Single Whip

[dingo]

I have a question about an application I have been taught for single whip. First off, I am a beginner in Wu style taiji, and the applications we are shown are in no way meant to be applicable to real life self-defense situations at our level. The application we are shown (we don't practise it, for reasons that will become clear) for single whip is that the index finger and thumb of the "crane's beak" (is that what it is called?) are used to strike the eye of your opponent. Now, is it me, or is this a really dumb application for single whip? It doesn't seem like it would work in real life, even with heavy modification. Also, it doesn't seem to chime with the way single whip is done in the form. Could someone please help me out here? :)

[count]

Of the dozens of applications of single whip in tai chi chuan that would be on the bottom of the list. One application might be hook block the punch using the crane hand to control, and throw with the front hand while stepping behind. But applications of tai chi chuan are never one thing. They always depend on the situation. My best advise to you is to keep practicing and when you are given an application try it out against an opponent and see if it works. If the applications aren't meant to be useful in real situations, what is the point? Crane style does use the beak under the eyes, to the temples etc. etc. but that is another kind of kung fu.O

[Water Dragon]

See the thread on the difference between press and push. I pushed it to the top for you.

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

[PlasticSquirrel]

that's a very weird application, and i have no idea how someone could turn it into that.

the best application, in my opinion, to help you understand the movement, is this-- you grab the opponent's arm (or leg) with one arm, pull it back to pull your opponent off balance, and then follow up with a strike to the chest.

as count said, there can be many applications for movements, but to that one is the most commonly-used one.

when i first started looking at taiji, i saw a weird application that used the crane beak to strike the side of the head. in my opinion, even though there can be many applications, some are more correct than others. they are built around one main application, but can be used for many.

[Scarletmantis]

My favorite application for the single whip is to hook the opponent's attacking arm with the Crane's beak while snaking the open palm under his/her arm to strike the sternocliedomastoid muscle. This position will place the attacker's elbow across your chest giving you a Chin-Na leverage for an elbow break. Be sure to step behind your enemy's leg with your leading foot and seperate your arms quickly and smoothly at the apex of the movement. It's a wicked move since you are essentially accomplishing three things with one technique, i.e. breaking his root for a throw, breaking his arm, and striking an extremly vital target. Try it out! :eek:

"The essence of life is struggle and it's goal is domination. There are higher goals and deeper meanings, but they exist only within the minds of men. The reality of life is war."

[JerryLove]

While I cannot say I often use the movements fro TaiChi as they are in the form... In terms of using the "beak" hand defensively and then coming in for a strike, I would think a shallow "snake creeps under" would be more applicable. The "single whip" with circling I see as more of a break for a wrist grab ad then a push/strike from the palm. I can also see a good argument for using the palm hand both defensively (ala Hsing-I or Tjimande) and offensicely by clashing and striking through.

If you were to use the beak as an attak, the posture changes, but it doesn't sound that awful. Strike with the beak and then striek the same spot with the forarm while starting a grapple. Of course, once I contacted with the other arm, the movement would start to look more like "monkey retreats" or "brush knee" than single whip as I want to continue inflicting damage.

[Sam Wiley]

While you can theoretically use the tips of the hooked hand to strike there are better places to strike than the eye. The temple, mentioned above, is one of them.

However, I would advise using that hand as a punch. I don't remember how Wu style Taiji does it, but in Yang style, the hand circles into the hook (indicative of the hook "block" uses above) and then thrusts outward. The thrust is indicative of a punch. The mechanics demand that the punch go downward instead of straight forward, though. If you are using the eye as a target, I suggest punching downward with the middle knuckle into the top edge of the bottom of the eye socket.

I learned to do the hook with the tips of the fingers together instead of the pads, and that makes me lean more toward the punch than a pecking movement.

Generally, though, the basic application for the posture as a whole is a "shaving" block to a right punch, step behind with the left foot, and bring the left arm across the chest for a throw over your thigh.

*********
"I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust."
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice

[MaFuYee]

dingo,

if i were you, i would say to whoever show that to you, "WHAT ARE YOU STUPID?!?!?! I'M JUST A RANK BEGINNER, AND I KNOW THAT IS TOTALLY DUMB! - WHO THE HELL TOLD YOU THAT NONSENSE??? - DON'T MAKE ME KICK YOU IN THE NUTS!!!"

peace outside!

[MaFuYee]

* for those who lack the sense of humor gene; that was a joke.

[HuangKaiVun]

In my combat usage, the "beak" of the single whip CAN be used as an eye jab.

What I'll do is extend one finger into a mantis hook and use the technique as a two hit combo by striking at the eye with one arm and then fingerjabbing with the other.

My main goal is not to hit with the "beak", but mainly to force the opponent to parry or confuse him before he breathes through my fingerjab.

This move I often use in close quarters (grappling range) when I have my arms pinned to my chest by a bigger opponent and can't extend them very far.

[dingo]

Thanks everybody that replied, especially Water Dragon for pushing that old thread to the top and Ma Fu Yee - LMAO! I did actually think of saying that to the guy the first time I saw it (slightly more politely, though :))! So I guess, to sum up, it's not (that) crazy, but it's not the most common application for single whip. i guess I can live with that. I hope as I progress they don't keep saying that that is the main app for single whip - then i think i would start to get worried. Anyway, thanks once again.

[TenTigers]

Can anyone tell me why single whip-for that matter grasp bird's atil into single whip is performed only on one side? I am assuming that it is related to energy balance, but exactly how? I know that Mantak Chia teaches a simple short 'form' based on these movements on both sides in order to introduce his students to Ch'i Gung, but how balanced is this?

[SSgungfu]

hey ill go for a long shot and try to answer this one...

if you look at alot of chinese martial arts, the forms are, alot of times, only done on 1 side. this isnt limited to single whip...so we have to get to the root of the problem now, which is bigger then 1 mere taichi technique...

I think the reason is because it is expected that it can be performed on both sides. i think if you repeated each technique on both sides in all forms, it would be repetitive and boring.

just because the move is performed on the right side of the form means nothing. It would be very beneficial to practice every technique on both sides, but it is not essential for reaping the benefits of taichi or peforming better in combat.


so short answer, you dont need it on both sides, because it is thought that you'll be able to perform them ambudextrously regardless. we wouldnt want to break the flow now would we...

[kungfu cowboy]

If you train it, it will come. But if you don't? I dunno, I think that if you only work the right, you will only get the right. Try doing the form on the left. It's not instantly there just because you trained it on the right.

[GT]

If you train it, it will come. But if you don't? I dunno, I think that if you only work the right, you will only get the right. Try doing the form on the left. It's not instantly there just because you trained it on the right.

I suppose if you only trained the forms that would be true. However weapons, push hands, and other training helps overcome this problem. You are training the body to use certain energies (methods of body movement). To practice only the form is incomplete.

[kungfu cowboy]

Ok, that makes sense. I only know about a quarter of Chen's Yi Lu. Hopefully will learn all the rest of the everything someday. Cool stuff. Can really see how some serious power can be developed, even though I suck.

I can see push hands and other drills making a huge difference, and being necessary and vital to correct application of the art.

[jon]

Ok im going to put on my flame retardent clothing here...

This was done deliberately to crock the fighting skill of many low level students. The form has many movements which are only performed on one side.
The old way is to simply learn the whole darn form in both directions. This was not usualy done however untill the student reached a closed door training level. Still not everyone has the time but if you want good skill its worth not being only skilled on one side;)

This is the way its done in my school and believe me its darn hard to try and do it the other way at first.
Still the end result is worth it.

[kungfu cowboy]

Are you saying that it would not be better to learn and practice each move for both sides concurrently?

[Kaitain(UK)]

if you examine the core movement of single whip - i.e. the body then it is repeated on both sides of the body throughout the form - the arm movement is merely an extension of what the body is doing

To me single whip is like the beginners guide to waist movement:

'here's what waist movement should be throughout the form - we'll do it with your arm first so you can actually see/feel whether it's working. Once you get used to it then you'll know if it's right without the arm"

Just my perspective - there's no need to train the form both sides because both sides are already being trained equally - look beyond the gross arm movements to what the waist is doing.

[kungfu cowboy]

What about the waist being the gross motor movement that drives the more 'refined' arm movements.

And why wouldn't those need to be practiced on each side?

[patriot]

Actually many experienced players also practice in the reverse direction. In push hand and application drills, the moves are definitely practiced on both sides.
I suppose one side is emphasized in the form to make it easier to learn.

[Kaitain(UK)]

push hands and application drills etc are not the form

equally 'refined' skill doesn't develop in the form - it's developed in pushing hands and da lu. Therefore there's no need to be concerned with training the mirror image of a movement that is mechanically covered amply in the form already.

sorry if terse - just getting to end of 16 hour day and still in the office

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

At the school where i train it is expected that the student learn the 108 movement Yang long form in both directions prior to moving to other forms and weapons. The concept is to familiarize the student with the path they may someday have to walk.. in other words, if the application requires that i use a left-side version of "single-whip" it will be helpful if i have done it 1000 times previously. Redundancy is better than insufficiency. The willingness of the student to balance both sides of the Tai
Chi experience is a signal to the instructor of that students direction.

Just another perspective from the Far-side.. Be well..

[No_Know]

Grasp Sparrow's tail is done on both sides in Yang 24. single whip follows cloudhands going to the left. Forms might present on one side to get you thre techniques. You have to do the training and practicing. So learn the forms, then be industrious.

If there was a form with Cloudhands moving rightward Singlewhip would be done on the ther side. If one technique is in one direction, certain ones that follow Have to be going a specific way to make sense for it to be there.

Like 1-2 combo right left. The reason for the second technique being left, is that the first technique primes the opponent for the second technique from that direction or in that way.

Learn the form as given. Then be industrious.

[Cody]

That's the conclusion I had come to. Good to have it validated.

Cody

[TenTigers]

maybe.....ok, listen; grasp bird's tail-both sides, repulse monkey-both sides, part horses mane-ditto, brush knee, kick with heel, fair lady at the shuttle,ditto,ditto, ditto. Single whip...repeats on one side NUMEROUS times througout the form-especially the 108-you'd think, at least ONE TIME it would be performed on the other side, yes? And as far as simply extracting the techniques and doing them lefty...many Hung-Ga, wing chun,southern mantis,etc sets are symetrical. A form as lengthy and repetitive as the 108 could just as easily not have repeated the sequences so many times and simply do them on each side. Any reseonably experienced martial artist would realize you can repeat movements from a form...so back to the original question. The reason I am being so dang persistant, is that I have heard mention that single whip in particular is performed in such a way that to do it on the other side is actually counterproductive. I'm not saying I'm buying into it or not. BUT...Tai Chi Ch'uan is a high level internal art. from the brief experience I've had in Hsing-Yi Ch'uan, and Bagua, all the forms were done on both sides. Now I have never studied liu ho pa fa, so I can't say, but isn't it a bit odd that Tai Chi Ch'uan is not taught symetrical?-especially since many noted masters practiced all three-i,e, Sun Lu Tang.

[TenTigers]

'clear as an unmuddied lake, sir." However, I am trying to delve a little deeper into this question than simply technique. perhaps someone with more experience can shed some light on this subject: What I am searching for is exactly what is happening within the body. Which meridians are affected by this specific posture? Or is it simply that out of every movement in the form, Chan Seng feng, the entire Chen lineage, the entire Yang, Wu,Hao, Sun lineages simply overlooked this one move that constntly repeated itself on one side only? or am I the only person in HISTORY that has ever questioned this? I have posed this question regarding the fact that in Hung-Ga, the leopard section is also not symetrical, performed 'righty' only going both ways, wheras the other animals are symetrical. My responses were shallow, to say the least. Mostly versions of "that's how it has always been done" or "you can always practice both sides"' The trouble is, when creating a set whose sole design is to pass on your system's movements, techniques, concepts,theories, training, faht-ging,hei-gung from one generation to another completely intact, I think that even a rank beginner would figure out basic understanding.

[No_Know]

Perhaps whoever came-up with or got it to where it is systemized today didn't want to expose the heart to a stabbing from behind as Single-whip--a strike to an opponent you are virtually turnin,,g your back on after hitting and facing someone rushing /attacking you from the left.

Perhaps it is so that you don't expose your heart to stabbing from behind while attacking high.

[brassmonkey]

I've heard some people say that it takes 10 years b4 you understand TCC, I'm far from that time and far from understanding tcc. From my limited understanding though it seems there are many ways to fight with tcc. One could probably fight only using single whip. The principle taught in single whip for application could be used in 10,000 or more ways, it could be used against a kick or on the right side or whatever the situation arises. If you understand single whip on the left side by the principals you should have no problem doing on the right but to focus on doing it on the right to even it out seems to be missing the point if your not understanding what its teaching.

[matt]

perhaps the single whip is only used on one side so that you can see the eye of the fish your making:confused:

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Tai Chi, and its various components, is uniquely individual in its interpretation. So many schools, so many claims, so many results.. is it solely a combat art, a meditation, a philosophy, a health tool.. is one style better, another lacking, one technique superior, another ineffective?.... As has been alluded to earlier, the results are manifested in the quality of the student.. what works for one may not work for another.. What if Yang Chengfu had applied himself to Aikido, or Chen, or Pa Kua.. our Tai Chi environment might well be completely different. I can say with certainty that each time i have met a sincere and dedicated practicioner, they have represented their art well, regardless of the art.

Right-side, left-side.. what works for the individual is what works.. again, excess will serve you better than insufficiency, which is why i, personally, find value in training both sides.. That there are differing opinions as to the validity of such training is inconsequential considering the benefit "i" derive from "my" experience.. That others derive their benefits from differing training methods causes me no harm, and, at best, offers me valuable perspectives from which to gauge my own experience.. Rather than supporting the ego with fervent defenses of one's own personal preferences, a sharing with the purpose of expanding awareness of possibilities might better benefit all involved in the Arts..

[count]

Is something missing from this thread now?:confused: (bob :confused: )

One might say when you are practicing single whip you are practicing both sides at the same time. The "one arm" principle is what makes single whip. One might say that it completes the circuit of chi and is not necessary on both sides. But the forms are nothing. In fact, and I thought the point was made already, originally there were no forms. Why wouldn't you practice single whip on both sides? As far as I know there are many more postures that are dominant applications in all styles that are only done on one side in your yang form. I'm guessing your asking about Yang style from your description as 108 and your other posture names. How about white crane spreads it's wings or bend the bow and sweep with the lotus leg or fist under elbow or play guitar or come up and form the seven stars or needle at sea bottom or shoulder stroke or, wait a minute, maybe some are done on both sides and you didn't notice? Yet you count 108 so you must be counting correctly.

Enough, forget about the forms. You SHOULD be drilling postures on both sides. You can not learn tai chi chuan from forms only. Yes, someone who is left handed may attack you.:rolleyes:

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I suppose i missed the intent of your last post.. to be clear, forms are simply "links" to the greater pursuit of Tai Chi.. forms are confining, restrictive.. once the forms are internalized, once you understand the "cause and effect", Tai Chi is simply what you "do".. Yang, Chen, QiGong (the disciplines i practice) serve as foundations for the Greater Tai Chi experience (life)... Forms are, indeed, useful.. but, they are not "IT"..

Why practice on both sides, Count?.. because i choose to.. it works for me..

Is something missing from this thread now? hmm, common courtesy, respect, etc.. the usual..

[count]

I suppose you are right. My post was addressing the missing/deleted post which made things clear and the reply at the top of this page. In fact my question is why WOULDN'T you practice them on both sides? Forms are useful for giving some idea of connecting energy and training a system. But they are a small part of a system as a whole. Sorry if you felt my post was discourteous, but respect must be given before taken. I was not being dis-respectful of you!

[count]

I inadvertantly called RAF by his name BOB. I wasn't refering to you Tai Chi Bob.:)

[Sam Wiley]

I'll take a stab at this one...
Firstly, the long form was only one of several forms from the Yang style. The movements are done on the other side in other forms within the system. Single Whip, for instance, is practiced on the other side in the Small and Large San Shou forms. In the original Yang long form, Grasping Sparrow's Tail was practiced a slightly different way each time, so you are not necessarily repeating the exact same movements.

Also, there is another art from which some, including myself believe Taijiquan originated. Grasping Sparrow's Tail is performed on the opposite side in one of the system's forms, and into the corner to boot. In fact, a great many of the postures from Yang style Taiji are performed in these older forms, sometimes with a devious little twist when it comes to application.

Besides that, you can always practice the form on the other side. Many people encourage it. And no art would consist of only one form and some push hands. Not any martial art, anyway.

For those who want to know, Single Whip acts on the Stomach meridian, and can be used as a qigong to heal the stomach if the disease state is too yin. You can also use Single Whip as a qigong to heal the joints by going from Press Forward, to Sit Back Ready, and into Single Whip, holding for a minute or so and repeating on the other side. Single whip is one of the movements in the form that give us grounding, or earth power, as well. That's one of the reasons you scrape the outside edge of your foot around to 45 degrees.

[Esteban]

Hi Count,

you wrote:

"Enough, forget about the forms. You SHOULD be drilling postures on both sides. You can not learn tai chi chuan from forms only. Yes, someone who is left handed may attack you."

I haven't kept up with the whole thread, but the question is (must) be a very old one. We can't believe that this generation is the first to note this. So, it's possible that the single-sideness of most tcc forms is intentional. It's also clear that the majority of people are also single-hand dominant, and that the body is not symetrical (only bilateral): i.e., the heart is usually on one side of the body; same for the liver, not the same for the kidneys, lungs, eyes, etc: and that one side of the body usually develops differently we're either a righty or lefty. OK, there are naturally ambidextrous people, and its possible to train and become pretty fluent with both hands. But, imho, becoming truly ambidextrous by training is even rarer than having natural ambidexterity. What usually happens is that we can become very good doing a specific thing with bot hands. For example, a person can be considered ambidextrous if he writes with the left and throws with the right; or, otoh, lots of people can throw with both hands, but they neither throw, write, punch, etc. the same on both sides. Anyway, I agree, it is traditional to practice the individual tcc movements repetitively on the left side (although I wouldn't insist that the traditional form is right-handed). Practicing the entire form on both sides goes back at least to Fu
Zhengsong. Whoever said that, in terms of body movement (not arm movement), the form is symetrical whether done on either side is entirely correct. However, in general, there are few who would disagree that the average boxer is at least as competent as the average internal or external martial artist. Yet, there's a jab, a cross, a hook, etc., etc., and very very few boxers are ambidextrous or can be trained to stay that way *after* they've been hit. So, I'd never say that one has to train everything on both sides. OTOH, I believe that one should do it in order to train the mind. Years ago, when someone asked about the "left" form, it was suggested that they simply teach it to themselves --if they wanted to learn. To do that, though, you really have to analyze the "right" form. It's an opportunity to find out whether you really know the form you do. It was also used as a way to help train others. For example, senior students would do the left hand form as a type of mirror for the beginners. Finally, doing the opposite side helped prepare the student for "Side B" (in the two-man form). I agree with Count about doing it, but I disagree that it's because the form is incomplete or can't be used to deal with any attacker. Single whip can be used in any direction just by moving one's feet. imho

Respects,
Esteban

[looking_up]

I agree with esteban. You really have to think about the form
if you want to try to do it on the other side. One side "teaches" the other side. And you cannot "teach" your brain/body how to do it on the other side if you cannot do it right on one side. For example, I can throw a frisbee OK with my left (non-dominant) hand by copying what my right side does. When I start to throw it funky with the left, I do it with the right a few times to "show" my left side how to do it correctly. This movement is much like single whip, by the way...

[patriot]

With all the time wasted discussing on this board, you could have learned to do Single Whip on the left and right side, left and right at the same time, front and back, upside down, underwater, on skates etc. etc.

[illusionfist]

At one time i also wondered about this single whip question, although i think my situation was a little different because i do sun lineage, and sun doesn't use the hooking hand posture that the other families have. The sun lineage single whip still focuses on lie jing, but it has more of a ripping cotton feel that is more reminiscent of hsing yi. (ala san ti and pi chuan).

When i asked my sifu about this, he said, "in tai chi there is no left or right side. There is only unity and balance." When he said this i was totally confused because at the time i felt it was totally favoring one side and not the other. Later on i realized that single whip is a very balanced posture when you analyze the jing it uses. So once i got passed the physical issues (such as hand posture and stances), the answer became quite evident.

Tentigers- The Pao Ying found in the LSW ng ying and sup ying is definitely right side dominant. From what i have been taught, its right side dominant because its a very yang set of moves, thusly focusing on real hard strikes. So the emphasis was on the right side because more people are right handed, and this is a killer set of attacks to use when fighting. In the overall scheme of things, it really boils down to fighting and protection of the heart. The leopard is a very hardcore animal, so it leaps into the face of danger, so sometimes that puts it into a bad situation, thus the need for ferocious strikes and a need for protecting the heart.

As for the tang fung ng ying, if i'm not mistaken, they do their pao ying on both sides. Different strokes for different folks i guess.

Peace :D

[Spirit Writer]

Of course, being able to switch hit is great, but, it is not allways necessary. My point. You were a baseball mit in one hand, and can catch everything. Tennis racket also in one hand. Same side, forehand and backhand, takes care of everything.
I think if you get a few core ideas down on the side you like it, maybe two or three with a right lead and two with a left, you have a good palate to choose from.
Also, if you are right handed, train new ideas with your left. You're right will get it automatically.
Or maybe I'm full of balony.

[ddh]

If you consider that the left side of the body is considered heaven (left hand earth point of heaven side - gathering) and the right, earth (right hand heaven point - active) are magnetic poles according to traditional taoist thought, it is no mean step to understand that the traditional left sideness of single whip is meant to follow the idea of gathering energy. Since, traditional Taiji chuan is steeped in Taoist spiritual/medical ideas, a good study on traditional Chinese medical concepts is a good suggestion for anyone engaged in this art.
Obviously, movements should be practiced on left and right sides of the body to use taiji movements in combat. :cool:

[Paul T England]

Ok, I have my thoughts but why do people think that the single whip technique/posture is called "single Whip"?

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[taai gihk yahn]

Ok, I have my thoughts but why do people think that the single whip technique/posture is called "single Whip"?

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk
wasn't it based on an older use of the term in Shaolin long fist? maybe Sal Canzonarri or bawang will have a more definitive answer...

incidentally, my teacher has found it given in an older text as "transforming the elixir" (丹 變), which is the translation we use;

[cerebus]

Ok, I have my thoughts but why do people think that the single whip technique/posture is called "single Whip"?

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

It's 'cause every single time I use it I'ma whip someone's azz! :p

[SPJ]

depending your facing

the right hand and the left hand will be pointing to the east and the west

both arms are like that of a long snake with the head and the tail.

it is also like a long whip and of course the tail part or end of the whip will be whipping.

----

similar move has different names in different styles

such as tong bei shi or thru back posture

golden pheasant shaking feather or golden rooster shaking head

jin ji dou ling.

----

tomato or to mah to

[tiaji1983]

My thoughts on the subject has to do with the body mechanics. Fajing starts at the ground, goes up your legs, guided by the waist, up spine, to shoulders, out to hands, or whatever the weapon may be at the time. Fajing uses your body as though it was a whip... I was told that the names are clues to applications. You have unlimited"whips" to use, so it would indicate a single handed strike, a single leg kick, a single bump, etc with fajing... But to think that way limits the movement to one thing, when it is really many things. It can be used as its own complete arsenal. It can be used as Qinna, Shuai Jiao, a strike, a kick, even as a Qigong... The different styles have different ways of doing it and different possibilities in applications, as well as similarities in applications, so its hard to say. Best to not worry about the names, and worry more about the movement itself and how to use it...

[RenDaHai]

When you crack a whip you throw it out and then pull it back.

With the single whip you can wrench their body in one direction and then strike it back in the other, kind of like cracking a whip. One of the applications. Plus the arms are flung out kind of like a whip.

[Paul T England]

I like the last two responses, thats what i am thinking, not application but body movement/fajing :)

Most techniques have naff all to do with a specific application IMHO...

Using this method of analysis also means that no specific style is incorrect, yang, chen, wu etc all doing it correctly if they coordinate from their dan tien and use power from the ground up.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk