Wing Chun historical documents?

[brianlkennedy]

I am starting to do a bit of research on the verifiable history of Wing Chun. The oldest historical documents I have been able to find are training manuals from the 1950s. I realize Wing Chun is older than that! But I am interested in seeing what historical documents exist for the history of Wing Chun. Does anyone have any suggestions? I am aware of, and have seen, training manuals for Crane Boxing that date from the 1800s and manuals for "Short Arm Boxing" from the 1700s.

take care,
Brian

[sanjuro_ronin]

You are opening up a can of worms!
Don't you frequent the WC forum?
Those guys are crazy !!
LOL !

[brianlkennedy]

No fooling---but we historians go where angels fear to tread. Anyway it could not be any worse than the abuse Stan Henning got from the "hard core tai chi-ers" when he came out and said historians should stop parroting that horse**** about Taoist sages inventing taiji. He used to routinely get called out to "push hands death matches".

yours in "truth in history",
Brian

[sanjuro_ronin]

No fooling---but we historians go where angels fear to tread. Anyway it could not be any worse than the abuse Stan Henning got from the "hard core tai chi-ers" when he came out and said historians should stop parroting that horse**** about Taoist sages inventing taiji. He used to routinely get called out to "push hands death matches".

yours in "truth in history",
Brian

"push hands death match" !!!
ROTFLMAO !!!
Priceless, I have to use it !

[Wayfaring]

No fooling---but we historians go where angels fear to tread. Anyway it could not be any worse than the abuse Stan Henning got from the "hard core tai chi-ers" when he came out and said historians should stop parroting that horse**** about Taoist sages inventing taiji. He used to routinely get called out to "push hands death matches".

yours in "truth in history",
Brian

Hey. Watch what you say there historian. Around here we call them "chi sau death matches".

LOL. :D:D:D

[LoneTiger108]

And apparently I have trained in "the ring of death"!! :D

Good luck with the research. You might like to start here: http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53075

[brianlkennedy]

Good Morning Lone Tiger,
Thanks much for the link to that thread. I appreciate that and I took a scan through it this morning.....but alas....there is not one mention of any historical document there. What it is, is a bunch of links to modern day websites in Chinese yacking about this and that but without any historical documents (or any other proof as far as that goes).

I actually kind of think that maybe the solid historical evidence for Wing Chun's history may not go much beyond the late 1940s or early 1950s. I said that initially as a joke but we shall see. And again when I say that I am not implying that Wing Chun only came into existence then, but our solid (or even semi-solid) records do not go earlier than that.

What got me started on all this was a discussion I had with Stan Henning about the origins of various "Southern Shaolin" schools and how there had been all the horse**** about "Secret Societies", "Black Flags", "Red Junks" and all the rest. The Southern Shaolin systems really do have colorful (albeit fictional) "histories".

Let me be quick to add, I am not disrespecting South Shaolin systems, I started hung gar in 1976 and have always admired all the Southern Shaolin systems.

take care,
Brian

[t_niehoff]

Two people you might wish to contact are Rene Ritchie (at reneritchie.com or wingchunkuen.com) and Hendrik Santos (on this forum). Rene, if anyone, will know what historical documents exist. And Hendrik has, I believe, some documents that go back to one generation removed from the Red Boat era.

[LoneTiger108]

... I actually kind of think that maybe the solid historical evidence for Wing Chun's history may not go much beyond the late 1940s or early 1950s. I said that initially as a joke but we shall see. And again when I say that I am not implying that Wing Chun only came into existence then, but our solid (or even semi-solid) records do not go earlier than that.

I would tend to agree with you there Brian, as my own teacher said, "anything before Sigung are just stories!" ;)

FWIW There are many, many pictures from Ip Mans family that were taken in HK during the 1950's and maybe they are the strongest actual historical evidence we will ever have access to...

[Shadow_warrior8]

Good Morning Lone Tiger,
Thanks much for the link to that thread. I appreciate that and I took a scan through it this morning.....but alas....there is not one mention of any historical document there. What it is, is a bunch of links to modern day websites in Chinese yacking about this and that but without any historical documents (or any other proof as far as that goes).

I actually kind of think that maybe the solid historical evidence for Wing Chun's history may not go much beyond the late 1940s or early 1950s. I said that initially as a joke but we shall see. And again when I say that I am not implying that Wing Chun only came into existence then, but our solid (or even semi-solid) records do not go earlier than that.

What got me started on all this was a discussion I had with Stan Henning about the origins of various "Southern Shaolin" schools and how there had been all the horse**** about "Secret Societies", "Black Flags", "Red Junks" and all the rest. The Southern Shaolin systems really do have colorful (albeit fictional) "histories".

Let me be quick to add, I am not disrespecting South Shaolin systems, I started hung gar in 1976 and have always admired all the Southern Shaolin systems.

take care,
Brian

Lets us see you do better

[Paul T England]

Hi,

The problem is that many of these documents are hard to date.

I have a photocopy of old books given to me by Lun Kai sifu in Foshan.. Handed down from Leung Jan and Ip Man by all accounts but how do we know when they started!!!

All I know is that modern Chinese language teachers say its very old Chinese and can only identify some words...maybe old hong kongers could read a bit more.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[LoneTiger108]

All I know is that modern Chinese language teachers say its very old Chinese and can only identify some words...maybe old hong kongers could read a bit more.

Wouldn't Sifu Kwok be able to help?? From what I understand of Leung Jans book that the Ip Family have 'inherited' it is more recipes and diagnostic notes for medical purposes. No Wing Chun in there at all. But I may be wrong! :confused:

[HumbleWCGuy]

I am starting to do a bit of research on the verifiable history of Wing Chun. The oldest historical documents I have been able to find are training manuals from the 1950s. I realize Wing Chun is older than that! But I am interested in seeing what historical documents exist for the history of Wing Chun. Does anyone have any suggestions? I am aware of, and have seen, training manuals for Crane Boxing that date from the 1800s and manuals for "Short Arm Boxing" from the 1700s.

take care,
Brian

Lineage and tradition are so important to Chinese and by extension to TCMAists that you will encounter so much truth mixed with flat out lying to lend credibility to lineages, it just isn't worth the trouble. I just teach the YIM WING CHUN legend (as taught to me), along with some family specific legends, and leave it at that. Moreover, I tell my students that this story could be the gospel truth or it could be as true as a Paul Bunyan tail.

[brianlkennedy]

Thanks much for the various leads and insights. I appreciate people taking the time to respond. And if anyone runs across anything please let me know.

take care,
Brian

[Cartwright]

I would suggest contacting Dr Leung Ting. He has done a lot of research into the history and if anyone has found any historical documents, it would probably be him. He also seems to doubt the official history of Ng Mui and Yim Wing Chun and all that stuff.

[Hendrik]

http://www.w1ng.com/wing-chun-kuen-and-the-secret-societies/
http://www.w1ng.com/wing-chun-kuen-and-the-red-junk-opera/
http://www.w1ng.com/lee-man-mao-li-wenmao-of-the-red-boat-opera/
http://www.w1ng.com/shanghai-connection-wing-chun-dim-chun-siu-do-wui/

[brianlkennedy]

I wanted to say "thanks" to folks who helped me out on this thread. Looks like the oldest Wing Chun historical materials only date from about the 1950s or so. That kind of matches up with the idea that Wing Chun really only broke off of Crane Boxing in the late 1940s.

In any event thanks much.

take care,
Brian

[Hendrik]

I wanted to say "thanks" to folks who helped me out on this thread. Looks like the oldest Wing Chun historical materials only date from about the 1950s or so. That kind of matches up with the idea that Wing Chun really only broke off of Crane Boxing in the late 1940s.

In any event thanks much.

take care,
Brian



Yes, WCK is part of White Crane however the story is more involve and it happen long before 1940.

Very likely SLT was created in mid to late 1700, around 1770?



1, Cho family's Yik Kam WCK salutation and stanza is as old as 1850. It matches 1850's Hung Mun, Lee Man Mau, and Shai Hai's small knife union uprising as one could find in Shang Hai today. One could read from from the above Rene's articles.

2, Yik Kam's WCK SLT training instruction or Kuen Kuit is as old as 1850 or early 1800.



3, Leong Jan and Yik Kam all exist in 1850. as one could check in Fung family history, and also CLF's history, and Cho family.


4, White crane itself evolve in late 1700 to early 1800. and we know today based on the Yik Kam WCK SLT training Instruction, the White Crane within WCK is the older version instead of the post 1800 evolution version.

Also, the way how WCK uses White Crane's Center line concept and Five element hands is different then White Crane due to the involve of Emei 12 Zhuang's strategy. and also Due to Emei 12 Zhuang strategy, SLT was created with Snake body to generate power. and that is different then the hard White Crane of Fang Chi Niang. Thus, SLT doesnt use the San Chin Stance or Sam Cien Po in Fujian like in San Chin set or Ngo Cho kuen.

SLT using the nature letter two stance, it is an art design to follow the nature of human flow.



All the above has been known for a few decades.


ALL of the DATA ABOVE is FREE and OPEN for any one who is strickly doing Research for WCK.

IE UNIVERSITY and OR ASIAN ART RESEARCH CENTER.


However, NOT SUPPORTING any individual linage or business associated research which is for their benifit NON public purpose.

[ghostexorcist]

Lets us see you do better
I hope that is a friendly request. Brian is a recognized martial historian with two published books on the subject.

[brianlkennedy]

I am sorry, I may not have made myself very clear what I am asking. I am asking for contemporaneous historical documents discussing the history of wing chun. By "contemporaneous historical documents" I mean such things as newspaper articles, training manuals, diaries that were written at the same time as the events they discuss. And they need to be somewhat "credible" (forged martial arts documents are a minor industry in China).

I appreciate folks posting all those websites----but all they contain is modern day talk about this and that. That is not historical research. And I stand by what I said. And when I say that I am not trying to be a hard ass about the history, I am simply making a good faith effort to see what is out there. I did the same thing for hung gar a few years ago and all I came up with was three Republican Era manuals (from the 1930s). Many/most of the southern Shaolin systems do not have very long, documented, history. That fact is not a mark against them, it is simply a historical fact.

And I could well be wrong, maybe somebody out there has some cache of historical Wing Chun documents----I just have not seen them.

take care,
Brian

[LSWCTN1]

I am sorry, I may not have made myself very clear what I am asking. I am asking for contemporaneous historical documents discussing the history of wing chun. By "contemporaneous historical documents" I mean such things as newspaper articles, training manuals, diaries that were written at the same time as the events they discuss. And they need to be somewhat "credible" (forged martial arts documents are a minor industry in China).

I appreciate folks posting all those websites----but all they contain is modern day talk about this and that. That is not historical research. And I stand by what I said. And when I say that I am not trying to be a hard ass about the history, I am simply making a good faith effort to see what is out there. I did the same thing for hung gar a few years ago and all I came up with was three Republican Era manuals (from the 1930s). Many/most of the southern Shaolin systems do not have very long, documented, history. That fact is not a mark against them, it is simply a historical fact.

And I could well be wrong, maybe somebody out there has some cache of historical Wing Chun documents----I just have not seen them.

take care,
Brian

I dont think that anyone will ever receive any documents from Leung Jan, and maybe - if they did - will ever allow carbon dating :eek:

although i believe there are documents in the Yuen family from the 20's/30's?

prior to that, bear in mind the supposed historical culture of tcma's. taught to the lower classes almost exclusively, where education was not necessarily widespread.

incidentally, does anyone know the oldest documents relating to tcm? just an afterthought...

[ghostexorcist]

[...]

incidentally, does anyone know the oldest documents relating to tcm? just an afterthought...
Documents pertaining to the Lady of Yue (5th cen. BCE) mention various techniques like closing the gap and internal arts.

The martial historian Stan Henning (who is mentioned above) stated in one of his papers:


The Han History Bibliographies – completed around 90 A.D.) provide the first broad definition of the martial arts, which constituted one of four categories under the major heading, “Military Writings”. They are defined simply as “skills’ or “techniques” to practice use of the hands and feet, and to facilitate the use of weapons to gain victory through offense or defense. Based on the bibliographical listing, these skills included archery, fencing, boxing, and even an ancient game of football or cuju 蹴鞠 for agility and maneuver in the field. The entry on boxing or shoubo 手搏as it was called, appears to be the earliest clearly identifiable reference to Chinese boxing. Commentaries on the entry differentiate shoubo from wrestling, which was categorized as a military sport as opposed to a combat skill.” Wang Xiangqian 王先謙, ed., Hanshu Buzhu 漢書補注 (Annotated Han History), Changsha, 1901, juan 30, p. 64.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

incidentally, does anyone know the oldest documents relating to tcm? just an afterthought...

If you meant Chinese Medicine, it's the Ma Wang Dui texts from about 260BC.

If you meant CMA, I don't know.

[Hendrik]

Wing Chun's SLT Related to the following book.

“The Emei Treasured Lotus Canon”. From Song dynasty;
This book is currently held in a Beijing museum.

[ghostexorcist]

Wing Chun's SLT Related to the following book.

“The Emei Treasured Lotus Canon”. From Song dynasty;
This book is currently held in a Beijing museum.

Can you please elaborate?

[Hendrik]

Can you please elaborate?

Please read my previous posts in details.

[chusauli]

I am sorry, I may not have made myself very clear what I am asking. I am asking for contemporaneous historical documents discussing the history of wing chun. By "contemporaneous historical documents" I mean such things as newspaper articles, training manuals, diaries that were written at the same time as the events they discuss. And they need to be somewhat "credible" (forged martial arts documents are a minor industry in China).

I appreciate folks posting all those websites----but all they contain is modern day talk about this and that. That is not historical research. And I stand by what I said. And when I say that I am not trying to be a hard ass about the history, I am simply making a good faith effort to see what is out there. I did the same thing for hung gar a few years ago and all I came up with was three Republican Era manuals (from the 1930s). Many/most of the southern Shaolin systems do not have very long, documented, history. That fact is not a mark against them, it is simply a historical fact.

And I could well be wrong, maybe somebody out there has some cache of historical Wing Chun documents----I just have not seen them.

take care,
Brian



Asking for information on a discussion board is not historical research, either. What needs to be done is to visit places like the Fung Family in Gu Lao viillage for Leung Jan information, then look at the oral lore of WCK and then assess a link that happened in the 1850's to the Tai Ping Tian Guo, Opera Ban, Emei documents, White Crane documents and the like, as well as a trip to Fujian County records, National records, etc.

We know its a big project with much funding necessary.

[Hendrik]

Asking for information on a discussion board is not historical research, either. What needs to be done is to visit places like the Fung Family in Gu Lao viillage for Leung Jan information, then look at the oral lore of WCK and then assess a link that happened in the 1850's to the Tai Ping Tian Guo, Opera Ban, Emei documents, White Crane documents and the like, as well as a trip to Fujian County records, National records, etc.

We know its a big project with much funding necessary.



Yup! totally Agree.