End the Debate... What makes a Style?

[MightyB]

I have a proposition.

IMO Every "style" only has a few key identifying techniques. I studied 7* for years. As I look at it, to me 7* is only diu (hook), ou lou chou (hook, control, punch as one motion), tu sau (intercepting hand as a linking technique), and fan che (overhand strikes). (might throw in "waist chopping" or yu jom). Those are pretty much it as far as unique to 7* movements. Everything else is in everything else.

So here's the proposition. To me, how can you say you're 7* or a master of 7* if you cannot demonstrate the key movements under pressure? Makes things plain and simple - you are not a sifu if you cannot, you're a LARPER. If all styles adopt this mindset, then TCMA is better for it. Instead we have so much garbage... too many forms and too much tea house philosophies that we think make a sifu. They don't. Application of skill matters.

So, what makes a style? Do you agree with my opinion? Why, why not?

[hskwarrior]

A car is only a car. it cannot drive itself. it is the PERSON that makes any style.

[MightyB]

A car is only a car. it cannot drive itself. it is the PERSON that makes any style.

no answer...? you said nothing. The question is "What, for you, defines a style?".

I don't even think so much in terms of style anymore. Not being a BL wannabe, just saying that the concept of style isn't defined very well and is more of a problem than anything.

[lkfmdc]

IMO Every "style" only has a few key identifying techniques. I studied 7* for years. As I look at it, to me 7* is only diu (hook),


This exists in MANY styles





ou lou chou (hook, control, punch as one motion),



Seen eagle claw much :D again, not "unique" to mantis



and fan che (overhand strikes).


According to late 7 star master Jew Luen, this is actually Faan Ji Myuhn technique, "stolen" for mantis :D

There are only two "things", things that work and the crap. I fyou claim to do "martial arts" you should focus on the things that work and be able to make them work. If you train them day and night and they can't seem to work, maybe it isn't you, maybe it is the technique

[MightyB]

This exists in MANY styles




Seen eagle claw much :D again, not "unique" to mantis



According to late 7 star master Jew Luen, this is actually Faan Ji Myuhn technique, "stolen" for mantis :D

There are only two "things", things that work and the crap. I fyou claim to do "martial arts" you should focus on the things that work and be able to make them work. If you train them day and night and they can't seem to work, maybe it isn't you, maybe it is the technique

not disagreeing on anything you said (7* is basically an old school MMA), but it's the concentration on those techniques that I mentioned that IMO are what 7* is all about. Taking it a step further in the weird wacky world direction, the diu in 7* is in Judo:eek:

[Iron_Eagle_76]

The glow.............if you don't have the glow................your style sucks!!http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p84/Cannon31/shonuff.jpg

[lkfmdc]

not disagreeing on anything you said (7* is basically an old school MMA), but it's the concentration on those techniques that I mentioned that IMO are what 7* is all about. Taking it a step further in the weird wacky world direction, the diu in 7* is in Judo:eek:

I've trained fighters for 15 years now, so I've had hundreds so far. They all learned the same basic curriculum from me with the same basic drills yet all of them fought differently. Because they all have different things that appeal and/or work for them. So was each one a different "style"?

Styles came about because different teachers stressed what they liked and/or worked for them. new styles come from their students who had other experiences and were inclined to different directions. Today we are hung up on "styles" but really it's all BS

[hskwarrior]

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/img/2007/world/2310_levitation_9_lg.jpg

[David Jamieson]

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/img/2007/world/2310_levitation_9_lg.jpg

are people so stupid they don't bump hip to that suspiscious looking pole he's holding? lol with the bar that goes back and forms a seat under him?

lol

actually, I've seen this scam before with an Indian Fahkir. There are many gullible and stupid over religious types who buy into this sort of nonsense like levitation, touch healing, faith healing etc.

Lazy minds produce these followers.

(I know you don't buy that crap Frank, I'm just commenting on it. :) )

[Dragonzbane76]

actually, I've seen this scam before with an Indian Fahkir.

i've seen this as well before. They did a doc. on TV somewhere, can't remember, that had the exact same "trick" performed. The funny thing, like you pointed out, was that a lot of people believed it.

[hskwarrior]

Originally Posted by: David Jamieson (I know you don't buy that crap Frank, I'm just commenting on it. )

LMAO...of course i NEVER believe the mumbo jumbo. plus i saw the documentary on how they actually do that hahahahahaha

[sanjuro_ronin]

What makes a style?
Take a system and add your personal style to it and voila, you have a style.
Mike Tyson had a style of boxing, as did Roy Jones Jr.
The moment anyone personalizes ANYTHING it becomes a "style" of doing that thing.

[hskwarrior]

hence "my STYLE" :D

[MightyB]

What makes a style?
Take a system and add your personal style to it and voila, you have a style.
Mike Tyson had a style of boxing, as did Roy Jones Jr.
The moment anyone personalizes ANYTHING it becomes a "style" of doing that thing.

but just for the sake of argument - there are people who earnestly want to represent TCMA and I think that's all good. I just think that in order to do that, they really have to define why they think that they can apply whatever style name to what they're doing.

I say that they should have to do it in a way other than memorizing forms or reciting terminology because that leads to flowery fists and embroidery kicks. But - in the TCMA world, so much emphasis is placed on forms knowledge, and jing, and internal cultivation, and - you name it... except, can that person do what's in all of their darn forms? And the answer is most likely "no, they can't".

Brendan Lai was a bad @ss. He embodied 7* with basically one move which he mastered to perfection and could use it in about any situation and that was ou lou choi. If you were a kickboxer - he'd nail you with it. If you were a grappler - he'd nail you with it - if you did wing chun - he'd nail you with it - heck, if you claimed you did mantis - he'd nail you with it. He could nail anyone with it (and then he'd follow through with something nastier). That to me said more than anything that he was a master of mantis.

# of forms, terminology, and whatever else mattered less than that one move.

[David Jamieson]

My style is the bomb, the bomb, ba dang ba dang diggy diggy.

also, I have a 20 lb crowbar.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Brendan Lai was a bad @ss. He embodied 7* with basically one move which he mastered to perfection and could use it in about any situation and that was ou lou choi. If you were a kickboxer - he'd nail you with it. If you were a grappler - he'd nail you with it - if you did wing chun - he'd nail you with it - heck, if you claimed you did mantis - he'd nail you with it. He could nail anyone with it (and then he'd follow through with something nastier). That to me said more than anything that he was a master of mantis.

I have only seen clips of demos so I will take your word for that and more so, because I myself have seen just that, Judo guys that with one (main)throw can dominate the game, boxers that can win a championship on one hand and so forth.
So that would be Sifu Lai's (RIP) style of 7* mantis.
He could represent ALL of 7*, but i doubt that he would have wanted to.
We represnet OURSELVES and OUR PERSONAL STyle, no one else.
My Hung Kuen is MINE and is very little like my Sifu's, as is my kyokushin, hence MY STYLE of fighting.

[hskwarrior]

in the TCMA world, so much emphasis is placed on forms knowledge, and jing, and internal cultivation, and - you name it... except, can that person do what's in all of their darn forms? And the answer is most likely "no, they can't".

if the background of the teacher is only studio work, then his approach will always be based upon theory. BUT....and i confidently say BUT........there are those schools that that have taken their gung fu to the streets to test it out. some schools demanded that you do this. but then, i only hear this coming from the hardcore types, and the wannabe hardcore types. in between are the ones who focus on the great number of forms, stuff that only old people practice, esoterics, and all that other mumbo jumbo.

In my opinion, it was always the sifu's who've been tied to the streets in one way or another who take their gung fu seriously. Brendan Lai was arguably one of the badest Preying Mantis people i've ever seen....IMO he was hard core.

its my opinion that MMA was a major wake up call for TCMA....those who don't meet the demand will fade away. i think forms took over cause our societies went through a peaceful period. no fighting was needed therefor forms took over. how many you had, how pretty they looked, forgetting the greater importance of whether or not you can actually use what you've been trained to do.

My sifu aways said "it's not about the quantity of forms, its how well you know whats in them".

The name of my TCMA is Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut, but my personal style is Street mixed with the basic hands and footwork of HSCLF. I use what works for me. i never eliminate, but i modify certain aspects of my system to work for ME.

[MightyB]

I did not study under Master Lai. My 7* lineage is strictly Chung. I use Lai as an example because his ou lou choi was sooooooo fast mean and bad @ss. It was an offensive weapon, a defensive weapon, heck, I think he could use it to fix cars he was so good with it. But, I think as an example of representing a style - he had the right idea. It was with perfection of application under pressure. His forms were d@mn good, you can see for yourself on youtube. But his ou lou choi was unmatched in the mantis world.

[mooyingmantis]

but just for the sake of argument - there are people who earnestly want to represent TCMA and I think that's all good. I just think that in order to do that, they really have to define why they think that they can apply whatever style name to what they're doing.

I say that they should have to do it in a way other than memorizing forms or reciting terminology because that leads to flowery fists and embroidery kicks. But - in the TCMA world, so much emphasis is placed on forms knowledge, and jing, and internal cultivation, and - you name it... except, can that person do what's in all of their darn forms? And the answer is most likely "no, they can't".

Brendan Lai was a bad @ss. He embodied 7* with basically one move which he mastered to perfection and could use it in about any situation and that was ou lou choi. If you were a kickboxer - he'd nail you with it. If you were a grappler - he'd nail you with it - if you did wing chun - he'd nail you with it - heck, if you claimed you did mantis - he'd nail you with it. He could nail anyone with it (and then he'd follow through with something nastier). That to me said more than anything that he was a master of mantis.

# of forms, terminology, and whatever else mattered less than that one move.

In the 1800s and 1900s TCMA developed into forms based arts. Forms were the foundation of most TCMA, for good or for bad. The forms of Hung Gar, Choy Li Fut, Tanglangquan and Wing Chun can only be verifiably traced back to this period.
Does one really need to know the 600 Choy Li Fut forms or the 100 Seven Star forms to understand the style? Of course, those who learned all the forms swear you too must know them to be a master of that style. Though I definitely disagree. It only created a system of haves and have nots. I have it, thus I am special. You don't have all the material, so you are not as special as me.

If Seven Star PM forms are anything, they are a constant rehashing of the same material. I'm not saying that is necessarily bad, it certainly emphasizes muscle memory. But drilling the same oft repeated techniques does the same thing.

IMHO an ability to demonstrate and successfully apply numerous examples of the "traditional" Twelve Keyword Theories of Seven Star PM is much more important than how many forms you can demonstrate. Application to me is EVERYTHING!

I think it will be interesting to see what will be considered TCMA in 2100 - 2200 C.E. and who the major movers and shakers will be considered to have been. Who today will be seen as the new Lam Sai Wing, Yip Man and Luo Guang Yu of our era?

[MightyB]

IMHO an ability to demonstrate and successfully apply numerous examples of the "traditional" Twelve Keyword Theories is much more important than how many forms you can demonstrate. Application to me is EVERYTHING!


This is something that I'm questioning now... I look at the 12 key words, the 8 hard, the 12 soft etc. and I think that it's a lot of good "tea talk" for after class or for writing books. Really I think that the most important philosophy was - relax, use soft to lead the hard, but use hard technique to kill. Everything else was a good way to have conversation long into the night. This would be a good conversation on the mantis forum...

Anyway, like I said when I started the thread, what does it take to claim mantis? We use industry jargon, forms, etc... not a lot of live application. Sure people show application, but it's pre-rehearsed. That's not good enough for me anymore... it's just not. I say master ou lou choi, diu sau, and tu sau... that's mantis. No more, no less. If you can do those under pressure, consistently, and live - that's mantis. So many techniques build on that foundation.

[YouKnowWho]

So, what makes a style? Do you agree with my opinion? Why, why not?

IMO, a style should contain the folowing:

- 2 men drills
- solo drills
- equipment training
- defense and counter
- combo
- principle and theory

Let's use the 7* diu (hook), as example.

- How do you train your diu with your partner in school?
- How do you train your diu at home when you don't have partner?
- How do you train your diu by using weight equipment to enhance your ability?
- When your opponent uses diu on you, how do you defense and counter it?
- If your opponent escape out of your diu, what will be your next continuous move?
- What's the principle (theory) used in diu?

If you can have all those 6 answers for every moves in your style, you will have a good system.


Brendan Lai was a bad @ss. He embodied 7* with basically one move which he mastered to perfection and could use it in about any situation and that was ou lou choi.
Brendan Lai had a very nice 8 moves combo. I stole it by watching him taught his senior student. His student spent an entire hour working on this combo.

1. Right hand touch opponent's right wrist.
2. Left hand touch opponent's right elbow.
3. Right palm chop at opponent's right side neck.
4. Left hand take over opponent's blocking left hand.
5. Right palm chop at opponent's left side neck.
6. Right hand hook back opponent's blocking right arm wrist.
7. Left hand hook take over opponen's right arm wrist.
8. Right hand strike at opponent's face with the back of the hook.

It was done in 3 hopping steps.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I did not study under Master Lai. My 7* lineage is strictly Chung. I use Lai as an example because his ou lou choi was sooooooo fast mean and bad @ss. It was an offensive weapon, a defensive weapon, heck, I think he could use it to fix cars he was so good with it. But, I think as an example of representing a style - he had the right idea. It was with perfection of application under pressure. His forms were d@mn good, you can see for yourself on youtube. But his ou lou choi was unmatched in the mantis world.

any clips of this "ou lou choi" ?

[MightyB]

any clips of this "ou lou choi" ?

right around the 17-18 second mark http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOvO5L6VjSc&feature=related

just after he switches directions from moving left to moving right.

[sanjuro_ronin]

right around the 17-18 second mark http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOvO5L6VjSc&feature=related

just after he switches directions from moving left to moving right.

LOL !
Sure, I can always pick up the subtle nuainces of moves going at warp speed !

[MightyB]

LOL !
Sure, I can always pick up the subtle nuainces of moves going at warp speed !

I know, but I tried to find it as a single technique demonstration and all I could find were douche bag wannabes on e-how, and they weren't doing that move.

[HumbleWCGuy]

A style or system (if you want to play that dichotomy game), is a a delivery system for a core set of techniques. For example, TKD has preferred stances, usually side; preferred techniques, usually high kicks; and strategies that help to deliver those high kicks, usually involving more kicking including feint kicks.

Certainly some people will say that certain aspects of a training method must be present to have a particular style. In some cases they are probably correct and in others not. Some suggest that there is no Wing Chun without Chi sao. However, I would suggest that better WC evolves without it.

[Shaolin]

A car is only a car. it cannot drive itself. it is the PERSON that makes any style.

Makes perfect sense to me. I think it answers the question beautifully.

[Lucas]

some cars go 250+ mph while others strive to hit 100 :p ;) :eek:

but then, not everyone can drive formula 1 either...


oh no he didnt!

[hskwarrior]

In martial arts you got FORD PINTO'S and then you got Lamborghini's.


Makes perfect sense to me. I think it answers the question beautifully.

Riiiiight Riiiiiight.....I'm Glad we see eyez to eyez.....Riiiiight! we right there! <---> eyez to eyez

[hskwarrior]

http://www.deviantart.com/download/38953327/The_Tick_by_GraphicBrat.jpg

[KC Elbows]

A teacher better know more than a couple moves before claiming to teach a system.

That said, yes, usage is the important part.

[YouKnowWho]

any clips of this "ou lou choi" ?

I think MightB may talk about the 鉤楼採手(Gou Lou Cai Shou):

- right hand hook on opponent's right wrist.
- left hand cover on top of opponent's right elbow (In PM Lou, the tiger mouth face backward but I prefer my tiger mouth to face forward instead).
- pull your opponent toward you.
- right hand punch at opponent's face.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think MightB may talk about the 鉤楼採手(Gou Lou Cai Shou):

- right hand hook on opponent's right wrist.
- left hand cover on top of opponent's right elbow (In PM Lou, the tiger mouth face backward but I prefer my tiger mouth to face forward instead).
- pull your opponent toward you.
- right hand punch at opponent's face.

AH, I see, well explained !

[MightyB]

I think MightB may talk about the 鉤楼採手(Gou Lou Cai Shou):

- right hand hook on opponent's right wrist.
- left hand cover on top of opponent's right elbow (In PM Lou, the tiger mouth face backward but I prefer my tiger mouth to face forward instead).
- pull your opponent toward you.
- right hand punch at opponent's face.

This is exactly what I was talking about.

Isn't tiger mouth forward more of an Eagle Claw thing?

[YouKnowWho]

Isn't tiger mouth forward more of an Eagle Claw thing?

I'm not sure about Eagle Claw, but in Taiji Lu, Taiji double pulling, and SC Lou Shou all have tiger mouth facing forward. It's easier to turn it into a shoulder lock, or used in many throws (similiar to Judo sleeve hold). For striking purpose only, whether the tiger mouth face forward or backward, since it's a very short temprary contact, it won't matter that much.

[mooyingmantis]

any clips of this "ou lou choi" ?

Here is a video of me explaining the movements, then my son and I do it slowly as part of a drill:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRT3oAW9w2w

Here I show the same combination on our wooden dummy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mtFxEPEl1s

I hope this makes it clear. :)

Regards,
Richard A. Tolson

[PalmStriker]

When someone says "You've got Style", does it mean you've got "game?"

[-N-]

Brendan Lai was a bad @ss. He embodied 7* with basically one move which he mastered to perfection and could use it in about any situation and that was ou lou choi. If you were a kickboxer - he'd nail you with it. If you were a grappler - he'd nail you with it - if you did wing chun - he'd nail you with it - heck, if you claimed you did mantis - he'd nail you with it. He could nail anyone with it (and then he'd follow through with something nastier). That to me said more than anything that he was a master of mantis.

# of forms, terminology, and whatever else mattered less than that one move.

The technique is not the system. Ou lou choi is not just the technique. So "embodied" is a good term.


- What's the principle (theory) used in diu?

If you can have all those 6 answers for every moves in your style, you will have a good system.

Brendan Lai had a very nice 8 moves combo. I stole it by watching him taught his senior student. His student spent an entire hour working on this combo.

1. Right hand touch opponent's right wrist.
2. Left hand touch opponent's right elbow.
3. Right palm chop at opponent's right side neck.
4. Left hand take over opponent's blocking left hand.
5. Right palm chop at opponent's left side neck.
6. Right hand hook back opponent's blocking right arm wrist.
7. Left hand hook take over opponen's right arm wrist.
8. Right hand strike at opponent's face with the back of the hook.

It was done in 3 hopping steps.

Just as there is a theory used in the diu movement, there is a theory used in ou lou choi technique. Ou lou choi is not just the literal technique that many people think of when they hear the term.

In the 8 move example, there is ou lou choi theory.

The first 3 moves are ou lou choi using grinding palm technique.

The last 3 moves are ou lou choi using all mantis claw to intercept, control, and strike.

Is the entire 8 move 3 technique combo also ou lou choi?

If there are still 3 hopping steps, maybe that is practice in the second hour :)

Ou lou choi is at many levels. Even a throw can have ou lou choi. What about a combination throw? Could there be Shuai Chiao with a Mantis feel?

-N-

[YouKnowWho]

In the 8 move example, there is ou lou choi theory.

I like to call it "switching hands" theory.

- Your opponnet blocks your offense hand.
- Your defense hand re-block your opponent's block.
- Your offense hand will be free again to attack.


Could there be Shuai Chiao with a Mantis feel?

IMO, The Mantis system is the most suitable system in CMA to be integrated with SC. If you can make your 鉤楼採手(Gou Lou Cai Shou) work in combat, you can apply almost any throw that you like. After you have obtained your opponent's elbow control (the 1st contact point), to obtain the 2nd contact point will be much easier, you can be obtained it when you enter.

[-N-]

IMO, The Mantis system is the most suitable system in CMA to be integrated with SC. If you can make your 鉤楼採手(Gou Lou Cai Shou) work, you can apply almost any throw that you like. After you have obtained your opponent's elbow control (the 1st contact point), to obtain the 2nd control point will be much easier, you can be obtained it when you enter.

Thank you.

So my question was more rhetorical, really.

I see your example of 1st contact point, 2nd control point, and take your opponent.

We like to see contact, control, take (intercept, control, strike) even not just hands, wrist, elbow. And even not just physical.

-N-

[-N-]

I like to call it "switching hands" theory.

- Your opponnet blocks your offense hand.
- Your defense hand re-block your opponent's block.
- Your offense hand will be free again to attack again.

Yes, this is a very big thing for us.

And the timing and intent of the motions is what will make it ou lou choi theory.

Sifu Lai sometimes would say, "The first attack is not the real attack." In one sense, the first attack can be ou theory. It is just to set up the real attack.

-N-

[YouKnowWho]

"The first attack is not the real attack."

Agree! The 1st attack is to "build arm bridge". The 2nd and 3rd attack is to pass over the bridge and then enter. The mantis system uses this principle in great detail. The SC system expands this principle on the "build leg brdge" such as inside and outside shin bite.


We like to see contact, control, take (intercept, control, strike) even not just hands, wrist, elbow. And even not just physical.
You only need 1 contact point for strike. You will need 2 or 3 contact points for throw. It's a bit harder to be able to obtain all those contact points in combat speed. Everytime that you have chance for your throw, you always have your chance for your strike. The other way around is not always true.

This is an example of 3 contact points throw (left hand, right hand, right leg) front cut (Osoto Gari). If you can do this, your right hand will have no problem to punch on your opponent's face.

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/osotogari.htm

[MightyB]

The technique is not the system. Ou lou choi is not just the technique. So "embodied" is a good term.


Really, the whole point of this thread is to get people out of the "TMA is Crap mindset" and to offer what I think is a solution. We all know people that can bust out every form and know every theory - but, in a sparring situation they do nothing that resembles any mantis technique that they've been repeating throughout all of their training. I'm not OK with that because that's what's killing TMA. I think that with mastering in a live situation the techniques of "Ou Lau Choi, Tu Sau, and Diu Sau" you can pull off any move or technique that's in the system. I don't think it's too much to ask that "Masters" find ways to drill those techniques so that they're live and spontaneous and can be done by students in a pressured situation. I also think that every TCMA has a very limited set of core techniques that they should master. I just ask people to define what those are and concentrate on them.

I hate to always fall back on my Judo training, but do you know that by mastering 3 beginner throws it leads you in to be able to do about 100 different throws?

In my opinion, Master Ou Lau Choi, Tu Sau, and Diu Sau - you can do all of mantis.

[-N-]

I don't think it's too much to ask that "Masters" find ways to drill those techniques so that they're live and spontaneous and can be done by students in a pressured situation. I also think that every TCMA has a very limited set of core techniques that they should master. I just ask people to define what those are and concentrate on them.

Agreed.

How was that done when you were were training Mantis?

[MightyB]

Agreed.

How was that done when you were were training Mantis?

Probably the same as everybody else. Drilling then Sparring. But, just like my Dangers of Alive thread, I tended to build on the easy things to do and neglected those core mantis techniques. I had better success training mantis techniques through controlled playing hands drills. Those were similar to BJJ "Chess" training, or Judo "give and take" drills... where in mantis, two of us would work together and do a technique, then counter, all based on feel, on a controlled pace. If we felt "muddy" (sloppy, no technique) we'd start over.

[KC Elbows]

In my opinion, Master Ou Lau Choi, Tu Sau, and Diu Sau - you can do all of mantis.

In the style I do, there are the eight hands, they tend to be the entry points or transition points for everything else.

I have been, for the last month, training a class on one of those hand techniques. Each class, for two hours, they're working that technique into three different throws and one strike, as they've gotten used to the basics of one throw they partner with someone wearing heavy gloves, then they apply against strikes, which technique depending on which hand, lead or cross, their opponent decides to use, and which relative footing(both people with right foot forward, or an opponent whose stance is mirrored, for example, orthodox vs. southpaw) is used.

Next month, different hand technique from the eight will be worked with what they already know. Three of the eight are most common to apply, so those three will be taught first.

As I said in another thread, the students pay for their lessons by taking turns wearing the gloves for me to drill defense and entries for three minute rounds, the stronger guys first, trying to wear me out for the newer people. This gives the students the chance to work their basic strikes and footwork, as well as seeing that someone more experienced is still a viable target: I don't want any student to get in the habit of thinking of anyone as beyond hitting, and, in the context of a drill, sometimes I will get hit, especially right now, with the heat and humidity being what it is, after a long workout. I think one of the worst things to ever happen to some kung fu schools is the teachers not crossing hands because being seen as less than perfect is not an option. Crossing hands improves us by revealing what we have failed to account for, remove the experience and you don't remove the failure, you only hide it.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

In the style I do, there are the eight hands, they tend to be the entry points or transition points for everything else.

I have been, for the last month, training a class on one of those hand techniques. Each class, for two hours, they're working that technique into three different throws and one strike, as they've gotten used to the basics of one throw they partner with someone wearing heavy gloves, then they apply against strikes, which technique depending on which hand, lead or cross, their opponent decides to use, and which relative footing(both people with right foot forward, or an opponent whose stance is mirrored, for example, orthodox vs. southpaw) is used.

Next month, different hand technique from the eight will be worked with what they already know. Three of the eight are most common to apply, so those three will be taught first.

As I said in another thread, the students pay for their lessons by taking turns wearing the gloves for me to drill defense and entries for three minute rounds, the stronger guys first, trying to wear me out for the newer people. This gives the students the chance to work their basic strikes and footwork, as well as seeing that someone more experienced is still a viable target: I don't want any student to get in the habit of thinking of anyone as beyond hitting, and, in the context of a drill, sometimes I will get hit, especially right now, with the heat and humidity being what it is, after a long workout. I think one of the worst things to ever happen to some kung fu schools is the teachers not crossing hands because being seen as less than perfect is not an option. Crossing hands improves us by revealing what we have failed to account for, remove the experience and you don't remove the failure, you only hide it.

This. I will go a step further and say that many of these instructors put themselves up on a pedestal and don't cross hands because of fear of losing respect and/or students and simply an inflated ego. Every instructor I ever had crossed hands and sparred, as did I when I taught. Everyone gets hit, and this is a lesson all students should learn.

[YouKnowWho]

being seen as less than perfect is not an option.
fear of losing respect...

It's a lose-lose-lose-lose situation no matter which way you go.

A: Dear master! I don't think that I'll come back to your class any more.
B: Why? You have been with me for the past 10 years

Case 1: teacher is too good:

A: In the past 10 years, you have always beaten me 15-0. None of those moves that you taught me can work on you. You have totally destroyed my self-confidence for all these years. I find it just doesn't benefit me in any way.
B: :(

Case 2: teacher is good but not good enough:

A: You taught me 200 moves in the past 10 years but I have seen you only use 20 moves when I wrestled with you. If you can't use the other 180 moves on me, I don't think you are qualified to be my teacher.
B: :(

Case 3: teacher is just a bit better than student:

A: You taught me effortless throws but I have seen you use a lot of force when you throw me. If you can't throw me "effortless", I don't think you are qualified to be my teacher.
B: :(

Case 4: teacher is bad:

A: Today we wrestled 15 rounds and I can beat you 15-0. What make you think that you are qualified to be my teacher any more?
B: :(

[KC Elbows]

It's a lose-lose-lose-lose situation no matter which way you go.

I can see where you're coming from to some extent.



Case 1: teacher is too good:

A: In the past 10 years, you have always beaten me 15-0. None of those moves that you taught me can work on you. You have totally destroyed my self-confidence for all these years. I find it just doesn't benefit me in any way.
B: :(

The way I'm trying to avoid this pitfall(just pounding on students) is that, if they glove up with me, it's so that I am drilling techniques. Thus, they have a number of offensive moves they are allowed(and are working), while I only have certain responses I'm trying to work. Thus, they get to see how I'm training, they're largely training the same way, they are constantly refining their basic strikes, but are not put into the fire and demoralized. I also constantly tell anyone "Don't be demoralized from being hit or making an error, or you're making a second error. You make a mistake, that may work against you, or it may make your opponent do something they wouldn't normally think to do in a fight, and open an opportunity for you. You don't get to define the entire fight, if it's a fight worth having, and neither do your mistakes necessarily define the whole fight. You have to train being unphased even when things seem bad. It's just something you work and improve at."

Additionally, most of my students come from a mma background, and are young and in great shape, so my old @ss has to work pretty hard. Short exchanges I might dominate, but rounds are different, successive rounds more so, and, by limiting my options, they get room to grow, and I get to hone different aspects of my system.

Thus, if they get to box, and I can solely set up throws, and we both know this, I'm gonna come out looking good sometimes, but I'm gonna get hit.



Case 2: teacher is good but not good enough:

A: You taught me 200 moves in the past 10 years but I have seen you only use 20 moves when I wrestled with you. If you can't use the other 180 moves on me, I don't think you are qualified to be my teacher.
B: :(


Definitely see where you're coming from on this one. Being able to use four moves does not a teacher make. This is where I have found it useful to be aware of what other people in my style and similar styles use well. There are moves from my style I'd mostly use against the rare guy taller than me, but that shorter fighters in my system use as bread and butter. There's moves that I use that the shorter guys don't. I keep aware of these.

Further, because of reforms in my system, until now, few knew the whole system in the sense of having the form for study, and fewer still actually studied it, so the awareness of who uses what move was limited to a very small number. This is what I tell my students, "I don't really care about teaching, though I enjoy working with you guys. My main training partner moved, and so I need more heads working the problem, and the only way to get that is to lay the whole system at your feet and work together on it. I want questioning and testing, not compliance. I want more heads working the system, and I want diverse training partners with varied backgrounds, whether they study this system or not."

This is not a class for pay. These students don't need new adventures every week. I don't need to tell them that the fun adventures of constant meaningless changes and fun times are not comparable to contact in any way, shape, or form, nor nearly as adventurous or fun. So, it seems to work well so far.


Case 3: teacher is just a bit better than student:

A: You taught me effortless throws but I have seen you use a lot of force when you throw me. If you can't throw me "effortless", I don't think you are qualified to be my teacher.
B: :(


I applaud any student who is discerning in teachers. All I try to provide is the most realistic kung fu class I can for the people who want to work the system, and not the culture. We'll constantly work the same moves, and constantly improve at them, but some may not be my bread and butter, and thus may have room for improvement. Plus, I'd be the last to claim that, in sparring between equals, things are gonna go easy. My students each have other teachers and varied talents, so all things are not always equal.

For those who want to criticize my lack of culture, I point out that the basis of the culture is in cultivation, not posturing, and, if they wish to go further, we can discuss the classics in the original language and grammar. If the conversation gets that far, I hope to learn a bit more classical Chinese syntax. If not, good, I don't need more discussions of classical Chinese philosophy from people who learned it from their kung fu teacher. I learned from scholars, and I'm just passable, I'll not waste my time studying the pop culture version of it.




A: Today we wrestled 15 rounds and I can beat you 15-0. What make you think that you are qualified to be my teacher any more?
B: :(

Since I never seek to retain students, no one can accuse me of it. Anyone is free to leave. When people don't show up for unknown reasons, I don't sweat it. As long as they improve over the time they have, I'm okay with it. They're not alive to be my students, they choose to at times, that's all. I wouldn't expect a better to study with me, unless he felt that I knew some things he could make use of, in which case, I would not question his judgment, either. I make zero claims. I tell my students, "I am a practitioner, if a respected one in some circles. I am in the position of teaching because I need more training partners who do this system. There are no magic moves. It's an internal style, so it tends to require a lot of focus on body mechanics, an obsessive focus on body mechanics, so it's a lot of work. I'll keep the work realistic, but it's still work. Some people like the work, some like knitting, I don't see one as better than the other, I just like this work, and I don't care for sweaters. They make me itchy."

You know, the normal traditional sifu thing.

[Dragonzbane76]

i am in the position of teaching because I need more training partners who do this system. There are no magic moves.

I like this!:)



I'll keep the work realistic, but it's still work. Some people like the work, some like knitting, I don't see one as better than the other, I just like this work, and I don't care for sweaters. They make me itchy."

wish a lot more people felt this way.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

One of the major problems, especially in TCMA, is this attitude that the instructor is some demi-god who stands at the front of the class who should be so good no student can ever touch him. Maybe it was too much Kung Fu theatre or something, but this doesn't seem to be as much of a problem as say boxing. I have seen trainers in their 60's who looked and acted like Mickey from Rocky train bad a**ss fighters. Do you really think they could beat the guys they are training?

But no one questions that, yet Kung Fu for whatever reason is different. It shouldn't be, but it is. One of my instructors told me once when I was coming up through that I would never be as good as him. At the time I agreed, but now I realize what a trite and arrogant statement that really was. As an instructor, I would be proud the day my student surpassed me, and I mean that wholeheartedly.

[Lucas]

As an instructor, I would be proud the day my student surpassed me, and I mean that wholeheartedly.

I would hope thats the goal for most instructors. Nothing worse than a teacher trying to hold you back due to self esteem and ego issues. this is where the bull**** of modern 'secret' techniques and being hand fed comes into the game its ****ing retarded.

[KC Elbows]

As an instructor, I would be proud the day my student surpassed me, and I mean that wholeheartedly.

My thoughts exactly.

[bawang]

Really, the whole point of this thread is to get people out of the "TMA is Crap mindset" and to offer what I think is a solution. We all know people that can bust out every form and know every theory - but, in a sparring situation they do nothing that resembles any mantis technique that they've been repeating throughout all of their training.

the reason is simple. white people love forms. forms link unrelated movements together and take the focus off individual moves and makes them useless.

[KC Elbows]

I would hope thats the goal for most instructors. Nothing worse than a teacher trying to hold you back due to self esteem and ego issues. this is where the bull**** of modern 'secret' techniques and being hand fed comes into the game its ****ing retarded.

At the same time, such people aren't even able to take part in this conversation. They lose out. I don't even bother with chastising them, they'll see that moving on is better from examples who shine brighter than they ever did.

And I'm fairly certain that I have more direct experience with them than 99% of the people posting about martial arts on the internet.

What's important now is those of us that see things the way they should be, and forging that way, not the irrelevant dinosaurs of the past. Their tourneys are dying, their flocks are departing. They are over. I still don't think their styles should suffer their fates, so I leave room in case they wise up.

[bawang]

with them than 99% of the people posting about martial arts on the internet.

What's important now is those of us that see things the way they should be, and forging that way, not the irrelevant dinosaurs of the past. Their tourneys are dying, their flocks are departing. They are over. I still don't think their styles should suffer their fates, so I leave room in case they wise up.theyre not dinosaurs. they were usurpers and traitors. their long tradition is about 40 years old

[KC Elbows]

the reason is simple. white people love forms. forms link unrelated movements together and take the focus off individual moves and makes them useless.

I've trained in China. It's no different.

In fact, the one advantage is I had no intention of training in China. I went there to practice my mandarin, practiced kung fu in the mornings like I normally do, and was constantly approached to become people's student. For three months I turned everyone down. The next three months I was there, a friend asked me to take chen style taijiquan with him, so I did, the teaching was decent, but I was not there to train, and there were some issues, so I was going to call it off, when another friend said "Don't go back to them, come with me" and took me to a class that quite honestly was some of the best martial arts I'd ever trained.

Free.

The last time I paid for martial arts was a decade ago. I'm whiter than Ed Begley, Jr.

The problem is it's easier to remember a form than to remember a form and how to use it, period. It's the same from continent to continent.

In China, more schools can fight because they have sanshou programs, but this doesn't seem to mean that they are using the style they supposedly teach in sanshou. They do sanshou, and then they do some style that they rarely fight with.

You have to know the right people to get the right stuff, most of the time.

[bawang]

where u learned kung fu in china mang>?

[MasterKiller]

As an instructor, I would be proud the day my student surpassed me, and I mean that wholeheartedly.

Hence, my signature.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

theyre not dinosaurs. they were usurpers and traitors. their long tradition is about 40 years old

Sadly this is true. We have all had this discussion before, but think about when martial arts really got popular in the US, around the mid 60's. Even then, point sparring was much harder and at least had contact compared to the crap that goes on at tournaments today. Nothing is absolute and there have always been and will always be exceptions, but it is highly debateable that what these so called tradionalists do is actually traditional.

[Lucas]

the last tourney i went to years ago one of our guys was disqualified for kicking the other guy in the stomach with a back kick over and over....the guy couldnt figure it out i guess....so we got disqualified even though he sucked at fighting and couldnt even defend the same technique over and over....iots a freaking turn back kick for christs sake!

i was done with that **** right there.

[KC Elbows]

where u learned kung fu in china mang>?

河南省, 驻马店.

I learned the better kung fu from a group of huizu friends.

[Dragonzbane76]

I think people in general are becoming pu$$y's. I mean take any sport today at an early age of youth. They have cut a lot of the competitive nature out. They don't call it lossing anymore. Everyone wins! ??? They all go to the ice cream shop afterwards... blahh... What happens when there is no more winners. the answer, the world becomes less competitive, and then people stop caring about it all together and then they finally quit.

they try to make everyone safe to the point of ridiculousness. There is no more contact. Wrestling they have taken the weight divisions and not allowing the cut of weight. Football if you have the slightest injury I mean slightest they pull you for the whole game.

It's gradually happened over time and to all sports in schools.

makes the sexual harassment panda sad.....:(

[Iron_Eagle_76]

the last tourney i went to years ago one of our guys was disqualified for kicking the other guy in the stomach with a back kick over and over....the guy couldnt figure it out i guess....so we got disqualified even though he sucked at fighting and couldnt even defend the same technique over and over....iots a freaking turn back kick for christs sake!

i was done with that **** right there.

The problem is these tournaments were not set up to test one's fighting skills, it was set up to attract as many people as it could, no matter how much they sucked. I remember some years back I was competing in the brown belt division and hook kicked a guy hard enough that it left a goose egg under his eye. Not only was I disqualified, but my instructor and our school were theatened with being banned permanantely from the tournament. My instructor told the guy "They are brown belts, almost black, they should be fighting hard." I did not intentionally try to hurt the guy, but shi**t happens, it's martial arts for christ's sake.

[bawang]

河南省, 驻马店.

I learned the better kung fu from a group of huizu friends.
noice. muslim kung fu is badass

I think people in general are becoming pu$$y's. (
i think any kind of fighting training is not meant for those kind of suburb middle class people. this is the fault of greed. we ned to teech for culture not monies.

thats why im glad kung fu is getting less popular. maybe we can finally get sum quality control

my frend told me his old school in saaint louis kicks out students who dont come to class. tahts hardcore. kung fu shouldnt be worrying about getting more people. we shod be thinking about kicking out people

[David Jamieson]

noice. muslim kung fu is badass

i think any kind of fighting training is not meant for those kind of suburb middle class people. this is the fault of greed. we ned to teech for culture not monies.

thats why im glad kung fu is getting less popular. maybe we can finally get sum quality control

my frend told me his old school in saaint louis kicks out students who dont come to class. tahts hardcore. kung fu shouldnt be worrying about getting more people. we shod be thinking about kicking out people

people kick themselves out even if they stay as well. It's like they're not really there anyway.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Don't expect any teacher to be able to beat me, I expect to be able to learn form them, nothing more.
You don't see powerlifting coaches out lifting their trainees do you?
Or boxing coaches out boxing their fighters?
Or sprint coaches out sprinting their sprinters?

Only in MA do we expect a teacher to out perform, physically, their younger, faster, stronger students.
Why?

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Don't expect any teacher to be able to beat me, I expect to be able to learn form them, nothing more.
You don't see powerlifting coaches out lifting their trainees do you?
Or boxing coaches out boxing their fighters?
Or sprint coaches out sprinting their sprinters?

Only in MA do we expect a teacher to out perform, physically, their younger, faster, stronger students.
Why?

Pretty much what I said. I blame Kung Fu theatre.:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Pretty much what I said. I blame Kung Fu theatre.:D

Indeed, I also tend to blame students that are just to nice to "sifu" and make him think that he may be far better than he is.

[Dragonzbane76]

indeed, i also tend to blame students that are just to nice to "sifu" and make him think that he may be far better than he is.

indeed>.......

[SavvySavage]

Indeed, I also tend to blame students that are just to nice to "sifu" and make him think that he may be far better than he is.

So you are suggesting what exactly? That if my Sifu is demonstrating technique I give him a hard time? Or if he shows something that looks fishy I call bs on it? I understand that students kind of just fall over when being demonstrated on.

Giving a teacher a hard time kind of goes against the culture of a Kung fu school where the teacher is the pharaoh at the top of the pyramid and all information flows downward.

I'm telling my Sifu that Sanjoro Ronin said to kick his ass! Lol

[taai gihk yahn]

I did not intentionally try to hurt the guy, but shi**t happens, it's martial arts for christ's sake.
now that's just crazy talk...

[David Jamieson]

Style is made by it's practitioners.
A system is composed of principles.

Stylists each express principle in accordance to their understanding and ability to execute through following a principle.

Stylists chaneg a sytem as much as the system changes them while learning it.

But expression at the end point of training is "style" and that is entirely the individual.