Maui thai plum [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Frost

08-22-2010, 04:59 AM

Trying to bring some more technical topics up.

I have found the major problem is keeping your waist forward and back straight to stop control of your body. With the hands I tend to use a jum sao/lower punch to stop knees etc or if they don't have a good hold of my head. Just punching can work but I find I doesn't control the body and the knees can get you. I tend to be on the outside when this happens as a good maui thai guy will keep the elbows really tight so normally punching up the centre is near impossible.
Well any thoughts?

Take the space away and ensure you have balance and position before anything else.

If you are having trouble keeping your waist forward you have to stagger your stance and do what ever it takes to get your hips under your head, even if it means lowering your base and almost shoting a double to get the hips under the head if you are bent over.

one leg forward ideally between his legs with your hips and neck inline with the leg (means he is pulling into your leg so you have better balance). Bulled neck is also vital you have to decrease the length of the lever or you are in trouble. Just punching only works if you can get the above position, otherwise his knees will do serious damage. ALso a good thai clinch guy will be moving you around, he will only throw knees when you are off balance. Best ways to kill the knees if you cant get your hips under your head and your leg between his is to jam his hips hard and run him down, of course he will turn you off if he is good but hey you are in trouble either way.

I dont like just blocking the knees because a good thai guy will lift over the arms and punch the knee in with the hip, not just bring it up at an angle.

escape wise re-pumme for insdie controll, go for the underhook on the side your legs foward, body lock if he is too close or if its really tight reaching over his arms prying his chin up and away levering against his jaw with your hand on his trap t and then move him backwards as your over hand pushes his extended arms over your head.

t_niehoff

08-22-2010, 05:39 AM

Trying to bring some more technical topics up.

I have found the major problem is keeping your waist forward and back straight to stop control of your body. With the hands I tend to use a jum sao/lower punch to stop knees etc or if they don't have a good hold of my head. Just punching can work but I find I doesn't control the body and the knees can get you. I tend to be on the outside when this happens as a good maui thai guy will keep the elbows really tight so normally punching up the centre is near impossible.
Well any thoughts?

I hate technical answers because they are almost always theoretical (I think this will work). There is no worse way to learn. And typically involve discussions about why my fantasy is better than your fantasy.

Theoretical answers are always bad, and they often suggest that there is a simple answer or one answer that will deal with a problem. And that's never the case. In this instance, you can't just learn a technique to deal with the MT clinch, you need to develop a whole game to deal with it. Because anything you do will cause him to change.

The only way to work it out and develop your own game is by training with decent MT fighters and experiencing it firsthand. You need to know what they will be doing when they get you in the plumb -- the problems you will REALLY face -- before you can even start trying to work out answers. It takes LOADS of hard work to be able to deal with a decent plumb. Good MT gyms devote TONS of training/sparring time to the clinch. If you don't work as hard, you won't have a chance.

If a good MT fighter locks in a plumb, he will be jerking you around like a rag doll, pulling you into strikes, even tossing you to the ground. You won't be punching him (he wants you to waste your time trying that, btw) or use a jum sao to stop his knees as you won't have a base to punch or "block" from.

You will find that (1) you will need to "hold" onto him for your balance AS (2) you fight to break his hold/control (if you can't break it, you will be lost), and then either (3) establish your own control or break away (which has its own problems).

HumbleWCGuy

08-22-2010, 07:04 AM

lkfmdc

08-22-2010, 09:29 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCK_0Tk1XbE&feature=search

Frost

08-22-2010, 10:05 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCK_0Tk1XbE&feature=search

nice you showed the issue of the bringing of the knee over the blocking arm really nicely, and getting the hips under the head too.

The thired and fouth escapess (the pushing the head and lifting the arm, and the pummeling for underhook) were two i was talking about

Nice to know my coaches know what they are doing :)

Jorge

08-22-2010, 10:11 AM

I was going to say to learn to snake the clinch, but Ross put up a good vid on what you want to do!

Our snake is a tad bit different, but pretty much the same. You can also try to pull your hips in to the opponent and with one arm you wrap around your opponents waist pulling in to you and your other hand you want to stiff arm their face. Which will force their head to go back. This move should fold or hyper extend their back. Its simple and works. Hope you can understand what I wrote down. I'll try to find a clip or a pic.

Bless,

Buby

Jorge

08-22-2010, 10:20 AM

What Frost wrote hear is dead on! Pay extra attention to "one leg forward ideally between his legs with your hips and neck inline with the leg (means he is pulling into your leg so you have better balance). Bulled neck is also vital you have to decrease the length of the lever or you are in trouble." -otherwise the clip Ross posted and the lil info I put wont work. My Kru tells us to stand up or rise for the occasion, when in a clinch.LOLOL

Nice breakdown Frost!

Buby

HumbleWCGuy

08-22-2010, 03:33 PM

You can't decrease the length of your neck. You are straightening your neck to its strongest point and using your shoulders to reduced the amount of exposed neck.

Also, trying to play the "my foot between his" game is limited. You want to lead in with a side to get your posture back if you lost it, but it isn't really "the position." Just getting your feet under you back into a relatively neutral stance (as shown by Dave) and moving to a "tripod," using your opponent as a balance point, like T. is saying is probably generally more accurate.

Finally, the kickboxing clinch basically cuts out all the standard inside boxing. I spend time developing some of those skills, but boxing teaches a lot of bad habits for clinching. Bending over and leaning on someone like a boxer will get you killed.

bennyvt

08-22-2010, 04:27 PM

OK.
Thanks frost good ideas, the guy I do shoot with says the same thing. more from a wrestling point of veiw though.
Terrence, thanks man. No theory. This is what I do against people when caught in a maui thai clinch. Yes the whole don't get in it is great. But not practicle. Eventually you will end up there. What Vt can you use to get out.
The jum sao is controlling the person and trying to break the hold. I am not just waiting for the knee as yes he will be throwing me while I am waiting for the knee.
The waist and other weaknesses were to give people things to think about. I am not saying that I can't keep my waist forward.

Frost

08-23-2010, 12:10 AM

bennyvt

08-23-2010, 01:35 AM

Frost

08-23-2010, 04:48 AM

Its alot like a tie position (head control) in wrestling but with both hands. I tend to do the same thing as the head control is the one you want to get rid of. I am doing the jum sao/strike as soon as I realise he has my head. Not waiting for a strike or knee. I realise there are lots of ways to stop getting into that spot but one of the guys I do stuff with just come back from thai land and he keeps on taking my punches and going for the plum. If I let him really get me he does throw me like a rag doll.

Try to avoid the plum, use lateral movement with straight strikes if possible and try to keep your arms in tight so he cant get inside control, alternatively if its MMA or shoot fighting you are doing and not just stand up change levels as he enters an simply hit a body lock or attack the legs

I know what you mean though one of our pros also fights Thai and I outweigh him by 20kg but my feet still leave the ground when he locks the position in

t_niehoff

08-23-2010, 04:55 AM

Terrence, thanks man. No theory. This is what I do against people when caught in a maui thai clinch. Yes the whole don't get in it is great. But not practicle. Eventually you will end up there. What Vt can you use to get out.

There is a WORLD of difference between being caught in the plumb of someone who is skilled at it and being in the grip of someone who isn't very skilled. The latter is a waste of time, and actually is counter-productive.

That you were talking about punching while in the plumb tells me you are not dealing with anyone who is any good -- a good plumb will take that away. You'd see that straight away. Nor will you be able to use jum sao to block knees, a knee will smash through them. So if you are punching and using jum sao, you are training with people who have a terrible plumb. And that leads to training to fail since you start developing answers/techniques that work not because your answers/techniques are good/sound but because the questions/what he's doing is so bad.

BTW, the very first thing ANYONE must do when caught in a plumb is shrug their shoulders (which helps you keep your posture).

And, I take exception to those who talk about putting a leg forward when caught in the plumb. His power is side-to-side, and if you put a leg forward, he will more easily be able to twist you. You want to have a square/parallel stance with your knees/toes pointed slightly out as this makes you much more stable.

The jum sao is controlling the person and trying to break the hold. I am not just waiting for the knee as yes he will be throwing me while I am waiting for the knee.
The waist and other weaknesses were to give people things to think about. I am not saying that I can't keep my waist forward.

You are not going to break the plumb hold with a jum sao.

Frost

08-23-2010, 05:12 AM

And, I take exception to those who talk about putting a leg forward when caught in the plumb. His power is side-to-side, and if you put a leg forward, he will more easily be able to twist you. You want to have a square/parallel stance with your knees/toes pointed slightly out as this makes you much more stable.
.

YOu can take exception all you want its a forum :D

Interesting, I find he is more able to twist me if I am off balance, and with a stable stance and my leg close to his I am also able to block the knee more with the leg and take away his ability to of balance me.

If you get your head under your hips he cant pull your head down because he is pulling into your lead leg, even with a strong square stance you still run the risk of a snap down or being pulled over your base, and one slightly off balance the ragging can begin

is it the only way to defend no but this is how my coach has taught this defence to us, he likes it because in an MMA context it allows you to gut the under hook and attack the body

sanjuro_ronin

08-23-2010, 05:43 AM

Head butting the knee works for me.

Dragonzbane76

08-23-2010, 05:54 AM

cover the distance. if he's got you in the center plum... start by pushing him back into a back peddeling position. He's got to eventually hit something. when you have him against cage/ropes/wall clinch up full, greco roman, body to body. That's what I would do, but everyones got different ways of doing things.

t_niehoff

08-23-2010, 06:14 AM

YOu can take exception all you want its a forum :D

Interesting, I find he is more able to twist me if I am off balance, and with a stable stance and my leg close to his I am also able to block the knee more with the leg and take away his ability to of balance me.

IME, if he has a good plumb, we won't let you get your leg near his leg because he is going to be MOVING not stationary, and using that movement to jerk you around. If you do put a leg near his leg, he'll just switch leads AS he jerks you around.

The other problem I have with putting a leg forward is that it will become a target (for his knees).

If you get your head under your hips

I think you mean hips under your head.

he cant pull your head down because he is pulling into your lead leg, even with a strong square stance you still run the risk of a snap down or being pulled over your base, and one slightly off balance the ragging can begin

You can maintain a good posture by hunching your shoulders and "holding" onto him for balance (and to post against a downward pull).

Here's a clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EEx7rnsiHw&feature=search

BTW, do you see how similar much of this is to WCK actions? The biu jee sao (not a finger strike but a forearm strike as an emergency technique)? Using the turning to break out of the clinch?

is it the only way to defend no but this is how my coach has taught this defence to us, he likes it because in an MMA context it allows you to gut the under hook and attack the body

Sorry, but I don't see how you get an underhook out of the plumb.

m1k3

08-23-2010, 07:04 AM

Nice clip T. That's my coach! Great place to train.

sanjuro_ronin

08-23-2010, 07:35 AM

In a nutshell, you want to counter BEFORE it gets sunk, best case scenario or you want to neutralize it be getting control, breaking the plum and countering it.
HOW you go about doing that is what you workout in training.

HumbleWCGuy

08-23-2010, 08:25 AM

Also:
1. Start lifting weights if you don't
2. Go to a Muay Thai Gym and learn more about the positions. There is more to it than just the full plum.
3. Learn several escapes from the full plum that don't involve powering your way back up. If you could power up in the first place, you typically don't end up there.

SAAMAG

08-24-2010, 11:14 AM

Trying to bring some more technical topics up.

I have found the major problem is keeping your waist forward and back straight to stop control of your body. With the hands I tend to use a jum sao/lower punch to stop knees etc or if they don't have a good hold of my head. Just punching can work but I find I doesn't control the body and the knees can get you. I tend to be on the outside when this happens as a good maui thai guy will keep the elbows really tight so normally punching up the centre is near impossible.
Well any thoughts?

Disregarding everything that's been said already...there are some fundamental things you can do in a muay thai fight to counter the double inside position, the first couple things you want to do is to turtle your neck and drive your hips forward, remembering that knees are only a danger when there's space.

Some options to pummel for your own double inside position:

simply swim inside
inside elbow press to create space, then swim inside
outside neck tie jerk to swim inside

Some counters:

squeeze their head with your own outside grip and grind your head into theirs using your crown
neck / pivot throw
shoulder shuck to punch, elbow, or knee
punching out
pressing out to knee
throwing off the attempted knee
sweeping off the attempted knee

Some temporary defenses:

double overhand grip to block knees to your head
double elbows below to block knees to the body
using knees/shins to block knees

In muay thai, the clinch is a lot like dancing. The neck whipping is meant to take you off balance and disorient you while they're kneeing you. To combat this, you try and maintain space and the neck turtling (meaning your hips in and neck up) "cooperate" with them by going with the motion...it's most effective when you're trying to stop them...as opposed to going with them.

Also remember that in a muay thai fight, it's not common for one to be completely dominated by it, at least not in thailand. That generally only happens when there's a huge disparity in skill levels. This is because the postures and counters are second nature and come immediately. Once you get used to working in a standing clinch, the muay thai "plum" isn't so formidable any longer. It's just something else you have to work with and against. I don't think for example "OMG i'm in the plum!!" I look at all clinching as that it's clinching...the fundamental defenses are the same.

Watch in this vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ui5lxGZXMQ

Lot's of clinching in this fight, with a lot of what I mentioned in standard clinching defenses and techniques...but how man times did you see a full clinch with whipping all around and the other guy was "helpless"? None. Notice at around the 5 min marker that there was an attempt at it but the opponent did the shoulder shuck and stopped it. The whole "plum" popularity of it being something special is just here in America.

sanjuro_ronin

08-24-2010, 11:23 AM

Nice clip and you are correct, the west tends to make a big deal out of the "plum" even though, as the video shows, most of the clinches were over and unders, headlocks, clinches but very few, I think I saw maybe one, "textbook" plum.

SAAMAG

08-24-2010, 12:38 PM

Now to be fair...wing chun has it's own answers to this as well. In fact...during clinch sparring the other day, the guy asked me "are you using your wing chun **** on me?!" while he was trying to get grips and couldn't.

It's all about feeling, and your comfort with the standing clinch.

Liddel

08-24-2010, 05:35 PM

A nice good action to the groin even if not creating a total release will give you enough space and timing to launch punches and or other actions to help you break free. After all MT practices do not account for this being sport orientated.

Even glancing shots have surprised guys out of it IME.

Several of my sparring partners are MT fighters with lots of experience and it is possible to punch your way out, so i guess T is training with world class guys. :o

Grabbing hair with one hand and turning the chin with the other is another good one but beware the knees... (this depends on relative size to your attacker more so than other actions i use, described by others here)

Actions are not as important as timing IMO, the person with the ability to adapt and change quicker will overcome more so in this situation than most.... so adapt what you have with good timing to gain back control.

Sometimes even the best guys cant get out of it...anyone remember Rich Ace franklin getting his nose rearranged a while back, it was bent as bad as elton john :eek:

http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/pow-mixed-martial-arts/assets_c/2010/06/richfranklin-thumb-572xauto-158758.jpg

DREW

HumbleWCGuy

08-24-2010, 07:32 PM

After all MT practices do not account for this being sport orientated.

Here goes with 2 days of being trashed talked and called a theoretical non-fighter who never trains against resisting opponents because you claimed that Thai boxers don't protect their groin. LOL

Frost

08-25-2010, 04:44 AM

Here goes with 2 days of being trashed talked and called a theoretical non-fighter who never trains against resisting opponents because you claimed that Thai boxers don't protect their groin. LOL

Nope although I would point out he asked in a sparring context where groin shots aren't normally allowed and received answers accordingly.

And kneeing/kicking the groin is hard without first establishing a sound base because for the simple biological reason it’s hard to lift your leg when you are bent forward and being ragged around and I wouldn't like to reach my hand for him groin as he knees me in the head but that’s just me.

Other than that no trash talking or calling anyone names. At least from me :)

t_niehoff

08-25-2010, 06:04 AM

A nice good action to the groin even if not creating a total release will give you enough space and timing to launch punches and or other actions to help you break free. After all MT practices do not account for this being sport orientated.

Ah, yes, the old poke-em-in-the-eye-hit-em-in-the-groin stand-by answer for everything. Sorry, but that won't work.

And, being "sport-oriented" doesn't mean you don't take foul tactics into account. It just means that you have developed skills that actually work.

Even glancing shots have surprised guys out of it IME.

Several of my sparring partners are MT fighters with lots of experience and it is possible to punch your way out, so i guess T is training with world class guys. :o

I don't know who you are training with, but it obviously isn't anyone with decent MT clinch skills. If someone with decent plumb skills catches you, you won't be attacking their groin -- you won't have the space, leverage, etc. And, they'll be jerking you around while slamming in knees. Trying dumb sh1t like attacking their groin is only going to make it easier for them.

Grabbing hair with one hand and turning the chin with the other is another good one but beware the knees... (this depends on relative size to your attacker more so than other actions i use, described by others here)

And if they have they plumb, you won't have ANY leverage to "turn their chin" or do anything to them.

This is as bad as the guys who believe foul tactics will save them on the ground against decently skilled ground fighters.

It's incredible to me that in this day, people continue to believe this nonsense.

Actions are not as important as timing IMO, the person with the ability to adapt and change quicker will overcome more so in this situation than most.... so adapt what you have with good timing to gain back control.
'

The ACTIONS you do are CRITICALLY important, since impotent actions won't achieve anything regardless of the "timing". TIMING is doing an appropriate action at the right time.

Sometimes even the best guys cant get out of it...anyone remember Rich Ace franklin getting his nose rearranged a while back, it was bent as bad as elton john :eek:

It takes skill to beat skill. When someone, like Franklin, meets someone, like Silva, who is on a different, much higher level of skill, things are going to go badly.

And that's why in our training we should work toward developing higher levels of actual skill rather than training to fail by relying on silly foul-tactic tricks.

SAAMAG

08-25-2010, 08:17 AM

On that note, has anyone come up with anything they use on a consistent basis besides what I wrote? Perhaps something wing chun based?

Think about it....hips forward and head up...does that sound familiar to you in your wc training?

Using a wedge to come forward, that's also used as a tactic in Muay Thai and shouldn't be alien to wc folk either (because in one of the tactics you're basically using a pak/gam to the inside elbow while you biu over your hand into the created space into man geng sao).

The knee to block knees shouldn't be foreign, especially to TWC guys.

But just food for thought here, but the tactics that work in muay Thai...consistently...can also be found partially in wing chun.

couch

08-25-2010, 04:57 PM

Great contributions, T.

Liddel

08-25-2010, 07:04 PM

This is as bad as the guys who believe foul tactics will save them on the ground against decently skilled ground fighters.

Many people here posted what i to would have posted, so i added to the conversation rather than repeating.

First off - im guessing you've never sparred krav guys. Low groin shots are common and effective IME.

Secondably - i dont "beleive" as if it was "faith based". Its my experience. Which is why i did post.... you must be training with world class guys :o im in no way saying this works for everyone or all of the time. But it can and has work for me. and its relavant to the conversation, hater !

For someone that preaches 'train how you fight, fight how you train' mentality you sure dont let that spread across the board. Your my way or the highway mentality is amusing :cool:

Im guessing you love to turtle up on the ground to because you train with no knees to the head whilst on the ground....

And if they have they plumb, you won't have ANY leverage to "turn their chin" or do anything to them.

Just because what i posted is a tech you dont train for or against, doesnt mean you can throw your toys. If you were familiar with it you would know where and how to gain such leverage.

It's incredible to me that in this day, people continue to believe this nonsense.

If i've made it work, remind me why i wouldnt believe in it ? :p

And that's why in our training we should work toward developing higher levels of actual skill rather than training to fail by relying on silly foul-tactic tricks.

Whos relying on it, I offered ONE idea seperate to that of others that had already posted the obvious.
You get your panties twisted too much, back away from posting for a week.

And while your last quuote here is true, IME its equaly important to realise there are "take on" and "take out" mentalities.

The fact you post

silly foul-tactic tricks

tells me you havent trained Larry Jordons dirty dozen LOL

bennyvt

08-25-2010, 09:58 PM

If I can reach I always try to punch first. As this is the same action as the jum on the arm and they tend to let go after one or two punches to the face. I can't on the guy I was talking about as he is 6 foot something and Im about 5'3 so his head is too far away to hit. Hence the jum sao to break the hold. I have also tried the lan sao but being small it doesn't work very well. I can but the head control needs to be loose or you just end up pushing your own head down.

SAAMAG

08-25-2010, 10:34 PM

If you're using your arms to put down pressure on top of the other guys arms
, you're typically doing that to eliminate the other guy from kneeing your head (because in order to knee you he would have to open his arms up to bring your head down). However that doesn't provide a solution to body knees. So like many things it's a temporary position.

IMO you're too small to be allowing folks to get you into a full inside clinch. Your best strategy is to avoid clinching. Still train it of course, just in case, but with the height & weight disparity you'd typically be exposed to versus the average guy...I'd say learn to sense and avoid the full clinch.

Something else, is you absolutely need to keep your hips in close to the other guy to eliminate the space necessary for them to knee you. Also make sure to have grips to sense if they're going to let go for a quick elbow.

Turtle that neck!!! It's not shrugging your shoulders only...it's also sinking your neck, making sure your head is above your neck, sitting back and straight.

Your skill in wing chun should allow you to maintain the longer distance clinching, and to be able to dirty-box your way back into a preferred range as well.

But in general, you just need more time working with the clinch in training.

HumbleWCGuy

08-25-2010, 11:02 PM

Many people here posted what i to would have posted, so i added to the conversation rather than repeating.

First off - im guessing you've never sparred krav guys. Low groin shots are common and effective IME.

Secondably - i dont "beleive" as if it was "faith based". Its my experience. Which is why i did post.... you must be training with world class guys :o im in no way saying this works for everyone or all of the time. But it can and has work for me. and its relavant to the conversation, hater !

For someone that preaches 'train how you fight, fight how you train' mentality you sure dont let that spread across the board. Your my way or the highway mentality is amusing :cool:

Im guessing you love to turtle up on the ground to because you train with no knees to the head whilst on the ground....

Just because what i posted is a tech you dont train for or against, doesnt mean you can throw your toys. If you were familiar with it you would know where and how to gain such leverage.

If i've made it work, remind me why i wouldnt believe in it ? :p

Whos relying on it, I offered ONE idea seperate to that of others that had already posted the obvious.
You get your panties twisted too much, back away from posting for a week.

And while your last quuote here is true, IME its equaly important to realise there are "take on" and "take out" mentalities.

The fact you post

tells me you havent trained Larry Jordons dirty dozen LOL

For posers like T., it is an either or scenario with foul tactics. You are a Larper poser if you advocate them and a great warrior if you ignore them.

I heard a great story about Erik Paulson at an early mma event. He was the favorite to win, but they had few rules in the old days. Erik, with his then long hair, got out there with an old boxer (James Warring) who grabbed his hair and beat Erik like he stole some candy. To Erik's credit, he took a 16 minute beating in a no time limit match. I am not sure why his corner let this go on before they finally threw in the towel? The very fact that Erik went out there with long hair says something about the sport mind set.

The point is that foul tactics can level the playing field against a sport minded fighter. However, you have to always consider that anyone can use foul tactics and the victory will go to the person who understand how to dominate the ranges in those situations. Foul tactics can't be the excuse to not learn about a range.

HumbleWCGuy

08-26-2010, 12:23 AM

For the fools who think that I lie...This link makes mention of the hair pulling by James Warring. http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2010/8/24/1648547/ufc-118-preview-boxers-in-mma

Dragonzbane76

08-26-2010, 04:04 AM

nice clips... enjoyed watching some of the older stuff. Wish you could have found the paulson/warring fight. would liked to have watched that.

t_niehoff

08-26-2010, 06:28 AM

Many people here posted what i to would have posted, so i added to the conversation rather than repeating.

First off - im guessing you've never sparred krav guys. Low groin shots are common and effective IME.

In the context of dealing with the plumb -- which is what this discussion is about -- you are not going to be able to do a groin shot. I explained why. Go train with some competent MT people and you will see that I am telling you the truth.

Secondably - i dont "beleive" as if it was "faith based". Its my experience. Which is why i did post.... you must be training with world class guys :o im in no way saying this works for everyone or all of the time. But it can and has work for me. and its relavant to the conversation, hater !

That may be your experience with people who don't have a good plumb -- and, if people don't have skill with it, people can come up will all kinds of silly answers. That's why training with incompetent people is a huge problem: you think that you have an answer when in fact you've never even encountered the real problem.

For someone that preaches 'train how you fight, fight how you train' mentality you sure dont let that spread across the board. Your my way or the highway mentality is amusing :cool:

What I'm saying is that when you train with people skilled in the plumb, your ideas won't work -- if you had ever experienced a good plumb you'd know what I was talking about. You don't know because you haven't experienced it.

Im guessing you love to turtle up on the ground to because you train with no knees to the head whilst on the ground....

Keep imagining things because that seems to be what you are good at.

Just because what i posted is a tech you dont train for or against, doesnt mean you can throw your toys. If you were familiar with it you would know where and how to gain such leverage.

When you get caught in a good plumb, you are being yanked around continually by your head, and every yank is punctuated by a knee or elbow slamming into you. You won't even be able to reach their groin with your hands and if you lift a leg to kick, you'll be flying through the air. Nor will you have any power to pull his hair/chin since he will put his head next to yours (providing stability and giving him more leverage).

If i've made it work, remind me why i wouldnt believe in it ? :p

Sure you have -- against people who have no skill. BFD. That's like saying you were able to pinch your way out of the mount against someone.

Whos relying on it, I offered ONE idea seperate to that of others that had already posted the obvious.
You get your panties twisted too much, back away from posting for a week.

And while your last quuote here is true, IME its equaly important to realise there are "take on" and "take out" mentalities.

What is important is to train stuff that is fundamentally sound (and so works in sport), and not stuff that is not -- because then you are training to fail.

t_niehoff

08-26-2010, 06:42 AM

For posers like T., it is an either or scenario with foul tactics. You are a Larper poser if you advocate them and a great warrior if you ignore them.

You are either a liar or stupid or both. Go back and read what I wrote.

To make it easier: "being "sport-oriented" doesn't mean you don't take foul tactics into account. It just means that you have developed skills that actually work."

Sure, foul tactics CAN work, and sport fighters take them into account. But, they know when they can work, how they can work, etc. BECAUSE they have tons of experience "playing the game" and the base-skills to play the game.

Anyone who has put in time training with decent MT people (with good plumbs) will KNOW striking the groin won't work or that pulling the hair is silly. Go over to a MT forum and ask. They'll tell you.

I heard a great story about Erik Paulson at an early mma event. He was the favorite to win, but they had few rules in the old days. Erik, with his then long hair, got out there with an old boxer (James Warring) who grabbed his hair and beat Erik like he stole some candy. To Erik's credit, he took a 16 minute beating in a no time limit match. I am not sure why his corner let this go on before they finally threw in the towel? The very fact that Erik went out there with long hair says something about the sport mind set.

And Royce used Kimo's hair to hold him in his guard in their fight.

Try to get this into your minuscule brain: I'm not saying that hair pulling can't SOMETIMES be effective. Like most foul tactics, they can be effective IF USED AT THE APPROPRIATE TIME. This does not mean, however, that they will always work, in any situation, all the time. And, in this case, hair pulling won't save you if you are caught in plumb because you are in a bad position -- it is like thinking hair pulling will same you when mounted. It won't.

The point is that foul tactics can level the playing field against a sport minded fighter. However, you have to always consider that anyone can use foul tactics and the victory will go to the person who understand how to dominate the ranges in those situations. Foul tactics can't be the excuse to not learn about a range.

No, ABSOLUTELY WRONG. What foul tactics do is give the sport fighter more options when not sport fighting. When the sport fighter takes you down and mounts you, he can then easily thumb you in the eye.

The problem with non-sport fighters is that they think they will be able to pull off foul tactics against trained sport fighters to, in your words, level the playing field. No, they won't. If you don't have the fundamental skill set already in place -- which only comes from sport fighting -- then you won't have a base from which to effectively use any foul tactics.

HumbleWCGuy

08-26-2010, 06:58 AM

No, ABSOLUTELY WRONG. What foul tactics do is give the sport fighter more options when not sport fighting. When the sport fighter takes you down and mounts you, he can then easily thumb you in the eye.

The problem with non-sport fighters is that they think they will be able to pull off foul tactics against trained sport fighters to, in your words, level the playing field. No, they won't. If you don't have the fundamental skill set already in place -- which only comes from sport fighting -- then you won't have a base from which to effectively use any foul tactics.

Your mentality is that it is an either or scenario with foul tactics. One can train hard against resisting opponents as with sport or even sport fight, and not be a sport fighter per say.

I fought sport for example but the normal training always involved thinking about eye jabs, pulling someones hair, pulling someone's shirt over their head from the plum etc. When you fight sport competitions, you lose that because you start looking for sport-legal answers to situation all the time. For a person who advocates that training should look like fighting and vice versa, you don't understand how sport training conditions people. Ideally, one trains sport and practices foul tactics, that is a remarkable fighter.

Tell you what T. Bjjers hardly ever train finger locks or wrist locks. Next time you spar a higher belt. Slap a wrist lock on them and then ask your self if they really would have stopped that in the street?

t_niehoff

08-26-2010, 07:39 AM

Your mentality is that it is an either or scenario with foul tactics. One can train hard against resisting opponents as with sport or even sport fight, and not be a sport fighter per say.

No, that's not my mentality nor is it the mentality of the sport-fighters that I know and train with.

If you train realistically/functionally, then you will have adopted a sport-model of training (like judo). To do realistic training means you really DO it, really PERFORM it, etc. in practice against a genuinely resisting opponent. And that's because the sport-model is based on the understanding that we only get better at a skill by really doing that skill. Sport is game-based training: here is the game, here are the skills you need to play the game, etc.

I fought sport for example but the normal training always involved thinking about eye jabs, pulling someones hair, pulling someone's shirt over their head from the plum etc. When you fight sport competitions, you lose that because you start looking for sport-legal answers to situation all the time.

No. This is the sort of thing that tells me you aren't telling the truth and haven't really trained much in the way of sport-fighting. Sport doesn't make you look ONLY for sport-legal answers or not see other opportunities, it focuses on what has PROVED to work, time and time again. You focus on those things that work, not untested things. So when you need an answer, you go to what has PROVED to work.

For a person who advocates that training should look like fighting and vice versa, you don't understand how sport training conditions people. Ideally, one trains sport and practices foul tactics, that is a remarkable fighter.

Yeah, sport fighting conditions you to use what proves again and again to work.

Foul tactics won't work if you don't have the base skills already in place. If you are a poor grappler, foul tactics won't help you. If you are a good grappler, you will know the various foul tactics and be able to use them. Without sport training, the foul tactics are worthless. It's the same with stand-up and clinch.

Tell you what T. Bjjers hardly ever train finger locks or wrist locks. Next time you spar a higher belt. Slap a wrist lock on them and then ask your self if they really would have stopped that in the street?

You seem to labor under the delusion that sport fighters are oblivious to these things. They're not. Nor will they be open for you to apply these things. There are wrist locks in BJJ. Just like there are arm bars. But, you're not going to be able to pull of a wrist lock any easier than you will an arm bar -- both DEPEND on your base grappling skill. And that comes via sport training. Moreover, just like to develop skill hitting an arm bar, you need to realistically practice hitting the wrist lock if you expect to develop any significant ability to hit one. Or, do you think that this skill will just magically come to you? If you don't regularly practice it in rolling, you won't be able to do it.

Finger locks are just useless.

sanjuro_ronin

08-26-2010, 07:49 AM

Finger locks are just useless.

tell that to Major Payne !

HumbleWCGuy

08-26-2010, 08:44 AM

No, that's not my mentality nor is it the mentality of the sport-fighters that I know and train with.

If you train realistically/functionally, then you will have adopted a sport-model of training (like judo). To do realistic training means you really DO it, really PERFORM it, etc. in practice against a genuinely resisting opponent. And that's because the sport-model is based on the understanding that we only get better at a skill by really doing that skill. Sport is game-based training: here is the game, here are the skills you need to play the game, etc.

That's funny coming from a guy who has never entered a single full-contact event or even trained like he were going to one. There is a lot that happens to you physically and psychologically on the way to a fight and your complete lack of understanding of that is evident. You probably didn't even play middle school basketball or anything.

t_niehoff

08-26-2010, 09:58 AM

That's funny coming from a guy who has never entered a single full-contact event or even trained like he were going to one. There is a lot that happens to you physically and psychologically on the way to a fight and your complete lack of understanding of that is evident. You probably didn't even play middle school basketball or anything.

We're not talking about what "happens to you physically and psychologically on the way to a fight" -- every time you get nailed on something, you shift to something else that's not pertinent to the discussion. We were talking about foul tactics and your imagined "sport mentality."

As I pointed out, foul tactics are a PART of sport. And it's through sport-model training that we develop significant levels of skill.

HumbleWCGuy

08-26-2010, 10:04 AM

We're not talking about what "happens to you physically and psychologically on the way to a fight"

That's exactly what I have been talking about. They way that training conditions you to respond is a psychological process.

t_niehoff

08-26-2010, 10:29 AM

That's exactly what I have been talking about. They way that training conditions you to respond is a psychological process.

No, it is a psycho-physical process. Your training is both mental and physical to some varying degrees depending on the task/skill.

You seem to think that sport and foul tactics are somehow separate and distinct, or that foul tactics will give you some edge against a sport fighter. No. They are/will not. Foul tactics are a PART of sport, and always have been. Foul tactics are just "extensions" of the "normal" sport skills. But, skilled sport athletes -- in contrast to those who haven't trained sport -- know when they can use them. For example, hitting below the belt. Foul tactic. Do you think they are all accidents? ;) Who do you think can better pull off that foul tactic, the skilled boxer (sport trained) or some guy who believes should he ever get in a fight with a boxer he'll "level the playing field" (your words) with a below the belt shot?

HumbleWCGuy

08-26-2010, 11:08 AM

No, it is a psycho-physical process. Your training is both mental and physical to some varying degrees depending on the task/skill.
T. There is no such thing as psycho-physical. There is a branch of psychology called psycho-physics, but it doesn't quite match. The branch of psychology that describes memories and how they are stored is cognitive psychology which spends a lot of time studying the "mind" absent of its physical constructs.

You seem to think that sport and foul tactics are somehow separate and distinct, or that foul tactics will give you some edge against a sport fighter. No. They are/will not. Foul tactics are a PART of sport, and always have been. Foul tactics are just "extensions" of the "normal" sport skills. But, skilled sport athletes -- in contrast to those who haven't trained sport -- know when they can use them. For example, hitting below the belt. Foul tactic. Do you think they are all accidents? ;)

I am not under any illusion that all fouls are accidental, but the fact that a conscious decision must be made to commit one demonstrates my point. A stereotypical sport fighter has to think about committing a foul. Schools that place an emphasis on self-defense ahead of sport still do "sport-style" training but it never occurs to them that they shouldn't foul or even know what a foul is until they are handed a rule list for a competition. That's is the difference.

Who do you think can better pull off that foul tactic, the skilled boxer (sport trained) or some guy who believes should he ever get in a fight with a boxer he'll "level the playing field" (your words) with a below the belt shot?
Again, you have set up an either or scenario. My point has been and is that both styles of training are important. Sport training is fundamental to any good fighter. With proper protective equipment, common sense, or the use of house rules instead of competition rules, all of these foul techniques can be trained against resisting opponents.

Liddel

08-26-2010, 04:34 PM

In the context of dealing with the plumb -- which is what this discussion is about -- you are not going to be able to do a groin shot. I explained why. Go train with some competent MT people and you will see that I am telling you the truth.

When you get caught in a good plumb, you are being yanked around continually by your head, and every yank is punctuated by a knee or elbow slamming into you. You won't even be able to reach their groin with your hands and if you lift a leg to kick, you'll be flying through the air. Nor will you have any power to pull his hair/chin since he will put his head next to yours (providing stability and giving him more leverage).

Again if your not familiar with the tech dont assume it wont work. If you dont train it how can you comment as an authority on it rather than the theoretical non fighter you charge everyone else as being.

If a MT fighter does a perfect textbook plumb and has superior timing and ability then im in trouble no matter what i do. If im expecting certain actions from any given fighter of any given style, then i have the ability to avoid and control the situation better.... if ive trained against competent resisting opponents doing said action.

Do you have any experience with CQB or the dirty dozen ?

Ive experienced the plumb from what most would consider competent MT fighters, you however have not experienced milling with European CQB exponents which is where one of the forementioned techs comes from (fused with my Chun)

I suggest you find a school and go train to see. Employ a good plumb and work your stuff, Your eyes will be opened.

Sorry for hijacking the thread OP, im backing away now :)

sanjuro_ronin

08-27-2010, 05:36 AM

I got be honest with you guys, unless there is a sizebale weight and strength advantage, you don't see
When you get caught in a good plumb, you are being yanked around continually by your head, and every yank is punctuated by a knee or elbow slamming into you.
Seriously, you may see the occasional throw, if you wanna call it that, but this here almost gives the impression of tossing someone around like a rag doll.
To be honest, most MT coaches typically advise against trying to "muscle" the plum like that, the last seminar I attend with Chai he himself said not to do that and list a few reason why.
Speaking from personal experince, I have had a few guys try that but it didn't work for them because, well I am pretty strong to begin with but their over commitment made it easier to break the plum and/or unbalance them.
My view is to NOT try to do this unless you have a sizable weight or strength advantage.

Wayfaring

08-27-2010, 07:32 AM

To be honest, most MT coaches typically advise against trying to "muscle" the plum like that, the last seminar I attend with Chai he himself said not to do that and list a few reason why.

Well, they still teach you to hang off the neck so your opponent carries your weight, and they still teach to use your weight to get them moving to one side, and when their foot plants is when you knee strike - knee up vertically, then across horizontally for the strike, then to work the other side the same way.

I'm sure people muscle that as opposed to using natural weight and motion. That is missing one of the points of the plum, which is that if you are doing it correctly you are not burning energy but your opponent carrying your weight is burning energy.

sanjuro_ronin

08-27-2010, 07:39 AM

Well, they still teach you to hang off the neck so your opponent carries your weight, and they still teach to use your weight to get them moving to one side, and when their foot plants is when you knee strike - knee up vertically, then across horizontally for the strike, then to work the other side the same way.

I'm sure people muscle that as opposed to using natural weight and motion. That is missing one of the points of the plum, which is that if you are doing it correctly you are not burning energy but your opponent carrying your weight is burning energy.

Point taken, but that doesn't sound like "yanked around by your head".
Sort of like describing an overhead punch as a "haymaker from left field" know what I mean?

Xiao3 Meng4

08-27-2010, 08:25 AM

T. There is no such thing as psycho-physical. There is a branch of psychology called psycho-physics, but it doesn't quite match. The branch of psychology that describes memories and how they are stored is cognitive psychology which spends a lot of time studying the "mind" absent of its physical constructs.

Take a look at Psycho-Physiology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychophysiology).

t_niehoff

08-27-2010, 09:21 AM

Take a look at Psycho-Physiology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychophysiology).

Yes, it's too bad he never learned to google.

He might even see links like

http://www.ati-net.com/articles/kettrick1.php

http://www.bookrags.com/research/motor-skill-learning-lmem-01/

t_niehoff

08-27-2010, 09:42 AM

Point taken, but that doesn't sound like "yanked around by your head".
Sort of like describing an overhead punch as a "haymaker from left field" know what I mean?

If you go train at some good MT gyms (as I have been doing), you'll find my phrase "getting yanked around by your head" accurate.

Look at what Maliput is doing with the opponent's head:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brYgHlH6h0s&feature=related

Clinch training:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GInHuTewwZo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXGupbsm908&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-FQDYjyOQ4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ait_zG67W4&feature=related

Xiao3 Meng4

08-27-2010, 09:44 AM

The head is a joystick. Play your opponent creatively. :D

sanjuro_ronin

08-27-2010, 09:47 AM

If you go train at some good MT gyms (as I have been doing), you'll find my phrase "getting yanked around by your head" accurate.

Look at what Maliput is doing with the opponent's head:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brYgHlH6h0s&feature=related

Clinch training:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GInHuTewwZo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXGupbsm908&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-FQDYjyOQ4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ait_zG67W4&feature=related

Yeah, I think I over reacted to your "yanking" term, LOL !
I just pictured a "ragdoll" like scenario by your description.

t_niehoff

08-27-2010, 09:54 AM

Again if your not familiar with the tech dont assume it wont work. If you dont train it how can you comment as an authority on it rather than the theoretical non fighter you charge everyone else as being.

Your argument is nonsense. I know all kinds of things that won't work. Do I have to go train every sort of nonsense to know it won't work? From working the plumb and the MT clinch, I know the sorts of things that can possibly work and those that won't. Just as I know eye-jabs won't get you out of the mount.

If a MT fighter does a perfect textbook plumb and has superior timing and ability then im in trouble no matter what i do. If im expecting certain actions from any given fighter of any given style, then i have the ability to avoid and control the situation better.... if ive trained against competent resisting opponents doing said action.

This is nonsense too. Good fighters get out of good plumbs all the time.

Do you have any experience with CQB or the dirty dozen ?

I've looked at some of their articles. Dungeons & Dragons.

Ive experienced the plumb from what most would consider competent MT fighters, you however have not experienced milling with European CQB exponents which is where one of the forementioned techs comes from (fused with my Chun)

I suggest you find a school and go train to see. Employ a good plumb and work your stuff, Your eyes will be opened.

Sorry for hijacking the thread OP, im backing away now :)

It's amazing that people fall for that sort of nonsense.

SAAMAG

08-27-2010, 10:38 AM

Though most people know the word plum from Joe Rogan and UFC as being the double inside head control grip...

In actuality "Prruum" is a Thai word for "clinch" and is not a specific type of grip. So if you're discussing the muay thai prruum, you're discussing the muay thai clinching game as a whole.

The most correct way to talk about the specific grip in question in this thread, at least in english, is double inside head control, double inside grip, double neck tie (though you're not grabbing the neck), double collar tie, and etc.

In any case...here's some more good footage of "someone's" favorite fighter getting handled in working "pruum"
Pot and Saenchai (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9I-cKLqQfC8&feature=player_embedded)

More of Saenchai prruum work:
Saenchai and Mr X (http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=-t5a4cLxHtk&feature=related)

And for good measure...Pot showing some tricks
Some clinch tricks (http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=u_UjYgfZE8E&feature=related)

Some lesser known guys, but still very relevant to the thread:
Keatkhamtorn gym pruum (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMc9F3eaiok)

Now relative to the last video...Terence...how does your "wing chun grappling" play a role with something like this? I've found that the wing chun helps a great deal from this range, but would like to get some details from you as well since you've discussed this aspect of wing chun in past threads.

t_niehoff

08-27-2010, 01:45 PM

Terence...how does your "wing chun grappling" play a role with something like this? I've found that the wing chun helps a great deal from this range, but would like to get some details from you as well since you've discussed this aspect of wing chun in past threads.

It's not "my wing chun grappling" -- just like it isn't "my chi sao" -- but simply the method of WCK that comes from our ancestors.

WCK's method is to strike your way into "the phone booth", and to join/clinch with your opponent, and from there you off-balance him and/or break his structure/posture by pushing, pulling, cutting angles, wedging, etc., with any contact point that presents itself (arm, body, leg) and based on the energy the opponent feeds you, so that you can secure control positions from which to land finishing strikes. IOWs, to control while striking.

You asked about details. Can you do that -- control the opponent (toss him around like a rag doll) while striking him -- in chi sao? If you can't do that -- WCK with the training wheels on -- no details about how to do it without the training wheels will be much help.

HumbleWCGuy

08-27-2010, 01:52 PM

Yes, it's too bad he never learned to google.

He might even see links like

http://www.ati-net.com/articles/kettrick1.php

http://www.bookrags.com/research/motor-skill-learning-lmem-01/
I stand corrected.

HumbleWCGuy

08-27-2010, 03:38 PM

It's not "my wing chun grappling" -- just like it isn't "my chi sao" -- but simply the method of WCK that comes from our ancestors.

WCK's method is to strike your way into "the phone booth", and to join/clinch with your opponent, and from there you off-balance him and/or break his structure/posture by pushing, pulling, cutting angles, wedging, etc., with any contact point that presents itself (arm, body, leg) and based on the energy the opponent feeds you, so that you can secure control positions from which to land finishing strikes. IOWs, to control while striking.

It looks like my posts are starting to sink in. Eventually, you will come to understand that those techniques that you use to "strike your way into 'the phone booth'" also work to stay at range so that your Wing Chun isn't so one dimensional. Those tools allow Alan and company to "WC kickbox."

HumbleWCGuy

08-27-2010, 05:25 PM

It's not "my wing chun grappling" -- just like it isn't "my chi sao" -- but simply the method of WCK that comes from our ancestors.

It is yours in the sense that only you and larper schools that have no interest in actual fighting application share your views on WC. Although, I think that your understanding of WC is starting to expand. WC is an art with limitations, but your past posts on the limitations of wc were just idiotic for someone with the experiences and martial arts tenure that you claim to have.

t_niehoff

08-29-2010, 05:15 AM

It is yours in the sense that only you and larper schools that have no interest in actual fighting application share your views on WC. Although, I think that your understanding of WC is starting to expand. WC is an art with limitations, but your past posts on the limitations of wc were just idiotic for someone with the experiences and martial arts tenure that you claim to have.

You haven't learned WCK and don't train it. Yet, I'm the LARPER! Right.

It's a very easy thing to tell. Just see if the WCK people who are successfully doing in fighting/sparring (full intensity) what they train to do as they train to do it. Are they using WCK movement (the movement you learn in the forms and drills of WCK) or are they, for example, kickboxing?

t_niehoff

08-29-2010, 05:16 AM

It looks like my posts are starting to sink in. Eventually, you will come to understand that those techniques that you use to "strike your way into 'the phone booth'" also work to stay at range so that your Wing Chun isn't so one dimensional. Those tools allow Alan and company to "WC kickbox."

You don't know what Alan is doing.

Your posts are nonsense. You don't even practice WCK.

HumbleWCGuy

08-29-2010, 07:42 AM

You don't know what Alan is doing.

Your posts are nonsense. You don't even practice WCK.

Apparently I know more than you because you conveniently ignored the comments that I reposted from Alan that directly contradict your claims about what he does. We see Alan's students kickboxing, and he claims to be using straight CSL. Do you care to comment or are you going to continue to avoid the question?

HumbleWCGuy

08-29-2010, 07:43 AM

You haven't learned WCK and don't train it. Yet, I'm the LARPER! Right.

Yea, so that's why every body who does wc pretty much laughs at your posts or ignores them. You flip flop opinions, and make wild claims. LOL... Now you are trying to use my ideas and pretend that you thought of them. The bottom line is that you are 100% clueless about WC.

It's a very easy thing to tell. Just see if the WCK people who are successfully doing in fighting/sparring (full intensity) what they train to do as they train to do it. Are they using WCK movement (the movement you learn in the forms and drills of WCK) or are they, for example, kickboxing?
I do both. They can be taught concurrently or cyclically.

SAAMAG

08-30-2010, 09:07 AM

You asked about details. Can you do that -- control the opponent (toss him around like a rag doll) while striking him -- in chi sao? If you can't do that -- WCK with the training wheels on -- no details about how to do it without the training wheels will be much help.

I was actually looking to try and steer the conversation back to what the OP had in mind...which was finding solutions that WING CHUN may have for clinching. I genuinely felt that you might have some solid details talk about towards that end.

But of course in Terence fashion your best response was, and I paraphrase: "I could explain but you wouldn't understand because unless you can throw people around like a rag-doll"??

Classic. Basically what that means is that you have no details to talk about...and you're trying to put the onus on the other guy to make it seem like it's HIS fault you're not able to discuss things further. Quite pathetic. Tell you what...I'll just take it from here because it seems that you're not going to be able to. It's time to put up or shut up Terence. If you really know what you're talking about....then start giving details. If you don't .... then you'll keep dodging the details.

SAAMAG

08-30-2010, 09:08 AM

You asked about details. Can you do that -- control the opponent (toss him around like a rag doll) while striking him -- in chi sao? If you can't do that -- WCK with the training wheels on -- no details about how to do it without the training wheels will be much help.

I was actually looking to try and steer the conversation back to what the OP had in mind...which was finding solutions that WING CHUN may have for clinching.

But of course in Terence fashion your best response was, and I paraphrase: "I could explain but you wouldn't understand unless you can throw people around like a rag-doll"??

Classic. Basically what that means is that you have no details to talk about...and you're trying to put the onus on the other guy to make it seem like it's HIS fault you're not able to discuss things further. Quite pathetic. Tell you what...I'll just take it from here because it seems that you're not going to be able to. It's time to put up or shut up Terence. If you really know what you're talking about....then start giving details. If you don't .... then we all will continue to know you're full of ****.

BTW...the ability to throw someone around like a rag doll only comes when there is a significant disparity in skill levels. i.e. new guy versus experienced guy, or your imaginary world class guys tossing you around. You're not going to see to equally skilled guys clinching and one be manhandled by the other...what you WILL see is a lot of neutralizing and countering. All the videos I've put up have proven that.

t_niehoff

08-30-2010, 09:36 AM

I was actually looking to try and steer the conversation back to what the OP had in mind...which was finding solutions that WING CHUN may have for clinching.

WCK IS clinching. Or, to be more accurate, controlling while striking.

But of course in Terence fashion your best response was, and I paraphrase: "I could explain but you wouldn't understand unless you can throw people around like a rag-doll"??

And my point is that if a person doesn't have a grasp of the fundamentals of WCK's method of controlling an opponent -- which we learn in chi sao -- how can we talk about specific details of doing that in fighting?

We need to have a commonality of experience to draw from to talk about these things.

Classic. Basically what that means is that you have no details to talk about...and you're trying to put the onus on the other guy to make it seem like it's HIS fault you're not able to discuss things further. Quite pathetic. Tell you what...I'll just take it from here because it seems that you're not going to be able to. It's time to put up or shut up Terence. If you really know what you're talking about....then start giving details. If you don't .... then we all will continue to know you're full of ****.

Here's a detail: your weight MUST be on your toes (not on your heels, not flat-footed). Does that help you? It all begins with body structure, and that begins with being on your toes (balls of your feet or the kidney 1 point for the traditionalists among you). If you don't have good body structure, NOTHING else matters. That's fundamental #1 and everything builds off of it.

But if a person doesn't have that skill, then what else can we talk about?

BTW...the ability to throw someone around like a rag doll only comes when there is a significant disparity in skill levels. i.e. new guy versus experienced guy, or your imaginary world class guys tossing you around.

No it doesn't. It occurs with equally skilled fighters all the time.

You're not going to see to equally skilled guys clinching and one be manhandled by the other...what you WILL see is a lot of neutralizing and countering. All the videos I've put up have proven that.

Even when you are neutralizing and countering, you are getting jerked around like a rag doll. That's the nature of clinch. Even when you are neutral, both sides are jerking the other around.

SAAMAG

08-30-2010, 09:53 AM

Thanks for taking the bait. I figured that would get you writing a bit more. I'd just like for you to elaborate and have meaningful conversation as opposed to the normal crap. I think you've got good knowledge to share and that hoarding it under the guise of "you wouldnt understand" does the people that could benefit from it no good.

You're right, the stance plays a fundamental role in all systems. I agree on the balls of the feet with clinching as well...I've never seen clinching done any other way.

As far a rag doll stuff--what you described for equally skilled folks is just normal clinching. Back and forth. When you say "rag doll" that means one guy is getting handled and can't do anything about it. In my definition anyway. So we've got different views of the phrase.

But going back to the original question, assuming people are drawing from the same pool of knowledge, what are some of the ways that WC currently has to address the clinch game?

t_niehoff

08-30-2010, 10:03 AM

Thanks for taking the bait. I figured that would get you writing a bit more. I'd just like for you to elaborate and have meaningful conversation as opposed to the normal crap. I think you've got good knowledge to share and that hoarding it under the guise of "you wouldnt understand" does the people that could benefit from it no good.

You're right, the stance plays a fundamental role in all systems. I agree on the balls of the feet with clinching as well...I've never seen clinching done any other way.

But going back to the original question, assuming people are drawing from the same pool of knowledge, what are some of the ways that WC currently has to address the clinch game?

I think there is something fundamentally wrong with your question. It's like asking "how does surfing address staying on the surfboard?"

WCK IS a clinch game so it already "addresses" it. Everything we do "addresses" it. WCK's method is to join (dap) with your opponent and cut off (jeet) his offense, then to break his structure (chum) and deliver your weapons (biu), all the while maintaining a flexible attachment (chi) to him.

SAAMAG

08-30-2010, 11:10 AM

I don't think it's a difficult question.

In order to surf, the rider has to have certain techniques engrained to be able to stay on the board and ride the wave back in.

WCK has certain techniques to address fighting. In this case the area of fighting is clinching. If WCK has certain tactics used specifically for clinching...what are they?

For example, in my past reply in this thread, I mentioned a technique used in MT to transition from being in the dominant clinch to using the dominant clinch:

Using a wedge to come forward, that's also used as a tactic in Muay Thai and shouldn't be alien to wc folk either (because in one of the tactics you're basically using a pak/gam to the inside elbow while you biu over your hand into the created space into man geng sao).

It provides more detail than saying "all of it is used for the clinch" and specifically addresses the OP's question in a wing chun context.

bennyvt

08-30-2010, 02:10 PM

I tend to go to the outside as someone with good elbow power tend to lock my hands between his elbows. I find driving from the outside breaks the waist as well.
I was hopiong this would get onto clinch, wrestling ties etc as they are all the same really. I wrote the plum as most people think of that as clinching.The idea is for the VT guys to say what they have tried, did it work etc. its about learning more then trying to tell you what to do. There must be a few people that train with other styles but still use their VT. I find that my VT is good right up until they get so close as to body lock me. then I have to shoot for hooks and get my base again then make space and VT again. Any body have the same problem.

HumbleWCGuy

08-30-2010, 02:57 PM