Internal IP training

[TenTigers]

we've seen several people on this forum demonstrate very good IP, however, I am interested in if people have any info or experience with more internal versions, such as cinnabar palm.
I have heard of practitioners delivering light (not mere touching, mind you, but not hard strikes) strikes that left full imprints.
I have heard of people striking and leaving a bruise on the other side of the body-this one, although sounds fantastic, I can sort of say I experienced. I struck a training brother and he said he felt it go all the way through to the other side. It wasn't anything mysterious, just faht-ging, a nice, short, pulse/shock punch. BTW-he was wearing chest gear.
So I can understand if someone had developed that o a higher degree.
What is the difference with the training?
For me, the shock power came from a combination of things, definatley relaxation/looseness. I am sure the training with the rings has helped as well.
What are your thoughts?

[Dale Dugas]

I think that all good IP has internal training in it.

I have internal training and the longer you train the more you naturally move toward the internal versus the purely external.

I do not practice my iron palm to break bricks but to bring into the self defense situation if need be.

it is more about your connection with the ground, your level of residual tension, and do you control your mind/body.

[Hardwork108]

I think that all good IP has internal training in it.

You should put that on your signature,as it is a very significant and educational comment for those who think IP is just to harden the hands and to break things.

[Hardwork108]

we've seen several people on this forum demonstrate very good IP, however, I am interested in if people have any info or experience with more internal versions, such as cinnabar palm.
I have heard of practitioners delivering light (not mere touching, mind you, but not hard strikes) strikes that left full imprints.
I have heard of people striking and leaving a bruise on the other side of the body-this one, although sounds fantastic, I can sort of say I experienced. I struck a training brother and he said he felt it go all the way through to the other side. It wasn't anything mysterious, just faht-ging, a nice, short, pulse/shock punch. BTW-he was wearing chest gear.
So I can understand if someone had developed that o a higher degree.
What is the difference with the training?
For me, the shock power came from a combination of things, definatley relaxation/looseness. I am sure the training with the rings has helped as well.
What are your thoughts?

In my Wing Chun studies, I was taught that IP was primarily about hitting through targets in a way that the energy penetrated through to the internal organs.

Hitting the sand bowl was one of the exercises that was practiced. The object was not just to hit the sand in a hard manner, nor to just harden the skin, but to penetrate the fist into sand, while combining and synchronizing the striking with special a breathing methodology.

Supplementary chi kung exercises were also practiced as part of the general kung fu training to create energy flow and relaxedness.

In the Chow Gar training, penetrative power came from this style's own body unity principles, combined with relaxedness, among other things.

I really believe that IP training is one of the most misunderstood areas of the TCMAs.

[Sardinkahnikov]

In my Wing Chun studies, I was taught that IP was primarily about hitting through targets in a way that the energy penetrated through to the internal organs.

Hitting the sand bowl was one of the exercises that was practiced. The object was not just to hit the sand in a hard manner, nor to just harden the skin, but to penetrate the fist into sand, while combining and synchronizing the striking with special a breathing methodology.

Supplementary chi kung exercises were also practiced as part of the general kung fu training to create energy flow and relaxedness.

In the Chow Gar training, penetrative power came from this style's own body unity principles, combined with relaxedness, among other things.

I really believe that IP training is one of the most misunderstood areas of the TCMAs.

Could you give more details about your IP training (breathing, etc)? I didn't know there was this, let's say, more offensive aspect involved in developing such skill.

[YouKnowWho]

I have heard of practitioners delivering light (not mere touching, mind you, but not hard strikes) strikes that left full imprints.

It's not that hard to do.

- Touch 5 finger tips on your opponent's body (face, chest, shoulder, ...).
- Drop the center of your palm on your opponent's body as fast as you can.
- Raise the center of your palm away from your opponent's body as fast as you can.
- You will put a black mark on your opponent's body the day after.

IP? You may call it whatever that you want. As long as you are using the exponational Fajin method (short range, slow-fast-slow) instead of the linear Fajin methdod (long range, slow-fast), you will get the same result.

[Hardwork108]

Could you give more details about your IP training (breathing, etc)? I didn't know there was this, let's say, more offensive aspect involved in developing such skill.

Iron Palm/Fist training is all about being offensive, as the intention is to cause as much damage as possible when hitting your enemy.

To be honest, it is really difficult to explain IP training in more detail. Generally speaking, the breathing is deep. The breathing out is like a "pulse", but not forced. The striking is relaxed, but on impact the fist is tightened.

Other TCMA methodologies may be different, but valid, and will surely overlap with each other.

It is difficult to explain. It is well worth finding a knowledgable sifu to teach you and accompany your progress. I know that this is easier said than done nowadays, but it is the best way.:)

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think we tend to classify things "internal and eternal" base don what we THINK is going on,
A big, wide smacking slap is external while a short, seemingly effortless slap is internal.
Maybe, maybe not.
Here is how I see the internal/external thing:
If a movement is over reliant on muscles and less on technique then it is eternal ( think a beginner haymaker), but when the same move is based on correct structure, alignment and proper muscular effort at the correct time ( maximum result with minimal effort) then it is internal.

My 2cents.

[TenTigers]

that's it? no one has anything to add?
jeez, I would've expected at least a page or two...:confused::mad:

[taai gihk yahn]

that's it? no one has anything to add?
jeez, I would've expected at least a page or two...:confused::mad:

don't worry, it'll flesh out once the flame wars begins...

[Dale Dugas]

I think the people in the know would rather train than argue with people who obviously do not.

enough said.

[David Jamieson]

I think the people in the know would rather train that argue with people who obviously do not.

enough said.

qft +1

lol :p

[Hardwork108]

I think we tend to classify things "internal and eternal" base don what we THINK is going on,
A big, wide smacking slap is external while a short, seemingly effortless slap is internal.

I would go a little further and say that the effects of the short effortless slap will also define how "internal" the strike was.


Here is how I see the internal/external thing:
If a movement is over reliant on muscles and less on technique then it is eternal ( think a beginner haymaker), but when the same move is based on correct structure, alignment and proper muscular effort at the correct time ( maximum result with minimal effort) then it is internal.
I would take this a little further and say that some correct structures and alignments are not so apparent, and can only be discovered and developed through correct training with a knowledgeable sifu.

Internals, also refer to, at least in some styles, to the development of internal muscles, sinews and tendons, as to aid strength and power release, among other significant things.

IMHO, even a well executed boxing technique cannot be defined as an Internal technique in the same way as one would describe a Hsing I or Chow Gar strike.

One way I would describe an Internal technique as opposed to an External one,is to say that "less is more", in the former methodology,eg. small circle defending, as opposed to larger circle defending; short range penetrating strikes, as opposed to long range ones.

Other aspects that go with the Internals are the mastery of fine-tuned "sensitivity and listening" abilities as well as advances level "sticking", all of which should in a perfect world be overlooked by a mind like water. The resultant liveness of technique will contrast greatly with externally executed boxing, or even karate strikes (or blocks).


Just some thoughts.

[teetsao]

the way i am trained,we go from external to internal,as you want results fast or it is not worth training on. the whole ,"it takes 10 years to develop this",if this is true why even bother??
we have external techniques,then we have internal. they can be practiced at the same time or seperate. i know some people preferr to practice what they call only internal and dont hit anything at all. but if you watch their videos,it takes them forever to "charge up" their hands before breaking anything. in a real combat situation you dont have time for that. not to get off topic.
our internal training has exercises,we dont hit anything as that is already being done, and it all revolves around "intent/yi", to a high degree,not that there are not physical exercises ,but when used,intent is the guiding force. it has nothhing to do with qigong,as most all qigong is the same,ie; brings qi from the dantian to the certain parts of the body,or circulates it. you shoulod be able to do this with your mind alone.
yes we do internal trainming as well,and sanjuro is right. correct structure is alot. 6 harmonies. the rest gets pretty esoteric so i wont go into it.

[TenTigers]

the rest gets pretty esoteric so i wont go into it.

why not.............?

[Ngfamilymember]

I love these type of conversations.

Train hard and train well,
-Ngfamilymember

[teetsao]

ngfamilymember, do you want to take over as we have the same training??
ten tigers, cause nobody in here would beleive me.

[TenTigers]

ngfamilymember, do you want to take over as we have the same training??
ten tigers, cause nobody in here would beleive me.
if you'd prefer, you can PM me...

[sanjuro_ronin]

I would go a little further and say that the effects of the short effortless slap will also define how "internal" the strike was.

I would agree with that.


I would take this a little further and say that some correct structures and alignments are not so apparent, and can only be discovered and developed through correct training with a knowledgeable sifu.

Yes, and no, a sifu can only take you so far.


Internals, also refer to, at least in some styles, to the development of internal muscles, sinews and tendons, as to aid strength and power release, among other significant things.

All muscles are internal dude.


IMHO, even a well executed boxing technique cannot be defined as an Internal technique in the same way as one would describe a Hsing I or Chow Gar strike.


Interesting, because high level IMA say the opposite.
I think you should ask Ip Shui, if you get a chance, about that, supposedly hey thinks very highly of western boxing, as do most TCMA sifu's.

[sanjuro_ronin]

ngfamilymember, do you want to take over as we have the same training??
ten tigers, cause nobody in here would beleive me.

Well, that's just it, the high level stuff is a different beast altogether and even though it all can be explained by biomechanics, it doesn't change the fact that "explanations never won converts".

[Ngfamilymember]

Well, that's just it, the high level stuff is a different beast altogether and even though it all can be explained by biomechanics, it doesn't change the fact that "explanations never won converts".
well said...


ngfamilymember, do you want to take over as we have the same training??
ten tigers, cause nobody in here would beleive me.
And no, I don't really have anything much to add, Some of us where fortunate to learn some of the unorthodoxed, esoteric methods passed on by Dr. John Winglok Ng and even though our teacher published articles on the basic elements of such methods, the discussion can be very vast sometimes and time consuming. The other thing though, is it is quite simple too, after you get past all the little tib-bits of this and that, it all boils down to proper mechanics, intent, and simple Faith.

I was just adding that I love these conversations, not because I feel I have nothing to offer or am too good to offer anything, it's just becoming a lost art and there are those who are in the "know" and still keep some of the knowledge alive and kicking.

Thanks, take care.
-Ngfamilymember

[MysteriousPower]

Internal iron palm training? How do you people walk around in fantasy land all day? It must be nice being on drugs and living in a fog your whole martial arts life.



If Mike Tyson hit your student I bet it would hurt a lot more than the strike you dealt him. He would probably say, "I felt that punch come out of my ass". Grow up

[sanjuro_ronin]

Rookies :D

http://spanking.com.ar/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/handprint.jpg

[Hardwork108]

Yes, and no, a sifu can only take you so far.
Well, the impetus primarily comes from the student. However, without a knowledgeble sifu, all the will and effort in the world will get you only so far.
.


All muscles are internal dude.
Maybe I did not express myself correctly, there are muscles that are apparent, like the six packs. However, there are training methodologies that will give you a hard stomach where there are no apparent six packs. And then there are the tendons and so on.


Interesting, because high level IMA say the opposite.
I think you should ask Ip Shui, if you get a chance, about that, supposedly hey thinks very highly of western boxing, as do most TCMA sifu's.

My Chow Gar sifu also has a high opinion of boxing and admires their relaxed movements. However, he would never refer to boxing as an internal art.

And I agree with you as many TCMA-ists have a healthy opinion of boxing.

[Hardwork108]

Internal iron palm training?

It exists and is as real as the universe that you live in, but just like the universe not many understand its history and potential.



How do you people walk around in fantasy land all day?

It has nothing to do with fantasy, but knowledge based reality.


It must be nice being on drugs and living in a fog your whole martial arts life.
:rolleyes:




If Mike Tyson hit your student I bet it would hurt a lot more than the strike you dealt him. He would probably say, "I felt that punch come out of my ass". Grow up

He would say that, unless he had trained in IRON BODY....:D

[teetsao]

mysterious power, just because you have no clue as to what is being discussed here doesnt mean it doesnt exist.
no one is delusional, none of us would want to fight mike tyson, however if we had to, now would be the time as he has been out of training for over a decade,and i understand his life style is not condusive of a ring fighter. i am sure he still has some of it in him and could hit like a freight train. no one would try to defend themselves against him as you would a normal person.
i am surprised however that you didn t say "bruce lee", LOL, LOL

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well, the impetus primarily comes from the student. However, without a knowledgeble sifu, all the will and effort in the world will get you only so far.
Two way street, a Sifu can only hold your hand for so long and then he becomes a crutch.


My Chow Gar sifu also has a high opinion of boxing and admires their relaxed movements. However, he would never refer to boxing as an internal art.

And there are many IMA that would disagree with him, William CC Chen is one, for example.

Internal is what internal does...

[taai gihk yahn]

Internal is what internal does...
actually, I think that one can look at so-called "internal" in one of two ways: training and outcome / effect

if we use training medthodology (the path up the mountain) as the yardstick by which we measure the relative "internalicity" of a given system, of course we can't say that boxing or wrestling are "internal" in the same way that something like taiji or even some of the hakka systems (e.g. - SPM, Chow Ga) are; that is because the focus, priorities, cultural context, etc. are very different from one to the other;

however, if we look at outcome / effect (the "top" of the mountain), we can see that (good) wrestlers develop what essentially is the equivalent of "teng ging" (listening skill), "pang ging" (uprooting), "gan" (rootedness) etc. to the point of being essentially indistinguishable from a skilled taiji player; and boxers, in my estimation, tend to be pretty good at delivering "fa jing" (power issuance) when they strike using pretty much the same mechanics as a xing yi or taiji guy does; similarly, boxing footwork is an excellent example of "hin gung" or lightness skill (in the realistic sesnse, not in the "run up a wall" artifact)

so the question is - if someone trains a so-called "interal" system and is not able to produce the results that a boxer / wrestler produces, who is ultimately manifesting "internal" principles?

[MysteriousPower]

actually, I think that one can look at so-called "internal" in one of two ways: training and outcome / effect

if we use training medthodology (the path up the mountain) as the yardstick by which we measure the relative "internalicity" of a given system, of course we can't say that boxing or wrestling are "internal" in the same way that something like taiji or even some of the hakka systems (e.g. - SPM, Chow Ga) are; that is because the focus, priorities, cultural context, etc. are very different from one to the other;

however, if we look at outcome / effect (the "top" of the mountain), we can see that (good) wrestlers develop what essentially is the equivalent of "teng ging" (listening skill), "pang ging" (uprooting), "gan" (rootedness) etc. to the point of being essentially indistinguishable from a skilled taiji player; and boxers, in my estimation, tend to be pretty good at delivering "fa jing" (power issuance) when they strike using pretty much the same mechanics as a xing yi or taiji guy does; similarly, boxing footwork is an excellent example of "hin gung" or lightness skill (in the realistic sesnse, not in the "run up a wall" artifact)

so the question is - if someone trains a so-called "interal" system and is not able to produce the results that a boxer / wrestler produces, who is ultimately manifesting "internal" principles?

Nice post.

[David Jamieson]

actually, I think that one can look at so-called "internal" in one of two ways: training and outcome / effect

if we use training medthodology (the path up the mountain) as the yardstick by which we measure the relative "internalicity" of a given system, of course we can't say that boxing or wrestling are "internal" in the same way that something like taiji or even some of the hakka systems (e.g. - SPM, Chow Ga) are; that is because the focus, priorities, cultural context, etc. are very different from one to the other;

however, if we look at outcome / effect (the "top" of the mountain), we can see that (good) wrestlers develop what essentially is the equivalent of "teng ging" (listening skill), "pang ging" (uprooting), "gan" (rootedness) etc. to the point of being essentially indistinguishable from a skilled taiji player; and boxers, in my estimation, tend to be pretty good at delivering "fa jing" (power issuance) when they strike using pretty much the same mechanics as a xing yi or taiji guy does; similarly, boxing footwork is an excellent example of "hin gung" or lightness skill (in the realistic sesnse, not in the "run up a wall" artifact)

so the question is - if someone trains a so-called "interal" system and is not able to produce the results that a boxer / wrestler produces, who is ultimately manifesting "internal" principles?

I don't make the distinction of external and internal in reference to martial arts practice.

I think it's just silly to look at the body as separate in that respect. There is really nothing but the whole body which includes mind. An integrated unit.
You can either fight or you can't.
You can either meditate or not.
You can either be strong or you aren't

compartmentalized descriptions can help a learning process as far as organizing thoughts go. But if not done in logical and easy to read order, it is going to wind up being fudge.

[sanjuro_ronin]

actually, I think that one can look at so-called "internal" in one of two ways: training and outcome / effect

if we use training medthodology (the path up the mountain) as the yardstick by which we measure the relative "internalicity" of a given system, of course we can't say that boxing or wrestling are "internal" in the same way that something like taiji or even some of the hakka systems (e.g. - SPM, Chow Ga) are; that is because the focus, priorities, cultural context, etc. are very different from one to the other;

however, if we look at outcome / effect (the "top" of the mountain), we can see that (good) wrestlers develop what essentially is the equivalent of "teng ging" (listening skill), "pang ging" (uprooting), "gan" (rootedness) etc. to the point of being essentially indistinguishable from a skilled taiji player; and boxers, in my estimation, tend to be pretty good at delivering "fa jing" (power issuance) when they strike using pretty much the same mechanics as a xing yi or taiji guy does; similarly, boxing footwork is an excellent example of "hin gung" or lightness skill (in the realistic sesnse, not in the "run up a wall" artifact)

so the question is - if someone trains a so-called "interal" system and is not able to produce the results that a boxer / wrestler produces, who is ultimately manifesting "internal" principles?

Well said and well put Christov.
Fact is that the whole internal/external thing are just terms, no more no less, just because certain MA don't use them doesn't mean they don't have the same skills.

[TenTigers]

I used the word,"internal" for lack of a better term. But, a specialized skill, nonetheless.
Those that have experience, know exactly what I am referring to.
As my teacher likes to say,"What have you seen? What have you felt? Who have you met and touched?"
most people who like to scoff, usually have never had any real experience with any of this.
Perhaps their teacher didn't have the skills, or just chose not to show or teach them.
Perhaps the student just didn't get it, or the teacher chose not to teach him. There are alot of reasons. But they usually fall into the above catagories.

[IronWeasel]

we've seen several people on this forum demonstrate very good IP, however, I am interested in if people have any info or experience with more internal versions, such as cinnabar palm.
I have heard of practitioners delivering light (not mere touching, mind you, but not hard strikes) strikes that left full imprints.
I have heard of people striking and leaving a bruise on the other side of the body-this one, although sounds fantastic, I can sort of say I experienced. I struck a training brother and he said he felt it go all the way through to the other side. It wasn't anything mysterious, just faht-ging, a nice, short, pulse/shock punch. BTW-he was wearing chest gear.
So I can understand if someone had developed that o a higher degree.
What is the difference with the training?
For me, the shock power came from a combination of things, definatley relaxation/looseness. I am sure the training with the rings has helped as well.
What are your thoughts?





I asked GM Chicoine about this sort of thing before I began the regular IP training. He said that bruising the other side of the body with a strike could be generated after Poison Hand training.

He did the Poison Hand training himself as did five senior students.

He said that the herbs required are nearly impossible to get.

[teetsao]

true "poison hand" has absolutely nothing to do with herbs or jow. that is some type of assassination technique where you put poison on your hands and hit someone with it.
he (chicoine) was referring to feeman ongs "poison hand soak". i am pretty sure dale still has it and sells it. ark wong also had a poison fingernail jow you cooked into a sand block and flicked your fingernails against. it turned the nails black and poisoned the nails,and in essence made the poison needles. it contained things like,"wild wolfs' teeth,tiger claw," and different poisonous animal parts. i have both formulas for history sake, but this is not true poison hand skill.

[IronWeasel]

true "poison hand" has absolutely nothing to do with herbs or jow. that is some type of assassination technique where you put poison on your hands and hit someone with it.
he (chicoine) was referring to feeman ongs "poison hand soak". i am pretty sure dale still has it and sells it. ark wong also had a poison fingernail jow you cooked into a sand block and flicked your fingernails against. it turned the nails black and poisoned the nails,and in essence made the poison needles. it contained things like,"wild wolfs' teeth,tiger claw," and different poisonous animal parts. i have both formulas for history sake, but this is not true poison hand skill.



Yes it was a "soak"...so to speak. The herbal "jow" component was applied as a hot (pan on the stove) soaking of the hand for a certain period of time.

The method of striking the bag was different than the regular IP conditioning method.

Your hand wasn't "poisonous" so to speak...or else your next sandwich would be your last!

[taai gihk yahn]

I don't make the distinction of external and internal in reference to martial arts practice.

I think it's just silly to look at the body as separate in that respect. There is really nothing but the whole body which includes mind. An integrated unit.
You can either fight or you can't.
You can either meditate or not.
You can either be strong or you aren't

compartmentalized descriptions can help a learning process as far as organizing thoughts go. But if not done in logical and easy to read order, it is going to wind up being fudge.

agreed - the "subtext" of my post was to in fact point out the fallacy of the division if, ultimately, you can train "internally" but not get "internal" results whereas someone who does not train "internaly" doesn't get "internal" results; it's not black and white, it's shades of gray, and therefore to classify one as opposed to the other creates an artificial contrivance;

of course, there are certain training approaches that "internal" styles use that impact the physiology in a specific manner - but they are not the only way to get the results that one sees in skilled combat, be it sport or otherwise;

but bear in mind that these "internal" training's are nothing more than a codification of what the human organism naturally moves towards on its own, and that one could spontaneously arrive at these trainings (I mean, someone had to come up with them at some point, right?) given the right circumstances (and practicing combat under pressure is, IMPO, one of those cricumstances where either you discover the "truth" of these skills, or you fail to become an effective fighter)

this is, of course, in relation to fighting, not any sort of health practice - that is another discussion entirely...

[TenTigers]

Poison Hand is also another term for dim-muk, dim-yuet, etc.
as far as the ability to cause bruises on the other side, Richard Barathy was known to be able to do this as well.
(then again, R.A.B. was pretty extraordinary himself)

[David Jamieson]

*snip*

but bear in mind that these "internal" training's are nothing more than a codification of what the human organism naturally moves towards on its own, and that one could spontaneously arrive at these trainings (I mean, someone had to come up with them at some point, right?) given the right circumstances (and practicing combat under pressure is, IMPO, one of those cricumstances where either you discover the "truth" of these skills, or you fail to become an effective fighter)

this is, of course, in relation to fighting, not any sort of health practice - that is another discussion entirely...

*hands over a decent cuban and a banana* :p

[MysteriousPower]

I used the word,"internal" for lack of a better term. But, a specialized skill, nonetheless.
Those that have experience, know exactly what I am referring to.
As my teacher likes to say,"What have you seen? What have you felt? Who have you met and touched?"
most people who like to scoff, usually have never had any real experience with any of this.
Perhaps their teacher didn't have the skills, or just chose not to show or teach them.
Perhaps the student just didn't get it, or the teacher chose not to teach him. There are alot of reasons. But they usually fall into the above catagories.

How many mms fights have your or your teacher fought and killed the other guy? Your teacher essentially showed you something that is untestable unless you get attacked on the street.

If you can't test it then how do you know you it works or that you can even set it up? Let me guess. Your teacher fought death matches in China when no one was looking.

You guys are worse than Kung Fu larpers because you make fun of them while not seeing that you are training garbage. Hand conditioning is normal but you crazies vaguely elude to having special abilities. "I hit my student through his chest protector and he felt it through to his other side." Yeah, ok. Spar with someone for real and hit him with IP. And then when called out on your bs you say you never claimed to be doing anything special. If you did not think it special you would have referred to it as hand conditioning instead of "internal" IP. Wake up already cause you are on drugs.

[Hardwork108]

actually, I think that one can look at so-called "internal" in one of two ways: training and outcome / effect

if we use training medthodology (the path up the mountain) as the yardstick by which we measure the relative "internalicity" of a given system, of course we can't say that boxing or wrestling are "internal" in the same way that something like taiji or even some of the hakka systems (e.g. - SPM, Chow Ga) are; that is because the focus, priorities, cultural context, etc. are very different from one to the other;

however, if we look at outcome / effect (the "top" of the mountain), we can see that (good) wrestlers develop what essentially is the equivalent of "teng ging" (listening skill), "pang ging" (uprooting), "gan" (rootedness) etc. to the point of being essentially indistinguishable from a skilled taiji player; and boxers, in my estimation, tend to be pretty good at delivering "fa jing" (power issuance) when they strike using pretty much the same mechanics as a xing yi or taiji guy does; similarly, boxing footwork is an excellent example of "hin gung" or lightness skill (in the realistic sesnse, not in the "run up a wall" artifact)

One of the distinctions of training the Internals is that your abilities will stay with you for a lot longer than the boxer. Health wise, one would also end up at a better place.

Also, there are Internal power/strength development methodologies use different approaches that classifies them as Internal, much more than the boxing path would. There are body unity concepts and training methodologies in Chow Gar that you will never ever see in boxing.

In fact most people who practice kung fu nowadays will not be familiar with them, and the evidence of that is in this very discussion and others that I have participated, in this forum and others. Some of these distinct methodologies can be found in some lineages of Dragon, Pak Mei and Hsing I, among others.

I am given to understand that Tai chi had a similar approach (to Chow Gar) in creating body unity (also strength and power), which somehow got lost along the way, or at least where most of the practitioners are concerned, nowadays.

So, to compare boxing efficiency to that of Internal TCMAs, is in some ways pushing it, as there are many, dare I say more occult, or closed door methodologies (and they do exist,no matter what the deniars say or think), who many that make these comparisons are not aware of.

Of course, I will agree that efficient external technique at some point can "overlap" with internal principles, but that does not make them the same.


so the question is - if someone trains a so-called "internal" system and is not able to produce the results that a boxer / wrestler produces, who is ultimately manifesting "internal" principles?

I would say, 9 times out of 10, none of them.

I mean if you reverse what you just said and say what if the Internal guy can make what he does work, while the boxer can't, would that ultimately mean that the Internalist was manifesting "external" principles?? Of course not!

One does not become a great boxer by NOT making his given external martial art work for him. The same would be true of any Internal martial arts system.

The subject area is very complex and each of us have knowledge that is based on different methodologies and approaches, even if some of them will undoubtedly overlap. So, I guess we will always see things that may not be considered by the other, meaning that I cannot expect everyone to "appreciate" what I am saying.

[Hardwork108]

If you did not think it special you would have referred to it as hand conditioning instead of "internal" IP. Wake up already cause you are on drugs.

There is a difference between hand conditioning, for example, basic Makiwara training, and Iron Palm training.......

[Hardwork108]

I don't make the distinction of external and internal in reference to martial arts practice.
Why doesn't that surprise me? LOL!


I think it's just silly to look at the body as separate in that respect.
It has nothing to do with looking at the "body as separate"!

However, that is a common mistake made by people who do not have any idea about genuine Internal TCMA methodologies!


There is really nothing but the whole body which includes mind. An integrated unit.
That sounds "intelligent" and "wise", but would also describe a good tennis player.

Let me give you a hint, it is not, the what, but the how and how much further you can take it. ;)


You can either fight or you can't.
You can either meditate or not.
You can either be strong or you aren't

You forgot, "you can either play tennis or you can't"....LOL


compartmentalized descriptions can help a learning process as far as organizing thoughts go. But if not done in logical and easy to read order, it is going to wind up being fudge.

CHRIST!!!!

It is not about "compartmentalized descriptions", it is about valid, but complex methodologies, that do have an "external" side to them. Read, "Yin and Yang"; read, "Equilibrium" or "Harmony"!!!

It is no good to come here and quote from Chinese Philosophical books, in order to come across as smart, if you cannot see those same philosophies within a TCMA context!!!!

Is it true that you "teach Kung Fu"?:eek:

[Hardwork108]

I used the word,"internal" for lack of a better term.

The "lack of a better term" is a reality, as far as the Internals are concerned, and you probably know that there is a good reason for that.;)



But, a specialized skill, nonetheless.
Those that have experience, know exactly what I am referring to.
As my teacher likes to say,"What have you seen? What have you felt? Who have you met and touched?"
most people who like to scoff, usually have never had any real experience with any of this.
Perhaps their teacher didn't have the skills, or just chose not to show or teach them.
Perhaps the student just didn't get it, or the teacher chose not to teach him. There are alot of reasons. But they usually fall into the above catagories.

Very true comments.

You might have also added, "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing".

It seems that many with some Internal TCMA experience, think that they know all there is to know, and use that assumption to make up their minds. The thought that there may be methodolgies out there that they have no idea about never crosses their minds, and is unacceptable in their individual realities. At least that is what it is looking like from where I am sitting.

I guess this is a human characteristic, but nevertheless IMHO I would suggest to everyone to recognize that they do not know everything about Internal TCMAs, and take my word for it that there is a lot out there that WILL surprise them one day, if they are lucky enough to cross paths with people in the know.

Anyway, good post and thanks. Your post stopped me from going totally nuts...LOL!

[teetsao]

mysterious power,
here it is in a nutshell. this thread was started to ask if anyone trains internal i.p.,which is another branch or side of i.p. in general. you are correct in saying that it originates as hand conditioning for battle feild scenario. this is why real i.p. only takes a year to obtain, to be able to do some serious damage. a real combat skill can be developed quickly to be used or would have been discarded. now then, comes the temple monks and the taoist monks,who at times fought but mainly kept to themselves,so they had centuries to expand/expound upon the basic principle of hand conditioning and add to it with their "down time" so to speak and make it into an art in and of itself. sub sets of iron palm and poison hand training. some done through "internal" or more esoteric devices.the cosmos palm is an example of internal,kinda meditation only i.p. i personally do not agree with it or see its validity but none the less it is there. some scholars love stuff like that and feel developing it this way is superior. i do not.so alot of time and effort on the part of the monks and recluses have gone into this and some great skills can be developed. jus because mma does not do it, does not mean it isnt legit,internal i.p. is also thought to lend itself to healing more so than external. this is why i subscribe to both schools and do both kinds of training.in internal we have physical exercises but it is mainly"intent" as i said before. i will let a little something out here (and yes i know it sounds weird and iw ill draw flak for it but we do it) we use visualizations. this technique is very old and athletes around the world and especially in russia use it to great benefits. i cant go into the specifics but they work. i have seen some weird sh&%t with my own eyes. not hocus pocus or parlor tricks either but real skills to a very high level,that if you did not see you would not beleive. this to me,along with proper body alignment when striking, is internal i.p.
my 2 cents and i am done on this thread. it was good though. i hope questions were answered.

[sanjuro_ronin]

See, I am kind of in the middle of this, I have seen some weird **** too, hands changing colour while doing IP Qigong for example, but I have also seen a few very good IP guys get their clocks cleaned even after hitting the other guy with their IP hand.

Fact is, all the "internals" in the world won't help you if you can't fight.

IP needs a delivery platform and not only that, it needs a skillful delivery platform.
I have seen too many guys "rest: on their IP and pay for it.

I don't bother with the Internal/external debate, I have seen enough internals in every MA, even those that don't directly "cultivate" it and I have seen far too many internal guys get their clocks cleaned because they didn't understand on crucial element of IMA:
You can't use those skills if you are knocked out.
:p

On the subject at hand though, tricks aside, and we all know that there is too much of that stuff in IP demos, the whole "exotic" face of IP training (poison hand, vibrating palm, hairy beaver palm, shaved beaver palm, etc) is quite simple this:
Can YOU do it in a fight?
If the answer is No, why bother?
If the answer is I don't know, then find out, FAST, before it is too late.
If the answer is yes, I ask you this, truthfully:
Against whom and under what conditions.

[TenTigers]

I don't do a great deal of hand conditioning. I hit the bag,work with the rings and do Sam Bo Ging. I am not an IP expert, nor do I even claim to have IP.
The experience I had was simply working on shock power, and the results surprised and intrigued me. This is why I put it out there, and to connect with like-minded individuals who may have experienced similar things.
Why practice specialized technique? Because it is intriguing. Which makes it an enjoyable pastime. It's fun.
Why practice Kung-Fu? Because at the end of the day, we enjoy it. We like how we feel when we do it. We like the fact that the strikes are "unconventional," the movements are unique, and it satisfies something within us on a very personal level.
and for some odd reason, this threatens people like MP..?
oh well....whaddayagonnado....?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Personally, I agree with you Rik, did I need to train IP?
No, not to toot my own horn, but when I was involved in a couple of studies about striking power I was one of the highest rated strikers, and I had the KO's in the ring and out of it to prove it.
So why did I do it?
I was curious, I felt it was part of "doing Kung fu" and thought it would be cool, LOL !
The fact that it worked made it even better.
There is much to be said about having something "unconventional" in your back pocket, as long as you can use it of course.
The problem is that for far too long, there has been too mch BS associated with IP and IMA, BS that gets exposed way too often.
Of course the problem is that PEOPLE make bogus claims that the training does not, but it's the training that carries the stigma.

[Dale Dugas]

I agree with Paul.

Way too much BS out there about real IP and IV.

not that Im going to be breaking bricks but having the ability to hit hard and not worry about breaking my hands on people is not bad if you seriously are thinking about using your material in the street.

[chusauli]

IMO, external IP training is just doing the reps - you may have general form, but its not clear what the other parts are doing as a chain.

Internal IP training is:

1) How am I breathing?
2) What is my intention - strike the bag, break through the beans/rice/shot/sand, break the table, aim at one leg of the table...
3) How did I drop into my foot?
4) How did I drop my knees?
5) Did I use my Kua?
6) Did I drop into my Yiu /Waist?
7) Did I tighten my Dan Tien/Core?
8) Did my ribs act as an accordion?
9) Did my shoulder drop?
10) Did my elbow drop?
11) Was my wrist relaxed?
12) What chains can I link? What chains can I de-link?
13) Which chains can I unify?
14) Which chains are weak?

Of course, more details, but you guys get the general idea.

[Dale Dugas]

Robert,

You are giving it all away brother.:eek::D:eek:;)

actually you have made great points about the total training that IP and IV entail. It is not about the hands but about the entire structure and how to learn to unify and utilize it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

LOL !
Anything ELSE you wanna add to that Robert?
:D

[Rolling Fists]

I used the word,"internal" for lack of a better term. But, a specialized skill, nonetheless.
Those that have experience, know exactly what I am referring to.
As my teacher likes to say,"What have you seen? What have you felt? Who have you met and touched?"
most people who like to scoff, usually have never had any real experience with any of this.
Perhaps their teacher didn't have the skills, or just chose not to show or teach them.
Perhaps the student just didn't get it, or the teacher chose not to teach him. There are alot of reasons. But they usually fall into the above catagories.

I've seen various IP practitioners but the one that stood out (good or bad) was a former SiFu of mine.

About 20 years ago, I used to train under SiFu William Chung (recently passed) who referred to himself as the GrandMaster of Hung Gar -- so I nicknamed him GMC (Grand Master Chung) He always boasted about his iron palm and made it a point to say that it is the "real" iron palm.

His IP hand wasn't pretty. The skin was very dry and almost flaky looking while the nails seemed non-existent as they blended in with the rest of the surrounding skin. Aside from that, there wasn't any noticeable deformations of the bones and it wasn't twice the size of his normal hand like the Chinese guy on youtube that smashes bricks.

I've seen him do a few demos in NYC Chinatown and it was pretty interesting. After some students punched through some pine boards, GMC would say "You don't need power or speed to break the boards" and then he broke the board in half as if it was done in slo-mo. It almost looked fake but it was definitely real.

One of my favorite things to watch was when he threw pine boards up and then snapped them in half mid-air with his phoenix eye fist. But the cherry on the cake was when he would effortlessly pierce all four fingers through a watermelon and then pick the whole thing up to show the crowd while his fingers were still deeply imbedded in the shell.

Now here's what I found very interesting; One night we (students) were all gathered in his living room just before training began (I called it the Iron Couch session). I happened to be sitting next to him on the couch and his right arm was extended as it was resting along the back and his IP hand was a few inches away from from by neck/back.

I don't recall what ticked him off at that moment as he raised his voice toward another student but all I could remember was the intense heat that emanated from his IP hand. My nape and upper back started to sweat and although I was feeling very uncomfortable, there was also a sense of awe.

As much as GMC boasted about his IP and told us stories of how he used it against others to smash patellas, collapse lungs or cause internal bleeding, he also showed regret since he said that he couldn't feel his newborn grandson when he held him. So, aside from the dry, flaking, fingernail lacking outside, there was also some damage to his nerve endings.

He trained his IP by hitting the medium directly and thrusting into it with his fingers. There was no doubt that his iron palm was effective but I wouldn't dismiss the fact that it may have also contributed to his deteriorating health conditions.

Hmm, I rambled a bit.

[Dale Dugas]

RF,

Thanks for sharing about your Shifu.

There are many roads, but they can all lead to the same destination.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I've seen various IP practitioners but the one that stood out (good or bad) was a former SiFu of mine.

About 20 years ago, I used to train under SiFu William Chung (recently passed) who referred to himself as the GrandMaster of Hung Gar -- so I nicknamed him GMC (Grand Master Chung) He always boasted about his iron palm and made it a point to say that it is the "real" iron palm.

His IP hand wasn't pretty. The skin was very dry and almost flaky looking while the nails seemed non-existent as they blended in with the rest of the surrounding skin. Aside from that, there wasn't any noticeable deformations of the bones and it wasn't twice the size of his normal hand like the Chinese guy on youtube that smashes bricks.

I've seen him do a few demos in NYC Chinatown and it was pretty interesting. After some students punched through some pine boards, GMC would say "You don't need power or speed to break the boards" and then he broke the board in half as if it was done in slo-mo. It almost looked fake but it was definitely real.

One of my favorite things to watch was when he threw pine boards up and then snapped them in half mid-air with his phoenix eye fist. But the cherry on the cake was when he would effortlessly pierce all four fingers through a watermelon and then pick the whole thing up to show the crowd while his fingers were still deeply imbedded in the shell.

Now here's what I found very interesting; One night we (students) were all gathered in his living room just before training began (I called it the Iron Couch session). I happened to be sitting next to him on the couch and his right arm was extended as it was resting along the back and his IP hand was a few inches away from from by neck/back.

I don't recall what ticked him off at that moment as he raised his voice toward another student but all I could remember was the intense heat that emanated from his IP hand. My nape and upper back started to sweat and although I was feeling very uncomfortable, there was also a sense of awe.

As much as GMC boasted about his IP and told us stories of how he used it against others to smash patellas, collapse lungs or cause internal bleeding, he also showed regret since he said that he couldn't feel his newborn grandson when he held him. So, aside from the dry, flaking, fingernail lacking outside, there was also some damage to his nerve endings.

He trained his IP by hitting the medium directly and thrusting into it with his fingers. There was no doubt that his iron palm was effective but I wouldn't dismiss the fact that it may have also contributed to his deteriorating health conditions.

Hmm, I rambled a bit.

I don't normally mentioned this but I have heard stories about Master Chung and his IP from John Springer and the stories struck me in a profound way.
Here was a man that truly suffered for his art.
I recall being told that he tended to tell his students NOT to take up IP in his later years, was that correct?
RIP GM Chung.

[chusauli]

LOL !
Anything ELSE you wanna add to that Robert?
:D


Ooops! Sorry Dale, Sorry Paul - all that stuff was just some nonsense I made up. Please disregard it and delete my post. LOL!:D

There's more, but I don't wanna step on any toes here! :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ooops! Sorry Dale, Sorry Paul - all that stuff was just some nonsense I made up. Please disregard it and delete my post. LOL!:D

There's more, but I don't wanna step on any toes here! :)

*recalls russian redheaded stripper ninjas*

[Dale Dugas]

Ooops! Sorry Dale, Sorry Paul - all that stuff was just some nonsense I made up. Please disregard it and delete my post. LOL!:D

There's more, but I don't wanna step on any toes here! :)

Robert,

there is such a plethora of crap out there that is put forth by pseudo masters that it is so refreshing to know that you have understanding of the concepts.

But then I would think you and certain others would have these concepts as you have really trained them and not just tried to google them like so many others.

[Rolling Fists]

I don't normally mentioned this but I have heard stories about Master Chung and his IP from John Springer and the stories struck me in a profound way.
Here was a man that truly suffered for his art.
I recall being told that he tended to tell his students NOT to take up IP in his later years, was that correct?
RIP GM Chung.

He *might* have tried to dissuade us from learning IP but I can't be 100% on that. He did complain about lacking feelings in his hand but he also boasted about its effectiveness on a regular basis. GMC was not the humble type of teacher but he was very unique. Equally as impressive as his IP were his bridge hands. His upper body was solid and you could pretty much hang off his extended arms.

I joined his school back in 1990 and was there for about 1.5 - 2 years. Joining was by referral or from his son Philip who used to teach at Middlesex County College and scouted any potential new students.

When joining GMC's school, you were given 2 options:
1. Immediately become a disciple in his Hung Gar system
2. Learn a 6 month(?) intense iron palm program for the purpose of avenging a family member's death.

I don't know if anybody took option #2.

[Rolling Fists]

RF,

Thanks for sharing about your Shifu.

There are many roads, but they can all lead to the same destination.

You're welcome Dale. I agree that many roads can lead to the same destination but I also believe that the old, longer routes are safer than the newer shortcuts that are becoming increasingly popular today.

[Dale Dugas]

RF,

Very true many of the youth today want to have things now versus forging the body, the mind and the spirit on the slow and steady method of progress.

Thanks for sharing.

I never got to met GMC, and I regret it.

Be well,

Dale

[TenTigers]

a former Sifu who met Bill Cheung described his hand as looking like a glazed donut! I couldn't imagine what that looked like, until I met a gentleman in the park, who was well known for his IP. Yep-it looked exactly like a glazed donut! His hands were very meaty, thick, and the skin was shiny and crackly in places.
It looked delicious. I could really go for one and a nice cuppa joe!





..it's kinda weird the way my mind starts to wander sometimes...


mmmmm...donuts...

[sanjuro_ronin]

a former Sifu who met Bill Cheung described his hand as looking like a glazed donut! I couldn't imagine what that looked like, until I met a gentleman in the park, who was well known for his IP. Yep-it looked exactly like a glazed donut! His hands were very meaty, thick, and the skin was shiny and crackly in places.
It looked delicious. I could really go for one and a nice cuppa joe!





..it's kinda weird the way my mind starts to wander sometimes...


mmmmm...donuts...

Hmmm,interesting, if not disturbing.

I think that has to do with the type of alcohol used in their Jow and perhaps other "unmentionable" things used in some IP Jow's.
And also NOT taking care of one's hands with a nice moisturizer.

[Rolling Fists]

a former Sifu who met Bill Cheung described his hand as looking like a glazed donut! I couldn't imagine what that looked like, until I met a gentleman in the park, who was well known for his IP. Yep-it looked exactly like a glazed donut! His hands were very meaty, thick, and the skin was shiny and crackly in places.
It looked delicious. I could really go for one and a nice cuppa joe!





..it's kinda weird the way my mind starts to wander sometimes...


mmmmm...donuts...

Interesting analogy description

So, Iron Glazed Donut Palm > Iron Palm

[Rolling Fists]

Hmmm,interesting, if not disturbing.

I think that has to do with the type of alcohol used in their Jow and perhaps other "unmentionable" things used in some IP Jow's.
And also NOT taking care of one's hands with a nice moisturizer.

I would imagine that IGDP (iron glazed donut palm) would be the result of thrusting your fingers/hand directly into whatever hard, heated medium was used. The continuous impact and abrasiveness of such training also wore away his fingernails, so I would assume that it affected the skin as well.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I would imagine that IGDP (iron glazed donut palm) would be the result of thrusting your fingers/hand directly into whatever hard, heated medium was used. The continuous impact and abrasiveness of such training also wore away his fingernails, so I would assume that it affected the skin as well.

I am sure that wouldn't help :D

[IronWeasel]

*recalls russian redheaded stripper ninjas*




I'm listening...

[chusauli]

*recalls russian redheaded stripper ninjas*

Paul,

You still owe me those Russian Redhead stripper ninjas...I'm waiting!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Paul,

You still owe me those Russian Redhead stripper ninjas...I'm waiting!

As soon as they are done their limbering exercises and hot yoga.
:D

[David Jamieson]

the flaky hands, redness and swelling is associated with the direct method. (the thrusting into the medium et al)

hands of guys who do the indirect method do not look like this but it certainly isn't any different usage wise.

I think direct method takes you there quicker. It is a shorter path, but you pay for it more.

[chusauli]

a former Sifu who met Bill Cheung described his hand as looking like a glazed donut! I couldn't imagine what that looked like, until I met a gentleman in the park, who was well known for his IP. Yep-it looked exactly like a glazed donut! His hands were very meaty, thick, and the skin was shiny and crackly in places.
It looked delicious. I could really go for one and a nice cuppa joe!





..it's kinda weird the way my mind starts to wander sometimes...


mmmmm...donuts...


Forget about the donuts - they're bad for your health.

Dale and others, simply add 3- 9 qian of Er Cha to your IP Rx, ad it will prevent your skin from looking like a crusty glazed donut. This is a secret.

If you have a lot of swelling after IP practice - 3-6 qian of Sheng Ban Xia and Sheng Tian Nan Xing in the IP Rx should help tremendously. Be sure to wash your hands of the Jow before eating, or it can poison you. Many will ask if you can used the cooked versions of Ban Xia and Tian Nan Xing - yes, you may if you can't get the raw ones.

Do not use vinegar for IP Rx. That is a poor substitute for poor villagers who can't afford good booze. If you can still get Everclear, do a 50/50 mix with Spring Water.

[Dale Dugas]

you mean the hot Russian Systema groupies???

[sanjuro_ronin]

Forget about the donuts - they're bad for your health.

Dale and others, simply add 3- 9 qian of Er Cha to your IP Rx, ad it will prevent your skin from looking like a crusty glazed donut. This is a secret.

If you have a lot of swelling after IP practice - 3-6 qian of Sheng Ban Xia and Sheng Tian Nan Xing in the IP Rx should help tremendously. Be sure to wash your hands of the Jow before eating, or it can poison you. Many will ask if you can used the cooked versions of Ban Xia and Tian Nan Xing - yes, you may if you can't get the raw ones.

Do not use vinegar for IP Rx. That is a poor substitute for poor villagers who can't afford good booze. If you can still get Everclear, do a 50/50 mix with Spring Water.

Indeed.
The first year of IP my hand was noticibly swollen, even strangers noticed it.
When I went to a more powerful Jow, it went away and my hand is "normal".

[sanjuro_ronin]

One ninja away !!
http://www.3wishes.com/images/ninjastar-d.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

The other is almost ready !
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3211/3063763576_7b387bfd0f_m.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://mydisguises.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/sexy-teenage-mutant-ninja-turtles-costume-1.jpg

[TenTigers]

slightly off/on topic..
ok, so I was buying herbs for jow at Lin's Sister-about 20 yrs back.
The doctor knew I did Kung-Fu, and asked if I do sam-sing. I said yes, and he gave me a bag of powdered herbs to rub on before training-rub the powder into the arms, (not to mix with wine to make a jow) and it will prevent pain from striking-like an anesthetic of sorts. Cool.
So when I asked him what it was, he started to tell me, and the lady from the back started yelling at him, so he says.
"it's ..uh, Kung-Fu powder." and smiled, nodding his head.
great..."Kung-Fu Powder"
Anyway, anyone have any idea what herbs he might have used for something like this? It worked pretty well, and was helpful for beginners.
I'd go back to Lin's sister, but I'd feel like a jerk going in there and asking for, "Kung-Fu Powder.!":o

[taai gihk yahn]

slightly off/on topic..
ok, so I was buying herbs for jow at Lin's Sister-about 20 yrs back.
The doctor knew I did Kung-Fu, and asked if I do sam-sing. I said yes, and he gave me a bag of powdered herbs to rub on before training-rub the powder into the arms, (not to mix with wine to make a jow) and it will prevent pain from striking-like an anesthetic of sorts. Cool.
So when I asked him what it was, he started to tell me, and the lady from the back started yelling at him, so he says.
"it's ..uh, Kung-Fu powder." and smiled, nodding his head.
great..."Kung-Fu Powder"
Anyway, anyone have any idea what herbs he might have used for something like this? It worked pretty well, and was helpful for beginners.
I'd go back to Lin's sister, but I'd feel like a jerk going in there and asking for, "Kung-Fu Powder.!":o

well, there may be a reason for his non-disclosure; the following story may give some idea why:
also about 20 yrs ago (is that when EVERYTHING happened?) I was in Kahm Daht on Mott st. to fill a jow formula that CTS had given me; we used Kahn Daht because the then owner, Grace Ho, was a member of the same herbalists Assn as CTS, and he like her for some reason; the good thing about Grace was she spoke English very well, so you could actualy get answers to some of your questions...
anyway, i gave her the formula and she starts reading through it until she comes to some ingredient (I don't remember what it was), and she looks at me and says in a a somewhat frantic voice, "this ingredient is ILLEGAL!"; I was like, "so?" (figuring she would just substitute something else), and she's like, "It's going to take time to get it!"
so maybe that is why the other guy wasn't at liberty to divulge the contents of Kung Fu powder? who knows...

[Hardwork108]

well, there may be a reason for his non-disclosure; the following story may give some idea why:
also about 20 yrs ago (is that when EVERYTHING happened?) I was in Kahm Daht on Mott st. to fill a jow formula that CTS had given me; we used Kahn Daht because the then owner, Grace Ho, was a member of the same herbalists Assn as CTS, and he like her for some reason; the good thing about Grace was she spoke English very well, so you could actualy get answers to some of your questions...
anyway, i gave her the formula and she starts reading through it until she comes to some ingredient (I don't remember what it was), and she looks at me and says in a a somewhat frantic voice, "this ingredient is ILLEGAL!"; I was like, "so?" (figuring she would just substitute something else), and she's like, "It's going to take time to get it!"
so maybe that is why the other guy wasn't at liberty to divulge the contents of Kung Fu powder? who knows...

I think I know what the illegal ingredient was.....;)

[chusauli]

Sheng Ban Xia, Shen Chuan Wu, Sheng Tian Nan Xing, Sheng Cao Wu are highly toxic and generally illegal. They would be more difficult to get. So would She Xiang, and Hu Gu - all endangered species. Wu Ling Zhi also not allowed in the country because its Flying Squirrel Feces.

In a certain Southern tradition, they use Opium in the Jow...now that's illegal.

When you know Chinese Medicine, these things are no big deal, you have work arounds with substitutions. Herbs, over the centuries, were always subject to availability and seasonality.

The close guarded nature of Dit Da Jow and IP medicines is often a big joke. Often, I have seen the Rx's and heard they were from secrets and famous masters. For example, Ku Yu Cheung's Iron Palm Rx must be a big secret, after all, he was able to kill a horse with a slap. But when you broke it down, its pretty much standard stuff. Seeing Wang Zi Ping's and Hai Deng's Rx's were also no great secret either. When I see people have a little recipe for Jow, they think they've got the holy grail! :rolleyes:

[TenTigers]

In a certain Southern tradition, they use Opium in the Jow...now that's illegal.

yeah, as well as other ingredients that most herbalists will not fill.
(although I have an herbalist who will still give me deer musk)

what herbs have the same functions and can be substituted for:
opium-(I mean, besides heroin ;-)
snake-what kind of snake? Can I use a common garter snake?
bear claw, palm, bile, liver
deer musk

I will be hunting bear this coming season. Hopefully, I can get some ingredients for jow...

[Dale Dugas]

the snake that is used in jow is called the Bai Hua She, White Flower Snake which is also called Wu Bu She, five step snake as legend has it once bitten you would walk five steps and be dead.

Its a pit viper.

Copperheads, and rattlesnakes share the same genus if Im not mistaken.

[PlumDragon]

(although I have an herbalist who will still give me deer musk)Musk is still available. Its just really expensive and the quality isnt good.



opium-(I mean, besides heroin ;-)Yan Hu Suo Shares a relation to opium at the family/subfamily level.


snake-what kind of snake? Can I use a common garter snake?Garter snakes arent the best but you could use a rat snake if you want. It doesnt have to be venomous but the potency comes down a tad when its not. So just add a little more.

Bai Hua She used to refer to the Pit Viper, but it doesnt really anymore. When I buy Bai Hua She, what I usually get is Sea Krait (Bungarus) and when I buy Qi She, what I usually get is true Viper (Viperidae). For example, the snake that you buy at Kamwo is not usually Viper. But, having been an amateur herpetologist in College, I know how to identify them and assure you is generally Sea Krait. Without getting into details about scale count, etc, if your snake is long and thin and has a thinner head, youve got a Sea Krait, which are debatedlty just *slightly* stronger than the Vipers any way. If your snake is short and stubby with a very triangular head, you have Viper.

Fact is, *anything* in the Viperidae family/subfamily (not to be confused with Viperinae) are very strong snakes that will work very well, as is anything in the Elapidae family/subfamily. Then, anything in the Colubridae family/subfamily will also provide mostly a very good item but they arent generally going to be as strong as the other families of snakes. There are lots of choices in these 3 groups, I cant list them out it would take too long. You can look up those names on Wikipedia or something I would imagine.



deer muskLots of people use larger amounts of Bing Pian, or Ding Xiang with something cooling like Shi Gao, etc...