Learn through Sparring

[YouKnowWho]

When I taught my class, I asked my students to spar on the 1st day. They might not know what to do, but they could learn to move their head away from a incoming punch, and raised their leg to block a incoming kick. That would be good enough if they could do that on their 1st day.

Even if the round house kick exist in the Longfist system. It is not part of the solo drills training. One day in the sparring, I used a non-perfect foot sweep. It didn't sweep my opponent down but it hurt my opponent's leg big time. That day was the day that I found out how to use my round house kick.

I also found out that if I had right leg forward and my opponent had left leg forward (mirror stance), a hook punch could give me a perfect set up for my "hip throw" and I didn't even have to spin my body. Before that day, I didn't even know without body spinning, my hip throw could be possible.

We can learn a lot from the sparring that we can't learn from our solo form training. I just don't understand why some CMA teachers don't use sparring as a valid teaching tool. The teacher can always gradually introduce his style principles one at a time into the sparring training. If you train this way, in two years, you will have some good Taiji fighters, XingYi fighters, Bagua fighters, Longfist fighters, ... What's your opinion on this?

[SanHeChuan]

Two big concerns people have is;


Students developing bad habits

and

Students hurting each other/selves.



I would hate to be put up against some uncontrolled newb off the street my first day.


But not a terrible Idea if you can make it work.

Boxers start sparring early.

[MasterKiller]

I spar the new people on their first day. Once I know what they can handle (or if they work me over :o ), I rotate them in with the others.

[YouKnowWho]

I spar the new people on their first day. Once I know what they can handle (or if they work me over :o ), I rotate them in with the others.

I used to make 2 circles. The person in the inside circle spars with the person in the outside circle. 1 minute later, the inside circle rotate so everybody will get a new partner.

[Syn7]

is there anyone here who does not spar, never has sparred, only does forms but claim to be able to fight? whether its true or false...

does anyone here disagree with sparring?

[Lucas]

I spar the new people on their first day. Once I know what they can handle (or if they work me over :o ), I rotate them in with the others.

i think this is a very good method. as the teacher/coach you get to determine hands on where you feel they would best jump into the fray of class.

[Dragonzbane76]

I spar the new people on their first day. Once I know what they can handle (or if they work me over ), I rotate them in with the others.

answer here....

[HumbleWCGuy]

I have done it both ways. I think that sparring early on, even light is kind of humiliating for students. It's better to wait if you ask me. There are other cost benefits but the humiliation factor is the biggest to me.

[SavvySavage]

Through sparring I learned that I couldn't actually throw(and land) a connected concentrated blow like I did against the bag or during two person drilling done during the initial years. Through sparring I learned that forms are not actually good stamina building tools. Through sparring I learned that having adequate power is more important than having better technique. I consider these all great lessons to have learned from sparring.

[YouKnowWho]

Through sparring I learned that ...

Through sparring I learned that "3 steps 1 punch (I call it running punch)" is as important as "1 step 3 punches".

I also believe that we should isolate boxing, kickboxing, and wrestling in the early stage. After people feel comfortable about it, we then move toward the more integrated Sanshou stage.

We have to be honest to ask ourselves a question, "Do we truly enjoy body pain?" I can't speak for others but for myself, if I don't feel body pain for a period of time, I don't feel comfortable because I don't know I can still take body pain or not. That kind of thinking just scare me. If I can feel body pain daily, I know that my body is not soft yet. That can give me a lot of self-confidence.

May be "learning through sparring" do require this kind of "enjoy body pain" attitude. Even today, the 1st thing in my class is to let my student to round house kick at my leg, my body, and use his arm to hit on my arm as hard as he likes. After 20 minutes, I'll feel as young as a 20 years old again.

[Lucas]

imo there are 2 types of martial artists. there are those that like contact and there are those that dont.

there are a lot of people that start martial art training for reasons other than fighting.

i cannot say this is wrong or anything for other people, but for me this is wrong. if i dont want to fight at all i will go learn gymnastics or dancing or something. but i want to get in the mix right away when i am going to go learn to fight.

if i go to learn to fight and you say 'sorry you dont get to spar at all for 1year' i will leave.

[Yum Cha]

Is this another take on the academic vs practical argument.

One idea is that you take a complex motion or activity, and you break it down into granular incremental pieces. Then you learn small simple pieces perfectly, then you combine the pieces and refine, adding more and more pieces together until you have learned the full activity. Of course it takes longer to get to the full comprehensive activity, because there are so many building blocks to put into place, and they are all progressively more difficult. But when they do come into place, the skill is instant.
Now, if combat isn't addressed in your training fundamentals, it certainly won't just appear, its just a high level combination of fundamental skills. Maybe, this is the way you learn math?

The other, as you mentioned in your post, is the apprentice, journeyman, master model, where you start doing what comprehensive tasks you can, and as you get better you build your expertise until you can do it all at a moderate level. Then you go out, doing it all for a long time, getting better and better, until you get as good as you will and become the Master, who is a teacher. Sometimes called, "the school of hard knocks." Maybe this is the way you learn to write?

Of course, there is heaps of crossover, its just a concept. I think most agree there is a mix of both required.

Education is efficient, but it takes an investment up front, and this is how we reached the stars and understand molecular biology.

Practical is effective because it brings a minimum performance level quickly, and builds applicable, productive talent continuously. This is how art is created.

[Yum Cha]

imo there are 2 types of martial artists. there are those that like contact and there are those that dont.


Lucas, sorry. I have to dispute that call.

A. EVERYBODY likes contact, when your pitching.
B. NOBODY likes contact when your catching.

The difference is simply the willingness to accept B, for the chance to do A.

[Syn7]

Lucas, sorry. I have to dispute that call.

A. EVERYBODY likes contact, when your pitching.
B. NOBODY likes contact when your catching.

The difference is simply the willingness to accept B, for the chance to do A.

you know, im not some weirdo that gets off on pain, but in the right frame of mind, i dont mind getting hit so much... it gets to me in the way that i would rather have blocked or dodged it but other than that, its not so bad... the only strike that i really would rather not ever experience again is a ko liver shot... omg that hurt... my legs lost all function and down i went... im just glad i didnt do anything embarassing like some stories ive heard of cats ****ing or ****ting themselves after a kick like that... now that would suck cajones forsure...

[David Jamieson]

never take the oil change unless you get the wrap around.

[Kansuke]

We have to be honest to ask ourselves a question, "Do we truly enjoy body pain?" I can't speak for others but for myself, if I don't feel body pain for a period of time, I don't feel comfortable because I don't know I can still take body pain or not. That kind of thinking just scare me. If I can feel body pain daily, I know that my body is not soft yet.



You need to see a shrink.

[Syn7]

never take the oil change unless you get the wrap around.

whats that mean??? is it anything like a reacharound???:rolleyes:

[Frost]

full sparring on the first day is a bit silly, you are just reinforcing bad habits even if it is done at a less intense pace than the more experienced fighters, but isolated sparring using techniques they have just learned is a good idea, jab against jab, straight punches only etc. This gives them confidence in their new skills whilst not overloading them. Its slightly different with grappling as its more relaxed and you can let them roll on the first day as long as they have been taught how to break fall and tap on the ground

[SavvySavage]

full sparring on the first day is a bit silly, you are just reinforcing bad habits even if it is done at a less intense pace than the more experienced fighters, but isolated sparring using techniques they have just learned is a good idea, jab against jab, straight punches only etc. This gives them confidence in their new skills whilst not overloading them. Its slightly different with grappling as its more relaxed and you can let them roll on the first day as long as they have been taught how to break fall and tap on the ground

Chi Sao/push hands drills are a good place for new students to start early. These drills shouldn't just be the uprooting kind but should include striking, pushing, limited wrestling(limited in case students' breakfalls aren't good yet). These drills are much more controlled than sparring and build good initial reflexes. Students might want to step away from these drills to spar later but this is a good starting place.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I "sparred" the first day in TKD, Kyokushin, Judo, Boxing, MT, almost every system I ever trained, except for Wing Chun and when I was a kid starting Hung kuen.
The degree of contact was always dependent on what I was comfortable with.
It was light contact in most cases, but it got vamped up quick.

A point to be made is that no one really "likes" getting hit, I think the difference between those that are OK with hard/full contact and those that aren't is HOW they react to getting hit.
If you are they type that "winces" you won't like hard contact, but if you are the type that "kicks it up a notch", like a switch was turned on, then you get the most out of hard contact.

[KC Elbows]

Sparring, early or later, can only create or reinforce bad habits if the teacher doesn't stress good habits or the student doesn't listen.

The advantage of learning sparring early is that, even aside from whether one is implementing what one is teaching or learning, there are less rule specific shenanigans to save you vs. chi sao or tui shou, so you get a clearer measure of what is working without ingraining habits that are only helpful in drills like chi sao or tui shou, but counterproductive in full fighting.

That said, one's ability to spar is limited until one has something rational to spar with, so basics are necessary quickly if one wants people sparring early: basics like the basic strikes and kicks and footworks.

[sanjuro_ronin]

A few things that sparring does teach you early and is a very good lesson to learn:
For the rookie:
You are NOT as good as you think you are and, if you are a big person, you realise that size matters, but only when you are good.
For the "trained" person:
Unorthodox fighters ie: rookies, present a whole new set of problems.
Higher skill level that translated to power and control,trumps size and speed, never forget that.

[Lucas]

Lucas, sorry. I have to dispute that call.

A. EVERYBODY likes contact, when your pitching.
B. NOBODY likes contact when your catching.

The difference is simply the willingness to accept B, for the chance to do A.

i guess i should use the word comfortable instead of like. what i mean by that post is that some people will never be comfortable in a contact situation, no matter how much they train, because some people just are not fighters in the slightest, period, i have met these people they usually quit after a few sparring matches, or become form collectors. some people will 'come around' and get over the intimidation/fear/what have you.

i dont mean like some masacistic freak...lol :D

[KC Elbows]

A few sessions won't get them over that. BUT, I do think that anyone can get comfortable with anything.

I give students the "fighting is like ****ing" speech. Sure, it's awkward the first time, and probably nothing you'd brag about when you know more, but only by repeated practice will you learn to last and deliver the goods. It's fun, whether dirty or clean, you should be safe, choose your partners well, be consistent, don't get complacent, and if a rash develops, see a doctor pronto. If you stop after the first time, of course you're not gonna grasp how much fun it can be. What're you gonna do, play with yourself forever? Shut up and dive in!

I use a slide show version for the kids program. Saves me the time of explaining what a beefcurtain is.

[Dragonzbane76]

Saves me the time of explaining what a beefcurtain is.

lol classic... bearded clam speech....:D

[KC Elbows]

lol classic... bearded clam speech....:D

Hey class time is limited, I'm not cutting into the time put aside for teaching wude just because little Johnny can't get work the internet.

That's the sort of thing they should be learning at home, like how to pry open the liquor cabinet, and where grandpa keeps the woody pills.

[Lucas]

kc you are too funny. between you and bawang my co workers thing i have laughing tourettes...

[KC Elbows]

kc you are too funny. between you and bawang my co workers thing i have laughing tourettes...

Coworkers? In this economy?

I'm calling bull****!

[Lucas]

lol granted there are only 2 or 3 of them......:o

[Lee Chiang Po]

Just what martial art can you teach where you spar them on day one? What about technique? What about method and such. How do they know what punches and kicks and even blocks to use on day one. It sounds more to my like a haphazard catch as catch can miele. What could they possibly learn from this?
To teach a martial art system you need to spend a lot of time teaching form and technique, as well as teaching simple aspects. You are putting the cart before the horse here. To teach anything you start in the beginning and work toward the end. You do not start in the middle and work out.

[YouKnowWho]

You do not start in the middle and work out.
In artifitial intellgent (AI), if you want to search the path between a root and a leaf, you can start from the root and reach to your leaf. You can also start from that leaf and back to the root. The 3rd method is to start from both the root and leaf and then meet in the middle. In AI, it's called bi-directional search. It will give you the fastest search time.

The bi-directional search is like to spar on the 1st day. If you get hit on your face in your 1st day, you will be serious to learn how to block/deflect that punch on your 2nd day. When you find out that you won't get hit on your face in your 3rd day, you will have "strong confidence" in your teacher's teaching method. You will have less chance to quite your CMA training this way IMO.

Compare to the following teaching method:

A: Dear master! Why am I standing in this posture for 30 minutes.
B: If you keep doing this for the next 5 years, you will develop ...

[hskwarrior]

Lee Chiang Po
Just what martial art can you teach where you spar them on day one? What about technique? What about method and such. How do they know what punches and kicks and even blocks to use on day one. It sounds more to my like a haphazard catch as catch can miele. What could they possibly learn from this?

To teach a martial art system you need to spend a lot of time teaching form and technique, as well as teaching simple aspects. You are putting the cart before the horse here. To teach anything you start in the beginning and work toward the end. You do not start in the middle and work out.

how about me as the teacher wanting to GAUGE the new students abilities by letting him/them spar on the first day? there's nothihg wrong with that. for one, it shows you as the teacher what kind of work you have cut out for you. for example, the kid my be really quiet in life but a killer when it comes to fighting. or a tough looking guy who says he can fight but on the first day of watching his movement you'd know if he was lying or not.

if my new students want to spar on first day thats up to them. MOST of them say " "if i don't spar someone better than me then how will i learn?" how can i turn that down?

[YouKnowWho]

When a beginner trains throwing art, he will always be thrown in day one. The reason is because he is an honest person. When his opponent pushes, he resists. When his opponent pulls, he also resists. After he finds out that everytime his opponent can always borrow his resistence to throw him, The day that when his opponent pushes, he pulles, when his opponent pulls, he pushes, he will no longer be an honest person and he is no longer a "beginner" either. We can learn so much just from sparring/wrestling.

[IronWeasel]

I have done it both ways. I think that sparring early on, even light is kind of humiliating for students. It's better to wait if you ask me. There are other cost benefits but the humiliation factor is the biggest to me.



Fragile, overly sensitive people with overblown egos will be humiliated by something...eventually.

They end up doing chi sao on Youtube in the end.

[Lucas]

getting beat up and humuliated was one of the best things that ever happend to me. :D

[Syn7]

thats one of the reasons i love grappling... you can go all out and injuries are minimal... and theres just something so satisfying about ducking a strike, hitting a sick over the top double and locking something in on the scramble... esspecially when its against someone who thinks they are unbeatable because they can punch through a wall... watching them tap 10 seconds into the match is absolutely positively the best... the only thing better is when you're the one getting schooled...

[YouKnowWho]

thats one of the reasons i love grappling... you can go all out and injuries are minimal...

That's true. There is always a lucky punch, but there will never be a lucky throw.

[Kansuke]

getting beat up and humuliated was one of the best things that ever happend to me. :D



How much did you have to pay her?

[SavvySavage]

When a beginner trains throwing art, he will always be thrown in day one. The reason is because he is an honest person. When his opponent pushes, he resists. When his opponent pulls, he also resists. After he finds out that everytime his opponent can always borrow his resistence to throw him, The day that when his opponent pushes, he pulles, when his opponent pulls, he pushes, he will no longer be an honest person and he is no longer a "beginner" either. We can learn so much just from sparring/wrestling.


Youknowwho,
Have you found that heavy conditioning along side wrestling has helped a person overcome bigger guys or is it all just an eventual learning process.

[Kansuke]

Youknowwho,
Have you found that heavy conditioning along side wrestling has helped a person overcome bigger guys.



Obviously it can.

[YouKnowWho]

Youknowwho,
Have you found that heavy conditioning along side wrestling has helped a person overcome bigger guys or is it all just an eventual learning process.

Old Chinese saying said:

- Strength can beat 10 best techniques.
- 4 oz skilled force can "counter (not defeat)" 1,000 lb non-skilled force.
- Skill beats fast, fast beats slow, slow beats no-skill.

You will need to "shake' a big guy first before you do anything.

[Syn7]

Youknowwho,
Have you found that heavy conditioning along side wrestling has helped a person overcome bigger guys or is it all just an eventual learning process.

yes, but only to a certain extent... you have to be better than the bigger guy... otherwise, if he's just as good as you are, size takes precedence... ofcourse... all the training in the world wont help you against some cat that is just as skilled as you are but twice your size... but then thats a given, right???

seems like a silly question...

this answer applies to most things physical... if two baseball players have the same swing but one is stronger he'll obviously hit the ball further most of the time...

[Dragonzbane76]

- Strength can beat 10 best techniques.
- 4 oz skilled force can "counter (not defeat)" 1,000 lb non-skilled force.
- Skill beats fast, fast beats slow, slow beats no-skill.
- and a .45 will beat them all.

fixed that for yeah...:)

[Lee Chiang Po]

In artifitial intellgent (AI), if you want to search the path between a root and a leaf, you can start from the root and reach to your leaf. You can also start from that leaf and back to the root. The 3rd method is to start from both the root and leaf and then meet in the middle. In AI, it's called bi-directional search. It will give you the fastest search time.

The bi-directional search is like to spar on the 1st day. If you get hit on your face in your 1st day, you will be serious to learn how to block/deflect that punch on your 2nd day. When you find out that you won't get hit on your face in your 3rd day, you will have "strong confidence" in your teacher's teaching method. You will have less chance to quite your CMA training this way IMO.

Compare to the following teaching method:

A: Dear master! Why am I standing in this posture for 30 minutes.
B: If you keep doing this for the next 5 years, you will develop ...

That all makes about as much sense as giving a math test on the very first day school. When a person comes to you and pays you to teach them something, it don't really make sense to test them to see what they know already. Or to see what they are made of. It really shouldn't matter if you are getting paid for it. Sparring a group of new students will only tell you who is the toughest maybe. Nothing is learned through sparring. It is learned as you teach it, and then sparring is used to see how well they learn it. Learning is done by step and stage. You teach and then you test.

[YouKnowWho]

giving a math test on the very first day school.
One day someone sent a boy to a SC master. The SC master asked one of his student to test on this boy. When the boy was thrown in the air (the senior student did know how to protect this boy from falling), the boy's face turned pale. The SC master told that boy, "I don't think my style will fit you. You should try to find another style." One day the SC master met another boy. He asked his student to test on that boy again. When that boy was thrown in the air, he had a big smile on his face. The moment that he was thrown down on to the ground, the moment that he jumped back up on his feet without any delay. The SC master told his other students, "This boy is just like a bouncing ball. He will have a great future in our system."

IMO, the early testing could save both the teacher and the student a lot of time.

A: You have learned from me for 2 years now. Why don't you try to spar with ...?
B: Dear master! I though that I train your style for health and spiritual development. I truly didn't know that you expect me to fight.
A: ...

[SoCo KungFu]

That all makes about as much sense as giving a math test on the very first day school. When a person comes to you and pays you to teach them something, it don't really make sense to test them to see what they know already. Or to see what they are made of. It really shouldn't matter if you are getting paid for it. Sparring a group of new students will only tell you who is the toughest maybe. Nothing is learned through sparring. It is learned as you teach it, and then sparring is used to see how well they learn it. Learning is done by step and stage. You teach and then you test.

I'm not sure how long you been out of school but lots of places "pretest" on the first day in subjects ranging from math to my cert in prehospital traumatic life support. Furthermore, by your own admission in another post you haven't fought since you were a teen and you admit to never hard sparring nor competing in any measurable contact so you really have little to no experience to speak from and I think little just got on a horse and is riding out of town.

[SoCo KungFu]

Two big concerns people have is;


Students developing bad habits

and

Students hurting each other/selves.



I would hate to be put up against some uncontrolled newb off the street my first day.


But not a terrible Idea if you can make it work.

Boxers start sparring early.

1) Students don't develop bad habits if they are being actively taught. Doing forms for a month before trading leather develops bad habits. The best way for a student to learn to duck is to get punched in the face.

2) Students don't hurt themselves if they are being actively policed in class. This doesn't have to be by the instructor either. Its not a hard thing to do. I have yet to see anyone get hurt from sparring on day one and that is in an MMA gym which by default probably spars harder than most if not all TMA gyms, since we are training for fights.

In fact the only real "injury" that is regularly occurring is new guys not listening and showing up without some sort of cup on and taking a stray shot in the groon.

[Syn7]

That all makes about as much sense as giving a math test on the very first day school. When a person comes to you and pays you to teach them something, it don't really make sense to test them to see what they know already. Or to see what they are made of. It really shouldn't matter if you are getting paid for it. Sparring a group of new students will only tell you who is the toughest maybe. Nothing is learned through sparring. It is learned as you teach it, and then sparring is used to see how well they learn it. Learning is done by step and stage. You teach and then you test.

i dunno if i agree with that... what if you arent teaching for the money? what if you have a genuine interest in seeing your style flourish???

seeing whats what on the first day will tell any experienced teacher what they need to do first to get the newbies skills all evened out and on par with eachother...

like, if he can kick well but cant punch, start with the hands... if he has decent punches and a bit of power but couldnt block or dodge a punch from gramma, well then defence is a priority...

when their offence and defence are on par with eachother, only then can the student truly move foreward in a properly well rounded format... too often you see a guy that is great at one thing and horrible at the other... that shouldnt happen...

people have natural abilities and tendancies to do better in one situation over another... thats their natural disposition and whatnot, but then the teaching comes in and when you are teaching somebody how to fight you need to cover all the bases at the same time, slowly if need be... but never one at a time... i mean who goes to class and only learns to kick for six months before they learn to block a kick, or how to punch etc etc... youknowhutimsayin???

and how else can you know this without observing them??? it doesnt have to be full contact point matches... even a simple one two combo where one is offence one is defence, reset, go again etc... drilling that way is still sparring... you dont throw the kid to the wolves, just test em out a bit...

and if it scares them then you need to know that too, so you can start building them up psychologically aswell... mind is a good chunk of the game, some need to be humbled and some need to be made to see their worth...

[Syn7]

a good example... when i started bjj i already had a wrestling background... so right off the bat it was clear i could take down avoid the takedown and was better than average and gaining and maintaining top position... but i was like a fish out of water on my back... i spent months learning offense and defence off my back and i had to completely re-learn how to scramble as its a whole new ballgame with bjj rules... only when i was comfy on my back did we get back to standing up and my top game... and im a better grappler for it... first day i squared off against the other begginers and nobody could even take me down... then when i met the intermediates i started getting more competition... but once they did get me down i always got subbed within seconds... it was clear from free rolling that i needed some mat time on my back...

[SoCo KungFu]

Unless you're training in a forms factory, anybody with a few months of training should be able within reason to give some level of coaching to a newbie. It should never be an issue of throwing someone to the wolves because students should be getting experience from day 1. Every sparring round should be a learning session. That just continues for advanced as well. No one is too good for a pointer from a sparring partner. This is the kind of back and forth constructive criticism you can gain from regularly sparring even from the beginning. You don't get that by holding people back. Most of the "problems" people post here can be easily avoided and really aren't as much of a problem as they think. They'd see that if they actually engaged in the type of training they are so afraid of instituting.

And as far as the mental stuff, having someone spar in the beginning is better for their confidence than holding them out. People are afraid of humiliation. But newbies rarely expect to do well and its not a big mental shock when they don't. But when they get to know people and put a few months in they feel even more threatened by poor performance because they feel they should do well given their time in. However, sparring early and regularly tends to put people in a mindset of progressive goals. And with progressive, attainable goals and the real feedback from sparring along with constant coaching from the instructors and sparring partners, people tend to progress quite fast if they put in the effort. Moreover, by constantly having their skills tested by their sparring partners, people tend to be much more comfortable with failure than someone left to stew in their thoughts for a few months.

[bawang]

fighting on the first day was a common initiation rite. its lets u know what ur getting into.
but i think in today kung fu, most ppl cant even punch properly, forget about sparring worry about improve the quality and attitude

[Lee Chiang Po]

I'm not sure how long you been out of school but lots of places "pretest" on the first day in subjects ranging from math to my cert in prehospital traumatic life support. Furthermore, by your own admission in another post you haven't fought since you were a teen and you admit to never hard sparring nor competing in any measurable contact so you really have little to no experience to speak from and I think little just got on a horse and is riding out of town.

You might go back and read some more. Since I was a teen I have had probably at least 200 fights. I didn't retire completely until in my 40's. I will admit that I have only taught about 7 people. Now, if someone came to me and asked that I teach them my form of gung fu, I would not test them to see what they know. What would be the purpose in that, since they would not know anything about my form of gung fu. It would not matter if they could stand and swing at me. What you are professing is senseless. Teaching requires some sound considerations, and you have to start at the very beginning if a person is to learn the system. The student must spar with the techniques you teach him, and on day one how is he going to spar with the techniques you have taught him?
I am sorry gentlemen. You can not spar with what you do not know.

[SoCo KungFu]

I did some sparing as a teen, but from that time no.

Ok so you haven't sparred since you were a teen right. You said yourself. You did say you have fought so I did misremember that part although I have to wonder what you define as fights since you mentioned you retired from fighting, and organized "fights" can mean anything from a fight to point sparring depending who you talk to. However, you are still trying to weight in on a topic that you by your very admission have not done in from what I can tell by your posts, over 30 years at least.

[SoCo KungFu]

You might go back and read some more. Since I was a teen I have had probably at least 200 fights. I didn't retire completely until in my 40's. I will admit that I have only taught about 7 people. Now, if someone came to me and asked that I teach them my form of gung fu, I would not test them to see what they know. What would be the purpose in that, since they would not know anything about my form of gung fu. It would not matter if they could stand and swing at me. What you are professing is senseless. Teaching requires some sound considerations, and you have to start at the very beginning if a person is to learn the system. The student must spar with the techniques you teach him, and on day one how is he going to spar with the techniques you have taught him?
I am sorry gentlemen. You can not spar with what you do not know.

You haven't sparred since you were a teen. You have limited teaching experience. And we have no idea how they turned out. What you are suggesting is as ridiculous as telling someone they can't use algebra in learning calculus. You should be building off of their background, not trying to start from scratch.

As to total noobs. What are you doing the first 20 minutes they're there? It doesn't take all day to teach someone to throw a punch. They should have 2-3 workable combos in about 15 minutes of pad/bag work. Send them in to spar. And make corrections while coaching at the side and between rounds. Its not hard to do.