you get hurt, can u keep going after you take some real damage? how is your recovery mid fight from getting clocked hard, or getting ur ribs rocked and your breath taken? will you keep fighting if someting minor breaks, or throw in the towel?

[Hardwork108]

What in your kung fu has proven most useful, and what hasn't worked well for you at this point?

Generalities first, specifics next.

Many have talked about this in vague terms, never really seen anyone specifically lay it down.

No training methodology talk here. Technique and approaches to technique. No one cares if you thought chi sao/tuishou was the same as fighting, help your kung fu brothers out with the fruits of your labors.


Chow Gar and Wing Chun,

Move into an on coming comitted attack and neutralize there and then by strikes. Wether the moving in is angled or just goes through the opponent, will depend on who the enemy is (strength/size, etc.), and how he attacks you.

I believe that a mindset of not-going back and finding your way through to an un coming attacker, is a treasure of some TCMA methodologies, as it impacts the attacker when he is most vulnerable, hence it is an opportunity to finish the encounter there and then.

This is very useful if you may be facing other attackers, or if you need to get out of there really quick.

I hope that this answers, at least partially, your question.

[David Jamieson]

I use standard punches (jabs, crosses, hooks and uppercuts - call em by their chinese names if you want).

kicks are usually stoppers and jammers.

I head hunt as far as targets go.

I don't go for the constantly mobile thing and prefer a stick and move routine as far as footwork goes. Kinda like a larry holmes approach. no immobile, but not running around for position either.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHSTSh-ypcw

[sanjuro_ronin]

be able to take an ass kicking. you fight you get hurt, can u keep going after you take some real damage? how is your recovery mid fight from getting clocked hard, or getting ur ribs rocked and your breath taken? will you keep fighting if someting minor breaks, or throw in the towel?

That's an "intangiable" dude, its an unknown factor that I have seen work against those that THOUGHT they could take a punch.
Sure the ability to absorb punishment is crucial in a fight, problem is that it is an unknown factor to a good extent.
Fact is, anyone gets it in the right place and they are out.
I think you mean ones ability to get hit without really getting hit.

[KC Elbows]

be able to take an ass kicking. you fight you get hurt, can u keep going after you take some real damage? how is your recovery mid fight from getting clocked hard, or getting ur ribs rocked and your breath taken? will you keep fighting if someting minor breaks, or throw in the towel?

And this is related to the thread how?:D

Care to share what from kungfu you use or do not find useful?

[hskwarrior]

Originally Posted by Lucas View Post
be able to take an ass kicking. you fight you get hurt, can u keep going after you take some real damage? how is your recovery mid fight from getting clocked hard, or getting ur ribs rocked and your breath taken? will you keep fighting if someting minor breaks, or throw in the towel?

you must be speaking about sport fighting. a street fight doesn't last that long.

[KC Elbows]

you must be speaking about sport fighting. a street fight doesn't last that long.

For the sake of this thread, it doesn't matter. If someone found something useful in their kung fu for either, or not, is what is relevant.

There really is no place for a street vs. sport argument in here, because nothing about the thread places a higher value on either thing, the value is in what the person posting found useful and why.

[MightyB]

I find a linking technique called "tu sau" or "intercepting hand" incredibly useful.

We trained it as a sweeping type of motion where your palm starts under the arm near the pit, fingers up, and the back of your hand travels down the length of your arm as your other arm is withdrawn (I'm describing the details of this technique because in a very popular book by a very popular man, he had this technique dead wrong and people who read that book might not know what I'm talking about) - it can be used to move from an inside position to an outside position and vice versa. It's a great technique for setting things up. I use it in Judo and BJJ all the time and I of course use it in live hands training in mantis.

[Lucas]

i see what you guys are saying, my bad on being off topic. I guess i need learn how to comprehend posts more, or pay more attention. its not technique perse, however ive just found from my personal experience that the conditioning we do to be able to take punishment is directly related to how you are going to act/react under punishment. no one can know how well they are going to take a hit right on the button. some might know they take it well or less well than others. but we can be fairly certain, through conditioning techniques, how well we can take a shot to the stomach for instance. sometimes we leave intentional openings based on what we 'think' we can or cannot take. sometimes it pays sometimes it doesnt.

but to actually bring myself on topic. :o

in my personal experience, having solid regulated breathing is very important. aslo being keen on when to breath in when to breath out during exchanges etc. at a point this isnt even considered its automatic, but then so are the rest of our basics. who doesnt remember experiencing what its like the first time to breath in when taking a hard body shot lol

and no its not a kungfu thing, again my bad, its just a fighting thing that i learned from practicing kungfu. :D

[YouKnowWho]

A 45 degree downward "flying side kick" that aiming at your opponent's front leg knee joint (or upper leg) can be a very aggressive and safe entering strategy. When you use your whole body weight to drop down on top of your opponent's knee joint, you will give your opponent a lot of pressure when you enter. Your goal is not trying to break your opponent's leg, but to force your opponent into defensive mode, and forget about attcking you when you move in.

[Lucas]

i really like hooks. basic combos are always the best. jab straight hook, jab straight body hook head hook, etc.

watching sanjuros pe vids makes me jealous lol ive been considering trying to condition one.

on that note, sanjuro, do you ahve both of your fists conditioned for pe?

[yutyeesam]

Mindset, really was when I started fairing better in full contact.
When I decided to lose my fear of getting hit in the face, and stopped flinching is when my techniques started working better.

In that realm, when I started thinking more offense than defense is when I tended to do better, to always think hitting, be it attacking on their preparation or attacking on their retraction.

-123

[tiaji1983]

I havent used my style in a street fight or a competition yet, but sparring, I notice I do better when I make my offence and defence one. If you defend but not attack, you wasted a defend. Do not rush in, wait for the opponent to give you something, and use that against them using the offense is defense tactic. And dont stop once you got them.


oh... and sink...

[Frost]

What in your kung fu has proven most useful, and what hasn't worked well for you at this point?

Generalities first, specifics next.

Many have talked about this in vague terms, never really seen anyone specifically lay it down.

No training methodology talk here. Technique and approaches to technique. No one cares if you thought chi sao/tuishou was the same as fighting, help your kung fu brothers out with the fruits of your labors.


In taixuquan:


I mostly have been finding that a move generally has a narrow number of useful techniques, the style has the tools that you would expect.

That said, the school of thought that strikes more wing chunish doesn't seem to work, while the school of thought that sticks to the chen stylish approach to striking works much better(go figure, since the style has strong similarities to chen style).

Also, the school of thought that has hooking feet everywhere works, imo, disastrously badly, while the one that lets the foot point forward when it needs to, and hook where it needs to, seems to be much more effective at entering for the throw and way more fluid in footwork itself.

The first step as a strike, common in some circles, is almost always unsuccesful. The fajin version, which is almost more a throw, thus far seems more logical, but it is a move I'm still not happy with, though I intend to focus on it shortly in drills I practice.

things that didnt work, protectng the centerline and not the face, keeping both hands in the center and not by the head...learning that one was painful

punching with shoulders down/sunk and chin not tucked..learning that one was painful too

thinking straights would aways beat hooks and curves..that hurt too

learning to fight inclose at sticky/listening hands range where people dont reset after taking a good shot but continue to fight at that range...that was new to me in the pushing/sticky hands i had done once you got a clear advantage you reset...this doesnt happen in real life and is hard to get used to the constant pressure of inclose real fighting

the southern mind set of inclose fighting just watching out for the arms and feet and not body locks and throws meant in the clinch i was always having trouble, i was not used to people not wanting my arms but inseat tieing up the neck/body

things that worked, years of sticky/pushing hands gave me good sensitivity so i could throw and of balance alot of new guys...but the sensitivity skills of those who had grappled for years was much better than anything i had come across

i was good at smothering the arms inclose (aslong as throws werent allowed)

low kicks and side kicks worked well

i ha a very strong lead jab due to all my training, it took people by surprise and put azlot of guys on their backsides

all the dirty tricks (PE fist, headbutts, eye shots, throat grabs) worked well in close once i had a good understanding of clinch fighting

[Subitai]

Hello.... havn't been around in a long time.

Ok, rather than trying to advise something from my own background which may only relate to me, I'll offer a different tip.

In football, a common axiom you may hear a player say is: "Today I strive to get BIGER, STRONGER and FASTER"

Most martial artists have slightly amended this to say "Stronger, Faster and Better tecnique".

But that only remains true while your younger. Two guys who are very athletic can match eachothers moves and patterns fairly easily and many times the outcome is decided by those Youthfull attributes.

For myself, my experience has taught me to change the timing and the rythym of the fight to gain an advantage.

Sometimes slow is very fast or hard to deal with (at all ranges). Like a change-up pitch in baseball.

"O"

[SoCo KungFu]

you must be speaking about sport fighting. a street fight doesn't last that long.

Anyone who's ever been sucker punched, jumped by a group and attempted to be thrown in oncoming traffic (me) knows that's bull****. You're ability to take damage is of great importance. Even more so in a "short" fight because **** happens so fast your window to recover is seconds.

[tiaji1983]

Very True SoCo KungFu!

Thats why we learn Iron Wire, Iron Shirt, or Golden Bell Cover. But all too often schools now adays teach how to defend against an attack, but not to take a hit. If you cant take a hit, sometimes like you said, sh*t happens... Then what?....

[Lokhopkuen]

I keep it tight.
I stay away from the big large actions.
I don't kick above the waste, in fact, rarely above the knee.

I kick anywhere I can find a juicy tender spot head to toe with power and accuracy,
I use large, medium and small actions according to opportunity, distance, timing, plus pure unadulterated aggressive audacity coupled with rock solid technique,
I keep it loose, tight n sometimes just right, alright?

I am predator the rest are food:p
I laugh at kidney stones and detest pinkberry:rolleyes:

[Hardwork108]

Thats why we learn Iron Wire, Iron Shirt, or Golden Bell Cover. But all too often schools now adays teach how to defend against an attack, but not to take a hit. If you cant take a hit, sometimes like you said, sh*t happens... Then what?....

A lot of the MMA-ists here whose experience of the TCMAs is limited to the mediocre do not believe in the effectiveness of the Iron Skills. However, you are making a valid point regarding an area of TCMA training that validates the completeness of the TCMA approach.

[tiaji1983]

:) Well those who know, know. :) Thank you HW108.

[Lokhopkuen]

A 45 degree downward "flying side kick" that aiming at your opponent's front leg knee joint (or upper leg) can be a very aggressive and safe entering strategy. When you use your whole body weight to drop down on top of your opponent's knee joint, you will give your opponent a lot of pressure when you enter. Your goal is not trying to break your opponent's leg, but to force your opponent into defensive mode, and forget about attcking you when you move in.

That's just plain mean:rolleyes:;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Very True SoCo KungFu!

Thats why we learn Iron Wire, Iron Shirt, or Golden Bell Cover. But all too often schools now adays teach how to defend against an attack, but not to take a hit. If you cant take a hit, sometimes like you said, sh*t happens... Then what?....

Those are forms of conditioning, you still need to APPLY them to KNOW HOW to take the shots.
If there is one "secret" to taking a shot, it is hard sparring which teaches you HOW to take, absorb and redirect shots when you DON'T expect them.
You couple hard sparring with the above conditioning and you have a far better chance of survival then depending on only one or the other.

[KC Elbows]

Those are forms of conditioning, you still need to APPLY them to KNOW HOW to take the shots.
If there is one "secret" to taking a shot, it is hard sparring which teaches you HOW to take, absorb and redirect shots when you DON'T expect them.
You couple hard sparring with the above conditioning and you have a far better chance of survival then depending on only one or the other.

Which has zip all to do with style or technique.

Not bagging on you, just keeping it a bit OT.

It surprises me how many people say they drop the inessential from their techniques, but, when asked, only two of us have done so, and only one of that two were dropping anything more than mis-communicated or mis-taught approaches.

Where are these people who constantly talk about how they use what is useful and drop the rest?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Which has zip all to do with style.

It surprises me how many people say they drop the inessential from their techniques, but, when asked, only two of us have done so, and only one of that two were dropping anything more than mis-communicated or mis-taught approaches.

Where are these people who constantly talk about how they use what is useful and drop the rest?

Well, if you want specifics:
I dropped spinning hook kicks and rear leg side kicks because I never used them, though I still train them for fun.
I dropped finger strikes because I don't use them.
I dropped jumping kicks because I don't use them.
I dropped all the throws that I never used in Judo competition.
I dropped most of the forms I knew because I didn't fight like that, but retained moves I liked and train them on their own.
I also should drop answering questions of people that don't say please !!! and need to get laid more !!
:p

[KC Elbows]

Well, if you want specifics:
I dropped spinning hook kicks and rear leg side kicks because I never used them, though I still train them for fun.
I dropped finger strikes because I don't use them.
I dropped jumping kicks because I don't use them.
I dropped all the throws that I never used in Judo competition.
I dropped most of the forms I knew because I didn't fight like that, but retained moves I liked and train them on their own.
I also should drop answering questions of people that don't say please !!! and need to get laid more !!
:p

:D

Thank you and please come again.:p;):D

[sanjuro_ronin]

:D

Thank you and please come again.:p;):D

Why do I feel like I just left a 7-11 ?

[TenTigers]

That's just plain mean:rolleyes:;)
That technique is actually in most of our forms, and in the opening of every one of our weapon sets.
When you jump up to kick, most people lean back to get out of range, opening up their lower body, many even end up straightening their lead leg when they do it.
Nasty.

[sanjuro_ronin]

That technique is actually in most of our forms, and in the opening of every one of our weapon sets.
When you jump up to kick, most people lean back to get out of range, opening up their lower body, many even end up straightening their lead leg when they do it.
Nasty.

In pro wrestling its a drop kick to the knee :p

[MasterKiller]

That technique is actually in most of our forms, and in the opening of every one of our weapon sets.
When you jump up to kick, most people lean back to get out of range, opening up their lower body, many even end up straightening their lead leg when they do it.
Nasty.

Does fear exist in your dojo?

Does pain exist in your dojo?

Does defeat exist in your dojo?

[SoCo KungFu]

Those are forms of conditioning, you still need to APPLY them to KNOW HOW to take the shots.
If there is one "secret" to taking a shot, it is hard sparring which teaches you HOW to take, absorb and redirect shots when you DON'T expect them.
You couple hard sparring with the above conditioning and you have a far better chance of survival then depending on only one or the other.


Which has zip all to do with style or technique.

Oh really? Absorbing and rolling with the force....Seems kinda like taiji to me...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-93HgfzQe4

[TenTigers]

Grabbing a person by the hair has always been a mainstay with me. My first Kenpo instructor used to take me down all the time by my hair, so I developed a liking for doing it to others, when I trained with the ACK guys, hair pulling was the norm, and when I learned Hung-Ga, many techniques involved grabbing of the hair,or hooking the neck/ head. In fact, the opening move of the Mook Yan Jong could be interpeted as that.

[TenTigers]

Grabbing a person by the hair has always been a mainstay with me-especially in barfights with big, husky women of alternative lifestyles. (A Mullet makes a great "handle") My first Kenpo instructor used to take me down all the time by my hair, so I developed a liking for doing it to others, when I trained with the ACK guys, hair pulling was the norm, and when I learned Hung-Ga, many techniques involved grabbing of the hair,or hooking the neck/ head. In fact, the opening move of the Mook Yan Jong could be interpeted as that.

[tiaji1983]

Sanjuro Ronin

I kinda agree, but what my teacher does, is he comes up at random times and strikes you or tries to move you, so your not really ready. He strikes with hands, kicks, staves, and paddles. Or in certain postures he'll try to move you or move your arms. Since you dont know when its coming, you have to always do it right or you'll get hurt. After you trust it and you know what its form, its easy to make it come naturally.

[Frost]

Very True SoCo KungFu!

Thats why we learn Iron Wire, Iron Shirt, or Golden Bell Cover. But all too often schools now adays teach how to defend against an attack, but not to take a hit. If you cant take a hit, sometimes like you said, sh*t happens... Then what?....

Some schools are very good at teaching to take a hit in a fight, they do it through conditioning and sparring.

i have yet to see anyone who trains what you are talking about be able to take a solid body shot from a mid level boxer. Its one thing to train iron shirt, hay gung etc in a class where you have time to prepare, use the breath and get ready for the shot and another to use it in the middle of sparring (and since you admint you have not sparred full contact with sports guys or others how do you know it works?)

The only way the above is demod is when the guy is stationally taking shots (and then never to the head only the body) i would love to see someone demo it by sparring with a good boxer at medium intensity and then telling him when he feels like it to strike full force to the sternum, kidneys, ribs etc with no warning...that wold be a practical demo of the above skills

[Frost]

Sanjuro Ronin

I kinda agree, but what my teacher does, is he comes up at random times and strikes you or tries to move you, so your not really ready. He strikes with hands, kicks, staves, and paddles. Or in certain postures he'll try to move you or move your arms. Since you dont know when its coming, you have to always do it right or you'll get hurt. After you trust it and you know what its form, its easy to make it come naturally.

thats still stationally training, have you been able to use the skills in full on hard sparring not when your teacher walks around holding a paddle as you do your set

[tiaji1983]

Good point. :)

Give me about a month or 2 of practicing it this way, then Ill test it in a sparring session and tell you how it goes. :)

[Hardwork108]

Some schools are very good at teaching to take a hit in a fight, they do it through conditioning and sparring.
That is the "modern" way, or even, ONE way to get results.


i have yet to see anyone who trains what you are talking about be able to take a solid body shot from a mid level boxer. Its one thing to train iron shirt, hay gung etc in a class where you have time to prepare, use the breath and get ready for the shot and another to use it in the middle of sparring (and since you admint you have not sparred full contact with sports guys or others how do you know it works?)
I believe that, and I am being polite here, you have "misunderstood" the Iron Skills.


The only way the above is demod is when the guy is stationally taking shots (and then never to the head only the body)
The logic: Once the body is hardened through Iron Skills, the individual can concentrate better in protecting the head.

Makes sense, no?



I would love to see someone demo it by sparring with a good boxer at medium intensity and then telling him when he feels like it to strike full force to the sternum, kidneys, ribs etc with no warning...that wold be a practical demo of the above skills
The reason that you don't see such sparring, is that most of these skills are not taught, no matter what the individual sifus may claim to teach, hence, even in this forum, martial artist's with the usual "decades of experience" are largely clueless regarding Iron Skill methodologies.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

The logic: Once the body is hardened through Iron Skills, the individual can concentrate better in protecting the head.

Makes sense, no?

One has to be conditioned somewhat to take a shot, but it is more effective and logical to practice evasion and other defenses.


The reason that you don't see such sparring, is that most of these skills are not taught, no matter what the individual sifus may claim to teach, hence, even in this forum, martial artist's with the usual "decades of experience" are largely clueless regarding Iron Skill methodologies.

Why don't you post a video of yourself sparring using Iron Skill methodologies so we can judge for ourselves?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sanjuro Ronin

I kinda agree, but what my teacher does, is he comes up at random times and strikes you or tries to move you, so your not really ready. He strikes with hands, kicks, staves, and paddles. Or in certain postures he'll try to move you or move your arms. Since you dont know when its coming, you have to always do it right or you'll get hurt. After you trust it and you know what its form, its easy to make it come naturally.

That is one of the methods, yes, but the issue is, and you will find this out when you spar full contact more, getting hit WHILE fighting is far different than getting hit while stationary or even by surprise.
That is why a complete program involves stationary work AND dynamic work.

[Hardwork108]

One has to be conditioned somewhat to take a shot,

LOL, and you believe that there is not conditioning training in the TCMAs?


but it is more effective and logical to practice evasion and other defenses.
LOL, and you believe that there are no evasion tactics and other defenses in the TCMAs?

Wow, the plot in TCMA-clueless knucklehead land, thickens.....:rolleyes:



Why don't you post a video of yourself sparring using Iron Skill methodologies so we can judge for ourselves?
And what are YOUR qualifications to judge the validity of the TCMAs?

Plus, my Iron skills are not up to par yet, and I have never claimed them to be!

So, instead of diverting attention from the issues by requesting video clips so as to put yourself in the position of a "judge", which you are hopelessly unqualified to be, you should try to learn more about the different TCMA methodologies.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

LOL, and you believe that there is not conditioning training in the TCMAs?


LOL, and you believe that there are no evasion tactics and other defenses in the TCMAs?

Wow, the plot in TCMA-clueless knucklehead land, thickens.....:rolleyes:



And what are YOUR qualifications to judge the validity of the TCMAs?

Plus, my Iron skills are not up to par yet, and I have never claimed them to be!

So, instead of diverting attention from the issues by requesting video clips so as to put yourself in the position of a "judge", which you are hopelessly unqualified to be, you should try to learn more about the different TCMA methodologies.

It's quite simple, if you post a video of yourself sparring using Iron methodology and it works, it gives more credence to your claims. Of course this will never happen, because you are a pathetic troll with the brain of a fruit fly. Also, it's beyond hilarious to say I cannot judge your skill and right after that say "my iron skills are not up to par yet", so how can you judge what is and is not effective.:confused: I guess your hypocrasy knows no end.

As for judging TCMA, I do it the same as any art or person. Back up what you say with evidence or STFU, it's simple, even for you.;)

[KC Elbows]

I'm sorry, it seems that some might have wandered onto the wrong thread.

Here are some thread searches to try to find the appropriate thread for what some are looking for:

"I'm an ostentatious wanker who thinks the whole forum needs me to prove or disprove everything everyone says, despite the often unclear nature of my own qualifications."

"Where's that guy I'm netstalking?"

"Thread for following someone around in a way that would disturb my wife and bring up painful memories about gym showers and hard wood."

"I like to call people losers, jerks, and idiots online, please don't tell the people I care about, it'll be our secret."

And, of course, the related:

"Nothing we say online is real, but I don't show my wife what I do here."

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'm sorry, it seems that some might have wandered onto the wrong thread.

Here are some thread searches to try to find the appropriate thread for what some are looking for:

"I'm an ostentatious wanker who thinks the whole forum needs me to prove or disprove everything everyone says, despite the often unclear nature of my own qualifications."

"Where's that guy I'm netstalking?"

"Thread for following someone around in a way that would disturb my wife and bring up painful memories about gym showers and hard wood."

"I like to call people losers, jerks, and idiots online, please don't tell the people I care about, it'll be our secret."

And, of course, the related:

"Nothing we say online is real, but I don't show my wife what I do here."

ROTFLMAO !!
Priceless and so well said.

[Frost]

I'm sorry, it seems that some might have wandered onto the wrong thread.

Here are some thread searches to try to find the appropriate thread for what some are looking for:

"I'm an ostentatious wanker who thinks the whole forum needs me to prove or disprove everything everyone says, despite the often unclear nature of my own qualifications."

"Where's that guy I'm netstalking?"

"Thread for following someone around in a way that would disturb my wife and bring up painful memories about gym showers and hard wood."

"I like to call people losers, jerks, and idiots online, please don't tell the people I care about, it'll be our secret."

And, of course, the related:

"Nothing we say online is real, but I don't show my wife what I do here."

well on topic i have listed what i found not to work and what did work well so i can go off topic if thats ok with you :), oh and since when has any thread stayed on course for 4 posts let alone 4 pages, i also found the time spent on various conditioning and body strengthening skills to not be worth the effort put into them, i found this out sparring some local amature boxing champs

[sanjuro_ronin]

i also found the time spent on various conditioning and body strengthening skills to not be worth the effort put into them, i found this out sparring some local amature boxing champs

See, I wouldn't be able to make that call because, all my training has always involved BOTH the TMA methods AND the sport combat method.
Kyokushin for example, develops the body via sanchin and sanchin testing ( and a few other static methods - stay there and take the shot *****) and also via hard sparring.
My Hung Kuen did the samething.
I will tell you this though, those that tend to do one OR the other always seem to have a "Lacking" of sorts:
The TMA that don't do "fight conditioning" don't handle "live strikes" all that well.
And the sport combat guys that don't develop it in a "long term" way, don't hodl on to it after they stop fighting or they pay the price in the long term.

It is not a case of either/or, but a case of using both methods of both have merits.

[Hardwork108]

It's quite simple, if you post a video of yourself sparring using Iron methodology and it works, it gives more credence to your claims.
The fact that a methodology works will remain unchanged wether or not you see a Youtube video of it.

The fact is, if you had had decent TCMA training, then you would have been aware of the functionality of Iron Skills. However, you are like most people here, in that you have had some questionable TMA training and then gone on to become an MMA-ist, as well as a kung fu "critique", it seems...LOL


Of course this will never happen, because you are a pathetic troll with the brain of a fruit fly.
There is nothing wrong with my brain. All I am saying is that you have not got a valid point of reference when it comes to criticizing Iron Skills.


Also, it's beyond hilarious to say I cannot judge your skill and right after that say "my iron skills are not up to par yet",
That is called being honest. You and your MMA inflated ego (and pretentious forum handle/name) can take a page from my book, and stop talking about TCMA subject areas that are way above your heads. Yes, Iron Skills are about "conditioning"...LOL:rolleyes:



so how can you judge what is and is not effective.:confused:

I have seen improvements in my own body. I have also seen the high degrees of Iron Skills achieved by my sifu and his advanced students.


]I guess your hypocrasy knows no end.
It is not hypocrasy, it is INTELLIGENCE and LOGIC, fed by experience in given TCMA methodologies, NOT ASSUMPTIONS, which seem to be the source of the MMA knucklehead community in this forum!


As for judging TCMA, I do it the same as any art or person. Back up what you say with evidence or STFU, it's simple, even for you.;)
I have the evidence that Iron Skills work. You are the one without any evidence, and you are not going to find that evidence in Youtube video clips, but through actual TCMA training and interaction with genuine TCMA masters, not glorified kick boxers in internet forums!

[Dragonzbane76]

However, you are like most people here, in that you have had some questionable TMA training and then gone on to become an MMA-ist, as well as a kung fu "critique", it seems...LOL

copy paste.


can take a page from my book, and stop talking about TCMA subject areas that are way above your heads.
you know what's way "above" your head? REALITY.

I have also seen the high degrees of Iron Skills achieved by my sifu and his advanced students. The one that ran away into the jungle to become a spartan?

fed by experience in given TCMA methodologies, NOT ASSUMPTIONS experience... lol makebelievefu.... douchbaggery......tainfoil hat making class.... those are about the extent of your "experiences"


and you are not going to find that evidence in Youtube video clips,
GASPP>>>> now you are saying that youtube does not have the holy grail of everything on it and it is not god honest fact??????? what is the world coming to???? LOL...

with genuine TCMA masters, not glorified kick boxers in internet forums! you mean the ones you have had skipping around from style to style?? ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

You guys really need to stop this cross-thread stalking, seriously.
It is getting old real quick, on BOTH sides.

[KC Elbows]

well on topic i have listed what i found not to work and what did work well so i can go off topic if thats ok with you :),

I'm sorry, I was working on the premise that when people attempt to hold civil conversations and some people consistently undermine this, those people don't have a leg to stand on in order to complain about their shenanigans being called what they are. My bad.:)


oh and since when has any thread stayed on course for 4 posts let alone 4 pages

I'm sorry, I was working on the premise that the possibility of interesting kung fu discussion was more rewarding to someone who actually had an interest in kung fu than some flame fest by adults who hide their online behaviors from their peers, my bad.:)


i also found the time spent on various conditioning and body strengthening skills to not be worth the effort put into them, i found this out sparring some local amature boxing champs

Okay, closer to on topic, but, to spare the thread the same discussion already held elsewhere, by techniques and style minus training methodology, I was meaning we would get further basing the discussion on the fighting style, not training style, and so base it on the actual techniques used in fighting, and leave the training methodology out of it, especially since so few schools, even within the same style, do the same conditioning, but the fighting style itself is far more consistent in content.

But, if the discussion has to be based around some flame war that four or five people find entertaining that trumps what anyone else may enjoy about the forum, at what point will I have made the attempt so unpleasant that it will stay off of useful threads, since apparently trolling is how this must be done? When the trolls' average age is thirty? Forty? Give me a time frame here.

[KC Elbows]

Again, many talk about finding what is useful in their systems, but, unless everyone is saying all the fighting techniques are useful, and only the training methods have issues, few seem to have content backing their assertion. It's easy to say one knows what is useful and what isn't, but three moves is not a very well informed assessment of one's system, myself included.

It is not important that we each know each other's systems, I'm not expecting to learn except where there is some commonality from a thread like this. It's an excuse to hone our own individual understanding, a crucial thing, even more so if we think we can strut around here like experts and lecture each other on martial realities sight unseen.

I'd be curious to hear, if one describes a form one uses, how much they use: for myself, it would look like this:

Step
1 strike use often
2 strike use often
3 throw, never use, have friends who are more effective with it, picking their brains on it, hopefully will use more
4 use occasionally, lock into a knee
5 throw, planning on drilling it extensively next month, currently don't use, but getting a taste for it
6 Don't use, several differing versions, am trying to hone inn on one that seems more applicable than the others
7 similar to 2, use often
8 use occasionally, kick
9 uppercut, use often
10 takedown, use rarely, imo favors the shorter fighter, but plan on working it a bit next month as well

I'll continue doing this in ten step groupings to give an honest assessment of my use of the one empty hand form I do.

[Dragonzbane76]

You guys really need to stop this cross-thread stalking, seriously.
It is getting old real quick, on BOTH sides.

If he plays the part that I do not exist I will extend the courtesy.

[Hardwork108]

If he plays the part that I do not exist I will extend the courtesy.

Where have I heard that before?.....:rolleyes:

In case you didn't notice, I was conversing with another member of the forum, before you butted in with your ever clueless take on my character and of course, the TCMAs.

You keep stalking me and then say "if he leaves me alone then I will leave him alone...", and it is getting tired.

Again, find a woman and/or get a life. Even better if you can combine that with some actual TCMA studies.

The only reason you have not been run-off this forum already is because most people who post here are Kung fu-clueless MMA-ists such as yourself!

Finally, if you want to go one with your idiotic interuptions then start another thread!!!!

[Dragonzbane76]

You keep stalking me and then say "if he leaves me alone then I will leave him alone...", and it is getting tired.

first off, you butted into my thread earlier and brought your trash in there. I usually do leave you to your own demises, but when you start posting in the threads i started and the people are having a good conversation it's aggrevating. You bring your traditional (copy paste) mma knucklehead, internal methodology crap in there and start insulting those whom cross train then I get a little ticked off.


The only reason you have not been run-off this forum already is because most people who post here are Kung fu-clueless MMA-ists such as yourself!
the only reason you haven't been run off is because everyone feels sorry for the lost soul you are.


Finally, if you want to go one with your idiotic interuptions then start another thread!!!! I did and you butted into it as stated above.
just drop it, stay outta my threads and I will stay out of yours.

[KC Elbows]

when you start posting in the threads i started and the people are having a good conversation it's aggrevating.

You have just choked out irony!


stay outta my threads and I will stay out of yours.

This isn't either of your threads!

Look, I think you're all basically okay folks with a silly hobby called trolling. Not my hobby, 'mkay?:)

I'd be really interested in hearing more about what all of you have to say about kung fu, but I've been around long enough to not need either of you to estimate the value of posts by the other, and that's true of a lot of posters on here.

Hardwork, you and I aren't on completely different pages on some issues. Could we discuss our views on what we like to use from our styles?

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Again, many talk about finding what is useful in their systems, but, unless everyone is saying all the fighting techniques are useful, and only the training methods have issues, few seem to have content backing their assertion. It's easy to say one knows what is useful and what isn't, but three moves is not a very well informed assessment of one's system, myself included.

It is not important that we each know each other's systems, I'm not expecting to learn except where there is some commonality from a thread like this. It's an excuse to hone our own individual understanding, a crucial thing, even more so if we think we can strut around here like experts and lecture each other on martial realities sight unseen.

I'd be curious to hear, if one describes a form one uses, how much they use: for myself, it would look like this:

Step
1 strike use often
2 strike use often
3 throw, never use, have friends who are more effective with it, picking their brains on it, hopefully will use more
4 use occasionally, lock into a knee
5 throw, planning on drilling it extensively next month, currently don't use, but getting a taste for it
6 Don't use, several differing versions, am trying to hone inn on one that seems more applicable than the others
7 similar to 2, use often
8 use occasionally, kick
9 uppercut, use often
10 takedown, use rarely, imo favors the shorter fighter, but plan on working it a bit next month as well

I'll continue doing this in ten step groupings to give an honest assessment of my use of the one empty hand form I do.

Personally I think that the break down of certain forms can be useful. Most of the movements I use in sparring or fighting I learned and practice in basics, but there are combinations and movements one can take from forms and apply.

In my system, we have a form called Outer Tiger, which encompasses a mixture of tiger and crane techniques. The palm strikes and tiger claws I have used often, but usually practice during two man drills instead of as a form. I find that even though there is compliance in these drills, it allows you to feel your target and make proper adjustments. One movement I use is an inside circular block, which wraps around the back of the head (similiar to Thai clinch) followed with palm strikes or ripping techniques with the free hand.

This is just an example but this is what I take from doing forms and Kung Fu from my system, but I still belive basics, sparring, and drilling are the keys to a good fighter, at least for me.

[KC Elbows]

In my system, we have a form called Outer Tiger, which encompasses a mixture of tiger and crane techniques. The palm strikes and tiger claws I have used often, but usually practice during two man drills instead of as a form. I find that even though there is compliance in these drills, it allows you to feel your target and make proper adjustments. One movement I use is an inside circular block, which wraps around the back of the head (similiar to Thai clinch) followed with palm strikes or ripping techniques with the free hand.



Perhaps we misunderstand each other.

I'm using that form as a breakdown because it is the entire open hand system. However, without having done steps in drills and sparring, I would have little to comment on, so I would note that in the case of such steps.

The whole thread presumes, from the title, some testing.

No need for the aliveness soapbox in a thread titled "...for those who trained/fought alive", imo.

[KC Elbows]

In my system, we have a form called Outer Tiger, which encompasses a mixture of tiger and crane techniques. The palm strikes and tiger claws I have used often...

I love palm strikes in certain contexts. In our system, I tend to use a lot of "cutting hands" as well, and am big on some chops.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I love palm strikes in certain contexts. In our system, I tend to use a lot of "cutting hands" as well, and am big on some chops.

Agreed. I love sparring with boxing gloves but one of the downfalls of this is the restriction on using open hand techniques. As for the aliveness, I understand what you were saying and that's not what I was getting at.

On that subject, I find it useful to spar with both boxing gloves and open hand gloves or bare handed in order to work techniques such as palm strikes, tiger claws, ridgehands, ect. that you really can't work with boxing gloves on.

[KC Elbows]

Agreed. I love sparring with boxing gloves but one of the downfalls of this is the restriction on using open hand techniques. As for the aliveness, I understand what you were saying and that's not what I was getting at.

On that subject, I find it useful to spar with both boxing gloves and open hand gloves or bare handed in order to work techniques such as palm strikes, tiger claws, ridgehands, ect. that you really can't work with boxing gloves on.

My wife and I are actually working on a design for gloves that allow for more chops and such. I'll need test subjects, any chance we could send you a couple pairs and get feedback when we're ready, probably beginning of next year?

[Iron_Eagle_76]

My wife and I are actually working on a design for gloves that allow for more chops and such. I'll need test subjects, any chance we could send you a couple pairs and get feedback when we're ready, probably beginning of next year?

Sure thing. Let me know when you get them finished.:)

[KC Elbows]

Sure thing. Let me know when you get them finished.:)

Right now still dealing with design issues. I don't want something as inflexible and useless as the old foam jobies that covered the chopping side of the hand, obviously. This seems to require padding on that side that also covers the striking portion of the palm, but is separate, instead of being formed in one mass with the rest of the hand padding. Then determining a good weight for training that provides protection. Still, I'm determined, because I feel it would help training.

But I digress.

I like chops.:D

[Dragonzbane76]

This isn't either of your threads!

Look, I think you're all basically okay folks with a silly hobby called trolling. Not my hobby, 'mkay?

was speaking of a previous thread. I will drop it with douchbag it has got out of hand lately between both of us.

anyways.

I lean more towards boxing gloves when stand up sparring.

I like the mma gloves more for grappling and clinch work. They are restricted in hand posture movements to a degree but I don't use a lot of them. One of the few posture related movements I do use is eagle wing or ridge hand movements. I've always liked them for shear power and adaptability.

[KC Elbows]

One of the few posture related movements I do use is eagle wing or ridge hand movements. I've always liked them for shear power and adaptability.

Totally with you on these. So applicable.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The only time I train with gloves is when I want to add weight to my strikes, then I use the 16oz and go for 6 rounds of 3 min with 30 sec rest.

[Hardwork108]

Hardwork, you and I aren't on completely different pages on some issues. Could we discuss our views on what we like to use from our styles?

Sure. Do you have any specific questions, or are talking in general?

[Frost]

Again, many talk about finding what is useful in their systems, but, unless everyone is saying all the fighting techniques are useful, and only the training methods have issues, few seem to have content backing their assertion. It's easy to say one knows what is useful and what isn't, but three moves is not a very well informed assessment of one's system, myself included.

It is not important that we each know each other's systems, I'm not expecting to learn except where there is some commonality from a thread like this. It's an excuse to hone our own individual understanding, a crucial thing, even more so if we think we can strut around here like experts and lecture each other on martial realities sight unseen.

I'd be curious to hear, if one describes a form one uses, how much they use: for myself, it would look like this:

Step
1 strike use often
2 strike use often
3 throw, never use, have friends who are more effective with it, picking their brains on it, hopefully will use more
4 use occasionally, lock into a knee
5 throw, planning on drilling it extensively next month, currently don't use, but getting a taste for it
6 Don't use, several differing versions, am trying to hone inn on one that seems more applicable than the others
7 similar to 2, use often
8 use occasionally, kick
9 uppercut, use often
10 takedown, use rarely, imo favors the shorter fighter, but plan on working it a bit next month as well

I'll continue doing this in ten step groupings to give an honest assessment of my use of the one empty hand form I do.

heres my original post which included things that worked and did not work




things that didnt work, protectng the centerline and not the face, keeping both hands in the center and not by the head...learning that one was painful

punching with shoulders down/sunk and chin not tucked..learning that one was painful too

thinking straights would aways beat hooks and curves..that hurt too

learning to fight inclose at sticky/listening hands range where people dont reset after taking a good shot but continue to fight at that range...that was new to me in the pushing/sticky hands i had done once you got a clear advantage you reset...this doesnt happen in real life and is hard to get used to the constant pressure of inclose real fighting

the southern mind set of inclose fighting just watching out for the arms and feet and not body locks and throws meant in the clinch i was always having trouble, i was not used to people not wanting my arms but inseat tieing up the neck/body

things that worked, years of sticky/pushing hands gave me good sensitivity so i could throw and of balance alot of new guys...but the sensitivity skills of those who had grappled for years was much better than anything i had come across

i was good at smothering the arms inclose (aslong as throws werent allowed)

low kicks and side kicks worked well

i ha a very strong lead jab due to all my training, it took people by surprise and put azlot of guys on their backsides

all the dirty tricks (PE fist, headbutts, eye shots, throat grabs) worked well in close once i had a good understanding of clinch fighting

But if you want even more specific then here goes:
most of the animal hand formations, crane, lepoad fists, dragon fists/claws crane wings etc i dropped they are just impractical in a real fight, most of the takedowns and throws i learned i have disgarded, they simply didnt match up to what wrestling could teach me, i dont like using the vertical fist, i kept a lot of the long range choyleefut punches i learned, hunggar/lau gar forearm strikes and hammer fists from yungling ( i also use the PE fist from Bakmei and laugar)

i dropped all the blocks that meant i had to drop my hands away from my face or chase hands or kicks, slipping shielding works much better with good oponents and i never block kicks directly with my hands, i dropped the round kick and front kick i learned as the thai round house and teep were much more powerful and useful (i kept some of the kicks/stomps and the side kick) i have never used the shadowless or heart pirecing kicks.

[KC Elbows]

most of the animal hand formations, crane, lepoad fists, dragon fists/claws crane wings etc i dropped they are just impractical in a real fight, most of the takedowns and throws i learned i have disgarded, they simply didnt match up to what wrestling could teach me, i dont like using the vertical fist, i kept a lot of the long range choyleefut punches i learned, hunggar/lau gar forearm strikes and hammer fists from yungling ( i also use the PE fist from Bakmei and laugar)

i dropped all the blocks that meant i had to drop my hands away from my face or chase hands or kicks, slipping shielding works much better with good oponents and i never block kicks directly with my hands, i dropped the round kick and front kick i learned as the thai round house and teep were much more powerful and useful (i kept some of the kicks/stomps and the side kick) i have never used the shadowless or heart pirecing kicks.

Interesting. The style I do is clinch heavy, so I've not had major problems going at it with wrestlers, though obviously ground work must come from elsewhere. This is not to say a greatly skilled guy wouldn't be a problem, but more that technique wise, I haven't found this to be a problem in the clinch. I tend, however, to agree with lkfmdc on this one, if you want kung fu with good clinch work and throws, good internals are one place to find them, so I feel fortunate.

As for the chisao "reset", I agree that this is self limiting, which is why we don't do that in our tuishou and drills for the most part.

As for blocks and such where the hands are away from the face, considering that throws, clinching, and takedowns are major parts of my style, inside fighting is a must, and it's not unheard of in that range for the hands not to be in front of the face when an opponent's hand gets free, so being able to block a variety of ways(including footwork, especially) has been helpful to me. It's not so much that I'd choose to let my hands be away from my face, but more, most actual technique requires your hands move away from there, and, since one technique doesn't always succeed, one can easily find themselves in a position where a different block is needed, or can actually lead to a throw. That said, most of the blocks are not unusual except for in very small ways that facilitate throwing or bringing the fight in close.

I also find the PE fist useful in its place.

The round kick in my style is hardly discernable from the muay thai round, and the front is quite solid, a lot of speed and weight behind it and not the flicky sort of front. Past that, I use the side and the stomp(really the same kick in my style).

[KC Elbows]

Sure. Do you have any specific questions, or are talking in general?

General a little further, I suppose. Mostly something to pass the time, maybe pick up some unexpected idea here and there from others.

[David Jamieson]

General a little further, I suppose. Mostly something to pass the time, maybe pick up some unexpected idea here and there from others.

Funny how that works.

the other night I was plucking around on the axe and remembered watching Jeff Beck doing single hand harmonics.

I gave it a try and BOOM! Epiphany! Another whole new world of sound opened up in my playing.

I love it when stuff like that happens.

It's the beer of life!

[KC Elbows]

Funny how that works.

the other night I was plucking around on the axe and remembered watching Jeff Beck doing single hand harmonics.

I gave it a try and BOOM! Epiphany! Another whole new world of sound opened up in my playing.

I love it when stuff like that happens.

It's the beer of life!

I don't suppose you saw him playing in the last rock n roll hall of fame concert, he did an instrumental with a number of Beatles tunes that I really liked, and after, I started to mess with the same thing you're talking about. Funny.

[Hardwork108]

General a little further, I suppose. Mostly something to pass the time, maybe pick up some unexpected idea here and there from others.

What was a great eye opener for me regarding Wing Chun's (at least the lineage that I am a student of) and then Chow Gar's, policy of not going back.

In the beginning this did not make sense because of other martial arts influences, but once one gets the hang of it then its wisdom becomes apparent.

It seems that different kung fu styles have this approach but handle them using different methodologies. OF course, this approach will not work if one has not gained the necessary, power (to finsih) and/or fine tuned listening/sensitivity abilities.