Profound respect for Si Kwok Lam and Yip Chun, re: Yuen Kay San

[reneritchie]

Classy and hopefully it'll receive proper coverage in the rest of the world, in all languages. Sad it couldn't happen before Sum Nung passed away though:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ash3CY-9Ovo

>Wing Chun master Si Kwok Lam and Yip Chun co-produced movie "Yip man", who had apologized 6 times and "served Tea" to Yuen Kay San's grandson(left in picture, wearing glasses) for misrepresenting and disrespectful to the Lengendary death dual champion during 1920-1950s during a news conference in China, Mr. Si and Yip admitted in front of documents and witness that Yuen Kay San represented Wing Chun family and answer all the public death duals in Foshan in those years, he is senior to Yipman in the Wing Chun family tree.

>Mr. Xi Kwok Lam (Yip Man’s son’s student and movie producer of the Ip Man 3) apologized and served tea to Yuen Jo Tong for misreprensenting his grandfather Yuen Kay San’s reputation and status in Wing Chun history. (In the movie, Yuen Kay San was portrayed as Yip Man’s younger Kung Fu brother, not as skillfull as Yipman)[9].

>Three Heroes of Wing Chun

>Yao Wing Ken (Yoa Choy’s grandson) explains that, "in the old days of Foshan, his grandfather Yao Choy, Yip Man and Yuen Kay San were called the "Three Heroes of Wing Chun" and often mentioned together. Yuen Kay San's disciple Leung Jan Sing also provided an ancestral document indicating that Yuen Kay San studied with Feng Shui Ching, while Yipman and others studied under Yuen. This record was passed down in the 70's of last century. Although Yip Man is not necessarily Yuen’s official student, in the order of seniority on the family tree, Yuen Kay San ranked at the first level, with Yip Man being last. It would be normal for Yip Man to ask Yuen Kay San for instruction.
Below is the original Chinese quoted from the original article in the Dayoo Newspaper of Guangzhou:

还原历史： 　　“咏春三雄”齐名 　 　姚永强介绍，当年在佛山，他的爷爷姚才与叶问、阮奇山并称“咏春三雄”，三人齐名，武功不相上下。阮奇山 的徒孙梁湛声还提供了祖传的记录，记录上写明， 阮奇山师从冯少青，而叶问与其他多个咏春武者一同在阮奇山的门下。“这本记录是上世纪70年代 留下的， 这也不能说叶问是他的徒弟，但论资历，阮奇山排第 一，叶问最后，叶问向他请教很正常。


^ "冼国林向阮祖棠斟茶道 (Xi Kwok Lam serves tea to Yuen Jo Tong)". Yang Sing National Newspaper (China). 2010. Retrieved 2010-07-16.
^ "还原历史： (Restore History)". Dayoo Newspaper (Guangzhou, China). 2010. Retrieved 2010-07-18.

[t_niehoff]

Classy and hopefully it'll receive proper coverage in the rest of the world, in all languages. Sad it couldn't happen before Sum Nung passed away though:


Yes, it is classy, but I think it will get very little if any coverage, and will be -- like most genuine and accurate historical facts about WCK -- disregarded by most (like it has been here).

[Pacman]

its important to know though. in the movie they made yuen kay san look like sh!t
its not about putting yip man down, its about giving yuen kay san his proper respect

in the KF museum in foshan (like a hall of fame), sum nung and yuen kay san are there, based on their accomplishments. yip man is not. yip man only became famous after bruce lee became famous. not even people like wong fei hong were admitted. only after the "once upon a time in china" movies came out, did wong fei hong's students petition for him to be there

yuen kay san would fight these matches and tell the historian au sui jee to give credit to leung jan because he did not want to attract attention to himself and his family. as a result, leung jan gained a lot of notoriety.

the "3 heroes of wing chun" title did not exist at the time yuen kay san was alive. this came later and yuen kay san's grandson actually accepted it because he wanted to ride some of bruce lee's fame too.

in guangdong the perspective of WC is very different

[Shadow_warrior8]

　羊城晚报记者 李丽

　　在电影《叶问前传》中，姚才和“小山”（被阮氏后人认为是影射阮奇山）被一帮日本人打倒，最后叶问赶到 ，横扫了日本人。这个情节被阮氏后人和姚氏后人认为有“诽谤嫌疑”，并向剧组提出抗议。昨日中午，羊城晚报 记者受邀前去见证《叶问前传》剧组来广州向阮奇山咏春派和姚才咏春派道歉。没想到，道歉会还没正式开始，双 方就再起争执，甚至差点开打！

　　时间：11:45

　　两派发声明指“侵权”

　　记者受邀于当日11时到海珠区某酒家会面，首先到场的是一些阮氏弟子，之后阮祖棠抵达。阮祖棠表示，电 影《叶问前传》以及同名漫画和小说对“咏春三雄”中姚才和阮奇山两位人物的形象进行了诋毁，并出示了他们拟 定的最新声明。这份名为《阮奇山咏春宗派、姚才咏春宗派关于对<叶问前传>伪造历史侵害名誉权的第二号联合声明》，对电影《叶问前传》制片人冼国林此前在媒体上关于双方纷争的几点解 释，譬如“电影上映后在海内外提高了姚才和阮奇山的知名度”等等，一一作出了批驳，并指出《叶问前传》涉及 总共六项侵权行为，包括电影、小说和漫画《叶问前传》未经授权委托，盗用阮奇山、姚才姓名权用于商业行为； 电影、小说和漫画《叶问前传》在没有事实依据的情况下，对阮奇山、姚才进行贬损性、侮辱性描述，丑化其外在 形象，构成名誉损害。

　　时间：12:30

　　神秘老外激怒阮祖棠

　　电影《叶问前传》制片人冼国林一行按邀约时间，准点到达酒家，来到阮祖棠和弟子们所在房间的隔壁落座。 同行的还有从香港赶来的叶问之子叶准，以及佛山精武体育会会长梁旭辉———他在《叶问前传》中饰演当年的佛 山精武体育会会长李万豪。阮祖棠带记者们去隔壁房间跟对方会面，临行前他跟记者说，自己跟叶准还是第一次见 面，“我会在跟他握手的时候跟他说：‘没想到第一次见面是在这样的场合，我非常遗憾，也觉得很苦涩。’”没 想到还没入座，阮祖棠就突然猛击桌面玻璃，大声发飙：“这些人是打手吗？！”记者这才注意到，门口有五六位 年轻健壮的男老外，均双手放在背后齐齐站立。阮祖棠情绪激动地要求这些人出去，并喊来服务员关门，禁止让“ 闲杂人等”入内。

　　时间：12:40

　　老叶准劝阻双方干架

　　阮祖棠继续质疑几位神秘老外的来历，指对方“像黑社会”。冼国林尴尬解释，这是他师叔的弟子，而他们的 到来是为了见他以及商量《叶问4》的拍摄（冼国林称，他正积极筹拍《叶问4》，并想邀请梁朝伟担纲）。他说 自己并未授意这些老外进入房间，更非如阮祖棠所怀疑的那样，是他带来的“打手”，甚至表示“你可以检查我们 的火车票”。但阮祖棠表示不信，冼国林遂对天发誓：“如果我撒谎，就不得好死！”由于双方情绪激动，言辞激 烈，冼国林一度起身说：“我们走！”但被剧组其他人员劝阻。争吵中，阮祖棠及弟子与冼国林之间的距离逐渐拉 近，双方都摆开了动武的架势。此时，一直默默坐着的叶准迅速站起，及时拉住了冼国林，而另一边的姚氏后人则 劝阻了阮祖棠。阮祖棠稍微平静下来后，回头向身后的电视台记者们表示：“这段你们可以播出街！ ”

　　时间：13:00

　　冼国林低头斟茶认错

　　之后，双方进行了一个小时的“磋商”，但火药味未消。冼国林表示，在《叶问前传》中加入阮、姚两位前辈 的角色是考虑到弘扬咏春，不想只表现叶问一个人，但结果“好心办坏事”。对此，阮祖棠反驳：“《叶问前传》 确实让全世界都认识了阮奇山和姚才这两个人，但也让全世界都认识了阮奇山和姚才这两个‘仆街’！”意指电影 和小说、漫画传播的是两人“不堪一击”的恶名。对此，冼国林表示，电影中的设计纯属“无心之失”：“我希望 各门派都能互容互谅，互相尊重。我这次是诚心来道歉，你这么德高望重，有没有包容别人犯错的肚量？”之后举 杯向阮祖棠认错：“希望你大人大量，原谅我们。”之后，又向姚氏后人敬茶。

　　时间：14:00

　　阮祖棠要求更多“诚意”

　　虽然冼国林道了歉，但阮祖棠还是认为对方诚意不够，并一再强调自己的祖父阮奇山在武林的地位。冼国林承 认：“两位前辈是和我们师公（指叶问）齐名的，并称‘咏春三雄’。是我做错了，没理解他人的感受。”其间， 叶准表示，他之所以来，是因为叶、阮、姚三家是世交，“既然上一代都是好朋友，我不希望今天大家闹得不愉快 ，希望能基于前辈的感情，好好处理这件事”。

　　有记者问阮祖棠除了指出对方侵权外，还想“点算（怎么办）”。他表示：“现在电影还在发行，侵权还在继 续。既然他们知道错了，‘点算’应该由他们自己去想！”冼国林表示，他会考虑在更多的地方发表道歉声明，“ 只是现在我都道歉不下五次了，不知道还能怎么做”。另外，漫画方面是否能登道歉启事，他无法决定，还须去沟 通。姚氏后人则表示，自己跟冼国林等人向来关系尚好，他们暂只提出道歉声明能否在佛山当地电视台播出的要求 。

　　李丽

http://news.qq.com/a/20100715/001464.htm

[Shadow_warrior8]

This is the second article in entirely
http://culture.china.com.cn/lishi/2010-07/08/content_20450101.htm

The old pictures of Master Yuen and Master Yiu Choi were fantastic
Description of Master Yiu
世居佛山普君墟安天坊，腕力惊人，人称“大力才”。
Description of Master Yuen
将咏春门的拳、桩、刀、棍等功技集一身，人称“佛山阮老揸”。

This tea offering was a gracious gesture, because the 3 men were heros and had good relations.

影片出品人回应称片中两前辈形象是正义的，并无污蔑宗师之意

电影《叶问前传》目前正在火爆上映，“咏春拳”再次家喻户晓。广东武术名家叶问也再度被搬上银幕，但电影中 姚才、阮奇山这两位叶问师兄弟成了“反面陪衬”，引起广佛两地阮氏、姚氏后人的一致声讨。昨日，电影中姚才 、阮奇山的嫡系传人向本报记者发表声明，怒斥电影把“咏春三雄”之中的一代宗师姚才、阮奇山丑化成不堪一击 的小混混，诋毁先师形象，在国内外咏春学界都引起震动。他们要求剧组公开道歉，恢复先师名誉，否则将与对方 对簿公堂。对此，该电影出品人冼国林则回应称：“这是好心做坏事，我只是想向全世界推广咏春三 雄。”

电影回放：姚才、“小山”两三下被击败

随着电影《叶问前传》的热映，广州、佛山两地近10万名阮氏、姚氏后人和徒孙却再也坐不住了。

电影开端，“咏春三雄”出现在叶问与妻子张永成的邂逅之地，当时一位大爷想侮辱张永成，叶问与姚才、小山挺 身而出，把坏人打得落花流水。张永成问几人的姓名，姚才、小山称“我们都是佛山咏春派，你可以叫我们‘咏春 三雄’。”

引发争议的是电影末段，大师兄吴仲素带领着两位师弟姚才、小山，前往桑园，企图找出杀害精武会会长的凶手叶 天赐，阮奇山与姚才发现一群师兄妹被捆绑在房间内，正欲打救之时，一名手持长刀的蒙面黑衣杀手出现，此人正 是他们寻找的叶天赐。黑衣人发动猛烈攻势，只是几招，便把两人打得落花流水。另一边厢，大师兄吴仲素也被日 本武士打败，千钧一发之时叶问赶到，搭救了他们3人，还打败了叶天赐。

后人声讨：

片中一代宗师不堪一击？

片中姚才、阮奇山与叶天赐对打的一段，引起了佛山姚氏、阮氏弟子的强烈不满。姚才的嫡系传人姚忠强表示：“ 他们是佛山的咏春三雄，彼此武功不相上下，但在片中不到两三下就被击败。”他表示，早前《叶问前传》在佛山 杀青时，他已向出品人冼国林说明“可以拍咏春三雄，但不能拍姚才、阮奇山被打倒在地。”而当时冼国林也口头 应允，称姚才、阮奇山等一代宗师在电影中绝对是正面形象。

“我们习武之人对宗派相当看重。电影公映后，我们姚氏、阮氏海内外20多万的弟子都知道了，大家觉得这是对 我们祖先的污蔑。”对于是否看过后期剧本，姚忠强表示：“冼国林没有征求过我们的意见，除了打过一次电话， 也没把剧本给我们看。”

公开声明：

“咏春三雄”绝非浪得虚名

前天，已年逾七旬的阮奇山嫡孙阮祖棠专程从广州赶往佛山，与姚才嫡孙姚汉强等人商讨如何为祖父讨回声誉。昨 天，阮祖棠与姚汉强、姚永强、姚忠强等人联合发表声明。对《叶问前传》剧组诋毁一代宗师的做法 进行谴责。

声明称：“咏春三雄”的姚才以及被蔑称为“小山”的阮奇山，不仅是广东武林真实存在的历史人物，而且是广东 武林史上尊称“咏春三雄”其中两位名声显赫的公众人物。《叶问前传》在毫无历史事实根据的情况下，捏造纯属 子虚乌有的虚假“史实”和贬损性描述，对阮奇山和姚才本人构成污蔑诽谤，同时对阮奇山咏春宗派和姚才咏春宗 派及其亲缘后人构成伤害后果。

下午，姚忠强与阮奇山的徒孙梁湛声同时接受本报采访。他们出示了自己爷爷宗师年轻时的照片。画面中所见，姚 才个子较高，身材粗壮，而阮奇山则相对清瘦。“你们看，电影中的姚才很瘦，但爷爷当年很壮的。他们在片中看 上去像是叶问的跟班。”姚忠强忿忿地说。

据了解，“咏春三雄”之一的阮奇山，武林中有“佛山阮老揸”之声誉，上世纪二十年代已是广东武术界的领袖人 物之一，咏春派一代宗师。自上世纪二十年代起，阮奇山咏春派和姚才咏春派就已开始承传发展，至今门下传人遍 及全世界30多个国家和地区。该两大宗派传人以最保守计算，已超过20万以上。

还原历史：

“咏春三雄”功夫难分高下

姚才的大孙子姚永强介绍，当年在佛山，他的爷爷姚才与叶问、阮奇山并称“咏春三雄”，三人齐名。后来叶问去 了香港，阮奇山去了广州，姚才则留在了佛山。他们三人的咏春拳各有特点，自成流派，但却难分高下。他说，作 为叶问大师兄的姚才，以动作快、功底厚著称，人称“大力才”，姚才一派的咏春拳也因此被称为“快手咏春”。 “爷爷自小好慕武术，之后跟随吴仲素习武，其时阮奇山、叶问也常往吴武馆请教，三人常交流切磋，三人的武功 不相上下。”

姚永强表示，他5岁时，祖父常与叶问在佛山普君墟习武切磋，祖父的功夫绝非浪得虚名。当时，叶问与姚才、阮 奇山三人“好得穿一条裤子”。

“电影为了衬托叶问的功夫高强，把我们的先祖描述成功夫不堪一击的小混混，实在是难以接受。”

阮奇山的徒孙梁湛声昨天还提供了祖传的记录，记录上写明，阮奇山师从冯少青，而叶问与其他多个咏春武者一同 在阮奇山的门下。“这本记录是上世纪70年代留下的，虽然不能说叶问是他的徒弟，但论资历，阮奇山排第一， 叶问最后，叶问向他请教也是正常事情。绝非电影中描述的那样需要叶问来搭救。”

两派后人：

要求澄清事实真相

两派后人在声明中提出：“《叶问前传》对阮、姚两位前辈的造谣诽谤，对两大主流宗派的承传人和亲缘后人的感 情造成极大伤害，会将两大兄弟派系推向对立面的不智之举，如果不紧急刹车，采取相应补救措施，将给叶问派系 置于孤立窘状，并可能沦落到武术界万众所指的境地。”

阮氏、姚氏后人昨天表示，对于《叶问前传》伪造历史对阮奇山、姚才的名誉侵害，他们要求剧组公开道歉，并澄 清事实真相。如果这一要求得不到满足，将通过法律途径和对方对簿公堂。

出品方：

本意是推广不同派系咏春的特色

阮氏、姚氏后人的强烈声讨，也把热播电影《叶问前传》推上了风口浪尖中。

昨日下午，该影片出品人冼国林给本报记者回复电话称，对于这场因电影情节引发的武林纷争，他也很无奈。“首 先，我要声明，电影中的前半部分是真实故事，而后半部分是虚构的，现实中并无叶天赐这个人，所以姚才、阮奇 山两位宗师被打败是虚构的。我承认忽略了其后人、弟子的感受，这是好心做了坏事。”

其次，电影的出发点是宣传“咏春三雄”，他们三位都是咏春大师，电影上映后海外很多人都知道了“咏春三雄” 中的姚才和阮奇山，大大提高了两位宗师的知名度，而且“为了加插姚才、阮奇山两位前辈的戏份，我多花了数十 万元制作及宣传费用”，目的就是希望慢慢向外推广不同派系咏春的特色，片中，两位前辈都是正义 的。

再次，电影中称呼阮奇山为“小山”，是昵称，而不是污蔑。电影中三位武术宗师都是年轻人，他们之间称呼彼此 有昵称也是正常的。

冼国林也给记者转发了他回复姚忠强的多条信息，其中一条信息称“如果好心而做到误解，日后亲自请罪。”（廖 银洁、肖欢欢）

[Shadow_warrior8]

its important to know though. in the movie they made yuen kay san look like sh!t
its not about putting yip man down, its about giving yuen kay san his proper respect

in the KF museum in foshan (like a hall of fame), sum nung and yuen kay san are there, based on their accomplishments. yip man is not. yip man only became famous after bruce lee became famous. not even people like wong fei hong were admitted. only after the "once upon a time in china" movies came out, did wong fei hong's students petition for him to be there

yuen kay san would fight these matches and tell the historian au sui jee to give credit to leung jan because he did not want to attract attention to himself and his family. as a result, leung jan gained a lot of notoriety.

the "3 heroes of wing chun" title did not exist at the time yuen kay san was alive. this came later and yuen kay san's grandson actually accepted it because he wanted to ride some of bruce lee's fame too.

in guangdong the perspective of WC is very different

Yes the producers did, that was not good. Yuen Kay san and Yiu Choi were heros on their own

Thats why the chinese goverment build Ip Man Tong for Ip Man. Ip man was famous with Yiu Choi and Yuen Kay San, and that was before Bruce Lee. Hence the stories of Ip Man in Fatshan and his exploits. If Yuen Jo Tong only accepted it later because of Bruce Lee fame, then so did Yiu Family?

Waiting to see historical documents, a website in chinese- there are heaps about wingchun in china, or even an interview from the Yuen Family or Yiu Choi family, Fung Family or even Ip man Fatshan students say this

Yuen Jo Tong? seems like an honourable man. He is doing a great job defending his grandfathers name who everyone in guangzhou already knew. Not sure about this. Again, same criteria as above I found the 3 heros tag on many articles and it was supposed to reference to when they were still young in guangzhou, before Ip Man left

[reneritchie]

It's not just the movie. It's 60 years of lying about Wing Chun Kuen history.

What was said in Hong Kong and the West was not what happened, and not what the same people said when they went back to Foshan and Guangzhou.

The movie was probably just the catalyst to start making things right.

This is martial arts. No one needs to lie about history; the ultimate proof is always and only if a sifu can make a student better.

To have Yuen Kay-San and his achievements displaced, demeaned, and disrespected for 60 years. It was an attempt to deny Yuen Kay-San his legacy and practitioners all over the world his heritage. It was a travesty that hopefully this begins to set right.

Every branch has had their controversy, every student has likely felt their teacher hasn't received some form of credit or another over the years.

To have had that systematically written in books and articles everywhere outside mainland China since the 1950s -- I'd ask everyone here to try and imagine what that is like, and then imagine how it must feel to the Yuen family now.

Vindication, I imagine.

[chusauli]

This is great news!

Yuen Kay Shan was never Ng Jung So's student, and is higher in the genealogy than Yip Man.

[Phil Redmond]

This is great news!

Yuen Kay Shan was never Ng Jung So's student, and is higher in the genealogy than Yip Man.
I once heard that Yip Man himself never said he was "The" Grandmaster of WC. He obviously recognized his seniors.

[chusauli]

I once heard that Yip Man himself never said he was "The" Grandmaster of WC. He obviously recognized his seniors.

That's quite true; He even knew that Chan Wah Shun's son was Chan Wah Shun's inheritor, not even Ng Jung So.

So it would not be where Yip Man ever claims he was the "Jeung Mun Yan" (Gatekeeper of WCK). He could only claim head of his own tradition.

[LoneTiger108]

Every branch has had their controversy, every student has likely felt their teacher hasn't received some form of credit or another over the years.

To have had that systematically written in books and articles everywhere outside mainland China since the 1950s -- I'd ask everyone here to try and imagine what that is like, and then imagine how it must feel to the Yuen family now.

It's very interesting to see this sort of family issue being dealt with so publically. It makes me quite uncomfortable to be honest, as I too come from a family that has been very misunderstood by the general Wing Chun community.

I can't tell you how it made me feel to actually support the Ip Man Tong opening by flying all the way to Foshan only to see absolutely no record of Lee Shing at all. :rolleyes: Considering he was the only European representative of Ip Man in the sixties, I found it very strange indeed. His contribution was literally side-lined and I felt my heart sink for my own Sifu, as he knows the Ip Family quite well.

It was explained back in 1997 by Ip Chun to my Sifu, and pretty much sounds like the same issue. Lee Shing was his own man. His way of Wing Chun was different to Ip Man and Ip Chun felt that this was a good enough reason for us to 'take care of ourselves'.

So, I didn't hold any bad feelings at all until I went to Foshan, and then I saw the movies too and Lee Shings name was never even mentioned! :mad: I can't imagine how I would feel if the movie portrayed him in a bad way, but it is just a movie!!

Look at what happened to 'Dragon - the Bruce Lee Story' :eek:

[Shadow_warrior8]

It's not just the movie. It's 60 years of lying about Wing Chun Kuen history.

What was said in Hong Kong and the West was not what happened, and not what the same people said when they went back to Foshan and Guangzhou.

The movie was probably just the catalyst to start making things right.

This is martial arts. No one needs to lie about history; the ultimate proof is always and only if a sifu can make a student better.

To have Yuen Kay-San and his achievements displaced, demeaned, and disrespected for 60 years. It was an attempt to deny Yuen Kay-San his legacy and practitioners all over the world his heritage. It was a travesty that hopefully this begins to set right.

Every branch has had their controversy, every student has likely felt their teacher hasn't received some form of credit or another over the years.

To have had that systematically written in books and articles everywhere outside mainland China since the 1950s -- I'd ask everyone here to try and imagine what that is like, and then imagine how it must feel to the Yuen family now.

Vindication, I imagine.

Rene, all lineages have their lies like you said. Today even Ip Man Lineage students who have benefited from him tell lies to justify their story.

Yuen Kay San was a great man, so was Yiu Choi

Description of Master Yiu
世居佛山普君墟安天坊，腕力惊人，人称“大力才”。
Description of Master Yuen
将咏春门的拳、桩、刀、棍等功技集一身，人称“佛山阮老揸”。

I see in china Master Yuen was, still is held in high esteem. Dont see it that he was lied about for 60 years. Ip Man on the other hand, many lineages spin lies about him and his abilities. Now that is a real shame. Wingchun is known around the world because of him, no matter whether anyone wants to agree or like it.

This is the video proper of Yuen family and Yiu Family voiceing their displeasure about the movie with the actual interviews.
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTg3MDY2NTky.html

[Pacman]

well being a legend or not a legend is subjective.

but just ask yourself when ip man tong was built (2002). there are no stories of ip man in fatsan, except for the ones created by the movie in which it is acknowledged as fiction

actually, ip man had went to japan to study for a while, so he knew a little japanese. it was because of this that he was hired by the japanese invaders to translate for them.

so ip man was more like the cop in the first movie than the ip man in the first movie.

the richest man in fatsan who lazily trains KF? That sounds more like yuen kay san. yuen's father owned the entire firework industry in fatsan. he never worked a day in his life. all he did was practice KF. his father paid huge sums of gold and silver to fung siu ching for training

ip man's dad was an opium boat captain.


Yes the producers did, that was not good. Yuen Kay san and Yiu Choi were heros on their own

Thats why the chinese goverment build Ip Man Tong for Ip Man. Ip man was famous with Yiu Choi and Yuen Kay San, and that was before Bruce Lee. Hence the stories of Ip Man in Fatshan and his exploits. If Yuen Jo Tong only accepted it later because of Bruce Lee fame, then so did Yiu Family?

Waiting to see historical documents, a website in chinese- there are heaps about wingchun in china, or even an interview from the Yuen Family or Yiu Choi family, Fung Family or even Ip man Fatshan students say this

Yuen Jo Tong? seems like an honourable man. He is doing a great job defending his grandfathers name who everyone in guangzhou already knew. Not sure about this. Again, same criteria as above I found the 3 heros tag on many articles and it was supposed to reference to when they were still young in guangzhou, before Ip Man left


http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.YuenKayShan

Yuen Kay accepted a very limited number of students and only had one disciple, Sum Num. Yip Man (The man that brought Wing Chun to Hong Kong in 1949 and first taught the system to the public) and his family, were neighbors of the Yuen’s. Yip Man’s father was a fellow merchant of Yuen Chong Ming. Yip Man’s grandfather had been an opium boat captain and some locals took exception to him gaining wealth in that fashion so burnt down the Yip estate. Yuen’s father took the Yip clan in and housed them in his estate for a time. During this time Yuen Chong Ming asked Yuen to teach young Yip Man some Chi Sau as Young Yip had not learnt this from his quasi teacher, Ng Chung So. Yuen wasn’t happy doing this as Yip was Ng’s student and did different Wing Chun. However, at His father’s urging, Yuen did teach Yip a little chi sau. Yip was asked not to show this to his elder gwoon brothers but later did so, defeating them. Yuen Kay also taught his Friend Wong Jing, who would later pass his art down to his son Mai Gai Wong.

[Shadow_warrior8]

I once heard that Yip Man himself never said he was "The" Grandmaster of WC. He obviously recognized his seniors.

He never said he was grandmaster. From what we know from Sigung Ip Ching and Sifu Samuel Kwok, he was a humble man, and he seldom talk about wingchun outside of class even to his sons. Sigung Ip Ching would know, he lived with him in the last 10 years of his life.

[Shadow_warrior8]

well being a legend or not a legend is subjective.

but just ask yourself when ip man tong was built (2002). there are no stories of ip man in fatsan, except for the ones created by the movie in which it is acknowledged as fiction

actually, ip man had went to japan to study for a while, so he knew a little japanese. it was because of this that he was hired by the japanese invaders to translate for them.

so ip man was more like the cop in the first movie than the ip man in the first movie.

the richest man in fatsan who lazily trains KF? That sounds more like yuen kay san. yuen's father owned the entire firework industry in fatsan. he never worked a day in his life. all he did was practice KF. his father paid huge sums of gold and silver to fung siu ching for training

ip man's dad was an opium boat captain.




http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.YuenKayShan

Yuen Kay accepted a very limited number of students and only had one disciple, Sum Num. Yip Man (The man that brought Wing Chun to Hong Kong in 1949 and first taught the system to the public) and his family, were neighbors of the Yuen’s. Yip Man’s father was a fellow merchant of Yuen Chong Ming. Yip Man’s grandfather had been an opium boat captain and some locals took exception to him gaining wealth in that fashion so burnt down the Yip estate. Yuen’s father took the Yip clan in and housed them in his estate for a time. During this time Yuen Chong Ming asked Yuen to teach young Yip Man some Chi Sau as Young Yip had not learnt this from his quasi teacher, Ng Chung So. Yuen wasn’t happy doing this as Yip was Ng’s student and did different Wing Chun. However, at His father’s urging, Yuen did teach Yip a little chi sau. Yip was asked not to show this to his elder gwoon brothers but later did so, defeating them. Yuen Kay also taught his Friend Wong Jing, who would later pass his art down to his son Mai Gai Wong.

Since I have a part in the website years back and realise the source and who was writing it up. I reserve my comments to say, some of those "truths" need be updated

There are clear videos and interviews of Kwok fu and lun gai as fighters and "invincible" in fatshan, they have honoured Ip Man for years there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-OH1PR7uDQ

Kwok fu clearly said Yuen Kay San would come to Ip Man's house and garden when they were training. I would not say anymore of what he said here. But its in his video interview.
Kwok fu's son is pretty famous too in Fatshan.

A good e.g on that site, Yiu Choi taught Ip Man, Yiu family have publicly said it was not so.

[chusauli]

well being a legend or not a legend is subjective.

but just ask yourself when ip man tong was built (2002). there are no stories of ip man in fatsan, except for the ones created by the movie in which it is acknowledged as fiction

actually, ip man had went to japan to study for a while, so he knew a little japanese. it was because of this that he was hired by the japanese invaders to translate for them.

so ip man was more like the cop in the first movie than the ip man in the first movie.

the richest man in fatsan who lazily trains KF? That sounds more like yuen kay san. yuen's father owned the entire firework industry in fatsan. he never worked a day in his life. all he did was practice KF. his father paid huge sums of gold and silver to fung siu ching for training

ip man's dad was an opium boat captain.




http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.YuenKayShan

Yuen Kay accepted a very limited number of students and only had one disciple, Sum Num. Yip Man (The man that brought Wing Chun to Hong Kong in 1949 and first taught the system to the public) and his family, were neighbors of the Yuen’s. Yip Man’s father was a fellow merchant of Yuen Chong Ming. Yip Man’s grandfather had been an opium boat captain and some locals took exception to him gaining wealth in that fashion so burnt down the Yip estate. Yuen’s father took the Yip clan in and housed them in his estate for a time. During this time Yuen Chong Ming asked Yuen to teach young Yip Man some Chi Sau as Young Yip had not learnt this from his quasi teacher, Ng Chung So. Yuen wasn’t happy doing this as Yip was Ng’s student and did different Wing Chun. However, at His father’s urging, Yuen did teach Yip a little chi sau. Yip was asked not to show this to his elder gwoon brothers but later did so, defeating them. Yuen Kay also taught his Friend Wong Jing, who would later pass his art down to his son Mai Gai Wong.


Hence why the Yip Man And Yuen Kay Shan systems both teach the Luk Sao/Poon Sao exercise, and other branches of WCK probably adopted the exercise.

[reneritchie]

>Kwok fu clearly said Yuen Kay San would come to Ip Man's house and garden when they were training. I would not say anymore of what he said here. But its in his video interview.

I didn't watch the video interview, but back in the 1970s there were some statements made that greatly misrepresented what went on during that training. They basically said Yip Man taught Yuen Kay-San Chi Sao.

Yuen Jo-Tong sent a letter to New Martial Hero, along with similar documents and statements, to dispel those rumors. Sum Nung, who was the one training Chi Sao with Yip Man and Yip Man's early students, offered to take Mok Poi-On and any other reporters who wanted to accompany him to go visit Kwok Fu, so they could hear the proper story in Kwok Fu's own words.

The stories abruptly ended at that point.

Suffice it to say, the real version didn't receive a lot of coverage in the west either :(

[Pacman]

you have to take into evidence sources that are not biased. people from YM lineage are of course going to talk up YM. Same goes for YKS. So you have to take into account unbiased sources like those documents, what is in the fatsan KF museum etc.

where are the records of YM fights? YKS was documented to have beaten the "King of the Staff" from Shaanxi and to have beaten Wong Fei Hong and others.

earlier we were talking about lies. if YM was humble then thats great, the problem is that people in his lineage distort the history. like I said before, the "three heroes of wing chun" is in itself a modern thing and a joke. yuen kay san's grandson goes along with it for political reasons. it would be equivalent to years from now that AC Green and Magic Johnson were at the same skill level and accomplishment level.

why would yip chun travel to china three times to beg sum nung to teach him when his own father was alive?!

the truth is a lot of people you hear about learned a little WC from sum nung over the years. thankfully sum nung was fearful of them stealing his WC and not giving his KF family credit, telling people it is all their own so he taught them very little and only showed them his WC at a superficial level or left everything incomplete at first.

this is what happened with mickey wong and leung ting and others, and he was right. they never gave credit to sum nung for influencing their WC at any level. leung ting even talked down to sum nung in his book.

this is why sum nung denied yip chun as a student. he was fearful of all the credit being given to yip man and he was probably right that would have happened.


Since I have a part in the website years back and realise the source and who was writing it up. I reserve my comments to say, some of those "truths" need be updated

There are clear videos and interviews of Kwok fu and lun gai as fighters and "invincible" in fatshan, they have honoured Ip Man for years there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-OH1PR7uDQ

Kwok fu clearly said Yuen Kay San would come to Ip Man's house and garden when they were training. I would not say anymore of what he said here. But its in his video interview.
Kwok fu's son is pretty famous too in Fatshan.

A good e.g on that site, Yiu Choi taught Ip Man, Yiu family have publicly said it was not so.

[Pacman]

this is true. yuen kay san then told sum nung to kick yip man's ass for saying BS. yip man denied any wrong doing, blaming his students for spreading the rumors. sum nung didn't really want to fight yip man, as they were friendly acquaintances, but he had to follow his teacher's request.

so sum nung went to challenge yip man a few times in hong kong. finally yip man accepted in a private match. yip man tried his famous pak sau technique. that failed and sum nung defeated him quickly.

of course when asked about this sum nung would not want yip man to lose face so he would not talk about it publicly.


>Kwok fu clearly said Yuen Kay San would come to Ip Man's house and garden when they were training. I would not say anymore of what he said here. But its in his video interview.

I didn't watch the video interview, but back in the 1970s there were some statements made that greatly misrepresented what went on during that training. They basically said Yip Man taught Yuen Kay-San Chi Sao.

Yuen Jo-Tong sent a letter to New Martial Hero, along with similar documents and statements, to dispel those rumors. Sum Nung, who was the one training Chi Sao with Yip Man and Yip Man's early students, offered to take Mok Poi-On and any other reporters who wanted to accompany him to go visit Kwok Fu, so they could hear the proper story in Kwok Fu's own words.

The stories abruptly ended at that point.

Suffice it to say, the real version didn't receive a lot of coverage in the west either :(

[t_niehoff]

this is true. yuen kay san then told sum nung to kick yip man's ass for saying BS. yip man denied any wrong doing, blaming his students for spreading the rumors. sum nung didn't really want to fight yip man, as they were friendly acquaintances, but he had to follow his teacher's request.

so sum nung went to challenge yip man a few times in hong kong. finally yip man accepted in a private match. yip man tried his famous pak sau technique. that failed and sum nung defeated him quickly.

of course when asked about this sum nung would not want yip man to lose face so he would not talk about it publicly.

Sum and Yip never had any challenge match.

[bennyvt]

wow people just make any crap up and call it history.
Sounds like a bunch of spitfull little b1tches upset because there isn't a YKS movie.

[reneritchie]

Pacman,

Those stories aren't what I heard from Sum Nung. They sound like mashups and highly dramatized versions. Sum Nung took pains to be polite and respectful of the WCK family.

[Pacman]

Pacman,

Those stories aren't what I heard from Sum Nung. They sound like mashups and highly dramatized versions. Sum Nung took pains to be polite and respectful of the WCK family.


like i said. public vs private. indoor student vs public student.

[reneritchie]

LOL. No.

Unfortunately, that's part of the problem. Stories that get out of control. They infect every branch :(

[Pacman]

LOL. No.

Unfortunately, that's part of the problem. Stories that get out of control. They infect every branch :(

well this one is not out of control. i admit i did not talk to sum nung about this one, but with his direct student.

[Shadow_warrior8]

its a matter of students of sum, yuen versus ip

Its all BS to me, all stories after they died and telling all kinds of tales

heard them all, yuen taught ip, sum kicked ip, putting ip man down, chan wah shun blackmailed leung jan was taught wrong footwork, now ip descendants do a movie, the official descendants have come back to merely say this movie does not honour their ancestors- THATS ALL THEY SAID.
Sum definately did not teach ip chun etc...Yuen Kay San did teach young Ip Chun Sil Lim Tao and he did say so.

Show me in writing or in video interview any of the sifus mentioned they said so, or their descendants said so, otherwise its just all nonsense and politics

The 3 men were heros, recognised and great friends. You think they argued about who was better like now by their so called followers?

Why cant people honour their friendships and brotherhood like they did.

And moving forward what does it mean? if Yuen had better skills than Ip? More authentic? Or Ip was better than Yuen? Or Sum Beat Ip? So what?
What do we have to do? Do the clans have to chi sao and fight it out? So now we have rumours of Yuen, Sum beating Ip. Do we have to go to fatshan and now challenge and redeem Ip family name? All this talk, its your wingchun, what you put in is what you get.
Indoor, outdoor, indoor who is lazy can be the worst martial artist in the world, outdoor through his hard work and a open mind can come to a higher level.
Thats why its called kung fu.

[Shadow_warrior8]

Pacman,

Those stories aren't what I heard from Sum Nung. They sound like mashups and highly dramatized versions. Sum Nung took pains to be polite and respectful of the WCK family.

I have spent years looking the way Sum Nung, Yuen Kay San, Yiu Choi were presented in china, they were always known as people of great mo dak.

Pacmen your stories without backup besides official verification offend the Ip family, his students and Ip Chun- who you claimed went to Guangzhou to beg Sum Nung 3 times to accept him even though Ip Man was alive. I will ask Sigung Ip Chun since he can verify this.

If you see what a movie means to Yuen and Yiu Descendants and having to apologise for making ancestors looks bad, spinning these things without proof is offensive to us, as Ip Man descendants.

[Pacman]

renee

i appreciate your input on the YKS issue, and i will drop debate over this story (because its implications are obvious even without it), but just ask yourself about your sources.

you were not close to sum nung as an indoor student, as someone who had the student/teacher relationship which traditionally is like a father/son relationship. you spoke to him as a grandstudent. also when you spoke to him, did he know you were writing a book? that could have influenced him being more reserved and choosing his words carefully.

[Pacman]

if it doesnt matter then thats great. you should have no problem discussing what is reality without getting upset. for the record im not trying to state who is better, im just stating facts as i was told. those facts coincide with some evidence. you can choose to believe or not.

i did not say sum nung taught yip man. yuen kay san taught yip man sticky hands for a few months briefly. yip man did not know sticky hands before this. all he really knew was how to use the chung choi (chain punch). this is probably why yip man's understanding of sticky hands is superficial, just skin deep at best. this is probably why there is so much confusion as to what sticky hands is. some say its just a drill just an excercise most likely because they cannot make it work in a real situation.

recently i read about yuen kay san in wingchunpedia (http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.YuenKayShan)

in the last paragraph it talks about yuen kay san teaching yip man briefly when yip's house was burned down and yips grandfather being an opium boat captain. these details i had not heard of. i had only been told about yuen teaching yip a little sticky hands.


Yip Man’s father was a fellow merchant of Yuen Chong Ming [Yuen Kay San's father]. Yip Man’s grandfather had been an opium boat captain and some locals took exception to him gaining wealth in that fashion so burnt down the Yip estate. Yuen’s father took the Yip clan in and housed them in his estate for a time. During this time Yuen Chong Ming asked Yuen to teach young Yip Man some Chi Sau as Young Yip had not learnt this from his quasi teacher, Ng Chung So. Yuen wasn’t happy doing this as Yip was Ng’s student and did different Wing Chun. However, at His father’s urging, Yuen did teach Yip a little chi sau. Yip was asked not to show this to his elder gwoon brothers but later did so, defeating them.


its a matter of students of sum, yuen versus ip

Its all BS to me, all stories after they died and telling all kinds of tales

heard them all, yuen taught ip, sum kicked ip, putting ip man down, chan wah shun blackmailed leung jan was taught wrong footwork, now ip descendants do a movie, the official descendants have come back to merely say this movie does not honour their ancestors- THATS ALL THEY SAID.
Sum definately did not teach ip chun etc...Yuen Kay San did teach young Ip Chun Sil Lim Tao and he did say so.

Show me in writing or in video interview any of the sifus mentioned they said so, or their descendants said so, otherwise its just all nonsense and politics

The 3 men were heros, recognised and great friends. You think they argued about who was better like now by their so called followers?

Why cant people honour their friendships and brotherhood like they did.

And moving forward what does it mean? if Yuen had better skills than Ip? More authentic? Or Ip was better than Yuen? Or Sum Beat Ip? So what?
What do we have to do? Do the clans have to chi sao and fight it out? So now we have rumours of Yuen, Sum beating Ip. Do we have to go to fatshan and now challenge and redeem Ip family name? All this talk, its your wingchun, what you put in is what you get.
Indoor, outdoor, indoor who is lazy can be the worst martial artist in the world, outdoor through his hard work and a open mind can come to a higher level.
Thats why its called kung fu.

[chusauli]

if it doesnt matter then thats great. you should have no problem discussing what is reality without getting upset. for the record im not trying to state who is better, im just stating facts as i was told. those facts coincide with some evidence. you can choose to believe or not.

i did not say sum nung taught yip man. yuen kay san taught yip man sticky hands for a few months briefly. yip man did not know sticky hands before this. all he really knew was how to use the chung choi (chain punch). this is probably why yip man's understanding of sticky hands is superficial, just skin deep at best. this is probably why there is so much confusion as to what sticky hands is. some say its just a drill just an excercise most likely because they cannot make it work in a real situation.

recently i read about yuen kay san in wingchunpedia (http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.YuenKayShan)

in the last paragraph it talks about yuen kay san teaching yip man briefly when yip's house was burned down and yips grandfather being an opium boat captain. these details i had not heard of. i had only been told about yuen teaching yip a little sticky hands.


Are you saying that Yip Man system Sticking Hands is superficial when compared to Yuen Kay Shan WCK Sticking Hands? Or are you saying that when Yip Man went to learn Sticking Hands from YKS, his knowledge was superficial?

[Pacman]

Are you saying that Yip Man system Sticking Hands is superficial when compared to Yuen Kay Shan WCK Sticking Hands? Or are you saying that when Yip Man went to learn Sticking Hands from YKS, his knowledge was superficial?

im saying that yip man learned sticky hands from yuen kay san for a short period of time. YM had only really mastered the chung choi before this. reportedley yuen kay san was also reluctant to teach yip man because he was learning a different style of wing chun. YKS is an 'old school' type of guy who is in the tradition of keeping skills and knowledge within the inner circle of his own KF family.

those are the facts that i know.

from that i see the the confusion over what sticky hands is and the difference in how it is trained. i think even bruce lee (direct YM student) said that it is just for practice and not applicable. you can also see the difference in the way people train the wooden dummy.

to debate whether sticky hands is practical or not is not my intention, but the difference in views of what sticky hands is between the YKS and YM lineage is evidence that YM did not absorb everything YKS knew about chi sau. combine that with the limited time to learn and it fits together.

it might also explain why we see the chung choi as the go to move in YM wing chun and why people on this forum such as sanjuro ronin think WC is all about charging like a rhino into the "close range" with the chung choi

[Hendrik]

speculating YM had only really mastered the Chung Choi really has no sense of what WCK is.

It is as usual, people take side and create lots of HIS-STORY and the HIS-STORY actually distorted on what really happen.









im saying that yip man learned sticky hands from yuen kay san for a short period of time. YM had only really mastered the chung choi before this. reportedley yuen kay san was also reluctant to teach yip man because he was learning a different style of wing chun. YKS is an 'old school' type of guy who is in the tradition of keeping skills and knowledge within the inner circle of his own KF family.

those are the facts that i know.

from that i see the the confusion over what sticky hands is and the difference in how it is trained. i think even bruce lee (direct YM student) said that it is just for practice and not applicable. you can also see the difference in the way people train the wooden dummy.

to debate whether sticky hands is practical or not is not my intention, but the difference in views of what sticky hands is between the YKS and YM lineage is evidence that YM did not absorb everything YKS knew about chi sau. combine that with the limited time to learn and it fits together.

it might also explain why we see the chung choi as the go to move in YM wing chun and why people on this forum such as sanjuro ronin think WC is all about charging like a rhino into the "close range" with the chung choi

[t_niehoff]

those are the facts that i know.


Do you see what I mean, Rene? Idiots. People love their stories. And they always involve how "we" are so much better than "them."

[sanjuro_ronin]

Facts and WC?
BBBWWWAAHHHHH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Hendrik]

from that i see the the confusion over what sticky hands is and the difference in how it is trained. i think even bruce lee (direct YM student) said that it is just for practice and not applicable. you can also see the difference in the way people train the wooden dummy.




Chong Chui alone is not WCK.

Go for center line is not WCK but White Crane of Fujian.

Using both arms together is not WCK but Southern ShaoLin and lots of other arts.

Walking in Angle is not WCK.



Sticky hands is actually practice, a second nature, and a uniqueness of WCner who knows WCK.

Stick is not really stick but a combination of Center structure damaging, sealing, and continuous momentum management in the same time. Without this it is not WCK.

Lots of YM's students and grand students among with YKS's line from SN himself, do these although some dont.

From YM's line, Range from WSL, Hawkin, Gary Lam, Robert Chu.....do these, check into the signature.



BTW:
I dont do Poon Sau type of sticky hand drill, but I still do the above WCK uniqueness. That doesnt mean I dont know WCK, it just mean I am from different lineage.

[Pacman]

Do you see what I mean, Rene? Idiots. People love their stories. And they always involve how "we" are so much better than "them."

as usual you don't read other people's posts and just blabber on.

i specifically said i am not arguing who is better. i am just stating what i have learned.

you can state the history you have learned, i can state the history i have learned. in the end neither of us have any evidence to prove any claim, but just like Rene's example with the incident in the 70s he trusts his sources and I trust mine.

funny that no one objected to Rene's story, but as soon as you say something politically incorrect everyone calls you crazy. this inconsistency is obviously caused by an emotional factor

[Pacman]

speculating YM had only really mastered the Chung Choi really has no sense of what WCK is.

It is as usual, people take side and create lots of HIS-STORY and the HIS-STORY actually distorted on what really happen.

ok but ask yourself this, why do you automatically think you know what actually happened more than i do? if you acknowledge people make things up (which I totally agree), why is what you have learned immune from being made up?

the answer is, "its not", and thats my point.

if people want evidence of things then look at the historical documents about yuen kay san and sum nung's accomplishments (fight records and writings about them that were made at the time they were alive). go to the KF hall of fame museum in Fatsan and check it out for yourself. Ask yourself why yiu choi and yip man are not there despite being part of the "3 heroes of wing chun"

try to find records of yip man's fight record. his signature for participating in the death duel tournaments. you will not find it

this is not

[Hendrik]

ok but ask yourself this, why do you automatically think you know what actually happened more than i do? if you acknowledge people make things up (which I totally agree), why is what you have learned immune from being made up?

Yip Man only knows Chung Choi?
Anyone who makes up the story needs to be more clever then this.




if people want evidence of things then look at the historical documents about yuen kay san and sum nung's accomplishments (fight records and writings about them that were made at the time they were alive). go to the KF hall of fame museum in Fatsan and check it out for yourself. Ask yourself why yiu choi and yip man are not there despite being part of the "3 heroes of wing chun"


Still that doesnt prove Yip Man only Knows Chung Choi.

You see, YKS and SN are good.
However, there is a different between praise on YKS/ SN which everyone agree; and step on Yip Man as one likes it and how one likes it.



Now, turning the question around, how much WCK do yourself know? how many of Yip Man's top students and grand students have you play with? for you to pass your story?

[Hendrik]

as usual you don't read other people's posts and just blabber on.

i specifically said i am not arguing who is better. i am just stating what i have learned.

you can state the history you have learned, i can state the history i have learned. in the end neither of us have any evidence to prove any claim, but just like Rene's example with the incident in the 70s he trusts his sources and I trust mine.

funny that no one objected to Rene's story, but as soon as you say something politically incorrect everyone calls you crazy. this inconsistency is obviously caused by an emotional factor


Rene had shared with me his experience after he visited SN.

I buy what Rene told me because working with Rene on many projects bring me to respect his neutral, details, and professional approached.

IMHO,
You could shared good things on YKS and SN here but please dont pass Ip Man's bad story to respect those who has already passed away.

[chusauli]

im saying that yip man learned sticky hands from yuen kay san for a short period of time. YM had only really mastered the chung choi before this. reportedley yuen kay san was also reluctant to teach yip man because he was learning a different style of wing chun. YKS is an 'old school' type of guy who is in the tradition of keeping skills and knowledge within the inner circle of his own KF family.

those are the facts that i know.

So how long does it take to learn Chi Sao? To master it might take a long while, but from one WCK person to another, how long does it really take? Also, I am sure Chan Wah Shun lineage has Chi Sao - they may not have started with the same Luk Sao platform as in YKS... Yip Man saw the value in that and learned the Luk Sao platform and filled it in with his WCK application - use of body structure, engaging, asking, feinting, enticing, drawing, guiding, leading, evasion, absorption, issuing, rising, sinking, finishing, intercepting, running, sticking, rubbing, tools such as Tan Da, Lop Da, Pal Da, etc. are the main training methods. Did YKS really teach Yip Man Chi Sao or the platform of Luk Sao? Since I learned both YKS and Yip Man systems, it is more the individual's "game", i.e. his "gung fu" or attainment.


from that i see the the confusion over what sticky hands is and the difference in how it is trained. i think even bruce lee (direct YM student) said that it is just for practice and not applicable. you can also see the difference in the way people train the wooden dummy.

I don't think Chi Sao is just a drill, but it is attribute development. Fighting is a matter of your skills, applying your advantages, to place against your opponent's disadvantages. It is a way for insiders to the WCK family to safely develop their skills, not play pattycake.


to debate whether sticky hands is practical or not is not my intention, but the difference in views of what sticky hands is between the YKS and YM lineage is evidence that YM did not absorb everything YKS knew about chi sau. combine that with the limited time to learn and it fits together.

it might also explain why we see the chung choi as the go to move in YM wing chun and why people on this forum such as sanjuro ronin think WC is all about charging like a rhino into the "close range" with the chung choi

YM has his complete game for him, and for what he passed on to his students is very complete. Ultimately, it is not about who's system is more complete, it is about what you do to complete for yourself. All martial arts are really you learning about you, and how you make it work for you.

BTW, I do do not know if Paul said that about WCK, but WCK is no rhino method, perhaps to outsiders without enough detailed instruction, that's what it appears to be.

[k gledhill]

A lot of chi-sao is redundant to actual fighting use I agree , NOT APPLICABLE , nice to hear others share this. Until you 'let go' of the baggage, chi-sao can make you feel like you have so much, when in reality its just sharpening the punches...and ability to make punches.
The most obvious is that we dont fight with both arms outstretched equally. We only do this so the 'partner' ie friend, can equally exchange the punches jum v tan while facing.
Foksao is an 'elbow in jum strike ' waiting to 'lat sao chit chung' a bad elbow of tan....drill.
Poon sao / lok sao is this, it can be shown as a tan bong v double fok to a beginner for ease of actions, before doing the regular tan ~ jum force exchange.

You feel your buttocks working for stability of the forwards hip positions when your doing this intense exchange, so you can see a lot of c r a p would have been used to make the drill less strenuous on the stability of the practitioners, leading to less intense force of punch exchanges ie backward jutsaos to incoming tan sao's.


We can add many variations to the chi-sao to help increase stability, explosive forwards aggression with momentum controlled, while using the centerline/facing as the attack line. The invisible line being engaged by various counters from a partner, from simple mistakes of over crossing the line while countering, under crossing etc...all making us 'line aware'. lateral movement can be added from chi-sao stances to simply make each other go after the attempted escape, intentional disengagement of hands, feinting, etc...all to develop the mutual partners BEFORE fighting.

3-1/2 years can make a pretty decent fighter, quality of coaching not quantity of years doing cr ap , never mind 30 years....simple actions are hidden in the chung choi, hidden not by secrecy, but by only being energy to maintain certain alignments while attacking 'potential' contact. Becoming 'sensitive' to wrong energy alignment in defensive responses....like rainstorm on a windshield, being countered by windshield wipers, the storm keeps coming :D you wipe one attack away, the next follows, and so on...WSL was reputed to win many fights within 3 moves like this.

from what I have been told, the 'tan da' was only a facing drill misunderstood [meaning turning only to aim at opponents shifting], not to be done inside the shoulders of the opponent as hard blocks , the 'da' is a jum inward elbow strike, the tan is actually being drawn back to make another jum strike...you can use 2 hands versus one but thats not a skill.

The actual attack/fight of vt is very simple, the opponent shows us what to do, its up to us to beable to train to a point it becomes a reflex response...how long that takes ?

Im still at the 'what the f u c k just hit me ' level:D

[Shadow_warrior8]

if it doesnt matter then thats great. you should have no problem discussing what is reality without getting upset. for the record im not trying to state who is better, im just stating facts as i was told. those facts coincide with some evidence. you can choose to believe or not.

i did not say sum nung taught yip man. yuen kay san taught yip man sticky hands for a few months briefly. yip man did not know sticky hands before this. all he really knew was how to use the chung choi (chain punch). this is probably why yip man's understanding of sticky hands is superficial, just skin deep at best. this is probably why there is so much confusion as to what sticky hands is. some say its just a drill just an excercise most likely because they cannot make it work in a real situation.

recently i read about yuen kay san in wingchunpedia (http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.YuenKayShan)

in the last paragraph it talks about yuen kay san teaching yip man briefly when yip's house was burned down and yips grandfather being an opium boat captain. these details i had not heard of. i had only been told about yuen teaching yip a little sticky hands.

Nothing to get angry about, you state your facts, I state mine with reference to family interviews, goverment text, chinese reports and also common sense

Your statements implicate Ng Chun So to have not taught Ip Man anything
Or Chan Wah Shun to have not shown Ip Man nothing, yet he is officially a listed student.
Or Leung Bik did not exist.
Did Chan Wah Shun, Leung Bik and Ng Chun So only know chong choi? And Ng Chun So tasked to teach Ip Man only teach him Chong Choi? It makes no sense.
And your so called hall of fame that Yiu is not there
Yiu was known to have great wrist power that shocked many, his moniker was Da li- having great strength Yiu
世居佛山普君墟安天坊，腕力惊人，人称“大力才”。

Hall of fame- these chinese goverment build a Ip Man Tong for Ip Man. He was not in a hall, he had a place all by himself. This is to recognise his efforts and placing chinese kungfu on the map, worldwide through hongkong to bruce lee. As we should about all the past sifus.
And from what I see of the reputation of Sifu Lun Gai, and Kwok Fu who are famous in fatshan, Ip man must have taught some great skills.

Yeah Master Tam in Sergio interview from Chan Yiu Ming states otherwise. They knew about Leung Bik and Leung Jan had children. See next post of Fung elder- a respected great man in Kulo.
By the way Sifu Sergio, I know you are reading this forum and using the information to support your statement Leung Bik dont exist. Rene, he has quoted you word for word on facebook so you know.
Sifu Sergio, you are not stating everything written here and your translation to the western world is completely different from the chinese report. You do great work with your interviews and I think its great, but since you have the official word from Sifu Tam that he heard from his sifu about leung jan's 2 sons, why do you still say leung bik doesnt exist? I dont understand
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IEej1FpJwo

For everyone information, when Ip chun went with Checkly Sim to see Yuen Jo Tong, they nearly came to blows. So dont be putting my lineage in a demeaning way as if they had to beg on their knees and beg for forgiveness because they were so afraid of Yuen Family Skills. That article read by a chinese person would know exactly what it means. That why I posted it in chinese. Checkley sim was taking a position of a junior to seniors, as I will also in front of my seniors. Its not a matter of right and wrong. Its chinese tradition to respect our seniors in the art.

In fact, Sifu Sergio's videos have helped establised Leung Bik existence, since Sifu Tam and Sifu Fung have establised very clearly Leung Bik exist. Of course, I also went to Heshan Kulo Goverment and also the Ip family for their documents, books of Leung Jan, to also substantiate the claim. How can the goverment allow fake documents in one of their most famous monument?

Back to Ip Man and Yuen Kay San, what do their descendants say? In chinese lineage, we will not hesitate to say it as it is. If you were my student, I would not put you as my equal, hence the chinese word, Jun Si Jong Do, respect the teacher and the way, 1 day as a teacher, 1 lifetime as a father. Master Yuen was clearly a man of tradition, he would have honoured that tradition.

How could Yuen teach Ip so much yet be put on the same level?
How could they be 3 heros together if according the the hall of fame only Master Yuen was qualified to be there?
Are you implying Ip Man rided on the coat tails of Yuen and had no skills?

Here, instead of stories from this source that, which I cannot see any videos or text to substantiate

Here is from the families of Yiu and Yuen descedants about their relations- They were good friends and brothers. It merely state Yiu and Yuen were older than Ip, thats all. What senior in rank, or taught Ip, or under his family. This was not what was mentioned by the families before the "settlement" in the teahouse. Suddenly there is some document that states Ip learn from Yuen written in the 70s, which no one has seen before by one of the Yuen clan(not Yuen Jo Tong). I hope I do not see a change in lineage charts after this on certain websites I posted before.

This was exactly what the argument was about, that the descendants of each lineage would have problems between each other.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5njdTJvxnA

[Shadow_warrior8]

Fung elder states that Leung Jan had children, officially

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R92HZs4Aj40&feature=channel

[Shadow_warrior8]

well being a legend or not a legend is subjective.

but just ask yourself when ip man tong was built (2002). there are no stories of ip man in fatsan, except for the ones created by the movie in which it is acknowledged as fiction

actually, ip man had went to japan to study for a while, so he knew a little japanese. it was because of this that he was hired by the japanese invaders to translate for them.

so ip man was more like the cop in the first movie than the ip man in the first movie.

the richest man in fatsan who lazily trains KF? That sounds more like yuen kay san. yuen's father owned the entire firework industry in fatsan. he never worked a day in his life. all he did was practice KF. his father paid huge sums of gold and silver to fung siu ching for training

ip man's dad was an opium boat captain.



Ip Man went to Japan? And worked as a japanese translator? Are you calling him a traitor? In those times, my grandmother would hate the japanese, all the chinese at that time did. Any one helping the japanese back then was seen as a traitor.

I am seeing my sigung and sifu in sep, all this I will have an official statement.

This is world changing news and that his father was a boat captain etc... I heard Yuen was a lawyer and back in those days it mean a great deal.

Donnie yen clearly stated he spend a long time studying the life of Ip Man, you implying he was like the police guy smacked around as a translator is clearly off.

Either you are providing inside information from a source that is going to shock the world of wingchun in china, hongkong and the world or your source has been smoking something weird man.

Here is the official research from china. And it is extensive covering his family and his life
http://baike.baidu.com/view/53376.htm
From reports, Ip man was quite anti japanese occupation and had alot of nationalistic pride

[Shadow_warrior8]

Setting the record straight
First line says very he was from a "Big family" as in wealthy and influential. He only studied in Stephens, which in those days meant he had alot of money to be studying in prestigious western school.
Yip Man’s real name was Yip Ki Man. He was a native city of Foshan in Canton, China. He was the second child born in the family, living on Fook Yin Road in the Mulberry Gardens of Foshan. His is a well-known family in that area. Next door to his house is a famous Teahouse of Foshan, Tou Yun Gue. Also next door is a famous bakery, Gow Hing Long. The houses of Mulberry Gardens are very big, and the "Ip" Mulberry Gardens itself is very large and well known in Foshan.

叶问（1893－1972年），本名叶继问，是广东佛山的大族富家子弟。叶问从小受到家庭严谨的儒家教育。 从7岁起便拜“咏春拳王”梁赞的高足陈华顺（人称华公）为师学习咏春拳。自收叶问为徒后，陈华顺则不再接受 任何人士拜门学技，叶问成为陈华顺封门弟子。华公逝世后，叶问再随师兄吴仲素钻研拳技。叶问十六岁那年，赴 港求学外文，就读于圣士提反学校。后随梁壁（梁赞之子）学武。1950年赴香港，在港九饭店职工总会内传授 咏春拳术。其弟子中最出名的是让中国武术闻名世界的武打巨星李小龙。 另有相关电影以此为名。

早年生活
　　叶问(1893年10月1日—1972年12月1日)，佛山桑园叶族人。叶问入选中国世界纪录协会世界 咏春拳第一人。祖籍为南海罗村联星潭头村人，其父亲因避“红头军”之乱，才搬往佛山桑园居住。在七岁时，便 拜师入陈华顺门下(陈华顺，为南海拳王梁赞的得意弟子，入门前以钱银找换业为生，人称之为找钱华)。当时陈 华顺年事已高，与叶问年龄相差四十岁之多，故叶问也以华公相称，而陈华顺对此年幼弟子极为疼爱，自收叶问为 徒后，则不再接受任何人士拜门学技，叶问成为陈华顺封门弟子，各年长师兄如吴仲素、陈汝棉、雷汝齐等，对此 年幼师弟，更是照顾有加。华公逝世后，叶问再随师兄吴仲素钻研拳技。到叶问十六岁那年，远离佛山，赴港求学 外文，就读于圣士提反（Stephen 更好翻译为“圣斯德望”因为此词系天主教一圣人名）学校。后随梁壁(梁赞之子)学武。1950年赴香港，在 港九饭店职工总会内传授咏春拳术，从而一举成名。成为真正的功夫良才、伟大的武术家。其徒弟除总会及分会的 会员、港九各地的中国工人外，还有在港的外国留学生。以一人之力，能把咏春拳推广到世界各地，故被门人推举 为一代宗师。叶问其本名为叶继问，是广东佛山人氏，在家族中排行第二，祖居于佛山福贤路，号称“桑园”，为 佛山一大家，桑园内占地甚广，大屋连绵达数条街位，大门在左侧，为佛山著名的茶楼（俗称港式饮茶）“桃园居 ”，隔邻为全佛山最著名的饼食店“公兴隆”，该店以芝麻饼见称。“桑园叶姓”在佛山，可说是无人 不知。 　　中国人在此年代，就被外国人看做东亚病夫，一次叶问经过公园入口处，看到写着：“华人与狗不得入内”的 告示牌，叶问为了民族正义，跳起一脚把告示牌踢了个粉碎，为中国争一口气。还有一次叶问看见七八个外国海员 当街欺辱妇女，一向喜欢打抱不平叶问上前制止，与七八个外国大汉战在一处，但双拳难敌四手，不到几个回合就 渐落下风，就在此时一个青年人大喊一声，挤入围观的人群，同叶问一同合战外国大汉，最终打得七八个外国人人 仰马翻，落荒而逃，此青年人正是梁赞之子梁壁。 　　得知眼前的正是咏春大师梁赞之子，叶问当即拜其为师，因而有缘再随梁壁深造咏春拳技，转眼过了两三年时 光，叶问因不断得到梁壁指点，使咏春拳技能臻入化境。 　　还有一种说法，叶问当初遇见梁壁，是因为梁壁找到叶问，要求与他比武，但无论叶问如何进攻都被他一一化 解。叶问一问，方知原来这是师叔梁壁。 　　民国初年，被誉为中国四大镇的佛山，每年都流行“秋色”游行盛会，以展示特殊的民族手艺，每年游行都是 人山人海，更有来自外乡游客。 　　展示咏春拳在一次的“秋色”游行中，叶问与其表妹数人共观“秋色”游行，突有一当时的军阀排长对其表妹 做出不礼貌行为，当时叶问身穿长衫，薄底礼绒鞋，甚似王孙公子打扮，而且体形并不高大，斯文一表，望似可欺 负，对方便是色胆包天，上前欲对其表妹动手动脚。这时，却被叶问突然标身进步，以惯用的咏春拳手法，来个摊 打齐发，即见对方当场应身倒地，一向欺压百姓的地方军阀，却突然败在一个斯文书生手下，哪肯咽下这口气，更 是恶向胆边生，起身拔枪，当时的叶问，一个转马泻身来了个迅雷不及掩耳的手法，握住对方的左轮手枪，并以其 大拇指的力量，直压左轮手枪的转轮，竟然把左轮手枪轻芯压曲，使其不能发射。在日军攻占佛山后，叶问的过人 功夫，早被日本宪兵队闻悉，欲邀请担任宪兵队的中国武术指导被拒之后，指派武术高手与叶问比武，言明若叶问 被打败则听命差使，叶问在无法拒绝的情况下，只好接受比武，来者却是身材高壮，拳重马健，叶问摆出咏春桩手 ，二字钳羊马，目视对方，却一言不发，诱待兵来将挡，对方抢先出手，以箭标马进迫，叶问即变前锋的桩手为耕 手，耕去对方箭，并同时转身跪马，拿正对方前腿之后膝位，迫使对方突然失去重心，对方虽未中招，却是败相毕 露，叶问也及时收马，一声承让，跳出比武画地，真是高手过招，点到为止。事后，叶问在众人的掩护下逃走，而 这场比武由于时间极短，被人戏称为“不到一分钟”。比武后的叶问，担心激怒日本军阀，暂离佛山，但却暗助我 敌后工作行动开展，抗日战争胜利后，叶问虽有一身武功，却放弃设馆授徒，在县府刑事单位任职，担负除暴安良 工作，曾亲手侦破佛山沙坊之劫案，并在升平路升平戏院内亲擒劫匪，更得上级赏识，在广州市担任南区巡逻队长 一职。 　　1949年，叶问来到香港，由好友李民之推介，认识饭店公会理事长梁相，梁相也是武术爱好者，可说是武 林中人，曾习龙形摩桥，得知叶问为咏春拳陈华顺门人，即行拜师学技，并请叶问在九龙深水的大街饭店公会公开 传授，当时除李民、梁相外，尚有骆耀以及其外甥卢文锦等，不到十人，而李民与叶问早已是世好，可说是亦师亦 友，以后有叶步青、徐尚田......等相继投入，由于求技者日渐增加，当时投入学技的，以九龙巴士同人为 最，由于求学咏春拳技连绵不断，为了有更大的空间和场地，叶问再三迁换场地于九龙利达街、李郑屋村、九龙兴 业大厦，并分出晚间若干时段，到香港荷李活道执教，使咏春拳技推遍九港九每个角落。近来在中国福建南安又有 以咏春拳为基础发展成为自成体系的[鹤拳道]。

[CFT]

Ip Man went to Japan? And worked as a japanese translator? Are you calling him a traitor?It wouldn't have been unusual for a son of a rich family to continue their education in Japan in those days. Heck, even the Father of the Republic Sun Yat-Sen spent time in Japan.

The translator thing is a new one.

[chusauli]

Nothing to get angry about, you state your facts, I state mine with reference to family interviews, goverment text, chinese reports and also common sense

Your statements implicate Ng Chun So to have not taught Ip Man anything
Or Chan Wah Shun to have not shown Ip Man nothing, yet he is officially a listed student.
Or Leung Bik did not exist.
Did Chan Wah Shun, Leung Bik and Ng Chun So only know chong choi? And Ng Chun So tasked to teach Ip Man only teach him Chong Choi? It makes no sense.




I agree with Shadow Warrior. If you think about WCK skills, many are extrapolated and practiced separately from the sets. Combining Jik Chung Chui with Siu Nim Tao, one already has a great deal of the curriculum in WCK, that may be practiced in Chi Sao.

Stupid stories that are passed on still have to be looked at with some wisdom.

[Shadow_warrior8]

It wouldn't have been unusual for a son of a rich family to continue their education in Japan in those days. Heck, even the Father of the Republic Sun Yat-Sen spent time in Japan.

The translator thing is a new one.

Yes thats true
In fact the Jing Wu story is Chen Zhen went to Japan to further his studies only to come back when his Sifu Huo Yuan Jia was killed

However, there is no evidence for Ip Man having gone to japan or having worked for the japanese. In those days, the anti japanese vibes were strong because of hardship and torture. All throughout asia, china, if you were working for the japs, you were a traitor and most not worthy of the term hero together with Yiu Choi and Yuen Kay San.

That is not the way Ip Man is remembered in china or by his descendants historically.

What we see from Ip man, who is said to not even want to teach Bruce lee because of his mixed heritage, working for the japanese looks unlikely.

If he did, he wouldnt have to abandon his home and leave for hongkong.

[hunt1]

"yuen kay san would fight these matches and tell the historian au sui jee to give credit to leung jan because he did not want to attract attention to himself and his family. as a result, leung jan gained a lot of notoriety."

Leung Jan died around 1887 give or take a few years. YKS was born in 1889. So Leung Jan had been dead about 15 or so years before YKS even did his first tan sau.

Reading these stories the first thing that comes to my mind is that we have found the wing chun version of scientology . I see Tom Cruise jumping on a couch and screaming at Matt Lauer how he doesnt know the truth about YKS only he Pacruise knows the truth.

And what is the point. Even if YKS was Superman and SN was HulK it doesnt mean anyone has their skill or abilities. Unless when you get into a fight you hope that YKS or perhaps Xenu will magically come to your aid and infuse you with his super human powers.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Wow...just wow...
I have to ask:
What the **** does this have to do with WC and how effective it is as a fighting art?
Because beyond that, who gives a **** about ANY MA ???

[Pacman]

did not say he did not learn anything besides chung choi. i said the only two things he could use effectively were chung choi and pak sau. i also made an observation that you see those two moves so heavily emphasized in many YM lineages

also, hendrik, records of yuen kay san's achievements are kept by the chinese government. the museum i am talking about in fatsan is the curated by the chinese government. it is not a privately owned museum.

yes there is a private yuen kay san museum just like there is a private yip man museum, but the one i am talking about is equivalent to a kung fu hall of fame, run by the chinese government.

[reneritchie]

BTW - There was never a fight with Wong Fei Hung, it was with a completely different individual with a similar sounding name. I believe Au Soy Jee did include that story in his writings.

[Pacman]

Hi Renee yes you know your facts.

There is a book name "Yuen Kay San 6 1/2 point staff skillfully defeating Wong Fai Long" written by Ou Shui Ji, first, and later he quickly wrote the book again titled" Leung Jan 6 1/2 piont staff defeating Wong Fei Long"

I have a copy of the second book, and only hand copy the first.

Back then the practice of changing a defeated person's name slightly, i.e from Wong Fei Hong to Wong Fei Long, was a very common thing to allow a person to save face.

[Pacman]

"yuen kay san would fight these matches and tell the historian au sui jee to give credit to leung jan because he did not want to attract attention to himself and his family. as a result, leung jan gained a lot of notoriety."

Leung Jan died around 1887 give or take a few years. YKS was born in 1889. So Leung Jan had been dead about 15 or so years before YKS even did his first tan sau.

yes thats the whole point. yuen kay san did not want to a lot of attention on him so he asked the authors to give credit to a dead person.

[Hendrik]

did not say he did not learn anything besides chung choi.


i said the only two things he could use effectively were chung choi and pak sau.


i also made an observation that you see those two moves so heavily emphasized in many YM lineages



1, have you been there at Ip Man' time to witness?

2, some one emphasized something doesnt mean IP Man only could use those effectively.

3, BTW, Some one can use TKD side kick and it is perfectly effective WCK.
Side Kick is just an expression. WCK is what one express.


if Pak Sau and Chung Choi are enough to do the job and it is expressing WCK what is the issue?

However, if one cant identify what is WCK and taking Pak Sau or anything as WCK that is issue.


To be real honest and blunt may be, if one is not at the level to know " Seal, broken structure, and momentum flow control" or the soul of WCK is execute in the same instant while in action, one doesnt know WCK.


for those who knows it and has master it.

Everything is just Comes Accept, Goes return, release and thus forward. Who care what pak sau or tan sau or what TKD Kick. None of those move or shape is WCK without the WCK soul.


I see the Soul of WCK in YKS, SN..... IP Man, his students, and his grandstudents. So, it is absurd to do those accusation above. Whoever make it up that story doesnt know WCK. that is forsure.

how many here can do the soul of WCK? I know Robert Chu can do it, Gary Lam can do it.. and those are IP Man's decendent. Can you do it?




also, hendrik, records of yuen kay san's achievements are kept by the chinese government. the museum i am talking about in fatsan is the curated by the chinese government. it is not a privately owned museum.
yes there is a private yuen kay san museum just like there is a private yip man museum, but the one i am talking about is equivalent to a kung fu hall of fame, run by the chinese government.

I have never doubt about YKS's achievements.

My point is simply, let's not be little Yip Man and recognized his contribution too beside YKS's achievements.

[Hendrik]

Hi Renee yes you know your facts.

There is a book name "Yuen Kay San 6 1/2 point staff skillfully defeating Wong Fai Long" written by Ou Shui Ji, first, and later he quickly wrote the book again titled" Leung Jan 6 1/2 piont staff defeating Wong Fei Long"

I have a copy of the second book, and only hand copy the first.

Back then the practice of changing a defeated person's name slightly, i.e from Wong Fei Hong to Wong Fei Long, was a very common thing to allow a person to save face.



If this type of HIS-STORY could be taken as real then WCK is in big trouble.

BTW. the reason I go EMEI and WHITE CRANE is because I dont buy this type of story even within family. One needs to get official Chinese history records to cross examine.

[Pacman]

If this type of HIS-STORY could be taken as real then WCK is in big trouble.

BTW. the reason I go EMEI and WHITE CRANE is because I dont buy this type of story even within family. One needs to get official Chinese history records to cross examine.

lets forget about the pak sau chung choi debate. no one can prove anything, we can just speculate.

my main point is that yuen kay san's achievements are all documented and recorded by the chinese government. you can choose to believe what i said about SN and YM, either way there is no proof that things did or did not happen. im just sharing my knowledge, i understand if it upsets some people.

[Hendrik]

im just sharing my knowledge, i understand if it upsets some people.

Imho,

If we share it in the way that YKS has his place to be respected, and Ip Man has his value.

There will be no upsets. People knows what is the facts. However, it is human nature to defend their family if it was attacked instead of point out there is issue.


well, we all are learning...

peace

[Pacman]

If this type of HIS-STORY could be taken as real then WCK is in big trouble.

BTW. the reason I go EMEI and WHITE CRANE is because I dont buy this type of story even within family. One needs to get official Chinese history records to cross examine.

what are you talking about regarding emei and white crane?

[Hendrik]

what are you talking about regarding emei and white crane?

The DNA of WCK, why it is design as it is and do what it is; in term of power generation, forms, momentum, strategy....etc. in stead of getting into HIS-STORY over HIS-STORY, un trace able, un confirm able, un endose able , un verify able, by other styles and Chinese official history, which say not much but promotion one's family.

Believe it or not we could have major of WCK well define, sort out, and clearly explain today.

[Pacman]

The DNA of WCK, why it is design as it is and do what it is; in term of power generation, forms, momentum, strategy....etc. in stead of getting into HIS-STORY over HIS-STORY, un trace able, un confirm able, un endose able , un verify able, by other styles and Chinese official history, which say not much but promotion one's family.

Believe it or not we could have major of WCK well define, sort out, and clearly explain today.

you did not really answer my question, are you saying WC comes from emei mountain and white crane?

i am also led to believe that WC has emei roots. its similarities to xing yi, bagua and taiji are quite apparent. there are more similarities to those styles than to shaolin hard styles.

[bennyvt]

Bruce lee didnt learn off yip man. Robert chu isn't a yip man descandant.
If YKS and SN were so great where are all there great students that would be heaps better then all yip man guys.
Wouldn't YM be like 70 when SN went to see him in the 70's. Would he really beat up an old man, or not fight all the guys who were beating everyone in hong kong.
that wouldn't prove it at all. Your story has so many holes in it. Yip chun didn't learn off his dad. He didn't really learn until after he died.
I think your teacher was trying to look good.

[Hendrik]

you did not really answer my question, are you saying WC comes from emei mountain and white crane?

It doesnt matter where it is from, what matter is there are evidence to be verify.



i am also led to believe that WC has emei roots. its similarities to xing yi, bagua and taiji are quite apparent. there are more similarities to those styles than to shaolin hard styles.

IMHO

Believing is not fact.

hard styles shaolin, Xing yi, bagua, and taiji are extremely extremely distance from WCK. They all uses different type of strategy, power generation, and movements.


One needs to have evidence to say something, instead of believing and quessing.

[Pacman]

Bruce lee didnt learn off yip man. Robert chu isn't a yip man descandant.
If YKS and SN were so great where are all there great students that would be heaps better then all yip man guys.
Wouldn't YM be like 70 when SN went to see him in the 70's. Would he really beat up an old man, or not fight all the guys who were beating everyone in hong kong.
that wouldn't prove it at all. Your story has so many holes in it. Yip chun didn't learn off his dad. He didn't really learn until after he died.
I think your teacher was trying to look good.

people talked about stuff in the 70s, things happened much earlier when YKS was alive

never said yip chun learned from his dad. said he came to ask SN to teach him

[Shadow_warrior8]

lets forget about the pak sau chung choi debate. no one can prove anything, we can just speculate.

my main point is that yuen kay san's achievements are all documented and recorded by the chinese government. you can choose to believe what i said about SN and YM, either way there is no proof that things did or did not happen. im just sharing my knowledge, i understand if it upsets some people.


lets forget about the pak sau chung choi debate. no one can prove anything, we can just speculate.


I guess your statement says it all. You are speculating. Why cant you accept the Ip Clan offering tea for a movie storyline and accept it like Yuen Jo Tong has.

As are the legends of leung jan and the legends of ip man, and your posts that speak of ip man, his family, yiu choi are all WRONG when we look at the written history recorded IN CHINA. It sounds like someone who is jealous of the fame of Ip man(can anyone dispute he is famous? or bruce lee) and is spreading rumours after they have passed on for 30 years

I have yet to see 1 article or 1 video of those things you mentioned. You would be more conviencing if you had even 1 mention somewhere. And you have no mention of the historical data, videos, chinese text I posted which reveal the holes of your statements about Ip Man's life in fatshan.

As for Yuen Kay San accomplisements being detailed by the chinese goverment I am going to get on it. Because I am a fan of his lineage and yiu choi, mainland china, well wingchun in general and I embrace the diversity. Its was their intepretation and with that, will lead generations to later develop themselves and maybe even better the art, if its possible

If you are looking to speak up for Yuen Kay San and family, I suggest you start from a position of respect and gratitude. That seems to be how these 3 heros of Yuen, Yiu and Ip are remembered in China and speaks of their deep ties.

If Ip man didnt leave to go to hongkong would half of the world even know what wingchun is, and some big parts are attributed to Bruce Lee of course.

[Shadow_warrior8]

http://www.wingchun.si/yipman.htm

And yes, Senior Hendrik, I have started learning white crane as part of my study into wingchun amongst the other internal arts we have talked before

White crane definately influenced wing chun in a big way.

[goju]

Wow...just wow...
I have to ask:
What the **** does this have to do with WC and how effective it is as a fighting art?
Because beyond that, who gives a **** about ANY MA ???

its still abit odd for me to grasp exactly why some people are so obsessed with the past of their art whether it be who kicked whos ass or who kicked ass at all or who learned this supposed technique

i mean what the **** do any of these people who lived waaaaaay back then have to do with any one alive practicing an art to day?

[Shadow_warrior8]

its still abit odd for me to grasp exactly why some people are so obsessed with the past of their art whether it be who kicked whos ass or who kicked ass at all or who learned this supposed technique

i mean what the **** do any of these people who lived waaaaaay back then have to do with any one alive practicing an art to day?

In the chinese arts, respect the teacher and the way(history and culture) is part of Mo Dak
If we are only concerned with kicking people's ass, forget asian cultures because they honour their teachers and believe in remember the source of the water you drink. We dont need martial arts to kick someone ass, we just need intent and a weapon, human or artificial.

Since I do boxing, I find they do too, honour the heros. When we look backwards in gratefulness, sometimes we understand what we are doing in the present.

[Shadow_warrior8]

http://www.hudong.com/wiki/%E9%98%AE%E5%A5%87%E5%B1%B1%E5%92%8F%E6%98%A5%E6%8 B%B3

[goju]

i dont think quarreling over who did this or that and who learned from who is honouring your teacher

its being petty in fact


who cares if certain people acknowledge their supposed accomplishments?

they know they did them( if they did do them) so im sure when they were alive they rested easy knowing that and didnt concern themselves with what others either did or would think in the future

and neither should you

[Shadow_warrior8]

i dont think quarreling over who did this or that and who learned from who is honouring your teacher

its being petty in fact


who cares if certain people acknowledge their supposed accomplishments?

they know they did them( if they did do them) so im sure when they were alive they rested easy knowing that and didnt concern themselves with what others either did or would think in the future

and neither should you

If we follow your opinion should the Yuen descendants and Yiu descendants keep quiet? Or the Ip descendants when untruths are told to tarnish his name?

You are welcomed to your opinion. I will state things as the chinese martial culture requires

Changing history and rubbing their name in the mud after a lifetime of devotion to the art is certainly not honouring them.

[Shadow_warrior8]

阮奇山一脉的咏春拳

A nice old article on Master Yuen

http://www.ystwingchun.com/bbs/read.php?tid=54

[goju]

If we follow your opinion should the Yuen descendants and Yiu descendants keep quiet? Or the Ip descendants when untruths are told to tarnish his name?

You are welcomed to your opinion. I will state things as the chinese martial culture requires

Changing history and rubbing their name in the mud after a lifetime of devotion to the art is certainly not honouring them.

i"ll tell ya this first of all. The almost sure fire way to not get respect is to demand it.
:D

Nor would i as a teacher be proud of my students if they resorted to fighting with each other over bits of history niether side can really prove. And lets face it how many people can prove a **** thing in here? Not just regarding wc history either but pretty much every martial art history and its legends


honour your teacher by training hard and spreading his teachings not demanding people acknowledge him, he knows he was a good martial artist practioner and so do you so just leave it at that and dont bother with the rest.

[Shadow_warrior8]

i"ll tell ya this first of all. The almost sure fire way to not get respect is to demand it.
:D

Nor would i as a teacher be proud of my students if they resorted to fighting with each other over bits of history niether side can really prove. And lets face it how many people can prove a **** thing in here? Not just regarding wc history either but pretty much every martial art history and its legends


honour your teacher by training hard and spreading his teachings not demanding people acknowledge him, he knows he was a good martial artist practioner and so do you so just leave it at that and dont bother with the rest.

If you feel so strong about it, go and tell the Yuen and Yiu Family who are insisting restitution

I am talking about martial traditions, mo dak and the chinese way of doing things, that are pillars of traditional kung fu.

Dont pollute it with your own principles and tell people, lineage holders and descendants who have hundreds and some thousands of years of tradition to follow your ways.

There are official records kept by families, goverments, museums, told in interviews and videos because of modern technology etc.... Thats how you get to know anything about anything information from reliable sources, and verified. So if based on your theory nothing can be proved then really, how do you get by your day?

And I am pretty sure the people in china and asia train hard, as you do.
As people in wingchun have very prominent skilled people, who have done exactly that.

So they have one up, martial virtues and values.
Respect the teacher and the way
One day as a teacher, one lifetime as a father

This is not about blind loyalty, its about respect and honouring the source of the water you drink. (and we do so irregardless of whether the teacher honours back, we do our part)

Its not about demanding respect, its about allowing your ancestors to not have their good name tarnished.
I think in the west, its called defamation and law suits are fought every day all over the world

You can have the last word on "your" values. I am presenting this case, as it is with information from all sides. You are talking your own thing with nothing to reference from either clan.

[goju]

I would tell them that or anyone else if i had the oppurtunity too.

Those traditions aren't anything unique to "the chinese way" rather youll see that in basically every culture around the world.

the things is these ways are outdated.

For one typically these disputes were settled by two people fighting to the death and i certainly cant go around lopping people noggins off with a sword because my great great great great great great great great grandfather cathasaigh did it in ancient ireland when someone besmirched his good name.


In this day and age people arent going to like you, People are going to speak ill of you, they may lie about you, and guess what? they are gonna get away with it and you respond to it like a civilized mature adult by ignoring it.

"Dont pollute it with your own principles and tell people, lineage holders and descendants who have hundreds and some thousands of years of tradition to follow your ways."

i like any other dedicated martial artist hold hundreds of years of tradition with me so its not like im speaking from the perspective of an outsider :rolleyes:


"There are official records kept by families, goverments, museums, told in interviews and videos because of modern technology etc.... Thats how you get to know anything about anything information from reliable sources, and verified. So if based on your theory nothing can be proved then really, how do you get by your day? "

I never said nothing can be proved and if everything was this well documented then how come like with almost all martial history discussions this is coming down to people being taught a variety of conflicting stories and not willing to budge over it?


I would like to think my ancestors are resting in peace not concerning themselves with the petty squabbles of the living wouldnt you?

I'm merely using logic . Tradtions are fine and i have my own that are native to my culture but some are either outdated or silly to begin with and should thus be changed or tossed out entirely.

Think about it what exactly is this accompishing?

Has any one proved anything?

no

Has anyone gotten their way?

no

in reality the arguements just make it look like both parties are stretching the truth and distorting facts( even if they arent) which only makes you and your master look bad in the end

[Shadow_warrior8]

in reality the arguements just make it look like both parties are stretching the truth and distorting facts( even if they arent) which only makes you and your master look bad in the end

What does your retort show? Nothing. Western values to look at chinese things is like saying sashimi is foul because its not cooked.

If you think martial values and cultures are outdated, its speaks volumes already.

You are not qualified to talk about my master. As I am not of yours.

The families of those involved feel it honours their ancestors to speak up for them, who are you to judge them? You are an outsider for this.

[chusauli]

Many times the Chinese culture does not reflect well in modern life and what the two of you are doing is looking at it from each other's ethnocentric POV.

I think Shadow Warrior to be an old fashioned Chinese martial artist - it is a good trait to honor the ancestors, and know the truth of those who came before us. I am happy with all he has shared with us.

As for Goju, “Those who do not learn the lessons of history,” famously remarked the American philosopher George Santayana, “are doomed to repeat its mistakes.” Its still a lesson worthwhile repeating.

[Hendrik]

http://www.wingchun.si/yipman.htm

And yes, Senior Hendrik, I have started learning white crane as part of my study into wingchun amongst the other internal arts we have talked before

White crane definately influenced wing chun in a big way.


take a look.
http://cforum.cari.com.my/viewthread.php?tid=1999659&extra=page%3D1&page=4

[sanjuro_ronin]

The families of those involved feel it honours their ancestors to speak up for them, who are you to judge them? You are an outsider for this.
The moment something goes public and on a internet discussion forum, NO ONE is an outside anymore.
People wanna air their dirty laundry in public then they should not complain when people say it stinks.

[goju]

What does your retort show? Nothing. Western values to look at chinese things is like saying sashimi is foul because its not cooked.

i think you misunderstood by point and again assume this is something unique to chinese culture. I'm not imposing western vlaues on anything.



You are not qualified to talk about my master. As I am not of yours.
Qualified? IF anyone has thoughts and opinions then they are allowed to express them about anyone or anything.

You or anyone else can talk about my teachers or my teachers teacher all you want it means little to me or them.


The families of those involved feel it honours their ancestors to speak up for them, who are you to judge them? You are an outsider for this.


What Sanjuro said. You also realize stuff like this is making the art look bad don't you? i mean its perfectly understandable how someone curious about this style could be completely put off by it after seeing all the back and forth squabbling. that seems to be common.

[Wayfaring]

What Sanjuro said. You also realize stuff like this is making the art look bad don't you? i mean its perfectly understandable how someone curious about this style could be completely put off by it after seeing all the back and forth squabbling. that seems to be common.

I'm coming to the conclusion that the majority of the tradition of "having tea" is all about just that. The squabbling. You think the old "masters" didn't do that?

[goju]

I'm coming to the conclusion that the majority of the tradition of "having tea" is all about just that. The squabbling. You think the old "masters" didn't do that?


Thats likely dead on. Or people are distorting this Da mo by twisting it's words so they can claim it allows them to engage in such silly petty arguements.

[Pacman]

you need to get some of your facts straight

the meeting was an apology meeting, not just toasting someone for respect. in the yangcheng newspaper the title of the article was:

《叶问前传》被指污蔑咏春派 道歉会没开始差点开打

which talks about how there was an apology meeting because the yip man 2 movie is slanderous to yuen kay san

i cannot produce an article from the time of yip man detailing yip man skills. thats the whole point. because of your skill level and level of fame you won't see an article about hendrik santos or shadow warrior's skills either.

you are a big WC researcher, as is hendrik. then ask yourself this--why does YM wing chun have Yuen Kay San's signature all over it?

People say YM learned from Chan Wah Shun and then Leung Bik. Why then does the YM lineage have 3 forms (Siu Lim Tao, Chum Kiu, Biu Jee) and why is their 6.5 point staff have a dozen or so movements? If YM had really learned from Chan Wah Shun then his wing chun would have 12 forms (some stuff we don't see that often such as Dai Lim Tao) and the 6.5 pole would have 108 movements, which was the original WC at the time.

Yuen Kay San simplified redundancy and eliminated things he thought were not useful--reduced the WC he learned which into the three forms. he also minimized the 108 movements of the 6.5 pole.

Chan Wah Shun's grandson wrote a book on wing chun kuen in Chinese, where it details the 12 forms etc!

Leung Jan later simplified what he knew into 22 san sau and we know that as Kulo WC. I think their staff is 3.5 point too.


I guess your statement says it all. You are speculating. Why cant you accept the Ip Clan offering tea for a movie storyline and accept it like Yuen Jo Tong has.

As are the legends of leung jan and the legends of ip man, and your posts that speak of ip man, his family, yiu choi are all WRONG when we look at the written history recorded IN CHINA. It sounds like someone who is jealous of the fame of Ip man(can anyone dispute he is famous? or bruce lee) and is spreading rumours after they have passed on for 30 years

I have yet to see 1 article or 1 video of those things you mentioned. You would be more conviencing if you had even 1 mention somewhere. And you have no mention of the historical data, videos, chinese text I posted which reveal the holes of your statements about Ip Man's life in fatshan.

As for Yuen Kay San accomplisements being detailed by the chinese goverment I am going to get on it. Because I am a fan of his lineage and yiu choi, mainland china, well wingchun in general and I embrace the diversity. Its was their intepretation and with that, will lead generations to later develop themselves and maybe even better the art, if its possible

If you are looking to speak up for Yuen Kay San and family, I suggest you start from a position of respect and gratitude. That seems to be how these 3 heros of Yuen, Yiu and Ip are remembered in China and speaks of their deep ties.

If Ip man didnt leave to go to hongkong would half of the world even know what wingchun is, and some big parts are attributed to Bruce Lee of course.

[Shadow_warrior8]

you need to get some of your facts straight

the meeting was an apology meeting, not just toasting someone for respect. in the yangcheng newspaper the title of the article was:

《叶问前传》被指污蔑咏春派 道歉会没开始差点开打

which talks about how there was an apology meeting because the yip man 2 movie is slanderous to yuen kay san

i cannot produce an article from the time of yip man detailing yip man skills. thats the whole point. because of your skill level and level of fame you won't see an article about hendrik santos or shadow warrior's skills either.

you are a big WC researcher, as is hendrik. then ask yourself this--why does YM wing chun have Yuen Kay San's signature all over it?

People say YM learned from Chan Wah Shun and then Leung Bik. Why then does the YM lineage have 3 forms (Siu Lim Tao, Chum Kiu, Biu Jee) and why is their 6.5 point staff have a dozen or so movements? If YM had really learned from Chan Wah Shun then his wing chun would have 12 forms (some stuff we don't see that often such as Dai Lim Tao) and the 6.5 pole would have 108 movements, which was the original WC at the time.

Yuen Kay San simplified redundancy and eliminated things he thought were not useful--reduced the WC he learned which into the three forms. he also minimized the 108 movements of the 6.5 pole.

Chan Wah Shun's grandson wrote a book on wing chun kuen in Chinese, where it details the 12 forms etc!

Leung Jan later simplified what he knew into 22 san sau and we know that as Kulo WC. I think their staff is 3.5 point too.

My facts are right, I dont know about yours. And dont make it about me, we wouldnt see no article about your skills either, and unfortunately, none on the topic you are putting forward either.

I am not a big researcher and many here have done much more over the years. I do read chinese, write and speak cantonese and english. So when things dont add up in translation, I will speak my mind.

1. I never debated it was not an apology meeting. Of course it was, it wasnt yum cha over dim sum, cantonese style. Never once did I say it was toasting someone out of respect. Checkley Sim did offer tea multiple times. I can read chinese.

2. The movie was not Ip Man 2, it was Ip Man the Legend is born,
This title means 《叶问前传》被指污蔑咏春派 道歉会没开始差点开打
Ip Man the legend is born is accused of slander, apology meeting didnt get to start and they nearly came to blows.
I posted this article right at the beginning in words for all to see and the reference. Its all very transparent. The words do not amount to GM Ip Chun saying Leung Bik doesnt exist and that he was not telling the truth. Nowhere does it say GM Ip Chun say, he confess that Leung Bik didnt teach Ip Man.
And for that matter, how about asking GM Ip Ching? Do you presume china would not verify the documents of Leung Jan before putting it in Ip Man Tong? As they do for all musuems?

3. Who says is Yuen Kay San signature over Ip?
Ask those who have studied Yuen and Ip and then ask them. Is the energy the same? Why do we have Yuen Jo Tong doing alot of chin na and throws from Fung Siu Ching?
I find the applications of Yuen family forms very profound and they have really changed the way I look at wingchun. However, in the lineage of Leung Bik to Ip Man, he was said to have taught him about energy being a smaller man so the focus is on just enough energy? Looking at Yuen Family art, Kulo Lineage, Ban Chung, the depth is amazing. But they are different fruits.

What if someone said to you Ip Signature over Yuen? Can you accept Master Yuen picking up a thing or two from Ip Man? Or that Kwok fu said, when Yuen came round he was asked by Ip Man to stop practicing so Yuen would not learn what he was teaching? Or that Kwok Fu said in his interview that when Yuen came round, he had an exchange with Kwok Fu and they equalled each other, and later Yuen told everyone that Kwok Fu was very good. He also mentioned Yuen was very fast, and ruthless.
C'mon, we have heard these stories, the reason why we dont go around telling it as "Truths" is because, its disrespectful to Master Yuen and we cant say for sure. Its a story much like all of your stories. Your stories are clearly all biased against Ip Man, and that is not how they are remembered by the families or in China

If your basis is that because they have 3 sets therefore its from Yuen, I like to inform you, so does Pan Nam, and even the lineage from Cheung Way Bok, has shil lim tao, chum kil and bil jee, and thats Ban Chung and many others.
So at what point did the 3 sets come in? This research has already been done.
Was it just one set before?

Chan Wah Shun lineage also has sil lim tao, chum kil, bil jee
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFT2JO_sMJk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hobs0Kh-f7I

Since you like wingchunpedia so much, here's a link Yiu Choi clearly list that they learn from Yuen Chai Wan
http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.YiuChoi
Here's the official chinese record
And they have Sil Lim Tao, Chum Kil, Bil Jee and its not from Yuen Kay San.

http://www.gaopeigen.com/asp-bin/gb/?page=8&class=36&id=59

Happy to learn something new, thats what research is about but when your facts are wrong even with wingchunpedia and the families official record, its tough to continue unless we see something more solid.

One of the things said to my sifu when he was passed on the lineage in Bai Si, was that Let not the name of Ip Man be tarnished. This has been passed on to us. And we intend to do our part in upholding this tradition. As do the Masters and descendants in China.

[Shadow_warrior8]

Many times the Chinese culture does not reflect well in modern life and what the two of you are doing is looking at it from each other's ethnocentric POV.

I think Shadow Warrior to be an old fashioned Chinese martial artist - it is a good trait to honor the ancestors, and know the truth of those who came before us. I am happy with all he has shared with us.

As for Goju, “Those who do not learn the lessons of history,” famously remarked the American philosopher George Santayana, “are doomed to repeat its mistakes.” Its still a lesson worthwhile repeating.

Thank you Senior Robert, your words are kind
I am also very modern when doing boxing, muay thai and BJJ.
However, in chinese martial arts, I have been taught and found it to be true, to have a seperate folder and follow the operating instructions till I can master the entire thing. Hence Hok, Lien, Fa- Learn, Practice, Internalise.

In Ip Man 2, the action is not so interesting but the moral and martial virtue in that story surpasses what the other Ip Man Movie does in other things

We look to the past to understand the present.

[Hendrik]

even the lineage from Cheung Way Bok, has shil lim tao, chum kil and bil jee, and thats Ban Chung and many others.



Yik Kam's Cho Gar's Ban Chung has Chum Kil and Bil Jee?


There is a different between
Cheung Way Boh renaming some of his sets Chum Kil / Bil Jee ;
and Yik Kam's cho Gar's Ban Chung WCK has particular set called Chum Kil and Bil Jee.


Things got to be iron out which is which. IMHO.

[Shadow_warrior8]

Yik Kam's Cho Gar's Ban Chung has Chum Kil and Bil Jee?


There is a different between
Cheung Way Boh renaming some of his sets Chum Kil / Bil Jee ;
and Yik Kam's cho Gar's Ban Chung WCK has particular set called Chum Kil and Bil Jee.


Things got to be iron out which is which. IMHO.

Yes senior hendrik, but the point is, a master who has learnt what he has, can decide to remember it as he deems. Its his art.

Master Cheung doesnt call it Yik Kam I dont think. I never learnt any Chum Kil, Bil Jee in that lineage. And in China, as my friends there tell me its only 1 set- Shaolin Tao.

And Leung Jan could make it 22 hands or 12 hands.

Hence the logic that because its 3 sets, between 3 friends who were close has to be because it was taught by master yuen is clearly a flawed notion
http://old.heshan.gov.cn/html/2007/03/20070320174136-1.htm
here Heshan Kulo Goverment clearly states Leung Jan lineage via Chan Wah Shun also had Sil Lim Tao, Chum Kil, Bil Jee

I wonder why Cheung Bo Lineage taught by Master Mak Yiu Ming has Sil Lim Tao Chum Kil, Bil Jee and his Cheung Bo San Sik. In his interview he doesnt mention any trace to Master Yuen.
But Cheung Bo taught Master Sum Nung. Needs to be looked at more in detail.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70oeMiRJ71k

Here is an interesting story about Master Yuen
http://www.discuss.com.hk/redirect.php?tid=8732171&goto=newpost

阮奇山（1887-1956年），享年69歲，隨父居佛山朝觀里，其父阮寵明在民國初期從事化工顏料業，於佛山永安路開店。因 阮奇山排行第五，人稱"阮老楂"。小時候，阮父以重金禮聘霍保全教授阮家兄弟蛇形拳術。後隨年老的馮少青學習紅船永春拳。可惜只有短暫時間 。

1907年左右，阮奇山追隨吳仲素在普君墟綫香街開設之醫館學習詠春拳。很多富家子弟，如有記盲公餅何兆初 ，李眾勝堂少東李賜豪，英聚茶樓司庫梁福初等也慕名求學。他及姚才也在此時加入。

在廿,三十年代，阮奇山時常留連於姚才姚林在石路頭街開設之俱樂部（大煙館）中。

[LSWCTN1]

Master Cheung doesnt call it Yik Kam I dont think. I never learnt any Chum Kil, Bil Jee in that lineage. And in China, as my friends there tell me its only 1 set- Shaolin Tao.


a point that i have been trying to make for quite some time, and been shot down in flames many, many times over...

[Shadow_warrior8]

I am no authority in that lineage, so I claim nothing
Senior Hendrik is the authority for his lineage and his statements have its weight
and standing.
Maybe I wasnt taught the advanced form. It was 1 long form combing sil lim tao, chum kil, bil jee.

However this is what I have seen 少林头
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7exQZ1UeL9w&p=9A00A8BF590C9944&playnext=1&index=38

Thought I would share.

But I digress, the title here is apt, Profound respect to GM Ip Chun, Checkley Sim and also highest respect rendered to Master Yuen Kay San and Yiu Choi as the 3 heros of Fatshan. Thats the point, respect to the ancestors for their efforts.

[CFT]

a point that i have been trying to make for quite some time, and been shot down in flames many, many times over...That there is a coded reference to the Shaolin temple in the name of the 1st form?

But surely this view is based on wonky Romanisation.

The "shao" and "lin" in the Shaolin temple means "young forest".

Lets address the Cantonese pronunciation and romanization first:

"Siu" can mean "little" or "young" depends on what character you use for "siu".
"Nim" can be thought/idea - frequently pronounced as "Lim" due to linguistic phenomenon called "lazy tones" (laan yum).
If your lineage uses the term "Lin" for the "training" character, I can see why you might make the Shaolin connection. But the romanization is not consistent. You would need to use "Lum" for forest.


If you look at the Mandarin pinyin there is less scope for ambiguity:

Little is "xiao", young is "shao",
Idea/thought is "nian",
Training is "lian",
Even less scope for making the Shaolin connection.


Just seen Shadow_warrior8's post. So that family do use the term "Shaolin/Siu Lum tao".

[t_niehoff]

Good post, Chee.

[t_niehoff]

you need to get some of your facts straight


You should take your own advice.



the meeting was an apology meeting, not just toasting someone for respect. in the yangcheng newspaper the title of the article was:

《叶问前传》被指污蔑咏春派 道歉会没开始差点开打

which talks about how there was an apology meeting because the yip man 2 movie is slanderous to yuen kay san


This was dealt with and illustrates how you have your facts wrong.



i cannot produce an article from the time of yip man detailing yip man skills. thats the whole point. because of your skill level and level of fame you won't see an article about hendrik santos or shadow warrior's skills either.


So, your reasoning is that because an article doesn't exist lauding someone's skill, they can't have skill?



you are a big WC researcher, as is hendrik. then ask yourself this--why does YM wing chun have Yuen Kay San's signature all over it?


It doesn't.

There is no doubt that YKS was senior to Yip. Nor is there any doubt that both YKS and Sum Nung were highly skilled and recognized for that. And it well-known that YKS and Yip were "friends", and that Yip trained with YKS/Sum. Certainly Yip took things from that training, including the luk sao platform of chi sao that YKS/SN created.



People say YM learned from Chan Wah Shun and then Leung Bik.


I think if we look at Yip's own words, we see that he credits Chan and Ng Chung So (and his other sihings) for his training, and doesn't mention anything about Leung Bik. That was just a story created -- like many others -- by Lee Man in this case.



Why then does the YM lineage have 3 forms (Siu Lim Tao, Chum Kiu, Biu Jee)


Because the three forms were created by Wong Wah Bo, who passed them on to Leung Jan (who taught CWS) and Fok Bo Cheung (who taught YKS).



and why is their 6.5 point staff have a dozen or so movements?


Because since you only have 7 "points", how many movements do you think you need to teach them?



If YM had really learned from Chan Wah Shun then his wing chun would have 12 forms (some stuff we don't see that often such as Dai Lim Tao) and the 6.5 pole would have 108 movements, which was the original WC at the time.


Where do you get this nonsense? All of the people who learned from CWS, have "only" the 3 forms -- unless they expanded their curriculum.



Yuen Kay San simplified redundancy and eliminated things he thought were not useful--reduced the WC he learned which into the three forms. he also minimized the 108 movements of the 6.5 pole.


No. This is false.



Chan Wah Shun's grandson wrote a book on wing chun kuen in Chinese, where it details the 12 forms etc!


Yes, it is well-known that Chan Miu Yin added much to his curriculum from local southern fist. This is not unusual.



Leung Jan later simplified what he knew into 22 san sau and we know that as Kulo WC. I think their staff is 3.5 point too.

Again, not completely accurate.

You need to do a lot more "research". and it helps if you don't do it from a lineage-centric perspective.

[Hendrik]

but the point is, a master who has learnt what he has, can decide to remember it as he deems. Its his art.

Master Cheung doesnt call it Yik Kam I dont think.

I never learnt any Chum Kil, Bil Jee in that lineage. And in China, as my friends there tell me its only 1 set- Shaolin Tao.


I approve of everyone speculation and their own naming ......etc.

However, are those speculation contribute to solving the issue or contribute to more confusion, that is what they need to face.

[Pacman]

regarding Yiu Choy and Chan Wah Shun...

the book is call "Wing Chun Kuen" by Hon Quang Gow a student of Chan Wah Shun's great grandson, there is many in the series. You will see that they have more than 3 forms and 108 movements. Everyone today likes to coincide with YKS' 3 forms and reduce--it is much simpler.



My facts are right, I dont know about yours. And dont make it about me, we wouldnt see no article about your skills either, and unfortunately, none on the topic you are putting forward either.

I am not a big researcher and many here have done much more over the years. I do read chinese, write and speak cantonese and english. So when things dont add up in translation, I will speak my mind.

1. I never debated it was not an apology meeting. Of course it was, it wasnt yum cha over dim sum, cantonese style. Never once did I say it was toasting someone out of respect. Checkley Sim did offer tea multiple times. I can read chinese.

2. The movie was not Ip Man 2, it was Ip Man the Legend is born,
This title means 《叶问前传》被指污蔑咏春派 道歉会没开始差点开打
Ip Man the legend is born is accused of slander, apology meeting didnt get to start and they nearly came to blows.
I posted this article right at the beginning in words for all to see and the reference. Its all very transparent. The words do not amount to GM Ip Chun saying Leung Bik doesnt exist and that he was not telling the truth. Nowhere does it say GM Ip Chun say, he confess that Leung Bik didnt teach Ip Man.
And for that matter, how about asking GM Ip Ching? Do you presume china would not verify the documents of Leung Jan before putting it in Ip Man Tong? As they do for all musuems?

3. Who says is Yuen Kay San signature over Ip?
Ask those who have studied Yuen and Ip and then ask them. Is the energy the same? Why do we have Yuen Jo Tong doing alot of chin na and throws from Fung Siu Ching?
I find the applications of Yuen family forms very profound and they have really changed the way I look at wingchun. However, in the lineage of Leung Bik to Ip Man, he was said to have taught him about energy being a smaller man so the focus is on just enough energy? Looking at Yuen Family art, Kulo Lineage, Ban Chung, the depth is amazing. But they are different fruits.

What if someone said to you Ip Signature over Yuen? Can you accept Master Yuen picking up a thing or two from Ip Man? Or that Kwok fu said, when Yuen came round he was asked by Ip Man to stop practicing so Yuen would not learn what he was teaching? Or that Kwok Fu said in his interview that when Yuen came round, he had an exchange with Kwok Fu and they equalled each other, and later Yuen told everyone that Kwok Fu was very good. He also mentioned Yuen was very fast, and ruthless.
C'mon, we have heard these stories, the reason why we dont go around telling it as "Truths" is because, its disrespectful to Master Yuen and we cant say for sure. Its a story much like all of your stories. Your stories are clearly all biased against Ip Man, and that is not how they are remembered by the families or in China

If your basis is that because they have 3 sets therefore its from Yuen, I like to inform you, so does Pan Nam, and even the lineage from Cheung Way Bok, has shil lim tao, chum kil and bil jee, and thats Ban Chung and many others.
So at what point did the 3 sets come in? This research has already been done.
Was it just one set before?

Chan Wah Shun lineage also has sil lim tao, chum kil, bil jee
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFT2JO_sMJk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hobs0Kh-f7I

Since you like wingchunpedia so much, here's a link Yiu Choi clearly list that they learn from Yuen Chai Wan
http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.YiuChoi
Here's the official chinese record
And they have Sil Lim Tao, Chum Kil, Bil Jee and its not from Yuen Kay San.

http://www.gaopeigen.com/asp-bin/gb/?page=8&class=36&id=59

Happy to learn something new, thats what research is about but when your facts are wrong even with wingchunpedia and the families official record, its tough to continue unless we see something more solid.

One of the things said to my sifu when he was passed on the lineage in Bai Si, was that Let not the name of Ip Man be tarnished. This has been passed on to us. And we intend to do our part in upholding this tradition. As do the Masters and descendants in China.

[Hendrik]

My view is every one seems like to be a grand master and write all kind of books or article or making movies to promote his view.

However, what is WCK? up to now since YKS's generation how many could describe it clearly disregards of all the Books, seminals, web arguement.....etc.

See, if one doesnt know what it is, disregard of how many sets or how many books, there is no punch line but all kind of scattering and even confusing /contradictory information.

Up to now, most what have read here are just he says she says and HIS-STORY. what do these contribute to? more confusion.

[Yoshiyahu]

@pacman what do u think about the Big Idea or Dai Lim Tao?

What are the 22 san shou called and what are the 12 forms called?

is there any video footage of them?

I would love to see it?

Dai Lim Tao looks way different than the other three forms. It almost looks more Shaolin!

[Pacman]

Because the three forms were created by Wong Wah Bo, who passed them on to Leung Jan (who taught CWS) and Fok Bo Cheung (who taught YKS).


i dont want to spend too much time on this, but then why does YKS' brother's lineage have more than the 3 forms and staff movements? that suggests what he learned was not the standard 3 forms we know today

[Pacman]

terrence i cant believe i am bothering to respond to you because for a lawyer you are incredibly unintelligent yet believe you know everything.

i will just respond to your mischaracterizations of my arguments


So, your reasoning is that because an article doesn't exist lauding someone's skill, they can't have skill?

no my point is that i cannot produce a document detailing what yip man does and does not know. its like trying to produce a document of what terrence niehoff knows. why the hell would anyone write a document about terrence niehoff? therefore we can only work off of other clues, such as terrence niehoff says he knows all about all forms of WCK and fighting because robert chu ripped him off of thousands of dollars and read a book.



Yes, it is well-known that Chan Miu Yin added much to his curriculum from local southern fist. This is not unusual.

WCK even since the red boat had a lot more forms. even YKS and his brother were taught this type of WCK. this is why even YKS's brother's lineage has a lot more 'material' even though they had the same teacher. YKS was the one who simplified to the three forms we know

[chusauli]

I remember seeing early Vietnamese WCK from Yuen Chai Wan's branch in the 1980's and it had one Siu Lien Tao (very similar to YKS), did not have Chum Kiu or Biu Jee, but had some additional hand sets and 5 animals Hei Gung sets. The 6.5 point staff was not similar at all to either the YKS or Yip Man version. They were known for their Gim set and had a set of Yee Ji Cern Dao.

Yip Man's 6.5 point pole set and the YKS 6.5 point pole set are very close. The 3 forms are very close. If you look at Leung Sheung's 3 WCK sets, it looks very much like YKS WCK, sans the Ngoi Huen Sao and the circular moves in CK and BJ in YKS.

YKS has 3 forms, a unique Jong set, 6.5 point pole and Yee Ji Cern Dao. The Yee Ji Dao does not come from Fung Siu Ching or Kok Bo Chuen - but may have been extracted from Cheung Bo's teachings.

Both Yip Man and YKS 6.5 point pole are dissimilar to Siu Lam Weng Chun's 6.5 point pole which I studied from Andreas Hoffman, whigh is descended from Fung Siu Ching. The latter form is more complex and richer in variation.

The Futshan WCK that Yip Man taught bears a strong resemblance to YKDS WCK, but not as soft and rounded.

[chusauli]

no my point is that i cannot produce a document detailing what yip man does and does not know. its like trying to produce a document of what terrence niehoff knows. why the hell would anyone write a document about terrence niehoff? therefore we can only work off of other clues, such as terrence niehoff says he knows all about all forms of WCK and fighting because robert chu ripped him off of thousands of dollars and read a book.

Pacman, you are talking out of your a$$. This type of talk is unwarranted and does not involve me. If you have a beef with Terence, take it up with him. Perhaps you would like me to talk about Sum Nung or Tom Wong in the same apathetic manner?



WCK even since the red boat had a lot more forms. even YKS and his brother were taught this type of WCK. this is why even YKS's brother's lineage has a lot more 'material' even though they had the same teacher. YKS was the one who simplified to the three forms we know

YKS' brother changed the system when he went to SEA. Just take a look yourself. Both brothers learned from the same teachers. You can see the differences.

As for Chan Yiu Min, he also changed the system and added a lot to the system.

More than the 3 forms (but Yik Kam has 1 set that embodies the teachings of the 3 forms and some Jong), Jong, pole and knives, you are looking at add ons. Pseudo or prototype WCK forms on the redboat may have existed, but they were additions of WCK with something else. WCK has a unique power signature and training methodology which characterizes it. That's why "lost" or "newly re-discovered" forms can be taken with a grain of salt.

[chusauli]

I wonder why Cheung Bo Lineage taught by Master Mak Yiu Ming has Sil Lim Tao Chum Kil, Bil Jee and his Cheung Bo San Sik. In his interview he doesnt mention any trace to Master Yuen.
But Cheung Bo taught Master Sum Nung. Needs to be looked at more in detail.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70oeMiRJ71k



A look at their sets and you know it has the trademarks/signature moves of YKS/Sum Nung WCK.

[bennyvt]

Ive seen the grandson of chan wah shun. He's a joke. He just goes off the fact that he is from that family.
I ask again, where are all the great YKS guys that could beat us all.
As I said before sounds like a little baby crying that someone else is more famous then them. Suck it up dude.

[Pacman]

I remember seeing early Vietnamese WCK from Yuen Chai Wan's branch in the 1980's and it had one Siu Lien Tao (very similar to YKS), did not have Chum Kiu or Biu Jee, but had some additional hand sets and 5 animals Hei Gung sets. The 6.5 point staff was not similar at all to either the YKS or Yip Man version. They were known for their Gim set and had a set of Yee Ji Cern Dao.

yes exactly the point. YKS and his brother did not learn the simplified version we know today from their two WC teachers. YKS simplified


Yip Man's 6.5 point pole set and the YKS 6.5 point pole set are very close. The 3 forms are very close. If you look at Leung Sheung's 3 WCK sets, it looks very much like YKS WCK, sans the Ngoi Huen Sao and the circular moves in CK and BJ in YKS.

exactly my point again. this is what I am talking about YKS signature.



Both Yip Man and YKS 6.5 point pole are dissimilar to Siu Lam Weng Chun's 6.5 point pole which I studied from Andreas Hoffman, whigh is descended from Fung Siu Ching. The latter form is more complex and richer in variation.

bingo again. like i have been saying all along, the WC that YKS learned was more complex. he was the one who simplified.

The book I mentioned before is evidence of the previously complex WCK of the Red Boat. The Weng Chun that Andreas Hoffman teaches, is said to come from Fung Siu Ching as well and is more complex with forms and movements. So we can easily establish that WCK is not the simple system we see today, even as recently as the early 1900s

so who simplified it?

of course you could make an argument that no it was actually YM who did the simplification, but we have already established that YKS was

-the senior student compared to YM
-YKS was the actual one who was part of the richest family in Fatsan.
-YKS was the one who gave instruction to YM for a while when the Yip family was burned down due to the Yip family's drug smuggling connections, again suggesting superiority in WC skill and knowledge
-YKS never worked a day in his life due to his wealth, had the best and most expensive teachers money could buy, housed his teacher Fung Siu Ching in the traditional way, learning from him every day until Fung Siu Ching died.

Compare this to the facts about YM:

-we also know that YM only learned from Chan Wah Shun for a few months before Chan Wah Shun he died, and then had to learn from his Sihing. His involvement with Leung Bik and the "secret" wing chun is under question.

People can make their own conclusion as to what happened. we have established the facts, here is my analysis.

Did YM create the simpler version of WC in between having his house burnt down and fleeing to HK, only to have YKS, the senior student, take the new version.

Or did YKS, the senior student, who had all the time and money in the world, who did nothing but practice WC and fight in duels (records kept and verified by government run Chinese Historical Kung Fu Assocation), streamline the WC he learned and have it spread out to others.

thank you for your input and verification of the facts i presented. as we all know, Robert has spent a lot of time learning WC history

i have presented my analysis. everyone can make their own. i have met in Guangdong people without a dog in this race--a student of YM when he was in Fatsan, and the widow of a YKS student. Both have said everyone knows that YKS is the most famous and well known WCK practitioner of those days. YKS skill and conditioning were beyond reproach. he could jab his fingers into a japanese soldier's helmet and leave 5 finger dents.

[Pacman]

Ive seen the grandson of chan wah shun. He's a joke. He just goes off the fact that he is from that family.
I ask again, where are all the great YKS guys that could beat us all.
As I said before sounds like a little baby crying that someone else is more famous then them. Suck it up dude.

i dont care that YM is more famous in the west and even in modern day parts of asia outside of fatsan.

i have been a member of these forums for a while and i have never brought up these facts, i just contributed what i know because renee opened this thread

[Pacman]

I wonder why Cheung Bo Lineage taught by Master Mak Yiu Ming has Sil Lim Tao Chum Kil, Bil Jee and his Cheung Bo San Sik. In his interview he doesnt mention any trace to Master Yuen.
But Cheung Bo taught Master Sum Nung. Needs to be looked at more in detail.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70oeMiRJ71k


i could be wrong but it was said that cheung bo's WCK was entirely san sik based. again, people can add to their WCK and it is likely that if you are to add forms to your WCK you would add the standard 3 forms we see today and not the old 12+

you also mentioned about YKS at ng chung so's night club, learning form YM

YKS was rich, he had nothing to do but relax his whole life. just because he watched people practice WC does not mean he was learning from them. he also watched Cheung Bo teach Sum Nung Cheung Bo's restaurant, he was not learning from Cheung Bo

If Mike Tyson watched a kid train at a boys boxing gym, it doesnt mean hes learning from the kid!

in any case im done with this thread. ive shared what i know and admitted certain things are unprovable on both sides of the argument. its up to you if you want to take what is known and draw your own analysis from there.

[Shadow_warrior8]

i could be wrong but it was said that cheung bo's WCK was entirely san sik based. again, people can add to their WCK and it is likely that if you are to add forms to your WCK you would add the standard 3 forms we see today and not the old 12+

you also mentioned about YKS at ng chung so's night club, learning form YM

YKS was rich, he had nothing to do but relax his whole life. just because he watched people practice WC does not mean he was learning from them. he also watched Cheung Bo teach Sum Nung Cheung Bo's restaurant, he was not learning from Cheung Bo

If Mike Tyson watched a kid train at a boys boxing gym, it doesnt mean hes learning from the kid!

in any case im done with this thread. ive shared what i know and admitted certain things are unprovable on both sides of the argument. its up to you if you want to take what is known and draw your own analysis from there.

Great research shown by the seniors here. See, how can I be some great researcher when others have so much more years in real training?

You are again smoking something else
Who said this????
you also mentioned about YKS at ng chung so's night club, learning form YM
What I did say was what Kwok Fu said in his video interview and also what was reported as a story by Ip Man to his disciples.

So far I have yet to see anything in writing or video to show your position. And I have presented alot of that to show what you are saying is wrong

But my point was not to run down any lineage, but to tell you, Chinese Kung Fu is about respecting the elders and the traditions. And that act of offering tea was exactly that.

[Shadow_warrior8]

-the senior student compared to YM
-YKS was the actual one who was part of the richest family in Fatsan.
-YKS was the one who gave instruction to YM for a while when the Yip family was burned down due to the Yip family's drug smuggling connections, again suggesting superiority in WC skill and knowledge
-YKS never worked a day in his life due to his wealth, had the best and most expensive teachers money could buy, housed his teacher Fung Siu Ching in the traditional way, learning from him every day until Fung Siu Ching died.

Compare this to the facts about YM:

-we also know that YM only learned from Chan Wah Shun for a few months before Chan Wah Shun he died, and then had to learn from his Sihing. His involvement with Leung Bik and the "secret" wing chun is under question.

People can make their own conclusion as to what happened. we have established the facts, here is my analysis.

Did YM create the simpler version of WC in between having his house burnt down and fleeing to HK, only to have YKS, the senior student, take the new version.

Or did YKS, the senior student, who had all the time and money in the world, who did nothing but practice WC and fight in duels (records kept and verified by government run Chinese Historical Kung Fu Assocation), streamline the WC he learned and have it spread out to others.

thank you for your input and verification of the facts i presented. as we all know, Robert has spent a lot of time learning WC history

i have presented my analysis. everyone can make their own. i have met in Guangdong people without a dog in this race--a student of YM when he was in Fatsan, and the widow of a YKS student. Both have said everyone knows that YKS is the most famous and well known WCK practitioner of those days. YKS skill and conditioning were beyond reproach. he could jab his fingers into a japanese soldier's helmet and leave 5 finger dents.

Senior in what? What does Yuen family say? Or his other friend Yiu's family?
They were from different lineages. Senior in age? Sure. Master Yuen was reportedly a few years younger than Master Leung Jan

See the problem with your statements is that when we have Yuen and Yiu family reports and videos, you say nothing but carry on your unjustified statements. When I show you text from china on ip man, you still go on with your unjustified statements

I cannot find anything about Ip Man smuggling connection. Never seen anything on that, or that the house was burnt down. Its not reported in china either
I did see sifu sergio stand at Ip Man residences where now there is no house in Mulberry Park. Is that your reference? So if it was burnt down, was that before he left for hongkong or was it destroyed in the war?
I cannot find anything or anyone that said Ip Man stayed with Master Yuen. I did see something reported of Master Ip Man staying with Master Kwok Fu.

So you have a report Ip Man had to work as in the movie Ip Man 1, in the coal mines? I can assure you, the amount of Silver Ip Man gave Chan Wah Shun was no walk in the park. It was said to be able to buy a wife in those days.

Ip Man was reported to have learnt longer than a few months from Chan Wah Shun. So you are wrong
In fact, Ip Man's and his other 2 kung fu brother exploits have been documented for years even before you knew what wingchun was. Its funny for the west to come round and tell china, oh you are wrong here, and there. Or create another story.

Chinese Historical Kung Fu Assocation??? Please tell me where it is. I am heading to china this year and to guangzhou, I will find this place ask them myself as well as other seniors in china, Yuen and Yiu family in particular

I have no beef against Master Yuen and Master Yiu(which you have nothing on despite them also being very famous) and I have the highest respect for their skills. I have a problem with silly stories that cannot be justified with anything and still continue to go on and on doing so.

Again, happy to learn something but you have to show it through video interview or text or something. Otherwise, its just stories you came up with to run Ip Man down.

[Shadow_warrior8]

regarding Yiu Choy and Chan Wah Shun...

the book is call "Wing Chun Kuen" by Hon Quang Gow a student of Chan Wah Shun's great grandson, there is many in the series. You will see that they have more than 3 forms and 108 movements. Everyone today likes to coincide with YKS' 3 forms and reduce--it is much simpler.

Man, so now you are saying Chan Wah Shun grand son also learn from Yuen Kay San? What are you saying???

[Shadow_warrior8]

I remember seeing early Vietnamese WCK from Yuen Chai Wan's branch in the 1980's and it had one Siu Lien Tao (very similar to YKS), did not have Chum Kiu or Biu Jee, but had some additional hand sets and 5 animals Hei Gung sets. The 6.5 point staff was not similar at all to either the YKS or Yip Man version. They were known for their Gim set and had a set of Yee Ji Cern Dao.

Yip Man's 6.5 point pole set and the YKS 6.5 point pole set are very close. The 3 forms are very close. If you look at Leung Sheung's 3 WCK sets, it looks very much like YKS WCK, sans the Ngoi Huen Sao and the circular moves in CK and BJ in YKS.

YKS has 3 forms, a unique Jong set, 6.5 point pole and Yee Ji Cern Dao. The Yee Ji Dao does not come from Fung Siu Ching or Kok Bo Chuen - but may have been extracted from Cheung Bo's teachings.

Both Yip Man and YKS 6.5 point pole are dissimilar to Siu Lam Weng Chun's 6.5 point pole which I studied from Andreas Hoffman, whigh is descended from Fung Siu Ching. The latter form is more complex and richer in variation.

The Futshan WCK that Yip Man taught bears a strong resemblance to YKDS WCK, but not as soft and rounded.

Thank you Senior Robert, since you spent years in both arts, your word means alot here

I have found the similar facts as you. So while the forms of YKS and Ip Man are similar in appearance and its public, for all to see on video, I happen to notice a vast difference in application and energy when they chi sao

In the Yuen Family forms, I see alot of circular fluid movements with various speeds in the forms e.g last part of Sil Lim Tao(perhaps to show white crane lineage). And a great deal of chin na like in Rene's book and Yuen Jo Tong's movements. The Bil Jee shown by Sum Nung student, Master Zhou in guangzhou, also shows different movements and speeds, energy compared to the energy in GM Ip Ching bil jee.

Here for comparison are the 2 families descendants doing bil jee
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Gq0i-13FJcy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctJ2KMc6VzI

From what I practice and study of the Ip Man family forms, they are not the same in energy.

If Sifu Wong Nim Yi is anyone to reference, the Yi Jee Kim Yeung Dut Ming Dao is not the same as Ip Man Bart Cham Dao, and neither is the lok dim bun gwun taught by GM Ip Ching.

And yes, I can see Yuen Kay San signature in Sifu Mak Yiu Ming Sil Lim Tao, Chum Kil, Bil Jee. Although he does not claim anything back to master yuen, its clear that had a similar source.

[Shadow_warrior8]

My view is every one seems like to be a grand master and write all kind of books or article or making movies to promote his view.

However, what is WCK? up to now since YKS's generation how many could describe it clearly disregards of all the Books, seminals, web arguement.....etc.

See, if one doesnt know what it is, disregard of how many sets or how many books, there is no punch line but all kind of scattering and even confusing /contradictory information.

Up to now, most what have read here are just he says she says and HIS-STORY. what do these contribute to? more confusion.

Hi Senior Hendrik, I think my main purpose, is to honour the great man Ip Man as he is honoured in China. And for me the exploits of Master Yuen and Master Yiu cannot be disregarded hence the tea ceremony was important. That is the chinese way.

However, there are some who are jealous and play politics.
Till now so no can show me the chinese article which say Ip Chun lied about Leung Bik. Its only available in English translation. And the same video clip reported on youtube is muted. Check out my actual version, with audio and the actual words are different from what is said in English Content.
Clearly this is politics and someone playing up a story.

[Shadow_warrior8]

Ive seen the grandson of chan wah shun. He's a joke. He just goes off the fact that he is from that family.
I ask again, where are all the great YKS guys that could beat us all.
As I said before sounds like a little baby crying that someone else is more famous then them. Suck it up dude.

This is my point as well

If we fast forward to today, we see very different videos of 3 families, very different applications, very different energies.

And the Chan family are so different as well

I cannot see today, any point that they were all taught by the same person Master Yuen as said by Pacman.

[t_niehoff]

terrence i cant believe i am bothering to respond to you because for a lawyer you are incredibly unintelligent yet believe you know everything.


No, I KNOW that I do not know everything. But I don't blindly accept everything that I am told. Moreover, I put everything I dohear through my bullsh1t detector.



i will just respond to your mischaracterizations of my arguments

no my point is that i cannot produce a document detailing what yip man does and does not know.


Which means what? It mean nothing. The fact you lack such a document means nothing about what Yip knew or didn't know or what his skill level was. The fact that there never was such a document means nothing. So to try and draw some conclusions from that is irrational.



its like trying to produce a document of what terrence niehoff knows. why the hell would anyone write a document about terrence niehoff? therefore we can only work off of other clues, such as terrence niehoff says he knows all about all forms of WCK and fighting because robert chu ripped him off of thousands of dollars and read a book.


Putting aside your personal barbs, from a historical perspective, it is a simple matter to look at what Yip taught.



WCK even since the red boat had a lot more forms.


No, it hasn't. You appear to be relying on some book written by one person with an agenda of promoting himself. The WCK which descends from Wong Wah Bo has always had ONLY the three empty hand forms. Some have added village forms and other southern fist forms to their curriculum.



even YKS and his brother were taught this type of WCK. this is why even YKS's brother's lineage has a lot more 'material' even though they had the same teacher. YKS was the one who simplified to the three forms we know

No, because when we look at other people who weren't taught by YKS, we also see the three forms (like Lai Yip Chi who learned from CWS, and was a sihing to Yip, who taught Pan Nam or Ng Chung So, etc.).

[chusauli]

yes exactly the point. YKS and his brother did not learn the simplified version we know today from their two WC teachers. YKS simplified



exactly my point again. this is what I am talking about YKS signature.




bingo again. like i have been saying all along, the WC that YKS learned was more complex. he was the one who simplified.

The book I mentioned before is evidence of the previously complex WCK of the Red Boat. The Weng Chun that Andreas Hoffman teaches, is said to come from Fung Siu Ching as well and is more complex with forms and movements. So we can easily establish that WCK is not the simple system we see today, even as recently as the early 1900s

so who simplified it?

of course you could make an argument that no it was actually YM who did the simplification, but we have already established that YKS was

-the senior student compared to YM
-YKS was the actual one who was part of the richest family in Fatsan.
-YKS was the one who gave instruction to YM for a while when the Yip family was burned down due to the Yip family's drug smuggling connections, again suggesting superiority in WC skill and knowledge
-YKS never worked a day in his life due to his wealth, had the best and most expensive teachers money could buy, housed his teacher Fung Siu Ching in the traditional way, learning from him every day until Fung Siu Ching died.

Compare this to the facts about YM:

-we also know that YM only learned from Chan Wah Shun for a few months before Chan Wah Shun he died, and then had to learn from his Sihing. His involvement with Leung Bik and the "secret" wing chun is under question.

People can make their own conclusion as to what happened. we have established the facts, here is my analysis.

Did YM create the simpler version of WC in between having his house burnt down and fleeing to HK, only to have YKS, the senior student, take the new version.

Or did YKS, the senior student, who had all the time and money in the world, who did nothing but practice WC and fight in duels (records kept and verified by government run Chinese Historical Kung Fu Assocation), streamline the WC he learned and have it spread out to others.

thank you for your input and verification of the facts i presented. as we all know, Robert has spent a lot of time learning WC history

i have presented my analysis. everyone can make their own. i have met in Guangdong people without a dog in this race--a student of YM when he was in Fatsan, and the widow of a YKS student. Both have said everyone knows that YKS is the most famous and well known WCK practitioner of those days. YKS skill and conditioning were beyond reproach. he could jab his fingers into a japanese soldier's helmet and leave 5 finger dents.

Sir,

I don't have much time for this online, but I would be happy to discuss if you want to call me.

I will say perhaps you are mistaking Wing Chun for Weng Chun and vice versa. YKS did not simplify anything. He refined his art for himself. Weng Chun and Wing Chun are 2 lines from the same source - one maintained their combination Shaolin structure, the other maintained their Wing Chun structure. YKS wisely knew he could not adapt the Shaolin structure Weng Chun presented to Wing Chun, so he used San Sao of Fung Siu Ching, not their sets.

And although the 6.5 point poole sets may vary, the apllication and principles do not. One art (Weng Chun) teaches you all the variation in the classical sense, the other (WCK) allows you to extrapolate the changes. You know in Chinese we learn things set, then we do Bien Faat (Variations/Changes/Modifications) - it is not a rigid standard either, it is generally adapted for the individual' s temperment, intelligence, aptitude, personality, which is why nonsense about "original pure system" is highly questionable for TCMA in general.

As for the oral story of YKS being able to dent a Japanese soldier helmet, I heard this early in my training and will say, the roundness of a soldier's helmet blunts force, as does the body movement and neck flexibility, and it does not mean an out of shape opium addict will be able to send his fingers like rifle bullets into anyone's skull. You might be able to dent it, but it is highly unlikely anyone will simply stand there and let you do that, especially if armed with a katana, bayonet or rifle during the 2nd Sino-Japapnese War. So while I admire YKS's finger strength, let's get real. Stories like this are to be taken with a grain of salt.

[chusauli]

Thank you Senior Robert, since you spent years in both arts, your word means alot here

I have found the similar facts as you. So while the forms of YKS and Ip Man are similar in appearance and its public, for all to see on video, I happen to notice a vast difference in application and energy when they chi sao

In the Yuen Family forms, I see alot of circular fluid movements with various speeds in the forms e.g last part of Sil Lim Tao(perhaps to show white crane lineage). And a great deal of chin na like in Rene's book and Yuen Jo Tong's movements. The Bil Jee shown by Sum Nung student, Master Zhou in guangzhou, also shows different movements and speeds, energy compared to the energy in GM Ip Ching bil jee.

Here for comparison are the 2 families descendants doing bil jee
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Gq0i-13FJcy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctJ2KMc6VzI

From what I practice and study of the Ip Man family forms, they are not the same in energy.

If Sifu Wong Nim Yi is anyone to reference, the Yi Jee Kim Yeung Dut Ming Dao is not the same as Ip Man Bart Cham Dao, and neither is the lok dim bun gwun taught by GM Ip Ching.

And yes, I can see Yuen Kay San signature in Sifu Mak Yiu Ming Sil Lim Tao, Chum Kil, Bil Jee. Although he does not claim anything back to master yuen, its clear that had a similar source.

Shadow,

Wong Nim Yi is an indirect descendant of Sum Nung's teachings, as his sets have the similarity and sigbnature of YKS. You can see it throughout the "Mae Gai" Wong teachings. His Yee Ji Kim Yeung Dut Ming Dao is a variation of Sum Nung's Yee Ji Kim Yeung Dut Ming Dao derived from Cheung Bo's teachings.

Ip Ching and Ip Chun's pole sets are shortened and abbreviated and not taught like WSL's, Moy Yat's, or Tsui Sheung Tien's sets which are the original versions of what Yip Man taught. Lok Yiu also had the same set. Perhaps as Yip Man aged or trained less, he was unable to teach his sons in the mid - late 1960's the physical requirements of the pole and its changes. The essence is there. Leung Ting also does have the original set Yip Man taught. There is some slight variation in each of the sets I mentioned. Since I practice the pole a lot and asked various uncles/elders about it, I did learn many variations.

As for the knives, you should know a secret - there is no one "true" BJD set - they are all made by Yip Man with variation over the years from what he taught in Futshan and what he taught from the '50's, 60's and 70's. What he taught Ho Kam Ming (as well as Duncan Leung and Hawkins Cheung) was probably his last and best choreography. What he taught Moy Yat, Yip Chun and Yip Ching, Koo Sang and Leung Ting are all similar - the latter two have no flipping, whereas the former 3 have flipping. Yip Man basically had core drills, derived from the empty hand WCK and applied these to the knives - which eventually became "forms", although the BJD sets are generally illogical and basically core movements with footwork. Many learned it in dim sum restaurants in HK with chopsticks. Some "amended" it and changed the set for their own reasons, for example, WSL had at least 3 revisions to it, before the last version.

[reneritchie]

FWIW:

Cheung Bo's son, Ah Chut, learned from Sum Nung. What he taught Mak was pretty much Sum Nung's system.

Yuen Kay-San learned double knives from Fok Bo-Chuen, however he kept Fok's set in the family and taught his students versions of Cheung Bo's set with a few movements from Fok Bo-Chuen, and Yuen Kay-San's mechanics.

Yuen Jai-Wan apparently taught more WCK to native Cantonese than native Vietnamese after he moved to Vietnam. That wasn't an uncommon thing at the time. It was also a period and place where history and lineage didn't matter as much as survival so people combined what they learned from Yuen with other kung-fu styles and a lot of hybrid variations were passed along.

Chan Wah-Shun's grandsons put a lot of their village kung-fu into their Wing Chun Kuen.

The story of Yip Man's house burning down is fairly well known in China and I've heard it from many people and seen it in print. Yuen Kay-San and his two sons helped fight the fire, and Yip Man stayed with him following the blaze.

Again, you can check New Martial Hero for the story about Kwok Fu's training at the time and Sum Nung's offer to accompany Mok Poi-On to visit Kwok to make sure it was properly documented. Suffice it to say Yip Man was a reluctant teacher at the time and it's widely known in China that Kwok and Lun Gai continued their training after Yip Man left for Hong Kong and Sum Nung moved to Guangzhou.

Reputation was everything back then and they each knew the others skills fairly well. When others weren't around, I'm sure each had their own "fish who got away" stories, but when face to face with each other fairly accurate accounts had to be relayed.

[Shadow_warrior8]

Thank you rene and robert

I can always trust your opinion to be factual and respectful for all families.

Alot of what you mentioned is as what I have seen and heard as well about chan wah shun, and the ip man family elders.

Will be heading to china and hongkong. Will give sigung a call in hongkong. Will want to know about the ip family house being burnt down and also what happened. E.g was it drugs like what is suggested by pacman.

regards.

[Shadow_warrior8]

Shadow,

Wong Nim Yi is an indirect descendant of Sum Nung's teachings, as his sets have the similarity and sigbnature of YKS. You can see it throughout the "Mae Gai" Wong teachings. His Yee Ji Kim Yeung Dut Ming Dao is a variation of Sum Nung's Yee Ji Kim Yeung Dut Ming Dao derived from Cheung Bo's teachings.

Ip Ching and Ip Chun's pole sets are shortened and abbreviated and not taught like WSL's, Moy Yat's, or Tsui Sheung Tien's sets which are the original versions of what Yip Man taught. Lok Yiu also had the same set. Perhaps as Yip Man aged or trained less, he was unable to teach his sons in the mid - late 1960's the physical requirements of the pole and its changes. The essence is there. Leung Ting also does have the original set Yip Man taught. There is some slight variation in each of the sets I mentioned. Since I practice the pole a lot and asked various uncles/elders about it, I did learn many variations.

As for the knives, you should know a secret - there is no one "true" BJD set - they are all made by Yip Man with variation over the years from what he taught in Futshan and what he taught from the '50's, 60's and 70's. What he taught Ho Kam Ming (as well as Duncan Leung and Hawkins Cheung) was probably his last and best choreography. What he taught Moy Yat, Yip Chun and Yip Ching, Koo Sang and Leung Ting are all similar - the latter two have no flipping, whereas the former 3 have flipping. Yip Man basically had core drills, derived from the empty hand WCK and applied these to the knives - which eventually became "forms", although the BJD sets are generally illogical and basically core movements with footwork. Many learned it in dim sum restaurants in HK with chopsticks. Some "amended" it and changed the set for their own reasons, for example, WSL had at least 3 revisions to it, before the last version.

Sifu Robert, that seems quite consistent about Sifu Wong Nim Yi. I am a great fan of his, and he has good skills

One main thing is that alot of Sigung Ip Ching stuff is still very much kept within his direct lineage. Having done both Sigung Ip Chun and Ip Ching forms, from sil lim tao, chum kil, bil jee are different in energy. Also the movements of bart cham dao are different starting from the second section onwards. And the footwork angles for bart cham dao as well.
The lok dim bun are also different for the brothers. I have seen the Master Tsui Shueng Ting pole and knife, its simple and straight forward, the set by GM Ip Ching are longer.

But having look at these sets for a few years now, I take what works and drill it for speed, power, accuracy, footwork, and other than that, who thinks its right or wrong hasnt mattered as much since. The only way is to go and ask ip man, and maybe his answer might surprise us all.

Thanks for your information.

[Pacman]

Man, so now you are saying Chan Wah Shun grand son also learn from Yuen Kay San? What are you saying???

no i am saying that his book is evidence that what chan wah shun originally taught, and what YM learned, is not the simplified version we know today

regarding YKS and his finger conditioning--no one is saying he could put his fingers through a skull and yes much more is needed to apply that ability in a fight. these are strawmen responses. i was telling that story as an example to show the type of dedication and skill YKS had as a WC practitioner


I cannot see today, any point that they were all taught by the same person Master Yuen as said by Pacman.

again you are mischaracterizing what i am saying. i said that YKS taught YM some basic chi sau. that is it. i never said YKS taught anyone else formally besides sum nung.

others may have "borrowed" his simplification or just stolen a few moves here and there. seeing how some people do chi sau or even SLT and it really seems like a person whose understanding is only skin deep.

Getting quotes from Kwok Fool is no different than getting it from Yip chun, who already apologized for many times lying. Some people are good for twisting things around, he can challenge the reader's intellengence for saying it was just a pouring tea--respect to a senior, where the big letters in the newspaper headline said it was an apology.

History keeps repeating itself. when sum nung was alive he spent a lot of his time defending his teacher Yuen's honor by going around Fatsan and even HK, confronting lies by many top "masters", their students always surprised to see their teacher's quick apology and blaming of responsibility for the lies to overzealous students. Even Sum Nung got tired of going around and hearing apology after apology, only to hear the same lie being repeated years later.

[bennyvt]

Yeh right dude. So now SN stood infront of everyone and confonted YM. Seriously. What major lies were being spead, what were all the other schools.
Gwok fu is majorly different to yip chun. Gwok fu trainned hard and was known as one of the best fighters in fut san hence the soliders needing to tie him up and break his legs with rifle butts. I have never heard a bad word from gwok fu about anyone. Every story he told left both parties with a good standing. What people turn it into is another story.
Who cares what chan wah shun's grandson does. Ive seen him, hes ****. He like other relatives of famous people just goes off his name and what he does has so much crap in it its hard to tell what is VT.

[Shadow_warrior8]

no i am saying that his book is evidence that what chan wah shun originally taught, and what YM learned, is not the simplified version we know today

regarding YKS and his finger conditioning--no one is saying he could put his fingers through a skull and yes much more is needed to apply that ability in a fight. these are strawmen responses. i was telling that story as an example to show the type of dedication and skill YKS had as a WC practitioner

again you are mischaracterizing what i am saying. i said that YKS taught YM some basic chi sau. that is it. i never said YKS taught anyone else formally besides sum nung.

others may have "borrowed" his simplification or just stolen a few moves here and there. seeing how some people do chi sau or even SLT and it really seems like a person whose understanding is only skin deep.

Getting quotes from Kwok Fool is no different than getting it from Yip chun, who already apologized for many times lying. Some people are good for twisting things around, he can challenge the reader's intellengence for saying it was just a pouring tea--respect to a senior, where the big letters in the newspaper headline said it was an apology.

History keeps repeating itself. when sum nung was alive he spent a lot of his time defending his teacher Yuen's honor by going around Fatsan and even HK, confronting lies by many top "masters", their students always surprised to see their teacher's quick apology and blaming of responsibility for the lies to overzealous students. Even Sum Nung got tired of going around and hearing apology after apology, only to hear the same lie being repeated years later.

Did you misspell Kwok Fu on purpose or were you disrespectful like you are about Ip Man? If you were you are a FOOL. You think you are funny? I dont see you spelling of those you defend name wrong. Respect the teacher and the way, you havent got it. Period.

You can say anything you want. You can say Ip Man was from Mars or that Master Yuen was anything. You havent proven anything from anyway. i have produced both sides historically here from China. You- Nil.

Show me, you or those of your gang, show me where Ip Chun apologised for lying about Leung Bik. Show me the chinese article. Show me your intelligence.
The title you posted says its an apology? 《叶问前传》被指污蔑咏春派 道歉会没开始差点开打
Do you know how to read mandarin? What does the article say? I posted it in full so all can see. This is not to say Checkley Sim did not offer tea to Yiu and Yuen for the movie, misrepresenting their ancestors
Get it???

Apologise for movie representation of Yuen Kay San and Yiu Choi is not = Apologise for lying about Leung Bik and Ip Man

Here is the chinese report again in SOUND- why is your version muted? Speaks volumes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5njdTJvxnA

Can you read you own text? For god sake use google translate if you cant. Your truth is only a few clicks away to relieve you from your confusion over what is what. However stubborness even though the truth is staring at you, that is a different question.

Here again, my reply to your text.
The movie was not Ip Man 2, it was Ip Man the Legend is born,
This title means 《叶问前传》被指污蔑咏春派 道歉会没开始差点开打
Ip Man the legend is born is accused of slander, apology meeting didnt get to start and they nearly came to blows.
PAGE 1 of this thread.
I posted this article right at the beginning in words for all to see and the reference. Its all very transparent. The words do not amount to GM Ip Chun saying Leung Bik doesnt exist and that he was not telling the truth. Nowhere does it say GM Ip Chun say, he confess that Leung Bik didnt teach Ip Man.
Your title says apology many times? This is your title you posted. 《叶问前传》被指污蔑咏春派 道歉会没开始差点开打
Offering tea multiple times was "A subtitle" in the main article and that was because Yuen Jo Tong was angry about the western students on site and that he felt the apology was not sincere enough at 1 seating

You cant lie about written text. You can lie about the stories which you say Ip Man this and that because you have nothing to show.
You cant lie about leung bik when his verified historical documents are in Ip Man Tong. You cant lie about leung bik because the Chinese Professors in history have already researched it and put in officially on record in their chinese goverment website.
And then Master Fung and Tam come forward to say it as well. I notice only in the west, is Leung Bik existence challenged. Speaks volumes.

In page 1, the person who poured tea was Checkley Sim, Ip Chun student
冼国林低头斟茶认错
Who apologised? Ip Chun who was acting or Checkley Sim the financier of the movie, who name is in the report. And was it over lying about Leung Bik??? Leung Bik was not properly represented in terms of what he taught Ip Man. He didnt teach wrestling and high kicks like said in the movie. We understand what the so called "distortion" was. If thats the west twisting the way chinese words are worded. Well I doubt people get the chinese language and ways at all. I am sure some people read chinese here, but not many.
If this rubbish was posted in a china forum, you would get blasted big time because it shows you really cant read mandarin or understand the chinese culture. They all read mandarin and there is no need to debate what chinese words mean.

For every lie you present, I will make sure the proper chinese representation for Chinese Wing Chun Kung Fu be presented- direct from China. You can count on that.
讲你不听,听你不明,明你不做,做你又做错,错你又不认,认你又不改,改你又不服,不服你又不 讲；那你要我 怎么办？
40 years on from Ip Man's death, the chinese ways and culture are lost and muddled. Its really sad for TCMA. There is no more respect of teacher and way.

Your main goal is to lie about Ip Man to run down his name and his skills. And even Kwok Fu, Ip Chun etc.... As benefactors of this man and his efforts(as most of the western world is), you can be sure I am not going to let that happen.

[Shadow_warrior8]

I did not want to post this here because I believe the Yiu and Yuen families are respectable in China, and when we go, we meet up with them. The apology about misrepresentation in the movie was a gracious move like what Rene said.

But too many lies are being told about Ip Man here so here is a post by Ip Ching who lived in fatshan and tells their family situation

Part of an interview by Ip Ching from Moy Yat about Ip Man in Fatshan

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Ving Tsun was teached to the "Young Lords" of FatSan by Chan Wah Shun, and between those young ones, there was the most famous 'till today: IP MAN

"My grandpa managed the Ip Family finances. We owned restaurants, funeral houses and the famous Song Garden where the food for silk worms grow. The Song Garden was very huge and the goverment needed to make a road in the same place. So, after my grandpa dies the road was called Fuk Yin. This road is very near to Chopstick street, where Leung Jaan lived." - said Ip Ching to Moy Yat.

http://lukdimbungwaan.blogspot.com/

[Shadow_warrior8]

Yeh right dude. So now SN stood infront of everyone and confonted YM. Seriously. What major lies were being spead, what were all the other schools.
Gwok fu is majorly different to yip chun. Gwok fu trainned hard and was known as one of the best fighters in fut san hence the soliders needing to tie him up and break his legs with rifle butts. I have never heard a bad word from gwok fu about anyone. Every story he told left both parties with a good standing. What people turn it into is another story.
Who cares what chan wah shun's grandson does. Ive seen him, hes ****. He like other relatives of famous people just goes off his name and what he does has so much crap in it its hard to tell what is VT.

Fast forward into present day from stories of who beat up who and who taught who all that crap.

Sifu Samuel Kwok goes to china with his group alot. And there are videos of his students exchanging with those china lineages. And the result- well they are humble because of respecting teacher and way to post it online.

[Pacman]

not that the song or mulberry gardens are relevant to wing chun skill, but distortions about this fact are an example of the distortions about YM.

The attempt to make change who and what YM was, the attempt to portray him as the super rich leisurely man that had nothing to do but practice his WC

Go ask Yip Chun, why in the apology news conference when Yuen yelling at him "Throughout the known history of Foshan, in the city map, there was no house addressed in the Mulberry garden estate that is claimed as your house! Mulberry Gardens is Yuen's ancestral home, you were living at my house! ". Why did Yip not respond?


I did not want to post this here because I believe the Yiu and Yuen families are respectable in China, and when we go, we meet up with them. The apology about misrepresentation in the movie was a gracious move like what Rene said.

But too many lies are being told about Ip Man here so here is a post by Ip Ching who lived in fatshan and tells their family situation

Part of an interview by Ip Ching from Moy Yat about Ip Man in Fatshan

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Ving Tsun was teached to the "Young Lords" of FatSan by Chan Wah Shun, and between those young ones, there was the most famous 'till today: IP MAN

"My grandpa managed the Ip Family finances. We owned restaurants, funeral houses and the famous Song Garden where the food for silk worms grow. The Song Garden was very huge and the goverment needed to make a road in the same place. So, after my grandpa dies the road was called Fuk Yin. This road is very near to Chopstick street, where Leung Jaan lived." - said Ip Ching to Moy Yat.

http://lukdimbungwaan.blogspot.com/

[Pacman]

I have found the similar facts as you. So while the forms of YKS and Ip Man are similar in appearance and its public, for all to see on video, I happen to notice a vast difference in application and energy when they chi sao


let me be clear, i am not saying that YKS and YM WC are similar. They are vastly vastly different. In energy and application, which is why I always protest when I hear people say all WCK is the same. Doesn't Robert always say that? Now he is saying they are different? :confused:

Not saying YKS and YM are the same. All I am claiming is that YKS was the one to simplify into the 3 forms. You can take it or leave it.

[Shadow_warrior8]

let me be clear, i am not saying that YKS and YM WC are similar. They are vastly vastly different. In energy and application, which is why I always protest when I hear people say all WCK is the same. Doesn't Robert always say that? Now he is saying they are different? :confused:

Not saying YKS and YM are the same. All I am claiming is that YKS was the one to simplify into the 3 forms. You can take it or leave it.

Historically it has already been said by many seniors who did that and the time line. Look at your wingchunpedia what does it say?
it wasnt yuen kay san, and from the other families that didnt have interaction with him yet still have 3 forms. This is not possible. You can take it or leave it.

First you say Ip Man learn from Yuen Kay San the forms, next you say taught a little chi sao, next you say they are different. If I learnt something from someone, it should be the same. And they are different, and so many other lineages have 3 forms. Even Pan Nam and Chan Wah Shun etc.... Clearly Yiu Choi did not learn from Yuen Kay San but Yuen Chai Wan. Yet he has 3 forms. Why does it say that Yuen, Ip and Yiu were asking Ng Chun So for instructions?
In chinese tradition, we can ask a senior for instructions in certain things, as in, a junior learning as a senior, however this doesnt mean he taught me officially as a sifu.
Your claims on Yuen and how he taught ip man so much of what he knows, the forms, the chi sao is far fetched. And Kwok Fu said, Ip man would stop them from practicing when Yuen came over.

Remembering their ancestors correctly is a very important part of chinese culture, as you can see the reason for this meeting. You should realise that now, and stop your slandering of Ip Man, his family and his descendants.

I get what Sifu Robert is saying in essense. However different people are doing what they interprete as well building on their experiences through training and fighting.

[Shadow_warrior8]

not that the song or mulberry gardens are relevant to wing chun skill, but distortions about this fact are an example of the distortions about YM.
The attempt to make change who and what YM was, the attempt to portray him as the super rich leisurely man that had nothing to do but practice his WC
Go ask Yip Chun, why in the apology news conference when Yuen yelling at him "Throughout the known history of Foshan, in the city map, there was no house addressed in the Mulberry garden estate that is claimed as your house! Mulberry Gardens is Yuen's ancestral home, you were living at my house! ". Why did Yip not respond?

Why would people want to protray ip man like that? In china and worldwide
As you claim it was Master Yuen who lived like that? he was a lawyer as I have record.
Good, please show this.....I want to see this. If there is anything that will add weight to any of your statements, show me in chinese video or text.
We only see the tea pictures, we see ip chun sitting calmly. The confrontation was over the 5-6 western students who looked like bodyguards and Master Yuen Jo Tong was offended thinking Ip Chun had brought people to fight or challenge. This is recorded. I did not see any shouting at Ip Chun at all over a home. Please show me the text. Thank you.

Where is the house now? Its plain land. What happened to the house? Why did Sifu Sergio stand in front of Ip Man Fatshan home? You mean he did not know it was Yuen Family home?
If it is what is claimed by you, then Ip Man house was burnt down. Yuen went to Guangzhou, what happened to the house in Fatshan he allowed Ip Man to stay as you claimed.
Yet in the history of china, it is written, chan wah shun taught in the rented premises of Ip Man. That is fact and in writing
If its true that Ip Man stayed in Yuen house then Ip Chun and Ip Ching also lived there- and I am not saying it is. We can just ask them.
Here is Sifu Sergio showing the homes of Ip Man before and after Japanese occupation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0sgmWFUfJ8
Who name was the title deed in? And that proves they were good friends, and highly respected as brothers as the proper video says by Ah Niu- Yuen Kay San Descendant. So where does it come in for you, that Master Yuen who treated Ip man as his brother letting his family stay there, for you to run down Ip Man?

You know the family of Yuen had ample time from Ip man 1 to present that the house Ip Man was featured in was their own house. Its been 2-3 years and it has created hundreds of thousands of people interested in wingchun in china and following the ip man story. Obviously this press conference was about how the ancestors fighting abilities were represented. From the article and even the time frame what happened
　　神秘老外激怒阮祖棠
　　电影《叶问前传》制片人冼国林一行按邀约时间，准点到达酒家，来到阮祖棠和弟子们所在房间 的隔壁落座。 同行的还有从香港赶来的叶问之子叶准，以及佛山精武体育会会长梁旭辉———他在《叶问前传》中 饰演当年的佛 山精武体育会会长李万豪。阮祖棠带记者们去隔壁房间跟对方会面，临行前他跟记者说，自己跟叶准 还是第一次见 面，“我会在跟他握手的时候跟他说：‘没想到第一次见面是在这样的场合，我非常遗憾，也觉得很 苦涩。’”没 想到还没入座，阮祖棠就突然猛击桌面玻璃，大声发飙：“这些人是打手吗？！”记者这才注意到， 门口有五六位 年轻健壮的男老外，均双手放在背后齐齐站立。阮祖棠情绪激动地要求这些人出去，并喊来服务员关 门，禁止让“ 闲杂人等”入内。
　　时间：12:40
　　老叶准劝阻双方干架
　　阮祖棠继续质疑几位神秘老外的来历，指对方“像黑社会”。冼国林尴尬解释，这是他师叔的弟 子，而他们的 到来是为了见他以及商量《叶问4》的拍摄（冼国林称，他正积极筹拍《叶问4》，并想邀请梁朝伟 担纲）。他说 自己并未授意这些老外进入房间，更非如阮祖棠所怀疑的那样，是他带来的“打手”，甚至表示“你 可以检查我们 的火车票”。但阮祖棠表示不信，冼国林遂对天发誓：“如果我撒谎，就不得好死！”由于双方情绪 激动，言辞激 烈，冼国林一度起身说：“我们走！”但被剧组其他人员劝阻。争吵中，阮祖棠及弟子与冼国林之间 的距离逐渐拉 近，双方都摆开了动武的架势。此时，一直默默坐着的叶准迅速站起，及时拉住了冼国林，而另一边 的姚氏后人则 劝阻了阮祖棠。阮祖棠稍微平静下来后，回头向身后的电视台记者们表示：“这段你们可以播出街！

Here it states very clearly what master yuen said, yelled about and it wasnt about the house or at Ip Chun. In fact he said this is the first time he meets ip chun and when he shakes his hand its regretful to meet under this circumstances. Showing Master Yuen had great respect. In fact, I have seen in china Master Yuen is shown to be very pro chinese- so he was angry at westerners there interfering in traditional chinese family meetings where it seems like a challenge. So when 5-6 westerners were there with Checkley Sim, he felt it was a like a triad meeting. And when Checkley Sim explained and Master Yuen didnt accept it, Checkley stood up and said to LEAVE. In that, both sides had brushed against each other and nearly came to blows.
Ip Chun who was sitting down, stood up, and held on to Checkley sim asking them to calm down. When Master Yuen calmed down, he told the reporters, you can broadcast this segment openly. - THIS IS THE FACTS OF THE REPORT and there were reporters there to witness.

From Master Yiu decendants in the next article I posted,
姚才的嫡系传人姚忠强表示：“ 他们是佛山的咏春三雄，彼此武功不相上下
They were Fatshan 3 heros, kungfu was equal, no one was higher or lower.
姚才的大孙子姚永强介绍，当年在佛山，他的爷爷姚才与叶问、阮奇山并称“咏春三雄”，三人齐名 。后来叶问去 了香港，阮奇山去了广州，姚才则留在了佛山。他们三人的咏春拳各有特点，自成流派，但却难分高 下。他说，作 为叶问大师兄的姚才，以动作快、功底厚著称，人称“大力才”，姚才一派的咏春拳也因此被称为“ 快手咏春”。 “爷爷自小好慕武术，之后跟随吴仲素习武，其时阮奇山、叶问也常往吴武馆请教，三人常交流切磋， 三人的武功 不相上下。”
They were 3 heros, kungfu were equal. Yiu family descendents say their ancestor was known as Great Strength Yiu, Hands were very fast, known as fast hands wingchun. He learnt from Ng Chun So, and Yuen and Ip would ask Ng Chun So for instructions, the 3 were always exchanging, kungfu was equal. Thats chinese humility and graciousness. No one blows their own horns, they say they are equal even when if they are better.
当时，叶问与姚才、阮 奇山三人“好得穿一条裤子”。
This statement is a chinese cliche, meaning 3 person were so good in terms, they would wear the same pants. That is what is described of all three of them as friends and respect.
Note how respectful china is about their own ancestors, and others? No one puts another person down even in setting facts right about their ancestors. That class.

So you have more stories and still nothing from written text or videos? But a video by Clam61 of the report, who edited out the sound, took a few photos of the tea offering, adding in s******s and laughing in the background and made it into a video and uploaded to youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ash3CY-9Ovo this has proper reported chinese text that say one thing, yet the english(obviously added out of translation) text saying something slanderous and untrue- no chinese text to support your english words of Ip Chun lying, Leung Bik didnt teach Ip Man. Just silly politics by people who want to run down Ip Man's name. And the stupidity of doing so while the people in question at the press conference are still alive.
In your attempt to pitch Master Yuen, you have discredited everyone even the descendants in china from Yuen, Yiu, Ip, Fung, Tam, Leung, Chinese goverment for running a scam and sham.
What did Ah Niu from Yuen Kay San Lineage say about the 3 people's relationship?
Again his own words- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5njdTJvxnA
I am sorry to say this is page 9, and you have no reference to anything but stories that have no weight from anywhere. Anyone following this thread or reading the reference will make very clear conclusions. There is no need to post more slanderous stories about Ip Man, Ip Family, Ip Students or the interview which whoever spends the effort to translate it or can read chinese will know what truely happened.
GM Ip Ching talks very clearly about things about his father.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vIkKwNVCUM&feature=channel
Master Lo, setting the record right about his uncle
http://www.lomankamwingchun.com/grandmaster-yip-man.html
Ip Man Early life
http://www.chinese.cn/kungfu/en/article/2009-08/29/content_23061.htm
Great pictures of where was what in fatshan- Mulberry Gardens in Fatshan
http://leekamwing.org/LunGai.aspx
Foshan Museum and its historical research of Ip Man in Fatshan and Hongkong- FACTS
http://www.foshanmuseum.com/wbzy/xslw_disp.asp?xsyj_ID=261
Here Foshan Museum also list Leung Bik being taught by Leung Jan
http://www.foshanmuseum.com/mrmj/mrmj_disp_sub.asp?id=117

[t_niehoff]

let me be clear, i am not saying that YKS and YM WC are similar. They are vastly vastly different. In energy and application, which is why I always protest when I hear people say all WCK is the same. Doesn't Robert always say that? Now he is saying they are different? :confused:


Yes, you are CONFUSED. Very confused.

YKS WCK is simply a curriculum for teaching WCK. YM WCK is simply a curriculum for teaching WCK. They are two person's textbooks for teaching the same subject matter, WCK; two different ways of teaching someone how to ride a bike. A curriculum to teach you to ride isn't bike riding itself.

BTW, what most WCK people call "application" are imaginary examples of using their WCK. They are not really "application." Application is fighting. So when someone teaches application, they should really be teaching this-is-what-I-routinely-do-in-fighting. 99.9 %of the time we don't see that.



Not saying YKS and YM are the same. All I am claiming is that YKS was the one to simplify into the 3 forms. You can take it or leave it.

I'll take it -- as a feeble attempt to rewrite history by Tom Wong.

[Pacman]

Historically it has already been said by many seniors who did that and the time line. Look at your wingchunpedia what does it say?
it wasnt yuen kay san, and from the other families that didnt have interaction with him yet still have 3 forms. This is not possible. You can take it or leave it.

First you say Ip Man learn from Yuen Kay San the forms, next you say taught a little chi sao, next you say they are different. If I learnt something from someone, it should be the same. And they are different, and so many other lineages have 3 forms. Even Pan Nam and Chan Wah Shun etc.... Clearly Yiu Choi did not learn from Yuen Kay San but Yuen Chai Wan. Yet he has 3 forms. Why does it say that Yuen, Ip and Yiu were asking Ng Chun So for instructions?
In chinese tradition, we can ask a senior for instructions in certain things, as in, a junior learning as a senior, however this doesnt mean he taught me officially as a sifu.
Your claims on Yuen and how he taught ip man so much of what he knows, the forms, the chi sao is far fetched. And Kwok Fu said, Ip man would stop them from practicing when Yuen came over.

Remembering their ancestors correctly is a very important part of chinese culture, as you can see the reason for this meeting. You should realise that now, and stop your slandering of Ip Man, his family and his descendants.

I get what Sifu Robert is saying in essense. However different people are doing what they interprete as well building on their experiences through training and fighting.

i already explained this. i acknowledged that other families that did not have interaction with YKS have only 3 forms and why. i also explained why YM looks different.

i also never said YKS taught YM 3 forms. I always said YKS taught chi sao. You inserted your own assumptions into what I said and changed it up. Now can you see why YM and YKS' WC can be so different? I am trying to pass knowledge down to you--it is the first generation and you already got it so wrong. Imagine what will happen to this story a few generations down.

i also already explained all of what you wrote-- why most people are just going to go along with the 3 heroes of WC line--because they dont want to offend anyone. they arent going to make a big deal about a house when the first movie came out but when they make YKS look like a nobody then they want to speak out.

also, you cant reference a private YM museum and quotes from YM descendants etc. That is like quoting the Bible to prove the Bible. That is why I referenced people, places, texts that are not biased such as Chan Wah Shun's grandson's book or the government run records etc. Of course I cannot produce a video of YKS doing this or that for obvious reasons.

If you go watch the proper Chinese news you will see Yuen Jo Tong yelling about his house at the tea pouring.

[Pacman]

Yes, you are CONFUSED. Very confused.

YKS WCK is simply a curriculum for teaching WCK. YM WCK is simply a curriculum for teaching WCK. They are two person's textbooks for teaching the same subject matter, WCK; two different ways of teaching someone how to ride a bike. A curriculum to teach you to ride isn't bike riding itself.

BTW, what most WCK people call "application" are imaginary examples of using their WCK. They are not really "application." Application is fighting. So when someone teaches application, they should really be teaching this-is-what-I-routinely-do-in-fighting. 99.9 %of the time we don't see that.



I'll take it -- as a feeble attempt to rewrite history by Tom Wong.

Terrence, every time you try to lecture people on what is WCK and what is not WCK it just gets more and more pathetic. Every time you try to lecture on how to train the same effect is produced.

If it has been 30+ years of training and you still aren't successful please just give up and do something else.

Where did Tom Wong come from all of a sudden? I never mentioned him. I did not get my information from him. I know many people in Guangdong and even met the widow of one of Sum Nung's students and others who were alive at the time. She personally witnessed YKS finger jabbing into a brick wall and pulling out a brick, she personally witnessed his ability to dent a Japanese soldier's helmet with his finger tips. I also met one of YM's first students. He said it was very well known in Fatsan at the time that YKS was the top master. No one came close.

[t_niehoff]

Terrence, every time you try to lecture people on what is WCK and what is not WCK it just gets more and more pathetic. Every time you try to lecture on how to train the same effect is produced.


That's not surprising coming someone who doesn't understand that "WCK is WCK".



If it has been 30+ years of training and you still aren't successful please just give up and do something else.


Oh, I'm doing fine since I met and trained with Robert. :)



Where did Tom Wong come from all of a sudden? I never mentioned him. I did not get my information from him.


Really? Then where did your info come from?

It came from Tom Wong. But, you'll try to deflect that by . . .



I know many people in Guangdong and even met the widow of one of Sum Nung's students and others who were alive at the time. She personally witnessed YKS finger jabbing into a brick wall and pulling out a brick, she personally witnessed his ability to dent a Japanese soldier's helmet with his finger tips.


Exactly. Oh, it wasn't Tom, it was these unnamed other people! "I met someone who told me . . .". Can't provide any names, can't provide any particulars, etc. And, on top of that, the stories are incredible (YKS could do magic!!). Yes, it is sound to rely on the unsubstantiated stories of unnamed people.



I also met one of YM's first students. He said it was very well known in Fatsan at the time that YKS was the top master. No one came close.

Typical. The "top master" -- ROFLOL!

What you guys who try to rewrite history in your favor never seem to grasp is that in the end you always end up looking like fanatical idiots and find that all your efforts only result in tarnishing your idol.

[Faruq]

its important to know though. in the movie they made yuen kay san look like sh!t
its not about putting yip man down, its about giving yuen kay san his proper respect

in the KF museum in foshan (like a hall of fame), sum nung and yuen kay san are there, based on their accomplishments. yip man is not. yip man only became famous after bruce lee became famous. not even people like wong fei hong were admitted. only after the "once upon a time in china" movies came out, did wong fei hong's students petition for him to be there

yuen kay san would fight these matches and tell the historian au sui jee to give credit to leung jan because he did not want to attract attention to himself and his family. as a result, leung jan gained a lot of notoriety.

the "3 heroes of wing chun" title did not exist at the time yuen kay san was alive. this came later and yuen kay san's grandson actually accepted it because he wanted to ride some of bruce lee's fame too.

in guangdong the perspective of WC is very different

How so? What are you saying?

[LSWCTN1]

I know many people in Guangdong and even met the widow of one of Sum Nung's students and others who were alive at the time. She personally witnessed YKS finger jabbing into a brick wall and pulling out a brick, she personally witnessed his ability to dent a Japanese soldier's helmet with his finger tips.

wasnt (and please correct me if i am wrong) Sum Nung 19 when he stopped training under the great YKS?

if that is the case then i severley doubt that his students wife was introduced to YKS, and that YKS gave a martial display?

please correct me if i am wrong.

[CFT]

also, you cant reference a private YM museum and quotes from YM descendants etc. That is like quoting the Bible to prove the Bible. That is why I referenced people, places, texts that are not biased such as Chan Wah Shun's grandson's book or the government run records etc. Of course I cannot produce a video of YKS doing this or that for obvious reasons.Major mistake assuming that the book is unbiased. He has his own lineage to promote.

e.g. Chan Wah Sun beating Wong Fei Hung in a duel, which you now attribute to YKS.

[t_niehoff]

Major mistake assuming that the book is unbiased. He has his own lineage to promote.

e.g. Chan Wah Sun beating Wong Fei Hung in a duel, which you now attribute to YKS.

I counter his book with Leung Ting's "Roots of Wing Chun" which says that YKS was a scrub who hardly knew anything. I mean, if someone wrote it down in a book, it must be true. ;)

[Pacman]

wasnt (and please correct me if i am wrong) Sum Nung 19 when he stopped training under the great YKS?

if that is the case then i severley doubt that his students wife was introduced to YKS, and that YKS gave a martial display?

please correct me if i am wrong.

Actually YKS died when SN was in his early 30s. Also, Sum Nung gained a good reputation early on and so he began teaching at a young age and so most of his students were older than him.

i get a lot of my information from people with roots in China. I dont go to Hawaii and Taiwan to learn about WC.

Some of the people I have spoken to over the years include

- The widow of Sum Nung's student, Cheung, who is also close to the Leung Sheung family
- Sum Nung's indoor student Kevin Chan (not the guy who teaches in SF)
- Historian Chow (forgot his given name at the moment)
- Master of Yao Gung Moon in LA
- Hung Ga Master in NY who told me everyone in Fatsan knows that no one comes close to the skills of Sum Nung and YKS(also forgot his name but its the same person who taught Robert Chu)
- Ng Jung from Hong Kong, who is a grandstudent of Wong Wah Bo. He demonstrated to me and Kevin Chan Wong Wah Bo's 12 forms and 108 movements for the 6.5 staff

Also I forgot until now, but there is a branch of WC called Pao Fa Lien, which has roots with Fung Siu Chung too. I believe that they have many open handed forms. I think a total of 12. Here is something I found on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiBMTLGfC3E

Anyways, here is another book I have by Hon Quon Guo. He is in Leung Jan's lineage.

Explanation of Leung Jan's 12 forms and 108 movements
http://a.imageshack.us/img714/2479/honsbookexplainleungs12.th.jpg (http://img714.imageshack.us/i/honsbookexplainleungs12.jpg/)

Leung Jan's double sword and fork
http://a.imageshack.us/img714/3116/leungjans2bigswordandbi.th.jpg (http://img714.imageshack.us/i/leungjans2bigswordandbi.jpg/)

Leung Jan's plum flower spear
http://a.imageshack.us/img714/3566/leungjansstudentwongdem.th.jpg (http://img714.imageshack.us/i/leungjansstudentwongdem.jpg/)

Leung Jan's taming tiger form
http://a.imageshack.us/img714/516/leungjanstampingtigerfo.th.jpg (http://img714.imageshack.us/i/leungjanstampingtigerfo.jpg/)

the information I am giving is not secret by any means. you just have to go beyond quoting kwok fu and yip chun. as you can see most of my info comes from people who do not have a bias.

[Pacman]

Major mistake assuming that the book is unbiased. He has his own lineage to promote.

e.g. Chan Wah Sun beating Wong Fei Hung in a duel, which you now attribute to YKS.


the book is written by Ou Shen Jee. he was a famous writer from the last century who lived to be 105 years old. among others, he wrote a book on yuen kay san and the 6.5 point staff and his fight with wong fei hong. he is not a part of the yuen kay san lineage

where did you hear chan wah shun fighting wong fei hong?

[FongSung]

http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1389

[Pacman]

http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1389

i see. perhaps both defeated WFH at some point. who knows. to give credit to YKS' story, it is worthwhile to note that it was written by a third party

[reneritchie]

Stories aside, I think it's fair to say that for the last 50s many people outside mainland China took advantage of the Bamboo curtain to make it seem, either through fabrication or omission, that there was only one WCK.

We know that this is not the case, we know it's never been the case. That's not only a disservice to the other branches of the art, it's a disservice to every branch and every student of every branch.

The history and its many branches belong to all of us.

Again, I hope this apology to the Yuen family gets the publicity it deserves and more people get exposed to more teachers and branches of the art.

[LSWCTN1]

Leung Jan's taming tiger form
http://a.imageshack.us/img714/516/leungjanstampingtigerfo.th.jpg (http://img714.imageshack.us/i/leungjanstampingtigerfo.jpg/)

the information I am giving is not secret by any means. you just have to go beyond quoting kwok fu and yip chun. as you can see most of my info comes from people who do not have a bias.

actually, Lee Shing was also taught by Ng Chun So for a period and he has a Dai Lim Tao - different to that but he does have one nontheless.

i dont think that its Kulo village stuff, but could be wrong.

Spencer?

[Shadow_warrior8]

i already explained this. i acknowledged that other families that did not have interaction with YKS have only 3 forms and why. i also explained why YM looks different.

i also never said YKS taught YM 3 forms. I always said YKS taught chi sao. You inserted your own assumptions into what I said and changed it up. Now can you see why YM and YKS' WC can be so different? I am trying to pass knowledge down to you--it is the first generation and you already got it so wrong. Imagine what will happen to this story a few generations down.

i also already explained all of what you wrote-- why most people are just going to go along with the 3 heroes of WC line--because they dont want to offend anyone. they arent going to make a big deal about a house when the first movie came out but when they make YKS look like a nobody then they want to speak out.

also, you cant reference a private YM museum and quotes from YM descendants etc. That is like quoting the Bible to prove the Bible. That is why I referenced people, places, texts that are not biased such as Chan Wah Shun's grandson's book or the government run records etc. Of course I cannot produce a video of YKS doing this or that for obvious reasons.

If you go watch the proper Chinese news you will see Yuen Jo Tong yelling about his house at the tea pouring.

C'mon you are talking like you are the only one that goes to china guangzhou. Its 3 hours away from me, and I have met yuen, yiu, ip students and are friends through email with them. And our lineage goes yearly to exchange with them. I am going to see Master Yuen Jo Tong and Master Zhou this year. Will ask them whats their view and why did Leung Niu says Yuen and Ip, were good friends. Even the newspaper report says so.

Why dont you show the news report you claim like I did to prove your point?
Still waiting for the Ip Chun lying report and the Yuen yelling. The reporters were to keen to say they nearly came to blows, say Checkley Sim offered tea multiple times and yet forget to mention Ip Chun was yelled at about his house. They did record what Yuen Jo Tong yelled about though.

You know the first ip man movie, there was a scene where the young boy had his pants pulled down because the older brother was trying to teach him, what it meant by, telling the truth or so called facts, over knowing what to say, because of loss of face
As chinese I understand what that means, some things are better not said. Whatever you think its true, I have returned you with facts, not from my mouth, or my text written just by me, but from referenced from individual sources.
However at no point did I run down or sprout any stories about the other Sifus to put them down like you have about Ip Man lineage. If its really what you say it is, then whoever is sprouting this to you, has alot of anger, negativity and also no understanding of chinese culture or mo dak. I have heard many stories of this and that over the years, and there's a reason why I would never think of posting in online. Because its disrespectful.
You admit you cannot verify alot of your stories, and you havent, so you should know when to stop being disrespectful to 咏春泰斗 叶问

I am showing you historical recorded data from the goverment. You accuse everyone of some conspiracy, all except your source.
I show you Kulo Goverment, Fatshan Museum, besides of course Ip Man Tong. Ip Man Tong was created by the chinese goverment.
Reference? Chan Wah Shun's Master Tam video, and also Master Fung was mentioned by me. Text, people, books, etc.... show me on an external site, not your own words. I have shown lots, from official resources from china.
I have the book, it doesnt say nothing about Ip Man 3 forms or Yuen Kay San. What you talking about Chan Wah Shun anyway, it has no reference to Master Yuen.

This is what you said...
-YKS was the one who gave instruction to YM for a while when the Yip family was burned down due to the Yip family's drug smuggling connections, again suggesting superiority in WC skill and knowledge
Yet the Yiu Family records and Kwok Fu remember otherwise.

-the book is call "Wing Chun Kuen" by Hon Quang Gow a student of Chan Wah Shun's great grandson, there is many in the series. You will see that they have more than 3 forms and 108 movements. Everyone today likes to coincide with YKS' 3 forms and reduce--it is much simpler.
Why? Their teachers had no skill? This is totally untrue. They still have 3 forms, but they have their hong kuen. And I have videos of their other forms, some are clearly created by themselves, called Chan Wah Shun Form. We already know who broke the forms down. What Yuen Kay San 3 forms? They all have 3 forms.

-lets forget about the pak sau chung choi debate. no one can prove anything, we can just speculate.
Sorry as far as I see, you are really speculating. When you say no one, I really dont see that I cant. As I have....

-im saying that yip man learned sticky hands from yuen kay san for a short period of time. YM had only really mastered the chung choi before this. reportedley yuen kay san was also reluctant to teach yip man because he was learning a different style of wing chun. YKS is an 'old school' type of guy who is in the tradition of keeping skills and knowledge within the inner circle of his own KF family.
[B]Leung Niu from Yuen Kay San says otherwise as I presented in the video. Unless you are more senior than him, you are really just spinning another story. [/U]

-you can state the history you have learned, i can state the history i have learned. in the end neither of us have any evidence to prove any claim, but just like Rene's example with the incident in the 70s he trusts his sources and I trust mine.
You say it like I have showed no references from china. You....er....still nil.

-if people want evidence of things then look at the historical documents about yuen kay san and sum nung's accomplishments (fight records and writings about them that were made at the time they were alive). go to the KF hall of fame museum in Fatsan and check it out for yourself. Ask yourself why yiu choi and yip man are not there despite being part of the "3 heroes of wing chun"
You mean this? From Foshan
http://www.foshanmuseum.com/wbzy/xslw_disp.asp?xsyj_ID=261
http://www.foshanmuseum.com/mrmj/mrmj_disp_sub.asp?id=117
tells you heaps about Ip man, and Leung Jan

[Shadow_warrior8]

Stories aside, I think it's fair to say that for the last 50s many people outside mainland China took advantage of the Bamboo curtain to make it seem, either through fabrication or omission, that there was only one WCK.

We know that this is not the case, we know it's never been the case. That's not only a disservice to the other branches of the art, it's a disservice to every branch and every student of every branch.

The history and its many branches belong to all of us.

Again, I hope this apology to the Yuen family gets the publicity it deserves and more people get exposed to more teachers and branches of the art.

Rene, this is no fault of the Ip Family or hongkong. Was it the west who propelled the momentum? Whose to blame?
China was closed and Bruce Lee went to hollywood to make movies became big
Ip man was in hongkong and it was a british colony.
Any wingchun practitioners in asia would have known there was more than 1 wingchun lineage, malaysia, vietnam, singapore, indonesia, china etc... There was no deception by anyone. Didnt many on this forum learnt from chinese people who left for the west or left china? If more didnt leave, no one is to blame.

How can it be a disservice? It was not as if there was a Ip Man Wing Chun God or Ip Man Goverment that controlled who gets to go to the west to teach Wingchun and was biased. This is fate and destiny.
The various lineages made their choices, stay or leave. And I know also that Cho Family members left for Canada Vancouver and also in Mexico. As there are Yuen members, in many western countries. Master Kwok is in Hongkong.

My grandparents risk their lifes to leave china, and many others left for US to build railroads, New Zealand to do mining, Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia etc....

The fact that the mainland china lineages didnt get the recognition is not fault of anyone, everyone gets their fair chance. Like now, the doors are open, we can now compare 50 years later, moving from stories, what do the descendents demonstrate? And claims on ancestors skills now have a chance to show.... is it really superior? Was it like what the stories say? Or those who claim my grand daddy could beat yours, now can your grandson beat yours? Its all in the present now. And the present generations get to prove their stories in their skills.

If we didnt have Ip Man and Bruce lee to push the momentum forward, do we think we would even have this wingchun forum as exclusive forum by itself.

Nevertheless, the diversity is great and I have learnt alot from other lineages. There is great depth and culture in Mainland still.

Its just I dislike people who claim they know the chinese arts, but dont even know the basic principle- Respect the teacher and the way of wing chun.

This apology was not just to the Yuen Family also the Yiu and this is in line with the chinese ways of respecting the ancestors and humility.

[Shadow_warrior8]

Actually YKS died when SN was in his early 30s. Also, Sum Nung gained a good reputation early on and so he began teaching at a young age and so most of his students were older than him.

i get a lot of my information from people with roots in China. I dont go to Hawaii and Taiwan to learn about WC.

Some of the people I have spoken to over the years include

- The widow of Sum Nung's student, Cheung, who is also close to the Leung Sheung family
- Sum Nung's indoor student Kevin Chan (not the guy who teaches in SF)
- Historian Chow (forgot his given name at the moment)
- Master of Yao Gung Moon in LA
- Hung Ga Master in NY who told me everyone in Fatsan knows that no one comes close to the skills of Sum Nung and YKS(also forgot his name but its the same person who taught Robert Chu)
- Ng Jung from Hong Kong, who is a grandstudent of Wong Wah Bo. He demonstrated to me and Kevin Chan Wong Wah Bo's 12 forms and 108 movements for the 6.5 staff

Also I forgot until now, but there is a branch of WC called Pao Fa Lien, which has roots with Fung Siu Chung too. I believe that they have many open handed forms. I think a total of 12. Here is something I found on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiBMTLGfC3E

Anyways, here is another book I have by Hon Quon Guo. He is in Leung Jan's lineage.

Explanation of Leung Jan's 12 forms and 108 movements
http://a.imageshack.us/img714/2479/honsbookexplainleungs12.th.jpg (http://img714.imageshack.us/i/honsbookexplainleungs12.jpg/)

Leung Jan's double sword and fork
http://a.imageshack.us/img714/3116/leungjans2bigswordandbi.th.jpg (http://img714.imageshack.us/i/leungjans2bigswordandbi.jpg/)

Leung Jan's plum flower spear
http://a.imageshack.us/img714/3566/leungjansstudentwongdem.th.jpg (http://img714.imageshack.us/i/leungjansstudentwongdem.jpg/)

Leung Jan's taming tiger form
http://a.imageshack.us/img714/516/leungjanstampingtigerfo.th.jpg (http://img714.imageshack.us/i/leungjanstampingtigerfo.jpg/)

the information I am giving is not secret by any means. you just have to go beyond quoting kwok fu and yip chun. as you can see most of my info comes from people who do not have a bias.

I also quoted china goverment and foshan museum, you need to open your eyes and see the chinese text. Do you read chinese text?
I didnt quote Ip Chun, I quoted Ip Ching. And many others....

I go direct to china, and talk to current students who talk to their master daily. We are friends and still emailing from time to time. They are still in china have always been.

I have this book showing Chan Wah Shun Lineage.
Fok Fu is Chan Wah Shun lineage, Shunde Weng Chun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltGyg5GA1h8
This pictures are taken in Foshan Jing Wu School
Fat Jeung and Flower Fist are Chan Wah Shun lineage.

Nice pictures. I respect your sharing.

Pao Fa Lin doesnt trace back to Fung Siu Ching

http://www.hudong.com/wiki/%E5%88%A8%E8%8A%B1%E8%8E%B2%E5%92%8F%E6%98%A5%E6%8 B%B3

刨花蓮詠春一脈來源：
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

刨花蓮詠春一脈來源：
少林寺被清廷所毁，寺僧便四散逃走，有散于北方其他地方，亦有南下广东，福建等地，一名绰号“ 大东风”之少 林和尚（真姓名及法号已没有提起，因避清廷耳目之故，而“大东风”的意思，在当时中国民间有俗 语所谓“唔好 东风搅坏天”，借用其意即要造反）逃到广东，遇到两名兄弟并被收容，兄叫谢国梁，弟叫谢国樟， 袓籍西樵，单 灶谢，一为文官，一为武官，两人虽为清廷效力，但皆为清官，而且身为汉人，亦对满洲人欺压汉人 而心感不愤。 经过一段颇长日子的相处，“大东风”见两人品德端正，为官清廉，对自己礼待有加，且心系汉族， 并非为虎作伥 之人，就传两兄弟武功，并且透露，懂此门武功者，皆为反清义士，但此拳本无名，乃少林一脉，但 少林功夫门路 繁多，于散出少林后，便各自成一派，亦具派别名称。缘于本派功夫，既以反清复明为己任，当然会 联络及组织各 地之反凊组织（即初期之洪门等三合会），而本派暗语是“永言矢志，毋忘汉族，还我河山，大地回 春”，为便以 传于后世，遂将第一句“永言”合成一“咏”字，加上第四句最尾“春”字，以命名此一拳派，是为 “咏春”。何 解第一句用首两字，而第四句只用最尾一字？因为“永言”合成的“咏”字，是一动词，创拳者们既 身为明朝遗臣 或子民，能够驱逐鞑子，还我河山，是为毕生最重要的事，所以“咏”的意思，就是告诫所有的人， 要经常在心中 吟咏那四句的暗语，勉励自己，不可或忘。
关于上述四句暗语，不单说武术界的老前辈，只要是年近六十岁，武林阅历丰富，及对初期洪门三合 会组成之历史 及目的有所认识者，都会听得出这四句暗语的含意。

“大东风”是道光年间人，咏春拳亦由此而南传广东，而谢氏昆仲是咸丰年间人，当两兄弟学成武功后 ，大东风便 离开他们，返回北方，临行前叮嘱谢氏昆仲，创此拳乃为反清复明，为保存隐密性，只能“传而不教 ”。
几十年后，谢氏昆仲告老还乡，收了两名干儿子，一名梁洪韬，亦为西樵人，后来曾中得武举人，擅 使关刀。另一 名刘达生，同治年间人，自九岁开始随两干爹习拳，因其名中“达”字，以草书写来，很像“莲”字 ，故街坊叔伯 皆笑称其“莲仔”，久而久之，他亦习惯了这称谓。又因其在佛山曾做“刨花”行业，那是一种树木 ，将其刨成刨 花，放在水中煮滚，会分泌出浆液，用作搽腊头发，以固定发式，即属现代之化妆品行业，“刨花莲 ”的绰号，乃 由此而来。
刨花莲后来在佛山唐裕昌宫粉堂作掌柜，
刨花莲咏春拳
一生只收有数名弟子，有李善初，罗甜，陆义（先随张保学咏春十二散式，后再随刨花莲学齐咏春门 之套路及技法 ），朱忠，李炳霖，郭佳(现仍在佛山)。
朱忠，光绪年间人，十一岁时从街坊处得知刨花莲功夫了得，于是慕名前往，却是被拒，返家后闷闷 不乐，其父问 及，于是说出原委，其父带他一同前往，看谁个教头这般大牌，一见面，原来是相识数十年之朋友， 却从未听刨花 莲说过会功夫，但因其两人既谂熟，才答应收朱忠为徒，其时刨花莲已七十多岁，朱忠将其迎回家中 教授，除侍奉 起居饮食外，每月束修为三十元白银。
在解放前，朱忠与家人移居香港，住于深水及开设跌打医馆，凡数十年，四年多前，才享高寿而终， 年一百零五岁 。朱忠在港数十年间，除数名子女外，先后教有很多弟子，其中弟子莫沛安，早年随朱颂民习传自冯 少青的永春拳 ，因他长年做武林记者，跟很多武林前辈熟络，故亦旁及其它一些拳派，如自然门等。在六○年代， 因他经常到旺 角吉祥茶楼午膳，从邻台一些老佛山口中，得悉有一位咏春门的老师傅，住于深水？，名叫朱忠，其 拳法很有古朴 味道，大不相同于一般所见之咏春，莫沛安几经查探，终于寻得朱忠老师傅，多番恳求下，被朱忠收 为弟子，其后 莫沛安想在“新武侠”杂志介绍本门咏春，于是请示其师朱忠，朱忠是尊师重道之人，因他是学“刨 花莲”的，所 以就叫莫沛安写“刨花莲咏春”，以别于其它各支水，而本门咏春亦由那时开始转叫“刨花莲咏春” 。朱荣枝师傅 虽已八十岁，但步履动作之灵活敏捷，犹如小孩般。
综观历史及拳理、功法等，与由红船传出的各支咏春差别极大。而现在是“大东风”南传二百多年间 之第五传。由 于此门咏春一向很保守，从不公开，只有一次，约八十几九十年前，佛山精武体育会举行盛大武术表 演，发帖邀请 “刨花莲”出席表演拳术，由朱忠师公代为出场表演了一套“寻桥”，与会中者还有当时武技超群，德 高望重的前 辈梁世苏。由于已不需要反清复明，所以后来莫沛安乃作半公开式教授，及现亦于香港南北国术协会 开班。

[Shadow_warrior8]

　　摘要：电影《叶问前传》中，姚才、阮奇山这两位叶问师兄弟成了“反面陪衬”，引起广佛两地阮氏、姚氏后 人弟子的不满，并发言声讨。昨日，在武林人士的协调下，“咏春三雄”叶问、姚才、阮奇山的后人弟子首次坐到 圆桌前调解。
　　
(南方都市报www.nddaily.com 南都网)调解会现场

　　南都讯 电影《叶问前传》中，姚才、阮奇山这两位叶问师兄弟成了“反面陪衬”，引起广佛两地阮氏、姚氏后人弟子的不 满，并发言声讨。昨日，在武林人士的协调下，“咏春三雄”叶问、姚才、阮奇山的后人弟子首次坐到圆桌前调解 。在剧组代表冼国林承认虚拟剧情对“二雄”造成伤害，并五次口头道歉后，双方初步达成共识，将在近期发布正 式文字道歉声明。

　　阮姚两家欲司法解决

　　昨日，出品人冼国林作为剧组代表从香港赶到广州道歉，叶问儿子叶准同行。“地点是由阮、姚后人确定的， 既是请罪，当然是上门道歉方显诚意。”冼国林说。

　　姚、阮两家7月6日首次发表的抗议声明，得到冼国林在媒体上的间接回应，昨天在调解会上，两家再次发表 声明，把口头上的争执上升到司法层面。

　　阮奇山嫡孙阮祖棠介绍，《叶问前传》未经姚、阮两家授权委托，盗用阮奇山、姚才姓名权用于商业行为，并 且在没有事实依据的情况下，对阮奇山和姚才进行贬损性侮辱性描述，丑化其外在形象，构成名誉损害。在电影播 出后，制片方授权出版社出版《叶问前传》漫画、小说，同样的情况再次出现。鉴于上述三种文化产品仍在各地上 映、销售、发行、扩散，侵权行为仍在继续，“不想打口水仗了，司法解决或会更好。”阮祖棠说。

　　出品人五次口头道歉

　　“这个事件是个误解，希望此事能在武林中解决。”冼国林说。

　　冼国林在会上不断重复解释，《叶问前传》中出现的叶天赐是一个虚拟的人物，姚才、阮奇山两位宗师被打败 也是虚构的。冼国林承认自己忽略了其后人、弟子的感受，并口头道歉，希望两家后人弟子能接受。

　　“这是我的第五次道歉！”冼国林说。虽然冼国林一上来就摆出低姿态，向“二雄”后人道歉，但协调过程中 仍不时受到姚、阮两家后人的指责，以至于他在现场一共口头道歉五次，最终达成初步共识，即姚、阮两家在接受 冼国林的口头道歉后，冼国林仍然需要再拟一份书面道歉声明公布于媒体，以示诚意。

　　在表示会书面道歉后，冼国林面对媒体询问是否会赔钱时，明确表示不会在金钱上进行赔偿。此外，姚阮二家 还表示，如再次看到冼国林无诚意道歉，或会自己拍一部姚才、阮奇山的电影，复制同样的场景来扬 先师的雄风。

　　事件回放(南方都市报www.nddaily.com 南都网)

　　《叶问前传》一个不到一分钟的场景，场景中同有“咏春三雄”之称的姚才和阮奇山在与东洋人冲突后被打倒 ，命悬一线时，叶问赶到，持“六点半棍”以一敌众，把东洋人打倒。姚阮后人认为，电影为了撑叶问而贬损阮奇 山和姚才的形象。7月6日找到媒体，发首份声明，质疑影片方的用意。

　　叶准异常沉默

　　在姚阮两家质疑制片方的过程中，叶准几乎一言不发，喝着热茶，抽着烟。其间，由于双方争论火药味较浓， 不时有人口快，说出一句对其父叶问的冷语评价，叶准依然一言不发。当争吵过激时，他仅通过不断打火点烟的火 机声让人注意到他的存在。记者注意到，年过八旬的叶准由于身体不佳，在端茶喝水或点烟的过程中手都剧烈颤抖 。

　　武林“讲数”

　　出场：首次聚首均便装出场

　　武林调解，自是掌门协商，弟子静候。昨日的调解宴，东道主阮(生活在广州，开武馆)、姚(生活在佛山， 开武馆)两家后人弟子，在广州坐镇家门口，等待道歉方百里外赶来。

　　调解宴开始时间是中午12：30分，但三方均是提前到来，而且是前后脚，服装均是便装，丝毫看不出江湖 气息。姚忠强黄色唐装，阮祖棠白衬衫，叶准和冼国林均是T恤。一围圆台，姚才孙子姚忠强等三兄弟(姚永强， 姚汉强，姚忠强)先到，坐定。随后是阮奇山孙子阮祖棠到来，握手招呼后坐定。作为东道主，姚阮二家各带两名 弟子随行。

　　最后到来的是冼国林、叶准及作为协调人的佛山精武会成员，叶准居前。在见到姚、阮后人后，叶准主动先伸 出手以示友好，姚、阮也忙回礼握手，这是咏春三雄后人在世交几十年间首次同聚一堂，握手交谈。“叶准先生， 我一向敬重叶问老先生，没想到见面竟是这种场合，真是一个苦结。”阮祖棠说。(南方都市报www.ndda ily.com 南都网)

　　随后，双方坐定，一围10人，均为各派话事人。

　　中场：六名外籍壮汉引混乱

　　双方坐定，寒暄数言，协商氛围一片友好。突然，本是紧闭的包间大门被推开，一排六名外籍壮汉斯文走入， 进入后在门口的墙边一字排开站定，却一言不发。“三雄”后人眼看壮汉入内，表情各异：叶氏脸色平静，姚氏一 脸茫然，唯阮氏最动情。但见阮祖棠脸色突变，弹簧般跳起，拍桌大喝：“这是什么意思？什么态度？搞黑社会示 威吗？”听到师傅叫喊声，阮家的两个弟子随即冲入包间，一时会场火药味弥漫，有点混乱。

　　冼国林马上站起身来解释，说这群朋友听说他从香港来广州，机会难得，就约着一起来。“这是谈判，不是随 便的见面会，可以约其他朋友过来。如果可以的话，我在广州可以约的朋友何只六个，上百个也可以。”阮祖棠大 声道。认定对方无谈判诚意，阮祖棠正欲离席走人，姚忠强出声劝止，“不行，第一次协商不能就这么不欢而散。 ”强劝数言，阮祖棠终于答应继续谈，但要求六名壮汉即刻离开，“马上给我出去，不出去，我打你出去！”阮祖 棠怒斥。

　　眼见谈判即将破裂，冼国林马上示意随行人员跟六名壮汉解释，并将他们带出包厢。

　　终场：倒茶赔罪以果汁结束

　　在协商过程中，阮祖棠多次对冼国林的道歉态度表示怀疑，双方来回多次口角，由于言语过激，冼国林的发言 多次被阮祖棠打断。(南方都市报www.nddaily.com 南都网)

　　“以前多次协商都是通过代理人与阮、姚两家电话、短信沟通，我这次亲自过来就是为了表示诚意，希望阮师 兄、姚师兄能接受我的道歉。”冼国林说。在重复地解释和口头道歉后，冼国林先端着茶杯走向阮祖棠，不料遭阮 拒绝，冼只好回到座位，继续解释。之后，再次端起茶杯走向姚氏三兄弟，看冼国林多次端茶起立，姚氏三兄弟接 受了他的端茶道歉。

　　从12点半到下午两点，一围人几乎没吃饭，眼着大家都累了，姚氏兄弟接受了冼国林道歉后举起杯，希望大 家能端茶促同心，尽早协商出解决方案。利用这个时机，冼再次端茶向阮祖棠赔礼道歉，阮终于接受，却不肯喝茶 ，直呼自己想喝饮料，一场倒茶赔罪宴以一杯果汁结束，颇让人惊讶。

　　采写：南都记者 陈怡

　　图片为录像截图 (南方都市报www.nddaily.com

Its is clear here, another article, that Yuen Jo Tong never yelled about house, he did about the 6 westerners, it is not reported and Ip Chun said nothing at all till they almost came to blows, he never said anything about Leung Bik. This report is very consistent with the other 2 I posted.

And seriously, Master Yuen would yell at someone who is in his 80s? If we say both Master Yuen and Master Ip were brothers, then Ip Chun is still a senior in age and lineage. Leung Niu was sitting next to GM Ip Chun. From what I read, he was saying its a shame that its the first time he meet Ip Chun under this kind of circumstances, and he would say so when he shakes his hand. Very classy man Master Yuen.

Your statements actually dishonour the family of Yuen saying they would try to get fame by claiming their ancestors was a hero together with Yiu Choi and Ip Man(whats the problem he was...), and that he would yell at a senior, older man in the lineage.

Fatshan Wingchun 3 heros, as told by Yiu Choi descendents, Yuen Kay San grandson, Yuen Kay San student Leung Niu. This is not a story told much in hongkong, it is something that in China is known. Something is very wrong with anyone claiming the Yuen or Yiu descendants are accepting it for fame or distorting the historical facts of their ancestors. Stabbing your own family, something is very wrong here.
They called a press conference just to talk about this that all 3 were known as brothers, on great terms and heros of fatshan and the Ip Elder went all the way to Guangzhou just to talk to them- To honour their ancestors.

http://news.gd.sina.com.cn/news/2010/07/15/947463.html

I am starting to think all these lies are just because there are some who are jealous of the Ip Man lineage, his status, the huge family, bruce lee, ip man tong, the 3 movies and fourth coming up.

C'mon, then do something about it. Dont tell lies and stories to bring Ip Man down. Everyone gets a fair chance. I would love to see a historical movie on Master Yuen or Master Yiu or Master Sum Nung or any wingchun master in history who had great skills. They were great people historically too.

If you want vindication, do a movie, do a documentary, do a museum, honour the ancestors. This is much better way to honour them than to tell stories and put other wingchun brothers down.

[Shadow_warrior8]

actually, Lee Shing was also taught by Ng Chun So for a period and he has a Dai Lim Tao - different to that but he does have one nontheless.

i dont think that its Kulo village stuff, but could be wrong.

Spencer?

Its not Kulo stuff. All the forms are Shunde Weng Chun via Chan Yiu Meng/Chan Wah Shun

[LSWCTN1]

Its not Kulo stuff. All the forms are Shunde Weng Chun via Chan Yiu Meng/Chan Wah Shun

sorry, i meant that i dont think Less Shing's DLT comes from his Gulao village learning (which was prior to learning from Ng Chun So i am led to believe)

again lee Shing also learnt from Jui Chow alongside Jui Wan and Pan Nam, so it COULD be Shunde Weng Chun i guess...

ask your sifu shadow warrior - he also studied some with Lee Shing

[Shadow_warrior8]

sorry, i meant that i dont think Less Shing's DLT comes from his Gulao village learning (which was prior to learning from Ng Chun So i am led to believe)

again lee Shing also learnt from Jui Chow alongside Jui Wan and Pan Nam, so it COULD be Shunde Weng Chun i guess...

ask your sifu shadow warrior - he also studied some with Lee Shing

I didnt say anything along those lines

Just pointing out those pictures and forms were of Shunde Weng Chun, not maybe

Yes he did study with Lee Shing. Cheers...

[Pacman]

there is no conspiracy. i never suggested this. you are making strawmen like a lawyer. people always want to change history when its good for them.

you do not read posts. i gave some of my sources a few posts ago. these are unbiased third party people and texts. you reference ip chun, ip ching and kwok fu. why dont i just reference yuen jo tong and sum dek!

we can go back and forth about whether the "3 heroes of wing chun" saying existed at the time of YKS or not all day long. i say this, you say that.

like i said, go to fatsan, the city kept a census every year, but not just of who lived where or the # of kids they have, they also recorded the famous or significant people and their accomplishments. only YKS and Sum Nung are listed as Wing Chun masters at the time. Why did they not record the other 2 of the "3 heroes of Wing Chun"?

the yip man museum is not government run. of course there is government involvement. its communist china, big government, big brother. you open a lemonade stand on the street and the government will be involved. its different than the records that were kept at the time these men were alive.

your trying to nitpick and derail the discussion. whether pao fa lien is related to fung siu ching or not is not of importance. the point is showing that lineages of WC that have more than SLT, CK, and BJ. i think one of the ancestors learned some style from the fung siu ching lineage first, before learning what we now call pao fa lien. like i said, that does not matter. that is not my point

the articles on the meeting are not records of the exact dialogue, they are not the meeting minutes. many things happened that were not reported. i got my information from people that were at the meeting. By the way, why do you mention Leung Bik. I never said anything about Leung Bik and the apology meeting.

[LSWCTN1]

I didnt say anything along those lines

Just pointing out those pictures and forms were of Shunde Weng Chun, not maybe

Yes he did study with Lee Shing. Cheers...

Sorry, yes - the pictures were from Shunde wck. the point i was making was that the dlt DOES exist outside of shunde wck potentially. Kulo village have a san sik by that name i think i remember Robert Chu mentioning one time? but my point was that i dont think the Lee Shing DLT comes from the pin sun system

ive also shot you a pm...

[chusauli]

Sorry, yes - the pictures were from Shunde wck. the point i was making was that the dlt DOES exist outside of shunde wck potentially. Kulo village have a san sik by that name i think i remember Robert Chu mentioning one time? but my point was that i dont think the Lee Shing DLT comes from the pin sun system

ive also shot you a pm...



Having seen Lee Shing's Dai Lim Tao a few times in the UK and on youtube, I would say 100% it is Pin San WCK from the Fung Family. There is no doubt about it to me. All other speculation about it being from Shun De WCK is just that.

Pin San is organized in many different ways - loose or informal sets. Some branches have no sets at all, others have a few sets. In Lee Shing system, the DLT is one set comprised of the Pin San points and many even share the same names as other branches of Gu Lao/Ku Lo.

[Shadow_warrior8]

Having seen Lee Shing's Dai Lim Tao a few times in the UK and on youtube, I would say 100% it is Pin San WCK from the Fung Family. There is no doubt about it to me. All other speculation about it being from Shun De WCK is just that.

Pin San is organized in many different ways - loose or informal sets. Some branches have no sets at all, others have a few sets. In Lee Shing system, the DLT is one set comprised of the Pin San points and many even share the same names as other branches of Gu Lao/Ku Lo.

Interesting, so it looks like Kulo wingchun?

Sifu Robert, it is shunde weng chun.

Fat jeung, Fok Fu, Fa Kuen etc...are not sets of Kulo. I have videos on these forms perfomed by Shunde Weng Chan/Chan Yiu Ming lineage.

This doesnt mean it cannot be called Leung Jan Wing Chun, because Chan Wah Shun is a legit source of Leung Jan Wing Chun Kuen.

[Shadow_warrior8]

there is no conspiracy. i never suggested this. you are making strawmen like a lawyer. people always want to change history when its good for them.

you do not read posts. i gave some of my sources a few posts ago. these are unbiased third party people and texts. you reference ip chun, ip ching and kwok fu. why dont i just reference yuen jo tong and sum dek!

we can go back and forth about whether the "3 heroes of wing chun" saying existed at the time of YKS or not all day long. i say this, you say that.

like i said, go to fatsan, the city kept a census every year, but not just of who lived where or the # of kids they have, they also recorded the famous or significant people and their accomplishments. only YKS and Sum Nung are listed as Wing Chun masters at the time. Why did they not record the other 2 of the "3 heroes of Wing Chun"?

the yip man museum is not government run. of course there is government involvement. its communist china, big government, big brother. you open a lemonade stand on the street and the government will be involved. its different than the records that were kept at the time these men were alive.

your trying to nitpick and derail the discussion. whether pao fa lien is related to fung siu ching or not is not of importance. the point is showing that lineages of WC that have more than SLT, CK, and BJ. i think one of the ancestors learned some style from the fung siu ching lineage first, before learning what we now call pao fa lien. like i said, that does not matter. that is not my point

the articles on the meeting are not records of the exact dialogue, they are not the meeting minutes. many things happened that were not reported. i got my information from people that were at the meeting. By the way, why do you mention Leung Bik. I never said anything about Leung Bik and the apology meeting.

I am sure, everyone who reads this thread can see the difference in my information versus what you post and who really has any proper references, videos, websites, names, chinese articles, information from both sides, ip and yuen, yiu, master fung, master tam, master kwok fu, master leung niu, master yuen jo tong, goverment owned foshan musuem, goverment owned ip man tong, kulo goverment, in english, chinese etc.... Even when you search yuen kay san in mainland china websites, their famous hudong website or Wikipedia- what is said about Master Yuen.
http://www.hudong.com/wiki/%E9%98%AE%E5%A5%87%E5%B1%B1%E5%92%8F%E6%98%A5%E6%8 B%B3
http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-hk/%E9%98%AE%E5%A5%87%E5%B1%B1

It sure beats some doctored video with people laughing behind, of pics and news, and a load of stories that cant even be proven. Nothing in the current has been shown, not even the so called yelling of Yuen Jo Tong at Ip Chun about the house- was never reported. All you can say I reference Ip Ching or Samuel Kwok(once? twice?) This is page 11. If you cant even show me something you claim in the present, I will let those who view the thread decide whether they can believe the stories in the past. And deliberately avoid questions or proof staring you in your face.

Having said that, its just this, history about people who have passed on, you believe your source, I posted mine. Let those who see decide.

What Rene posted was that a proper apology was rendered to the Yuen and Yiu Lineage. And from what he says of what Master Sum Nung said to him, he and master yuen were great men of mo dak and skill.
People who truely seek the truth can go to the chinese references I have posted. Its done. So is this topic with you.

[LoneTiger108]

sorry, i meant that i dont think Less Shing's DLT comes from his Gulao village learning (which was prior to learning from Ng Chun So i am led to believe)

again lee Shing also learnt from Jui Chow alongside Jui Wan and Pan Nam, so it COULD be Shunde Weng Chun i guess...

ask your sifu shadow warrior - he also studied some with Lee Shing

Man! I go away for a week and look what happens!! ;)

I can tell you all nothing about this 'so-called' Dai Lim Tao as it wasn't part of my formal training and my Sifu didn't like to talk of it to be honest. Something that was seen as Lee Shings 'personal stuff' and it has only been through Austin Goh and Joe Lee that this info leaked into the mainstream anyway. They were talking about it in the eighties! :rolleyes: According to uncle Joe Lee, it originates from Fung Yee Ming and Fung Sang, which suggests it's from Gulao (Kulo). Ng Jung So may have influenced Lee Shings weaponry more than anything else.

What I will say about DLT though is that personally I too have tried to research and train the form and its sets in many ways. It was actually 'hidden' in my learning, especially the movements and terms. The names were thrown about and never listed until Joe Lee did so in a Combat magazine article in the nineties and now Uncle lists the sets on his site and does link it specifically to pien san:

http://www.josephleewingchun.com/PienSanWingChun.jsp

"The Form consists of the following 12 Handsets;

Siu Lim Tao
Dai Lim Tao
Sam Jheen Choi (Three finger jab)
Biu Choi (Charging/Thrusting punch)
Sap Jee Choi (Reverse meridian/Cross hand punch)
Dip Cheung (Double Butterfly Palm). Alternating low palm strikes.
Lan Kiu (Bar Arm Bridge)
Teet Jee Chum Kiu (Iron Finger Sinking bridge). Back fist flowing into low strike followed by low palm strike.
Tang Ma Biu Jee (Rising thrusting finger with phoenix eye)
Hok Bong (Crane bong). Level Bong Sau, moving into side body with simultaneous attack
Wan Wan Yeu (Life after Death). Using the waist to lean back to avoid strikes detected late, then using the return waist power in the hand strike
Fook Fu (Subduing the Tiger). Mixture b/w Gan and Fak Sau with phoenix eye."

I have yet to see ANYONE really show what it can do (according to my limited knowledge!) and would be very interested to see more variations. Even with the access I have to my uncles I wouldn't like to ask them to even try to discuss such things here as it only ever brought the family troubles! :mad: Ofcourse, now we have the tapes of Lee Shing too which help in some ways to 'formalize' what we teach beginners. DLT was never intended for outsiders.

What I see from Youtube and the mainland sources is almost the same as what I see from Ip family forms. The DLT has become so basic in nature that it has lost the 'kung fu' meaning. The depth is no more and all I see are personal expressions (sansau/sanshou) so as much as it interests me I have to say that this is NOT something that I personally would pin (sic!) to Lee Shings Wing Chun. It definitely should not exist on it's own, or replace any formal training of the WCK curriculums and basic martial art foundation. Without all that, it's pretty pointless imho unless you just want to collect basic techniques. But then again, Siu Lim Tao is pointless without a foundation too! :eek:

[Jim Roselando]

A few thoughts:



Sifu Robert, it is shunde weng chun.

Robert is correct. The 12 Sic of Leung Jan, preserved by the Fung's, have nothing to do with Shunde Weng Chun. JR

Fat jeung, Fok Fu, Fa Kuen etc...are not sets of Kulo.

Fat Jeung and Fa Keun are not Kulo sets but Fook Fu is preserved in Kulo (last of the 12) and has absolutely nothing to do with the Shunde Weng Fook Fu stuff. It is not a "linked set" but rather one simple action repeated 3 times! JR

Example:

Sifu Tam Biu demo of their Fook Fu village Hung looking set:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuiyo-hEDfU

I have videos on these forms perfomed by Shunde Weng Chan/Chan Yiu Ming lineage.

Shunde Weng is showing very strong elements of evolution in their art. The Ging and Dynamics are more similar to common Village Kung Fu like Hung Gar than Wing Chun. One problem is the Wing and Weng arts have so many mish mashed stories it is hard for some to tell where one story began and the other ends..... The second (AND BIGGEST PROBLEM) is many who have added or modified their art tend to not own up to what they have done. Wing and Weng are two totally different animals but because of their relationship they do have some similarities but just superficial..... JR

This doesnt mean it cannot be called Leung Jan Wing Chun, because Chan Wah Shun is a legit source of Leung Jan Wing Chun Kuen.

Leung Jan's teaching in Kulo village is without a doubt a evolution of his "Wing" Chun art. Essentially his 12 were a compressed or core super mini set that represent the beef of the SLT/CK/BJ etc.. I can show anyone where the stuff is found in the 3 Fist Sets of most WC or in Yik Kam's one fist set. On the other hand if you look at almost any Weng Chun art you will certainly see they have a different Ging/Dynamics/Forms etc. and today they have more Hung flavor than Wing or Weng.... JR


Example:

Sifu Tam Biu demo of their Siu Lin Tao with a little village Hung looking stuff added to the end:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytpxkqGNXPs&feature=related


Had a little free time today!


Gotta run tho.


Just a few thoughts for the discussion!



Peace,

[chusauli]

Interesting, so it looks like Kulo wingchun?

Sifu Robert, it is shunde weng chun.

Fat jeung, Fok Fu, Fa Kuen etc...are not sets of Kulo. I have videos on these forms perfomed by Shunde Weng Chan/Chan Yiu Ming lineage.

This doesnt mean it cannot be called Leung Jan Wing Chun, because Chan Wah Shun is a legit source of Leung Jan Wing Chun Kuen.

I think we are confusing Lee Shing's set passed down to Austin Goh which was named "Dai Nim Tao" a combination of moves from Kulo WCK - that is what I am talking about. I believe there are references to it on youtube. It may have coincidentally, the same name as in Shunde WCK.

[LoneTiger108]

I think we are confusing Lee Shing's set passed down to Austin Goh which was named "Dai Nim Tao" a combination of moves from Kulo WCK - that is what I am talking about. I believe there are references to it on youtube. It may have coincidentally, the same name as in Shunde WCK.

Although I am of the Lee Shing family, I still do not know the truth behind the coincidental 'naming' of Dai Nim Tao and for anyone to say it's a combination of moves from Kulo WCK is just fable. Nobody really knows, and from what I have seen Uncle Goh demonstrate it seems to be 'extended' or added to somewhat which gives it that 'Austin' look and feel. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4NXH3Dg0_g

The terms that Uncle Joe Lee uses are correct as far as I know, and that would explain why I had only ever heard the DNT referred to as 'one' of the sets, NOT the name of the 'form'. I've always known of it as Sap Yee Sik, which suggests it's not a 'form' at all. It's a collection of sansau and can be taught in any order, and however you want to teach it. But again it's still something worth researching.

In all honesty it's something we should all have as practitioners. Your own personal 12 sets that come from your experience and journey in Wing Chun, as that's what I feel Leung Jan done at the time.

Then again, maybe it's something bigger altogether? ;)

I think I will be in trouble for this post :( but thanks for listening! :D

[Shadow_warrior8]

My bad for not clarifying,

yes I know the kulo 12 hands and the names
I dont think there is a fakuen san sik in Kulo. Well I could be mistaken.

I was talking about Shunde Wengchun( 顺德永春拳 找錢華 拳術) and the Sets and the book was talking about, the forms
And this 3 forms are found in Shunde Wengchun/Chan Yiu Ming Lineage

Fakuen
Fut Jeung http://www.56.com/u95/v_NDA5MjYwNjg.html
Fok Fu http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltGyg5GA1h8
http://www.56.com/u97/v_MTMzMDgwNjI.html
陈华顺（找钱华）传下来的永春十多套拳套之一“伏虎”。

Sharing more on the fist from my hometown, Shunde
http://www.56.com/u91/v_NDU0NjA3MDQ.html
http://www.56.com/u94/v_NDEyNDk5OTU.html
http://www.56.com/u79/v_MjIyNzUwNjg.html
http://www.56.com/u46/v_NDU0NjA4MzU.html

永春拳小念头四门
http://www.56.com/u54/v_MTM4NjI4NTk.html
http://www.56.com/u54/v_NDc3NDYwMjc.html
陈汝棉系永春小练四门 (由顺德谭焕标师父的弟子表演的陈汝棉系永春小练头与四门拳。陈汝棉系永春可以将小练头与四门拳连在一起来 演示) Sil Lim Tao, and 4 doors

Chum Kil
http://www.56.com/u39/v_MTM4NjMxOTY.html

Sil Lim Tao
http://www.56.com/u82/v_MTM4NjI1MzU.html

找钱华永春拳 wooden dummy set
http://www.56.com/u69/v_NDM5ODc5MTQ.html

Enjoy....

[LoneTiger108]

Quality stuff imho and thanks for sharing...

Out of curiosity though, what is the explanation behind starting with the right hand? And do you agree with my uncles terms for the 12 sets?

[Shadow_warrior8]

Quality stuff imho and thanks for sharing...

Out of curiosity though, what is the explanation behind starting with the right hand? And do you agree with my uncles terms for the 12 sets?

sorry not quite sure who you are asking
But if you are asking me, I respect the teacher and the way.
If its my art, I might change it. If its others hard work passed to me, then I follow the tradition.
For stuff that I meshed together like my wingchun with white crane power, then I would name it what I want to because I didnt learn it as 1 systems but 2.

The starting is salutation, much like fan qing fok ming as signature. Alot of lineages have their own salutation.

[LoneTiger108]

sorry not quite sure who you are asking

I was interested to see the SLT form sets start with the right hand, as all Ip family and Lee family start with the left hand. Has this been explained to you?

I can remember something about the left hand learning first as the right hand picks it up easier that way. If you try in reverse it's more difficult! (IF you're right handed!)

And would the names for the 12 sets be the same/similar to the ones I posted from my uncle Joe Lee?

FWIW Lee Shing had his own salutation, as did my Sifu and as I do too! ;)

[Shadow_warrior8]

A very nice, factual article by their descendents. Highest respect and last post on this topic.

咏春拳源流史略

——阮奇山.岑能一脉承传的历史沿革

阮祖棠 岑迪斯 周赐禧

根据有关文史资料，佛山博物馆有关档案记载及阮奇山、岑能两代宗师口述历史，整理出以阮奇山—岑能—广州咏 春系统为脉络主线的咏春拳史略，谨供研究咏春拳发展历史的人士参考。
咏春拳派始祖，为五枚尼姑。相传五枚师太早年在四川峨眉山修道，常往来于群山秀水之间，时有目睹鹤蛇相斗， 因而悟化山一套长于打斗的拳技。这是距今二百多年的传闻。
此拳创自女流，外在风格似婉约娴静，实质却是一套十分讲求技击效能，杀技凌厉的武技拳法。
由于该拳法创始人五枚师太自身的女性体能特征，如企求在极短时效内制胜力量型的强势攻击，就必须要结合力点 力角力距，触觉以及腰马变势和机巧的攻防角位的运用。故该拳技与其他拳术在技法和理论上都有较 大差别。
五枚师太曾在广州河南宁隐庵隐居过较长时间，闲时习武并收授庵内尼姑为徒。
五枚大师早期的传人中，一名是广州河南二龙街的屠户谢发，又名谢育发，曾拜宁隐庵内尼姑为师学习这套被五枚 大师早期弟子称为“五枚拳”的武技。以后谢发将五枚拳法传授给五个儿子，当地人称“谢家五虎” 。
当时得五枚师太衣砵真传者，其中一个就是苗顺。苗顺对五枚拳法悟性颇高，以后将该拳法去短取长创新，在日后 传授给严二。
严二曾精习洪拳。这位反清义士是福建泉州洪门分舵的“红棍。”(洪门组织内分管武装的职位)。其他如“白扇 ”(军师)“草鞋”(交通情报)等，由于反事败露遭官府通缉，严二携家从福建迁居广东连城。(今粤北连州市 )在连城县郊以卖豆腐为生。后来严二有幸得以结织苗顺，遂得五枚拳之道。
严二的长女严咏春，俗名严三娘，天资超脱，自幼随父弄拳习武，尽得五枚拳真传。
此时，另一位反清复明义士梁博涛，(江西人氏)亦因躲避官府追捕落难连城县，为严二所收留。后来梁博涛入赘 严家，与咏春三娘结为夫妻。严二去世后，严咏春与丈夫梁博涛移居广东粤北南雄县，并将五枚拳法相授梁博涛。 以后严咏春病故，梁博涛就在南雄县设馆授拳。为怀念爱妻之恩，梁博涛遂将五枚拳改称为“咏春拳”。也就是说 ，咏春拳创于五枚，命名始于梁博涛。
此时的咏春拳功技系列的拳、棍、刀、桩功法已臻完善。
佛山粤剧红船的琼花会馆中，几位梨园弟子王华宝、陆锦(大花面锦)，高佬忠等随红船戏班上南雄演戏。酷爱粤 剧的梁博涛每当戏班上演必前往捧场。王华宝主演的关云长忠肝义胆，大花面锦的张飞扮相武风凛凛，高佬忠的刘 备义薄云天，感动了台下的梁博涛，萌生与三人结交之意，一回生几回熟，再经有心人撮合，梁博涛与王华宝，大 花面锦，高佬忠一见如故。梁博涛无子女无牵挂，毅然随红船戏班南下，定居于广州。以后梁博涛更将王华宝，大 花面锦，高佬忠收为入室弟子。
日后王华宝将咏春拳技传授给戏班好友梁二娣。梁二娣得技后又将拳技传给鹤山县古劳乡人士梁赞。在王华宝五十 寿辰之际，梁二娣携徒梁赞前往祝寿，梁赞因此结识王华宝。王华宝对梁赞赏识之余；更将梁赞作为关门弟子纳于 门下。

在广州师承梁博涛习咏春拳技的大花面锦(陆锦)技成后一直留在广州。以后大花面锦更以咏春拳技造就了战功赫 赫，威震江湖的武林枭雄，一代名捕冯少青。其时已进入晚清乾嘉年代。
冯少青是广东顺德人氏，武功卓越铁血侠义，曾在香山县(今中山市)都司衙门和粤制台府任武职。自咸丰八年起 (1858年)作为随伺武官追随清代名臣湖南巡抚骆秉章(广东花县人。曾国藩政治集团的重要幕僚。曾任湖北 按察使，贵州布政史，云南藩司)帐下忠心效力。咸丰十一年骆秉章擢任四川总督，冯少青受命执掌蜀中治安，在 提刑按察司府总捕头职任上，(负责治安、刑狱的省级司法机关)与各路强梁悍匪兵戎厮杀血溅刀锋。写下他毕生 最具色彩的铿锵传奇。从1858年起至1867年骆秉章病逝川督任上，冯少青在骆秉章麾下九年的叱咤功业为 咏春拳历史留下铁血华章。
再说佛山镇富商阮宠明，娶一妻二妾，其两名儿子阮济云、阮奇山兄弟天性嗜武，自幼便师随咏春拳名师霍保全修 练咏春拳技多年，功夫造诣非凡。其时旅居安南(今越南)的华人劳工常遭当地黑帮势力欺凌勒索。为保身家安危 ，当地华人团体“南番顺同乡会”出资礼聘阮济云往安南授武，嗜武如命的阮济云舍弃大富之家的安逸生活，欣然 前往安南广宁北部山区的铅锌矿场，为华人矿工传授咏春拳技。后来在一场华人劳工与当地黑帮势力的恶性冲突中 ，双方涉案触犯刑法均遭安南治安当局现场抓捕。阮济云在双手被手铐戒扣的情况下仍重创多名黑帮分子。阮济云 此役成为千秋佳话。后来阮济云顺应警方开出的交换条件，在河内留驻四年将咏春武功传授给一批高级警官，以作 其涉案相抵功过。之后阮济云先后在海防等几个城
市传扬武技，以后定居西贡。今日越南及东南亚国家及中国广西有其传人在延续咏春拳的承传，
回头再说阮宠明，晚清举人，家世显赫。除在佛山和省城经营多家工厂商号外包括当时佛山街知巷闻的药行“阮时 和堂”）阮宠明亦受朝廷册封正四品直奉大夫，署理直隶、奉天（今河北、辽宁）两省教育、文化、宗教、邮政事 务。阮宠明的官职是捐任的，当时有买官补缺制度，所捐官职实职任用，买官者须具备相对才干的俊 贤。
由于官场的相交相惜，阮宠明将原配夫人所生的女儿(即阮奇山同父异母姐姐)阮聘如许配骆秉章次子骆天诒(举 人)。由于骆、阮两家的姻亲关系，阮氏兄弟早已拜识令湘蜀强贼悍匪望风披糜的四川总捕头冯少青 的赫赫威名。

四川历来是多事之地，又是匪患的重灾区。冯少青追随骆秉章麾下九年，在四川提刑按察司府捕总任上血溅江湖， 与反叛朝廷的少数民族部族对垒厮杀，与奸盗劫掠的恶棍短兵肉搏，镇压匪患刀锋见红，审裁刑罪峻法酷刑，如凌 迟、炮烙等。对官匪勾结铁腕惩治，与官场弊恶势同水火。冯少青的铁血政策改善了四川严峻的治安局面，同时也 触犯和得罪尽朝野各方既得利益者．正应对了一个真理：“当一个人最终站在胜利的高地上时，也许身上己伤痕累 累”。所指伤痕有皮肉之伤，也有被奸妄传言的中伤。
世事无常，历史跌荡。同治六年，(1867年)骆秉章病逝川督任上，冯少青顿失官场靠山，一段叱咤江湖的辉 煌人生也走到了尽头。一年之后，已在官场举步为艰难以立足的冯少青，向继任骆秉章后对他并不信任和重用的川 督吴棠辞掉官职，淡出曾经踌躇满志的仕途，偕同一帮仕途失势的亲信部属同僚出走缅甸，到异国他 乡谋生去也。
冯少青在异国飘泊多年，至回归故里已是74岁花甲之龄，一直终生未有婚娶。如返乡终老亦只有与孤寂相伴终生 。冯少青从缅甸返国即落脚佛山，亦正是得于天道机缘之合。唯因冯少青是情义中人，他自缅甸返国第一站即径奔 佛山，亦是为探访恩公骆秉章的遗属。(骆秉章虽出生花县，但从曾祖父一代于乾隆年间已从花县迁居佛山，骆秉 章出生不久便移居佛山与父亲骆栩元同住。骆秉章后代也在佛山落地生根)亦唯因阮家与骆家的关系渊源而与冯少 青曾有交往。正好阮宠明厚爱其第五子阮奇山的武学天资，得知冯少青回国行踪，遂扶驾暮年之躯亲往求贤，不惜 以重金礼聘冯少青客居佛山镇的直奉大夫府第“桑园”(今佛山福贤路)深造阮奇山的咏春功技。(其时四子阮济 云已赴安南)其间佛山镇知名人士，制药业巨
头马伯良之子马仲如，迁善堂少东赵简卿，英聚茶楼东主罗厚普，筷子街肉店东主区仕，南海邵边乡人黎光甫等人 亦厚礼求师，拜于冯少青门下研习咏春武学。冯少青78岁病逝佛山。
阮奇山是多家工厂商号的少东，又是民国地方政府的状师，被广东武术界和民间称誉为“佛山阮老揸”的阮奇山， 日后成为佛山咏春拳宗派的领袖人物之一。其技服以腿功享誉北国武林的于姓拳师和万寿宫比棍一役，令堪称一棍 之祖的北方骠悍僧人臣服其“六点半棍法”之下的经典战例，风糜三十年代的广东武林，并在佛山上一代人中有口 皆碑，作为咏春拳一代宗师的阮奇山，亦是咏春拳宗派的理论奠基人而名垂武林历史。
历史掀过去沧桑一页，咏春拳近代史上一位杰出的人物岑能横空出世。

岑能1926年出生于秘鲁，有母亲的秘鲁血统和父亲的中国血统的混血儿岑能，5岁时随家人从秘鲁返回故乡广 东南海深村乡仁和村探亲游览。不幸太平洋战事阻隔了中国与海外的通航，岑能一夜之间由一名富门弟子成了失去 双亲一贫如洗的孤儿。12岁时，为谋生计岑能经人介绍在佛山镇天海茶楼当杂工。这名生性驯良的茶楼小伙计在 恶人横行的社会免不了常受欺侮。胜在岑能做事勤快天资聪颖，深得茶楼点心师父张保喜爱。张保是一位咏春拳师 ，为使岑能自保自强，将岑能收为徒弟授以咏春拳技。岑能习武刻苦，悟性甚高。其后再随另一位咏春名师韦玉笙 学习伤科医术，岑能的武学天赋为张保的挚友阮奇山赏识，在张保力荐下，阮奇山将岑能揽于门下，作为入室弟子 ，将武功悉数尽传，其时岑能年仅18岁，然已武功精湛，在广佛地区已是声名大噪。1948年岑能只身闯荡省 城广州自立谋生，在广州大德路开设医武馆。并先后受聘于打铁工会，饮食工会，五金工会等组织， 授拳行医。
此后数十年间，岑能为咏春拳发展付出毕生精力，传下的弟子遍布世界数十个国家和地区,并成为当 代咏春拳宗

[Pacman]

shadow, you are full of sh!t and i think you know it.

the video is not doctored. the sound is bad. whoever made it must have used a camcorder to film his computer or something. here is the link in a chinese site to show it is not doctored. for those who dont understand cantonese, you are out of luck. the original youtube link that renee posted in post #1 has the translation

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTg3MDY2NTky.html

linking to chinese wikipedia doesn't mean anything either. after all, wiki is user contributed and there are many people who wish to speak BS like you. i listed real people that you can go talk to. i also cited government records made at the time (much different than citing a privately owned yip man museum). go ahead and talk to them. they are worth more than a wikipedia webpage.




I am sure, everyone who reads this thread can see the difference in my information versus what you post and who really has any proper references, videos, websites, names, chinese articles, information from both sides, ip and yuen, yiu, master fung, master tam, master kwok fu, master leung niu, master yuen jo tong, goverment owned foshan musuem, goverment owned ip man tong, kulo goverment, in english, chinese etc.... Even when you search yuen kay san in mainland china websites, their famous hudong website or Wikipedia- what is said about Master Yuen.
http://www.hudong.com/wiki/%E9%98%AE%E5%A5%87%E5%B1%B1%E5%92%8F%E6%98%A5%E6%8 B%B3
http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-hk/%E9%98%AE%E5%A5%87%E5%B1%B1

It sure beats some doctored video with people laughing behind, of pics and news, and a load of stories that cant even be proven. Nothing in the current has been shown, not even the so called yelling of Yuen Jo Tong at Ip Chun about the house- was never reported. All you can say I reference Ip Ching or Samuel Kwok(once? twice?) This is page 11. If you cant even show me something you claim in the present, I will let those who view the thread decide whether they can believe the stories in the past. And deliberately avoid questions or proof staring you in your face.

Having said that, its just this, history about people who have passed on, you believe your source, I posted mine. Let those who see decide.

What Rene posted was that a proper apology was rendered to the Yuen and Yiu Lineage. And from what he says of what Master Sum Nung said to him, he and master yuen were great men of mo dak and skill.
People who truely seek the truth can go to the chinese references I have posted. Its done. So is this topic with you.

[Shadow_warrior8]

shadow, you are full of sh!t and i think you know it.

the video is not doctored. the sound is bad. whoever made it must have used a camcorder to film his computer or something. here is the link in a chinese site to show it is not doctored. for those who dont understand cantonese, you are out of luck. the original youtube link that renee posted in post #1 has the translation

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTg3MDY2NTky.html

linking to chinese wikipedia doesn't mean anything either. after all, wiki is user contributed and there are many people who wish to speak BS like you. i listed real people that you can go talk to. i also cited government records made at the time (much different than citing a privately owned yip man museum). go ahead and talk to them. they are worth more than a wikipedia webpage.

This reply made my day because you have revealed the level of your information, your ability to understand chinese culture, words, language, the research, everything.
It also says I no longer need to response with solid evidence from china or chinese references since you dont read mandarin at all, all I need to do is tell stories and quote people with my own text, and call it references. Oh and 1 place called wingchun hall of fame and 1 doctored video.

You have ZERO credibility. You have just shown you dont read a word of chinese(explains alot) or understand the cantonese language at all. Otherwise you would know the text and the videos are not saying the same thing.
When you cant even tell the difference in a video report versus chinese text from articles?
Still howling about Ip Man Tong despite all the other references? Thats exactly why I brought up Foshan and Kulo Goverment sources.

Why you posting my videos and claiming credit???
This is exactly the same link I have been posted, same video I posted on youtube.
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTg3MDY2NTky.html 2.55mins
My video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5njdTJvxnA 2.55mins

Your orginal video you claim all the rubbish and so called translation about
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ash3CY-9Ovo&feature=related 1.20mins
with doctored pictures. See the original video has no pictures of the tea apology, and is 2.55 mins. Yours removed audio with people laughing, so people are lied to about what was really reported. Sound is bad? BS. You are full of it..... You cant even explain this or tell the difference, using it as a reference. Lol....

Still nothing on Yuen Jo Tong yelling at Ip Chun about the house? It didnt happen. He has more class and even he said it was regretful to meet Ip Chun for the first time under this circumstances when they shook hands. Cant even produce proof of your claim. I have done so in every area. Statement- Evidence. All backed up. No wonder you cant talk about the chinese stuff or get the chinese articles I asked for or comment on what I posted from China. You dont speak or understand the language.

Ask a chinese guy who understand cantonese tell you what the video says. There are some here, the seniors who read write chinese, hokkien, cantonese. They can verify it.

I challenge you to translate the 2.55mins report here. Do it....

This is rene posted text, from articles it is not from the video
>Wing Chun master Si Kwok Lam and Yip Chun co-produced movie "Yip man", who had apologized 6 times and "served Tea" to Yuen Kay San's grandson(left in picture, wearing glasses) for misrepresenting and disrespectful to the Lengendary death dual champion during 1920-1950s during a news conference in China, Mr. Si and Yip admitted in front of documents and witness that Yuen Kay San represented Wing Chun family and answer all the public death duals in Foshan in those years, he is senior to Yipman in the Wing Chun family tree.

This is also from the newspaper article and I posted in full on page 1- not like conmen style posting bits of it like your video.
>Mr. Xi Kwok Lam (Yip Man’s son’s student and movie producer of the Ip Man 3) apologized and served tea to Yuen Jo Tong for misreprensenting his grandfather Yuen Kay San’s reputation and status in Wing Chun history. (In the movie, Yuen Kay San was portrayed as Yip Man’s younger Kung Fu brother, not as skillfull as Yipman)[9].

This part is also from the newspaper article I posted and a small translation of the article
http://culture.china.com.cn/lishi/2010-07/08/content_20450101.htm
>Three Heroes of Wing Chun
>Yao Wing Ken (Yoa Choy’s grandson) explains that, "in the old days of Foshan, his grandfather Yao Choy, Yip Man and Yuen Kay San were called the "Three Heroes of Wing Chun" and often mentioned together. Yuen Kay San's disciple Leung Jan Sing also provided an ancestral document indicating that Yuen Kay San studied with Feng Shui Ching, while Yipman and others studied under Yuen. This record was passed down in the 70's of last century. Although Yip Man is not necessarily Yuen’s official student, in the order of seniority on the family tree, Yuen Kay San ranked at the first level, with Yip Man being last. It would be normal for Yip Man to ask Yuen Kay San for instruction.
Below is the original Chinese quoted from the original article in the Dayoo Newspaper of Guangzhou:
还原历史： 　　“咏春三雄”齐名 　 　姚永强介绍，当年在佛山，他的爷爷姚才与叶问、阮奇山并称“咏春三雄”，三人齐名，武功不相 上下。阮奇山 的徒孙梁湛声还提供了祖传的记录，记录上写明， 阮奇山师从冯少青，而叶问与其他多个咏春武者一同在阮奇山的门下。“这本记录是上世纪70年代 留下的， 这也不能说叶问是他的徒弟，但论资历，阮奇山排第 一，叶问最后，叶问向他请教很正常。
^ "冼国林向阮祖棠斟茶道 (Xi Kwok Lam serves tea to Yuen Jo Tong)". Yang Sing National Newspaper (China). 2010. Retrieved 2010-07-16.
^ "还原历史： (Restore History)". Dayoo Newspaper (Guangzhou, China). 2010. Retrieved 2010-07-18.

Not even Foshan Musuem can support your statements because Ip Man is listed there in great detail. Foshan museum also privately owned like you claim of Ip Man Tong?

Your references???
Some of the people I have spoken to over the years include
- The widow of Sum Nung's student, Cheung, who is also close to the Leung Sheung family
- Sum Nung's indoor student Kevin Chan (not the guy who teaches in SF)
- Historian Chow (forgot his given name at the moment)
- Master of Yao Gung Moon in LA
- Hung Ga Master in NY who told me everyone in Fatsan knows that no one comes close to the skills of Sum Nung and YKS(also forgot his name but its the same person who taught Robert Chu)
- Ng Jung from Hong Kong, who is a grandstudent of Wong Wah Bo. He demonstrated to me and Kevin Chan Wong Wah Bo's 12 forms and 108 movements for the 6.5 staff
Also I forgot until now, but there is a branch of WC called Pao Fa Lien, which has roots with Fung Siu Chung too. I believe that they have many open handed forms. I think a total of 12. Here is something I found on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiBMTLGfC3E
Anyways, here is another book I have by Hon Quon Guo. He is in Leung Jan's lineage.

These are your references and some talk on Fung Siu Ching, Pao Fa Lin. Anyone from china?
What has Ng Jung got to do with Ip Man? Or Pao Fa Lin? What has Cheung, Chan, Chow, Yao got to do with Ip Man? I thought you spoke directly to Master Sum Nung? No reference to such an important source? What is important is Rene did talk to Sum Nung and he said no such thing as you said.

My references - all from China
Master Ip ching- Ip Family
Master Leung Niu- Yuen Family
Master Yuen Jo Tong- Yuen Family
Master Yiu- Yiu Family
Master Kwok Fu- Ip Family
Master Fung- Kulo
Master tam- Shunde Wengchun
Foshan musuem- China Goverment
Ip man tong- China Goverment
Kulo goverment- China Goverment
10 pages of articles in english, chinese from students of ip man as well as students of yuen, and chinese reports in chinese. You? A few pics alot of stories from your own text.

You cant change history, the past, what happened with lies. Lying or spinning stories about Ip Man who has passed on wouldnt change his accomplisements. The family line what happened is very well recorded by all familes in the Jou Bou. I know you are very bitter jealous of Ip Man fame, and bruce lee and ip man tong and millions of students throughout the world so you try your best to slander his name, lies. But Master Yuen and Master Sum Nung is very well documented in china by his grandson and has written extensively to Martial Hero Magazine and to the public, he has his fame in China to billions as well.
Dont have to win any online argument, its already done- very clearly.
In the www.wushu2008.cn Mainland's main kungfu forum, this topic has been commented heavily by Yuen and Sum descedents because they are many in China, they were angry at the movie, angry at the people who made the movie or involved but not once did they mention a bad note about ip man. No one tells the defamatory lies you post, angry yes. Post **** about ip man abilities and life- NO.

Thank goodness for me somethings are just 1 phone call away. So we dont have people pull the wool over chinese people eyes. 1 video, the content dont lie. 2-3 newspaper article, the words dont lie. When these 2 are combined in a malicious way, it does- lie big time.

Here one of the guangzhou Yuen lineage Sifu post, humility, mo dak all shown graciously here
佛山三雄：阮.姚.叶.有长达30年一起练武团聚交流的日子，友情.咏技.现代人难于评价…… ！
我说的还原历史，当年佛山三雄、阮、姚、叶、几十年好友共同练武，功力各有所长，难分高下

Fatshan 3 heros, Yuen, Yiu, Ip. 30 years of training, friendship, exchanging. Modern people cannot understand this kind of relationship
Yuen, Yiu, Ip, few decades of friendship and practicing together, each of them had unique abilities themselves, it was hard to say who was better(they were too humble to say so they would say it was equal- trademark of chinese humility and mo dak)

[Pacman]

first thing i want to say. previously i referenced some things that happened in the apology meeting that were not shown in the short video clip or mentioned in the article, such as yuen jo tong telling yip chun that entire mulberry garden was part of the yuen estate, and that no yip every owned property there.

you asked me where i got my information about that and other things. i sidestepped that question, but now i got permission so i can tell you. i spoke to yuen jo tong himself over the phone after the meeting. this is why i know you are full of BS when you say you know Yuen Jo Tong. You must know of him, but you do not know him.

As for the rest of the BS...

It is funny your link trace back to Sum Nung, it shows you that people use Yuen kay San and Sum Neng as a standard as good WC:

http://www.hudong.com/wiki/%E5%88%A8%E8%8A%B1%E8%8E%B2%E5%92%8F%E6%98%A5%E6%8 B%B3

Below is the translation: title: Pow fa lin Wing Chun typical chi gung...according Sum Neng...

刨花莲咏春拳-经典功法

咏春气功
肾气归元气功崇尚自然。在功法上是自然呼吸，不别家气功那样把呼吸压抑为腹式的慢、细、悠、长，也无须固守 丹田。此功法能疏通各个经络脏腑，发功快，见效速，使神、体、气三者即人的精神、形体和气息有效地结合起来 ，经过回圈渐进，持之以恒地认真锻炼，从而使五脏六腑、十二经脉、奇经八脉等得到充分的调理，进而达到保健 强身、防病治病、抵御早衰、延年益寿的目的。
据岑能先生介绍，肾气归元功法是咏春拳的收功法。在练习完咏春的各套拳法（如小念头、寻桥、标指等）和功法 （木人桩、卧虎功、红砂手等）后，均须练习肾气归元功，意在将所练功法的功力纳入体内，为己所藏，所谓功法 是也。故我咏春同门中人不可不察、不可不练

Shadow you said:"...I have the book, it doesnt say nothing about Ip Man 3 forms or Yuen Kay San. What you talking about Chan Wah Shun anyway, it has no reference to Master Yuen..."

But it suggests that Yip Man wasn't a top student of Chan Wah Shen!, otherwise he would be teaching the 12 forms from Leung Jan --Chen Wah Shen lineage, instead of the 3 forms from YKS. We already know Yip Man only learned from Chan Wah Shen for a few months so that makes sense.

"...yourself why yiu choi and yip man are not there despite being part of the "3 heroes of wing chun"

You mean this? From Foshan
http://www.foshanmuseum.com/wbzy/xsl...sp?xsyj_ID=261
http://www.foshanmuseum.com/mrmj/mrm...sub.asp?id=117 "
tells you heaps about Ip man, and Leung Jan "

Your link of Fatshan museum is very clearly stated it is built in 2002 , it is a Yip man Tong, the other only memtion Leung Jan and Yipman and Bruce Lee, no where mention of 3 heroes, or any other branches WC, it is so clear that Yipman is a Leung Jan lineage but can not demonstrated any Leung Jan's 12 forms and 108 technique, but Chan Wah Shen's grandson can.

Shadow's post #125 :"...And Kwok Fu said, Ip man would stop them from practicing when Yuen came over. "

Probably because Yuen told him not to teach his sticky hands?

Shadow said:
For everyone information, when Ip chun went with Checkly Sim to see Yuen Jo Tong, they nearly came to blows. So dont be putting my lineage in a demeaning way as if they had to beg on their knees and beg for forgiveness because they were so afraid of Yuen Family Skills. That article read by a chinese person would know exactly what it means. That why I posted it in chinese. Checkley sim was taking a position of a junior to seniors, as I will also in front of my seniors. Its not a matter of right and wrong. Its chinese tradition to respect our seniors in the art.

later Shadow said: #107
"Senior in what? What does Yuen family say? Or his other friend Yiu's family?
They were from different lineages. Senior in age? Sure. Master Yuen was reportedly a few years younger than Master Leung Jan..."

Self conflicting statment, trying to patch every hole to make it look "perfect"

This is the reason Yuen Jo Tong insisted on a more defined public apology after Yip Chun's 6 attempts at a verbal apology in the conference. In the end Yuen was not satisfied and didn't even drink the tea, but instead asked for some OJ and drank it and got out of there.

He was afraid of slick talkers like Shadow twisting the whole thing to fool people later. One should think why would anyone look so angry after a junior offer a respectful cup of tea 6 times

[wkmark]

Wow... I never imagined that this story is STILL being discussed here.

Anyways, Just to clear it up, the foreigners who were there actually was not even AWARE that the entire event was an apology meeting for the misrepresentation of the Yuen and Yiu family in the MOVIE. There were there because they knew that Ip Chun would be there, so they wanted to meet him and take pictures with him. Theses foreigners were indeed the students of Sin Kwok Lam's Sisok. The event did almost come to blows because of some misunderstanding on Yuen's part on why the foreigners were there.

The tea apology is a common courtesy to apologize for misunderstandings as well as to avoid having issues blow up more than it really needs to. A pubic statement of the misrepresentation was also needed since the movie was already out and the Yeun's family wanted to ensure that they are not "looked down upon" as casted in the movie.

It was pretty much THAT simple. The heated point only started when the foreigners showed up, which Yuen misunderstood and thought Yip group was trying to show force with the amount of people they had.

Anyways... This is just to let people know in case they were wondering who the foreigners were. And yes I do know the people who were at that meeting personally.

[Pacman]

they CLAIMED that they were just there to meet him.

according to yuen jo tong he asked si kwok who those people were. si kwok said "i dont know i think they are just fans of ip chun or the movie maybe". then yuen jo tong said "why the hell would they all be standing against the wall, blocking the exits, with their arms folded across their chest looking angry?! they dont look like fans to me!". you see, si kwok did not know that yuen jo tong was going to bring the press. si kwok is a former gangster, a loan shark who is now in the movie business. he most likely brought those foreigners because he knew people would be more hesitant to fight foreigners. these days, the government is more protective of foreigners in china.

to shadow warrior--you are crazy. i speak cantonese and i can read chinese. my family is actually from sun duk too. i can also speak mandarin. you just make these claims, despite the fact that i cited things in your links that are written in chinese. you make no sense


Wow... I never imagined that this story is STILL being discussed here.

Anyways, Just to clear it up, the foreigners who were there actually was not even AWARE that the entire event was an apology meeting for the misrepresentation of the Yuen and Yiu family in the MOVIE. There were there because they knew that Ip Chun would be there, so they wanted to meet him and take pictures with him. Theses foreigners were indeed the students of Sin Kwok Lam's Sisok. The event did almost come to blows because of some misunderstanding on Yuen's part on why the foreigners were there.

The tea apology is a common courtesy to apologize for misunderstandings as well as to avoid having issues blow up more than it really needs to. A pubic statement of the misrepresentation was also needed since the movie was already out and the Yeun's family wanted to ensure that they are not "looked down upon" as casted in the movie.

It was pretty much THAT simple. The heated point only started when the foreigners showed up, which Yuen misunderstood and thought Yip group was trying to show force with the amount of people they had.

Anyways... This is just to let people know in case they were wondering who the foreigners were. And yes I do know the people who were at that meeting personally.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


It is almost impossible to have 100% accuracy with these historical stories and info.. Every person who records info is recording someones understanding of a story passed down. So, unless you look at numerous pieces of info with an open mind you will never come up with a more likely.

Ex: Leung Jan

I have interviewed numerous sources from Kulo family and each one will have different info.. Ex: the birth/death deaths in his family estate states: 1826-1901. Fung Sang's Info said he passed in 1888 but the one thing they both had in common was they both say he lives until he was about 75/76 years of age. Both are close to the same age but off by 13 Years! (maybe one is using Chinese calendar and the other not or maybe they both have different info.). This is a perfect example of ten people will have ten stories.

Wing Chun and Weng Chen are two different animals. In Chan Yiu Min Weng Chun you can clearly see where their Wing ends and their Weng begins just from watching their clips. No doubt there has been a fusion of arts plus village kung Fu added over the years. Yuen Kay San WIng Chun is also a fusion of wing chun from Fok Bo Chuen and weng chun from Fung Siu Ching and Wing'd up Cheung Bo stuff plus some ba gwa or toaist qigong. Leung Jan's Kulo teaching is a fusion of his Wing Chun from both his teachers plus his own modifications. Most of todays Cho family is a combo of Yik Kam
wing chun plus Choy Li Fut and other village kung Fu. The point to write this is to show we are all modified/evolved arts with evolved stories.

Just look at the Wong Fei Hong story. Right now we have numerous people saying
they all beat him in a chiallenge match. Chan, Yuen, Leung Jan etc... Guess what? If you go to ten villages you will get ten stories. In Kulo the people state it was LJ who
bested Wong Fei Hong in competition. One of the posters in LJ's estate was supposed to share the story of their meeting but the locals state they changed the last name to give face to Wong and Hung Gar. They call him Wong Fei 'Long' (dragon) from the north.

I have posted some of this story in this article:

www.w1ng.com/the-kung-fu-king-stories-from-kulo-hoksan

In the end we should just preserve as many stories/info as possible and go from there. These arts are so difficult to sift thru because there are so many mish mash stories
and arts it is brutal for us to be 100% on anything! The one thing for sure is there is Wing Chun & Weng Chun and there is no doubt they have been evolving side by side for many years now.

A little free time on this holiday!


Gotta run.


Peace,
Jim

[A Joyful Proces]

si kwok is a former gangster, a loan shark who is now in the movie business. I'm barely skimming this thread, but Sin Kwok Lam is my sigung, this is completely untrue. He's a banker, holds law degrees & is a respectable student of both Ip Chun & Lau Kar Leung; he is neither gangster or loan shark.

[Pacman]

there is a lot more info and evidence from the third parties like official government files and texts from China that the west doesn't know about. For obvious reasons many students don't know about it.

As there is more video footage of the apology news conference that was not aired in public, like when Si Kwok Lim said," Everyone knows Yuen Kay San represented WC and took on all the public challenges, and he was Senior to Yipman in the WC family..."

Also, in Yip Chun's WC book, it mention his father knew Japanese...
Readers are not all stupid, they know what is fiction and wishing, and what is official documents and why a third party means objective statements.

"love is blind" especially when you have a whole chain of school and businesses behind it. For the same reason Yuen family never tried to "break anyone's rice bowl", until someone insulted them. Yuen believes in harmony and peace too

[Hongkuenmia]

they CLAIMED that they were just there to meet him.

according to yuen jo tong he asked si kwok who those people were. si kwok said "i dont know i think they are just fans of ip chun or the movie maybe". then yuen jo tong said "why the hell would they all be standing against the wall, blocking the exits, with their arms folded across their chest looking angry?! they dont look like fans to me!". you see, si kwok did not know that yuen jo tong was going to bring the press. si kwok is a former gangster, a loan shark who is now in the movie business. he most likely brought those foreigners because he knew people would be more hesitant to fight foreigners. these days, the government is more protective of foreigners in china.

to shadow warrior--you are crazy. i speak cantonese and i can read chinese. my family is actually from sun duk too. i can also speak mandarin. you just make these claims, despite the fact that i cited things in your links that are written in chinese. you make no sense

I am a hong kuen student of the Lau family, Sin Kwok Lam is my Sigung. Not only is he a well respected member of the Martial arts community but also a successful banker, business man and lawyer. He is not a gangster nor a loan shark and you should feel thoroughly ashamed of yourself to libellously attack a man who is held in such high esteem. He has spent many years mastering various fighting styles and is a dedicated promoter and practitioner of Kung fu. In future I suggest you keep your lies and deformation to yourself.

[wkmark]

Pacman-

You are hearing the story from Yuen's side. I am hearing it from the other side. Thus even IF we were BOTH there, our views of the situation would have our own interpretations. The foreigners were not brought there by Sin Kwok Lam. They weren't even on the same train heading up to the meeting. They weren't in the same train heading back from the meeting either. If you want to believe that the foreigners were brought there by Sin Kwok Lam, then go ahead and believe that. but the truth of the matter is that the guys were not.

As for the comment on Sin Kwok Lam. I SERIOUSLY suggest you have creditable reference before accusing him of being a former gangster/ loan shark.. etc.


they CLAIMED that they were just there to meet him.

according to yuen jo tong he asked si kwok who those people were. si kwok said "i dont know i think they are just fans of ip chun or the movie maybe". then yuen jo tong said "why the hell would they all be standing against the wall, blocking the exits, with their arms folded across their chest looking angry?! they dont look like fans to me!". you see, si kwok did not know that yuen jo tong was going to bring the press. si kwok is a former gangster, a loan shark who is now in the movie business. he most likely brought those foreigners because he knew people would be more hesitant to fight foreigners. these days, the government is more protective of foreigners in china.

[t_niehoff]

"love is blind" especially when you have a whole chain of school and businesses behind it. For the same reason Yuen family never tried to "break anyone's rice bowl", until someone insulted them. Yuen believes in harmony and peace too

Love CAN be blind -- even without a "whole chain of school and businesses behind it."

It's not that "Yuen family never tried to "break anyone's rice bowl", until . . . " They NEVER tried. Ever. Only YOU are.

What's ironic is that YOU are doing the very things you object to (the Yip folks having done) -- being blinded by your lineage, throwing around false stories, etc. Two wrongs . . . .

BTW, what is your real name?

[Pacman]

Hello,
Wing Chun and Weng Chen are two different animals. In Chan Yiu Min Weng Chun you can clearly see where their Wing ends and their Weng begins just from watching their clips. No doubt there has been a fusion of arts plus village kung Fu added over the years. Yuen Kay San WIng Chun is also a fusion of wing chun from Fok Bo Chuen and weng chun from Fung Siu Ching and Wing'd up Cheung Bo stuff plus some ba gwa or toaist qigong. Leung Jan's Kulo teaching is a fusion of his Wing Chun from both his teachers plus his own modifications. Most of todays Cho family is a combo of Yik Kam
wing chun plus Choy Li Fut and other village kung Fu. The point to write this is to show we are all modified/evolved arts with evolved stories.


glad you gave some clarity to this. it is important to clarify that not all WCK is the same so that our discussions can be substantive.

[Pacman]

Pacman-

You are hearing the story from Yuen's side. I am hearing it from the other side. Thus even IF we were BOTH there, our views of the situation would have our own interpretations. The foreigners were not brought there by Sin Kwok Lam. They weren't even on the same train heading up to the meeting. They weren't in the same train heading back from the meeting either. If you want to believe that the foreigners were brought there by Sin Kwok Lam, then go ahead and believe that. but the truth of the matter is that the guys were not.

As for the comment on Sin Kwok Lam. I SERIOUSLY suggest you have creditable reference before accusing him of being a former gangster/ loan shark.. etc.

in Hong Kong, most everyone in the movie business is attached to the triads in some way. even funnyman stephen chow sing-chi was not able to enter the US in 1997 due to his triad ties

[t_niehoff]

glad you gave some clarity to this. it is important to clarify that not all WCK is the same so that our discussions can be substantive.

WCK is WCK. The different branches are just various persons' curriculum for teaching it. It's the same in BJJ, different lineages which have slightly different flavors, slightly different focuses, etc. yet in the end, it is all just BJJ. And, those differences aren't significant in finding your game, in developing your skill, etc.

You can't have substantive discussions without substance.

[Pacman]

WCK is WCK. The different branches are just various persons' curriculum for teaching it. It's the same in BJJ, different lineages which have slightly different flavors, slightly different focuses, etc. yet in the end, it is all just BJJ. And, those differences aren't significant in finding your game, in developing your skill, etc.

You can't have substantive discussions without substance.

funny you mention substance. you have said this many times in different threads, without response to my challenges.

if all is the same, tell me what the equivalent of "arrow step" or "flapping wing palm" in YM or Kulo WC?

even if all contained the same movements (which they dont), the method or curriculum for teaching is probably the most significant. this influences how these skills are applied, which makes all the difference in the world. just look at sum dek performing SLT vs those in YM or other lineages. the resulting WCK will not be the same

[t_niehoff]

funny you mention substance. you have said this many times in different threads, without response to my challenges.


What "challenges"?



if all is the same, tell me what the equivalent of "arrow step" or "flapping wing palm" in YM or Kulo WC?


In the YM curriculum, typically the arrow step is taught in the "battle punches" drill and/or in the pole. The "flapping wing palm" is in the dummy, though slightly different. The flapping wing palm is called linked fast palms in Gu Lao 40 point (same movement).

One thing with the curriculum, some things one teacher/lineage makes explicit, another makes implicit. Another is that while there may be variations, the core remains the same.



even if all contained the same movements (which they dont), the method or curriculum for teaching is probably the most significant. this influences how these skills are applied, which makes all the difference in the world. just look at sum dek performing SLT vs those in YM or other lineages. the resulting WCK will not be the same
'
Skills -- fighting skills which are how you apply your WCK -- don't come from the WCK forms or the WCK drills. They come ONLY from fighting and trying to use our WCK method and actions. You only develop fighting skills by and through fighting. The forms and drills only teach you the movement/actions and some tactics, they do not develop the ability to fight. So, it's not your lineage or branch or even your sifu that teaches you to apply your WCK: it is your sparring partners.

It doesn't matter - in terms of developing skills - how you perform the forms. The forms don't teach you how to fight, the fight teaches you how to do your forms.

BTW, you still haven't provided your real name. Is that a problem?

[Dragonzbane76]

Skills -- fighting skills which are how you apply your WCK -- don't come from the WCK forms or the WCK drills. They come ONLY from fighting and trying to use our WCK method and actions. You only develop fighting skills by and through fighting. The forms and drills only teach you the movement/actions and some tactics, they do not develop the ability to fight. So, it's not your lineage or branch or even your sifu that teaches you to apply your WCK: it is your sparring partners.

you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. :p

[Pacman]

So, it's not your lineage or branch or even your sifu that teaches you to apply your WCK: it is your sparring partners.


if you dont learn how to apply these skills from your teacher then he isnt teaching you much anything. its like learning the alphabet but not learning how to read. if this is how you view things then i understand why a person would say WCK is pretty much the same. WCK all looks similar when you view it superficially like in a book.

WCK does not just consist of the movements but the application of those movements. thats what defines a style. look at mexican boxers vs black boxers from the US. they have the same moves, but their boxing is not the same.



It doesn't matter - in terms of developing skills - how you perform the forms. The forms don't teach you how to fight, the fight teaches you how to do your forms.

it matters because it influences the application. i googled "battle punches" because i never heard of that term. I saw this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIp-rxdwxUA

it is called "jin choi" or arrow punch, but it is not the same as what is in sum nung's WC. not only is it visually different, but i can tell that the practitioners application is totally opposite of what Sum Nung's WC stresses. His school's weighted vest training turns his training into something else, which will in turn transform the way he applies jin choi

so its not just about having a "similar movement". because you think this way, it is apparent that your WC "training" was superficial at best.


BTW, you still haven't provided your real name. Is that a problem?

my name is Altaf Mazid. why do you keep asking? are you looking for a date or about to charles manson me at my home?

[t_niehoff]

if you dont learn how to apply these skills from your teacher then he isnt teaching you much anything. its like learning the alphabet but not learning how to read. if this is how you view things then i understand why a person would say WCK is pretty much the same. WCK all looks similar when you view it superficially like in a book.


When you learn to box, everyone learns the SAME movement/actions, the same fundamentals, e.g., the jab, cross, hook, slipping, etc. But you don't "learn to box", to put these things together for yourself, and develop into a fighter, except by and through boxing (sparring in the ring). It's not through your boxing teacher but through your sparring partners that you "learn to box". It's the same with BJJ, and the same with WCK.



WCK does not just consist of the movements but the application of those movements. thats what defines a style. look at mexican boxers vs black boxers from the US. they have the same moves, but their boxing is not the same.


Yes, it is. Fighting and its methods, whether boxing, wrestling, BJJ, or WCK, is an INDIVIDUAL endeavor. When you see people box, do you see the same movements -- jabs, crosses, hooks, slipping, etc.? Yes, because you see the same fundamentals in action. Boxing is boxing. And that's why we can look at any individual in a fight and see whether or not they are using boxing -- just by looking at their movement: are they using boxing movements (boxing fundamentals)?

Similarly, WCK is WCK. Every *legitimate* branch/lineage has the same fundamentals (YJKYM, jik chung choi, tan sao, fook sao, bong sao, etc.). However, how an individual uses/puts together those fundamentals and/or how various groups emphasize those fundamentals can and will vary.



it matters because it influences the application.


Results are the only true influence. When you box (spar) you find what works best for you, and you put together your own game using the fundamentals.



i googled "battle punches" because i never heard of that term. I saw this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIp-rxdwxUA

it is called "jin choi" or arrow punch, but it is not the same as what is in sum nung's WC. not only is it visually different, but i can tell that the practitioners application is totally opposite of what Sum Nung's WC stresses. His school's weighted vest training turns his training into something else, which will in turn transform the way he applies jin choi


I didn't learn it with the weighted jacket either (which makes no sense IMO).



so its not just about having a "similar movement". because you think this way, it is apparent that your WC "training" was superficial at best.


I'm not talking about "a similar movement" -- I'm talking about the same fundamental skills.



my name is Altaf Mazid. why do you keep asking? are you looking for a date or about to charles manson me at my home?

Love your movies. ;)

[k gledhill]

that you tube clip is some preliminary pole training exercises....almost :D the feet should be pointing forwards not out, but it is quite difficult to do this , the right extending/striking arm is the support off body striking/holding the pole.
The left is striking across the body/holding the pole butt end. Striking with body momentum with the pole.
Utilizing both arms pole striking after this drill , ensures each arm 'max's' out when done together while striking with the pole.
When you place the butt end near your armpit and then reach out to hold the pole with the right hand its the same idea, measuring the extension of each is equal, or you lose one arms maximum potential force.
Add the two arms each maxing out, plus the mass of the pole behind the tip, and body weight in motion with leg energy propelling the tip into you and you have a bad day :D

We use the same ideas fighting, go figure.

good workout to use a heavy pole. You learn to incorporate the hips into all actions, accuracy, ballistic displacement of opponents pole, keeping elbows in and low ....

the weighted jacket is just for the legs...we dont use them.

The arm actions in the clip arent exactly as we do them .

Here is how we do it :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ho0TlAMGJq4&feature=related

there are basic pole actions in SLT. some try to make these 'applications' because they dont know 'da pol.

[Pacman]

so essentially you are saying that the teacher just teaches you the forms/movements and it is up to you to figure out the application.

so anyone that learns the forms can be a teacher.

in that case no wonder there are so many weekend masters!

yes you learn through experience, but your teacher helps shape you through that experience. you notice that boxing coaches dont teach them jab cross etc and then tell them to learn on their own.


When you learn to box, everyone learns the SAME movement/actions, the same fundamentals, e.g., the jab, cross, hook, slipping, etc. But you don't "learn to box", to put these things together for yourself, and develop into a fighter, except by and through boxing (sparring in the ring). It's not through your boxing teacher but through your sparring partners that you "learn to box". It's the same with BJJ, and the same with WCK.



Yes, it is. Fighting and its methods, whether boxing, wrestling, BJJ, or WCK, is an INDIVIDUAL endeavor. When you see people box, do you see the same movements -- jabs, crosses, hooks, slipping, etc.? Yes, because you see the same fundamentals in action. Boxing is boxing. And that's why we can look at any individual in a fight and see whether or not they are using boxing -- just by looking at their movement: are they using boxing movements (boxing fundamentals)?

Similarly, WCK is WCK. Every *legitimate* branch/lineage has the same fundamentals (YJKYM, jik chung choi, tan sao, fook sao, bong sao, etc.). However, how an individual uses/puts together those fundamentals and/or how various groups emphasize those fundamentals can and will vary.



Results are the only true influence. When you box (spar) you find what works best for you, and you put together your own game using the fundamentals.



I didn't learn it with the weighted jacket either (which makes no sense IMO).



I'm not talking about "a similar movement" -- I'm talking about the same fundamental skills.



Love your movies. ;)

[t_niehoff]

so essentially you are saying that the teacher just teaches you the forms/movements and it is up to you to figure out the application.

so anyone that learns the forms can be a teacher.

in that case no wonder there are so many weekend masters!

yes you learn through experience, but your teacher helps shape you through that experience. you notice that boxing coaches dont teach them jab cross etc and then tell them to learn on their own.

The forms, the drills, etc. are not application. Application is fighting: that is when you are applying your WCK. Follow me so far?

Your instructor, for example, can teach you the bong sao/lop da movement, he can show you a drill to practice it (lop sao or rolling bong, for instance) but that doesn't teach you the application, i.e., when, where, even how to use it in fighting. This is why every WCK practitioner can show you the movement, can do it in drills, but only very, very, very few can pull it off consistently in fighting. To develop the skill of being able to use it in fighting YOU have to work it out for yourself -- and that means practicing fighting (sparring) and trying to work it out.

Your teacher doesn't shape you. The WORK you put in -- the sparring -- is what shapes you. The best a coach can do is, assuming he's done that work himself, is help you work some things out, to give you pointers, etc.

There are no "masters" in WCK. There are only a lot of low level people who call themselves "master." Wouldn't you expect a "master" in a stand-up art (like WCK) should be able to consistently beat low to mid level fighters in other stand-up arts? Well, where are these "masters"?

[LoneTiger108]

There are no "masters" in WCK. There are only a lot of low level people who call themselves "master." Wouldn't you expect a "master" in a stand-up art (like WCK) should be able to consistently beat low to mid level fighters in other stand-up arts? Well, where are these "masters"?

This all depends on what you consider a 'Master' to be. :rolleyes:

Now if you think a Master has to 'compete' to prove himself to his students then you have the totally wrong idea of what a Master is imho.

[t_niehoff]

This all depends on what you consider a 'Master' to be. :rolleyes:

Now if you think a Master has to 'compete' to prove himself to his students then you have the totally wrong idea of what a Master is imho.

I guess it depends on your definition of "master". Anyone can call themselves "master" or use whatever definition they want, e.g., head of an organization, head of a cult, head of a school, etc.

For me and I think most people, the term"master" implies that one is very highly skilled, and in terms of a fighting art, that means being, or having been, a very highly skilled fighter. I don't think anyone would expect a "master" to have low levels of fighting skill, and not be able to handle themselves *using their method* (to do what they teach) readily. Being a "master" in a fighting art isn't about what you *know* (your "intellectual knowledge") but about what you can do (perform).

It's not that I think a person needs to "compete" to develop high levels of fighting skill or prove they have skill -- there are BJJ BBs, for instance, that really don't compete. But they can and do prove their skills all the time by sparring, including against people who do compete. After all, you can't see real skill -- fighting skill -- except in fighting.

So if you think so-and-so is a "master", then my question is "how do you know?" Have you seen them fight? Have you seen them successfully use what they teach against skilled fighters?

A lead pipe truth is that if a person is not already doing it, he won't be able to do it. Is your "master" already fighting and beating skilled people? Yes or no. If not, he won't be able to. Is he already fighting and beating low level fighters (let's say white belt MMA fighters)? Yes or no. If not, then he won't be able to.

[chusauli]

Mastery is simple - it is when you are able to perform with unconscious competence.

Many times a "master" is the guy who sets up the curriculum for your system - he knows all the details of your curriculum from A - Z. Or he is the "figurehead of the school".

[Pacman]

The forms, the drills, etc. are not application. Application is fighting: that is when you are applying your WCK. Follow me so far?

yes of course. as usual you are repeating what others just said and acting like its your original, differing opinion.


Your instructor, for example, can teach you the bong sao/lop da movement, he can show you a drill to practice it (lop sao or rolling bong, for instance) but that doesn't teach you the application, i.e., when, where, even how to use it in fighting.

yes these drills dont teach you the application, but it is something that someone can show you.


Your teacher doesn't shape you. The WORK you put in -- the sparring -- is what shapes you. The best a coach can do is, assuming he's done that work himself, is help you work some things out, to give you pointers, etc.

yes i agree, that is the process. giving you pointers, etc. is how he shapes you and gives you insight on when, where, how to use things. the quality of his advice is at the heart of how good he is at teaching.

like i said, if all a teacher does is show you the forms and drills, then anyone can be a teacher.

[chusauli]

Confucius said, "Among three men who are walking together, I am certain to find my teacher, a good one in order to emulate him, and a bad one in order [recognize in him what in myself I must] correct."

[Wayfaring]

Thomas Bayes, a famous British mathmetician, said

"Three mathematicians walk into a bar. You'd think the second one would have ducked."

:D:D:D

[LoneTiger108]

Mastery is simple - it is when you are able to perform with unconscious competence.

I have to totally disagree with you on this one, because if this WAS the case, anyone who 'feels' like they have learnt all the forms and can perform them by heart is a Master? I don't think so :rolleyes:

That makes me a Master too :eek:

I believe a Master to be, not only a figurehead of a school, but someone who actually takes responsibility for his students to the point that he becomes a 'father figure' too, a mentor. From my little knowledge of past Chinese Martial Arts history, students were housed and fed by their Masters and even put to work in a trade that was suitable. This also is very similar to my own experience.

A Master also implies that there are servants, and I can totally relate to that as that was how I felt sometimes while serving under mine ;)

[t_niehoff]

I believe a Master to be, not only a figurehead of a school, but someone who actually takes responsibility for his students to the point that he becomes a 'father figure' too, a mentor. From my little knowledge of past Chinese Martial Arts history, students were housed and fed by their Masters and even put to work in a trade that was suitable. This also is very similar to my own experience.

A Master also implies that there are servants, and I can totally relate to that as that was how I felt sometimes while serving under mine ;)

This is precisely what a "Master" TODAY should not be.

But this echoes back to another thread where I talked about how Benny only sold what people wanted (after all, you can't sell it if no one wants it) -- and how many people want "the fantasy." Well, some people want a "father figure", they are weak-minded and want to belong to a group ("a family"), they want to be told what to do like a servant, etc.

[t_niehoff]

yes of course. as usual you are repeating what others just said and acting like its your original, differing opinion.


I never claimed my views were original (is there anything new under the sun?), and I have repeatedly said that I arrived at my views through my own experience.



yes these drills dont teach you the application, but it is something that someone can show you.


The only "application" that someone can show you is one that they are doing. And I don't think many WCK are doing much, if any, application (fighting). Certainly not against competent fighters. So a lot of the "application" they are teaching is either theoretical (this is how I think it should be done) or stuff that they have only tried against low level people (like their students). Do you think that you can become a good golfer listening to poor golfers tell you how to do it?



yes i agree, that is the process. giving you pointers, etc. is how he shapes you and gives you insight on when, where, how to use things. the quality of his advice is at the heart of how good he is at teaching.


The quality of his advice (on applying WCK) is directly related to his own fighting skill level.



like i said, if all a teacher does is show you the forms and drills, then anyone can be a teacher.

Anyone can teach *what they know*. If you know the forms and drills, then you can teach them. Problems ensue, however, when we try to teach what we don't know. And we don't know it if we can't do it.

Ask your instructor to bring in a low- to mid-level MMA fighter for privates, and ask your instructor to spar with him and show that he can successfully do the things he teaches to do. You'll see that he will be beaten like a red-headed step-child and that he won't be able to make his WCK work. How do I know? Because unless he is already doing it, he won't be able to. But this guy is telling YOU how to do it.

The more you listen to someone who can't do it, the more you are training to fail.

[LoneTiger108]

This is precisely what a "Master" TODAY should not be.

But this echoes back to another thread where I talked about how Benny only sold what people wanted (after all, you can't sell it if no one wants it) -- and how many people want "the fantasy." Well, some people want a "father figure", they are weak-minded and want to belong to a group ("a family"), they want to be told what to do like a servant, etc.

So a "Master" is someone who teaches what students 'want' to learn? :rolleyes: That's just someone teaching scraps for money to people who are foolish enough to part with their cash imho. And who is 'Benny' anyway?

And as for the father figure/weak-minded students thing, do you really think anyone who has been through an experience like that actually 'chose' to? There are many fatherless people in the world and you've just offended every single one of them. :eek:

[t_niehoff]

So a "Master" is someone who teaches what students 'want' to learn? :rolleyes: That's just someone teaching scraps for money to people who are foolish enough to part with their cash imho. And who is 'Benny' anyway?


Where did I say that? You are being dishonest.

I said,

"For me and I think most people, the term"master" implies that one is very highly skilled, and in terms of a fighting art, that means being, or having been, a very highly skilled fighter. I don't think anyone would expect a "master" to have low levels of fighting skill, and not be able to handle themselves *using their method* (to do what they teach) readily. Being a "master" in a fighting art isn't about what you *know* (your "intellectual knowledge") but about what you can do (perform)."



And as for the father figure/weak-minded students thing, do you really think anyone who has been through an experience like that actually 'chose' to? There are many fatherless people in the world and you've just offended every single one of them. :eek:

No, I haven't. There are lots of fatherless people in the world who aren't weak-minded (and don't feel the need to join some "family"). And most people who seek a father figure aren't doing so because they were fatherless. In any event, do you also make your golf pro a father figure? If you take ice skating lessons, does your instructor also become a surrogate father for you? If not, then why your martial arts instructor?

[CFT]

Terence, there is a different cultural and historical context as I'm sure you know. Not that it means we need to continue that cultural practice.

I'm pretty sure that for a majority (me included) they have/had a "transactional" relationship with our teachers. But over time the relationship could change to a much closer one. I think the term "master" is too loaded with the master/servant theme.

I wouldn't seek a father figure in my teacher. I don't need one. But I would look for mutual respect in our relationship. I've heard of a lot of exploitative relationships btwn teacher and student.

[t_niehoff]

Terence, there is a different cultural and historical context as I'm sure you know. Not that it means we need to continue that cultural practice.


Yes, I know -- and that's one of the things that needs to go. That sort of relationship isn't healthy and only holds people and arts back.



I'm pretty sure that for a majority (me included) they have/had a "transactional" relationship with our teachers. But over time the relationship could change to a much closer one. I think the term "master" is too loaded with the master/servant theme.


This is true in all aspects of our lives. For example, many of us only have a "transactional relationship" with our co-workers but over time can develop a closer relationship.



I wouldn't seek a father figure in my teacher. I don't need one. But I would look for mutual respect in our relationship. I've heard of a lot of exploitative relationships btwn teacher and student.

Quite frankly, IME most people get what they want. There are many people who want to be exploited (why I said it is an unhealthy relationship).

As I see it, a WCK instructor should be like a personal trainer or a golf or tennis pro. They are there to service you, not you there to service them.

[chusauli]

I have to totally disagree with you on this one, because if this WAS the case, anyone who 'feels' like they have learnt all the forms and can perform them by heart is a Master? I don't think so :rolleyes:

That makes me a Master too :eek:

I think you don't understand the term "Unconscious Competence" - it implies mastery in the moment - to be able to do what you know and apply it according to circumstances. I said nothing about forms and performance, that is from you. So your post shows you are once again not comprehending what I am saying. I certainly did not have the shallow definition you are referring to.

Spencer, are you the "master" that you refer to, or what I am referring to?


I believe a Master to be, not only a figurehead of a school, but someone who actually takes responsibility for his students to the point that he becomes a 'father figure' too, a mentor. From my little knowledge of past Chinese Martial Arts history, students were housed and fed by their Masters and even put to work in a trade that was suitable. This also is very similar to my own experience.

A Master also implies that there are servants, and I can totally relate to that as that was how I felt sometimes while serving under mine ;)

Master does not imply servants and master, but skilled craftsman (remember the term "Sifu" is about a "Craftsman", not an owner of slaves) teaching developing craftsmen as in the old guilds of China and Europe, but the father figure and mentor can also apply. As figurehead of the system, you should know all aspects of the system in application, and have taught you curriculum to other masters within your system. But too much of TCMA has a problem of corruption, abuse, putting up on pedestals, blind loyalty, and just plain stupid, rigid understanding and subservience.

[LoneTiger108]

I think you don't understand the term "Unconscious Competence" - it implies mastery in the moment - to be able to do what you know and apply it according to circumstances. I said nothing about forms and performance, that is from you. So your post shows you are once again not comprehending what I am saying. I certainly did not have the shallow definition you are referring to.

Spencer, are you the "master" that you refer to, or what I am referring to?

First of all, I don't think the term 'learning by heart' is shallow, but I do see much clearer with your extended explanation so thanks for sharing more. Unconcious Competence to me is the same as learning something by heart, as this also implies that you can operate at will, witout thinking and in any circumstance. Mastery in the moment as you put it, which I think sums it up much better.

So in answer, I am the master both of us are talking about as I too think you misunderstood me (again!) as I wasn't just referring to simply being comfirtable with images of forms.


Master does not imply servants and master, but skilled craftsman (remember the term "Sifu" is about a "Craftsman", not an owner of slaves) teaching developing craftsmen as in the old guilds of China and Europe, but the father figure and mentor can also apply. As figurehead of the system, you should know all aspects of the system in application, and have taught you curriculum to other masters within your system. But too much of TCMA has a problem of corruption, abuse, putting up on pedestals, blind loyalty, and just plain stupid, rigid understanding and subservience.

The term Sifu, fme, should never be considered the same as Master, or Sijo. The Sijo is the figurehead, the Sifu actually teaches the physical skill (like a coach) and yes, can become a father figure, but it's the Sijo that holds all the keys and pays all the cooks! ;) He IS the man! :D A Founder, if you like.

I am a Sifu, but not a Sijo. I say this even though I have created my own brand with The Yum Yeurng Academy, and so the Sijo title could be used. Bottom line, I didn't 'invent' anything to be a Sijo, I just inherited a curriculum with my Sihing and coach it as best I can.

You can't just mess with words that are already written.

[LoneTiger108]

Where did I say that? You are being dishonest.

I said,

"For me and I think most people, the term"master" implies that one is very highly skilled, and in terms of a fighting art, that means being, or having been, a very highly skilled fighter. I don't think anyone would expect a "master" to have low levels of fighting skill, and not be able to handle themselves *using their method* (to do what they teach) readily. Being a "master" in a fighting art isn't about what you *know* (your "intellectual knowledge") but about what you can do (perform)."

I wasn't referring to that T, I was referring to you talking of a 'Benny' who taught what people wanted to learn. I just presumed that this 'Benny' cat was your idea of a Master?! Sorry if you misunderstood, but understand one thing...

I am definitely NOT dishonest. :eek:

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1041040]In any event, do you also make your golf pro a father figure? If you take ice skating lessons, does your instructor also become a surrogate father for you? If not, then why your martial arts instructor?

In response to that, if I was to respect their guidance in the court/rink/gwoon AND within my life too, then yes I would see my 'Pro' as a father figure. Like a mentor really, keeping me on the right path especially in my youth.

I think in Martial Arts it is clearer as so many things in kung fu are taught as 'life-lessons' too. Especially in Wing Chun! ;)

[Pacman]

I never claimed my views were original (is there
anything new under the sun?)

you said "<blah blah blah>...follow so far?". why would you say "follow so far?" if i had just told you the same thing. you sound like you are saying something new. hard for asberger sufferers, i know.

again you sound like a total moron. you used to just blab on about how much another person knows, but now you are predicting the future--telling me what will happen if my teacher fights an MMA fighter?

ive seen my teacher beat lots of people, using what he knows, effortlessly over the years. from his younger days to his older. people more skilled than a low level MMA guy--people with your beloved competitive titles.

have you seen any of your teachers do this in front of your eyes? have you ever put on the gloves and sparred your teachers? i have.