Having flat or vary tuition fee rate

[SteveLau]

I have been contemplating the topic lately. And then I have read a related thread about long term and short term training course in the Kung Fu Forum here. My question is whether it is alright to have one tuition fee rate in MA school? Or vary rate is still alright? I guess it has a lot to depend on the goals of the school, and the principles behind them.

So, what is your view?




KC
Hong Kong

[TenTigers]

most proffessional schools have "upsells," meaning upgraded programs. They start a beginner off at a basic program, basic price, then after a year, upgrade them to a more intense program with a higher price. Some schools have more than one upgrade.
They might have a basic, advanced, and leadership, or outer door, inner door, or a Black Sash Club , or whatever.
I really don't have an issue with upgrades, so long as you are giving the student more value for their dollar. To upsell someone and give them empty promises is just squeezing them IMHO.

If what you mean by flat or varied is a sliding scale-once a week-$, twice a week $$, three or more $$$, etc. Most schools do that. I don't. I "sell" them a membership, as if you were joining a gym, one flat fee, and you can go unlimited times.
This is good for the few people that will actually take advantage of it and come in every day. Very few actually do this. Most come in 1-2 times a week, so I am not filling up my school, yet I am offerring them a better deal than most schools.
Then again, I am not a huge school, or a multiple school operation.

[SteveLau]

TenTigers,

Thanks for your reply. By one flat fee, I mean one price for all memberships. The class schedule is also the same for all students. Sure, they might not attend all class sessions per week all the times. By vary fee rate, I mean say $$ for student A, and $$$$ for student B. Because student A attends regular class, while student B attends private class in which he is the only student in the training session.

By the way, I support your fee system. At the same time, I have reservation on the upgrades. It occurs in school teaching subjects other than MA. But charging student more for teaching him advanced techniques can have a terrible agenda. Say if it means the student needs to pay more if he wants to receive good training with no hold back. Otherwise, he will just receive superficial stuffs which is comparable to video training material available off the shelf.


KC
Hong Kong

[MasterKiller]

I charge $50 for 24 hours of class time a month (2 hour classes 3 times a week). Everyone pays the same. Whether they use it all or not is their decision. I have to be there and ready to run a class every time regardless.

No extra fees. No testing costs. I make a little money from my pro shop, but still sell cheaper than if they bought the stuff retail.

For people that just want to come in once in a while, I have a $10 mat fee.

[polo123]

I charge $50 for 24 hours of class time a month (2 hour classes 3 times a week). Everyone pays the same. Whether they use it all or not is their decision. I have to be there and ready to run a class every time regardless.

No extra fees. No testing costs. I make a little money from my pro shop, but still sell cheaper than if they bought the stuff retail.

For people that just want to come in once in a while, I have a $10 mat fee.

same with here !!!!

[MightyB]

The club I go to uses a flat fee punch card. $50 gets you 8 punches. How you use them is up to you. Each class requires a punch. Here's the class schedule: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=468620&id=137784609570459

Seems to work out well for the students and instructors.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I think it depends on what your financial obligation is to the school you teach at. I used to hate contracts but I do understand why instructors use them, because when you start paying rent, utilites, insurance, ect. it gets pricey and one has to have a return on their investment.

Most of the schools I have been a part of or taught at were small club type schools with low rent and overhead so we didn't do contracts or varying fees but again I understand why they are there. So long as the the training is good and people are paying for it do what you have to do.

[SanHeChuan]

The club I go to uses a flat fee punch card. $50 gets you 8 punches. How you use them is up to you. Each class requires a punch. Here's the class schedule: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=468620&id=137784609570459

Seems to work out well for the students and instructors.

That's novel idea. Do you need so many punches to advance in rank, like say 32?


SteveLau
By one flat fee, I mean one price for all memberships. The class schedule is also the same for all students. Sure, they might not attend all class sessions per week all the times. By vary fee rate, I mean say $$ for student A, and $$$$ for student B. Because student A attends regular class, while student B attends private class in which he is the only student in the training session.

Everyone I know charges more for private lessons. Example A and B don't seem to be in conflict. Because student A doesn't get private lessons while student B does. Student B get's "more" so it is fair to charge them more.

A school here has a "sliding" rate for how many days a week you want to go 2,3,4. Not much extra for an upgrade either, maybe $15. Private instruction is about time and a half as much as what it would work out to for one class a week.

Another school has a flat monthly rate that cost twice as much but offers more than twice as much class time/content. I ?think? the private rate is about half the monthly tuition.

[MightyB]

That's novel idea. Do you need so many punches to advance in rank, like say 32?


It's not like that. You gain rank based on skills tests and outcomes at tourneys just like any other BJJ club.

The punch card system is actually quite effective. It allows the student to decide how much they want to participate. If they go everyday - it'll cost more. If they go once a week - they can stretch it out to two months. The average student trains twice a week. I like it because I participate in numerous clubs. My Judo club uses a similar punch card system, but it's only $35 for 8 punches. So, currently I do BJJ twice a week and Judo once a week, and it doesn't break the bank.

NAPMA advocates a similar structure. Maximize floor space by using a punch card system. Have strictly defined class times. Be prompt in starting and getting students off the mat at designated times. Require punch-ins at the start of each new class. So, if a person wants to do Gi and no Gi in the same night, it's two punches. You can do this in Chinese MA. Designate times for children, adults, beginners, and advanced. Ad a tai chi or chi kung class. Ad a cardio fitness class. Ad a forms, sparring, self-defense, and a weapons class. Next thing you know, you have several billable hours of class time a week. Use a punch system, and allow students to pick what they want to do.

[GeneChing]

...it's all about private lessons. ;)

[Yum Cha]

...it's all about private lessons. ;)

Ok Gene, what's the go?

What are the rates for private instruction?

[GeneChing]

I know of someone who charges upwards to $300 an hour. Personally, I think that's outrageous, but he gets it. I could ask around a little if you're really curious. In my position, I don't like to pry about rates too much, simply out of professional courtesy.

I suppose this warrants a new thread - how much for private lessons?

[Yum Cha]

I know of someone who charges upwards to $300 an hour. Personally, I think that's outrageous, but he gets it. I could ask around a little if you're really curious. In my position, I don't like to pry about rates too much, simply out of professional courtesy.

I suppose this warrants a new thread - how much for private lessons?

Thanks, if $300 is the upper, and $50 the lower, it kind of fits.

How much is a session with a personal trainier in the lovely San Franciscan surrounds?

[SteveLau]

Thanks for your input, gentlemen. So far, this thread is very constructive. Yes, by private lesson, the student is then having a personal trainer. My current stand on the topic is as follows:

- There is more than one fee scheme that is good. e.g. flat fee rate.

- Having one flat fee rate and other rates for advanced class, special class, etc. at the same time are also acceptable.


The bottom line is that the fee rate should reflect the training program content , and not the training quality, as stated openly to the students.

Oh, since there is much interest in the topic, I would like to put one more question
here. What about if the school charges student on one end of the varying scale - zero. That means free training is given. My guess is that there might be problem if some students get free training while others do pay their monthly due.


KC
Hong Kong

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Group Instruction Beats Private Instruction.

Private Instruction is trading Dollars for Hours.

Group Training is always more profitable.

Of course, if you find the anomoly that tells you he charges $200+ per hour,
well that's a whole 'nother story.

I have spoken.

[TenTigers]

I concur with LPS..in all honesty, I don't know what to charge for privates. I have charged 150.00 an hr, but that was travelling to the kid's home (John Barry's son)
If you look at it this way, a lawyer goes to school for what, 6 yrs? And he charges 250-500, etc per hr.
I've been studying over 30 yrs. So how much is my time worth? Yeah, it's crazy.
BUT..personally, I also find private lessons to be draining. I really enjoy teaching a large group. I feed off the energy.
Dollar for dollar, unless you teach several privates a da, it ain't worth the time and energy.
Besides, group classes are infinately better. They get to feed off of that group energy, they get to touch hands with different types of people, the healthy competition is motivating.

[David Jamieson]

Beginners and intermediates will always benefit more from full class.

private lessons would be an expensive waste of time for the student and a profitable waste fo time for the teacher.

private lessons for beginners is a long road.
For people who have proficiency, they are quite good at getting further exposed to depth of knowledge that can actually be difficult to get in an open class.

[MasterKiller]

Oh, since there is much interest in the topic, I would like to put one more question
here. What about if the school charges student on one end of the varying scale - zero. That means free training is given. My guess is that there might be problem if some students get free training while others do pay their monthly due.


KC
Hong Kong

I have chairity cases from time to time, but I don't advertise it. Some kids just can't come up with the money, no matter what. But, if you aren't paying full price, you're going to be mopping mats and cleaning bathrooms after class.

[SPJ]

1. in order to encourage full attendance

one may draw lot among students that never miss a class

and get a full refund of their tuition.

2. flat rate for a period. be it 3 months or 6 months.

3. varying the rate may be due to seasons in a year just like air line ticket

more enrollment in the summer off school

fewer enrollemnt during school periods (lower rate to encourage more enrollment)

-----

[bawang]

u guys sound like pimps
kung fu pimps

[Dragonzbane76]

where's my money b!tch....

http://verydemotivational.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/129116302614609114.jpg

[SanHeChuan]

1. in order to encourage full attendance

one may draw lot among students that never miss a class

and get a full refund of their tuition.

-----

I like the idea of rewarding attendance.

Though comming to class is it's own reward. ;)

[MightyB]

3. varying the rate may be due to seasons in a year just like air line ticket

more enrollment in the summer off school

fewer enrollemnt during school periods (lower rate to encourage more enrollment)

-----

We experience the exact opposite. We're full in the Winter, empty in the Summer.

[GeneChing]

...it's all about cultivating high-end clientele. Sure, your bread and butter is group classes - that's what keeps your doors open. That's where you get the most work done really. But with private lessons, your student can afford to drop a few hundred an hour. That's high end. If you get enough of those lined up, it's a pretty decent gig.

To use the hooker analogy, do you want to be a $10 ho or a penthouse prostitute? :p

[David Jamieson]

Kung Fu just doesn't have enough hooker/pimp analogies I think. :p

[SanHeChuan]

http://bighugelabs.com/output/motivator9988f2c112668dc71d8676e2845131dff7110eaf. jpg

[Gowgee]

I personally find the one flat fee best, with people able to choose whether they want to take full advantage of it or not. On the flip side, there are different kinds of upgrades:

One where you can upgrade to different class contents - so for example, you can take a sparring class, or weapons class, or chi gung class etc. The problem with this is that it breeds a kind of emotional materialism within students, where people are always chasing after the next technique etc. People can lose their focus on really working what they have, and see the teacher and school as a place that puts out, rather than a community they can work with.

The second idea is different rates for different levels - most places have beginners, intermediates and big guns classes, and the rates can be different for all three. I think this is fairer, and promotes a better atmosphere of community.

My 2 cents.

[SteveLau]

I personally find the one flat fee best, with people able to choose whether they want to take full advantage of it or not. by Gowgee


Well, your 2 dollars input is highly appreciated. I share the above same thought too. One addition is that the school operator should have requirements in allowing student to take training class. In that there will not be spontaneous shopping. For example, it is a no no for a student without any knowledge and training of the style to take up a sparring class. This will keep student training with disrespect out of the school. In other words, the school should have training programs for different levels of student. So it will not be all up to the student to select what ever they want to learn. That will also help to prevent emotional materialism as you called it from appearing.


KC
Hong Kong

[Northwind]

Gotta say I am very happy I came across this thread... (I usually just wait for my email notification of threads but today I came to the site & cruised - it seems the email notification does let some slip thru)

Great to hear these responses.

I have been teaching on & off for about twenty years now, and although I have had a few go the road and make me proud...I am still teaching out of parks, etc. So I could use this thread and MANY more like it, where fellow teachers can share successes & failures, give advice - be it training games for the slow-ones or marketing ideas etc.

And yes, I know of NAPMA - but I can't afford them and it kinda seems to be catered to TKD types anyway.

So...Does anyone here either know of a site out there that caters to TCMA teachers sharing & communicating on topics such as these, or should we create an area here?

Am I the only one interested in this?

Thanks in advance ! :)

[TenTigers]

there should be a teachers/school owners MA business section

[MightyB]

And yes, I know of NAPMA - but I can't afford them and it kinda seems to be catered to TKD types anyway.


You don't have to use their program, just their methodology.

In a nutshell: Start with a good location, Advertise, pick a rate and an ideal number of students. Know what level you need to be at in terms of number of students in order to make your bottom line. Organization and structure are keys to success.

Create a variety of programs. Kung Fu can be broken down to many: Beginner and Advanced, San Shou, Forms, Weapons, Chi Kung, Tai Chi, Traditional Medicine and Herbology, competition prep, self defense, childrens, lion dance... Have a store in your building.

Also, create a limited teaching program for your advanced students with discounts given to students for teaching and assisting (all the way up to free training).

Now define start and end-times for these programs. Be prompt with starting and ending.

Promote a trusted student to business manager (pay that person something). Have students enroll, have a website, have a newsletter, offer bonuses to students who bring friends. Have the business manager call students who were with you and may have dropped. Have the business manager watch billing and collect promptly.

Did I mention you need to advertise?... read Guerrilla Marketing and get to it.

[TenTigers]

use the concept of modeling and benchmarking.
Find a school that is doing what you want to do, and making it work. Find the guys who are are at the top of their game, the leaders in the industry, and copy what they are doing.
In EFC, it's guys like Steve LaVallee, Ernie Reyes, etc.
If you do Kung-Fu, look at Tat Mau-Wong, John Wai, Doc Fai-Wong, Pablo Zamorra, etc.
Check out Tiger Schullmann. Many people are following his lead.
Rising Crane, who is on this forum is doing very well teaching traditional Kung-Fu, as well as integrating MMA into his curriculum.
David Ross and Michael Parella are working it.
It doesn't have to be Kung-Fu, heck it can be a really good gym, or dance studio.
Google and youtube are your friends!
Visit other schools, talk to the owners. Pick their brains.
Network, and surround yourself with the people you respect in the industry.
Stay away from the moaners and complainers. They're not making it work,, and all they do is bring you down. "The ones rowing the boat, usually don't have time to rock it."

[Northwind]

@10Tigers - Totally agree.

@MightyB - I agree here. However here is the tough part for me personally - "location". I don't have start up cash & can't get a small biz loan due to some @$$hole stealing my identity & screwing up my credit while I was living overseas...
So until I can figure out a creative way to get enough start-up funds, I am stuck being creative dealing with an outdoor location :(

[SanHeChuan]

Step 1 Steal under pants...

Find locations that you can use for free or for cheep; Churches, rec centers, gyms, other schools. Work multiple locations if needed.

build up a base of students.
Charge them.
Save.

Step 2 :confused:

Step 3 Profit. ;)