Manup Standup fights

[Phil Redmond]

There's still time if any people want to test what they do.

[Phil Redmond]

I hope some more Wing Chun people will compete since we have such a bad rep for fighting.

[JPinAZ]

Thanks Phil!
This is the first I heard of this latest one. Are these posted earlier in advance somewhere so people from out of state can have time to plan for the trip?

[Phil Redmond]

Thanks Phil!
This is the first I heard of this latest one. Are these posted earlier in advance somewhere so people from out of state can have time to plan for the trip?
Sorry for posting this so close to the event. I will post the next one way in advance.

[Wayfaring]

What are chi sau / sticky hands rules if I may ask?

[Lee Chiang Po]

Chi Sao? Sticky hands? I thought this was a fight compitition.

[Phil Redmond]

Chi Sao? Sticky hands? I thought this was a fight compitition.

ManupStandup Traditional Wuhu Fighting League
Free fighting rules



MUSU RULES:

All prospective fighters must submit the following information:
NAME
SCHOOL/STYLE
AGE
WEIGHT
HEIGHT
YRS. EXPERIENCE

and send via email to brotherlaoqiang@yahoo.com as soon as possible for consideration.

As a qualifier, all fighters will be required to perform a form/set from their style. Additionally, the fight judges will also score on authentic usage of the fighter's particular style in each round.

The center referee and the referee general have the authority to DQ any fighter at any time.
The center referee, the referee general, the fight doctor and EMT staff have the authority to stop the fight at anytime.


Lightweight - Over 130 lbs or 58.967 kgs to 135 lbs or 61.235 kgs
Middleweight – Over 160 lbs or 72.575 kgs to 168 lbs or 76.204 kgs
Heavyweight – Over 200 lbs or 90.719 kgs to unlimited


FREE FIGHTING:

To submit due to strikes or a lock a fighter must rapidly tap his open hand against any solid surface in view of the referee.

Corners:
Fighters will be designated as either blue or yellow by a colored sash. Each fighter is allowed 2 corner men (1st and assistant). If at any time either corner man steps onto the Lei Tai without express permission from the center referee or referee general their fighter will instantly be DQ.

Conduct: Fighters and corner men are expected to be professional, calm and sportsmanlike at all times. Fighters can receive fouls or become DQ anytime they, their corner men or anyone affiliated with them deviates from these expectations. The judges, center referee, referee general, promoters, the competing fighter and everyone in attendance are to be respected at all times. Fighters, corner men, coaches and teammates are to exemplify Wu De/Mo Duk (martial virtue) at all times.

Grappling: Grappling, throwing and joint locking are allowed. A 10 second count will be initiated once fighters begin grappling on their feet. If the fighters do not separate and neither fighter falls at the end of the count they will be separated and the round will continue. If both fighters fall to the floor and continue grappling a new 10 count will begin. (Fighters grapple for 4 seconds before Yellow throws Blue to the ground. Yellow follows Blue to the floor to pursue a lock. Referee begins new 10 count.) Joint locks may not be applied to a standing opponent. Submissions may occur from the floor through the execution of joint lock techniques, chokes (locking the fingers around the throat is not allowed) or successive strikes. The same legal striking areas and techniques apply to the floor. Fighters will be stood-up if there is no submission in 10 seconds.

SPARRING EQUIPMENT:
1. Mandatory safety equipment : Headgear (optional) mouthpiece , groin cup, shine guard (optional) footgear (optional) Mix martial arts gloves or open finger gloves 12 oz boxing gloves or optional. Note all gloves must weight 12 oz.
2. Scoring areas: Face, chest, stomach, thigh, and lower leg. No Knockouts! Beginners only side of the face is allow striking for scoring area. (No front of face.)
3. No contact area: front of face, spine, back of head, knees, groin, and neck. Contact to the front of face is only allowed in the intermediate and advanced sparring division.
4. Use of elbows and knees only to the front of the body, no joint locks, no choking, no head butt, no body slams.
5. Takedowns are allowed only in intermediate and advanced free fighting division.

[Phil Redmond]

What are chi sau / sticky hands rules if I may ask?
http://www.youtube.com/user/ManupStandup#p/u/16/yIk7OX07cFI

ManupStandup Traditional Wushu Fighting League
Free style Push Hand Competition Rules
(No Weight Class)

1. The free style push hands division is for men.
2. Competitors can wear a t-shirt, long pants and training shoes. No jewelry or watchers are allowed to wear doing a push hand match.
3. No sweeps, takedowns, joint locks or striking are allowed in beginner push hand division.
4. Intermediate & advanced push hands division sweeps and takedowns are allowed. No joint locks, striking, or body slams are not allowed.
5. Each match will be timed for three minutes. One minute rest before between rounds, with total 2 rounds.
6. Push Hands competitors will begin facing off with right hand and foot forward, right hand making contact to utilize sticking and listening energy. The Push hands judge will say begin and the match will initiate. 7. Winner will be determined by the best usage of push hands principles and how well they utilize the techniques of sticking, neutralizing, sinking, rooting and uprooting skills. Maintaining ward off strength and use of proper aligned strength when retreating to neutralize an attack or when issuing a counterattack.
7. 8. PENALTIES AND STOPPAGES: You can get Penalized or disqualified for Pushing or shoving with brute force! If you‘re caught using brute force with no technique, the ref can issue a warning. Keep getting caught not utilizing the push hand principles you’ll be Penalized or disqualified altogether from the match!

[Phil Redmond]

Chi Sao? Sticky hands? I thought this was a fight compitition.

It's a little more than Chi Sao. ;)
http://www.youtube.com/user/ManupStandup#p/a

[MysteriousPower]

This sounds a little crazy. How are the judges going to judge all styles? Do the judges train in every kung Fu style?





ManupStandup Traditional Wuhu Fighting League
Free fighting rules



MUSU RULES:

All prospective fighters must submit the following information:
NAME
SCHOOL/STYLE
AGE
WEIGHT
HEIGHT
YRS. EXPERIENCE

and send via email to brotherlaoqiang@yahoo.com as soon as possible for consideration.

As a qualifier, all fighters will be required to perform a form/set from their style. Additionally, the fight judges will also score on authentic usage of the fighter's particular style in each round.

The center referee and the referee general have the authority to DQ any fighter at any time.
The center referee, the referee general, the fight doctor and EMT staff have the authority to stop the fight at anytime.


Lightweight - Over 130 lbs or 58.967 kgs to 135 lbs or 61.235 kgs
Middleweight – Over 160 lbs or 72.575 kgs to 168 lbs or 76.204 kgs
Heavyweight – Over 200 lbs or 90.719 kgs to unlimited


FREE FIGHTING:

To submit due to strikes or a lock a fighter must rapidly tap his open hand against any solid surface in view of the referee.

Corners:
Fighters will be designated as either blue or yellow by a colored sash. Each fighter is allowed 2 corner men (1st and assistant). If at any time either corner man steps onto the Lei Tai without express permission from the center referee or referee general their fighter will instantly be DQ.

Conduct: Fighters and corner men are expected to be professional, calm and sportsmanlike at all times. Fighters can receive fouls or become DQ anytime they, their corner men or anyone affiliated with them deviates from these expectations. The judges, center referee, referee general, promoters, the competing fighter and everyone in attendance are to be respected at all times. Fighters, corner men, coaches and teammates are to exemplify Wu De/Mo Duk (martial virtue) at all times.

Grappling: Grappling, throwing and joint locking are allowed. A 10 second count will be initiated once fighters begin grappling on their feet. If the fighters do not separate and neither fighter falls at the end of the count they will be separated and the round will continue. If both fighters fall to the floor and continue grappling a new 10 count will begin. (Fighters grapple for 4 seconds before Yellow throws Blue to the ground. Yellow follows Blue to the floor to pursue a lock. Referee begins new 10 count.) Joint locks may not be applied to a standing opponent. Submissions may occur from the floor through the execution of joint lock techniques, chokes (locking the fingers around the throat is not allowed) or successive strikes. The same legal striking areas and techniques apply to the floor. Fighters will be stood-up if there is no submission in 10 seconds.

SPARRING EQUIPMENT:
1. Mandatory safety equipment : Headgear (optional) mouthpiece , groin cup, shine guard (optional) footgear (optional) Mix martial arts gloves or open finger gloves 12 oz boxing gloves or optional. Note all gloves must weight 12 oz.
2. Scoring areas: Face, chest, stomach, thigh, and lower leg. No Knockouts! Beginners only side of the face is allow striking for scoring area. (No front of face.)
3. No contact area: front of face, spine, back of head, knees, groin, and neck. Contact to the front of face is only allowed in the intermediate and advanced sparring division.
4. Use of elbows and knees only to the front of the body, no joint locks, no choking, no head butt, no body slams.
5. Takedowns are allowed only in intermediate and advanced free fighting division.

[Phil Redmond]

This sounds a little crazy. How are the judges going to judge all styles? Do the judges train in every kung Fu style?
There are Si-Fus from many different styles involved. And even if there weren't a clean technique is obvious regardless of what style you do.

[Frost]

There are Si-Fus from many different styles involved. And even if there weren't a clean technique is obvious regardless of what style you do.

just a question, since they are not really allowing grappling, why do they use 4oz gloves, i would have thought boxing gloves would have made more sense?

[Phil Redmond]

they are allowing some grappling. You have 10 seconds to pull something off on the ground.

[t_niehoff]

they are allowing some grappling. You have 10 seconds to pull something off on the ground.

I have an idea -- why don't they only allow 10 seconds for free-movement stand up too! That will allow for "some striking." ;)

[HumbleWCGuy]

I have an idea -- why don't they only allow 10 seconds for free-movement stand up too! That will allow for "some striking." ;)

Could your lack of upright fighting ability be any more transparent? Don’t you think that it is time to give your bitterness towards WC a rest and just accept the fact that you are responsible for your lack of success in upright fighting?

Besides, 10 seconds is more than adequate time for you to blowout your shoulder and retire from competition.

[HumbleWCGuy]

just a question, since they are not really allowing grappling, why do they use 4oz gloves, i would have thought boxing gloves would have made more sense?

Did you study WC for a period of time? You can do WC with boxing gloves, but it has to be modified. With mma gloves it allows the techniques to be expressed and used more similarly to the way that they are initially taught. The same is true for other arts, especially TCMA.

[Phil Redmond]

. . . You can do WC with boxing gloves, but it has to be modified. With mma gloves it allows the techniques to be expressed and used more similarly to they way that they are initially taught. The same is true for other arts, especially TCMA.
Exactly, :D

[Phil Redmond]

I have an idea -- why don't they only allow 10 seconds for free-movement stand up too! That will allow for "some striking." ;)

IMO, it's probably because sadly, most TMAs aren't very familiar with modern ground fighting. Those that are should be able to pull something off on someone unfamiliar to grappling in 10 seconds. I didn't make the rule but I've heard from the promoters that they want people to be able to use their arts against resisting opponents while standing.
There are grappling only events, and there is K1 with no grappling. So this is an event with "limited" grappling.
Hopefully, these TMAs will start learning to defend on the ground and maybe more time will be allowed on the ground.
My take is that since most TMAs don't fight at all that these events are at least a start for people getting used to full contact. (Excuse typos, just getting familiar with the iphone 4 keyboard)

[t_niehoff]

IMO, it's probably because sadly, most TMAs aren't very familiar with modern ground fighting. Those that are should be able to pull something off on someone unfamiliar to grappling in 10 seconds. I didn't make the rule but I've heard from the promoters that they want people to be able to use their arts against resisting opponents while standing.


No one is going to be able to pull any sub off in 10 seconds of ground time with a genuinely resisting opponent (unless they get very lucky).

And the rules also limit "stand up" grappling (clinch) to 10 seconds. This isn't consistent with "the promoters that they want people to be able to use their arts against resisting opponents while standing."

I think what the promoters really want is to keep the action mainly free-movement striking (kickboxing).



There are grappling only events, and there is K1 with no grappling. So this is an event with "limited" grappling.


So limited as to make it inconsequential.



Hopefully, these TMAs will start learning to defend on the ground and maybe more time will be allowed on the ground.
My take is that since most TMAs don't fight at all that these events are at least a start for people getting used to full contact. (Excuse typos, just getting familiar with the iphone 4 keyboard)

OK.

[HumbleWCGuy]

So limited as to make it inconsequential.




Have someone hit a big throw on you and then land on top. Then, ask yourself if it was inconsequential. San Da but now it is cool to land on them and suck some wind out

[t_niehoff]

Have someone hit a big throw on you and then land on top. Then, ask yourself if it was inconsequential. San Da but now it is cool to land on them and suck some wind out

Maybe you can point me to some videos of where that really made much of a difference in a fight? Because if it really doesn't make much of a difference, then it would be hard to call it consequential (since it had no significant consequences), wouldn't it?

[HumbleWCGuy]

Maybe you can point me to some videos of where that really made much of a difference in a fight? Because if it really doesn't make much of a difference, then it would be hard to call it consequential (since it had no significant consequences), wouldn't it?

Stop living vicariously and just experience it for yourself.

[t_niehoff]

Stop living vicariously and just experience it for yourself.

As I train MMA, I get taken down, thrown, etc. all the time. So I do experience it -- regularly. That's why I don't agree with you.

[HumbleWCGuy]

As I train MMA, I get taken down, thrown, etc. all the time. So I do experience it -- regularly. That's why I don't agree with you.

That's my point. You get gentlemanly treatment in the training hall and you think that the ring is the same way.

[t_niehoff]

That's my point. You get gentlemanly treatment in the training hall and you think that the ring is the same way.

Show me the videos where these throws were consequential. You can't. They are no more consequential in the ring than the gym.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDB8wk6P9g8

[Frost]

Did you study WC for a period of time? You can do WC with boxing gloves, but it has to be modified. With mma gloves it allows the techniques to be expressed and used more similarly to the way that they are initially taught. The same is true for other arts, especially TCMA.

two points, firstly not a wing chun comp its open to all styles, and secondly check the actual fights out and tell me they are using open hand techniques or any techniques that need an open gloves

[t_niehoff]

Did you study WC for a period of time?

BTW, this is really disingenuous when there is absolutely no evidence that YOU have ever trained WCK.

[Frost]

they are allowing some grappling. You have 10 seconds to pull something off on the ground.

they are allowing no time for any grappling to happen, but probably just enough time for an injury to happen as someone trys something stupid, either give them enough time to grappl both standing and on the ground or just ban it its not rocket science if you dont want it to happen just ban it from the rules

[Phil Redmond]

Man up stand up Traditional Wushu free fighting & Push hands Tournament:
8/28/10
sat -10AM to 5pm
competitor Fee $50
Spectators Fee $ 15
THE CHILDREN'S AID SOCIETY
DUNLEVY MILBANK CENTER
14-32 WEST 118TH STREET
NEW YORK N. Y. 1002

DIRECTIONS: Number 6 local train to 116th street , manhattan, n y walk to 118th street . it is between fifth avenue and lenox avenue
For more information:
contact Tournament Director
Sifu Novell Bell

Pre -Registration Dead Line Fee $40 (by 8/20/10) $60 for both fighting and push hands. After dead line date: At the Door $50 first event/ $70 .00 for both fighting & push hands.(646) 895- 9262

[HumbleWCGuy]

BTW, this is really disingenuous when there is absolutely no evidence that YOU have ever trained WCK.

Other than the fact that I actually know what I am talking about whereas, you clearly do not.

[Phil Redmond]

they are allowing no time for any grappling to happen, but probably just enough time for an injury to happen as someone trys something stupid, either give them enough time to grappl both standing and on the ground or just ban it its not rocket science if you dont want it to happen just ban it from the rules
When I fought in the Fu Jow Pai full contact events in the 80's. You were allowed only 3 consecutive elbows, and knees. You could also do three stikes to an opponent on the ground.
So counting 1001, 1002, 1003, . . . . 1010, is not too bad. I'm not a grappler and I think grappling is important but many people get bored seeing two guys fighting on the ground. I remember when UFC people could stay in the ground forever. Didn't the UFC change that rule? I'm thinking it's because people would rather see a good knockout than two guys "grappling" for long periods. No offense to grapplers intended. :)

[HumbleWCGuy]

two points, firstly not a wing chun comp its open to all styles, and secondly check the actual fights out and tell me they are using open hand techniques or any techniques that need an open gloves

I see your point. It's not really not so much to do with people wanting to use karate chops and the like. The issues is the defense/blocking. Most TCMA systems (especially Southern) have blocking strategies and techniques similar to WC so for them to enter a competition with boxing gloves, they have to be taught to"Kickbox." What this usually boils down to is adjusting the defense to account for an inflexible wrist and inability to open the palms. Stance can be an issue but not necessarily.

One of the staples of TCMA is the pak sao. With gloves and wraps/tape, some of the ways that the pak can be used are lost. Also, it becomes harder to clear and to use lops and so on. The lop is used in a lot of systems outside of TCMA. It is pretty common in TKD for example.

I wasn't in the room when these decisions were made, but I would guess that in order to get better turn out on short notice, the less modification required the better. Plus traditionalist guys are always making a stink about how the gloves hinder their ability to properly express their techniques.

[t_niehoff]

Other than the fact that I actually know what I am talking about whereas, you clearly do not.

It must really be hell to know you're right and not be able to find any evidence to support your view, and to know that all the evidence we do have (like all the "ring fights" you believe are so different than what happens in the gym) refutes your view.

[HumbleWCGuy]

It must really be hell to know you're right and not be able to find any evidence to support your view, and to know that all the evidence we do have (like all the "ring fights" you believe are so different than what happens in the gym) refutes your view.

What you need to do is to go into the gym and kickbox three 2 minute rounds where the only acceptable result is a referee stoppage, Knock Out, or decision. Then, you will understand that their is a world of difference between YOUR normal gym sparring where you ask your partner to stop every time it looks to get too physical for you. The fact that you don't understand how punishment to your body causes you to lose strikes in a round is evidence that you haven't even had a serious sparring match before.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Hey T, when you have bone bruises on your skull (under the normal bruises) after sparring and experienced multiple flash knockouts during your gym sparring, I will concede.

Do you get cut and have to continue after a few minutes of direct pressure and ice or do you just call it a night?

[t_niehoff]

Humble, go train at a good MMA school -- you haven't a clue as to how they train.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Humble, go train at a good MMA school -- you haven't a clue as to how they train.

Whatever you have to tell yourself to maintain your delusions.

Here again, I have specific things that I can talk about that are clearly out of your realm of experience because you are a LARPER. You get hit hard and you go and sit down and that's who you are.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_ekugPKqFw

[Frost]

When I fought in the Fu Jow Pai full contact events in the 80's. You were allowed only 3 consecutive elbows, and knees. You could also do three stikes to an opponent on the ground.
So counting 1001, 1002, 1003, . . . . 1010, is not too bad. I'm not a grappler and I think grappling is important but many people get bored seeing two guys fighting on the ground. I remember when UFC people could stay in the ground forever. Didn't the UFC change that rule? I'm thinking it's because people would rather see a good knockout than two guys "grappling" for long periods. No offense to grapplers intended. :)

No offence the public likes seeing stand up fights not too much ground work that a no brainer, in Japan they appreciate the ground more. And hopefully you dont take offense when i say anyone with grappling experience will realise that 10 seconds is not enough time to do anything other than maybe get injured from a silly move someone is trying because of the time limit.

my point is 4oz gloves where delevoped to allow grappling, if you are not allowing grappling (and the 10 second rule does not allow any grappling) then why use them? why not use 8 or 10oz open hand mma gloves, they make them now and use them in sparring, not in comps as they stop grappling and make it very hard to clinch and strike or ground grapple, seeing as this comp doesnt want the strikers to do this why bother with them? They will provide better protection and still allow open hand strikes

[Frost]

I see your point. It's not really not so much to do with people wanting to use karate chops and the like. The issues is the defense/blocking. Most TCMA systems (especially Southern) have blocking strategies and techniques similar to WC so for them to enter a competition with boxing gloves, they have to be taught to"Kickbox." What this usually boils down to is adjusting the defense to account for an inflexible wrist and inability to open the palms. Stance can be an issue but not necessarily.

One of the staples of TCMA is the pak sao. With gloves and wraps/tape, some of the ways that the pak can be used are lost. Also, it becomes harder to clear and to use lops and so on. The lop is used in a lot of systems outside of TCMA. It is pretty common in TKD for example.

I wasn't in the room when these decisions were made, but I would guess that in order to get better turn out on short notice, the less modification required the better. Plus traditionalist guys are always making a stink about how the gloves hinder their ability to properly express their techniques.

its not that hard to pat down using boxing gloves, and CLF and lama guys do well in sanda with gloves, but i see your point, so my next question is why not use 8 or 10oz open hand MMA gloves, most lubs have these for sparring but not for comps as they make grappling very hard with the extra bulk..but seeing as this comp is allowing no real grappling why not use them i would have thought they would have been much safer

[Frost]

What you need to do is to go into the gym and kickbox three 2 minute rounds where the only acceptable result is a referee stoppage, Knock Out, or decision. Then, you will understand that their is a world of difference between YOUR normal gym sparring where you ask your partner to stop every time it looks to get too physical for you. The fact that you don't understand how punishment to your body causes you to lose strikes in a round is evidence that you haven't even had a serious sparring match before.

he is actually right, there is a world of difference between sparring and competing, going up against someone you dont know who is actually out to hurt or knock you out (or break a limb) is totally different from a hard sparring match, the intent is totally different as is its effects on you.

Is sparring very very useful, yes and its better than any other form of training, but it is not the same

[HumbleWCGuy]

It's a little more than Chi Sao. ;)
http://www.youtube.com/user/ManupStandup#p/a

Phil, I didn't see any kids nor did I see women? I have two 13 year old girls. We can't make it this time anyway, but with more notice this looks to be a nice little debut if they don't kickbox at the Arnold next year.

If you tell me that they have a healthy kids division that fights like the video. I might say to heck with it and run up there.

[HumbleWCGuy]

its not that hard to pat down using boxing gloves, and CLF and lama guys do well in sanda with gloves, but i see your point, so my next question is why not use 8 or 10oz open hand MMA gloves, most lubs have these for sparring but not for comps as they make grappling very hard with the extra bulk..but seeing as this comp is allowing no real grappling why not use them i would have thought they would have been much safer

The boxing gloves require an adjustment period and some training. Also, one some level when you though boxing gloves into the mix learning more boxing blocks helps as well or you will be behind guys who use those blocks.

I have no idea why they are using 4 ounce gloves because somebody pretty good is going to come in there and send guys out on stretchers. Look at the video.

FYI, I am about 14 hours from that venue so it is unlikely that I will attend.

[HumbleWCGuy]

he is actually right

That's par for the course when I am talking with T.

[t_niehoff]

he is actually right, there is a world of difference between sparring and competing, going up against someone you dont know who is actually out to hurt or knock you out (or break a limb) is totally different from a hard sparring match, the intent is totally different as is its effects on you.

Is sparring very very useful, yes and its better than any other form of training, but it is not the same

Yes, there is a "world of difference" -- however, that wasn't the issue. Go read the thread to get the CONTEXT of my POV. I said that the rules of this event made grappling inconsequential. Humble replied about how getting thrown and someone landing on you was somehow "consequential." I asked for him to supply evidence (how many MMA, K1, etc. fights do we have to choose from?) of where being thrown and landed upon made much of a difference in a fight. He couldn't come up with any. Moreover, I told him that I get taken down, thrown, etc. all the time in training and it really isn't consequential -- to which he replied how training isn't fighting in the ring. What a brilliant retort. But how is getting thrown and landed on in training significantly different than getting thrown and landed on in the ring?

[sanjuro_ronin]

A few things:
10 seconds isn't enough time, 30 seconds is a tad better and not too long to make it "boring".
Getting landed on after being thrown is very consequencial, even more so when the guy throwing you KNOWS how to do it AND has 100lbs on you, LOL !!
I got a dislocated collar bone from one of those.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Yes, there is a "world of difference" -- however, that wasn't the issue. Go read the thread to get the CONTEXT of my POV. I said that the rules of this event made grappling inconsequential. Humble replied about how getting thrown and someone landing on you was somehow "consequential." I asked for him to supply evidence (how many MMA, K1, etc. fights do we have to choose from?) of where being thrown and landed upon made much of a difference in a fight. He couldn't come up with any. Moreover, I told him that I get taken down, thrown, etc. all the time in training and it really isn't consequential -- to which he replied how training isn't fighting in the ring. What a brilliant retort. But how is getting thrown and landed on in training significantly different than getting thrown and landed on in the ring?

Exactly, and my point was that I am tired of debating nonsense with you and that you would know if you just and fought in a competition. As it stands, you sit down when you get tired or hurt. My two 13 year old girls fight harder and are tougher than you. In an effort to prepare them for competitions they have already taken standing 8s in sparring and asked to go out and try to recover after getting destroyed in a round. What have you done? You just go and sit down, and that's the root of this BULL SPIT that you are spewing now and continue to spew.

[t_niehoff]

A few things:
10 seconds isn't enough time, 30 seconds is a tad better and not too long to make it "boring".
Getting landed on after being thrown is very consequencial, even more so when the guy throwing you KNOWS how to do it AND has 100lbs on you, LOL !!
I got a dislocated collar bone from one of those.

The whole "boring" issue is rather silly. What is more boring than watching a bunch of scrubs in the first place?

Anything can be "consequential" -- a slip can be consequential. The point is that this is rarely the case (can you think of any? and if it was that consequential, wouldn't we expect to readily know of some famous examples?). Look at all the MMA, K1, san da, etc. fights out there -- where has this (falling on the guy) had any significance? I bet you can find loads of slams that have been consequential (Arona being slammed by Rampage, Hughes slamming Newton come quickly to mind).

[t_niehoff]

Exactly, and my point was that I am tired of debating nonsense with you and that you would know if you just and fought in a competition. As it stand, you sit down when you get tired or hurt my two 13 year old girls fight harder and are tougher than you. In an effort to prepare them for competitions they have already taken standing 8s in sparring and asked to go out and try to recover after getting destroyed in a round. What have you done? You just go and sit down, and that's the root of this BULL SPIT that you are spewing now and continue to spew.

Then don't debate with me.

You and I both know you don't really train and never have. You certainly don't train MMA or you wouldn't say most of the nonsense that you do. This was pointed out again and again by Dale (why is it the people who really do train MMA never agree with you?). And I don't believe you ever competed. Or really know WCK. You are just an anonymous poster who won't say who he is, where he trains, who taught him WCK, etc.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Then don't debate with me.

You and I both know you don't really train and never have. You certainly don't train MMA or you wouldn't say most of the nonsense that you do. This was pointed out again and again by Dale (why is it the people who really do train MMA never agree with you?). And I don't believe you ever competed. Or really know WCK. You are just an anonymous poster who won't say who he is, where he trains, who taught him WCK, etc.

Dale is a 50 year old baby who trolls internet boards looking for admiration. Pretty much anyone else that I have serious disagreements with is because they are flat out novices like yourself.

[t_niehoff]

Dale is a 50 year old baby who trolls internet boards looking for admiration. Pretty much anyone else that I have serious disagreements with is because they are flat out novices like yourself.

You are the troll.

You weren't involved in the discussion I was having with Phil, when I commented that the rules made grappling inconsequential.

Now, everyone who actually trains grappling -- which excludes you as you don't -- agrees with that. You, of course, know better. Even though you don't train grappling (would that make you a "flat out novice"?), you know better. And your "revelation"? Getting thrown and having someone land on you. You interjected yourself into the conversation (what a troll does) to make a inane comment just to stir the pot. Troll.

You claim everyone who disagrees with you is a "novice" but the truth is that you are an anonymous troll, afraid to use her real name, who makes false claims of having been a kickboxer but won't provide any bona fide supporting those claims, who claims to have learned WCK but again won't provide any details as to where, when, from whom you learned it.

[HumbleWCGuy]

You are the troll.

You weren't involved in the discussion I was having with Phil, when I commented that the rules made grappling inconsequential.

Now, everyone who actually trains grappling -- which excludes you as you don't -- agrees with that. You, of course, know better. Even though you don't train grappling (would that make you a "flat out novice"?), you know better. And your "revelation"? Getting thrown and having someone land on you. You interjected yourself into the conversation (what a troll does) to make a inane comment just to stir the pot. Troll.


People agree with you that the ground grappling part is inconsequential but recognize the benefit of hitting throws to injure your opponent isn't.

[HumbleWCGuy]

You are the troll.

You weren't involved in the discussion I was having with Phil, when I commented that the rules made grappling inconsequential.

Now, everyone who actually trains grappling -- which excludes you as you don't -- agrees with that. You, of course, know better. Even though you don't train grappling (would that make you a "flat out novice"?), you know better. And your "revelation"? Getting thrown and having someone land on you. You interjected yourself into the conversation (what a troll does) to make a inane comment just to stir the pot. Troll.

You claim everyone who disagrees with you is a "novice" but the truth is that you are an anonymous troll, afraid to use her real name, who makes false claims of having been a kickboxer but won't provide any bona fide supporting those claims, who claims to have learned WCK but again won't provide any details as to where, when, from whom you learned it.

PM is for a private conversation. The rest of the forum is public. Any Billy Bob who wishes to register an opinion is welcome.

Honestly, at this point you have made so many ridiculous claims that my anonymous opinion carries more weight than yours.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The whole "boring" issue is rather silly. What is more boring than watching a bunch of scrubs in the first place?

Anything can be "consequential" -- a slip can be consequential. The point is that this is rarely the case (can you think of any? and if it was that consequential, wouldn't we expect to readily know of some famous examples?). Look at all the MMA, K1, san da, etc. fights out there -- where has this (falling on the guy) had any significance? I bet you can find loads of slams that have been consequential (Arona being slammed by Rampage, Hughes slamming Newton come quickly to mind).

Many people find ground work boring, you know that, so did the UFC and made the changes, we all know how AbuDhabi just eats up the ratings, right?
;)

Certainly a slam is more consequential then someone falling on someone, even on purpose, due to a throw.

[Wayfaring]

A few things:
10 seconds isn't enough time, 30 seconds is a tad better and not too long to make it "boring".
Getting landed on after being thrown is very consequencial, even more so when the guy throwing you KNOWS how to do it AND has 100lbs on you, LOL !!
I got a dislocated collar bone from one of those.

I agree that 30 sec would allow something to be worked on the ground - 10 sec isn't long at all and kind of discourages ground work.

Was training ippon seoi nage throws last night with a judo olympic alternate for 2000 team and another greco bronze medalist in 2008 olympics. Several words come to mind. "Inconsequential" is not one of them. "Amplitude" however is.

[t_niehoff]

People agree with you that the ground grappling part is inconsequential but recognize the benefit of hitting throws to injure your opponent isn't.

Do you understand the difference between something that is highly unlikely though possible and something that is likely?

Throwing your opponent is not likely to injure your opponent. In fact, it is extremely unlikely. I'm not saying it doesn't sometimes (very rarely) happen. But people get thrown all the time in judo/grappling tournaments, in MMA, in wrestling, etc. and very rarely do people get significantly injured -- and most of the time they do it is due to accidents. This is why you can't find any videos to support your view. The whole idea of throwing someone to cause injury has more to due with fantasy than reality.

What IS consequential about throwing someone and landing on top (which occurs in MMA frequently) is that you are then in a position - the top - to dominate the ground. In fact, if you throw them and don't land on top, there will be space for him to pull guard.

But with only 10 seconds, none of that really matters.

[t_niehoff]

I agree that 30 sec would allow something to be worked on the ground - 10 sec isn't long at all and kind of discourages ground work.

Was training ippon seoi nage throws last night with a judo olympic alternate for 2000 team and another greco bronze medalist in 2008 olympics. Several words come to mind. "Inconsequential" is not one of them. "Amplitude" however is.

Context.

A throw itself isn't in most cases consequential (doesn't carry much in the way of consequences) if you have no time to take advantage (being on top) the throw provides.

[Phil Redmond]

Based on what I've been reading here I'm starting to think that 30 seconds is a lot better. I'm going to suggest it for the next fights. I hope the promoters agree. It's probably too late for them to change the rules now.

[Phil Redmond]

Phil, I didn't see any kids nor did I see women? I have two 13 year old girls. We can't make it this time anyway, but with more notice this looks to be a nice little debut if they don't kickbox at the Arnold next year.

If you tell me that they have a healthy kids division that fights like the video. I might say to heck with it and run up there.
Good idea. I'll be suggesting that they open a kids division.

[Wayfaring]

A throw itself isn't in most cases consequential (doesn't carry much in the way of consequences) if you have no time to take advantage (being on top) the throw provides.

You're just not seeing things from the same amplitudinal point of view that I was seeing things.

[t_niehoff]

You're just not seeing things from the same amplitudinal point of view that I was seeing things.

Perhaps not. You had a world class judoka throwing a scrub at judo. I've seen white belts tap from shoulder pressure in side control too.

I agree that getting slammed isn't fun and games. But as I pointed out, where is the evidence of this stuff having a significant effect in MMA fights or K1 fights or etc.?

[KC Elbows]

Perhaps the Wing Chun forum should implement a thirty second rule for silly flame wars. This thread would be quite concise.:D

[Wayfaring]

Perhaps the Wing Chun forum should implement a thirty second rule for silly flame wars. This thread would be quite concise.:D

Nah. Traffic would drop off. This forum is all about the drama.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Perhaps the Wing Chun forum should implement a thirty second rule for silly flame wars. This thread would be quite concise.:D

Yea T. and I should call a cease fire on the sniping back and fourth. It is a ridiculous endeavor for grown men to act this way even if we can't stand one another.

[Pacman]

Context.

A throw itself isn't in most cases consequential (doesn't carry much in the way of consequences) if you have no time to take advantage (being on top) the throw provides.

true, except for when fighting multiple opponents. throws and other moves are used to neutralize one attacker momentarily allowing you to deal with others.

[Pacman]

IMO, it's probably because sadly, most TMAs aren't very familiar with modern ground fighting.

this is true. most TMAs were developed during a time when the skills were used to defend yourself outside of the ring. most of the time against robbers, bandits, rapists etc., most likely multiple opponents or in a battlefield situation.

going to the ground is not recommended for these types of situations.

[Wayfaring]

going to the ground is not recommended for these types of situations.

Unless the rapist looks like this. Then it IS recommended.

http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad3/sshaness/9620Wonderful20Ass20in20Jean20Short.jpg

[Pacman]

Unless the rapist looks like this. Then it IS recommended.

http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad3/sshaness/9620Wonderful20Ass20in20Jean20Short.jpg


**** how many squats did that take?

[duende]

**** how many squats did that take?


How did she get those shorts on?

[HumbleWCGuy]

How did she get those shorts on?

Either stretch material or they are painted on.

[Frost]

You're just not seeing things from the same amplitudinal point of view that I was seeing things.

lol been there with a few national judo guys, nothing quite makes an impression on you like seeing your legs at an horizontal angle to your head at 6ft off the ground :)

[Frost]

Many people find ground work boring, you know that, so did the UFC and made the changes, we all know how AbuDhabi just eats up the ratings, right?
;)

Certainly a slam is more consequential then someone falling on someone, even on purpose, due to a throw.

it all depends, to heavywights sitting on each other is boring, much like two strikes circling each other for round after round without engaging can be boring..i have lost count of the number of UFC fights i have fast forwarded through waiting for someone to actually commit to a punch..... thank god for sky + :)

[Frost]

Based on what I've been reading here I'm starting to think that 30 seconds is a lot better. I'm going to suggest it for the next fights. I hope the promoters agree. It's probably too late for them to change the rules now.

if they dont agree then suggest bigger gloves, if grappling is not really wanted 8 ot 10oz MMA gloves should be used, still open hand and provide better protection for all involved

[Frost]

this is true. most TMAs were developed during a time when the skills were used to defend yourself outside of the ring. most of the time against robbers, bandits, rapists etc., most likely multiple opponents or in a battlefield situation.

going to the ground is not recommended for these types of situations.

as said over and over, going to the ground is not really ever recommended, but sh*t happens, even monkeys fall out fo trees so its a good idea to know a little ground work for self defence as well as ring fighting..after all most rapings happen on the ground

[sanjuro_ronin]

it all depends, to heavywights sitting on each other is boring, much like two strikes circling each other for round after round without engaging can be boring..i have lost count of the number of UFC fights i have fast forwarded through waiting for someone to actually commit to a punch..... thank god for sky + :)

Dude, I love submission grappling and have many of the abu dhabi on DVD, but I can't get anyone to watch them with me, LOL !

[sanjuro_ronin]

Unless the rapist looks like this. Then it IS recommended.

http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad3/sshaness/9620Wonderful20Ass20in20Jean20Short.jpg

My oh my, an ass like that is the kind that you bite, get lock jaw and die happy !

[HumbleWCGuy]

Good idea. I'll be suggesting that they open a kids division.

From my perspective that 13 to 17 age range needs to be encouraged to do full-contact. It isn't realistic for most people to do what you did and start fighting in their late 30's and early 40's. Also, if TCMA is going to show well, full-contact has to be emphasized from the get go.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Do you understand the difference between something that is highly unlikely though possible and something that is likely?

Throwing your opponent is not likely to injure your opponent. In fact, it is extremely unlikely. I'm not saying it doesn't sometimes (very rarely) happen. But people get thrown all the time in judo/grappling tournaments, in MMA, in wrestling, etc. and very rarely do people get significantly injured -- and most of the time they do it is due to accidents. This is why you can't find any videos to support your view. The whole idea of throwing someone to cause injury has more to due with fantasy than reality.

What IS consequential about throwing someone and landing on top (which occurs in MMA frequently) is that you are then in a position - the top - to dominate the ground. In fact, if you throw them and don't land on top, there will be space for him to pull guard.

But with only 10 seconds, none of that really matters.

Lots of throws have the same effect as body punches. This was the first Sand Da fight that I clicked on. It is hard to imagine that these throws were not significant.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FCDKabF7YQ

Let the excuses begin.

[Violent Designs]

Something I would love to join but unfortunately I live in Los Angeles. :)

But what if you are a Thai boxer or something, they don't have forms. How can they perform a form for the judges? :p

[HumbleWCGuy]

Muay Thais can perform their dance (Ram Muay) for the judges I presume.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k92ibgC1JXo

The rules are a little weird. The judging is based on your expression of your style. If you cross train, are you docked points? That was kind of my concern with the kids that I was hoping to enter. I can throw them out there and have the perform Little Idea, a WC form, but they are going to go out there and do kickboxing and judo because those are what they know best.

From my perspective the fight needs to go who wins. If it is a split decision then award the fight to the person who expressed the best technique irrespective of which style it supposedly represents. It's hard to imagine that anyone is qualified to judge the performance of system beyond some very general observations. "The red corner threw a chain punch so that's 'good' WC," I don't buy it.

[Phil Redmond]

Muay Thais can perform their dance (Ram Muay) for the judges I presume.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k92ibgC1JXo . . .
The MT fighters at the last event did just that. :)

[KC Elbows]

The rules are a little weird. The judging is based on your expression of your style. If you cross train, are you docked points? That was kind of my concern with the kids that I was hoping to enter. I can throw them out there and have the perform Little Idea, a WC form, but they are going to go out there and do kickboxing and judo because those are what they know best.

From my perspective the fight needs to go who wins. If it is a split decision then award the fight to the person who expressed the best technique irrespective of which style it supposedly represents. It's hard to imagine that anyone is qualified to judge the performance of system beyond some very general observations. "The red corner threw a chain punch so that's 'good' WC," I don't buy it.

From another perspective, I like them for their intent.

When I was in hina, I was aware of a lot of schools who had sanshou teams. The school would be hung gar, or mantis, or whatever style, but they would outright state that for sanshou, they used sanshou, not the other stuff, and didn't train the other stuff for fighting. It's my personal opinion that a lot of people, teachers and fighters included, who, if they weren't part of a school that trained a system with aliveness, never did it on their own. They still say "I do style X" or "Style X sucks", but what they know of style X is pretty much nothing, they perform forms by rote, they know the explanations of moves, but cannot do even a handful of them live.

These rules, if I understand them correctly, are an excuse for people to hone their specific styles. As a cross trainer, your styles are not infinite: it seems like you would be judged based on what styles are present, judo, your kungfu, etc.

This would allow the guys focusing on their styles to face resistance from other styles, even when most people doing those styles are cross training, which would drive them to find answers.

It also could rule out guys just coming to brawl.

Every fight doesn't need to cater to the same crowds. He is clearly trying to attract the tma guys while making a ruleset that is outside of sanshou.

[Ironmike]

If someone cant get a technic off on the ground within 10 seconds then it wasn't meant to be! If you need more than 10 seconds to execute a technic then your art is worthless on the street, on your feet or on the ground!

[Frost]

If someone cant get a technic off on the ground within 10 seconds then it wasn't meant to be! If you need more than 10 seconds to execute a technic then your art is worthless on the street, on your feet or on the ground!

hi nice of you to join the conversation, is it time to take your meds yet? :)

[HumbleWCGuy]

Competition Judo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hU8Rym-OpaI

Training hall judo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgjfBnTMn1c

[shawchemical]

Maybe you can point me to some videos of where that really made much of a difference in a fight? Because if it really doesn't make much of a difference, then it would be hard to call it consequential (since it had no significant consequences), wouldn't it?

It's pretty clear you'rea bitter and twisted incompetent with no clue at all.

I guarantee you that throws can and do stop real fights.

especially on concrete, or even hard packed soil.

Even on soft soil, a hard tackle can be incapacitating.

[Wayfaring]

If someone cant get a technic off on the ground within 10 seconds then it wasn't meant to be! If you need more than 10 seconds to execute a technic then your art is worthless on the street, on your feet or on the ground!

The 1990's called. They want their argument back.

[HumbleWCGuy]

The 1990's called. They want their argument back.

On some level he has a point. When grappling first hit it didn't make a lot of sense to me because I was young strong and athletic. Guys were eager to show me their grappling. I would win the take down get on top and rake their eyes and put my hand on their throats to demonstrate other bad things that could happen. Eventually, they might get me to tap but it was kind of inconsequental.

Roy Harris was hitting the JKD circuit showing people his grappling and he was getting some of the same treatment. Sure he would eventually tap out everybody but only after it was kind of evident that there was a flaw in the sport mentality and how grappling was being presented to guys with a street mind set. So here was a BJJ black belt who was going around and grappling people who really didn't know the etiquette and he wasn't defending his eyes and throat effectively on the bottom so it begs the question about how much time is needed on the ground in a high-stakes scenario.

I eventually came to understand the importance of learning the positions and escapes. I have probably about 1.5 years of BJJ training all told. However, I think thatif you are talking death match, if the fight goes to the ground and the person who achieves the dominant position first is the victor and that really only takes about 10 seconds. If a take down happens and you land in the scarf hold, that fight is basically over. From that point, anything can happen from popping someones eyeball out of their head to just some clawing to temporarily blind them. On some level, what you can do within that first 10 seconds on the ground lets you know where you stand in the streets. Can a good BJJ guy recover and work some stuff? For sure, he can but it better be a pretty good purple belt or higher trained at a Gracie academy and not a sport school.

Now everybody is kind of indoctrinated into BJJ ettiquette so now it's about working your stuff from the back and blah blah, but we need to think in real terms too. Now I also understand that this competition isn't a death match so why not work some stuff? However, I think that there is some reasoning to the idea that you have to be able to make a move in 10 seconds.

[t_niehoff]

It's pretty clear you'rea bitter and twisted incompetent with no clue at all.

I guarantee you that throws can and do stop real fights.

especially on concrete, or even hard packed soil.

Even on soft soil, a hard tackle can be incapacitating.

Sure they CAN (possibility) but it is very unLIKELY (probability). You are displaying the typical TMA mindset (take my word for it, in"real fight", blah, blah, blah). Whereas when we look at the EVIDENCE, all the recorded fights we can see for ourselves, both in competition and "street", we don't see any of these "finishers". That's how low probability they are.

My "incompetence" and "bitterness" (LOL!) comes from actual experience, where in practice (MMA) I see many others (including pros) and experience myself getting regularly taken down, tackled and thrown in practice, with very little significant effects. And as I indicate above, my experience in practice is validated by competition (you don't see throws, etc. causing injury in comps either).

It's always better base your conclusions about fighting on actual fighting.

[LSWCTN1]

Sure they CAN (possibility) but it is very unLIKELY (probability). You are displaying the typical TMA mindset (take my word for it, in"real fight", blah, blah, blah). Whereas when we look at the EVIDENCE, all the recorded fights we can see for ourselves, both in competition and "street", we don't see any of these "finishers". That's how low probability they are.

My "incompetence" and "bitterness" (LOL!) comes from actual experience, where in practice (MMA) I see many others (including pros) and experience myself getting regularly taken down, tackled and thrown in practice, with very little significant effects. And as I indicate above, my experience in practice is validated by competition (you don't see throws, etc. causing injury in comps either).

It's always better base your conclusions about fighting on actual fighting.

serious question T, as you know i value your standpoint; just not the way you put it across...

have you ever fought mma? not sparring with partners in the same club, but actually competed against someone?

ive got a feeling that those same throws and takedowns and technique executions would feel a helluva lot different if you experience them from someone from outside of your training groups...

[m1k3]

Humble, here's another "the 1990's want there thread back".

There is so much wrong in your thread I don't know where to begin.


On some level he has a point. When grappling first hit it didn't make a lot of sense to me because I was young strong and athletic. Guys were eager to show me their grappling. I would win the take down get on top and rake their eyes and put my hand on their throats to demonstrate other bad things that could happen. Eventually, they might get me to tap but it was kind of inconsequental.

Ok, here you are going with the 'BJJ doesn't know how to take down' fallacy. Sorry but wrong. BTW, did you have any grappling background at all, maybe wrestled in HS? Because, if you didn't the people you were grappling with didn't know what they were doing.


I have probably about 1.5 years of BJJ training all told. However, I think thatif you are talking death match, if the fight goes to the ground and the person who achieves the dominant position first is the victor and that really only takes about 10 seconds.

Here I agree with you, and it will be the BJJ guy unless the street fighter is a trained grappler he will be the one in the bad position. You seem to be under the assumption that takedowns are easy to do even against trained grapplers. You do your typical street type takedown and the grappler will either sprawl, take your back and choke you out or latch on to a guillotine and choke you out. I can speak from experience here working with new guys who came to the school I trained at.

BTW, reaching for someone's eyes or throat while they have you in guard will end up with you having a broken arm in about 10 seconds. So technically you are correct, just not in the way you meant.

I won't criticize your striking because I don't have enough experience to discuss it at your level. Please have the same courtesy with grappling.

Mike

[t_niehoff]

On some level he has a point.


No, he doesn't. It's the same old view based in ignorance and lack of experience. Even worse, is that it continues today -- which only means that he is ignoring all the evidence to the contrary.

Here is the old Rickson-Levicki fight. Rickson was at that time in the top five in terms of groundfighitng/submission grappling. Can he finish Levicki, who is clueless on the groundm in 10 seconds? No.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHwVQmZVZL4&feature=search

Even good ground-n-pound takes over 10 seconds.



When grappling first hit it didn't make a lot of sense to me because I was young strong and athletic. Guys were eager to show me their grappling. I would win the take down get on top and rake their eyes and put my hand on their throats to demonstrate other bad things that could happen. Eventually, they might get me to tap but it was kind of inconsequental.


Another case of someone claiming to have beaten grapplers with strength and foul tactics. Bullsh1t. That's all it is.

You're not going to "win the takedown" with strength against someone who knows what he is doing (and so has skill). Levecki had 100 lbs of muscle on Rickson and didn't. Not only won't you get "the top" but it won't matter if you do -- grapplers are used to being there, and can easily deal with someone with little skill who has the top. Moreover, foul tactics have been shown, over and over again, to be inconsequential -- when grappling, the better grappler wins. It takes skill to beat skill.

BTW, dealing with a finger rake is incredibly easy, as it happens unintentionally from time to time and guys put their hands in your face all the time. All you need to do is close your eyes. Any grappler has experienced this many, many times while grappling. And putting the hand on the throat isn't a threat at all. What are you going to do? Crush my windpipe? LOL! More fantasy. This is the kind of stuff that reveals to anyone with experience that you are talking pure fantasy.

Here's another case of someone who ignores all the evidence and puts forward fake stories of how he "beat" grapplers to support his ignorant and mistaken views.



Roy Harris was hitting the JKD circuit showing people his grappling and he was getting some of the same treatment. Sure he would eventually tap out everybody but only after it was kind of evident that there was a flaw in the sport mentality and how grappling was being presented to guys with a street mind set.


"Street mindset" means fantasy mindset (how I imagine a fight will be).



So here was a BJJ black belt who was going around and grappling people who really didn't know the etiquette and he wasn't defending his eyes and throat effectively on the bottom so it begs the question about how much time is needed on the ground in a high-stakes scenario.


People who don't grapple, and so don't know what is really involved, can't answer that question. This is the same-old, tired nonsense TMAists spouted since the Gracies came out. It's been refuted time and time again.



I eventually came to understand the importance of learning the positions and escapes. I have probably about 1.5 years of BJJ training all told.


No you haven't. If you had, you wouldn't be talking this nonsense.



However, I think thatif you are talking death match, if the fight goes to the ground and the person who achieves the dominant position first is the victor and that really only takes about 10 seconds. If a take down happens and you land in the scarf hold, that fight is basically over. From that point, anything can happen from popping someones eyeball out of their head to just some clawing to temporarily blind them. On some level, what you can do within that first 10 seconds on the ground lets you know where you stand in the streets. Can a good BJJ guy recover and work some stuff? For sure, he can but it better be a pretty good purple belt or higher trained at a Gracie academy and not a sport school.


"Death match"? Fantasy stuff.

And your conclusions only demonstrate that you have zero experience training on the ground.



Now everybody is kind of indoctrinated into BJJ ettiquette so now it's about working your stuff from the back and blah blah, but we need to think in real terms too. Now I also understand that this competition isn't a death match so why not work some stuff? However, I think that there is some reasoning to the idea that you have to be able to make a move in 10 seconds.

Death match! ROFLOL!

[t_niehoff]

serious question T, as you know i value your standpoint; just not the way you put it across...

have you ever fought mma? not sparring with partners in the same club, but actually competed against someone?


I'm too old to compete in MMA. But I don't ONLY spar with "partners in the same club" -- I've trained in several clubs, have sparred with lots of people who aren't in my club (visitors from other clubs, at MMA seminars, when I visit other clubs, etc.). And I spar with people who have/do compete.



ive got a feeling that those same throws and takedowns and technique executions would feel a helluva lot different if you experience them from someone from outside of your training groups...

I sparred with Karo (MMA, judo) at a seminar he held, and got tossed pretty good (amazing arm throw that he hit from out of nowhere).

Throws, takedowns, etc. are ROUTINE in MMA. You see them in training, you see them in comp. Where are all the injuries? Where is there any videos of them making much of a difference in a fight?

Here's a vid of world class judoka getting thrown and landed upon:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26hhv1v9b1U&feature=search

Greco guys:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MA7355kfnoQ&feature=search

Where are all the injuries?

The problem is people have been told this nonsense, and they for some reason want to believe it. But the evidence just doesn't support it.

[iunojupiter]

This is great. 7 pages of bickering. It's like watching "The Odd Couple", you guys sound like your married.
***breaks out the beer and popcorn***
Let the show resume after this commercial break.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I won't criticize your striking because I don't have enough experience to discuss it at your level. Please have the same courtesy with grappling.

Mike

You should reread what I said. I am no criticizing grappling. I am criticizing grapplers. Roy Harris was a judo champ who was content to go out and lay on his back and get poked in the eye. My friends did the same, one is a black belt in Judo now and the other has been offered a brown in bjj. My simple point is that grapplers get into a sport mindset and think that they need a long time to work their stuff when the reality of it is that it comes down to winning a takedown and landing on top. I understand the importance of developing all the positions and learning many submissions as they are all relevant; it's just in my mind there is some value in a 10 second rule that develops a sense of urgency that sport-minded grapplers don't have.

If you ask me a lot of the crying about the 10 seconds reflects a sport grappling mindset.

I am not sure where you are getting that I think that BJJers are bad at take downs. I will say that the lower belts, purple and below aren't as good as they think they are. From what I have seen the take down seems to just go to who is more athletic and not really based much on skill.

[m1k3]

HWC, I'm curious as to what BJJ people you've been exposed to. At the school I attend (its BJJ and MMA) takedowns are a regular part of training and quite a few of the people who train there have wrestling experience, myself included. They also offer a wrestling for MMA class.

Edit:
Thinking about the 10 second rule and your sense of urgency. You do realize that Helio was totally against time limits and thought the longer the fight went the better it was for the BJJ player. And he was doing Vale Tudo. Look at the early UFCs for examples of BJJ players against non-grapplers. There was no intention to move quickly, you took your time and let your opponent wear himself out.

I'm just not buying your argument. It seems to me the sports oriented players with timelimits would be the ones with the sense of urgency.


Mike

[Knifefighter]

You should reread what I said. I am no criticizing grappling. I am criticizing grapplers. Roy Harris was a judo champ who was content to go out and lay on his back and get poked in the eye. My friends did the same, one is a black belt in Judo now and the other has been offered a brown in bjj. My simple point is that grapplers get into a sport mindset and think that they need a long time to work their stuff when the reality of it is that it comes down to winning a takedown and landing on top. I understand the importance of developing all the positions and learning many submissions as they are all relevant; it's just in my mind there is some value in a 10 second rule that develops a sense of urgency that sport-minded grapplers don't have.

If you ask me a lot of the crying about the 10 seconds reflects a sport grappling mindset.

I am not sure where you are getting that I think that BJJers are bad at take downs. I will say that the lower belts, purple and below aren't as good as they think they are. From what I have seen the take down seems to just go to who is more athletic and not really based much on skill.


I've trained with Roy several times. He was a JKD/Kali guy who was also a cop. If anyone was aware of the problems with "just grappling for sport" it was Roy. Roy was also a student of Vunak who is a big proponent of biting on the ground.


Where do you get the things you post? You must make them up.

You have to be one of the most clueless guys who has ever posted here.

[t_niehoff]

I've trained with Roy several times. He was a JKD/Kali guy who was also a cop. If anyone was aware of the problems with "just grappling for sport" it was Roy.


Where do you get the things you post? You must make them up.

You have to be one of the most clueless guys who has ever posted here.

But he knows all about "Death Matches"!

[HumbleWCGuy]

I've trained with Roy several times. He was a JKD/Kali guy who was also a cop. If anyone was aware of the problems with "just grappling for sport" it was Roy. Roy was also a student of Vunak who is a big proponent of biting on the ground.


Where do you get the things you post? You must make them up.

You have to be one of the most clueless guys who has ever posted here.

You can see it on some of his early seminar tapes so you don't have to take my word for it. Like I said, it was a failure to frame the training to these guys if you ask me.

[HumbleWCGuy]

But he knows all about "Death Matches"!
You won't even put in a good sparring match. If someone said that they were going to fly in to town and kick your butt, You would probably call off of work, ask for police protection, and hide in a hotel for the next month.

[Knifefighter]

You can see it on some of his early seminar tapes so you don't have to take my word for it.

That's what happens when you only watch tapes, but never actually train with real instruction. You get a very warped view of things.

But, please, go ahead and point to the particular tapes in which people are jabbing his eyes. Knowing Roy, I'm pretty sure he would bite off a mouthful of fingers of anyone who tried to do that to him.

[HumbleWCGuy]

That's what happens when you only watch tapes, but never actually train with real instruction. You get a very warped view of things.

But, please, go ahead and point to the particular tapes in which people are jabbing his eyes. Knowing Roy, I'm pretty sure he would bite off a mouthful of fingers of anyone who tried to do that to him.

Several of my friends were in attendance at the seminars. I think that some of them might even be on a few tapes. I spoke with them about the seminars right before I posted my initial comment.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Where are all the injuries?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61pzuW8aJ1k&feature=search

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YOKtMsF5ds&feature=search

[HumbleWCGuy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61pzuW8aJ1k&feature=search

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YOKtMsF5ds&feature=search

Do they have to be injured to the point that paramedics come for the fight to be affected by a throw? Could it just be that all that a takedown needs to do is just sap a few strikes out of someone? Again, it's a competition so it isn't customary to stand up and tell you opponent that they hurt you pretty bad. Typically it is expected to maintain your composure.

[Knifefighter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61pzuW8aJ1k&feature=search

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YOKtMsF5ds&feature=search

Do throws sometimes result in injuries? Occasionally, sure. But, the majority of the time they do nothing, other than put the opponent on the ground for you to control.

[t_niehoff]

You won't even put in a good sparring match. If someone said that they were going to fly in to town and kick your butt, You would probably call off of work, ask for police protection, and hide in a hotel for the next month.

Continuing to make stuff up, are you?

You are continuing to argue a view that has been OPENLY and roundly discredited and refuted time and time again for 20 years.

And, you don't have a clue about grappling. When EVERYONE who actually grapples tells you that a 10 second-rule essentially takes grappling away from you, and you can see this in every single MMA bout you care to look at, yet you continue to disagree -- what does this tell us about you?

[Knifefighter]

Several of my friends were in attendance at the seminars. I think that some of them might even be on a few tapes. I spoke with them about the seminars right before I posted my initial comment.

Once again, someone is lying. Either you or your friends.

Like I said, I know Roy and I know his take on grappling and fighting and it is nothing like you are portraying. The guy will bite your nose off on the ground.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Continuing to make stuff up, are you?

You are continuing to argue a view that has been OPENLY and roundly discredited and refuted time and time again for 20 years.

And, you don't have a clue about grappling. When EVERYONE who actually grapples tells you that a 10 second-rule essentially takes grappling away from you, and you can see this in every single MMA bout you care to look at, yet you continue to disagree -- what does this tell us about you?
It takes sport grappling away. Obviously grappling training still gives grapplers an advantage. It's just that that they have to change the strategy.

[Wayfaring]

I sparred with Karo (MMA, judo) at a seminar he held, and got tossed pretty good (amazing arm throw that he hit from out of nowhere).

Throws, takedowns, etc. are ROUTINE in MMA. You see them in training, you see them in comp. Where are all the injuries? Where is there any videos of them making much of a difference in a fight?

Here's a vid of world class judoka getting thrown and landed upon:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26hhv1v9b1U&feature=search

Greco guys:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MA7355kfnoQ&feature=search

Where are all the injuries?

The problem is people have been told this nonsense, and they for some reason want to believe it. But the evidence just doesn't support it.

My point in discussing aspects of this is not to try and argue that effective throws - wrestling, sambo, judo, are fight ending techniques that always cause injury. In some cases they might, but in the majority they will not.

However, in current MMA it's pretty clear with the evidence that we have that if you have two equally matched opponents, but one gets more takedowns than the other in a MMA match, they will win. Takedowns / throws show domination in ring control aspects and show someone is winning a fight. They also open up an advantage having the top position where someone is recovering from the initial impact of being taken down. There are quite a number of fight finishes of a takedown followed by mount GNP.

I am saying that this accurately reflects the effectiveness and usefulness of takedowns and throws in a fight scenario outside of the ring as well.

Yet somehow my point of saying they are not "inconsequential" has been elaborated upon and expanded to the point that it is nothing like my original argument.

[t_niehoff]

Do throws sometimes result in injuries? Occasionally, sure. But, the majority of the time they do nothing, other than put the opponent on the ground for you to control.

Just about anytime you throw someone or take them down, YOU are doing with them.

As I have repeatedly pointed out, it is a question of possibility (yes, injuries do happen - it's possible) versus probability/liklihood (they rarely happen).

And, as I also previously mentioned, the main advantage of the throw, takedown is that it puts you in a good position for the ground.

[Knifefighter]

Even knife attacks often take longer than 10 seconds to finish on the ground:

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/802461/

http://www.livevideo.com/video/006FEE6BE44143E4B6698BC8CCA68674/thief-attack-with-knife.aspx

[HumbleWCGuy]

Once again, someone is lying. Either you or your friends.

Like I said, I know Roy and I know his take on grappling and fighting and it is nothing like you are portraying. The guy will bite your nose off on the ground.

As usual, you exaggerate because you don't like me.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Do throws sometimes result in injuries? Occasionally, sure. But, the majority of the time they do nothing, other than put the opponent on the ground for you to control.

Of course, and the reason is that both the thrower and throwee don't want to hurt/get hurt.
From day one you are taught how to throw the guy in a way that is relatively safe ( as throws go) for him.
The point of the throw is to get the point or get the "takedown" not to injure ( though it can obviously) and yet, even under those controlled circumstances, people get hurt, sometimes (more often) minor and sometimes major.
Luckily most people train their break falls and know enough to hold on to make even a throw with bad intentions, not that bad.
Of course, it doesn't take much to make a good throw and bad one.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Even knife attacks often take longer than 10 seconds to finish on the ground:

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/802461/

http://www.livevideo.com/video/006FEE6BE44143E4B6698BC8CCA68674/thief-attack-with-knife.aspx

He was in position to finish immediately which was my point. Second, because he spend to much time on the ground he was attacked by multiple people. Third, one decent throat shot would have ended it.

[t_niehoff]

It takes sport grappling away. Obviously grappling training still gives grapplers an advantage. It's just that that they have to change the strategy.

NOTHING takes "sport grappling" away. The SKILL is always there. It is the sport that allows people to develop higher levels of skill in the first place. Without sport training, you have very little.

You seem to think that sport training will somehow make you vulnerable to foul tactics. It doesn't.

[HumbleWCGuy]

There is a different mindset with a San Da fighter. San da isn't lookigng to just throw you on the ground. If the energy is spent to throw someone, you want to hurt them. San da point system rewards "big air."

[Knifefighter]

As usual, you exaggerate because you don't like me.

I don't exaggerate because I don't like you. I tell you my own actual experience based on my actual life experience of knowing him because you are making things up and lying again.

[t_niehoff]

Of course, and the reason is that both the thrower and throwee don't want to hurt/get hurt.
From day one you are taught how to throw the guy in a way that is relatively safe ( as throws go) for him.
The point of the throw is to get the point or get the "takedown" not to injure ( though it can obviously) and yet, even under those controlled circumstances, people get hurt, sometimes (more often) minor and sometimes major.
Luckily most people train their break falls and know enough to hold on to make even a throw with bad intentions, not that bad.
Of course, it doesn't take much to make a good throw and bad one.

The point of the throw is TO GET THE THROW. Look at the judo clip I put up -- there isn't time to try not to injure the other guy. You hit the throw as fast as you friggin' can. Nor can you somehow alter the throw to make it "more dangerous": you can going to do it the way you train to do it (because it happens so fast).

Just face the facts -- throwing, which most often includes landing on top of the guy, will not except in rare accidents significantly hurt your opponent. Period.

[HumbleWCGuy]

NOTHING takes "sport grappling" away. The SKILL is always there. It is the sport that allows people to develop higher levels of skill in the first place. Without sport training, you have very little.

You seem to think that sport training will somehow make you vulnerable to foul tactics. It doesn't.

So if someone breaks a bottle on the bar and runs torwards me, I should pull guard and work for a triangle right?

[HumbleWCGuy]

I don't exaggerate because I don't like you. I tell you my own actual experience based on my actual life experience of knowing him because you are making things up and lying again.

Says a self admitted internet troll. LOL

[Knifefighter]

Of course, and the reason is that both the thrower and throwee don't want to hurt/get hurt.
From day one you are taught how to throw the guy in a way that is relatively safe ( as throws go) for him.
The point of the throw is to get the point or get the "takedown" not to injure ( though it can obviously) and yet, even under those controlled circumstances, people get hurt, sometimes (more often) minor and sometimes major.
Luckily most people train their break falls and know enough to hold on to make even a throw with bad intentions, not that bad.
Of course, it doesn't take much to make a good throw and bad one.

Complete and utter bull$hit.

I'm guessing you've never grappled competitively. Everyone who competes in grappling knows that you are always trying to throw the opponent as hard as you can. Anyone who attempts to throw "safely" will not make out of the first round of competition.

LOL @ any competitive grappler who would even think about doing takedowns in a manner not to injure the opponent.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Just face the facts -- throwing, which most often includes landing on top of the guy, will not except in rare accidents significantly hurt your opponent. Period.

But you have never been thrown in a real match in house or otherwise.

[t_niehoff]

So if someone breaks a bottle on the bar and runs torwards me, I should pull guard and work for a triangle right?

This is an idiotic argument.

No, you pull your gun and shoot him. That's the St. Louis way. :)

[Knifefighter]

There is a different mindset with a San Da fighter. San da isn't lookigng to just throw you on the ground. If the energy is spent to throw someone, you want to hurt them. San da point system rewards "big air."

All grappling is like this. You always take the opponent down as hard as possible.

Only people who have never grappled don't understand this.

[Knifefighter]

But you have never been thrown in a real match in house or otherwise.

I've been doing competitive grappling since I was 14. Terrence is right about the throws.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Complete and utter bull$hit.

I'm guessing you've never grappled competitively. Everyone who competes in grappling knows that you are always trying to throw the opponent as hard as you can. Anyone who attempts to throw "safely" will not make out of the first round of competition.

LOL @ any competitive grappler who would even think about doing takedowns in a manner not to injure the opponent.

As little as you are I am sure that you just learned to pull guard, butt scoot, and poke your butt out. I you were a judoka, you would have been hurt all match every match.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Complete and utter bull$hit.

I'm guessing you've never grappled competitively. Everyone who competes in grappling knows that you are always trying to throw the opponent as hard as you can. Anyone who attempts to throw "safely" will not make out of the first round of competition.

LOL @ any competitive grappler who would even think about doing takedowns in a manner not to injure the opponent.

Well, lets see...
Ontario lightweight Judo champion in 92.
4th place Lightweight National Judo Championships in 92
Lightweight Judo champion Canadian armed forces 94

I think you need to re-read what I wrote, either that or I am totally making a mess of what I am trying to say...

[t_niehoff]

But you have never been thrown in a real match in house or otherwise.

ANYONE who trains MMA or judo or wrestling gets thrown and taken down ALL THE TIME. That's what they do. You can look at every video of every comp and see it. do you understand that? People are getting thrown all the time. And very rarely, and then it's an accident, do any injuries occur. That includes training and comps (real matches).

[Knifefighter]

As little as you are I am sure that you just learned to pull guard, butt scoot, and poke your butt out. I you were a judoka, you would have been hurt all match every match.

I was a wrestler long before I trained BJJ.

[HumbleWCGuy]

All grappling is like this. You always take the opponent down as hard as possible.

Only people who have never grappled don't understand this.

That may be the case but there is a big difference between the throws and impact in Sand da and Judo on one side and the throws in Bjj and Greco Roman Wrestling on the other.

[Knifefighter]

Well, lets see...
Ontario lightweight Judo champion in 92.
4th place Lightweight National Judo Championships in 92
Lightweight Judo champion Canadian armed forces 94

I think you need to re-read what I wrote, either that or I am totally making a mess of what I am trying to say...

Then you should know there is no such thing as "throwing safely", other than when warming up, going light in practice, or doing drills.

No one in competition ever throws "safely". If you don't know that, you are lying about your accomplishments.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Then you should know there is no such thing as "throwing safely", other than when warming up, going light in practice, or doing drills.

No one in competition ever throws "safely". If you don't know that, you are lying about your accomplishments.

You really need to re-read what I said:
From day one you are taught how to throw the guy in a way that is relatively safe ( as throws go) for him.

[Frost]

On some level he has a point. When grappling first hit it didn't make a lot of sense to me because I was young strong and athletic. Guys were eager to show me their grappling. I would win the take down get on top and rake their eyes and put my hand on their throats to demonstrate other bad things that could happen. Eventually, they might get me to tap but it was kind of inconsequental.

Roy Harris was hitting the JKD circuit showing people his grappling and he was getting some of the same treatment. Sure he would eventually tap out everybody but only after it was kind of evident that there was a flaw in the sport mentality and how grappling was being presented to guys with a street mind set. So here was a BJJ black belt who was going around and grappling people who really didn't know the etiquette and he wasn't defending his eyes and throat effectively on the bottom so it begs the question about how much time is needed on the ground in a high-stakes scenario.

I eventually came to understand the importance of learning the positions and escapes. I have probably about 1.5 years of BJJ training all told. However, I think thatif you are talking death match, if the fight goes to the ground and the person who achieves the dominant position first is the victor and that really only takes about 10 seconds. If a take down happens and you land in the scarf hold, that fight is basically over. From that point, anything can happen from popping someones eyeball out of their head to just some clawing to temporarily blind them. On some level, what you can do within that first 10 seconds on the ground lets you know where you stand in the streets. Can a good BJJ guy recover and work some stuff? For sure, he can but it better be a pretty good purple belt or higher trained at a Gracie academy and not a sport school.

Now everybody is kind of indoctrinated into BJJ ettiquette so now it's about working your stuff from the back and blah blah, but we need to think in real terms too. Now I also understand that this competition isn't a death match so why not work some stuff? However, I think that there is some reasoning to the idea that you have to be able to make a move in 10 seconds.

im sorry but how much grappling have you actually done and with who? because i can tell you from personal experience and from watching dozens of trained guys with no ground expereince come into various gyms, that not one of us could stuff a half decent takedown and rake the eyes, jab the throat etc until we had some training its simply not in most peoples skill set.

every MMA and BJJ school i know at trains clinch and takedowns as much as they do the ground, and hell even the guys who spent 80% of their time on the ground still have a good enough takedown game to drop most guys

[HumbleWCGuy]

You really need to re-read what I said:
From day one you are taught how to throw the guy in a way that is relatively safe ( as throws go) for him.

They are both so indoctrinated into that mind set that they don't even realize that they throw with safety and politeness in mind.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Just face the facts -- throwing, which most often includes landing on top of the guy, will not except in rare accidents significantly hurt your opponent. Period.
Well yeah, I think that is a given and I agreed, remember?
The point I was making is that it can happen and does happen more frequently then you are implying.
Typically in training then in competition but there are reason for that too.
It doesn't take much to make a safe throw a dangerous one.

[t_niehoff]

You really need to re-read what I said:
From day one you are taught how to throw the guy in a way that is relatively safe ( as throws go) for him.

OK. And that being the case, then it is not surprising that throws and takedowns (which includes landing on them) won't except in rare accidents cause significant injury.

The point of having "safe" throws is that we can practice really doing them. If we had some throw we couldn't realistically practice, then we could never develop much in the way of skill performing them. This is the foundation of sport.

[m1k3]

So if someone breaks a bottle on the bar and runs torwards me, I should pull guard and work for a triangle right?

What does this have to do with anything? Anyone can play the what if game. It also makes me question your grappling background, anyone whose done BJJ knows there is a lot more to it than pulling guard.

BTW, if you control the hand with the bottle and put him to sleep it might not be a bad move. In my case however I am going to do my best to get out of dodge. My next choice would be weapons of opportunity. So I might pick up a chair and throw it at him, or get behind some big fat lady, choke her out and use her for a shield as I make my way towards the door.


Or maybe even a chi blast. :p

[Knifefighter]

They are both so indoctrinated into that mind set that they don't even realize that they throw with safety and politeness in mind.

But SANDA somehow doesn't?

[Frost]

It takes sport grappling away. Obviously grappling training still gives grapplers an advantage. It's just that that they have to change the strategy.

no the 10sec rule takes away grappling period...just as a 10 second striking rule would make striking useless or a 10 second clinch rule makes clinching pointless

[sanjuro_ronin]

They are both so indoctrinated into that mind set that they don't even realize that they throw with safety and politeness in mind.

I wouldn't go that far, there is intent to throw, if not to injure, though at times you do go after a known injury.
And all throws are done with intent and power, its just that both are.shoudl be well trained enough to throw correctly and land correctly.

I can say this, a well applied throw on someone NOT trained to be thrown, can be a fight ender.
To quote Gene LeBell:
Many people can take getting punched, very few can take getting dropped on their head.

[t_niehoff]

Well yeah, I think that is a given and I agreed, remember?
The point I was making is that it can happen and does happen more frequently then you are implying.
Typically in training then in competition but there are reason for that too.
It doesn't take much to make a safe throw a dangerous one.

Go find ONE instance in MMA out of all the thousands of fights on youtube where a throw (not a slam) produced significant injury. Now before you say that you aren't going to go through all those thousands to prove your point, let me say, "Exactly!" The mere fact that you would need to go through thousands to find one PROVES how infrequently it occurs.

[Frost]

So if someone breaks a bottle on the bar and runs torwards me, I should pull guard and work for a triangle right?

why do people always think sports grappling means the guard and subs...you do know it also means takedowns, clinch controling positions and top pinning position as well......:rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

OK. And that being the case, then it is not surprising that throws and takedowns (which includes landing on them) won't except in rare accidents cause significant injury.

The point of having "safe" throws is that we can practice really doing them. If we had some throw we couldn't realistically practice, then we could never develop much in the way of skill performing them. This is the foundation of sport.

Correct and agreed, that said, EVEN under these conditions, injuries can and do happen.
Sometimes on purpose.
The old ippon seio nage ended with the guy getting dropped on his head, a fight ender for sure, but they could never drill it that way, of course, so the crucial part of the throw, that "drive" into the ground, was never worked on so that part was always "missiing", when Kano changed it to the current Ippon seio nage, with the guy landing on his back, they were able to apply it, dril it completely and nail it far more times than the old version.

Of course the paradox was that doing the new Ippon allowed them to do the OLD one too.

[Knifefighter]

That may be the case but there is a big difference between the throws and impact in Sand da and Judo on one side and the throws in Bjj and Greco Roman Wrestling on the other.

Once again proving how clueless you are

http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1826829

http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1683177

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgswFluo8kU&feature=related

[HumbleWCGuy]

no the 10sec rule takes away grappling period...just as a 10 second striking rule would make striking useless or a 10 second clinch rule makes clinching pointless

10 seconds is about all get to clinch in most kickboxing formats. If you have a good clinch game relative to your opponents, you don't need a lot. Besides, you can clinch separate and reengage as many times as needed.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Go find ONE instance in MMA out of all the thousands of fights on youtube where a throw (not a slam) produced significant injury. Now before you say that you aren't going to go through all those thousands to prove your point, let me say, "Exactly!" The mere fact that you would need to go through thousands to find one PROVES how infrequently it occurs.

Won't argue that point, you are quite correct.
Of course the ratio of throws in MMA is nothing compared to judo, obviously.
But your point is well made and valid.

[Frost]

That may be the case but there is a big difference between the throws and impact in Sand da and Judo on one side and the throws in Bjj and Greco Roman Wrestling on the other.

no there is a difference in scoring in (some events) so you will see them use different takedowns if they want to, however go watch jacare in BJJ he hits the same throws he uses in Judo, go watch Rahdi ferguson in Judo and sub grappling same takedowns and same inpact.

you see trip takedowns in all the above apart from Greco (because of the rules) but grappling is grappling, throws are throws its all the same, you try to slam or take him down as hard as you can

[t_niehoff]

I can say this, a well applied throw on someone NOT trained to be thrown, can be a fight ender.


Sure, it CAN (possibly) but most LIKELY won't.

Do you not understand how significant that is?



To quote Gene LeBell:
Many people can take getting punched, very few can take getting dropped on their head.

One problem is that most throws don't drop people on their heads.

And even when that does occur, it's not the "fight ender" people believe it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSGAtH8KqAg&feature=search

[Knifefighter]

why do people always think sports grappling means the guard and subs...you do know it also means takedowns, clinch controling positions and top pinning position as well......:rolleyes:

People who have never grappled usually think this.

[Frost]

10 seconds is about all get to clinch in most kickboxing formats. If you have a good clinch game relative to your opponents, you don't need a lot. Besides, you can clinch separate and reengage as many times as needed.
Yes and they suck in the clinch compared to thai guys because of the limited time, and how many throws do you see in kickboxing..virtually none because of the fact they arent allowed to clinch

[HumbleWCGuy]

Once again proving how clueless you are

http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1826829

http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1683177

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgswFluo8kU&feature=related

You had to go to a humor page to get what are essentially anomalous takedowns in wrestling.

I can show yo brutal takedown after brutal takedown in run of the mill San Da and judo matches. Why because it is a different mindset. Generally GR wrestling and BJJ are pretty soft in the takedown department by comparison. Don't show me the highlight real show me the standard match with the brutal takedowns. They just don't exist in volume like they do in judo and Sanda.

[Knifefighter]

I can show yo brutal takedown after brutal takedown in run of the mill San Da and judo matches. Why because it is a different mindset. Generally GR wrestling and BJJ are pretty soft in the takedown department by comparison.

Please, go ahead and post them.

[t_niehoff]

You had to go to a humor page to get what are essentially anomalous takedowns in wrestling.

I can show yo brutal takedown after brutal takedown in run of the mill San Da and judo matches. Why because it is a different mindset. Generally GR wrestling and BJJ are pretty soft in the takedown department by comparison.

Ok, then SHOW US. And let's see all the injuries those throws cause (none).

BTW, here are those "soft" GR throws:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MA7355kfnoQ&feature=search

[HumbleWCGuy]

Ok, then SHOW US. And let's see all the injuries those throws cause (none).
SJ just posted a video of someone getting injured in judo. I already posted a video of a guy getting a savage beating in Sand da. He was landed on multiple times with throws

[Frost]

People who have never grappled usually think this.

i do wonder how much grappling he has done seeing as in addition to this he also thinks the 10second rule is good......, i mean the only people other than the organisorsw ho think its a s a good idea also dont have any idea about grappling

[Knifefighter]

You had to go to a humor page to get what are essentially anomalous takedowns in wrestling.

Um... no, they are all over the place. Here are a few more:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vitkRVl_qkc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RtbXeWvh8g&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BG7dihhLdiE&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMNPuPPfBfk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5M2hYbUdAMc&feature=related

[t_niehoff]

SJ just posted a video of someone getting injured in judo. I already posted a video of a guy getting a savage beating in Sand da. He was landed on multiple times with throws

Yes, so you each could find ONE. And as we've been saying, accidents happen. You found ONE. Out of how many videos involving throws? Tens of thousands?

[HumbleWCGuy]

BTW, here are those "soft" GR throws:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MA7355kfnoQ&feature=search

Like I said, you need a highlight real to make it seem brutal.

[Knifefighter]

SJ just posted a video of someone getting injured in judo. I already posted a video of a guy getting a savage beating in Sand da. He was landed on multiple times with throws

Do injuries from throws happen? Of course they do as you can see here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNeWFKX44tg

That being said, anyone who actually has done competitive grappling knows they are the exception, rather than the rule.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Yes, so you each could find ONE. And as we've been saying, accidents happen. You found ONE. Out of how many videos involving throws? Tens of thousands?

As I said landing on people builds up like body punches. It seems that you have finally accepted that fact because now you are trying to build up a straw man so that you can seem correct. It is hilarious really.

[m1k3]

HWC. do you even know what a suplex is?


As for your BJJ training did you get that from DVDs like certain so-called catch wrestlers around here? :rolleyes:

I don't think you ever set foot in a BJJ school or you wouldn't have referred to a purple belt as a low belt. H3ll a four stripe white belt will clean up 90% of the newbies no problem.

[t_niehoff]

As I said landing on people builds up like body punches. It seems that you have finally accepted that fact because now you are trying to build up a straw man so that you can seem correct. It is hilarious really.

Oh, NOW it's "they build up like body punches." How many pages in until we get that? LOL!

Bzzzt. Wrong. Again.

When will you stop making things up?

[Frost]

HWC

jesus you are an idiot, greco allows upper body throws, you know those like the suplex...only someone who has never grappled would argue any form of wrestling is soft on takedowns...i can sort of understand a non grappler ragging on BJJ takedowns because they dont understand the point scoring system....but calling wrestling takeodnws soft is just so ignorant its well:eek:

[HumbleWCGuy]

HWC. do you even know what a suplex is?
As for your BJJ training did you get that from DVDs like certain so-called catch wrestlers around here? :rolleyes:


I was thinking just the same thing about you and T both. There is really no reason to accept the fact you are anything but garaged trained white belts.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sure, it CAN (possibly) but most LIKELY won't.

Do you not understand how significant that is?



One problem is that most throws don't drop people on their heads.

And even when that does occur, it's not the "fight ender" people believe it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSGAtH8KqAg&feature=search

This is true, it is funny how these things work though.
Sometimes a throw that seems horrific doesn't do a think, remember Fedor being suplex on his head?
And other times a harmless looking throw can almost kill a guy.
Had a friend that was in the hospital for 2 weeks with a neck injury off a throw, freakiest thing.

Anyways.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Oh, NOW it's "they build up like body punches." How many pages in until we get that? LOL!

Bzzzt. Wrong. Again.

When will you stop making things up?

I said that from the get go. So T. I am starting to understand that you are really just a garage trainer.

[m1k3]

HWC

jesus you are an idiot, greco allows upper body throws, you know those like the suplex...only someone who has never grappled would argue any form of wrestling is soft on takedowns...i can sort of understand a non grappler ragging on BJJ takedowns because they dont understand the point scoring system....but calling wrestling takeodnws soft is just so ignorant its well:eek:

That's because he never wrestled or did BJJ. Except maybe from DVDs, in a Garage, where he went on to win the Arnold Classic! :eek:

[Knifefighter]

I said that from the get go. So T. I am starting to understand that you are really just a garage trainer.

LOL... this coming from the king of tape/garage trainers.

BTW, still waiting for those clips of all the brutal, injury provoking Sanda takedowns.

[HumbleWCGuy]

HWC

jesus you are an idiot, greco allows upper body throws, you know those like the suplex...only someone who has never grappled would argue any form of wrestling is soft on takedowns...i can sort of understand a non grappler ragging on BJJ takedowns because they dont understand the point scoring system....but calling wrestling takeodnws soft is just so ignorant its well:eek:

Any art has the potential to hit big takedowns that hurt. The issue is whether these hard takedowns really get hit a lot in the competitions. They do not in Bjj and Wrestling. End of story.

[HumbleWCGuy]

LOL... this coming from the king of tape/garage trainers.

BTW, still waiting for those clips of all the brutal, injury provoking Sanda takedowns.
Use your correspondence degree and find them in this thread.

[Knifefighter]

Any art has the potential to hit big takedowns that hurt. The issue is whether these hard takedowns really get hit a lot in the competitions. They do not in Bjj and Wrestling. End of story.

Neither do they in Sanda.

[HumbleWCGuy]

That's because he never wrestled or did BJJ. Except maybe from DVDs, in a Garage, where he went on to win the Arnold Classic! :eek:

I guess I struck never when I called you at for the garage trainer that you are.

[t_niehoff]

I said that from the get go. So T. I am starting to understand that you are really just a garage trainer.

Really. Why don't you point me to where you said that before in this thread?

Yeah, and is Dale really just a "garage trainer" too? Funny how he is agreeing with me -- and with everyone else who actually has experience grappling (and trains with a competent instructor). Only YOU seem to have a radically different POV.

But of course, everyone who actually trains BJJ or grappling, is wrong but YOU are right. It doesn't matter if all the videos in the world show that you are wrong.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Neither do they in Sanda. I guess? I just make junk up to talk because I am lonely.

Sure... whatever you say.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Really. Why don't you point me to where you said that before in this thread?

Yeah, and is Dale really just a "garage trainer" too? Funny how he is agreeing with me -- and with everyone else who actually has experience grappling (and trains with a competent instructor). Only YOU seem to have a radically different POV.

But of course, everyone who actually trains BJJ or grappling, is wrong but YOU are right. It doesn't matter if all the videos in the world show that you are wrong.
You hug Dale's nuts so hard that he will agree with most anything you say.

[Frost]

That's because he never wrestled or did BJJ. Except maybe from DVDs, in a Garage, where he went on to win the Arnold Classic! :eek:

why cant people just admit they dont know what they are talking about, saying any wrestling style has soft takedowns just shows you to be clueless

[Frost]

Any art has the potential to hit big takedowns that hurt. The issue is whether these hard takedowns really get hit a lot in the competitions. They do not in Bjj and Wrestling. End of story.

the same can be said about judo, most takedowns are trips or foot sweeps, especially at the higher levels.

[m1k3]

I guess I struck never when I called you at for the garage trainer that you are.

What???

:confused:

[t_niehoff]

You hug Dale's nuts so hard that he will agree with most anything you say.

Everyone who actually grapples, Dale, me, Mike, Frost, and even Paul, essentially agree. We could take this discussion over to mma.tv or sheredog and all the grapplers would agree with us. Why? Because ANYONE who actually grapples KNOWS. And that you don't, and that you say idiotic things like Greco has "soft" throws (you think that highlight reel was unique -- show us the clips with the soft throws), reveals you are have no experience and that you are clueless.

I am convinced that you are a complete fraud.

[Knifefighter]

BTW, one of the most common grappling injuries are tears of the medial meniscus that occur during takedowns and throws and often occur to the person attempting the throw.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Everyone who actually grapples, Dale, me, Mike, Frost, and even Paul, essentially agree. We could take this discussion over to mma.tv or sheredog and all the grapplers would agree with us. Why? Because ANYONE who actually grapples KNOWS. And that you don't, and that you say idiotic things like Greco has "soft" throws (you think that highlight reel was unique -- show us the clips with the soft throws), reveals you are have no experience and that you are clueless.

I am convinced that you are a complete fraud.

So paul agrees? After he said that he doesn't lol.

[sanjuro_ronin]

the same can be said about judo, most takedowns are trips or foot sweeps, especially at the higher levels.

Big time, very few skilled judoka will be so "rooted" as to get thrown.
:D

[HumbleWCGuy]

BTW, one of the most common grappling injuries are tears of the medial meniscus that occur during takedowns and throws and often occur to the person attempting the throw.

Do you have a reference that you can cite for that.

[sanjuro_ronin]

So paul agrees? After he said that he doesn't lol.

Dude, yes I agree with them, but I was always stating that they are under-evaluating the potential dangers of throws.
Maybe its the judoka in me, LOL !
The problem is that you three are too bust arguing with each other and not with your arguments.
Taking this way to personal with your insults and slide remarks.
Fact is, if your argument is sound, there is no need for insults or remarks.

[Frost]

Big time, very few skilled judoka will be so "rooted" as to get thrown.
:D

and the fact is all that grip fighting and lack of big throws can make high level judo really boring :)

[HumbleWCGuy]

I am convinced that you are a complete fraud.
Everyone on this board knows that you are a fraud. I can't remember the last time that you registered an intelligent opinion.

[sanjuro_ronin]

and the fact is all that grip fighting and lack of big throws can make high level judo really boring :)

They should put a time limit on THAT !

[HumbleWCGuy]

Dude, yes I agree with them, but I was always stating that they are under-evaluating the potential dangers of throws.
Maybe its the judoka in me, LOL !
The problem is that you three are too bust arguing with each other and not with your arguments.
Taking this way to personal with your insults and slide remarks.
Fact is, if your argument is sound, there is no need for insults or remarks.

You are fence riding. you don't want to say that you don't agree even though you don't

[Frost]

You are fence riding. you don't want to say that you don't agree even though you don't

can i ask, what grappling experience you have, not being funny but what experience are you using to conclude that some arts throw harder than others, and that 10 seconds on the floor is ok for non sport grappling needs

afterall you insulted Mik13and T about them being garage trained whitebelts (mike i know for a fact trains at a known MMA gym) so where does your knowledge come from?

[Knifefighter]

Do you have a reference that you can cite for that.
Use your correspondence degree and find them.

[Frost]

They should put a time limit on THAT !

or let people use what ever grip they like...and allow leg picks again lol :)

[Knifefighter]

You are fence riding. you don't want to say that you don't agree even though you don't

Actually, we all agree that throws have a potential for injury. We also agree that you can't count on them to be fight enders.

[t_niehoff]

Dude, yes I agree with them, but I was always stating that they are under-evaluating the potential dangers of throws.
Maybe its the judoka in me, LOL !
The problem is that you three are too bust arguing with each other and not with your arguments.
Taking this way to personal with your insults and slide remarks.
Fact is, if your argument is sound, there is no need for insults or remarks.

When people -- particularly when they are anonymous and won't provide details of their "training" -- "cite" personal experiences and/or training (like with Roy or 1.5 years in BJJ or being able to "win the takedown"
against trained grapplers, etc.) and then what they say is in direct opposition to not only my own experience but the experience of every other grappler that I know, then I believe that I am being lied to.

When ANYONE disregards the views of a BJJ BB (and if you have rolled with some, you will KNOW how awesome you need to be to earn one) about sub grappling or suggests it is "nuthugging" to take the views of someone with that experience/skill into account, then I have to think something is wrong with them.

When people disregard evidence and sound reasoning, then I know I'm not dealing with someone rational.

When all these things occur, what does that say?

[t_niehoff]

You are fence riding. you don't want to say that you don't agree even though you don't

He just came out and said explicitly that he DOES agree with us. How is that "fence riding"?

In case you missed it:

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1033336&postcount=145

[sanjuro_ronin]

You are fence riding. you don't want to say that you don't agree even though you don't

Nope, not fencing riding, doing what good and competent MA do, seeing BOTH SIDES of the argument based on THEIR experience.

[Frost]

Actually, we all agree that throws have a potential for injury. We also agree that you can't count on them to be fight enders.

that should end the arguement right there (of course this being KFM it wont but it should)

[sanjuro_ronin]

When people -- particularly when they are anonymous and won't provide details of their "training" -- "cite" personal experiences and/or training (like with Roy or 1.5 years in BJJ or being able to "win the takedown"
against trained grapplers, etc.) and then what they say is in direct opposition to not only my own experience but the experience of every other grappler that I know, then I believe that I am being lied to.

When ANYONE disregards the views of a BJJ BB (and if you have rolled with some, you will KNOW how awesome you need to be to earn one) about sub grappling or suggests it is "nuthugging" to take the views of someone with that experience/skill into account, then I have to think something is wrong with them.

When people disregard evidence and sound reasoning, then I know I'm not dealing with someone rational.

When all these things occur, what does that say?

When I first rolled with a BJJ guy, he was a blue, it was cool and a gave and take on the ground, I threw him easily ( I was a BB in judo already), purple was an eye opener and the Brown played with me, but I chalked it up to being gassed.
next session I had a 2nd BB and a 3rd BB to have fun with.
They made me their *****, LMAO !!!
It was a whole new world, beyong anything I had ever experienced and I had even some training closed doors with some Olympic level Judoka before that.
The ground, I learned that day, was NOT somewhere I wanted to be with a BJJ BB, period.

[Frost]

When I first rolled with a BJJ guy, he was a blue, it was cool and a gave and take on the ground, I threw him easily ( I was a BB in judo already), purple was an eye opener and the Brown played with me, but I chalked it up to being gassed.
next session I had a 2nd BB and a 3rd BB to have fun with.
They made me their *****, LMAO !!!
It was a whole new world, beyong anything I had ever experienced and I had even some training closed doors with some Olympic level Judoka before that.
The ground, I learned that day, was NOT somewhere I wanted to be with a BJJ BB, period.

lol Ive watched blackbelts like Braulio and john kavangh toy with guys i consider excellent grapplers and coaches ( and guys who themselves have tapped and beaten national level judo guys), and had a brown belt play with me and ask if i was ready to be tapped lol

High level BJJ guys on the ground just suck to play with :confused:

[t_niehoff]

When I first rolled with a BJJ guy, he was a blue, it was cool and a gave and take on the ground, I threw him easily ( I was a BB in judo already), purple was an eye opener and the Brown played with me, but I chalked it up to being gassed.
next session I had a 2nd BB and a 3rd BB to have fun with.
They made me their *****, LMAO !!!
It was a whole new world, beyong anything I had ever experienced and I had even some training closed doors with some Olympic level Judoka before that.
The ground, I learned that day, was NOT somewhere I wanted to be with a BJJ BB, period.

The very first time I rolled with a purple belt (as a newbie white), I had side control (he let me get it) and got submitted there! That same guy would let the white belts get RNCs or triangles or arm bars locked into before he started. Yes, eye-opening is a very good description.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Indeed guys, to me, and after discussing it with the 2 BB in question, Leo Santos and Wag Fabiano, I decided that, since I did not have the time to put into sort BJJ AND MMA, I went the route of MMA and developed, to the best degree I could, what I needed to NOT get taken down and survive the best I can IF taken down.
It was a question of catering and developing my strengths while trying to downplay as much as I could my weaknesses.
I think that if I wasn't naturally a striker, I probably would have become more GSP-like than more "Lidell-like".

[HumbleWCGuy]

that should end the arguement right there (of course this being KFM it wont but it should)

Agreed. I can live with that position.

[t_niehoff]

Agreed. I can live with that position.

Great!

Because that is exactly what I said two days ago!

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1032624&postcount=55

[HumbleWCGuy]

Actually, we all agree that throws have a potential for injury. We also agree that you can't count on them to be fight enders.

I agree with that. I was only making the point that the throws can be kind of punishing if you keep getting thrown and have to get up every 10 seconds.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Great!

Because that is exactly what I said two days ago!

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1032624&postcount=55

My point was slightly different in that if you work it right that landing on top can be punishing. The 10 second rule makes it suck for a person with no take down defense because of having to get back up constantly. You can create a personal highlight real off of one fight because there is so much opportunity for takedowns.

[Wayfaring]

So, we have 14 pages and have come to the conclusion that throws are consequential but not fight enders.

And that BJJ BB's have skill on the ground.

We are really making headway on critical issues here people. :rolleyes:

The sky is .....gasp..... STILL BLUE.

But we do have a recommendation for Phil's guys that run the little smoker to extend the ground portion to 30 sec at least.

And, of course, we do have THE DRAMA. We always have that.

[sanjuro_ronin]

So, we have 14 pages and have come to the conclusion that throws are consequential but not fight enders.

And that BJJ BB's have skill on the ground.

We are really making headway on critical issues here people. :rolleyes:

The sky is .....gasp..... STILL BLUE.

But we do have a recommendation for Phil's guys that run the little smoker to extend the ground portion to 30 sec at least.

And, of course, we do have THE DRAMA. We always have that.

The WC forums haven't been this lively since someone realized that Bong has another meaning, LOL !

[m1k3]

HWC has one point that I'll agree with on how much it sucks to be taken down over and over if you have no grappling background.

Another thing, I rolled with a complete noob a couple of weeks ago and he was tapping to stuff that wasn't even submissions. For example we were starting our rolling with one person in half guard, I put him in lockdown to set up the whip out and probably an old school sweep when he tapped.

People who grapple on a regular basis are used to dealing with pain andnon-grapplers aren't. You're also used to knowing the difference between pain that hurts, deal with it, and pain that hurts and is dangerous like my elbow is going to pop.

[Wayfaring]

HWC has one point that I'll agree with on how much it sucks to be taken down over and over if you have no grappling background.


It sucks even when you do have a grappling background

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJFtlvxooiM

[t_niehoff]

HWC has one point that I'll agree with on how much it sucks to be taken down over and over if you have no grappling background.


Or, to generalize, it sucks to be out of condition (which doesn't mean just cardio but used to taking punishment). This is true for every aspect of fighting.



Another thing, I rolled with a complete noob a couple of weeks ago and he was tapping to stuff that wasn't even submissions. For example we were starting our rolling with one person in half guard, I put him in lockdown to set up the whip out and probably an old school sweep when he tapped.

People who grapple on a regular basis are used to dealing with pain andnon-grapplers aren't. You're also used to knowing the difference between pain that hurts, deal with it, and pain that hurts and is dangerous like my elbow is going to pop.

Agreed.

Nongrapplers have no idea.

I have even seen newbies panic (a claustrophobia sort of thing) -- and actually tap -- because they were having trouble breathing (because you were mounted on them or had them in an awkward position).

[Dave McKinnon]

T' responded to this post:

Roy Harris was hitting the JKD circuit showing people his grappling and he was getting some of the same treatment. Sure he would eventually tap out everybody but only after it was kind of evident that there was a flaw in the sport mentality and how grappling was being presented to guys with a street mind set.


With this:
"Street mindset" means fantasy mindset (how I imagine a fight will be).

Have to disagree here. I have trained with the man and am one of his instructors. I have to say his striking, BJJ and knife fighting are top notch. A consummate martial artist if ever I have met one and one who has had to play dirty with challengers (biting, ball grabbing, people pulling knives on him etc) at seminars and on the streets as a law officer.

But I agree most "street stuff" if full of stuff!

Dave McKinnon

[Violent Designs]

After being away from this forum for half a year it's good to see that my signature is still relevant as ever.

Carry on folks.

[HumbleWCGuy]

HWC has one point that I'll agree with on how much it sucks to be taken down over and over if you have no grappling background.

Compete in a San Da tournament and get back with me on that one.

[k gledhill]

After being away from this forum for half a year it's good to see that my signature is still relevant as ever.

Carry on folks.

:D you missed, "you confused your possessive with a contractive, you suck " and " the apostrophe goes here, not there,.. so you suck". :D

[HumbleWCGuy]

The irony of this thread is that T., Mike?, and Dale fought tooth and nail to minimize the amount of damage that a throws can cause and as soon as I said that wrestling throws weren't as rough as Judo throws they immediately posted videos showing me how devastating throws are. Thus they ended up providing evidence to support my initial case.

This calls into question the motivation of your posts and their accuracy.

[HumbleWCGuy]

T' responded to this post:

Roy Harris was hitting the JKD circuit showing people his grappling and he was getting some of the same treatment. Sure he would eventually tap out everybody but only after it was kind of evident that there was a flaw in the sport mentality and how grappling was being presented to guys with a street mind set.


With this:
"Street mindset" means fantasy mindset (how I imagine a fight will be).

Have to disagree here. I have trained with the man and am one of his instructors. I have to say his striking, BJJ and knife fighting are top notch. A consummate martial artist if ever I have met one and one who has had to play dirty with challengers (biting, ball grabbing, people pulling knives on him etc) at seminars and on the streets as a law officer.

But I agree most "street stuff" if full of stuff!

Dave McKinnon

That's far worse than anything that I had heard.... Wow! My buddies said that Roy would usually just crank an armbar a little hard when he would get one. He should have gotten a bit dirtier because I think that people might have been left with a misconception about how well they could perform those "deadly techniques" if Roy had just taken it to them from the beginning.

[Wayfaring]

That's far worse than anything that I had heard.... Wow! My buddies said that Roy would usually just crank an armbar a little hard when he would get one. He should have gotten a bit dirtier because I think that people might have been left with a misconception about how well they could perform those "deadly techniques" if Roy had just taken it to them from the beginning.

Roy Harris was an early non-Brazilian black belt, and navigating those waters was not a small feat. From what I have seen he is solid technically, has moral character, and trains realistically. His association is top notch, even when you make the adjustments for McKinnon being in it. (Just kidding Dave :D)

[HumbleWCGuy]

Roy Harris was an early non-Brazilian black belt, and navigating those waters was not a small feat. From what I have seen he is solid technically, has moral character, and trains realistically. His association is top notch, even when you make the adjustments for McKinnon being in it. (Just kidding Dave :D)

Everything that I have every heard about Roy is that he is a high-character guy. It calls it is in contrast to the fraudulent picture that some are trying to paint of him in this thread.

[Knifefighter]

That's far worse than anything that I had heard.... Wow! My buddies said that Roy would usually just crank an armbar a little hard when he would get one. He should have gotten a bit dirtier because I think that people might have been left with a misconception about how well they could perform those "deadly techniques" if Roy had just taken it to them from the beginning.

Yeah clueless people like this:

Guys were eager to show me their grappling. I would win the take down get on top and rake their eyes and put my hand on their throats to demonstrate other bad things that could happen. Eventually, they might get me to tap but it was kind of inconsequental.

[Knifefighter]

Everything that I have every heard about Roy is that he is a high-character guy. It calls it is in contrast to the fraudulent picture that some are trying to paint of him in this thread.

It sure must be tough trying to remember which story you made up:


Roy Harris was hitting the JKD circuit showing people his grappling and he was getting some of the same treatment. Sure he would eventually tap out everybody but only after it was kind of evident that there was a flaw in the sport mentality and how grappling was being presented to guys with a street mind set. So here was a BJJ black belt who was going around and grappling people who really didn't know the etiquette and he wasn't defending his eyes and throat effectively on the bottom so it begs the question about how much time is needed on the ground in a high-stakes scenario.

[t_niehoff]

The irony of this thread is that T., Mike?, and Dale fought tooth and nail to minimize the amount of damage that a throws can cause


Either you are a liar, stupid, or both.

We were trying to explain to you that throws hardly ever cause damage -- which is why you can find tens of thousands of videos of throws with no injury and a few with injury, and why you can't find ONE in MMA where a throw caused injury -- even though accidents happen (rarely) and results in injury. All the EVIDENCE proves this.



and as soon as I said that wrestling throws weren't as rough as Judo throws they immediately posted videos showing me how devastating throws are. Thus they ended up providing evidence to support my initial case.


No. Once again, you are either lying, stupid, or both. You said GR throws were soft. You were, characteristically, WRONG. We showed you the evidence that you were wrong. And this evidence didn't support your "initial case", it refuted it -- just as all the evidence does. Even though GR throws aren't "soft", injuries are accidental and rare.

And, your "initial case" wasn't that repeated throws can take some toll -- you never said that. You shifted to that after your initial claim (about throws causing injuries) was soundly refuted.



This calls into question the motivation of your posts and their accuracy.

No, it calls into question whether you are just a liar trying to save face or preserve his fantasy of knowing what he is talking about or you are stupid or both. My bet is both.

My motivation in this thread was to point out to Phil that a 10 second-rule makes grappling inconsequential. Every single experienced grappler agrees. You didn't. What a surprise. You interjected yourself into that discussion with the "insights" of someone who demonstrated has not significant experience grappling. You tried to support your views with lies, fake stories, etc. You were even so dense as to believe Paul was supporting your view when he expressly disagreed with it. Now you are trying to rewrite the history of the discussion in your favor.

[t_niehoff]

Everything that I have every heard about Roy is that he is a high-character guy. It calls it is in contrast to the fraudulent picture that some are trying to paint of him in this thread.

The only person trying to do that was YOU.

[HumbleWCGuy]

The only person trying to do that was YOU.

Yet, his student gets on here and confirms my story. What losers you are. LOL

[HumbleWCGuy]

Yeah clueless people like this:

Yup, I was definitely clueless at that time. If you weren't so dumb, you would understand that, that was partially what the post was about. Myself and other were not indoctrinated into that style of training so we used techniques that we shouldn't have and people who did that style of training were so indoctrinated into that culture of training that they failed to frame it to us or more or less allowed things to happen that shouldn't have. Finally, I concluded by saying that a 10 second rule might be useful for people to break out of that polite grappling mindset.

[m1k3]

Yet, his student gets on here and confirms my story. What losers you are. LOL

Ok, the points being made as I see them.

1. 10 seconds of grappling is not long enough.

2. Throws and takedowns can hurt but usually aren't fight enders except for non-grappling weenies.

3. HWC has yet to verify his grappling background other than by stories that have been refuted by all the grapplers posting here.

4. HWC thinks he can be in someones guard and claw their eyes without getting his arm broke.

5. HWC thinks people who don't grapple used dirty tactics against a BJJ BB successfully.

6. HWC is obviously deluded.


I think that covers all the grappling material. If I missed anything feel free to add to it.

HWC, any additional grappling delusions would be appreciated. Ignorance can be so entertaining.

[m1k3]

Compete in a San Da tournament and get back with me on that one. :rolleyes:

Except for the striking part of that I wouldn't be that concerned. I am used to throwing and being thrown, working takedowns both offense and defense, have decent base (rooting) and understand grip hand fighting. In other words the throwing portion of the fight would be right up my alley. On the other hand the punching and kicking would suck. :D

[HumbleWCGuy]

Mnovice,
stop making up stories.

[t_niehoff]

Yet, his student gets on here and confirms my story. What losers you are. LOL

You must be a complete and utter idiot. He did not "confirm your story."

Your "story" was:

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1033260&postcount=94

"Roy Harris was a judo champ who was content to go out and lay on his back and get poked in the eye." THAT is YOUR STORY.

Dale responded with:

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1033267&postcount=96

"I've trained with Roy several times. He was a JKD/Kali guy who was also a cop. If anyone was aware of the problems with "just grappling for sport" it was Roy. Roy was also a student of Vunak who is a big proponent of biting on the ground."

Dave, in his post that you cite as supporting you, actually is corroborating Dale:

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1033456&postcount=209

"I have trained with the man and am one of his instructors. I have to say his striking, BJJ and knife fighting are top notch. A consummate martial artist if ever I have met one and one who has had to play dirty with challengers (biting, ball grabbing, people pulling knives on him etc) at seminars and on the streets as a law officer."

Dave is NOT saying that Roy "was content to go out and lay on his back and get poked in the eye" (YOUR STORY). But that he was able to deal with these people who tried things like that.

And guess what -- every BJJ practitioner LEARNS to deal with people like that. It's no BFD.

As I told you, it takes skill to beat skill. A BETTER grappler can use foul tactics successfully, but they will be useless if you don't have the grappling skill base to begin with. Guess where that grappling skill base comes from? Sport.

This is just like when you thought Paul was agreeing with you when he was saying the exact opposite!

[HumbleWCGuy]

:rolleyes:

Except for the striking part of that I wouldn't be that concerned. I am used to throwing and being thrown, working takedowns both offense and defense, have decent base (rooting) and understand grip hand fighting. In other words the throwing portion of the fight would be right up my alley. On the other hand the punching and kicking would suck. :D

Have you ever competed?

[m1k3]

Mnovice,
stop making up stories.

I've provided a link to where I train grappling why don't you do the same. Also you could get in touch with the Pennsylvania Interscholastic Athletic Association to get my high school wrestling record. I wrestled 1970 and 1971.

How about you larper(grappling)?

[HumbleWCGuy]

Hey T?

Are you afraid to drive through the park since your were challenged and declined? lol

[HumbleWCGuy]

I've provided a link to where I train grappling why don't you do the same. Also you could get in touch with the Pennsylvania Interscholastic Athletic Association to get my high school wrestling record. I wrestled 1970 and 1971.

How about you larper(grappling)?

What does that really mean? You put up a link. I can grab a random link off of the net. I don't see you training there. Without actually working with you that link means nothing.

[HumbleWCGuy]

You must be a complete and utter idiot. He did not "confirm your story."

Your "story" was:

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1033260&postcount=94

"Roy Harris was a judo champ who was content to go out and lay on his back and get poked in the eye." THAT is YOUR STORY.

Dale responded with:

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1033267&postcount=96

"I've trained with Roy several times. He was a JKD/Kali guy who was also a cop. If anyone was aware of the problems with "just grappling for sport" it was Roy. Roy was also a student of Vunak who is a big proponent of biting on the ground."

Dave, in his post that you cite as supporting you, actually is corroborating Dale:

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1033456&postcount=209

"I have trained with the man and am one of his instructors. I have to say his striking, BJJ and knife fighting are top notch. A consummate martial artist if ever I have met one and one who has had to play dirty with challengers (biting, ball grabbing, people pulling knives on him etc) at seminars and on the streets as a law officer."

Dave is NOT saying that Roy "was content to go out and lay on his back and get poked in the eye" (YOUR STORY). But that he was able to deal with these people who tried things like that.

And guess what -- every BJJ practitioner LEARNS to deal with people like that. It's no BFD.

As I told you, it takes skill to beat skill. A BETTER grappler can use foul tactics successfully, but they will be useless if you don't have the grappling skill base to begin with. Guess where that grappling skill base comes from? Sport.

This is just like when you thought Paul was agreeing with you when he was saying the exact opposite!

Interestingly his student read both our comments and chose to take issue with yours. LOL

[t_niehoff]

Hey T?

Are you afraid to drive through the park since your were challenged and declined? lol

What a brilliant retort! Particularly coming from someone who is afraid to tell anyone his name or who he learned WCK from or any other details of his alleged training.

Yeah, I guess I really should just go break the law to prove something to people who are afraid to step into a gym or use their real names. I can see why it makes no sense to people like you and Yoshi why anyone would want to spar at a facility designed for that, where it is legal, where it is much less likely that people will do stupid things after they are soundly beaten, etc.

[t_niehoff]

Interestingly his student read both our comments and chose to take issue with yours. LOL

He took issue with my associating ALL "street mentality" with fantasy. Once again, you prove you are either a liar, stupid, or both.

BTW, I consider Dave a good friend and a training brother. I respect HIS views as he has trained BJJ and WCK. Whereas YOU have done neither.

[HumbleWCGuy]

He took issue with my associating ALL "street mentality" with fantasy. Once again, you prove you are either a liar, stupid, or both.

BTW, I consider Dave a good friend and a training brother. I respect HIS views as he has trained BJJ and WCK. Whereas YOU have done neither.

Says the laughing stock of the Wing Chun board. LOL.

[HumbleWCGuy]

What a brilliant retort! Particularly coming from someone who is afraid to tell anyone his name or who he learned WCK from or any other details of his alleged training.

Yeah, I guess I really should just go break the law to prove something to people who are afraid to step into a gym or use their real names. I can see why it makes no sense to people like you and Yoshi why anyone would want to spar at a facility designed for that, where it is legal, where it is much less likely that people will do stupid things after they are soundly beaten, etc.

Would you show me this law that you would be breaking. It sounds like a lot of excuses.

[HumbleWCGuy]

He took issue with my associating ALL "street mentality" with fantasy. Once again, you prove you are either a liar, stupid, or both.

BTW, I consider Dave a good friend and a training brother. I respect HIS views as he has trained BJJ and WCK. Whereas YOU have done neither.

Nobody respects you so

[m1k3]

HWC, I've started posting the link here and some other forums because its a really good school and its a way that I can help promote it. I'm not really a novice, more like low end intermediate.

Now, tell me a little about your grappling background like where you studied BJJ.

See, no nasty comments, lets try talking like adults. :)

[t_niehoff]

Says the laughing stock of the Wing Chun board. LOL.

Hmmm, I would have thought the "laughing stock" was the anonymous troll who is afraid to tell anyone his name or who he learned WCK from or anything else about his training, and who makes up stories about being a competitive kickboxer but again won't provide any details, and who makes up stories ("Roy Harris was a judo champ who was content to go out and lay on his back and get poked in the eye.") to support his mistaken views, who doesn't train grappling but argues about it with people (including BJJ BBs) who do, etc. That last thing -- who doesn't do it but argues about it with people who do -- pretty much sums you up.

And that's why you won't provide your name, who/where you've trained, etc. as it would expose the fact that you don't do it.

[HumbleWCGuy]

He took issue with my associating ALL "street mentality" with fantasy. Once again, you prove you are either a liar, stupid, or both.

BTW, I consider Dave a good friend and a training brother. I respect HIS views as he has trained BJJ and WCK. Whereas YOU have done neither.

Either way Roy didn't watch himself and got poked in the eye and a myriad of other ridiculous nonsense that Dave confirmed.

[m1k3]

Either way Roy didn't watch himself and got poked in the eye and a myriad of other ridiculous nonsense that Dave confirmed.

David, would you care to step in on this? I would really like to hear what you have to say.

To be honest I can't see that sort of stuff being pulled off by non-grapplers even against purple belts.

[HumbleWCGuy]

HWC, I've started posting the link here and some other forums because its a really good school and its a way that I can help promote it. I'm not really a novice, more like low end intermediate.

Now, tell me a little about your grappling background like where you studied BJJ.

See, no nasty comments, lets try talking like adults. :)


My buddy was a purple under Marcello Montiero. I worked with him for about a year all told off and on. He wasn't under Marcello during that entire time. I worked out of here for about 3 or 4 months http://mmadayton.com/index.html.

[t_niehoff]

Would you show me this law that you would be breaking. It sounds like a lot of excuses.

I'm a lawyer and an ex-prosecutor. It is an explicit violation of the Peace Disturbance statute to fight/spar in public parks (the statute actually mentions striking someone in a public park as one of the violations of the statute).

15.46.030 Disturbing the peace.

Any person who shall disturb the peace of others by noisy, riotous or disorderly conduct, or by violent, tumultuous, of-fensive or obstreperous conduct or carriage, or by loud and unusual noises, or by unseemly, profane, obscene, indecent, lewd or offensive language, calculated to provoke a breach of the peace, or by assaulting, striking or fighting another in any park, street, alley, highway, thoroughfare, public place or public resort within the City, or any person who, in the City, shall permit any such conduct in or upon any house or premises owned or possessed by him or under his management or control, so that others in the vicinity are disturbed thereby, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor. (1948 C. Ch. 46 § 20: 1960 C. §§ 762.030, 762.040.)


There are proper venues for people who want to spar.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I'm a lawyer and an ex-prosecutor. It is an explicit violation of the Peace Disturbance statute to fight/spar in public parks (the statute actually mentions striking someone in a public park as one of the violations of the statute).

15.46.030 Disturbing the peace.

Any person who shall disturb the peace of others by noisy, riotous or disorderly conduct, or by violent, tumultuous, of-fensive or obstreperous conduct or carriage, or by loud and unusual noises, or by unseemly, profane, obscene, indecent, lewd or offensive language, calculated to provoke a breach of the peace, or by assaulting, striking or fighting another in any park, street, alley, highway, thoroughfare, public place or public resort within the City, or any person who, in the City, shall permit any such conduct in or upon any house or premises owned or possessed by him or under his management or control, so that others in the vicinity are disturbed thereby, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor. (1948 C. Ch. 46 § 20: 1960 C. §§ 762.030, 762.040.)


There are proper venues for people who want to spar.

I wonder what the case law says on this because you are a bit of a liar so in some sense I suppose that this law would be something to be concerned about. However, I wonder how the courts have interpreted it.

Also, it seems for the law to be breached someone has to disturbed by the activity.

Although I will agree. Just meet at the YMCA or something.

[m1k3]

My buddy was a purple under Marcello Montiero. I worked with him for about a year all told off and on. He wasn't under Marcello during that entire time. I worked out of here for about 3 or 4 months http://mmadayton.com/index.html.

Ok, you have some background in grappling. What I don't understand then is why you post some of the things you do other than you like pulling people's chains.

[t_niehoff]

I wonder what the case law says on this because you are a bit of a liar so in some sense I suppose that this law would be something to be concerned about. However, I wonder how the courts have interpreted it.

F#ck you.

I don't lie -- unlike you. I don't say things like "Roy Harris was a judo champ who was content to go out and lay on his back and get poked in the eye."

I tell you fighting/sparring in parks is against the law because it is. I provide the law. Now you are still trying to squirm.

Only idiots would spar in a park. Not only is it against the law, but it is asking for trouble. It can lead to bad things happening, from the contestants, their buddies, other people in the park who may interfere, etc. It's just an all-around really bad, stupid idea. One which, I'm not surprised, you would endorse since you seem to have all kinds of really bad, stupid ideas.

[t_niehoff]

Ok, you have some background in grappling. What I don't understand then is why you post some of the things you do other than you like pulling people's chains.

No he doesn't. He's lying.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Ok, you have some background in grappling. What I don't understand then is why you post some of the things you do other than you like pulling people's chains.

I think that people just misunderstand my points or are hyper sensitive. I like grappling. I wish that my schedule would permit me to learn more. My grappling buddies and I talk a lot about how they have to guard against the "sport mentality." I think that it is because my art carries the label of traditional that people can't take my criticisms.

Edit:
The same is true for Upright arts. You can only Kickbox so long before you have to train some other things like basic self-defense, eye jabs, groin kicks, and so on.

[HumbleWCGuy]

F#ck you.

I don't lie -- unlike you. I don't say things like "Roy Harris was a judo champ who was content to go out and lay on his back and get poked in the eye."

I tell you fighting/sparring in parks is against the law because it is. I provide the law. Now you are still trying to squirm.

Only idiots would spar in a park. Not only is it against the law, but it is asking for trouble. It can lead to bad things happening, from the contestants, their buddies, other people in the park who may interfere, etc. It's just an all-around really bad, stupid idea. One which, I'm not surprised, you would endorse since you seem to have all kinds of really bad, stupid ideas.

I was thinking of calling you the Cowardly Lion and Dale the Scarecrow. I don't have any good candidates for Dorthy, Toto, or the Tin Man. I am sure that they will emerge.

[t_niehoff]

I was thinking of calling you the Cowardly Lion and Dale the Scarecrow. I don't have any good candidates for Dorthy, Toto, or the Tin Man. I am sure that they will emerge.

Another of your "brilliant" ideas. Worthy of your intellectual standard.

[m1k3]

My grappling buddies and I talk a lot about how they have to guard against the "sport mentality."

Edit:
The same is true for Upright arts. You can only Kickbox so long before you have to train some other things like basic self-defense, eye jabs, groin kicks, and so on.

What is a sports mentality? Training hard against people who training hard to win? Using proven, high percentage techniques that can be trained full speed against non-cooperative opponents? Training to go against other people who are also well trained?

And how do you train things like groin kicks and eye jabs in a non-cooperative, full contact environment?

Too much of the self defense training is targeted to people who are out of shape, soft, fearful and looking for a silver bullet that will make them dangerous without having to work hard.

So they are sold eye gouges, throat strikes, hair pulling and other such nonsense. If you can't do the basics the dirt won't work either.

When noobs come in to grapple they are gassed in 30 seconds, panicked about having someone on top of them and flail about wildly. All the eye pokes in the world won't save them.

If you want to be dangerous without working hard buy a gun.