Taiji usage Question

[KC Elbows]

Taiji guys, what techniques have you found most useful in fighting, and are there any moves you do not find as useful, or, alternately, are there techniques that you find useful for your body type versus another and vice versa.

Solely fighting techniques, no iron body discussions/strength training, etc, solely moves you would use in fighting.

[David Jamieson]

techniques as found, no.

but principles? yes!

Yang is the tcc i practice when i practice tcc which is no where near as much as i give to other martial arts practice, but hey, its a long road right?

the principles of tai chi are more relevant than the actual techniques for me.

push/ pull/ rollback/ ward off/ yield

important principles that can be used in any and all h2h training.

not necessarily at 3mph though. :p

[YouKnowWho]

You can develop many useful moves from Taiji principles. When you use Lu (rollback) that your right hand control your opponent's right elbow and your left hand control his right wrist, you can use your right hand to push on his waist, and use your left leg to hook/trap his back leg.

[bawang]

theres a really good technique in taijiquan called punch the face. u punch with left fist then with right fist. its really useful
also u can swing around big haymakers called single whip its good too

[YouKnowWho]

theres a really good technique in taijiquan called punch the face.

People will say that you have

- "high level" skill if you can "yield" a punch.
- "low level" skill if you can deliever a punch.

It's very funny but this is the main problem for Taiji today.

[bawang]

who says that

[YouKnowWho]

who says that

For those people who believe there is such thing as "high level" skill. They may believe defensive moves such as yield, Sung, sticky, follow, ... are all high level skilll, and offensive moves such as kick, punch, lock, throw are all low level skill.

[SPJ]

tai ji punch or strike

fist, elbow, shoulder, butt/chest/back, knee and leg-- some may be grouped into kao

yes if there is an opening, we may strike away or kao away.

yes people may focus on peng lu ji an. but do not forget about cai lie zhou kao.

there are many zhou elbow methods in tai ji. shun ying zhou (followed eagle wing/elbow) is most well known.

there are many kao fa (method) in tai ji, too.

you may punch face, groin, chest/abdomen, ribside

zhi dang chui (pointing to groin) , ji di chui (strike the ground, this could be throw or heat butt, too), ---

beast head posture or shou tou shi may be double punches to chest/abdomen, face/chest etc.

for punches sake, I like beast head posture

other wise, I like elbow/zhou and kao methods in tai ji a lot.

---

too many I like.

[David Jamieson]

For those people who believe there is such thing as "high level" skill. They may believe defensive moves such as yield, Sung, sticky, follow, ... are all high level skilll, and offensive moves such as kick, punch, lock, throw are all low level skill.

as divisions go because sometimes they need to be made, yes. this is yin/yang reasoning. :)

as a demonstration of high level yeilding skill looky here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zUut60gfkU

:D dig it

[bawang]

For those people who believe there is such thing as "high level" skill. They may believe defensive moves such as yield, Sung, sticky, follow, ... are all high level skilll, and offensive moves such as kick, punch, lock, throw are all low level skill.
excuse my french, FUK THEM

[David Jamieson]

what did you think of the video though?

[bawang]

real kung fu

[YouKnowWho]

what did you think of the video though?

You can't "yield" your opponent to death. No matter how good your defense is, you still need offense move to finish a fight. IMO, over emphasis on defense is not proper. Most of the SC instructors don't even teach the defense skill in 3 to 5 years. It's better to attack, attack, and attack in the early training stage. I can't speak for CMA, but in the field of SC, people respect those who plays offense and lose than those who plays defense and win. The reason is simple. One day your attack will be successful. If you always play defense, you will never be able to develop your offense moves. Without effective offense (finish) moves, your MA skill is useless.

[Yum Cha]

You can't "yield" your opponent to death. No matter how good your defense is, you still need offense move to finish a fight. IMO, over emphasis on defense is not proper. Most of the SC instructors don't even teach the defense skill in 3 to 5 years. It's better to attack, attack, and attack in the early training stage. I can't speak for CMA, but in the field of SC, people respect those who attacks and lose than those who defenses and win. The reason is simple. One day your attack will be successful. If you always play defense, you will never be able to develop your offense moves. Without effective attack (finish) moves, your MA skill is useless.

To my mind, when you yield, as opposed to retreat, you are in a more effective position, closer with your opponent perhaps off balance, to deliver an effective strike.

[YouKnowWho]

To my mind, when you yield, as opposed to retreat, you are in a more effective position, closer with your opponent perhaps off balance, to deliver an effective strike.

There are 2 different ways to train your skill. Some styles wait for your opponent to make the 1st move and then counter it (if you don't move, I don't move. If you move, I"ll ...). Some styles like to initiate the 1st move and then lead your opponent into the area that you feel more comfortable (give before take). I prefer the 2nd approach. The reason is simple. The 1st approach has a lot of "unknow" (when you yield, your opponent may give you a nuts kick, round house kick, shoulder strike, elbow strike, knee strike, ...). The 2nd approach is more predictable (when you kick, your opponent can only block it or step back).

[Hebrew Hammer]

People will say that you have

- "high level" skill if you can "yield" a punch.
- "low level" skill if you can deliever a punch.

It's very funny but this is the main problem for Taiji today.

This is often heard in interviews with MMA trainers as well, developing offensive skills is easier than defensive ones. There are grades of skills in offense...but really good defensive skills I think take more work....its harder to anticipate and react to your opponent than it is to deliver your attack.

I prefer to punch face hard! :D

[KC Elbows]

To my mind, when you yield, as opposed to retreat, you are in a more effective position, closer with your opponent perhaps off balance, to deliver an effective strike.

In some ways, I agree. But I also keep in mind that there is nothing taoist about the idea of things always being one way. Yeilding is great except when it isn't, imo.

[David Jamieson]

There is no "one" way to go about anything really.
To create a system, you need parts that work with and compliment and support each other.

Yes of course you have to follow up.

Just like if you really want to understand how to fight, you are going to need to get in some fights. :p

I'm pretty sure that Ali could deliver on the low level stuff as well lol :D
But his yeilding technique was Superior!

When you can't touch a guy, his yeilding is overwhelming your attack.
When you can't yeild and you succumb, you are failing under the drive of his attack.

to have the skill to do both is what is required to be "good"

[bawang]

founder of taijiquan didnt base it on taoism. he dedicated it to taoism. theres a difference

[KC Elbows]

founder of taijiquan didnt base it on taoism. he dedicated it to taoism. theres a difference

Which founder?:D

[RenDaHai]

Dan Bian, (single whip)

Its my favourite of all techniques. Then again its not a taiji exclusive, it appears in every single kung fu style I've studied, including wing chun. Its in just about every shaolin form in some incarnation.

[bawang]

chen wangting. before yang luchan scammed the manchus taijiquan was called long fist

Dan Bian, (single whip)

Its my favourite of all techniques. Then again its not a taiji exclusive, it appears in every single kung fu style I've studied, including wing chun. Its in just about every shaolin form in some incarnation.
single whip is one of the oldest postures ever. it was its own fighting style

[David Jamieson]

Dan Bian, (single whip)

Its my favourite of all techniques. Then again its not a taiji exclusive, it appears in every single kung fu style I've studied, including wing chun. Its in just about every shaolin form in some incarnation.

It shows up a lot in the Tan tui set(s) as well. :)

[RenDaHai]

Yep, single whip forms the basis for some styles of hong quan (both hong as in flood and hong as in swan). In all its variations. Swan/vast hong quan almost uses it exclusively.

It features big in tan tui and is one of the top techiques in shaolin.

ANd it is extremely satisfying.

In fact can anyone name a style which doesn't use a variation of single whip?

[bawang]

hay rendahai. its a huge penetrating punch. amirite

[Sardinkahnikov]

This is the move you guys are talking about (single whip)?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxFhomp9xsI&feature=related

Can someone give me an example of a possible application?

[RenDaHai]

Yeah, its awesome. BIg and powerful.

Whip the opponent towards you while punching them away. Course there are a lot of ways to use it.

[RenDaHai]

This is the move you guys are talking about (single whip)?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxFhomp9xsI&feature=related

Can someone give me an example of a possible application?

Can't get youtube, but if you google single whip it will give you a lot of pictures

THere are many ways to use it but i suppose the most standard taiji version demonstration would be this; Say your in a left leg forewards stance, your right hand intercepts your opponants left on the outside. You form a hook hand over the top, momenterily capturing his arm, then fling your hand out to the side. This pulls the opponent foreward dramatically. At the same time as you fling the right hand back you strike the left hand foreward at his face. So you open his body and pull him towards you while simultaneously flinging your hand into his face. So it is more powerful because you have added the momentum of him falling forewards. On the inside, say you right to his left hand contact, just fling your right arm behind you which pulls him foreward and at the same time strike the left hand to his face.

Offcourse this is just one of many applications. Basically whipping the opponant one way while striking the other. It can be used as a capture, lock, strike, throw, it can be used from any starting position, it can be used in any frame from very small to very large, using the same 'whipping' principle. Plus many other ways.

I should add that stances in forms tend to be exagerated. In reality your hands may not be so far apart.

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://home.uchicago.edu/~aloria/CXW%20village%20single%20whip%20copy.gif

[Yum Cha]

Yeilding is great except when it isn't, imo.


The trick is to know ahead, instead of find out after...:D:D

[tiaji1983]

tai ji punch or strike

fist, elbow, shoulder, butt/chest/back, knee and leg-- some may be grouped into kao

yes if there is an opening, we may strike away or kao away.

yes people may focus on peng lu ji an. but do not forget about cai lie zhou kao.

there are many zhou elbow methods in tai ji. shun ying zhou (followed eagle wing/elbow) is most well known.

there are many kao fa (method) in tai ji, too.

you may punch face, groin, chest/abdomen, ribside

zhi dang chui (pointing to groin) , ji di chui (strike the ground, this could be throw or heat butt, too), ---

beast head posture or shou tou shi may be double punches to chest/abdomen, face/chest etc.

for punches sake, I like beast head posture

other wise, I like elbow/zhou and kao methods in tai ji a lot.

---

too many I like.

I agree 100% with your post. :)

[tiaji1983]

People will say that you have

- "high level" skill if you can "yield" a punch.
- "low level" skill if you can deliever a punch.

It's very funny but this is the main problem for Taiji today.

No disrespect, but what I see as the real problem is people dont understand the martial side of Tiajiquan. In Taijiquan your offense is your defense. A simple example is step back and repulse monkey, You yield by deflecting and controling, and as you step back, you stirke. so if why would you use a high level skill to create a low level skill...

[Three Harmonies]

Stepping back to strike is fruitless. Step back repulse monkey is a throw.

[KC Elbows]

Step back repulse monkey is a throw.

Is it a throw you make use of often?

[taai gihk yahn]

Stepping back to strike is fruitless. Step back repulse monkey is a throw.

I have seen at least one version of the form where the movement is done in a reverse stance (ie - Lt. foot fwd w/Rt. hand "repulsing") with the rear leg in the air - you could see it as either an outer reaping (like o soto gari) or throwing someone who is behind you (harai gosh?)

[bawang]

repulse monkey is a strike
why do tai chi ppl lke to turn simple strikes into funny awkward throws/qin na

[tiaji1983]

Stepping back to strike is fruitless. Step back repulse monkey is a throw.

Wow... Im sorry then sir, your teacher is hiding secrets from you. If you know how to use full body mechanics, you can strike from stepping in any of the 5 directions.

Fajing is a circle, if you do fajing to the front theres also fajing to the rear. If you step forward and do fajing, your also doing fajing to the rear, if you step back, left or right, same concept. You must know how to strike and move in all 5 directions, hence the 13 postures, not just 8, but 13.

Mohammed Ali knocked people out stepping back all the time... So how is it fruitless?

However, yes it can be a throw or takedown, it can be Qin na, a kick can be used in it as well, and it can be a strike.

[YouKnowWho]

as you step back, you stirke.
Don't get confused by the backward stepping of repulse monkey. Most of the CMA forms are designed in such way that you start and stop at the same point and facing the same direction. In order to achieve that, you have to adjust your footwork such as stepping backward sometime.

Someone asked me, "Why does cloud hands always step to your left?" The answer is simple, you can

- step to your right,
- walk in circle,
- use stealing step and spin,

for different application if you want to. The form should not restrict you from doing your appliaction.


repulse monkey is a strike
why do tai chi ppl lke to turn simple strikes into funny awkward throws/qin na
Of course you can use one hand to control your opponent's elbow and use the other hand to strike. You can also use one hand to grab and pull your opponent's leg (under knee) and use the other hand to push his shoulder (or head) at the same time. When you do that, since your backward footwork won't give you the momentum that you need, the forward footwork will be better.

[tiaji1983]

Don't get confused by the backward stepping of repulse monkey. Most of the CMA forms are designed in such way that you start and stop at the same point and facing the same direction. In order to achieve that, you have to adjust your footwork such as stepping backward sometime.

Someone asked me, "Why does cloud hands always step to your left?" The answer is simple, you can

- step to your right,
- walk in circle,
- use stealing step and spin,

for different application if you want to. The form should not restrict you from doing your appliaction.


Of course you can use one hand to control your opponent's elbow and use the other hand to strike. You can also use one hand to grab and pull your opponent's leg (under knee) and use the other hand to push his shoulder (or head) at the same time. When you do that, since your backward footwork won't give you the momentum that you need, the forward footwork will be better.


I agree, what you said is nothing unlike what I just said, only expressed differently. The 8 powers can be done in all directions. In repulse monkey, you step back, but that does not necessarily mean you have to. You can adapt the movement to any of the 5 directions. And it does not mean retreat. It means pretend to retreat to hide you advance. Always advance.

As far as the cloud hands section, I see what your getting at, but I would say step in any direction, and any circle and experiment with the movement and the possible applications. The form should not just not restrict applications, but the form should not be restricted to form or movements. Your form should eventually become formless.. Maybe thats the same thing your getting at, just worded differently as well...

[bawang]

Of course you can use one hand to control your opponent's elbow and use the other hand to strike. You can also use one hand to grab and pull your opponent's leg (under knee) and use the other hand to push his shoulder (or head) at the same time. When you do that, since your backward footwork won't give you the momentum that you need, the forward footwork will be better.

noe ur rong

repulse monkey's old name is "rolling forearm block". 卷肱 its block inside punch. cloud hands is a shaolinquan term for outer block. u block outside. u take a step back and block a punch.


we can now see a huge problem in tai chi. people interpret simple moves into esoteric complex "yielding" throws/fake qin na. to the point where basic blocks to punches is interpreted as throws.

even people with tons of experience in other martial arts and real fighting, when they do tai chi they accept the self hypnosis and irrational magical thinking.

[tiaji1983]

I agree Bawang, in the fact the simple works the best. But every move is more than one thing. The simple throws, locks and breaks in the moves are great if you have the right time and opportunity to use them, or you need them. Sometimes even the complex may be necessary. But most of the time the simple works the best. Same thing with Shaolin, Choy le Fut, Hung Ga, Wudang, or any other styles.

But at the same time, I think its necessary to break down every movement from the simplest application to the most complex, so its there when its necessary.

[RenDaHai]

repulse monkey is a strike
why do tai chi ppl lke to turn simple strikes into funny awkward throws/qin na

Agree 100%,

I always see Taiji demos where they turn every move into some wierd foot trapping, body locking throw that requires about 10 different elements to go your way perfectly to work. When you see the same move in shaolin (and EVERY move in Taiji appears in shaolin somewhere) its just a standard striking method.

Offcourse every move can be 'ti,da,shuai,na' that is capture, throw, strike, or kick. And all can be applied in the very small frame to the very large frame. But the standard strike or parry is the most often used, and most easily applied. Its a really strange thing with taiji where people try to overcomplicate really simple moves.

I agree people should try every type of application to expand their knowledge, but when it is frequently demoed as a complex throw, some people can't seem to find the simple move. They can't see the wood for the trees.

[bawang]

But at the same time, I think its necessary to break down every movement from the simplest application to the most complex, so its there when its necessary.

hey mang. u love taichi i love tai chi. but pulling wool over our own eyes in the long run is bad for tai chi. there is no wrestling application to forearm blocking a punch. period.

in kung fu theres profound in the simple. what looks simple is complex. dont let ur own expectations and desire for fancy things deceive u. look for truth, not dreams and illusion.

in repulse monkey stepping back and blocking is already the principle of soft. weird awkward fake wrestling is not anyhting.

[YouKnowWho]

You can use

- the 1st move of your Yang Taiji "Open Position Stance" as "block a punch". You can also use it as a "counter for leg shooting".

- "cloud hand" as "block a punch". You can also use it as "arm locking".

- "pull back" as "pull your opponent into you". You can also use it as a "shoulder lock".

It's up to you how you want to use the information out of your Taiji form. Some application may not be the form creator's original idea, but who care?

[bawang]

Some application may not be the form creator's original idea, but who care?
making up new techniques that dont work is taboo in kung fu and violates wude

and all those wrestling techiniques already have their own names

[tiaji1983]

hey mang. u love taichi i love tai chi. but pulling wool over our own eyes in the long run is bad for tai chi. there is no wrestling application to forearm blocking a punch. period.

in kung fu theres profound in the simple. what looks simple is complex. dont let ur own expectations and desire for fancy things deceive u. look for truth, not dreams and illusion.

in repulse monkey stepping back and blocking is already the principle of soft. weird awkward fake wrestling is not anyhting.

I agree... But if it works, and it follows the principles, its good Taichi. :) I definately agree people often over complicate the techniques, but a I also agree one move in the form should not only be one thing.

[air]

Personally, I think the tai chi form is great for connecting the body. But where i have found tai chi to be most beneficial for me is understanding pressure control.

Because of tai chi push hands it has made both my hands game and ground game much better.

I use to think wing chun was enough, but after understanding more the concept of true internal martial arts i would say wing chun is just a small piece of a much larger picture...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Stepping back to strike is fruitless. Step back repulse monkey is a throw.

Dude, Lidell KO'd so many that way, including Couture, remember?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Taking strikes and making them grappling moves is nothing new, the kata "experts" do this all the time, or they add weapons when they see that the empty hand move doesn't really work.
The thing is, the obvious grappling moves are obvious and the obvious strikes are obvious too.
Forms were never the main focus of training and to think that the developers of them developed them to teach fighting is wrong.
They are a catalog of techniques and principles yes, but not of fighting combos or sequences set in stone or hidden for that matter.

[bawang]

Forms were never the main focus of training and to think that the developers of them developed them to teach fighting is wrong.
They are a catalog of techniques and principles yes, but not of fighting combos or sequences set in stone or hidden for that matter.

have u actually put this into practice. i stopped doing forms and kung fu people me give no respect. now i "dont know anything"

[Lucas]

I think learning forms can be a cool fun way to pick up new techniques. but at a certain point, imo, the only reason to keep doing the form is because you want to, not because you need to. then you may never learn any forms again when u get what you want.

you might go learn 3 forms and only take away a few things from them that you actually like. but the point was you tried it out and took something of value. by trying it out you do get a chance to try out those techniques you decided werent for your daily practicing.

you can go around and just pick up techniques too without learning any forms, thats really the same thing except you dont have to learn a long string of things you can just go, 'hey show me how to do what you just did' and learn it on its own. forms 'can' be a good element of exposure to a compilation of things other people thought were good techniques.

western boxing is a really good example of this. you go learn boxing from a boxer and you are going to be given a set of techniques that you are going to learn and start using right away. but you are only going to learn boxing. you wont learn any kicks, or throws, or weapons. so boxing is a combination of a set of techniques, principles, and methods a long tradition of fighters put together that is conformed to the sport of boxing and its ruleset.

but at the same time not every boxer is the same. with what boxing has to offer you can turn out a good strong tough fighter that can use everything he learned in a relatively short amount of time. compared to most all cma this is a good contrast of concentration.

so really when you learn a form, and then get rid of it. what ever you found useful that you can actually use, it doesnt matter what it is, because you can use it and its good for your own fighting.

/end rambling tangent

[tiaji1983]

Taking strikes and making them grappling moves is nothing new, the kata "experts" do this all the time, or they add weapons when they see that the empty hand move doesn't really work.
The thing is, the obvious grappling moves are obvious and the obvious strikes are obvious too.
Forms were never the main focus of training and to think that the developers of them developed them to teach fighting is wrong.
They are a catalog of techniques and principles yes, but not of fighting combos or sequences set in stone or hidden for that matter.

I agree mostly with your post... Only techniques and principles are what make a style, no? I agree with you when you say; "They are a catalog of techniques and principles yes, but not of fighting combos or sequences set in stone or hidden for that matter," but there are useful sequences in combat, and hidden "secrets" of the styles in the forms as well. Also each move can have more than one application. If you can successfully pull off all the sequences and applications, and understand principles and can apply them in a real life situation, isnt that fighting?


have u actually put this into practice. i stopped doing forms and kung fu people me give no respect. now i "dont know anything"

Everyone learns differently, and the arts are just that, arts. Art forms are meant to change and develop. So if they dont agree with the way you train, if it works for you, f#ck 'em. It may not be the Traditional way, but the Traditional way is not for everyone. But at the same time, you may be a good fighter, but have you learned all there is for you to learn from the forms? Not saying you havent cuz I dont know you, just food for thought.


I think learning forms can be a cool fun way to pick up new techniques. but at a certain point, imo, the only reason to keep doing the form is because you want to, not because you need to. then you may never learn any forms again when u get what you want.

you might go learn 3 forms and only take away a few things from them that you actually like. but the point was you tried it out and took something of value. by trying it out you do get a chance to try out those techniques you decided werent for your daily practicing.

you can go around and just pick up techniques too without learning any forms, thats really the same thing except you dont have to learn a long string of things you can just go, 'hey show me how to do what you just did' and learn it on its own. forms 'can' be a good element of exposure to a compilation of things other people thought were good techniques.

western boxing is a really good example of this. you go learn boxing from a boxer and you are going to be given a set of techniques that you are going to learn and start using right away. but you are only going to learn boxing. you wont learn any kicks, or throws, or weapons. so boxing is a combination of a set of techniques, principles, and methods a long tradition of fighters put together that is conformed to the sport of boxing and its ruleset.

but at the same time not every boxer is the same. with what boxing has to offer you can turn out a good strong tough fighter that can use everything he learned in a relatively short amount of time. compared to most all cma this is a good contrast of concentration.

so really when you learn a form, and then get rid of it. what ever you found useful that you can actually use, it doesnt matter what it is, because you can use it and its good for your own fighting.

/end rambling tangent

Your method makes sense and its a good way to learn an abundance of techniques. It can make you a good fighter, But its no way to master a specific style. Someone who loves a specific style and wants to master it, will stick with the forms until they master them. When they use the techniques, the form no longer matters, but you can always learn more from your forms. My teacher has been practicing since the 50s and says hes still learning from his forms. It all depends on how you evaluate the form. Even the slightest movment can have an application in an abundance of situations. Even your stance, footwork, where you sink and raise, your eyes, your Qi, your wieght distribution, direction, everything has a meaning, and everything can be changed to make something else. But have you evaluated your forms to that point? If not, have you truly mastered the forms?

[sanjuro_ronin]

have u actually put this into practice. i stopped doing forms and kung fu people me give no respect. now i "dont know anything"

Dude, I can take almost any move and show you dozens of applications for it, be it striking, grappling or weapons.
Doesn't mean most of them will actually work for real.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I agree mostly with your post... Only techniques and principles are what make a style, no? I agree with you when you say; "They are a catalog of techniques and principles yes, but not of fighting combos or sequences set in stone or hidden for that matter," but there are useful sequences in combat, and hidden "secrets" of the styles in the forms as well. Also each move can have more than one application. If you can successfully pull off all the sequences and applications, and understand principles and can apply them in a real life situation, isnt that fighting?

Techniques and principles are what define a style, people are what makes it.
There are some useful sequences in combat, yes, but very rarely are they applied like they are done in forms.
As for hidden secrets, take that with a grain of salt.
Ever seen anyone win a fight with a "hidden secret" or is it usually good solid basics?

[KC Elbows]

Taiji is a bit more succinct than some kung fu styles. The empty hand alll encompassed in one form. Still, that's a lot of fighting moves.

I've never met anyone who was able to encapsulate each move in it's ideal application, the one that occurs most, in their fighting. Much less every variation they could think of.

Usually, the form already contains a superior approach in some other technique that performs what the obscure apps are trying to do.

[Lucas]

Your method makes sense and its a good way to learn an abundance of techniques. It can make you a good fighter, But its no way to master a specific style. Someone who loves a specific style and wants to master it, will stick with the forms until they master them. When they use the techniques, the form no longer matters, but you can always learn more from your forms. My teacher has been practicing since the 50s and says hes still learning from his forms. It all depends on how you evaluate the form. Even the slightest movment can have an application in an abundance of situations. Even your stance, footwork, where you sink and raise, your eyes, your Qi, your wieght distribution, direction, everything has a meaning, and everything can be changed to make something else. But have you evaluated your forms to that point? If not, have you truly mastered the forms?

thats really just part of my method regarding martial arts. i have 2 forms that i practice regularly, xiaohongquan and dahongquan. ill probably practice these 2 sets until i die or cant anymore, because i really like the style, and do continue to learn from these sets. i also keep a few weapons sets fresh.

i have a really open style of learning martial arts, i chose a long time ago to always be a student. and by that i dont mean the cliche of being forever the student but in that i dont plan to openly teach, ever. i teach a few people privately but they call me by my first name and i really just view them as training partners i am sharing my info with. i view my teaching time with them as a personal learning experience. as such ive taken it upon myself to review many different methods of learning and incorporate what i find useful into my own learning process.

the aikido ive been learning has no forms in the training, just the techniques and breakdowns and variations through application and pressure testing. i can these techniques and find the comparable variation in my shaoliln sets. its pretty fun to find these cross overs from style to style and see the difference in how the techniques are introduced and ultimately put into training and usable application.

i do agree that as a martial artist if one wants to really concentrate on a style, you need to fully absorb everything that style has to offer in terms of a training format. from cma to boxing to savate to judo to anything.

ultimately the importance of forms, imo, are determined soley by the practitioner in conjunction with their training goals.

[tiaji1983]

Techniques and principles are what define a style, people are what makes it.
There are some useful sequences in combat, yes, but very rarely are they applied like they are done in forms.
As for hidden secrets, take that with a grain of salt.
Ever seen anyone win a fight with a "hidden secret" or is it usually good solid basics?

Good points sir. :)

I agree sequences are rarely applied like they are in the form.
As for the secrets, it depends on what you mean as secrets. Sometimes simple techniques hidden in the forms (which can also be taught as basics) like the unbendable arm, or a finger or hand position thats not shown can win a fight, but yes, it is mostly good solid basics and deception.

[Lucas]

As for hidden secrets, take that with a grain of salt.


says the man with a fully forged PE fist lol :p