list of hands

[warkid]

Greetings all, long time reader, first time post. I am looking for list of hand techniques for Wing Chun Kuen. I realize there are different names for differents lineage, this is ok. I am interested in them all. If the respondants could cite where in the san sik the principle technique is found, and a "definition", this would be appreciated. I look forward to the responses. Please and thank you.

Dump me out to fill me up,

Richard Son Su Meyer

[vatesi]

http://www.wingchunonline.com/Wingchun/Training_hands.html

pretty comprehensive. wikipedia says theres 18 hands, and that site explains 16 of them

[HumbleWCGuy]

People will have differing takes on the exact execution of those techniques but that's the general idea.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Most of the WC is Ip Man WC so that list is probably reflective of that on some level.

[Dave McKinnon]

There is only one hand - The Punch!

[wtxs]

There is only one hand - The Punch!

The modified version reads: There is only one effective hand technique at any one moment, the praying hand aka wu sao would magically transforms into THE punch, just don't forget to pray before try landing that punch!:p:D

[Dave McKinnon]

Actually its more like every kick a step and every step a kick.

Every strike contains the three seeds (Tan/ Bong/ Fuk) and every bridge contains the punch.

http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/9250/kp02cg0.png

[t_niehoff]

My WCK has a left hand and a right hand.

[Mr Punch]

Pah. Amateur. I learned my wing chun from Chuck Norris. I also have the middle hand from right under my beard.

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://www.demoties.com/posters/chuck-norris/chuck-norris-fist.jpg

[Phil Redmond]

http://www.wingchunonline.com/Wingchun/Training_hands.html

pretty comprehensive. wikipedia says theres 18 hands, and that site explains 16 of them

Not bad except fook/fuhk means to control/subdue and faat means whisking/sweeping. I studied Cantonese so that I would know what the WC terms meant. It irks me when I see Tan Sao translated as palm up block. :(

[shawchemical]

Not bad except fook/fuhk means to control/subdue and faat means whisking/sweeping. I studied Cantonese so that I would know what the WC terms meant. It irks me when I see Tan Sao translated as palm up block. :(

I think the thing that those of us for whom english is a first language must realise is that the names are actually verbs, and not nouns.

Thus the names actually describe the movements themselves, not just the shape.

It is worth remembering also that the name may actually describe the effect on the opponent when it is applied.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Shaw & Phil, I am not pointing the finger at you two, but the conversation just made me think of something.

I wonder if people argue about terminology on a BJJ and Muay Thai forums? I am always a little bit uncomfortable when the debate turns to, "the precise meaning of blah blah is blah blah," because so many really bad wing chuners try to pretend to be more knowledge of Chinese to demonstrate their credibility. Usually, unless the instructor is Chinese, their terminology is usually suspect. I am of the opinion that people who dwell on such matters the most usually have the most suspect WC when the fighting starts.

[LoneTiger108]

Shaw & Phil, I am not pointing the finger at you two, but the conversation just made me think of something.

I wonder if people argue about terminology on a BJJ and Muay Thai forums? I am always a little bit uncomfortable when the debate turns to, "the precise meaning of blah blah is blah blah," because so many really bad wing chuners try to pretend to be more knowledge of Chinese to demonstrate their credibility. Usually, unless the instructor is Chinese, their terminology is usually suspect. I am of the opinion that people who dwell on such matters the most usually have the most suspect WC when the fighting starts.

'Suspect' learning is being taught to just fight. Big man always win! :D

[t_niehoff]

'Suspect' learning is being taught to just fight. Big man always win! :D

What's funny is that TMAists love to TALK about how their so-called superior art and "knowledge" (LOL!) will -- it's ALWAYS in some speculative future -- permit small, weaker persons to defeat the larger. Yet, we NEVER see any evidence of this actually happening. What we do have loads of evidence happening is smaller, weaker BJJ fighters beating much larger, stronger people, for example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POJ2T023M4I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7rPkY7O-HU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHwVQmZVZL4

"Suspect learning" is listening to people who can't do it tell you how to do it.

Want to know how a smaller, weaker person can beat a larger, stronger person? Listen to people who have done it, and can prove they can do it.

[Dave McKinnon]

T

It is true that smaller JJ dudes beat bigger dudes. Though, when both dudes have a closer degree of skills, then the bigger, stronger, and faster dudes usually win.

Dude!

Dave McKinnon

[t_niehoff]

T

It is true that smaller JJ dudes beat bigger dudes. Though, when both dudes have a closer degree of skills, then the bigger, stronger, and faster dudes usually win.

Dude!

Dave McKinnon

I agree 100%.

[Yoshiyahu]

T

It is true that smaller JJ dudes beat bigger dudes. Though, when both dudes have a closer degree of skills, then the bigger, stronger, and faster dudes usually win.

Dude!

Dave McKinnon

This is true. But in some cases if the dude is Bigger and Stronger an has less skill he will still undoubtly win. It depends on how much bigger and stronger the other guy is. Its like you have to take into account the level of his strength and power. If you have guy who is not very skilled at grappling, intercepting, kicking but can knock people out with two or three punches. An is bigger than everyone he fights the average guy who is drastically smaller than him will have a hard time hurting him and will need to be weary of his haymaker jawbreakers. Because punch lands it will be the other guy last.

The degree of strenght, power and size can be also attributed or equal to a level of skill. Its like sometimes a guy with overwhelming speed and agility will be able to defeat a more skilled guy as well. It just depends on how unevenly match you are.

Try having a eighty one year grand master fight heavy weight boxer. Tell me how that works out!

[Phil Redmond]

Shaw & Phil, I am not pointing the finger at you two, but the conversation just made me think of something.

I wonder if people argue about terminology on a BJJ and Muay Thai forums? I am always a little bit uncomfortable when the debate turns to, "the precise meaning of blah blah is blah blah," because so many really bad wing chuners try to pretend to be more knowledge of Chinese to demonstrate their credibility. Usually, unless the instructor is Chinese, their terminology is usually suspect. I am of the opinion that people who dwell on such matters the most usually have the most suspect WC when the fighting starts.

Not all English speaking people are educated. There are people of other nationalities that have a better grasp of English than native speakers. I studied Cantonese at CCNY under professor Gao. She would often point out how being a native speaker doesn't guarantee linguistic eloquence.
The reason I pointed out translation is because the terms used in Cantonese describe the movement/intent. Also, I'm not just some theorist. I was once a full contact fighter and I train amateur fighters who are winning. ;)

[LoneTiger108]

Want to know how a smaller, weaker person can beat a larger, stronger person? Listen to people who have done it, and can prove they can do it.

Been there and done that T. And I'm only a lightweight of 5ft7 myself and have yet to get into real difficulty, albeit I've never been one to go looking for a row! ;)

I still also believe that knowing some proper terms in our arts original tongue isn't going to help win a fight either. But is helps us preserve the art imho.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I was once a full contact fighter and I train amateur fighters who are winning. ;)

That's why I said that I wasn't pointing the finger at you and just speaking in generalities. Honestly, I thought that your videos and comments all demonstrated credible WC knowlege so I was basing my opinion on those facts. The way that certain people act, you would think that the best TCMA instructors are the professors of Chinese Language.

[overall]

T

It is true that smaller JJ dudes beat bigger dudes. Though, when both dudes have a closer degree of skills, then the bigger, stronger, and faster dudes usually win.

Dude!

Dave McKinnon

Does this mean that the smaller man is always inferior? To be bigger does not always equal to be stronger. So, it is skill that brings the advantage, as you said.
And skill is achived through quality training. So, all we have to do is find good expert who is willing to teach us and do our training as much as possible. By sitting and typing we only strenghtening our english language skill. Hope u understand me. :D

[HumbleWCGuy]

No body smaller is going to beat a quality big man. End of story. You can show me all the tapes of fat guys getting punched out by smaller guys who probably have the same muscle mass. You can show me all the pro BJJ fighters defeating amatuer strikers that you want, but what it comes down to is that big trumps small.

[overall]

Then your opinion is unchanging regardless of the evidence.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Then your opinion is unchanging regardless of the evidence.

When you put the term "quality" in front of big man, the evidence for small defeating big is not there.

Sure I can put a decent middle weight on a big sloppy doofus and expect the middleweight to win, but "big sloppy doofus" does not qualify as quality. In a situation like that the big man's only advantage might be weight while the middle weight is stronger, faster, conditioned, and trained/experienced.

[overall]

When you put the term "quality" in front of big man, the evidence for small defeating big is not there.

You are right of course, but with ma skill a smaller man can defend himself and even if it takes to apply run away technics. But don't forget that there are very strong people which in appearance would never have said that they have any chance.

[HumbleWCGuy]

You are right of course, but with ma skill a smaller man can defend himself and even if it takes to apply run away technics. But don't forget that there are very strong people which in appearance would never have said that they have any chance.

Okay now we are out of the realm of sport so this is a different matter all together. Absolutely agree, that's what I tell students. In a street encounter, survival is a win not beating people up necessarily. Hold someone off until you can run is all you have to be able to do. Any small person who is worth anything can do that.

I also think that smaller fighters who have a speed advantage are much better when it comes to bladed weapons.

[Yoshiyahu]

The word "Skill" seems to be the underlining word here. Well what makes someone skilled in Martial Arts?

1.Accuracy
2.Power
3.Strength
4.Speed
5.Agility
6.Flexibility
7.Stamina
8.Cunning

So lets say you have WC guy who is fighting a guy with some knowledge of fighting. But the WC guy has great accuracy, sensitivity and knowledge of the system. Where as the bigger guy simply has great power, strength, stamina, speed and cunning. The WC guy has a little power and some stamina but not like the bigger guy. In a altercation where the WC guy is trapped. Which one will come out on top. The guy with Knowledge of Martial arts but little conditioning or the one with strength, speed, power and cunning?

[Phil Redmond]

. . . you would think that the best TCMA instructors are the professors of Chinese Language.

Not necessarily, is some cases CMAs were scholars. In other cases they were from guys frm the "streets" who just wanted to know how to fight. I remember some of my Chinese friends in NY saying that their parents didn't want to do kung fu because it was associated with the bad element of Chinese society. I'll bet that some of the Chinese forum members know what I'm taking about.

[Dave McKinnon]

The word "Skill" seems to be the underlining word here. Well what makes someone skilled in Martial Arts?

1.Accuracy
2.Power
3.Strength
4.Speed
5.Agility
6.Flexibility
7.Stamina
8.Cunning

So lets say you have WC guy who is fighting a guy with some knowledge of fighting. But the WC guy has great accuracy, sensitivity and knowledge of the system. Where as the bigger guy simply has great power, strength, stamina, speed and cunning. The WC guy has a little power and some stamina but not like the bigger guy. In a altercation where the WC guy is trapped. Which one will come out on top. The guy with Knowledge of Martial arts but little conditioning or the one with strength, speed, power and cunning?

Toughness both mental and physical as well as superior stamina can trump most things. Accuracy, sensitivity and knowledge are bupkis when compared to strong athletic and determined opponents. WC skill can win if you can hit hard enough to KO or have enough conditioning of your own to go the distance.

Dave

[Wayfaring]

So lets say you have WC guy who is fighting a guy with some knowledge of fighting. But the WC guy has great accuracy, sensitivity and knowledge of the system. Where as the bigger guy simply has great power, strength, stamina, speed and cunning. The WC guy has a little power and some stamina but not like the bigger guy. In a altercation where the WC guy is trapped. Which one will come out on top. The guy with Knowledge of Martial arts but little conditioning or the one with strength, speed, power and cunning?

Dude, that's the main problem with WCK today. Too many hypothetical scenarios involving fights, not enough realistic training involving fights.

Let's say I have Superman fighting the Silver Surfer. Who wins? Hollywood, DC Comics, and the nerd in the corner office :D:D:D

[warkid]

Thanks for the links.

Mr. Redmond, could you suggest another resource for my search. I like to cross reference my findings. Please and thank you.

[Yoshiyahu]

Toughness both mental and physical as well as superior stamina can trump most things. Accuracy, sensitivity and knowledge are bupkis when compared to strong athletic and determined opponents. WC skill can win if you can hit hard enough to KO or have enough conditioning of your own to go the distance.

Dave

Your taking the words right out of my mouth...great i totally agree. Doing chi sau, forms and doing some drills aint enough...One must also have Conditioning and Knock out power to get her done!

[Syn7]

No body smaller is going to beat a quality big man. End of story. You can show me all the tapes of fat guys getting punched out by smaller guys who probably have the same muscle mass. You can show me all the pro BJJ fighters defeating amatuer strikers that you want, but what it comes down to is that big trumps small.

jacare won the mundial open division 2 times at around 83kg's... 2004 and 2005 open div. champ... and he beat big guys, 95 to 100kg's... roger gracie is a big guy... and thats bjj's highest level so you know the skill gaps were minimal and it usually comes down to who timed their peak in their training better... but smaller guys can and do win all the time, even at similar skill levels... and its not just a few lucky ones, there are consistancies there... but ofcourse physics will always leave the numbers favoring size... no doubt about that one...

[Yoshiyahu]

jacare won the mundial open division 2 times at around 83kg's... 2004 and 2005 open div. champ... and he beat big guys, 95 to 100kg's... roger gracie is a big guy... and thats bjj's highest level so you know the skill gaps were minimal and it usually comes down to who timed their peak in their training better... but smaller guys can and do win all the time, even at similar skill levels... and its not just a few lucky ones, there are consistancies there... but ofcourse physics will always leave the numbers favoring size... no doubt about that one...

Can you post some videos of some smaller guys defeating bigger guys. When I say smaller i mean significantly smaller more than ten pound difference?

[t_niehoff]

Can you post some videos of some smaller guys defeating bigger guys. When I say smaller i mean significantly smaller more than ten pound difference?

Some oldies but goodies . . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POJ2T023M4I&feature=search

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7rPkY7O-HU&feature=search

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHwVQmZVZL4&feature=search

And a newer one . . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2i0iZcLIrTQ&feature=search

[Syn7]

Can you post some videos of some smaller guys defeating bigger guys. When I say smaller i mean significantly smaller more than ten pound difference?

download the mudials for 04 and 05 to see jacare win... and its more than a 10 pound difference between the two... probably more like 20 or 30 pound difference... at the most elite level, thats an absolutely HUGE difference...

[Syn7]

lol hong man choi


i thought he meant two high level grapplers with weight difference... there are tons of examples of smaller guys beating up bigger guys tho... i dont think anyone disagrees with that... too many examples right on youtube...

anyways 83kg vs 97kg is a big difference when its the best of the best... thats over 20 pounds...

[HumbleWCGuy]

jacare won the mundial open division 2 times at around 83kg's... 2004 and 2005 open div. champ... and he beat big guys, 95 to 100kg's... roger gracie is a big guy... and thats bjj's highest level so you know the skill gaps were minimal and it usually comes down to who timed their peak in their training better... but smaller guys can and do win all the time, even at similar skill levels... and its not just a few lucky ones, there are consistancies there... but ofcourse physics will always leave the numbers favoring size... no doubt about that one...

Bjj tournaments aren't fighting.

[t_niehoff]

Bjj tournaments aren't fighting.

Only someone clueless about grappling would say that.

For those who asked about big weight differences in grappling tourneys --

Part 1:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6MlxA9ysik&feature=search

Part 2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNzA4RdZnh0&feature=related

[HumbleWCGuy]

Only someone clueless about grappling would say that.

For those who asked about big weight differences in grappling tourneys --

Part 1:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6MlxA9ysik&feature=search

Part 2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNzA4RdZnh0&feature=related

Only a coward who I have exposed as one would make a big deal out of such an obvious fact. The bottom line is that their are a whole bunch of guys just like you who never trained upright with any proficiency because you were and are still afraid of getting hit. Now, you are born again "hard" because you train with some half decent fighters. LOL

Your clips prove my point. Garcia has all that Rodriguez can handle in a bjj tournament. However, Garcia is just above smoker level in mma where Rodriguez was a UFC champ.

[t_niehoff]

Only a coward who I have exposed as one would make a big deal out of such an obvious fact. The bottom line is that their are a whole bunch of guys just like you who never trained upright with any proficiency because you were and are still afraid of getting hit. Now, you are born again "hard" because you train with some half decent fighters. LOL


It's simply amazing how you make up sh1t in your bizarre mind.



Your clips prove my point. Garcia has all that Rodriguez can handle in a bjj tournament. However, Garcia is just above smoker level in mma where Rodriguez was a UFC champ.

Your conclusion is unsound - not surprisingly.

Whether a grappling match - or a boxing or MT match for that matter - is a fight does not depend on the outcome of some other competition (with a different rule set). It's a fight because both contestants are going *realistically* full-out (100% power and speed), doing their very best to finish (submit) the other guy.

And, fwiw, Garcia, unlike Rodriguez, didn't begin training in MMA until very recently.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Whether a grappling match - or a boxing or MT match for that matter - is a fight does not depend on the outcome of some other competition (with a different rule set). It's a fight because both contestants are going *realistically* full-out (100% power and speed), doing their very best to finish (submit) the other guy.

And, fwiw, Garcia, unlike Rodriguez, didn't begin training in MMA until very recently.

So if I thumb wrestle my hardest, it is fighting?



I will concede that "tournament bjj" is related to fighting, but isn't fighting.

[t_niehoff]

So if I thumb wrestle my hardest, it is fighting?


No, because it has to be a skill set that involves either striking or grappling (or both). Sorry I didn't make that explicit, but I thought even a mentally challenged chimpanzee would understand that.



I will concede that "tournament bjj" is related to fighting, but isn't fighting.

Tell Shaolin how it isn't a fight:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_8O-fq-NI4&feature=search

[HumbleWCGuy]

No, because it has to be a skill set that involves either striking or grappling (or both). Sorry I didn't make that explicit, but I thought even a mentally challenged chimpanzee would understand that.

Greco, "tournament bjj," points tournaments and such are related to fighting but they aren't fighting. Why you might ask? Very simple, because you don't have to be a fighter to enter or win in them.




Tell Shaolin how it isn't a fight:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_8O-fq-NI4&feature=search


People get hurt worse in an NFL game. American football players use grappling. Many have used WC to get an edge. Sorry, that isn't fighting and neither is the clip.