Wuh Lum - New Student Question

[adam]

Hi everybody,

I just joined the temple saturday and I was wondering if there is any other brothers here on the board in Orlando?

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[bitesfirst]

I study Wha Lum, but I'm in MA. Good luck at the temple.

[MiamiMantis]

Welcome to Wah Lum. I'm not in Orlando but I'm in Miami. I have been training under Sifu Shelly Huang 12 years now. If you have any questions I can probally answer them.
E-mail at miawahlum@aol.com

[adam]

Thanks, check your email. I already have questions. :-)

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[Hua Lin Laoshi]

No offense to MiamiMantis but if you're a student at the Temple why ask others out side the Temple? You are at the source. The reason I bring this up is because of the possibility of getting bad information from ex-students/Sifus portraying themselves as Wah Lum experts. Again, MiamiMantis, I have no reason to doubt your credentials but then there has been no verification either. I'm just concerned that with some of the recent postings a new student can get confused or overwhelmed with conflicting information. Chatting is fine but please keep the serious questions within the group of instructors who are actually training you. Thanks and enjoy the forum.

[woliveri]

I strongly disagree Hua Lin Laoshi. As far as
Adam's questions go he could get incorrect answers
to his questions at the Temple for that matter.
Remember that this is a forum so we can view each
other's posts and hopefully learn from them. I
never new much at all but rumors regarding 8-Step
PM before here but now know much, much more. When
you oppress others from posting you keep us all
from learning a little something and to say that
only good information is at the Temple says little
about the certification of Wah Lum instructors.
Since MiamiMantis studies with Shelly, how are you
to know that his information isn't up to par. How do you know that ex-students don't have good
infomation? I take issue with this position and
it rings of the atmosphere of the Temple which is
you always need to calculate what you say when you are in the presence of others and never tell
anyone if you take a seminar or study with anyone outside of Wah Lum for fear of being kicked out.
I've had students who I considered friends basicly
avoid talking to me at the Temple because of what
might be overheard. Give it up!! Take this
excess baggage off the students backs.

Bill

[Robinf]

Whereas this is a great forum to get new ideas or to see old ideas in new light, still the first place to go with any questions you have is your instructor. If you go to a teacher to learn, then you want to learn from that teacher everything there is about that system--you generally don't want to go to an outsider to have your questions answered, for the answers may be of a different flavor. This is so you get the answer your teacher will give, and your teacher knows where you are, or what page you're on.

Not asking questions of your teacher is robbing your teacher of the chance to teach. It is also considered disrespectful to get your answers from someone outside your school. If the answer you get is not satisfactory, then discuss it with your teacher--that way, your teacher knows what's getting through to you and what isn't, thus further helping the teacher teach you.

Your teacher has all your answers and really wants to give them to you.

Surrender yourself to nature and be all that you are.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

woliveri,

In case you're not familiar with traditional martial arts ettiquite it is improper for a Sifu to teach another Sifu's students without first getting permission. It is also an insult to your Sifu if you seek instruction elsewhere without first asking permission from your Sifu. I'm sure you don't agree with this but you apparently have no allegience to anyone. In you case you are free to learn from anyone you like. Master Chan is traditional, you go behind his back for training you leave and never come back. All the Wah Lum Sifu's I've met feel the same about their students and they get very angry if another Sifu teaches them anything.

Since Adam is a new student he should concentrate on what is being taught to him by his direct instructor. If he wants to learn from miawahlum he can go to Miami and pay tuition there. If he wants to know more about other styles he's free to ask anyone here about the style they study. However, Wah Lum questions should be directed to his teacher.

The Temple is the standard for Wah Lum. The forms are whatever Master Chan says they are and the branch schools need to conform to the Temple, not the other way around. Whatever you learned while at the Temple is probably different than what is taught now. So are you right and Master Chan wrong? Not a chance.

Just understand that my post was not intended to keep him from asking about other styles. I just wanted him to stick with what is being taught to him from the people who he signed up to teach him.

BTW, I talk to whoever I want inside or outside the system. What you say is just nonsense. However if I go train over at Lo Lei's school Master Chan would no longer accept me as his student.

[This message was edited by Hua Lin Laoshi on 09-19-00 at .]

[woliveri]

While I agree with you regarding seeking
instruction from another sifu in the same system
I do not agree with you if I am a student in a
system and I want to go to JoeSmo who knows a
form from another system that I would like to
have and learning it from him. This is what I'm
talking about. It creates a sneaky environment.
What's the problem with learning from Joe Smo?
Why can this type of instruction take place? Why do students have to sneak around to do it? You
pay quite a bit to learn Kung Fu don't you? If you want to pay to learn an extra form or Qi Gong
exercise from someone else that might enhance
your training then why not? Why oppress a
student from learning? I do have an allegience,
to the instructors who don't oppress my thirst
for knowledge, who have gone out of their way to
be kind to me, who give without asking in
return. As far as I'm concerned, this type of
Traditional thinking places martial arts in the
dark ages.

[Robinf]

Woliveri,

Because, if you learn a form outside your system, that will inevitibly make its way into your system during your training, causing you to mess up, and causing your teacher heartache in trying to get you do your style properly--pushing your training backward in your style and wasting your sifu's time.

You can't learn a second system or form from another system to "enhance" (as you said), your training in one system.

Doing this also tells your sifu that you don't think what you're learning is enough. That is also an insult to your instructor. That you don't think their teaching you what you need. It is also hubris (or egotistical), to think that you know what will enhance your learning in your style, unless you are a master of your style. Until you're a master of the style, you don't really KNOW the style, and attempting to suppliment the style with something different will only take you further away from mastering your style.

Now, if you don't care about mastering any particular style, but are just in kung fu to learn to move, then albeit and learn whatever forms from whoever. If you want to master a style, then just study the style until you are a master.

Robin

Surrender yourself to nature and be all that you are.

[woliveri]

Ok Robinf, but it's ok if we learn seminars from "approved" masters right? Double standard here. How about Lee Koon Hung, Mok Poi On, Shek Kin, Li En Jiao, Zheng Bing Dao.. etc... Why introduce seminars from other masters such as this if it's going to water down the style? Apparently, Master Chan doesn't think so. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Bottom line, If I'm paying for instruction then my sifu should have no control over what I learn outside the school. If my sifu wants to teach me free of charge then I will be happy to submit to the "Traditional" way.

[Robinf]

Woliveri,

I see your point. I don't know what goes on at the Temple as I'm far removed from it. I also don't know any of the names you listed, so I have no idea what they teach. If you are referring to Master Chan having in guest teachers for seminar, then that is his right. He, after all, is the man who runs the temple and is in charge of what is taught, and he is a Master (probably Grand Master by now). If he decides to have outside teachers come in, then that is what he wants taught. It is his right and privelage to make those decisions.

As for students going themselves to seminars to "suppliment" their training, that is a different story. They are not masters of the system they are studying and do not fully understand the system and don't have a complete picture of the system. Therefore, the "supplimenting" only serves to confuse the student.

I am an instructor in TKD and a big sister in Kung Fu. I can't even count how much time I have spent reteaching things because someone went on their own to a seminar and decided to incorporate that into their training. Taekwondo and our Kung fu have different strategies then any other martial art, therefore the techniques are shown differently and are used in a slightly different manner with different timing, and the techniques, timing and strategy are pertinent to the system.

If you want to learn techniques for techniques sake, that's certainly your perogative, and your right. After all, you are paying with money. But, even if it didn't cost money, you're still paying with your time and energy. So, I don't quite understand your statement that if you were being taught for free, you'd learn the "traditional way".

Surrender yourself to nature and be all that you are.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I see wolivari's point and in my opinion it boils down to this: traditionally a student would ask a teacher to take him as his student and if the teacher agreed then the student would put his training in the teachers hands. The teacher would then plan out his training and control all aspects of it since, being a Sifu, he has the knowledge and experience to know what the student needs to learn. The student trusts the teacher and does what he is told whether he understands why or not. That's how Master Chan and other traditional Sifus operate. Americans don't seem to be like that. We're basically renegades at heart.

Now, I'm not saying this is right or wrong. It just happens to be the situation I'm in at the moment. If Master Chan says Iron Palm is no good for me then I don't learn Iron Palm. If I feel I know better than master Chan what I need then I'm free to go off on my own but I can't stay with him. I put him in charge of my training when I signed up so he's the boss. There are and have been students at the Temple that also train at other schools and Master Chan knows about this up front. He doesn't have a problem with this. You don't have to denounce your old style to train at the Temple. Some Wah Lum schools even teach other styles like Sifu Bruce Cohen in New Port Richey, FL. Personally I think it's only a problem at the lower levels. The more advanced students can handle difference in styles and training and can seperate or combine them at will.

Now this way of training may not work for you. You apparently want to take your training in your own hands and decide what you need. That's fine if you're not interested learning and propagating a known style. For me, I've bounced around a few schools here and there and learned some good stuff that helped me when I needed it but I got tired of starting at the bottom everywhere I went. Eventually I decided to stick it out in one style until I reached a significant level and maybe open my own school. Fortunately for me Master Chan allows other training because I do like learning other things however I let him decide what will be available to me because he's the expert. AND he has top notch friends! Try to get Yu Cheng Hui to teach you something. He doesn't take students. The closest you can get is to buy the video.

Hey, you have to go with what works for you. It's all personal choice.

[woliveri]

I agree with Hua Lin Laoshi regarding being at a certain level when learning outside material. I have never had a problem with it. Also, Robin, I think I may have not been clear enough with my statement regarding "enhancing" my training. I would in no way change the forms I had learned from Wah Lum. Everything I have learned is still the same as when I learned it. First form is still first form. I love these forms and would never change them.

All I can speak of regarding this subject is from my experience. Since I left the temple I learned Vietnamese martial art, Tai Mantis, and Qi Gong. This experience has Greatly expaned my knowledge and understanding of training, how to train, strategies of fighting, how to create my own Dit Dat Jow and Iron Palm Jow, and how to balance internal training with external training through the theories of Chinese Medicine. I know I would have never gotten this at the Temple. Now if I can broaden my experience and knowledge then why cannot all? It only helps the student gain more knowledge. Why loose students over an issue like attending a Qi Gong, Kung Fu, or Chinese medical seminar? Why not expand the knowledge base at the Temple not stifle it?

Also, how can you master a style when that style will never be completely taught to the general public? Can anyone tell me the essence of Wah Lum? In other words, what you are mentally and physically trying to accomplish in your training?
How do you know when you've mastered it? Does anyone think of this or just go in and practice forms? It is said that the main characteristic of Chinese Martial arts is that the Qi is the main focus of training or is the main awareness of that training? Does anyone ever speak of this?

BTW, Hua Lin Laoshi, who is Yu Cheng Hui?

[KNH13]

Let me get this straight:
Adam just joined Wah Lum and thanks to the wonderful world of technology, wanted to see who else online takes Wah Lum.

My fellow kungfu brother from Miami replies and offers any answers to any questions he may have (a rather friendly gester, I'm sure some of his kung fu brothers from class have done the same)

But instead I'm reading about very negative attitudes from fellow Wah Lum students.

Can we talk POSITIVELY about the art we love, or should this be a polical forum instead? I hope you guys haven't scared away the new student.

I don't recall any question asked about crosstraining or learning from other teachers. But maybe I missed a questioned from Adam somewhere.

P.S. Any advanced student & sifu at the temple would know Sifu Shelly & her students. That's very easy to verify.

[woliveri]

/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
KNH13, I know of no forum rules that says the topic of conversation cannot drift into variations of said topic. Also, as far as I'm concerned, we are talking about traditional instruction and why a student cannot go outside of his school and learn another form from another style and I see that as educational, not negative. At this point the Wah Lum Temple is the point of this topic as most in this conversation have experience with that particular school but from what I understand (correct me if I'm wrong) most if not all traditional schools operate the same way. Since you study with Shelly, can you tell us if she would be angry if you take a seminar with the Choi Lee Fut school that Lee Koon Hung started in your area? Would you be kicked out of Shelly's school? What if you wanted to study with Shelly's husband while you continue to study Wah Lum with Shelly. Would you be allowed?

[Robinf]

I see what you've done. You've learned each art separately to enhance your overall person, not to enhance your art. I get it now. That I understand doing, as long as you don't mix the arts--then you're creating a new art. Heck, I study two arts seperately myself, that's why I know the trouble students can get in if they don't have enough experience in one art first. I've seen quite a few beginners in one art take on a second and either confuse the two or think they can improve one art with what they're learning in the other. That's what makes the mess.

Robin

Surrender yourself to nature and be all that you are.

[adam]

I posted a simple question asking about if there were any fellow brothers here and I come back to an argument over styles. Hmm..

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[Robinf]

It's not an arguement over styles, it's a discussion about studying more than one style at once.

Adam,
This sort of mutation happens often on this board, as it happens in life. That's what makes it interesting to keep coming back.

Surrender yourself to nature and be all that you are.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

KNH13,
I see no negative attitudes here, just some opposing views. I just didn't understand why someone would ask an unknown (no offense miawahlum) person on a message board questions about the style when he should be asking his Sifu instead. That's not a negative attitude, it's my opinion. And you can bet that if I'm reviewing his material and he does something a guy on a message board told himto do it's going to change real fast. He'll probably be doing an awful long Bai Fut Sow that night too!

Adam,
Don't be alarmed at the posts. It's typical of message boards where there are no visual ques to pick up like in face-to-face conversations. It's great the someone as experienced as miawahlum is willing to help but you need to focus on what you're being taught at the school. There are many instructors there and all are willing to help you during or after class. I always ask students if they have any questions on anything I show them and I make myself available after class as well.

woliveri,
Although we don't always agree at least we get a lively conversation going and I'm always interested in your opinion. And if you've ever watched Yellow River Fighter or Shaolin Temple you've seen Yu Cheng Hui in action with the double hand gim.

[woliveri]

So Robin, you agree then that learning outside of your present school is ok? I learned those things separately it's true but I see no reason that a student cannot take a Qi Gong Seminar or a Form or Weapons seminar from another school while still attending your main school. Let's say I'm studying at the Temple and, for example, Master Share K. Lew is giving a seminar in California on Tai Chi Ruler section 2 and I want to take that seminar. If I don't mind paying the air fare, hotel, and seminar costs what's the problem? I don't plan to teach it at the Temple. That I agree would be offensive for sure. My point is that to do that you would have to sneak around behind your sifu's back if he/she didn't allow it. I don't see the problem.

Thanks Hua Lin Laoshi. I remember a time when everyone was interested in the two handed gim. One guy especially. And I remember Master Chan giving a seminar on that weapon when Wah Lum doesn't have this weapon in it's curriculum. Again, double standard. Of course, as Temple owner, GrandMaster, and Sifu he has the right. I just don't see the value in it.

[KNH13]

woliveri :
Lighten up, LIGHTEN UP?!! Ok. I just read the other forums and just didn't like all that bashing by ex-students and just got a little worked up.

Of course you can drift into another topic. I don't think that's what Adam was asking about, but since you mentioned it, it is a good question.

Funny you should mention Choy Li Fut. When Lee Koon Hung's school opened up, we were asked to help support him. Some of us took a seminar form, and a couple of people actually were taking classes. Personally, I don't believe in taking more than one style (heck, I haven't learn everything that Wah Lum has to offer - I don't won't to confuse myself and end up with a new style!)

Also, since Master Huang is Shelly's husband, she has given us permission to study with him. He's given numerous fighting seminars. It's pretty cool seeing a Tai Chi master who likes to fight. Also, the Tai Chi she teaches is of course from him. (Unfortunately, I don't have the time)

Hey, I've watched enough Kung Fu movies to know that the Chinese culture is to not train with another sifu without permission. To do so is an insult. And some people forget that this is a CHINESE art, with CHINESE traditions, not AMERICAN, without any traditions handed down.

Now, if I only wanted to fight, and didn't care about pretty forms, then the only way I'm going to learn anything is to cross train (boxing, wrestling, karate, judo, etc.) And if you ask them why they do that, I bet you it's because they always find that their lacking something, especially since they've learn everything they can in that art (you'll never hear a Wah Lum sifu say that they've learned everything, that's impossible!) Now I truly believe our style has all those areas covered, including weapons and even grappling (Hua Lin Laoshi can probably back me up on this, I remember Troy used to do this really awesome 2 man wrestling form, so we've got grappling, i.e. jut sow - wrestling hands)


adam:
Since you're new, I didn't want you getting turned off by what you read, but like Hua Lin Laoshi said, you should be asking him or the other Sifu's at the Temple any questions you may have. They are all really nice, Mark, Mimi, Tu, MIke (is he a sifu?), even Master Chan. Just because he's a world renowned Grandmaster, you can still ask him questions. He's real down to earth. Just don't let him see you slacking off. He'll tell you off, trust me, I know!


So who here believes in crosstraining? What does Praying Mantis not have that can be found in another style? (this should be interesting)

[adam]

Ok guys one thing that I am definatly learning is what you guys keep saying over and over. Ask your sifu. I know that now. When I posted that was my first day. I didn't know anything. I am really loving this art and wish I could spend way more of my time at the temple. Will they train the Yin part at the temple?

also, do you guys know of a good information site that has more info then the temple's site.

I am actually voluntering to redo the temple's website in my spare time. I think it needs a make over.

/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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[Robinf]

Adam,

You are sitting right in the heart of all the information you need to beef up your knowlege and the Wah Lum website. Just sit down with Master Chan and take it all down. Actually, ask if you can interview him and video tape it for the site. That way, you can get all the info you want and have some really cool video of the man who brought Wah Lum to the U.S.--something I'd truly love to see.

Robin

[adam]

Thats a great idea. I have been really busy lately and trying to get my designer do this in his spare time, but it looks like I am going to have to do the graphics.

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