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View Full Version : Southern Preying Mantis - GM Henry Sue - Oz



Syn7
08-27-2010, 01:22 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0wRqR9J8WA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlInJFHw5mQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ede9OzH1HnA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAiAnMFtCxU

http://www.chinesekungfuacademy.com/


anyone know anything about this 9th degree grandmaster henry sue???

Syn7
08-28-2010, 02:19 AM
bump....







nobody???

Syn7
08-29-2010, 06:06 PM
wtf??? was there already a thread on this guy that i missed??? or what???
nobody knows this guy???

apparently they were invited to the shaolin temple in henan prov. and were formally greated by shi de yang...

here's what happened in their words:


In April 2002 Si Gung Henry Sue, six Masters and seven brown sashes were invited by the Shaolin Temple monks in the Henan Province (China), all this was organised within 4 weeks.
Si Gung Henry Sue's Sifu who resides in Hong Kong was there to greet the entourage as Representatives of the Australian Dong gong Chow Gar Tong Long Kung Fu.

Upon arriving in the Honan Province - China, they were greeted by Shi De Yang - the headmaster of Kung Fu at the Shaolin Temple, this is a great honour and a rare occasion.

A short History- The Southern Praying Mantis Kung Fu style was part of the Shaolin/Fukien temple in Fukien , during the feudal wars the temple was burnt and our Si tai tai tai Gung escaped from Mainland china to Hong Kong.
The Shaolin had not seen the Tong Long Preying Mantis style for over 150 years.

Why the journey to meet the abbots - It was one of historic importance that the monks themselves acknowledged by the reception welcoming back a long lost style to the temple exchanges of knowledge were made and significant written contributions to historical manuscripts were documented for the occasion, and a number of secretive discussions took place.

sanjuro_ronin
08-30-2010, 05:49 AM
Obviously no one gives a flying ****.
:D
Dude is SPM, and all the good, bad and ugly that goes with it, just like any other "secretive" style.

Yum Cha
08-30-2010, 05:52 AM
Two brothers, Malcolm and Henry Sue. Both good students of their SPM master, (Ip shi?) I think one specialises in Tai Gik now...

When Master retires, he chooses neither Malcolm or Henry, but Paul Brennan as his successor. Gives him all the goodies, altar, etc...

I assume for good reason, but that's their business...

Not all the same kind of people, but all top Martial Artists....one of the Sue brothers is a bit of a loose cannon sometime....the other is just mellow.

Not sure, but I think they are all in Brisbane.

Syn7
08-30-2010, 03:23 PM
have any of them ever competed in anything???

they all look pretty fast but i dont see the power in the short strikes... i notice when they are doing all that breaking, the strikes are longer than when they do techniques together... lots of slapping, for safety i guess... hard to tell how hard they hit from a video tho... but it looks like what i said previously^^^:D

MysteriousPower
08-30-2010, 04:28 PM
have any of them ever competed in anything???

they all look pretty fast but i dont see the power in the short strikes... i notice when they are doing all that breaking, the strikes are longer than when they do techniques together... lots of slapping, for safety i guess... hard to tell how hard they hit from a video tho... but it looks like what i said previously^^^:D

If they had competed there would be video of them doing so instead of this slappy hand nonsense.

Syn7
08-30-2010, 05:01 PM
even the part when they are hitting those bags... the pillars with the horizontal pad in the middle, those hanging pillar pads arent moving very much at all when they hit them... you would think a "master" would have those things flying all over the place, no???

i'd like to see how well they do against some muay thai fighter that can also wrestle... their speed is impressive, their accuracy is impressive... but the power in those strikes seem to be negligent...

im not trying to hate tho.... aesthetically its very pleasing... i want to believe its as effective as they claim... but i dunno... time and time again when i want to believe a shorthand style has power, i find out that they dont... my sisu can make a some serious power in his shorthands, he's like 70 too... he has proven it to me... unfortunately he is in the minority... but then he actually has been in a real fight before(lots) and did alotta bag work and such...

im not so sure about these guys power tho, as pretty as it is to look at...

i was jhoping somebody here would know a bit about these guys and answer some of these doubts for me... in theory, i like the hands... if they really can create devestating power in their shorthanfds, i wanna learn, coz its so pretty:D

Yum Cha
08-30-2010, 05:29 PM
even the part when they are hitting those bags... the pillars with the horizontal pad in the middle, those hanging pillar pads arent moving very much at all when they hit them... you would think a "master" would have those things flying all over the place, no???

i'd like to see how well they do against some muay thai fighter that can also wrestle... their speed is impressive, their accuracy is impressive... but the power in those strikes seem to be negligent...

im not trying to hate tho.... aesthetically its very pleasing... i want to believe its as effective as they claim... but i dunno... time and time again when i want to believe a shorthand style has power, i find out that they dont... my sisu can make a some serious power in his shorthands, he's like 70 too... he has proven it to me... unfortunately he is in the minority... but then he actually has been in a real fight before(lots) and did alotta bag work and such...

im not so sure about these guys power tho, as pretty as it is to look at...

i was jhoping somebody here would know a bit about these guys and answer some of these doubts for me... in theory, i like the hands... if they really can create devestating power in their shorthanfds, i wanna learn, coz its so pretty:D


Syn, are you training Pak Mei? Very similar to SPM, cousin styles...
I know you guys don't acknowledge this, but still, you have to consider that these guys are from a totally different world than yours.

Compete? You must be joking. Even posting videos is frowned upon. You are talking about a clutch of blokes that circled around Ip Shui, competing for the Grandmaster title upon his retirement. Brennan got it, which says something I suppose.

Of course, the Sue side has some funny commercial stuff going, that may be the reason, overstepping their boundaries in the SPM world.

Now, I don't know these guys from anything more than local gossip and having met some of their students. The Sue brothers are a lot like the Lacy brothers, one is mellow, the other a bit scary. The succession thing, going to a round-eye, was a bit controversial...

In the world of SPM, these guys are top players. If you don't think a good SPM player can fight, that's your option. But in what they do, I suppose you could call them world class...

Yum Cha
08-30-2010, 05:30 PM
i'd like to see how well they do against some muay thai fighter that can also wrestle... their speed is impressive, their accuracy is impressive... but the power in those strikes seem to be negligent...

Send a note to the developers at Street Fighter, you might get lucky in the next release....:p

MysteriousPower
08-30-2010, 06:00 PM
Syn, are you training Pak Mei? Very similar to SPM, cousin styles...
I know you guys don't acknowledge this, but still, you have to consider that these guys are from a totally different world than yours.

Compete? You must be joking. Even posting videos is frowned upon. You are talking about a clutch of blokes that circled around Ip Shui, competing for the Grandmaster title upon his retirement. Brennan got it, which says something I suppose.

Of course, the Sue side has some funny commercial stuff going, that may be the reason, overstepping their boundaries in the SPM world.

Now, I don't know these guys from anything more than local gossip and having met some of their students. The Sue brothers are a lot like the Lacy brothers, one is mellow, the other a bit scary. The succession thing, going to a round-eye, was a bit controversial...

In the world of SPM, these guys are top players. If you don't think a good SPM player can fight, that's your option. But in what they do, I suppose you could call them world class...

The secret world they are from is their way of ACTUALLY testing techniques against real resisting people who are not spinning their hands around. They would get killed in a competition against someone who studies striking and wrestling. You states that what they do is world class...but they never do this in sparring and against other styles. And for those that say they do spar realistically have no video proof...which kind of makes it non-existent.

Yum Cha
08-30-2010, 06:18 PM
The secret world they are from is their way of ACTUALLY testing techniques against real resisting people who are not spinning their hands around. They would get killed in a competition against someone who studies striking and wrestling. You states that what they do is world class...but they never do this in sparring and against other styles. And for those that say they do spar realistically have no video proof...which kind of makes it non-existent.


Yawn......

TenTigers
08-30-2010, 06:37 PM
And for those that say they do spar realistically have no video proof...which to me, kind of makes it non-existent.

there. fixed it for ya.
:D

Syn7
08-30-2010, 09:06 PM
Syn, are you training Pak Mei? Very similar to SPM, cousin styles...
I know you guys don't acknowledge this, but still, you have to consider that these guys are from a totally different world than yours.

Compete? You must be joking. Even posting videos is frowned upon. You are talking about a clutch of blokes that circled around Ip Shui, competing for the Grandmaster title upon his retirement. Brennan got it, which says something I suppose.

Of course, the Sue side has some funny commercial stuff going, that may be the reason, overstepping their boundaries in the SPM world.

Now, I don't know these guys from anything more than local gossip and having met some of their students. The Sue brothers are a lot like the Lacy brothers, one is mellow, the other a bit scary. The succession thing, going to a round-eye, was a bit controversial...

In the world of SPM, these guys are top players. If you don't think a good SPM player can fight, that's your option. But in what they do, I suppose you could call them world class...

yeah i really dont know anything about these guys, all i say is based on website and video... but thats why i posted this, so i could get edumacated...

yeah we aknowledge the relationship with SPM... im clc bak mei... we are related to all the hakka styles... east river... li gar... they are all cousins and lung ying is like a brother... there are alot of cross style influnces going on there in the clc lines... but any info you have on bak mei, im all about learning bak mei right now so by all means tell me everything... articles, anything... i read alot...
anyways...
i do see some similarities forsure... alot off short fist have similar principles, regardless of application... but i notice some differences, and i dont mean the obvious differences... i mean like how we generate our power, for one...
and we arent really supposed to talk about it either... its like an unwritten code thing... you know what i mean... so far ive been sort of vague about my style, specifically, other than what i said here...

think about this tho, there are like7 masters under the GM... so there must be sattelite schools, no??? they would all have students... and out of all those students you would think atleast one of them would get the urge to put on the gloves... kickboxing, mma, boxing, some mantis style competition... something, anything... no??? cause, i mean, its a really big school... from what i can telll these guys have a huge operation down there... but i dunno... yall tell me, its why i asked... thanx for the words...

Yum Cha
08-30-2010, 09:40 PM
Yea, SPM interests me too, specifically as a comparison to see how they achieve the same results as Pak Mei in a given situation.

Their training is different, yet the hand is so similar....there's something to that...

Your question about the kickboxing/competing.... While it is as ancient as any other combat, and Mui Thai and other hard hitting sports, its popular incarnation is rather new, going back to the Bruce Lee era, when the kickers changed from point to full contact, what sometime in the late 60's? Ramping up a few years, wasn't until the 70's early 80's you'd be banging hard at a common level. 30-40 years...

Its a young man's game too, 20-35 years old....

A good deal of the old school guys circles never intercepted that circle.

Too busy collecting outstanding debts, providing security for 'meetings' and generally controlling turf. Ok, well maybe not all, but you probably understand what I'm getting at.

I think part of this is a generational thing, and part is a cultural thing. I once asked this old Chinese master if he ever had a fight. He smiled, rolled up his arm and showed me where the Japanese shot him...

Syn7
08-30-2010, 10:23 PM
Yea, SPM interests me too, specifically as a comparison to see how they achieve the same results as Pak Mei in a given situation.

Their training is different, yet the hand is so similar....there's something to that...

Your question about the kickboxing/competing.... While it is as ancient as any other combat, and Mui Thai and other hard hitting sports, its popular incarnation is rather new, going back to the Bruce Lee era, when the kickers changed from point to full contact, what sometime in the late 60's? Ramping up a few years, wasn't until the 70's early 80's you'd be banging hard at a common level. 30-40 years...

Its a young man's game too, 20-35 years old....

A good deal of the old school guys circles never intercepted that circle.

Too busy collecting outstanding debts, providing security for 'meetings' and generally controlling turf. Ok, well maybe not all, but you probably understand what I'm getting at.

I think part of this is a generational thing, and part is a cultural thing. I once asked this old Chinese master if he ever had a fight. He smiled, rolled up his arm and showed me where the Japanese shot him...

well yeah, if its combat tested on the street then that could be even better experience than the ring forsure... aslong as its against quality opponents... not just drunk bar scum and bums, u know what i mean??? like the HK triad tested styles are dope, cause they fought against other styles all the time aswell as yopur standard collection rough up... and then theres all the military influence and policing... bak mei is FRESH... but nowadays they must have alot of fruiit on their GM Sue SPM tree branch and you'd think one would compete... but yeah, im interested in the history forsure...

Syn7
08-30-2010, 10:26 PM
i also did google searches and whatnot... didnt get much that i didnt get off their site... lots of redundant info and message board bull****... so anyone with any more info, lay it down for me... pretty please... :D:cool:

Yum Cha
08-30-2010, 11:19 PM
I'm sure there are SPM trained fighters, Sanjuro comes to mind, but unlike CLF or Pak Hok, when you put gloves on a short power fighter, you might as well cut their hands off.

So, you adjust, accommodate and get on with it. That's why you'll have trouble finding a good SPM fighter in the ring that looks anything different....

There are some Pak Mei sparring vids up that make me cringe when I think people out there think that's what the style looks like...

And when it comes to street work using martial arts, that's who you fight, bums, thieves, drunks, hotheads..... Sure you'll come up against hard men, I'm sure, but that's what cohorts, clubs and tasers are for....

Oh, and good luck finding some vids, if you do, send the links on!

sanjuro_ronin
08-31-2010, 05:55 AM
When I was SAW SPM, ( outside of Sifu Paul Whitrods Chow gar) it looked juts like that, matter of fact, it could have been those clips, I don't recall.
I was not impressed.
I had seen it all before, very "american kenpo" like.
The videos that I saw of Sifu Whitrod was NOT like that, you could see the power in his moves, but again, no sparring just "dissecting the corpse" as Bruce Lee used to say.
Then I got first hand exposure to SPM from my Hung Kuen sifu's brother.
It was fast, that;s for sure, but he never hit more then 3-shot combos, they were full force and full bodied strikes, never seen him "tap" or "slap", but then again he never demoed SPM, he always did it "right".
His lineage is from Macao but because of his brothers HK infulence, it has a very different look to it but in all honesty, I have only seen the SPM as we see on youtube and from a few videos that are public and some few that are private.

How well does it work VS MT for example?
Well, to be honest, the biggets problem with SPM is the same with the majority of short hand systems like WC, Bak Mei, Lung Ying and so forth:
Isolated and limited sparring.
Most of these guys never learn how to use their SPM outside of class and tend to develop it in highly specififc ways VS itself, in other words:
SPm guys spend all their time fighting SPM guys and as such are limited in what they have been exposed to.
One of the things my Sifu;s brother loved was how I brought something different to the ball game, he loves testing his students SPM vs my boxing or MT or MMA.
It was a very big eye opening experience for them.
He made quite a few changes accordingly.

MysteriousPower
08-31-2010, 06:42 AM
When I was SAW SPM, ( outside of Sifu Paul Whitrods Chow gar) it looked juts like that, matter of fact, it could have been those clips, I don't recall.
I was not impressed.
I had seen it all before, very "american kenpo" like.
The videos that I saw of Sifu Whitrod was NOT like that, you could see the power in his moves, but again, no sparring just "dissecting the corpse" as Bruce Lee used to say.
Then I got first hand exposure to SPM from my Hung Kuen sifu's brother.
It was fast, that;s for sure, but he never hit more then 3-shot combos, they were full force and full bodied strikes, never seen him "tap" or "slap", but then again he never demoed SPM, he always did it "right".
His lineage is from Macao but because of his brothers HK infulence, it has a very different look to it but in all honesty, I have only seen the SPM as we see on youtube and from a few videos that are public and some few that are private.

How well does it work VS MT for example?
Well, to be honest, the biggets problem with SPM is the same with the majority of short hand systems like WC, Bak Mei, Lung Ying and so forth:
Isolated and limited sparring.
Most of these guys never learn how to use their SPM outside of class and tend to develop it in highly specififc ways VS itself, in other words:
SPm guys spend all their time fighting SPM guys and as such are limited in what they have been exposed to.
One of the things my Sifu;s brother loved was how I brought something different to the ball game, he loves testing his students SPM vs my boxing or MT or MMA.
It was a very big eye opening experience for them.
He made quite a few changes accordingly.


Thank God there is someone with common sense on this board! I love you, Sanjuro. The great thing about his posts is that he does not spout the same old, "They are too old to compete but were young enough to be 'enforcers' at gangster meetings, do not spar with people outside their style because they are too deadly, and keep their fighting techniques a secret."

I guess it is easy for some of you to make fun of my posts instead of using them as a window into deficient training methods that do not produce well rounded fighters.

sanjuro_ronin
08-31-2010, 07:01 AM
Dude, you can't be the extremist when it comes to TCMA or any TMA, you can't throw the baby out with the bathwater, know what I mean?
TMA have something to offer everyone, each person needs to find out what that is for themselves.
Personally I couldn't care less what someone did in their past or who well they can make their MA work for THEM because they are not ME.
I am me and I NEED to make the MA work for me.
People always forget that.
Who cares if WSL kicked ass with one hand or if Lam Sang could kill a man with his pinky, unless YOU can do that same it is irrelevant.
A good teacher is some one that can take their system and adapt it to their student and HELP the student make it work for himself.
Systems are irrelevant, they are as good or as bad as YOU make them.
I have had the honour of being the demo dummy for many a good TCMA and TJAM teacher and I have felt their speed and power and I say this:
I can count on ONE HAND those that could translate that skill into a "real" fight.

MysteriousPower
08-31-2010, 07:24 AM
Dude, you can't be the extremist when it comes to TCMA or any TMA, you can't throw the baby out with the bathwater, know what I mean?
TMA have something to offer everyone, each person needs to find out what that is for themselves.
Personally I couldn't care less what someone did in their past or who well they can make their MA work for THEM because they are not ME.
I am me and I NEED to make the MA work for me.
People always forget that.
Who cares if WSL kicked ass with one hand or if Lam Sang could kill a man with his pinky, unless YOU can do that same it is irrelevant.
A good teacher is some one that can take their system and adapt it to their student and HELP the student make it work for himself.
Systems are irrelevant, they are as good or as bad as YOU make them.
I have had the honour of being the demo dummy for many a good TCMA and TJAM teacher and I have felt their speed and power and I say this:
I can count on ONE HAND those that could translate that skill into a "real" fight.

Agreed. Everyone needs to find what they are looking for in a martial art. But that person cannot talk about the fighting prowess of said martial art if they are not training that. If you want to do qi gong, exercise, and think it is cool then that is fine. But do not get defensive when someone brings up deficiencies in training and then pretend to be a master killer.

I do not think that many martial arts teachers would be taken seriously if they admitted that they were mostly doing it for: cultural identity, because it is cool and different from MMA, health, self cultivation. So they need to make remarks about the DEADLINESS of past masters, how much more EFFICIENT this training is compared to sparring, and bringing up random aspects of their pasts that suggests that they sparred/fought and still do.

Syn7
08-31-2010, 11:16 AM
I do not think that many martial arts teachers would be taken seriously if they admitted that they were mostly doing it for: cultural identity, because it is cool and different from MMA, health, self cultivation. So they need to make remarks about the DEADLINESS of past masters, how much more EFFICIENT this training is compared to sparring, and bringing up random aspects of their pasts that suggests that they sparred/fought and still do.

im willing to bet that 9 out of 10 so called "masters" in north america have not even been in a real street fight with a quality opponent... that combination rush of adrenaline, fear, exitement, unpredictability, not knowing if this cat has friends comming soon or if he has a knife etc etc, that just cant be simulated even in the fullest contact non glove or pads competition...

and i think 1 in 10 is being generous... i'm talking about all styles that claim self defense, so wrestling isnt included, or any other art that is taught specifically as a sport and has no street tactics... like a style that trains specifically within the rules of said sport doesnt count in my numbers...

Syn7
08-31-2010, 11:48 AM
at 3:50 of the first vid i posted you see him do a trippin neck crank thang, im sure they have a fancy name like "47 heavens blazing palm cantelope plum sweeping titan face removal technique #174", but anyways. when he steps inside he does this lil kick to the back of the opponents rear leg and then trips... there are so many little hits like that and i love that, BUT are they really effective??? he hasnt any significant power in that kick, even for a demo, and im wondering.....are these guys like purists that dont train or go outside of their school at all when it comes to mantis? im sure they do demos... im asking i guess, do they only train with eachother in mantis style??? i find thats how it is with alot of schools... good schools, good styles... how would it stand to some giant that just came in fist first and 220lbs behind it... it sure is pretty tho... i imagine you would have to be pretty good to overcome any significant brute force type of attack... i would love to see what would happen if a few generations made an offshoot of this style for the ring...???:) im not the one to do it, by any means, but you can see the potential... it will be interesting in 30 years when we can look back and see how much its changed over just our own lifetimes... with the whole sport fighting comming back into style in american pop culture with the new fancy "mma" name people are trying new things and comming up with some pretty inovative ways to win cagefights... there are alot of carbon copies out there forsure... but there are some real originals... now that its a sport in our culture i think we'll see alot of MA being adapted for the ring or cage...

Yum Cha
08-31-2010, 03:58 PM
... how would it stand to some giant that just came in fist first and 220lbs behind it... it sure is pretty tho... i imagine you would have to be pretty good to overcome any significant brute force type of attack...

I think this is a good point, and quite relevant.

That's why I (100kg) love to train my brothers (60-80kg), by throwing western stuff at them, with escalating levels of contact, depending.

I keep telling them how lucky they are, but they don't seem to appreciate it somehow...

Syn7
08-31-2010, 05:01 PM
I think this is a good point, and quite relevant.

That's why I (100kg) love to train my brothers (60-80kg), by throwing western stuff at them, with escalating levels of contact, depending.

I keep telling them how lucky they are, but they don't seem to appreciate it somehow...

Word!

they should kiss your a s s everytime you punch them out... ungrateful lil b a s t a r d s!!!:D

jo
09-01-2010, 06:25 PM
If you look at the techniques shown in the OP's videos, you will see that almost ALL of the head/throat strikes would be ILLEGAL in "competitions".

At least these guys are working at an actual striking distance, and they are getting used to facial contact.

Just sayin'

-jo

Yum Cha
09-01-2010, 07:08 PM
Ok, you guys know a little bit about or are interested in short hand styles. Jo commented on getting into striking distance. You always see it demoed statically, with just arms or maybe a bit of shuffling.

The whole secret to making short hand work is stance. Not the holding of a given stance, but the ability to combine it all together into a dynamic moving platform. Footwork.

This is what you never see in the demos. You see they have the weapons, maybe even brutal weapons, but as Sanjuro remarked, can they take them to battle?

Or, maybe a better question is, can they teach you to take them into battle?

MysteriousPower
09-02-2010, 06:07 AM
Ok, you guys know a little bit about or are interested in short hand styles. Jo commented on getting into striking distance. You always see it demoed statically, with just arms or maybe a bit of shuffling.

The whole secret to making short hand work is stance. Not the holding of a given stance, but the ability to combine it all together into a dynamic moving platform. Footwork.

This is what you never see in the demos. You see they have the weapons, maybe even brutal weapons, but as Sanjuro remarked, can they take them to battle?

Or, maybe a better question is, can they teach you to take them into battle?

Not possible. Any other questions?

sanjuro_ronin
09-02-2010, 07:37 AM
Ok, you guys know a little bit about or are interested in short hand styles. Jo commented on getting into striking distance. You always see it demoed statically, with just arms or maybe a bit of shuffling.

The whole secret to making short hand work is stance. Not the holding of a given stance, but the ability to combine it all together into a dynamic moving platform. Footwork.

This is what you never see in the demos. You see they have the weapons, maybe even brutal weapons, but as Sanjuro remarked, can they take them to battle?

Or, maybe a better question is, can they teach you to take them into battle?

See, here is the thing, when you spend all your time fighting a certain profile of opponent, in the case of most SPM guys it is other spm guys, then you get good at closing in ON THEM, it is the same problem with WC for example.
Stances are irrelevant, they serve a purpose and must be modififed and used accordingly.
Jo Mentioned that the strikes were aimed at all the illegal targets, well, I have no idea what he means because, in a ring match, you pretty much hit where you hit, it lands where it lands.
We've seen neck, throat, back of the head, back of neck, eyes, etc, all getting hit in competition.
Fact is, sure there are rules about WHERE to hit, doesn't change the fact that blows land where they land.
Besides that, if a person can routinely hit specific limited targets in a fight, then when he has MORE options, the better it will be for him.

Sardinkahnikov
09-02-2010, 10:46 AM
In my opinion, what stances teach you are the "feeling" you need to get in order to a) use fast footwork and b) be in position to attack or defend. I think that's specially true with styles like Wing Chun, that use "battering ram" kind of punches and kicks. You will certainly need to use a flexible stance, but even then you'll get that "power generation turned on" feeling.

Yum Cha
09-02-2010, 03:57 PM
See, here is the thing, when you spend all your time fighting a certain profile of opponent, in the case of most SPM guys it is other spm guys, then you get good at closing in ON THEM, it is the same problem with WC for example.


Yes, the same is true of Pak Mei. You can get used to fighting your own style.
You practice your stuff, and learn how to apply the style first. Once you get to a good enough level, you have to try it against other stuff, preferably the kind of stuff you are going to run into on the street...

I think you have to put on gloves and throw western stuff at your guys if you want them to survive, for sure. But, you also have to make sure they don't revert to brawling, and maintain the path. It has to be trained, it doesn't just happen.


Stances are irrelevant, they serve a purpose and must be modififed and used accordingly.

You and I are going to differ here, superficially, and I know why. Lots of people think of stance as static. I don't, footwork is just a series of transitions between movement and stability, even for a fraction of a second. Stance is the noun, footwork is the verb. I can't speak for every style, but. I love chasing cicadas...

I first noticed watching Ali in slo-mo. Dance like a butterfly, right....can't touch this! You look, he steps in, goes flat-foot, locks and hits, then lifts and moves....in milliseconds. No...footwork is GOD, IMHO.

Its the same as training anything. You take it in steps, deconstruct and reconstruct. Lots of trad guys know how to grab a stance on a gym floor, or how to deliver a combo to an opponent, but where the training lacks is in elevating that training into the ad-lib, dynamic situation of sparring, or other pressure testing. Its not a fault of the style, simply the instruction.

And, the hardest part is learning to use your new lessons, even in the beginning when it is clumsy and unwieldy, instead of reverting to what you've done all along, especially when somebody is ringing your bell....


Jo Mentioned that the strikes were aimed at all the illegal targets, well, I have no idea what he means because, in a ring match, you pretty much hit where you hit, it lands where it lands.
We've seen neck, throat, back of the head, back of neck, eyes, etc, all getting hit in competition.
Fact is, sure there are rules about WHERE to hit, doesn't change the fact that blows land where they land.
Besides that, if a person can routinely hit specific limited targets in a fight, then when he has MORE options, the better it will be for him.

I'll add, target choices are important, but being able to hit them is more important. You end up getting favorites, and growing the list, IMHO. If you can punch the eye, you can gouge it too, if you can arm bar, you can break an elbow, If you can knee the belly, you can knee the groin - first challenge is to hit what you want, then you get to worry about your deadly techniques...

Yum Cha
09-02-2010, 03:58 PM
Not possible. Any other questions?

Seen my sig, genius?

MysteriousPower
09-02-2010, 09:25 PM
Seen my sig, genius?

I seen your sig. It was a huge stroke to my ego to know that you value my quote so much. Thank you for immortalizing me. Now go eat dim sum.

Frost
09-03-2010, 04:33 AM
See, here is the thing, when you spend all your time fighting a certain profile of opponent, in the case of most SPM guys it is other spm guys, then you get good at closing in ON THEM, it is the same problem with WC for example.
Stances are irrelevant, they serve a purpose and must be modififed and used accordingly.
Jo Mentioned that the strikes were aimed at all the illegal targets, well, I have no idea what he means because, in a ring match, you pretty much hit where you hit, it lands where it lands.
We've seen neck, throat, back of the head, back of neck, eyes, etc, all getting hit in competition.
Fact is, sure there are rules about WHERE to hit, doesn't change the fact that blows land where they land.
Besides that, if a person can routinely hit specific limited targets in a fight, then when he has MORE options, the better it will be for him.

Ronin raises some interesting points, especially about the hakka arts being very much designed and tested against other similar arts, I wonder Paul do you think you could have made your SPM work with just your training in hung gar, or do you feel its because of all the fighting you did in your karate/thai and boxing days that enables you to make it work?

I guess my point is I know arts like Bak mei and SPM were often see as finishing arts, indeed I believe CLC would only take students from other arts (I could be wrong) and that a foundation was often needed in a powerful proven fighting art like hungar, choyleefut, mok gar etc so you could understand what you would be facing and have a good foundation and experience in fighting/power generation before training in them.

Do you feel that these days a foundation in a more relevant full contact art that you are likely to actually face: Thai, boxing, kick boxing etc is needed rather than a background in a Chinese art that might not include that much full contact sparring and which these days you are unlikely to actually face in the street?

My personal experience is that the hakka and close range southern arts I know are not used as my primary arts, but added to my core arts when needed. I use them in conjunction with the Thai/grappling I know and only in specific situations, and I can make them work in those situations (close-in in clinch range or as we break from that range) because of my other training and experiences, I can use short range ging, or the pump action of yung ling at that range because my Thai and boxing allows me to close the distance, and my grappling allows me to control that range as I use these moves, but I would love to hear the experience of someone who has competed in various disciplines and trained extensively in both western and eastern arts

sanjuro_ronin
09-03-2010, 05:37 AM
You and I are going to differ here, superficially, and I know why. Lots of people think of stance as static. I don't, footwork is just a series of transitions between movement and stability, even for a fraction of a second. Stance is the noun, footwork is the verb. I can't speak for every style, but. I love chasing cicadas...

That is why I said that stances are irrelevant, because to the majority that is what they are,static, so I keep away for using words like stances and rooting and so forth.

sanjuro_ronin
09-03-2010, 05:43 AM
Ronin raises some interesting points, especially about the hakka arts being very much designed and tested against other similar arts, I wonder Paul do you think you could have made your SPM work with just your training in hung gar, or do you feel its because of all the fighting you did in your karate/thai and boxing days that enables you to make it work?

I guess my point is I know arts like Bak mei and SPM were often see as finishing arts, indeed I believe CLC would only take students from other arts (I could be wrong) and that a foundation was often needed in a powerful proven fighting art like hungar, choyleefut, mok gar etc so you could understand what you would be facing and have a good foundation and experience in fighting/power generation before training in them.

Do you feel that these days a foundation in a more relevant full contact art that you are likely to actually face: Thai, boxing, kick boxing etc is needed rather than a background in a Chinese art that might not include that much full contact sparring and which these days you are unlikely to actually face in the street?

My personal experience is that the hakka and close range southern arts I know are not used as my primary arts, but added to my core arts when needed. I use them in conjunction with the Thai/grappling I know and only in specific situations, and I can make them work in those situations (close-in in clinch range or as we break from that range) because of my other training and experiences, I can use short range ging, or the pump action of yung ling at that range because my Thai and boxing allows me to close the distance, and my grappling allows me to control that range as I use these moves, but I would love to hear the experience of someone who has competed in various disciplines and trained extensively in both western and eastern arts

I probably could h ave made the SPM I was taught work ONLY with the Hung Kuen I knew and I think that, while SPM is a finishing system, it can work as a stand alone PROVIDED it is trained VS other systems and the practioners modify it accordingly.

I have learned to apply the short hand not only in close but from MY typical striking range ( which tends to be closer than most as it is anyways).
I really have to make a video of it, the video explains so much better...

In a nutshell, in boxing we get short power by bring back our elbows and torquing our bodies and, typiclaly, keeping the strike "circular" liek a hook or uppercut.
In SPM we keep the elbows "in front" of the body and that makes it a whole different ball game, but only on the surface.
The body torque is "the same", the difference is that in western boxing the short strikes are PULLED by the torque ( elbow is behind or beside the body) and in SPM the strike is PUSHED by the torque since the elbow is in front.

Not sure if I made it clear...

Frost
09-03-2010, 10:09 AM
I probably could h ave made the SPM I was taught work ONLY with the Hung Kuen I knew and I think that, while SPM is a finishing system, it can work as a stand alone PROVIDED it is trained VS other systems and the practioners modify it accordingly.

I have learned to apply the short hand not only in close but from MY typical striking range ( which tends to be closer than most as it is anyways).
I really have to make a video of it, the video explains so much better...

In a nutshell, in boxing we get short power by bring back our elbows and torquing our bodies and, typiclaly, keeping the strike "circular" liek a hook or uppercut.
In SPM we keep the elbows "in front" of the body and that makes it a whole different ball game, but only on the surface.
The body torque is "the same", the difference is that in western boxing the short strikes are PULLED by the torque ( elbow is behind or beside the body) and in SPM the strike is PUSHED by the torque since the elbow is in front.

Not sure if I made it clear...

you made it very clear and and very well thought out

Jorge
09-03-2010, 10:50 AM
In a nutshell, in boxing we get short power by bring back our elbows



Then it's not short power, because your elbow is being drawn back. I do understand what you mean though. I agree the only way to make it work is by fighting other styles, but I would say that's true for every style and not just Hakka. You have to learn to train all angles.:)

Could you please put up a vid. Your last vid on the PE fist was good and informative. Thanks for sharing!

Bless,

Buby

sanjuro_ronin
09-03-2010, 11:17 AM
Then it's not short power, because your elbow is being drawn back. I do understand what you mean though. I agree the only way to make it work is by fighting other styles, but I would say that's true for every style and not just Hakka. You have to learn to train all angles.:)

Could you please put up a vid. Your last vid on the PE fist was good and informative. Thanks for sharing!

Bless,

Buby

Actually, short power - short distance power, is an issueince of force in a limited distance.
See, what many do to demo short power, like BL did too, is pretty much almost extent their arm and make contact or "just contact" enough the target with their fist and then "jerk" the remain extension of their arm into a "short strike".
BUT that is NOT how it works in practical terms.
You don't issue short power that way, semi-extend arms will get you KTFO since you are all open.
Practical application of short power is done with the elbows IN, at our chest or just by them, hand sup guarding our chin AND in the opponents "face".
That is from where you deliver practical short power.
Practical short power comes from/at the beginning of the strike, not the end.

Syn7
09-03-2010, 12:12 PM
I probably could h ave made the SPM I was taught work ONLY with the Hung Kuen I knew and I think that, while SPM is a finishing system, it can work as a stand alone PROVIDED it is trained VS other systems and the practioners modify it accordingly.

I have learned to apply the short hand not only in close but from MY typical striking range ( which tends to be closer than most as it is anyways).
I really have to make a video of it, the video explains so much better...

In a nutshell, in boxing we get short power by bring back our elbows and torquing our bodies and, typiclaly, keeping the strike "circular" liek a hook or uppercut.
In SPM we keep the elbows "in front" of the body and that makes it a whole different ball game, but only on the surface.
The body torque is "the same", the difference is that in western boxing the short strikes are PULLED by the torque ( elbow is behind or beside the body) and in SPM the strike is PUSHED by the torque since the elbow is in front.

Not sure if I made it clear...


no doubt... if you dont train against other styles, especially ones that loop from the outside like boxing can, you will be picked apart from the outside and if you came inside on a boxer for the first time with 40 halfpower strikes you will feel the wrath of captain uppercut real fast...

Frost
09-03-2010, 12:12 PM
Actually, short power - short distance power, is an issueince of force in a limited distance.
See, what many do to demo short power, like BL did too, is pretty much almost extent their arm and make contact or "just contact" enough the target with their fist and then "jerk" the remain extension of their arm into a "short strike".
BUT that is NOT how it works in practical terms.
You don't issue short power that way, semi-extend arms will get you KTFO since you are all open.
Practical application of short power is done with the elbows IN, at our chest or just by them, hand sup guarding our chin AND in the opponents "face".
That is from where you deliver practical short power.
Practical short power comes from/at the beginning of the strike, not the end.

oh stop making so much sense its annoying :)

sanjuro_ronin
09-03-2010, 12:38 PM
LMAO !!
Thanks, but the video, if I ever get it done, will be better in explaining it.

TenTigers
09-03-2010, 12:46 PM
Actually, short power - short distance power, is an issueince of force in a limited distance.
See, what many do to demo short power, like BL did too, is pretty much almost extent their arm and make contact or "just contact" enough the target with their fist and then "jerk" the remain extension of their arm into a "short strike".
BUT that is NOT how it works in practical terms.
You don't issue short power that way, semi-extend arms will get you KTFO since you are all open.
Practical application of short power is done with the elbows IN, at our chest or just by them, hand sup guarding our chin AND in the opponents "face".
That is from where you deliver practical short power.
Practical short power comes from/at the beginning of the strike, not the end.

yes and no. Short power in Hakka Kuen was designed so that the practitioner can strike from wherever his hand happens to be-a neccesity in close fighting. If his hand intercepts a strike, (blocking,covering, whatever)it strikes right from that point-at any angle-elbow up, down, sideways, straight, curved, rising, falling,etc.
The idea is to be able to connect to your body and develop full body power.

sanjuro_ronin
09-03-2010, 01:13 PM
yes and no. Short power in Hakka Kuen was designed so that the practitioner can strike from wherever his hand happens to be-a neccesity in close fighting. If his hand intercepts a strike, (blocking,covering, whatever)it strikes right from that point-at any angle-elbow up, down, sideways, straight, curved, rising, falling,etc.
The idea is to be able to connect to your body and develop full body power.

Actually then its not "yes and no", "it yes, but lets not forget.."
:D

Frost
09-03-2010, 01:38 PM
LMAO !!
Thanks, but the video, if I ever get it done, will be better in explaining it.

the video would be great but it fits perfectly with what i have been thinking about and testing, after 7 years pure MMA and boxing i have come to see where and how i can fit in my previous hakka arts (as well as my CLF and hung gar), and your thoughts really help me see i am going in the right direction :) now if i can only make enough time in the week to go and visit my old hakka teacher :(

Yum Cha
09-03-2010, 05:41 PM
Is this what you are talking about? Its at the end.

http://www.youtube.com/user/TodaiLeung#p/u/4/h79sQ795Crc

Jorge
09-03-2010, 06:40 PM
yes and no. Short power in Hakka Kuen was designed so that the practitioner can strike from wherever his hand happens to be-a neccesity in close fighting. If his hand intercepts a strike, (blocking,covering, whatever)it strikes right from that point-at any angle-elbow up, down, sideways, straight, curved, rising, falling,etc.
The idea is to be able to connect to your body and develop full body power.

Sanjuro,


The above is exactly how I learned it.

I dont fight with my hands fully extended, neither should any short hand/hakka player, because its incorrect posture. You shouldn't hold your hands to far nor to close to your face, at least its what I've been taught and it has worked just fine for me. I dont play the open guard, but my boy swears by it and I've seen this dude lace MFs. Funny thing is, he's never had a day of training.LOLOL

I understand what you are saying...All I'm saying is that the short power in hakka arts, the hands shoots from wherever it is. There is no need to draw or bring the elbows back to my side in order for me to strike with ging/full body power. As a matter of fact one of the things that hakka/ short hand sifus look for when people are doing the performances, is if their elbows are exposed from behind. If that makes any sense...LOLOLOL

The Bruce Lee Demo was a push. Real short power/ fa ging hurts like b!tch.:)

MysteriousPower
09-04-2010, 09:40 AM
I probably could h ave made the SPM I was taught work ONLY with the Hung Kuen I knew and I think that, while SPM is a finishing system, it can work as a stand alone PROVIDED it is trained VS other systems and the practioners modify it accordingly.

I have learned to apply the short hand not only in close but from MY typical striking range ( which tends to be closer than most as it is anyways).
I really have to make a video of it, the video explains so much better...

In a nutshell, in boxing we get short power by bring back our elbows and torquing our bodies and, typiclaly, keeping the strike "circular" liek a hook or uppercut.
In SPM we keep the elbows "in front" of the body and that makes it a whole different ball game, but only on the surface.
The body torque is "the same", the difference is that in western boxing the short strikes are PULLED by the torque ( elbow is behind or beside the body) and in SPM the strike is PUSHED by the torque since the elbow is in front.

Not sure if I made it clear...

The fact that your tcma training was combined with sport oriented training is telling in that you did not make the spm work with hung kuen alone. This is not a derogatory remark. But who knows if you would have been able to make it work(were you talking about in the ring or in a street fight) had you not had training in the sport oriented styles. If someone JUST trained spm the way it is trained in all these youtube videos they would never survive in an mma match.

TenTigers
09-04-2010, 10:10 AM
Actually then its not "yes and no", "it yes, but lets not forget.."
:D
point well-taken.

Violent Designs
09-04-2010, 05:22 PM
The fact that your tcma training was combined with sport oriented training is telling in that you did not make the spm work with hung kuen alone. This is not a derogatory remark. But who knows if you would have been able to make it work(were you talking about in the ring or in a street fight) had you not had training in the sport oriented styles. If someone JUST trained spm the way it is trained in all these youtube videos they would never survive in an mma match.

Perhaps you are right.

sanjuro_ronin
09-07-2010, 07:32 AM
Is this what you are talking about? Its at the end.

http://www.youtube.com/user/TodaiLeung#p/u/4/h79sQ795Crc

Yeah, that is a typical demo when the power is applied with a 3/4 extension, something that tends to not be very practical in terms of striking, though the video shows it more as applied to pushing which is ok.

sanjuro_ronin
09-07-2010, 07:35 AM
Sanjuro,


The above is exactly how I learned it.

I dont fight with my hands fully extended, neither should any short hand/hakka player, because its incorrect posture. You shouldn't hold your hands to far nor to close to your face, at least its what I've been taught and it has worked just fine for me. I dont play the open guard, but my boy swears by it and I've seen this dude lace MFs. Funny thing is, he's never had a day of training.LOLOL

I understand what you are saying...All I'm saying is that the short power in hakka arts, the hands shoots from wherever it is. There is no need to draw or bring the elbows back to my side in order for me to strike with ging/full body power. As a matter of fact one of the things that hakka/ short hand sifus look for when people are doing the performances, is if their elbows are exposed from behind. If that makes any sense...LOLOLOL

The Bruce Lee Demo was a push. Real short power/ fa ging hurts like b!tch.:)

Here is the thing, MOST demos as just that, pushes and here is the other thing, when was the last time you saw short power done in an actual match?
Yes, the above is a fine description for what one TRIES to acheive, but when was the last time you say it done? for real, not demo, not class, not drilling, for real ( The opponent NOT standing still and NOT just throwing out oenm shot but truly trying to KO someone).

sanjuro_ronin
09-07-2010, 07:38 AM
The fact that your tcma training was combined with sport oriented training is telling in that you did not make the spm work with hung kuen alone. This is not a derogatory remark. But who knows if you would have been able to make it work(were you talking about in the ring or in a street fight) had you not had training in the sport oriented styles. If someone JUST trained spm the way it is trained in all these youtube videos they would never survive in an mma match.

Dude, I can make that statement because the sport systems were there BEFORE the SPM.
But in regards to this:

If someone JUST trained spm the way it is trained in all these youtube videos they would never survive in an mma match.
I well say this:
What I have seen from the SPM guys I know and the few Bak Mei guys I know ( that is the extent of short hand guys I know and have fought), they were NOT able to deal with the MMA problem when I presented it to them.
That said, with training most were able to find the solution.

jo
09-07-2010, 02:04 PM
It sucks when a SPM/Hakka player has to forget about striking to the back of the head, the temples, the eyes, the neck, the throat just because none of that happens in the MMA universe when a guy "shoots".

-jo

Yum Cha
09-07-2010, 02:12 PM
Sanjuro, I take umbrance! That is not a 'typical' demo, that is an 'exceptional' demo!

I can just say, I've pushed people on the street like that twice. Once at a massive outdoor event and the aggressive jerk was on my nerves and I really had to get him out of my space, the other time, a guy was in my face - and I just removed him for both our safety.

Both times I could feel their rib cage compress and hear the wheeze and see the 'bug eye', both times they went down, both times they got up and went away... granted, sprouting foul language...

It just took the fight out of them, so, hey, I'm counting that...

To me, the single most significant issue is the telegraph, or rather lack. Going from stop to go without any twitch, breath or positioning. If you can do that, you can make Hakka boxing work.



Oh yea, Fung ahn on the end of it helps.

Syn7
09-07-2010, 02:19 PM
i think hakka arts are a pefect fit into a well rounded mma fighter... in general, i think the short fist styles will work into mma hybrids a bit better...
the 4ounce "grappling" gloves pose a problem that is most annoying, but most do-able... man i hate those gloves... any gloves... its so annoying grappling with somebody who constantly neutralizes your wrist by holding the gloves. or making it so i cant pull my hands out becoz of the gloves, something that would be easy without gloves becomes a nightmare with them... you arent supposed to hold the gloves, but people do all the time... and even if a ref says stop, usually the damage is done... like when you have somebody up in a HUGE double and they grab the ring or cage on the way down... what couldve been a ko slam turns into a luckluster cluster f u c k scamble for position, all becoz they cheated... and unless they do it like 218767 times they dont lose points... annoying.... rant... anyways.......

anyone know anything about vagabond/wanderers??? i dont see much about it... its an east river thang, no???

sanjuro_ronin
09-08-2010, 07:21 AM
It sucks when a SPM/Hakka player has to forget about striking to the back of the head, the temples, the eyes, the neck, the throat just because none of that happens in the MMA universe when a guy "shoots".

-jo

Dude, those were valid targets in Vale Tudo for years, have you forgotten?
Still are outside of the UFC and N.American MMA rules.

sanjuro_ronin
09-08-2010, 07:22 AM
Sanjuro, I take umbrance! That is not a 'typical' demo, that is an 'exceptional' demo!

I can just say, I've pushed people on the street like that twice. Once at a massive outdoor event and the aggressive jerk was on my nerves and I really had to get him out of my space, the other time, a guy was in my face - and I just removed him for both our safety.

Both times I could feel their rib cage compress and hear the wheeze and see the 'bug eye', both times they went down, both times they got up and went away... granted, sprouting foul language...

It just took the fight out of them, so, hey, I'm counting that...

To me, the single most significant issue is the telegraph, or rather lack. Going from stop to go without any twitch, breath or positioning. If you can do that, you can make Hakka boxing work.



Oh yea, Fung ahn on the end of it helps.

Sorry, I have never been much of a "push" person.
Why push when you can DESTROY !?!?!?!?!?
:D

Yum Cha
09-08-2010, 05:54 PM
Sorry, I have never been much of a "push" person.
Why push when you can DESTROY !?!?!?!?!?
:D

Gee, you have to make a little room sometimes in the clinch... :p

And you know, I'm sure, you can chamber different kinds of rounds in that weapon.

And that's kind of the cornerstone of the debate, I suppose, the short hand vs the 'longer arc' styles. With Boxing being what, 40/60?

sanjuro_ronin
09-09-2010, 05:37 AM
Gee, you have to make a little room sometimes in the clinch... :p

And you know, I'm sure, you can chamber different kinds of rounds in that weapon.

And that's kind of the cornerstone of the debate, I suppose, the short hand vs the 'longer arc' styles. With Boxing being what, 40/60?

Well, boxing has gloves, big gloves and to generate KO power with pillows, you need more body behind it and momentum.
Because the contact surface with gloves is different and "further' ahead then without them, power delivery is different.

I don't think the debate is really that though, we have all seen examples of short power in boxing from Marciano to Tyson and beyond.
No, that isn't the debate or the issue.
I think that the issue is COMBINATIONS that are no more than slaps.

Jorge
09-10-2010, 07:49 AM
Sanjuro,

I can't speak for the people on the link, as I don't know them and have never felt their hands, but maybe its slaps cause its a demo. Or they dont want to take each others heads off.

I train yau kung so I've learned to flow and still have power behind my shots. Its not the three strikes like most short hands. We can throw as 5-6 combos and the power is still there(in my experience it has). If I'm not mistaken Jook Lum is also known for this. Not to mention there is rebound power in these short hand systems. It takes time to learn and your not going to get it from the forms, it has to be trained live. Slowly at first so that you understand how the body moves and how to actually get the rebound going, but once the understanding is there we pick up the pace. For example, we start off with pad drills and work it into our sparring. Soy Kuil Bin Choy!:) Then there is the saying, it doesn't matter how hard you hit, but where you hit! Which I find to also be true. We all talk from our personal experiences...What works for me, might not work for you and visa-versa and thats cool. Whats important is that we train what works for us, we test and fine tune during sparring and most importantly we have fun learning\training. When I stop having fun, then I'll stop training....cause cats out here dont scrap anymore...and I'm not known to bring my fists to a gun fight.lolol

Bless,

Buby

sanjuro_ronin
09-10-2010, 08:34 AM
I've seen their pad work too ( the guys on the video) and it is NOT what pad work is suppose to be.
Slapping the pads is just as bad as slapping the salami and not near as much fun.
But slaps is what you get when you try to "flurry" your combinations like they are doing, just like the American kenpo guys do as an outside example.

If you are fighting someone, especially a bigger person, and that someone wants to really take your striking hard off, those slabs will not work, sorry.

As for hitting the right places, that is great and all but since the other guy is not just standing there and he is trying to rip your face off and skull **** you, those "right places" are gonna be pretty hard to hit so you better hope that ANYWHERE you make contact, you are gonna make contact with enough force to STOP him from doing just that.

TenTigers
09-10-2010, 08:50 AM
I agree with Jorge-the slaps are simply focused strikes but not with power, so as not to injure each other, yet still make contact. Frankly, I think this is plainly obvious to anyone with any experience and half a brain.
The breaking is to demonstrate that yes, they can generate power.
It's like light sparring vs hitting the bags/mits-if you catch my meaning.
As far as multiple strikes, in my limited SPM experience, each strike has full body connection, so the next strike comes from where the hand is, coupled with how the body is positioned.
ie: if my right hand strike brings my right shoulder forward, and my hip turned, then my left strike will come from the rear-loaded left shoulder and opposite hip movement, jab/cross does the same thing.
If I need to hit with my right instead of my left, then I need to understand how to coil and whip,spit and swallow, in order to generate the short power.
This is one of the most difficult skills to develop.
One, because developing the power in general takes time, effort, etc
two-to be able to develop the conditioned response to be able to pull this off, doing multiple strikes in rapid-fire succession, under stress of combat
...aye, there's the rub

It's being able to put it all together that will take years

sanjuro_ronin
09-10-2010, 08:54 AM
I agree with Jorge-the slaps are simply focused strikes but not with power, so as not to injure each other, yet still make contact. Frankly, I think this is plainly obvious to anyone with any experience and half a brain.
The breaking is to demonstrate that yes, they can generate power.
It's like light sparring vs hitting the bags/mits-if you catch my meaning.
As far as multiple strikes, in my limited SPM experience, each strike has full body connection, so the next strike comes from where the hand is, coupled with how the body is positioned.
ie: if my right hand strike brings my right shoulder forward, and my hip turned, then my left strike will come from the rear-loaded left shoulder and opposite hip movement, jab/cross does the same thing.
If I need to hit with my right instead of my left, then I need to understand how to coil and whip,spit and swallow, in order to generate the short power.
This is one of the most difficult skills to develop.
One, because developing the power in general takes time, effort, etc
two-to be able to develop the conditioned response to be able to pull this off, doing multiple strikes in rapid-fire succession, under stress of combat
...aye, there's the rub

It's being able to put it all together that will take years

Sorry, don't see it.
If you don't train it the right way it will NOT come out in combat, it just won't no matter how hard you think it will.
I've seen it first hand with my Sifu's students, with students from a nearby Pak mei school in London and another pak mei school here in Toronto ( Scarborough to be specific).

Now of course it could be just those people, but the fact that it is constant and across the board and not just with a couple of practioners makes MY experience on this way different than yours it seems.

TenTigers
09-10-2010, 08:57 AM
I've seen their pad work too ( the guys on the video) and it is NOT what pad work is suppose to be.
Slapping the pads is just as bad as slapping the salami and not near as much fun.
But slaps is what you get when you try to "flurry" your combinations like they are doing, just like the American kenpo guys do as an outside example.

If you are fighting someone, especially a bigger person, and that someone wants to really take your striking hard off, those slabs will not work, sorry.

agreed. I think the idea in this case is that if the person is disoriented, then they are set up for the heavier coup de gras.
Finger fliks to the eyes are not KO's but if I can make you shut your eyes and wince for even a second, I can get in my second strike, and my third.
Sure, it's great to KO someone with an opening strike, but not likely.
More likely you will set up,daze, confuse, and then go in for the kill.
Similar to how a shark will first bump its prey, then circle and take a chomp, circle and take another chomp, and when the prey is incapacitated, go in for the rip-open-the gut and devour.

-except for those Great Whites that come up from underneath at 25mph and take a sealion in its jaws,while breaching like a marlin. those are cool!
(and also the reason why I only swim in pools...)

TenTigers
09-10-2010, 09:06 AM
yeah, I think I drifted a bit-
In the first part, I was just saying how I believe they are training, the second part being how SPM trains the multiple strikes.
They are actually two separate thoughts.

sanjuro_ronin
09-10-2010, 09:46 AM
yeah, I think I drifted a bit-
In the first part, I was just saying how I believe they are training, the second part being how SPM trains the multiple strikes.
They are actually two separate thoughts.

As you know, we tend to agree on most things, simple because we both cling to the "ancient ways" even if we train them with a modern flair.
But the reason I am being contensious with you on this is because I KNOW that the vast majority of Short hand guys that "slap fight" end up doing this for real and pay the price for it, I have seen it and have tried to fix that on those that I care enough to fix.
It's not that I KNOW more than them, its because I understand the role of short power better than they do in regards to TODAY'S fighting.
It doesn't matter how it was done 50 years ago, those people were not presented with they type of fighters we are today and most of them fought within their "inbreeding grounds".
How m any times do we have to see another "kung fu master" get his ass kicked by a MMA guy because he doesn't have a clue to sloving that puzzle because he has been playing a different game all this time?

I don't know how you spar bro, but I do know how I do it and how I have seen it and felt it in the schools I have trained in and the fact it, Short hand falls apart as soon as it is presented a different set of variables than it is trained against.

I can name names even but I won't because I am not here to ruin anyone livelyhood, but too many Sifu's are in a dilusion of effectiveness because all they do is "fight" their own students and their own kind.

Well, guess what?
There are far more people training MT and MMA and USING it then there was guys training kung fu and karate and using it back 10-20 or 30 years ago.
And they KNOW how to take most TCMA out of their comfort zone.

Jorge
09-10-2010, 11:58 AM
Let me see if I can marry what Sanjuro is saying to what Ten Tigers and myself are saying...

If I'm understanding Sanjuro correctly, he's saying that training in a slap type fashion will build bad habits. Please correct me if I'm wrong. If so, then I can agree to an extent. Because you fight the way you train and if all you are doing is letting your hands go, but not really training the power generation, intent and skill that Ten Tigers is talking about, it will never happen in a stressful type of environment like a real fight.

If so, then we all agree. One must train accordingly! Slapping has its time an place, but to go slap happy as a means of training your fighting hand its not progressive. You are not going to learn the proper timing, distancing it takes to release ging or the proper intent to make it work. My Sifu comes from a full contact background so he stresses full contact training and sparring, we all get roughed up, but we are training martial arts.LOLOL Maybe I'm a gluten for pain, but I feel like the man coming home all Fncked up after training.LOLOL

Ten Tigers: I understand what you mean...One of my old JKD instructors would have us chain punch for days and of course some had it more down then others with regards to power... When it came to this technique he didn't care if we had crazy power behind it. He said the trick was to snap the head back quickly as many times as you could within a rapid succession. His logic was that if the head snaps back and the brain shakes inside and smacks against the skull enough times, eventually it would short its self out and cause a KO. Which made sense for it was chain punches. I've also seen it done, but I cant comment on how much power the dude used to get it done.


Bless,

Buby

sanjuro_ronin
09-10-2010, 12:07 PM
In a nutshell, Buby, yes, you are right, what was my point, to a degree.
But you make a comment that reflects the other point that I don't think came across:

I've also seen it done,
We've ALL seen stuff done, that is an irrelevant point, the context of HOW it was done is everything.
I've seen guys get take out by a low round kick all the time in demos, but how many times do you see ONE kick take out a guy in a fight?
I've seen many guys put down with a shot to the gut or ribs or side of the neck, in demos, but how many times have you seen it in an actual fight?
See my point?
Many things seem to work in controlled sparring and in demos and when Sifu demos it on us hurts like freaking tomorrow, but that doesn't mean it will work on someone trying to give us a new anus.

SavvySavage
09-10-2010, 12:33 PM
In a nutshell, Buby, yes, you are right, what was my point, to a degree.
But you make a comment that reflects the other point that I don't think came across:

We've ALL seen stuff done, that is an irrelevant point, the context of HOW it was done is everything.
I've seen guys get take out by a low round kick all the time in demos, but how many times do you see ONE kick take out a guy in a fight?
I've seen many guys put down with a shot to the gut or ribs or side of the neck, in demos, but how many times have you seen it in an actual fight?
See my point?
Many things seem to work in controlled sparring and in demos and when Sifu demos it on us hurts like freaking tomorrow, but that doesn't mean it will work on someone trying to give us a new anus.


One needs to questions why these movements from the drills don't come out looking pretty during sparring or even come out at all. The traditional way of looking at it would say to us that we haven't trained it long enough which baffles me. If I've been doing drills for four years...how many more years do I need to drill before I stopped getting punched in sparring? Then the person would say that you haven't been training full time for four years...that you're only doing it part time...thereby saying you need to put MORE time into the same kind of drilling. I feel bad for saying this but the people making these claims aren't ever sparring and there is never any footage of them fighting. They "have" sparred but no one was ever around to ascertain whether or not their claims of using real kung fu were real and if they actually looked any different than "glorified kickboxers."

Sanjuro makes a good point about how techniques worked, whether in demo or sparring/fighting, and that that makes a difference in whether or not it actually works. I was sparring the other day and my partner made this claim: "The reason I'm getting hit is because I'm actually trying to do kung fu. It seems like you're just head hunting."

Years ago I would have fully supported this view and said, "yeah you're right. I'm just going crazy and not doing 'real' technique but you're probably better than me overall." Looking at it now I say that the old me was full of crap. The guy I was sparring trying to do 'real kung fu' was doing just the opposite. He was not defending/attacking effectively and was getting pummeled. His mistake, imo, was trying to do moves out of forms that aren't realistic no matter how often trained. Being effective in sparring might just be the 'real kung fu'.

SavvySavage
09-10-2010, 12:51 PM
I'd also like to point out that I've never been stopped by short power during sparring. It's a great concept when drilling but seems to fizzle when sparring. Some may claim that I haven't sparred with the 'real deal' whatever that means and whoever that is.

Jorge
09-10-2010, 02:25 PM
In a nutshell, Buby, yes, you are right, what was my point, to a degree.
But you make a comment that reflects the other point that I don't think came across:

We've ALL seen stuff done, that is an irrelevant point, the context of HOW it was done is everything.
I've seen guys get take out by a low round kick all the time in demos, but how many times do you see ONE kick take out a guy in a fight?
I've seen many guys put down with a shot to the gut or ribs or side of the neck, in demos, but how many times have you seen it in an actual fight?
See my point?
Many things seem to work in controlled sparring and in demos and when Sifu demos it on us hurts like freaking tomorrow, but that doesn't mean it will work on someone trying to give us a new anus.

Bro, but that is a given! No tech. is full proof. Its going to vary according to your opponent. Its one of the reasons I dont rely on kinematic responses cause I learned quickly that everybody's pain threshold or tolerance is different. Not to mention if the dude is geeked up!

I can't relate, because I don't do controlled sparring. After the first six months, we are all made to fight full contact.


Bless,

Buby

Jorge
09-10-2010, 03:08 PM
One needs to questions why these movements from the drills don't come out looking pretty during sparring or even come out at all. The traditional way of looking at it would say to us that we haven't trained it long enough which baffles me. If I've been doing drills for four years...how many more years do I need to drill before I stopped getting punched in sparring? Then the person would say that you haven't been training full time for four years...that you're only doing it part time...thereby saying you need to put MORE time into the same kind of drilling. I feel bad for saying this but the people making these claims aren't ever sparring and there is never any footage of them fighting. They "have" sparred but no one was ever around to ascertain whether or not their claims of using real kung fu were real and if they actually looked any different than "glorified kickboxers."

Sanjuro makes a good point about how techniques worked, whether in demo or sparring/fighting, and that that makes a difference in whether or not it actually works. I was sparring the other day and my partner made this claim: "The reason I'm getting hit is because I'm actually trying to do kung fu. It seems like you're just head hunting."

Years ago I would have fully supported this view and said, "yeah you're right. I'm just going crazy and not doing 'real' technique but you're probably better than me overall." Looking at it now I say that the old me was full of crap. The guy I was sparring trying to do 'real kung fu' was doing just the opposite. He was not defending/attacking effectively and was getting pummeled. His mistake, imo, was trying to do moves out of forms that aren't realistic no matter how often trained. Being effective in sparring might just be the 'real kung fu'.


Bro,
You are probably right, because drills will only get you so far and they do not prepare you for a real fight. You have to fight in order to learn to fight and not against your same style.

IMHO, its incorrect to train sequences as found in forms, because everybody is different. No two people are going to react the same. Again, I'm stuck cause its not the way I was taught to train my Kung Fu. I learned kinematic responses so I could learn how the body should react, but again, everybody's different.

Yes, I will agree wit you. He was doing the opposite, but that falls on the sifu/coach for not coaching him properly during the sparring. And every move has its time and place, knowing when to use them is something else.

The Kung Fu I've learned is fast and ugly. Its like a street fighters intent, but with a boxers speed and grace.LOLOL I made that one up so if any one wants to use my saying its .25 cents, so I can get me a quarter water.LOLOL

Bless,

Buby

Jorge
09-10-2010, 03:12 PM
I'd also like to point out that I've never been stopped by short power during sparring. It's a great concept when drilling but seems to fizzle when sparring. Some may claim that I haven't sparred with the 'real deal' whatever that means and whoever that is.

You have never been stopped by a good cross or a good solid jab? We have those in short hand systems, of course by different names. What makes them short hand is our posture, no need to bring the elbows back.

Bless,

Buby

TenTigers
09-10-2010, 03:50 PM
Savvy-I agree with most of what you are saying.
I also agree with the part about not practicing enough to be a bad answer...although...
when I tell students about how long to practice technique, I chose one, and without saying anything, toss a focus mitt at them.
When they catch it, I ask them "how many times did you practice catching something?"
"from the time Daddy sat down with yuo on the floor and rolled a ball at you , and put your little hands on it, to eventually catching it on a bounce, to flyballs, etc,etc.
How many times was that?
So, how many times do you need to practice something before it becomes a natural reaction? Under stress?"
Did you ever see a guy bat a line drive right at the pitcher, and the pitcher catches it? I could never do that. But, I am not a baseball player, nor have I put in anywhere near the time practicing catching.
So you need to ask a question-how much do you practice a technique before you decide that you are practicing an inneffective technique, and disgard it?
I look at it this way-if I know people who can use it-really use it, then I think it may be worth my time. But if it's a "Fantasy Island" technique,
then yeah, I chuck it.
Like when I trained kenpo-there were so many techniques that were either fluff, or fodder, so I no longer practice them.
Same with Hapkido and Jiu-Jutsu.
Why on Earth do we do techniques against a handshake?
I asked my Kenpo teacher that once and he laughed and said, "Maybe the guy owes you money!"

Yum Cha
09-11-2010, 01:12 AM
I'd also like to point out that I've never been stopped by short power during sparring. It's a great concept when drilling but seems to fizzle when sparring. Some may claim that I haven't sparred with the 'real deal' whatever that means and whoever that is.


Never copped a jab coming in? Come on......:D

Yum Cha
09-11-2010, 01:28 AM
Pak Mei has 8 hands. Short hand is just one.....

I assume SPM is the same? Ten made THE point. The quick ear box, eye rake, nose slap, shin kick, whatever, isn't the knockout, its what you are bringing up from back room once you have an edge.

A good knee through the groin to the spine, or a twin handful of hair, head butt, joint attack....

Personally, I look at 'short power' like clinch or "dirty boxing'. Sanjuro, cretainly you know what its like to get inside on someone, and simply have your way with them because they can't get a grip to grapple, and their mid-game is beaten...

Sanjuro, what would you know about neck attacks?? You first have to have a neck for someone to attack it... :eek:

soulfist
09-11-2010, 01:54 AM
What is "Pak Mei"? If you say Pak Mei to a Chinese person I guarantee they wont know what your talking about.

Pak Mei means "slap with the tail"
Bak Mei means "white eyebrow"

My Japanese friend said now his country has a "big erection". I explained about the r and l pronunciation but he said "its close enough, people will understand".

SavvySavage
09-11-2010, 03:59 AM
Never copped a jab coming in? Come on......:D

I didn't mean that I haven't been hit before. When I said I was never stopped by short power blows I meant that I was never completely dominated by someone using short power on me constantly to where I died. Tentigers said a flick to the eyes won't knock a person out but it sets him up for the second and third knockout blow. That kind of combination had never happened to me.. Hook, jab, and uppercuts can technically be done with short power but I was talking about the three power strikes typically seen in three step arrow. Donenon drilling looks beautiful but when sparring it doesn't seem to work well. Can someone please come knock me out using three step short power strikes? :)

TenTigers
09-11-2010, 05:23 AM
the three power strike isn't actually used like that-except rarely.. It is more of a developmental training exercise.

Jorge
09-11-2010, 06:06 AM
I didn't mean that I haven't been hit before. When I said I was never stopped by short power blows I meant that I was never completely dominated by someone using short power on me constantly to where I died. Tentigers said a flick to the eyes won't knock a person out but it sets him up for the second and third knockout blow. That kind of combination had never happened to me.. Hook, jab, and uppercuts can technically be done with short power but I was talking about the three power strikes typically seen in three step arrow. Donenon drilling looks beautiful but when sparring it doesn't seem to work well. Can someone please come knock me out using three step short power strikes? :)

You guys were fighting for real? Using gloves?

Also, just because someone trains short hand it doesn't make the unstoppable. Its a fighting hand like any other. You have your good apples and your bad ones. It just is what it is!


Bless,

Buby

Yum Cha
09-12-2010, 03:28 PM
You guys were fighting for real? Using gloves?

Also, just because someone trains short hand it doesn't make the unstoppable. Its a fighting hand like any other. You have your good apples and your bad ones. It just is what it is!


Bless,

Buby

I've been looking at a lot of push hands lately, and looking at the way they grab position and attack the person's balance. There is short and shock power all over the place as they engage.

I was lucky to catch this chinese series on cd at Sifu's last night - they take a celeb or some kind and work them up in MA, then fight them off against others... It was chen tai chi, two old masters training two students, and exploring the art, blah blah, blah.... I think its a series. Nice interviews and footage of some push hands champs young and old. They did a bit better than the old footage from the 50's of chan hak fu, which they did feature...

Of course, I think, 'Yea, he threw him down, I would have hit him instead and then threw him down, point being, techniques work fine, but my training integrates them differently, as would everyones.

Short power isn't just a flick of a phoenix, or a quick little jab, even though that may be what you see. It is the quick pull/jerk as much as the quick outward strike. There's a whole stance foundation. ton-tou, chum-fa, all that stuff.

But, its just like any kung fu tricks. Learning to do it, and learning to apply it are totally different. Youtube is paved with the resulting spectacular fails.

Jorge
09-12-2010, 03:43 PM
I've been looking at a lot of push hands lately, and looking at the way they grab position and attack the person's balance. There is short and shock power all over the place as they engage.

I was lucky to catch this chinese series on cd at Sifu's last night - they take a celeb or some kind and work them up in MA, then fight them off against others... It was chen tai chi, two old masters training two students, and exploring the art, blah blah, blah.... I think its a series. Nice interviews and footage of some push hands champs young and old. They did a bit better than the old footage from the 50's of chan hak fu, which they did feature...

Of course, I think, 'Yea, he threw him down, I would have hit him instead and then threw him down, point being, techniques work fine, but my training integrates them differently, as would everyones.

Short power isn't just a flick of a phoenix, or a quick little jab, even though that may be what you see. It is the quick pull/jerk as much as the quick outward strike. There's a whole stance foundation. ton-tou, chum-fa, all that stuff.

But, its just like any kung fu tricks. Learning to do it, and learning to apply it are totally different. Youtube is paved with the resulting spectacular fails.

Agreed, but how can one grab if they cant even get in to range? Thats why its important that these things are taught, but I definitely agree that short power is more then just striking. AHH, I see where you going with the push hand thingy. Best of luck in your training. Just train it live bro, so you can really see what works and what doesn't work for you.

Bless,

Buby

Syn7
09-12-2010, 03:52 PM
Agreed, but how can one grab if they cant even get in to range? Thats why its important that these things are taught, but I definitely agree that short power is more then just striking. AHH, I see where you going with the push hand thingy. Best of luck in your training. Just train it live bro, so you can really see what works and what doesn't work for you.

Bless,

Buby

yeah but most shortfist footwork is all about getting inside... any shortfist style will take into consideration that they need to get inside to go to work... esspecially the more aggressive offensive styles... they are all about counterstriking... step inside, parry/strike, work some more or back out and escape...

Yum Cha
09-12-2010, 07:04 PM
Agreed, but how can one grab if they cant even get in to range? Thats why its important that these things are taught, but I definitely agree that short power is more then just striking. AHH, I see where you going with the push hand thingy. Best of luck in your training.

Buby, I've put years into the act of getting safely into range. Its a pet study of mine.

Unfortunately, I know its a luxury.

Yum Cha
09-12-2010, 07:07 PM
yeah but most shortfist footwork is all about getting inside... any shortfist style will take into consideration that they need to get inside to go to work... esspecially the more aggressive offensive styles... they are all about counterstriking... step inside, parry/strike, work some more or back out and escape...

Also, notably, most western style fighters have only got 'dirty boxing' and grappling to draw upon at that range - I suspect the 52 hands stuff has some in tight stuff too...

My principle being that you throw stuff at people they haven't seen, they have a lower chance of countering it.

Jorge
09-12-2010, 08:08 PM
Buby, I've put years into the act of getting safely into range. Its a pet study of mine.

Unfortunately, I know its a luxury.

Thats whats up!

Bless,

Buby

sanjuro_ronin
09-13-2010, 07:05 AM
My principle being that you throw stuff at people they haven't seen, they have a lower chance of countering it.

And THAT is the key Boys and girls.

As for the comment about me not having a neck, eat me !
:p

Jorge
09-13-2010, 07:25 AM
And THAT is the key Boys and girls.

As for the comment about me not having a neck, eat me !
:p

Only with Peanut Butter!LOLOL


Bless,

Buby

sanjuro_ronin
09-13-2010, 08:21 AM
yeah but most shortfist footwork is all about getting inside... any shortfist style will take into consideration that they need to get inside to go to work... esspecially the more aggressive offensive styles... they are all about counterstriking... step inside, parry/strike, work some more or back out and escape...

Ok, here is the thing, this is one of the most common misconceptions :

they are all about counterstriking...

Now, I am NOT saying that many don't do this, many do actually, probably most, but in my view this is a mistake for a short range fighter.
At least from my experience and how it applies to me, I get better results when I attack as oppose to "waiting and seeing".
Now, the thing is I do NOT attack per say, but attack of the initial movement or when the opponent has enter the "circle of no-return" and I don't attack off his attack or based on whatever move he makes, I attack based on the shape that has been presented to me.
In other words, I make my opponent my "punching bag".

sanjuro_ronin
09-13-2010, 08:30 AM
An example of short power in boxing:
(Just ignore the end)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5v0vl6iTlC4

Violent Designs
09-13-2010, 10:19 AM
What about adding boxing's intricate bobbing and weaving to any Chinese short-hand fist like SPM or Bak Mei?

Don't yell at me I don't play any Hakka arts, so I don't really have any clue as to what "works" or "doesn't work." :p

Frost
09-13-2010, 10:21 AM
Also, notably, most western style fighters have only got 'dirty boxing' and grappling to draw upon at that range - I suspect the 52 hands stuff has some in tight stuff too...

My principle being that you throw stuff at people they haven't seen, they have a lower chance of countering it.
even if the comment was true do you actually need more than just grappling and dirty boxing at this range?

and its not really an accurate statement most boxers will drill inside unattached boxing as part of their training, its a horrible drill but very useful for learning how to move and cover at this range, and any MMA gym worth its salt will spent alot of time teaching close-in striking in the clinch, its ahuge part of the game and a huge part of fighting just as they will spend a lot of time on teaching how to maintain distance and keep a close range fighter at bay

Frost
09-13-2010, 10:24 AM
Ok, here is the thing, this is one of the most common misconceptions :


Now, I am NOT saying that many don't do this, many do actually, probably most, but in my view this is a mistake for a short range fighter.
At least from my experience and how it applies to me, I get better results when I attack as oppose to "waiting and seeing".
Now, the thing is I do NOT attack per say, but attack of the initial movement or when the opponent has enter the "circle of no-return" and I don't attack off his attack or based on whatever move he makes, I attack based on the shape that has been presented to me.
In other words, I make my opponent my "punching bag".

same here i was always taught to attack as soon as the intention was firm in the opponent, not to wait until he has attacked but when he is committing, of course doing this is easier said than done.... and once in close you are right about making him your punch bag, at that range you have to attack and initiate anything, playing catch up close in means you are losing quickly

Violent Designs
09-13-2010, 10:26 AM
You also cannot discount the intricacies of the Muay Thai clinchwork. I am NOT talking about the plum, that is just basics... actually a lot of top Thai guys don't prefer the Plum as far as controlling/throwing is concerned.

In Thai boxing there is a huge emphasis on controlling the arms/wrists/shoulders and just overall upper body control, taking your opponent's balance, etc...

And they do all this unrehearsed drilling. Like Ronin said before about SPM and other short-hand guys not commonly fighting outside of their own systems, I don't see what is going to stop a very good Thai clincher from controlling the short-hand guy via clinchwork. Even if he was very good, he should still at least stalemate the situation.

And once you get into upper body control/balance control/throwing/sweeping it is another ballgame as well.

Do SPM guys train to throw and sweep a lot as well? Or is it mostly striking?

Thanks

Yum Cha
09-13-2010, 02:42 PM
What about adding boxing's intricate bobbing and weaving to any Chinese short-hand fist like SPM or Bak Mei?

Don't yell at me I don't play any Hakka arts, so I don't really have any clue as to what "works" or "doesn't work." :p


Pay the man - yes indeed, at least I do...

I tend to think of it as "Chinese Boxing" instead of esoteric blah blah blah....

Boxing is boxing...


Sanjuro, you gave away a secret...... You make them your punching bag.
Suggestion and visualisation in one fell swoop....

Don't worry about the neck, as you get older it comes back....but shaving gets more difficult...

Yum Cha
09-13-2010, 03:12 PM
even if the comment was true do you actually need more than just grappling and dirty boxing at this range?

and its not really an accurate statement most boxers will drill inside unattached boxing as part of their training, its a horrible drill but very useful for learning how to move and cover at this range, and any MMA gym worth its salt will spent alot of time teaching close-in striking in the clinch, its ahuge part of the game and a huge part of fighting just as they will spend a lot of time on teaching how to maintain distance and keep a close range fighter at bay

There are lots of things you can do in close - make your choice. You can't dirty box and put on a leg bar, unless you have 4 arms.... I guess that's what makes the individual.

Its not a cure-all, just a choice, if your grappling or dirty boxing is working for you, you probably don't need it.

I also notice you called it unattached boxing - is that what I was calling 'dirty boxing' the clinch range stuff? So, does that mean there is an attached boxing too?

Jorge
09-13-2010, 05:16 PM
Nice vid Sanjuro!

Here's another one of Mike. Notice his stance/footwork training, especially the tied feet. What makes Mike special is that he punched straight from his guard and with crazy power. True short power. All he needs is his elbows in and he's short hand, but the short power is there. Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPkn8VCpNmc&feature=related

His bobbing and weaving just added to his power. Mike is off the hook, but I gotta take my hat off to Cus, cause he taught Mike the sweet science. Cus created a Monster.

Bless

Buby

Yum Cha
09-13-2010, 07:54 PM
Buby, notice the stance training at 1:11..... Anything look familiar? :D

Frost
09-14-2010, 12:04 AM
There are lots of things you can do in close - make your choice. You can't dirty box and put on a leg bar, unless you have 4 arms.... I guess that's what makes the individual.

Its not a cure-all, just a choice, if your grappling or dirty boxing is working for you, you probably don't need it.

I also notice you called it unattached boxing - is that what I was calling 'dirty boxing' the clinch range stuff? So, does that mean there is an attached boxing too?

unattached close range boxing is when you are not allowed to clinch, you normally start shoulder to shoulder and hit from there, you can shoulder punch to make room, throw overhands, hooks and upper cuts, you simply cant actually clinch with the opponent or break out to a safe distance, its different from clinch infighting.

Boxers also cover using the clinch but in a limited way, how to cover and not get hit and how to throw a few strikes, what you call dirty boxing is clinch fighting by another name, combining wrestling and thai controls with in close strikes, it is mixing grappling and striking and whilst you are right you cant strike and go for a rolling knee bar at the same time, you can use grappling controls (2 on 1's, neck ties etc) to control as you strike very effectivally.

Yum Cha
09-14-2010, 12:18 AM
...combining wrestling and thai controls with in close strikes, it is mixing grappling and striking ..... you can use grappling controls (2 on 1's, neck ties etc) to control as you strike very effectivally.

Oh, you didn't tell me you studied Pak Mei....

Ok, lets just say, I know what you mean. Some people call it sticky fighting, bridge fighting even, dirty boxing.... Holding and hitting.

Jorge
09-14-2010, 01:08 AM
Buby, notice the stance training at 1:11..... Anything look familiar? :D

Most definitely.:)

Frost
09-14-2010, 02:00 AM
Oh, you didn't tell me you studied Pak Mei....

Ok, lets just say, I know what you mean. Some people call it sticky fighting, bridge fighting even, dirty boxing.... Holding and hitting.

Well I haven’t done as much bak mei as you, my bak mei and yung ling study was fairly brief (am hoping to do more of it but only so many days in the week :o( ), but the kung fu style I spent a decade in was a close cousin, (despite claiming a shaolin background I am fairly certain it was hakka in origin) its master demoed at all the big hakka events here in the UK, was invited to all the yung ling and bakmei events and birthdays etc we did the unicorn rather than the lion dance and we spent a lot of time developing shock power and the PE fist, and close in sticky fighting

So I know what you mean as well, but for me the difference is when we did sticky/bridge fighting the amount of time spent in contact with the arms: pinning forcing, down controlling etc, was much more than the time spent controlling the body and the head, we did not use single and double neck ties, under hooks were not used that much we concentrated on mainly controlling from the wrist to the elbow, using legs to off set the opponents balance somewhat and delivering close hard shots.

My clinch work now covers how to deal with single and double neck ties, what to do if they go from underhooks to leg attack etc if your sticky hand training covers this then we are on the same page, but my experience is similar to SJs, when you introduce these tie ups and strikes to a guy only used to close in sticking work with the hands they tend to fall apart. I found it great for dealing with other similar arts but fightinf now offer a different game and you are much more likely to meet someone who knows the thai plum or the body lock than you are someone trained in sticking bridge work

sanjuro_ronin
09-14-2010, 06:07 AM
Nice vid Sanjuro!

Here's another one of Mike. Notice his stance/footwork training, especially the tied feet. What makes Mike special is that he punched straight from his guard and with crazy power. True short power. All he needs is his elbows in and he's short hand, but the short power is there. Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPkn8VCpNmc&feature=related

His bobbing and weaving just added to his power. Mike is off the hook, but I gotta take my hat off to Cus, cause he taught Mike the sweet science. Cus created a Monster.

Bless

Buby

Indeed Cus did.
Mike is truly what a practical "short hand" fighter should be, the way he moves, his footwork, his dismissal of "blocks", his single minded purpose to destroy.
As for the elbows, what you find when you fight people that KNOW how to fight AND are trying to knock your head off is that, elbows in the front leaves your ribs and side FAR TOO exposed, hence the elbows come back to protect.
Anyone that has ever gotten hooked in the ribs or liver from the outside like what will happen when keeping the elbows "out in front" knows NEVER to do it again.
It can be fighter ender.

It was one of the things I never changed when I started SPM and me Sifu was OK with it, he understood since HE had boxed too and also because he was a firm believer in making the style work of you, not you for the style.

TenTigers
09-14-2010, 07:45 AM
Lung Ying, not Yung Ling
Dylexics
of the world
untie!:p

Jorge
09-14-2010, 08:18 AM
Indeed Cus did.
Mike is truly what a practical "short hand" fighter should be, the way he moves, his footwork, his dismissal of "blocks", his single minded purpose to destroy.
As for the elbows, what you find when you fight people that KNOW how to fight AND are trying to knock your head off is that, elbows in the front leaves your ribs and side FAR TOO exposed, hence the elbows come back to protect.
Anyone that has ever gotten hooked in the ribs or liver from the outside like what will happen when keeping the elbows "out in front" knows NEVER to do it again.
It can be fighter ender.

It was one of the things I never changed when I started SPM and me Sifu was OK with it, he understood since HE had boxed too and also because he was a firm believer in making the style work of you, not you for the style.

There's no disagreement here. What I make reference to is having to bring back your elbow back to generate power. Thats all! I suffered 3 fractured ribs once and that was a pain! I couldn't bend down or anything, it would hurt and knock the wind out of me and took like forever to fully heal. Extended hands, has its time and place. Your opponent shouldn't get past that point, but if you spar enough you learn quickly that things happens.lolol Its always, better safe, then sorry!:)

And I'm not talking fully extended hands or anything like that. I've seen some different things to what I was taught as a short hand guard that I personally wouldn't use, but if they make it work, more power to them.

Jorge
09-14-2010, 08:24 AM
lung ying, not yung ling
dylexics
of the world
untie!:p

lololol....

TenTigers
09-14-2010, 08:44 AM
Jorge-usually the hands are extended (albiet not fully, as you say) pre-engagement.

SavvySavage
09-14-2010, 12:02 PM
the three power strike isn't actually used like that-except rarely.. It is more of a developmental training exercise.

Let's suppose this is true. So is Mike Tyson doing a version of southern mantis since he uses short power and spm has hooks/uppercuts, etc? He used short powered everything.

Was Mike Tyson the quintessential spm man that made it work? Or is it supposed to look like something else?

TenTigers
09-14-2010, 02:31 PM
Let's suppose this is true. So is Mike Tyson doing a version of southern mantis since he uses short power and spm has hooks/uppercuts, etc? He used short powered everything.

Was Mike Tyson the quintessential spm man that made it work? Or is it supposed to look like something else?

well, sure-at times. SPM does have jab, cross, uppercut and hooks in its arsenel.
Until one has an arm growing out of a different part of their torso, all Martial Arts will possess certain commonalities.

Yum Cha
09-14-2010, 04:51 PM
well, sure-at times. SPM does have jab, cross, uppercut and hooks in its arsenel.
Until one has an arm growing out of a different part of their torso, all Martial Arts will possess certain commonalities.

Yea, I don't think anybody is saying Tyson is a SPM guy, or even close, but it always gets my attention when I see common techniques or movements used across different types or styles.

The old saying is that all roads lead to the same place. Nice to see some common intersections...

And watching Tyson do 'stance training' was just plain fun....I mean, being that its so useless and all....:p

Yum Cha
09-14-2010, 04:52 PM
Until one has an arm growing out of a different part of their torso, all Martial Arts will possess certain commonalities.

What, you don't have an extra little arm growing out of your torso???

Yum Cha
09-14-2010, 05:08 PM
So I know what you mean as well, but for me the difference is when we did sticky/bridge fighting the amount of time spent in contact with the arms: pinning forcing, down controlling etc, was much more than the time spent controlling the body and the head, we did not use single and double neck ties, under hooks were not used that much we concentrated on mainly controlling from the wrist to the elbow, using legs to off set the opponents balance somewhat and delivering close hard shots.

My clinch work now covers how to deal with single and double neck ties, what to do if they go from underhooks to leg attack etc if your sticky hand training covers this then we are on the same page, but my experience is similar to SJs, when you introduce these tie ups and strikes to a guy only used to close in sticking work with the hands they tend to fall apart. I found it great for dealing with other similar arts but fightinf now offer a different game and you are much more likely to meet someone who knows the thai plum or the body lock than you are someone trained in sticking bridge work

I don't know if this will give you any insight, but the secret to sticky/grabby fighting is not in sticking, but in knowing when to yield for the next better position or strike. You stick for just a fraction, enough to 'snuff' a reflex, but not long enough to wrestle, unless you are going for a big joint attack, etc...

That's why the speed of the hand, and the nuisance strikes that set up the big hit work. i.e. the underhand flick to the groin(low) followed by the forearm to the bridge of the nose (high) when the opponent flinches forward to block, that kind of stuff.

My best results from when somebody gets me with a plum or body lock, is to twist and throw them off sideways, using waist rotation and arms. Or just plain pushing.

On underhooks, the rotation can turn it into a wizzer of sorts, depending....

TenTigers
09-14-2010, 07:21 PM
What, you don't have an extra little arm growing out of your torso???
no, but I got a third leg!
(that's why they call me, "Tripod!")



yeah, right. who am I kidding. I'm jewish fer chrissakes.
Ya know what happens when a jew with a h@rd-on walks into a wall?
He hurts his nose.

Yum Cha
09-14-2010, 10:41 PM
no, but I got a third leg!
(that's why they call me, "Tripod!")

yeah, right. who am I kidding. I'm jewish fer chrissakes.
Ya know what happens when a jew with a h@rd-on walks into a wall?
He hurts his nose.

Ach Yingel, its not the swantz the shiksa's want, its the shabbat Dinner!

sanjuro_ronin
09-15-2010, 05:56 AM
Yea, I don't think anybody is saying Tyson is a SPM guy, or even close, but it always gets my attention when I see common techniques or movements used across different types or styles.

The old saying is that all roads lead to the same place. Nice to see some common intersections...

And watching Tyson do 'stance training' was just plain fun....I mean, being that its so useless and all....:p

I would give Tyson more of a Hung Kuen moniker than SPM, but to be honest, IF short hand fighting had a protoype of what it would look like in the ring, it would be Tyson in modern times and Marciano in the past.

What do you mean by useless in regards to Tysons's "stance training" ( though I don't recall him doing ANY of that in the clips).

TenTigers
09-15-2010, 09:07 AM
What do you mean by useless in regards to Tysons's "stance training" ( though I don't recall him doing ANY of that in the clips).
I think he was being sarcastic, aimed at the TCMA haters.

MysteriousPower
09-15-2010, 09:38 AM
I would give Tyson more of a Hung Kuen moniker than SPM, but to be honest, IF short hand fighting had a protoype of what it would look like in the ring, it would be Tyson in modern times and Marciano in the past.

What do you mean by useless in regards to Tysons's "stance training" ( though I don't recall him doing ANY of that in the clips).

Mantis people have not actually fought so no one knows what it "looks" like. The ones that did fight are dead, coincidentally did not tape it or the technology was not available, or they were so sure of themselves that they did not have to 'prove' it to people that their twirly arm drills produced real skiils and do not care to show the "real stuff." And when they do people complain that that is not what it is supposed to be. Tyson has the short power, infighting, speed, etc, etc and mantis people say that is not mantis.

I think if mantis people actually sparred more often they would see that they are doing kickboxing but with a different twist. Why they cannot accept this baffles me. Instead of showing compliant drills all over youtube why doesn't a mantis master show us once and for all what mantis fighting/mantis fighters are supposed to look like when fighting. I think the big secret to most of these styles is that...they do not want the secret out that they are not special, do not actually look different, are not actually different, and that it is subjective on what mantis actually looks/feels/used in fighting.

I heard a saying once. An art person was saying that the photograph ruined color painting because it made people think that grass is "green" when it is actually different shades of green and other colors depending from which angle you are painting it. BUT not one person argues, in a rape case for example, that if someone has footage or a photograph of the rapist in the act that it is not good evidence. Funny how that works out. It is the same with all of these styles of tcma. A lot of the ways people talk about the are subjective but video is objective in what is shows.


In Chan Hok Fu's deathmatch video he was slap boxing. People argue that just because he looks like that it does not mean the art was meant to look like that. He was a master and teacher so that is a bad argument. And it is too bad that no one else put their fights up on video to prove people wrong. Even if every Chan Hok Fu student put up matches looking like his, you tcma people would still argue that that is not what the art was meant to look like. But how can that be if the grandmaster looks like that? Why are you guys stuck on this ideal that tcma is NOT brawling, is not a different form of kickboxing?

Jorge
09-15-2010, 09:39 AM
I would give Tyson more of a Hung Kuen moniker than SPM, but to be honest, IF short hand fighting had a protoype of what it would look like in the ring, it would be Tyson in modern times and Marciano in the past.

What do you mean by useless in regards to Tysons's "stance training" ( though I don't recall him doing ANY of that in the clips).

Its in the clip I posted of Tyson. Somewhere around 1:00 min mark. He's training his front step with his ankles tied.

TenTigers
09-15-2010, 09:47 AM
Mantis people have not actually fought so no one knows what it "looks" like. And when they do people complain that that is not what it is supposed to be. Tyson has the short power, infighting, speed, etc, etc and mantis people say that is not mantis.

I think if mantis people actually sparred more often they would see that they are doing kickboxing but with a different twist. Why they cannot accept this baffles me. Instead of showing compliant drills all over youtube why doesn't a mantis master show us once and for all what mantis fighting/mantis fighters are supposed to look like when fighting. I think the big secret to most of these styles is that...they do not want the secret out that they are not special, do not actually look different, are not actually different, and that it is subjective on what mantis actually looks/feels/used in fighting.

Why are you guys stuck on this ideal that tcma is NOT brawling, is not a different form of kickboxing?

Hey Mysterious, why do you give a sh1t?
let it go, dude.

sanjuro_ronin
09-15-2010, 09:59 AM
Its in the clip I posted of Tyson. Somewhere around 1:00 min mark. He's training his front step with his ankles tied.

Oh that, yeah its a classical boxing drill to ensure one does not OVER step and OVER reach.
Works really well too, I used it myself when I was younger, inside fighters tend to have to have shorter steps and that is what is needed to move in and around the opponent.
I swear to you, IF Tyson was Chinese and had a "mantis hand" and punched with PE fists, the short hand crowd would be salivating.
:D

Jorge
09-15-2010, 10:39 AM
Oh that, yeah its a classical boxing drill to ensure one does not OVER step and OVER reach.
Works really well too, I used it myself when I was younger, inside fighters tend to have to have shorter steps and that is what is needed to move in and around the opponent.
I swear to you, IF Tyson was Chinese and had a "mantis hand" and punched with PE fists, the short hand crowd would be salivating.
:D

We also do that drill in the kung fu I train.

His approach/intent is excellent for short hand. Very aggressive and in your face, not allowing to breath for a second. Thats why his short hand worked so well, he didn't go in the ring to box with his opponent. He went in the ring to finish the fight as quick as possible without giving his opponent a chance. He fought his fight! I love Mike Tyson and my Sifu always comments on his short power and intent. I'm tellin you, Cus made a Monster outta Mike!LOLOL

Frost
09-15-2010, 02:09 PM
Oh that, yeah its a classical boxing drill to ensure one does not OVER step and OVER reach.
Works really well too, I used it myself when I was younger, inside fighters tend to have to have shorter steps and that is what is needed to move in and around the opponent.
I swear to you, IF Tyson was Chinese and had a "mantis hand" and punched with PE fists, the short hand crowd would be salivating.
:D

maybe but would he have developed those skills if he had trained short hand and not boxing?

Does anyone else find it strange that people on here have to adopt outside heroes as examples of how their style would look in real combat...what with this and the whole wing chun machaida thing that went on a while ago?

I mean if you want to look and fight like Tyson did why not train like he did? After all he developed the skills people say represent their style without ever having trained that style..........

Violent Designs
09-15-2010, 02:29 PM
maybe but would he have developed those skills if he had trained short hand and not boxing?

Does anyone else find it strange that people on here have to adopt outside heroes as examples of how their style would look in real combat...what with this and the whole wing chun machaida thing that went on a while ago?

I mean if you want to look and fight like tyson did why not train like he did? After all he developed the skills people say represent their style without ever having trained that style..........

this is ****ing gold.

Yum Cha
09-15-2010, 02:32 PM
I think he was being sarcastic, aimed at the TCMA haters.

Well, maybe, just a teensie, weensie bit....

But, that stepping training had the same shuffle as lots of things we do.

I think Tyson gets a lot of his short power from twisting and rotating, as opposed to exploding from the centre outward. i.e, his hooks.

He chambers: often while bobbing bends down at the knees like he's picking up a bucket of bricks, then WHAM up and out it comes.

Jorge
09-15-2010, 02:55 PM
maybe but would he have developed those skills if he had trained short hand and not boxing?

Does anyone else find it strange that people on here have to adopt outside heroes as examples of how their style would look in real combat...what with this and the whole wing chun machaida thing that went on a while ago?

I mean if you want to look and fight like Tyson did why not train like he did? After all he developed the skills people say represent their style without ever having trained that style..........

You have boxers that have been training all their life and can't punch like Mike did. Even in the Pros! So whatcha saying?


Because then it would be boxing which has it limitations. Dont get it twisted, Mike Tyson might have short power and certain aspects might be similar to our, but its not exactly the same, nor is the energy the same. Who doesn't look up to a young Mike Tyson for his intent and power? As a short hand player I can definitely relate to his approach. A killer intent/Sat is very big in the Hakka\Short hand arts. I think you reading into things a bit too much.


Yum Cha,
He also rises and falls, but he does not explode from the center, because he doesn't work the spine like we do.

Yum Cha
09-15-2010, 03:28 PM
Yum Cha,
He also rises and falls, but he does not explode from the center, because he doesn't work the spine like we do.

Spot on Buby, I was thinking the same thing, just thought it was a bit technical for general comment.

Frost-
I really expected more, I mean, we talked about it time and again, I've been up front, and never hesited to admit it, and I just can believe you don't pay attention enough to get it....

I'm not a Tyson nut rider, I'm an Ali nut rider.

I don't want to have this conversation again, understand??

TenTigers
09-15-2010, 06:41 PM
because it's all about attributes, baby.
Tyson doesn't fight like SPM, but he posesses some of the attributes, so we can use him as a good example of those attributes.
Any further questions should be submitted to the
Department of Redundancy Department

Frost
09-16-2010, 12:12 AM
Spot on Buby, I was thinking the same thing, just thought it was a bit technical for general comment.

Frost-
I really expected more, I mean, we talked about it time and again, I've been up front, and never hesited to admit it, and I just can believe you don't pay attention enough to get it....

I'm not a Tyson nut rider, I'm an Ali nut rider.

I don't want to have this conversation again, understand??

ok maybe I can put it a different way, if guys like tyson (and other like ray sefo the K1 fighte)r can express qualities people seek without doing the same training, does that make you look at how you train and make you think about changing it?

If i came across as being an as% my apologies its just in the gym I come from we change our training all the time, case in point a BJJ world champ came down did a seminar and rolled with us and as a result the coach changed a large part of our taking the back game, to us its no big deal so i wondered if others in a more traditional art felt the same way?

sanjuro_ronin
09-16-2010, 05:52 AM
maybe but would he have developed those skills if he had trained short hand and not boxing?

Does anyone else find it strange that people on here have to adopt outside heroes as examples of how their style would look in real combat...what with this and the whole wing chun machaida thing that went on a while ago?

I mean if you want to look and fight like Tyson did why not train like he did? After all he developed the skills people say represent their style without ever having trained that style..........

To expand on what TT said, what we see when a fighters fights are the attriubues of how he trained and HIS style of fighting.
As much as we want to say that fighter "A" exemplifies MA "A", it doesn't work like that.
Tyson is NOT an example of a prototypical boxer or boxing in general, he is an example of how Cus and company trained him.


BUT, you have a very valid point as to why we should question why we "need" a Tyson to exemplify a TCMA systems attributes.

sanjuro_ronin
09-16-2010, 05:54 AM
ok maybe I can put it a different way, if guys like tyson (and other like ray sefo the K1 fighte)r can express qualities people seek without doing the same training, does that make you look at how you train and make you think about changing it?

If i came across as being an as% my apologies its just in the gym I come from we change our training all the time, case in point a BJJ world champ came down did a seminar and rolled with us and as a result the coach changed a large part of our taking the back game, to us its no big deal so i wondered if others in a more traditional art felt the same way?

Chane, for the better, is ALWAYS the goal of every MA.
Sometimes people forget that.
A system developed 100 years ago or even 50 years ago, was not presented with the same "problems" that MA systems are presented now, as such, MA systems must adapt, change where needed or become obsolete.

TenTigers
09-16-2010, 06:26 AM
agreed. Tools is tools. Any method that can be used to better develop them is always brought in. I think one would be a fool not to.
(has anyone seen the Far Side comic where these cavement are holding meat in their hands and holding them over the fire, burning themselves..off to the side they see another caveman with his meat on a stick holding it over his fire. The caption says, "Hey, look what Thag do!")
Supposedly Bruce Lee developed the focus mits and kicking shield-the sheild taken from football.
One of the methods for short power striking, I actually learned from boxing. Hitting the heavybag so it pops, rather than trying to power through it.
Watching a class at Tiger Schullman/s I noticed they were teaching the same power issuing for their jab and cross-snapping power strikes. So, of course, I added that into my repetoire, as well as some of their kicking drills and numbering of the hand sequences.
My hook punch was modified after meeting a guy who did Jailhouse Rock (not 52, but a variation he picked up in Elmira-it's really short power!)
My grappling comes from anyone who I come in contact with. Mostly SJ, but I have brought in BJJ, NHB,Greco-Roman,collegiate and JKD guys into my school to share what they know.
One of my students is an amature Thai fighter-you bet yer azz he teaches kicking drills.

Jorge
09-16-2010, 06:57 AM
BUT, you have a very valid point as to why we should question why we "need" a Tyson to exemplify a TCMA systems attributes.

Because its a person we can all relate too thats on video.

I need new software, you guys know of a software that allows me to strip clips off a CD and VHS tapes and add them to my puter. I have old fights of myself that I want to convert and save on my puter.

MysteriousPower
09-16-2010, 07:05 AM
because it's all about attributes, baby.
Tyson doesn't fight like SPM, but he posesses some of the attributes, so we can use him as a good example of those attributes.
Any further questions should be submitted to the
Department of Redundancy Department

So tell us how a spm person fights? You know what? You are always doing that. Point us in the direction of a SPM person fighting while using spm attributes? Frost brought up a great point that there are numerous examples of these so called attributes being used in other styles but never an actual spm person using them.

Why is that?

TenTigers
09-16-2010, 07:15 AM
the obvious reason is, because it doesn't exist!
You've discovered the great secret Bruce LeRoy!
You have found the technique that doesn't exist,
used by fighters that don't fight!
You are now the Master!

MysteriousPower
09-16-2010, 08:56 AM
the obvious reason is, because it doesn't exist!
You've discovered the great secret Bruce LeRoy!
You have found the technique that doesn't exist,
used by fighters that don't fight!
You are now the Master!

I am glad you finally admitted it. Now I can leave you alone...unless you start spouting more false impressions of your art. SPM people are not fighters. They MAY have been but they are not now so all the deadliness talk is nullified.

Now that you have come to your realization maybe you can be one of the few that brings the supposed fighting prowess of spm into the light.

TenTigers
09-16-2010, 09:28 AM
I would, but there are obstacles in my way.
Like, that guy Sho Nuff....

sanjuro_ronin
09-16-2010, 10:14 AM
Lets make one thing clear here, a fighter is someone that fights, actively and regularly.
Unless one is doing that, he/she is not a fighter so that basically means that, outside the pro rankings and amateur rankings, there aren't that many fighters in sport systems and outside of TMA that work in security or Law or the military, there aren't many either.

Yum Cha
09-16-2010, 04:25 PM
@Frost - Your point is not lost. Depth vs Breadth and the balance between is enough to keep you busy a lifetime.

@ Ten - Speaking of SPM fighting, I have some memories about some night time action in Central Park, NY couple of years back? Got pretty hairy from what I understand, over an extended period?


On another point:

I'm amazed by the Gen Y belief that the entire history of the world is on YouTube.

Dial it up and you get Ali's streetfight with two blokes in NOLA.

Dial it up and you get Yip Man and CLC face to face in the Tea House.

Dial it up and you get Ip Shui killing Japanese in Guangzhou *****houses.

Dial it up and get all the worlds' streetfights divided by year and style....
- also by skill level of the fighters....

And of course, only the absolute best practitioners post on YouTube, so if you see it there, it must be right, and very high level....

sanjuro_ronin
09-17-2010, 05:08 AM
RE: youtube.
It may not have some of the best, but it has enough of the "everyday man" to give a very good representation of a system.
Lets not sell it short, if people post it, it's because they think it is "good" and that says a lot dude.
Know what I mean?

Fact is, the question that was asked is a legit one.
The answer is strange because we CAN'T say that there are no legit SPM guys posting clips, heck this very thread is about a legit SPM master and remember the James Cama thread too?

Fact is, we do have clips of the "real" SPM, in demos, in forms, in drills, but not in sparring and certainly not in competition and certainly not in full contact.
Yet we have many in demos and "advertising" clips.

TenTigers
09-17-2010, 07:01 AM
I think it's a matter of time. You need to realise that SPM was until very recently, an extremely closed system. Originally, it was not even taught to non-Hakka people, then non-Asians. Only as recently as the late 70's and early 80's people such as Gin Foon Mark, Henry Yee, Ip Shui, and a few others opened the "bamboo curtain."
Because of this, SPM is still a very new style-new in terms of public knowledge, not in age. It attracts very few people, due to its lack of publicity, (there is no SPM Bruce Lee, no Lam Sang movies,etc) and forms that to the unititiated, seem boring, and peculiar.
For the most part, younger people are not attracted to SPM. Usually more mature, experienced people seem drawn to the style.
So, you take the small number of practitioners, and out of them find guys that are 18-28, tough, aggressive, skilled, and want to train to fight full contact in the ring, suddenly it becomes pretty obvious.

Add to this, another dilema; the teacher that does not want his students to compete until they achieve what he deems an acceptable level to represent his teachings.
Or the guys who may be exceptionally good, but for their own personal reasons, have absolutely zero desire to compete.

Give it a few more years. The recent surge in MMA has caused many TCMA schools to start changing their conditioning programs, don gear and fight more, and start competing. Starting with the more commercial schools, who do this out of neccesity, or face losing their students to the MMA school down the block, to the smaller schools, who want to push their students a bit harder, it's a trickle down type of thing.

MysteriousPower
09-17-2010, 07:35 AM
I think it's a matter of time. You need to realise that SPM was until very recently, an extremely closed system. Originally, it was not even taught to non-Hakka people, then non-Asians. Only as recently as the late 70's and early 80's people such as Gin Foon Mark, Henry Yee, Ip Shui, and a few others opened the "bamboo curtain."
Because of this, SPM is still a very new style-new in terms of public knowledge, not in age. It attracts very few people, due to its lack of publicity, (there is no SPM Bruce Lee, no Lam Sang movies,etc) and forms that to the unititiated, seem boring, and peculiar.
For the most part, younger people are not attracted to SPM. Usually more mature, experienced people seem drawn to the style.
So, you take the small number of practitioners, and out of them find guys that are 18-28, tough, aggressive, skilled, and want to train to fight full contact in the ring, suddenly it becomes pretty obvious.

Add to this, another dilema; the teacher that does not want his students to compete until they achieve what he deems an acceptable level to represent his teachings.
Or the guys who may be exceptionally good, but for their own personal reasons, have absolutely zero desire to compete.

Give it a few more years. The recent surge in MMA has caused many TCMA schools to start changing their conditioning programs, don gear and fight more, and start competing. Starting with the more commercial schools, who do this out of neccesity, or face losing their students to the MMA school down the block, to the smaller schools, who want to push their students a bit harder, it's a trickle down type of thing.

This is a tired argument. SPM has been around for hundreds of years so it does not matter if it was a "secret" system. With hundreds of years under its belt practitioners should have refined and documented how to learn to fight using this system. How long does it take?? All you are left with are the same tired drills and forms. BJJ has not been around that long and look at their students competing.

Here is a good analogy. You have a high school where the normal kids do well. We will call them the bjj crowd. Then you have the alternative school, the school where the dummies and fuk ups go because they cannot handle the real world. These are the spm people. Everyone is always throwing out the politically correct crap that these kids are the same as everyone else and that they just need a little more time and help. Guess what SPM? While you are waiting around another 20 years the world is passing you by and you do not seem to see it happening.

How many more years do you have to tell lies to students.

You' "The day you learn how to fight is coming. Keep at the circle wavy hand drills and you are guaranteed to beat a stronger resisting opponent. Lam Sang did it."

Student- "When did Lam Sang do it?"

You- Many times. He was highly respected for beating bigger men(who probably were not really trying to hurt him). Bruce Lee visited him and got beaten.

STudent- Any pics or vids?

Teacher- Of course not! It was a secret Chinese society where you would be put to death for telling the secrets.

This sh!t makes me sick.

And when these spm people start to finally compete they will look just like glorified kickboxers who are not as skilled as regular kickboxers.

TenTigers
09-17-2010, 10:43 AM
Here's a question for you. How long have you studied SPM?
You seem to speak of it as if you think you know it, yet your examples sound as if you've actually never had any real experience. Are you judging this system based on actual experience, or youtube wisdom?

Frost
09-17-2010, 11:04 AM
RE: youtube.
It may not have some of the best, but it has enough of the "everyday man" to give a very good representation of a system.
Lets not sell it short, if people post it, it's because they think it is "good" and that says a lot dude.
Know what I mean?

Fact is, the question that was asked is a legit one.
The answer is strange because we CAN'T say that there are no legit SPM guys posting clips, heck this very thread is about a legit SPM master and remember the James Cama thread too?

Fact is, we do have clips of the "real" SPM, in demos, in forms, in drills, but not in sparring and certainly not in competition and certainly not in full contact.
Yet we have many in demos and "advertising" clips.

and no one has answered this question you raise, people talk around the point saying it has been a closed doo system only recently open to the public, or that people with real skill aren't interested in filming themselves etc etc etc, but that does not wash for a number of reasons:

1) People have been putting videos out, articles and you tube clips for well over a decade so it’s not like they are adverse to publicity

secondly people like Paul whitrod and the Ips have been teaching openly for decades

so it is out there and its not that secret, and those that have skill seem happy to put demos of themselves and their students out there for all to see...yet not one has been able to record actual sparring or a fight,

There is something wrong there

TenTigers
09-17-2010, 12:55 PM
well, it may be a tired argument, but that's the only logical reason I can think of. Sorry.
- You feel it is a tired argument because you aren't hearing what you want to hear, and this has you upset.Sorry.
You have no faith in SPM because all you have seen is forms and a few drills, and from your limited experience, you now "Know it."
Well, like talking to a smug adolescent, there really is nothing anyone can say to you because you already know everything.
So...
Does anyone really believe that the reason TCMA guys aren't in MMA type fights is because they all think their arts are innadequate? And yet they stay? I think my IQ just went down a few points simply by saying it.
Sure, I can understand LARPERS, or people wanting a safe little haven, but that does not represent the whole of TCMA. (just most of the white folks...ok, I should stop reading Bawang's posts..) To actually believe that everyone who studies TCMA is just lying to himself, afraid to tell themselves the awful truth...across the board. EVERYONE.??? I mean, really.

Yum Cha
09-17-2010, 01:02 PM
RE: youtube.
It may not have some of the best, but it has enough of the "everyday man" to give a very good representation of a system.
Lets not sell it short, if people post it, it's because they think it is "good" and that says a lot dude.
Know what I mean?


Hey Sanjuro, who doesn't love youtube?? If the good lord had made anything better, he would have kept it for himself.

BUT, I'm just talking about the sort who think the history of the world is documented on YouTube, and if its not there, it doesn't exist.

So, nobody know, or is willing to talk about what happened in Central Park NY couple of years back with the SPM boys?

Is Whitrod the one that had the fight with Dr Wong?

Faruq
09-17-2010, 01:24 PM
Hey Sanjuro, who doesn't love youtube?? If the good lord had made anything better, he would have kept it for himself.

BUT, I'm just talking about the sort who think the history of the world is documented on YouTube, and if its not there, it doesn't exist.

So, nobody know, or is willing to talk about what happened in Central Park NY couple of years back with the SPM boys?

Is Whitrod the one that had the fight with Dr Wong?

SPM people had to have competed in the Taiwan Bloodbath mentioned on PakMei.net. But only private collectors who don't want to exhibit the footage must have it, because otherwise more than 29 seconds of it would be on youtube, lol. And by the way, in the "Needle Through Brick" documentary SPM was well thought of by the masters of the other styles in Borneo. They called it "deadly" if I remember correctly.

But what's this that happened in Central Park with Dr Wong and these SPM guys? You can't drop a bombshell like that without explaining!

sanjuro_ronin
09-17-2010, 01:32 PM
and no one has answered this question you raise, people talk around the point saying it has been a closed doo system only recently open to the public, or that people with real skill aren't interested in filming themselves etc etc etc, but that does not wash for a number of reasons:

1) People have been putting videos out, articles and you tube clips for well over a decade so it’s not like they are adverse to publicity

secondly people like Paul whitrod and the Ips have been teaching openly for decades

so it is out there and its not that secret, and those that have skill seem happy to put demos of themselves and their students out there for all to see...yet not one has been able to record actual sparring or a fight,

There is something wrong there

SPM is not oriented towards competition so you well rarely, if ever, see it there.
But that doesn't matter to hard contact training.

I have noticed that most system, to not say all, that do these "slappy combos" in training and demos, end up simply "kick boxing" when doing full contact.
see: kenpo, WC, kajukenbo et al.

sanjuro_ronin
09-17-2010, 01:35 PM
Hey Sanjuro, who doesn't love youtube?? If the good lord had made anything better, he would have kept it for himself.

BUT, I'm just talking about the sort who think the history of the world is documented on YouTube, and if its not there, it doesn't exist.

So, nobody know, or is willing to talk about what happened in Central Park NY couple of years back with the SPM boys?

Is Whitrod the one that had the fight with Dr Wong?

My SPM clan is about 6 people, including me.
Sifu Wong teaches his family and myself and a few others and he teaches me becuause his brother, who is kung kuen, taught me and he was around one day to pick up his son, who was doing HK and liked how I was helping him with some counters against grappling moves.

I know nothing of what you speak of.

Frost
09-17-2010, 02:46 PM
well, it may be a tired argument, but that's the only logical reason I can think of. Sorry.
- You feel it is a tired argument because you aren't hearing what you want to hear, and this has you upset.Sorry.
You have no faith in SPM because all you have seen is forms and a few drills, and from your limited experience, you now "Know it."
Well, like talking to a smug adolescent, there really is nothing anyone can say to you because you already know everything.
So...
Does anyone really believe that the reason TCMA guys aren't in MMA type fights is because they all think their arts are innadequate? And yet they stay? I think my IQ just went down a few points simply by saying it.
Sure, I can understand LARPERS, or people wanting a safe little haven, but that does not represent the whole of TCMA. (just most of the white folks...ok, I should stop reading Bawang's posts..) To actually believe that everyone who studies TCMA is just lying to himself, afraid to tell themselves the awful truth...across the board. EVERYONE.??? I mean, really.

Don’t worry I am sure your IQ hasn't changed that much

Who knows everything and who’s being smug, where did I say your art sucked or I know it all, please quote me being smug or saying anything bad about the art...........and who’s upset (don’t project on me mate)

I am simply asking a logical question, if people don’t want to put clips up that fine, but it is illogical to put clips up demoing sets, sticky hands and the like but then to say the real guys don’t want to show their stuff, they are showing part of their art and how its trained so what’s stopping them from showing it all?

Your argument is simply illogical, if they didn’t want to show their art or didn’t care why they are putting up clips like the ones we have seen

TenTigers
09-17-2010, 03:19 PM
Don’t worry I am sure your IQ hasn't changed that much

Who knows everything and who’s being smug, where did I say your art sucked or I know it all, please quote me being smug or saying anything bad about the art...........and who’s upset (don’t project on me mate)

I am simply asking a logical question, if people don’t want to put clips up that fine, but it is illogical to put clips up demoing sets, sticky hands and the like but then to say the real guys don’t want to show their stuff, they are showing part of their art and how its trained so what’s stopping them from showing it all?

Your argument is simply illogical, if they didn’t want to show their art or didn’t care why they are putting up clips like the ones we have seen

Sorry for that, Frost-I wasn't referring to you. I think your query is very logical, and I really don't have a good answer for it. I have often asked myself similar questions.

MysteriousPower
09-17-2010, 04:25 PM
Here's a question for you. How long have you studied SPM?
You seem to speak of it as if you think you know it, yet your examples sound as if you've actually never had any real experience. Are you judging this system based on actual experience, or youtube wisdom?

I do not need to have ever studied spm to see the holes in your arguments. Even if I had been studying spm with a "real deal" teacher I bet I would still get taught the same drills that you got taught. No thanks. I can get my a$$ kicked just fine by walking around in a dress. Why spend years doing your drills to find out I cannot even spar. Atleast the dress situation would be instantaneous and would not waste years of my life.

Since no one puts the "real" stuff on YouTube I can only go by the crap that is present. Since you believe you are getting the real stuff put up a video showing something different than the same old stuff. Or stop arguing for the losing side.

TenTigers
09-17-2010, 06:00 PM
I do not need to have ever studied spm to see the holes in your arguments. Even if I had been studying spm with a "real deal" teacher I bet I would still get taught the same drills that you got taught. No thanks. Since no one puts the "real" stuff on YouTube I can only go by the crap that is present. .

(sigh...) mmm'k...you have yourself a nice evening MP. I'd like to continue this conversation, but I'm due back on Earth....

MysteriousPower
09-18-2010, 07:37 AM
(sigh...) mmm'k...you have yourself a nice evening MP. I'd like to continue this conversation, but I'm due back on Earth....

You are not back on Earth yet and are still in lala land with the rest of tue dope smoking hippies fantasy kung Fu hippies.

Jorge
09-18-2010, 08:13 AM
You are not back on Earth yet and are still in lala land with the rest of tue dope smoking hippies fantasy kung Fu hippies.


Well, I'm gonna smoke a fat blunt of God Bud right now! This one here is for my son MysteriousPower aka CHI! Thats what we call him at home.:D

TenTigers
09-18-2010, 08:26 AM
Well, I'm gonna smoke a fat blunt of God Bud right now! This one here is for my son MysteriousPower aka CHI! Thats what we call him at home.:D
ah, that explains it.

jo
09-18-2010, 08:26 AM
These two gentlemen are good examples of SPM practicioners.

http://www.youtube.com/user/JookLumFist

http://www.youtube.com/user/shengchenfan#p/u

-jo

Frost
09-18-2010, 09:43 AM
Sorry for that, Frost-I wasn't referring to you. I think your query is very logical, and I really don't have a good answer for it. I have often asked myself similar questions.

sorry shouldn't have gone off on one :o

Jorge
09-18-2010, 10:51 AM
These two gentlemen are good examples of SPM practicioners.

http://www.youtube.com/user/JookLumFist

http://www.youtube.com/user/shengchenfan#p/u

-jo

Thats whats up! Thanks Jo!


http://www.youtube.com/user/shengchenfan#p/u/24/cdZFT1u7Exw

jo
09-18-2010, 11:41 AM
Neither of these guys learned that in a public class.

- jo

MysteriousPower
09-18-2010, 01:46 PM
Neither of these guys learned that in a public class.

- jo

You are making it sound like they learned something special in their deadly privat class. How is this stuff any different or better than all the other compliant southern hand drills?

charp choi
09-18-2010, 02:29 PM
what about this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyNmV2Y43ko&feature=related

or this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obUQNsv-6gU&feature=related

charp choi
09-18-2010, 03:00 PM
and these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wMcRBQgD6s&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAPdWBwbR0A

jo
09-18-2010, 03:47 PM
You are making it sound like they learned something special in their deadly privat class. How is this stuff any different or better than all the other compliant southern hand drills?

I never said "deadly" and was not referring to "compliant" drills...but since you brought up the topic.

If you pair up two unskilled people to do a drill, chances are they will never learn how to do it properly and to get the maximum benefit. They will, however continue to show up in class, pay the monthly fee's and be content to be led by the nose and learn nothing more than dancing.

The only way drills work work is if one person has a greater understanding of what is or should be happening during the drill, that way they can ramp up power, speed and technique in a controlled way so the other person can get the maximum benefit of the drill.

What these guys got was INDIVIDUAL INSTRUCTION time with their teachers so thier techniques could develop....and it shows. ;-)

- jo

Syn7
09-18-2010, 05:14 PM
Well, I'm gonna smoke a fat blunt of God Bud right now! This one here is for my son MysteriousPower aka CHI! Thats what we call him at home.:D

forealz???

Syn7
09-18-2010, 05:37 PM
what about this:]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyNmV2Y43ko&feature=related

thanx... lol... made my day... thats some funny shlt...


the end with the old man is the best part... guy loves to punch mhimself in the gonads while chain smoking... all day long im sure...

Yum Cha
09-19-2010, 01:54 AM
thanx... lol... made my day... thats some funny shlt...


the end with the old man is the best part... guy loves to punch mhimself in the gonads while chain smoking... all day long im sure...

That vid of father and son Ip is priceless......

Frost
09-19-2010, 03:03 AM
I never said "deadly" and was not referring to "compliant" drills...but since you brought up the topic.

If you pair up two unskilled people to do a drill, chances are they will never learn how to do it properly and to get the maximum benefit. They will, however continue to show up in class, pay the monthly fee's and be content to be led by the nose and learn nothing more than dancing.

The only way drills work work is if one person has a greater understanding of what is or should be happening during the drill, that way they can ramp up power, speed and technique in a controlled way so the other person can get the maximum benefit of the drill.

What these guys got was INDIVIDUAL INSTRUCTION time with their teachers so thier techniques could develop....and it shows. ;-)

- jo

and again this is the problem, people are happy to post demos and drills but no one will post actual sparring or fighting clips, your clips actually make the situation even worse, it seems there are whole schools out there willing to post dozens of clips (so much for it still being a secret style) but none of the art in free flow fighting

MysteriousPower
09-19-2010, 04:38 AM
and again this is the problem, people are happy to post demos and drills but no one will post actual sparring or fighting clips, your clips actually make the situation even worse, it seems there are whole schools out there willing to post dozens of clips (so much for it still being a secret style) but none of the art in free flow fighting


That is what I was thinking. It does not matter if a grandmaster is doing the compliant drill or a novice of two days because it is still the same kind of training. The idea that somehow a "secret" drill(actually just a different variation or a drill emphasizing a certain skill/force) trained millions of times along with all the others will make you an effective fighter is a myth. Cameras have brought this to light. Now deadly practitioners cannot claim to have fought with no proof other than, "he probably died from his wounds".

Frost
09-19-2010, 05:03 AM
That is what I was thinking. It does not matter if a grandmaster is doing the compliant drill or a novice of two days because it is still the same kind of training. The idea that somehow a "secret" drill(actually just a different variation or a drill emphasizing a certain skill/force) trained millions of times along with all the others will make you an effective fighter is a myth. Cameras have brought this to light. Now deadly practitioners cannot claim to have fought with no proof other than, "he probably died from his wounds".

the drills might or might not work, without posting actual sparring of fighting clips we have no way of knowing, my main point was people seem happy to post clips of drills and sets so the art isn't that secret so why not post clips of sparring

charp choi
09-19-2010, 07:20 AM
I did post a clip of elbow sparring using headguards in one of my last posts.
I'll keep trawling for footage that i will post but there is very little available.
Film though cannot show force/power. The chy sau drill in chow gar looks a doddle to do when watching it but people always get a surprise when they try it for themslves. They end up tired and aching.
Here's some staff sparring from Chows mantis:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i447eFlYZxY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaDBNh3IGLA

jo
09-19-2010, 10:07 AM
Nice to see them actually hitting each other, but their technique is more cudgel/quarterstaff than SPM.

The guy in this video keeps the energy up in the rattaan staff and continuously hits, just like SPM hands should.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQ26eTK9tG8

-jo

Frost
09-19-2010, 11:05 AM
I did post a clip of elbow sparring using headguards in one of my last posts.
I'll keep trawling for footage that i will post but there is very little available.
Film though cannot show force/power. The chy sau drill in chow gar looks a doddle to do when watching it but people always get a surprise when they try it for themslves. They end up tired and aching.
Here's some staff sparring from Chows mantis:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i447eFlYZxY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaDBNh3IGLA

all drills can be tiring, but without then translating those drills into sparring how do we know if the drills actually serve a use?

Syn7
09-19-2010, 12:05 PM
if there were clips we would see them... there arent clips because it doesnt exist... tcma can hide behind a cloak of secrecy but when the sh!t hits the fan and it comes time to show and prove that cloak wont protect you...

theres a reason we dont see tcma sportfight... and the VERY VERY few we do see enter the ring, fight like kickboxers... not like they are classically trained... if there were tcma cats sportfighting we would see the clips... somebody would film it and tcma cats would be showing everyone they could find that was willing to look at it because they are sick of being labelled as ineffective...

and the ego in tcma is extraordinary, so i dont buy this whole "the good tcma guys are too humble to show their skills in public"... yeah fukcing right... i dont buy it...

TenTigers
09-19-2010, 01:47 PM
well, then what? Do you actually think that across the board TCMA does not work, and everybody who practices it is totally delusional?
Does that also make jiu-jutsu (not BJJ-which really isn't a complete jj system, but a specialization of ne-waza) Aikido, JMA,Silat,KMA, Kali, etc completely useless?
Are you saying that out of everything, only MMaA a mix of muay thai,. bjj, and boxing, is the only viable technique?

Syn7
09-19-2010, 02:21 PM
not at all... ive said many times that i believe that its the training methods, not the techniques that create this delusional complacency... if all you do is forms, you might be suprised fighting somebody with experience... you'll get the health aspects of the art, the longevity the blood flow all of that, but not so much the combat aspects... and thats okay, if you recognize it as such...

if you spar hard and take all commers, all styles, you can probably fight... i see no reason why tcma fundamentals cant be applied in the cage either... again, im critical about the way people train, not so much what they train...

i practice bak mei, love it, and i see no reason why i cant use it sportfighting or in the street... if i use it in sparring the way we do for muay thai then its golden... you just need real world experience to it any of it to practical use against a skilled opponent... i dont feel someone whos done forms and forms alone for ten years stands a chance against somebody whos tyrained hard, sparred hard for two years... less even... its just a fact of life...

thats why groups, like buk sing guys for example, have a reps of being effective, because they actually used it...

i dont feel any f what ive said is irrational or overly biased... ive really tried to be as objective as possible... esspecially having been on both sides of the whole grappling vs tcma argument... i know for a fact that people who dont have takedown defence end up on their back 99% of the time... i also know that swift fluid chinese boxing can be devastating to the most skilled opponents... so why not take the best of both worlds and actually apply it as a means of finding out how things really work...

jo
09-19-2010, 02:52 PM
Are you saying that out of everything, only MMaA a mix of muay thai,. bjj, and boxing, is the only viable technique?

Must be true....even with all the rules associated with those sports.

-jo

TenTigers
09-19-2010, 06:11 PM
not at all... ive said many times that i believe that its the training methods, not the techniques that create this delusional complacency... if all you do is forms, you might be suprised fighting somebody with experience... you'll get the health aspects of the art, the longevity the blood flow all of that, but not so much the combat aspects... and thats okay, if you recognize it as such...

if you spar hard and take all commers, all styles, you can probably fight... i see no reason why tcma fundamentals cant be applied in the cage either... again, im critical about the way people train, not so much what they train...

i practice bak mei, love it, and i see no reason why i cant use it sportfighting or in the street... if i use it in sparring the way we do for muay thai then its golden... you just need real world experience to it any of it to practical use against a skilled opponent... i dont feel someone whos done forms and forms alone for ten years stands a chance against somebody whos tyrained hard, sparred hard for two years... less even... its just a fact of life...

thats why groups, like buk sing guys for example, have a reps of being effective, because they actually used it...

i dont feel any f what ive said is irrational or overly biased... ive really tried to be as objective as possible... esspecially having been on both sides of the whole grappling vs tcma argument... i know for a fact that people who dont have takedown defence end up on their back 99% of the time... i also know that swift fluid chinese boxing can be devastating to the most skilled opponents... so why not take the best of both worlds and actually apply it as a means of finding out how things really work...
don't ya hate those guys who feel they have to quote the entire page..?
QFT
and as you say, there certainly are guys doing it.
So, we can see when CLF guys do it, they do not really look like kickboxers-sure they do the same techniques, but they also include many key techniques from their system-gwa, cup, sow, charp, juen been, etc.
When you use your Bak Mei, do you use key techniques from Bak Mei, or does it end up looking like everyone else.
(and I am not referring to using key tactics, but actual techniques that are characteristic of your style.)

Syn7
09-19-2010, 06:28 PM
don't ya hate those guys who feel they have to quote the entire page..?
QFT
and as you say, there certainly are guys doing it.
So, we can see when CLF guys do it, they do not really look like kickboxers-sure they do the same techniques, but they also include many key techniques from their system-gwa, cup, sow, charp, juen been, etc.
When you use your Bak Mei, do you use key techniques from Bak Mei, or does it end up looking like everyone else.
(and I am not referring to using key tactics, but actual techniques that are characteristic of your style.)

i havent really had much chance to try it against many other styles yet... i havent even been doing this system for a year... i was doing other stuff before, something or other since grade 8 wrestling...

but i dont see any reason why i wont be able to use the bak mei in a more mma or street type scenario... i would probably work the outside like a thai fighter and change my stance up when i move in to reflect the bak mei... i mean, the footwork is important, i'll have to switch between the two styles depending on the situation... i think the short power will be very useful on the inside... ask me again next year:D

im really looking foreward to the future and i really hope tcma plays a more active role in the whole scene, mma and all...

Yum Cha
09-19-2010, 11:03 PM
i practice bak mei, love it, and i see no reason why i cant use it sportfighting or in the street... if i use it in sparring the way we do for muay thai then its golden...

You can use a subset of Pak Mei in sparring. Anything that involves chi sau, or kau la type entries and traps, you can forget, you can't move the gloves that quickly and tightly. Also, all the forearm work probably seems like elbows to MMA guys, so make sure the rules are clear on that, and of course, all the large joint attacks have to get turned into traps and arm bars, trips, whatever....

And to me, this is the problem. You train to give up some of our best stuff, and the gloves slow you down by more than half. Essentially, you have to compromise the style so much that it becomes an exercise in itself, not the ultimate test.

The best trick I found is to learn to work the stance, regardless of hands first, quick and mobile, solid and balanced. You can put any kind of hand work on that.

How old are you, and have you done a lot of rounds?

Frost
09-20-2010, 12:13 AM
Must be true....even with all the rules associated with those sports.

-jo

in the early years of MMA the rules were no eye o throat strikes, guess who was winning all those matches.....

Frost
09-20-2010, 12:25 AM
well, then what? Do you actually think that across the board TCMA does not work, and everybody who practices it is totally delusional?
Does that also make jiu-jutsu (not BJJ-which really isn't a complete jj system, but a specialization of ne-waza) Aikido, JMA,Silat,KMA, Kali, etc completely useless?
Are you saying that out of everything, only MMaA a mix of muay thai,. bjj, and boxing, is the only viable technique?

I think things evolve and that because of the lack of fighting (generally) over the last 100 years the evolution of the Chinese styles has not really done this. And this coupled with the emphasis on adding forms, doing this and that specialised breathing or conditioning programme without actually linking it in with sparring has been the general problem.

BJJ has evolved hugely over the last 20 years, you now see wrestling takedowns and boxing hands rather than the foot stomp or the bear hug and trip, like wise sport BJJ has evolved too, you now see the half guard, 50'50 guard x guard etc, where is the evolution in the TMCA, indeed people seem to pride themselves on training exactly like some master did 200 years ago, who was facing a different enemy and a different environment.

People no longer attack down the centre line and trap without clinching, the clinch the takedown the plum the ground are all major parts of fighting now whether people like it or not, and if styles don’t evolve to acknowledge this then what does that say about them? Master of old took things from other styles, hung gar and CLF took lamas wide swinging punches after seeing how effective they were for example, so why cant these styles now evolve?


You mentioned CLF, and no one has a problem with them they are one of the few KF styles you see constantly putting guys into full contact fights, but in those fights what do you see, the core seed movements: Kwa cup etc and I think thats the problem, some styles have moved away from fighting as the core and as a result now practise techniques and sets that dont enhance their ability to fight.

Yum Cha
09-20-2010, 03:30 AM
I think things evolve and that because of the lack of fighting (generally) over the last 100 years the evolution of the Chinese styles has not really done this. And this coupled with the emphasis on adding forms, doing this and that specialised breathing or conditioning programme without actually linking it in with sparring has been the general problem.

Well, up until the mid 70's kung fu in China was on the down low.... Used by crims and enforcers mostly. The other major evolution of Kung Fu, which used up a lot of momentum, was Wu Shu..... yipee...



You mentioned CLF, and no one has a problem with them they are one of the few KF styles you see constantly putting guys into full contact fights, but in those fights what do you see, the core seed movements: Kwa cup etc and I think thats the problem, some styles have moved away from fighting as the core and as a result now practise techniques and sets that dont enhance their ability to fight.

I totally agree, and the main reason, to my mind, is the ease in adapting CLF to gloved hand fighting.

Syn7
09-20-2010, 04:26 AM
what he said...
well put frost...


i think the people who are the most offended by that reality are the ones that need to hear it the most...


maybe im biased because i actually fought as a youth... made my bones early and learned what not to do early... if youve never been in a fight then you dont know if your stuff works or not... im not trying to be offensive but it sounds rediculous if somebody says they are a great baseball player but theyve only been to the batting cage... never faced a slider, a curve or anything that wasnt str8 down the pipe... its delusional to think you can hit in the bigs, or even against a good mid teenage pitcher... same goes for martial arts... when somebody claims they can fight but never have, i just cant respect that the way they may want to be respected...


that being said, i do have an appreciation for forms... they just arent the end all of fighting training...

Syn7
09-20-2010, 04:41 AM
The best trick I found is to learn to work the stance, regardless of hands first, quick and mobile, solid and balanced. You can put any kind of hand work on that.


word, s'all bout the footwork...

what exactly do you mean by rounds???

i hate the 4oz grappling gloves... i'd rather just go raw daddy with just the handwraps... i prefer muay thai style wrap...

Frost
09-20-2010, 05:17 AM
Well, up until the mid 70's kung fu in China was on the down low.... Used by crims and enforcers mostly. The other major evolution of Kung Fu, which used up a lot of momentum, was Wu Shu..... yipee....


and BJJ was still being taught in garages in the early 90's and no gi submission grappling was no where untuil the late 90's, MMA was all but dead until the UF series in the 2000's, yet all these are growing and have evolved, why hasn't TCMA


I totally agree, and the main reason, to my mind, is the ease in adapting CLF to gloved hand fighting.

Maybe some styles are easier to use gloves with than others, but this still does not explain why there is so little sparring clips out there of some styles, be it bare handed, small gloved, with full on head guards, or with gloves whilst acknowledging it limits their skill set slightly.

To be honest gloves annoy and limit grappling no end: they limit our sensitivity, and make slapping on a lot of subs harder and make it easier to defend for none grapplers etc but you still see guys sparring with them

TenTigers
09-20-2010, 05:53 AM
another issue that has killed TCMA fighting is that when they firts went public, they entered in alot of open tournaments, and fought by their rules-point fighting and kickboxing-even the FJP full-contact Kung-Fu tournaments.
The students who competed, eventually became "Sifus," and what do you think theytaught? They taught hwat they knew, what they did the most. That was the 70's-80's. Several generations later, we have tournaments and fighting where the only thing that resembles Kung-Fu is their t-shirts.
I think the popularity of MMA has opened alot of eyes, but it is still a gradual change. TCMA schools are definately jumping on, albiet it's little by little, and I give it another year or two before CMA in MMA is commonplace.
There will always be the Larper schools, the Kwai Chang Caine schools, the guys wearing Monk's robes doing wu-shu and calling it TCMA, but there will definately be a group of TCMA'ists who step up.

sanjuro_ronin
09-20-2010, 06:00 AM
You know how I fight? How I learned to fight?
By fighting.
Whether it was kyokushin, MT, boxing, judo, Hung Kune, whatever system, the stsyem never taught me HOW to fight, just what the tools were, the rest was up to me.
I submit that, too many people forget that the "rest is up to them".
And that is the problem.
My SPM sifu said, very plainly that MY SPM would NEVER be like his, just like his son's is not like his.
Mine would always be "tainted" (his word) with ALL that I have done before.
I expressed my concern that it would never be "pure"mantis and he said, " You say that as if it was a a bad thing".
And walked away.
I didn't understand it then, but I understand it now.
I hit people, I hit them as hard as I can and as m any times as I can, until they are not a threat.
That is MY kung fu and it is strong.

Jorge
09-20-2010, 06:56 AM
You know how I fight? How I learned to fight?
By fighting.
Whether it was kyokushin, MT, boxing, judo, Hung Kune, whatever system, the stsyem never taught me HOW to fight, just what the tools were, the rest was up to me.
I submit that, too many people forget that the "rest is up to them".
And that is the problem.
My SPM sifu said, very plainly that MY SPM would NEVER be like his, just like his son's is not like his.
Mine would always be "tainted" (his word) with ALL that I have done before.
I expressed my concern that it would never be "pure"mantis and he said, " You say that as if it was a a bad thing".
And walked away.
I didn't understand it then, but I understand it now.
I hit people, I hit them as hard as I can and as m any times as I can, until they are not a threat.
That is MY kung fu and it is strong.

Word to the Mother!! I can definitely relate... Respect!

punchdrunk
09-20-2010, 12:24 PM
Ronin's dead on with his statement, and really people who argue style vs style should read his words. that's why I like MMA.. because its not a style its an opportunity that more people should take advantage of.

TenTigers
09-20-2010, 01:30 PM
ah, the only reason more CMA guys haven't accepted MMA is because we don't have a cool guy doing it. Bruce Lee was going in that direction, and alot of CMA guys jumped on the JKD bandwagon-not calling their art JKD, but still adopting many of its principles. No different. It's just being well rounded.
So..who volunteers to be the next cool guy?
actually, there's a good handfull right here.

Yum Cha
09-20-2010, 03:13 PM
and BJJ was still being taught in garages in the early 90's and no gi submission grappling was no where untuil the late 90's, MMA was all but dead until the UF series in the 2000's, yet all these are growing and have evolved, why hasn't TCMA

Well, what the Gracies have done is unprecedented. I kind of see it as they practicalised an academic art, with the expected salsa flair...or perhaps fire. No, its remarkable. What more can you say?

The game is magic, you can play it as hard as possible, and tap once the result is inevitable. Add the ground and pound - its a new standard.

I think TCMA is evolving, but its a percentages game. Are 10% practical, 20, 30? It will ebb and flow as they split between the wu shu mentality, and the black iron gym mentality, regardless of style. Certainly not leading anything. HOWEVER, the stuff is rich, lots to learn, lots of options, if you get a good teacher.


Maybe some styles are easier to use gloves with than others, but this still does not explain why there is so little sparring clips out there of some styles, be it bare handed, small gloved, with full on head guards, or with gloves whilst acknowledging it limits their skill set slightly.

Speaking for myself and my club at least, we have training videos we won't publish because it does show how we fight. That's part of our gig, surprise.

Does it work? So far results are over the last couple of years, students 3 - Loser A-holes 0, which is minimally reassuring, but reassuring nevertheless.

But, the point you make is a good one, there are no videos because there are no winners to boast about, cept Cung Lee.....:D



To be honest gloves annoy and limit grappling no end: they limit our sensitivity, and make slapping on a lot of subs harder and make it easier to defend for none grapplers etc but you still see guys sparring with them

Gloves are like Women, can't live with them, can't live without them.

My current thinking is to break down the full into parts. Train the parts under control, and occasionally, put them together and check the result.

This is simply the enabling, that will allow the fighters to come to the fore, and get what they need.

In every school I ever visited, there are only a small core of real fighters, I bet the same is true in an MMA gym too, but granted to a much lesser degree?

We also train more aspects of 'self defence' than fighting. We cover situational awareness, body language, group tactics, multiple attackers, escape strategy and the like.

Jorge
09-20-2010, 03:22 PM
another issue that has killed TCMA fighting is that when they firts went public, they entered in alot of open tournaments, and fought by their rules-point fighting and kickboxing-even the FJP full-contact Kung-Fu tournaments.
The students who competed, eventually became "Sifus," and what do you think theytaught? They taught hwat they knew, what they did the most. That was the 70's-80's. Several generations later, we have tournaments and fighting where the only thing that resembles Kung-Fu is their t-shirts.


Word thats so true! One of my boys loved point division, so I went to hold him down once and I couldn't tell who was who.LOLOL Straight out of a Karate kid movie, just less contact!LOLOL Sweep the leg! LOLOL


Ten, did you ever get to go to the Fu Jow Pai tourneys back in the day?

Bless

TenTigers
09-20-2010, 03:35 PM
Word thats so true! One of my boys loved point division, so I went to hold him down once and I couldn't tell who was who.LOLOL Straight out of a Karate kid movie, just less contact!LOLOL Sweep the leg! LOLOL


Ten, did you ever get to go to the Fu Jow Pai tourneys back in the day?

Bless

yep. but as I said, everyone fought like kickboxers. Jab, cross, hook, uppercut,front kick, sidekick, roundhouse. They were cool, but it really didn't look any different.

Violent Designs
09-20-2010, 04:00 PM
yep. but as I said, everyone fought like kickboxers. Jab, cross, hook, uppercut,front kick, sidekick, roundhouse. They were cool, but it really didn't look any different.

Kinda like some of the only things that can be used with boxing gloves though...

Syn7
09-20-2010, 04:48 PM
To be honest gloves annoy and limit grappling no end: they limit our sensitivity, and make slapping on a lot of subs harder and make it easier to defend for none grapplers etc but you still see guys sparring with them

the worst is when they hold the gloves, or trap your forearms and you cant pull out because of the gloves... essecially against a non grappler who just holds on for dear life... very annoying.. slippery sweaty hands are much harder to nuetralize...

TenTigers
09-20-2010, 06:49 PM
Kinda like some of the only things that can be used with boxing gloves though...
arrrggghh!! NO! (bangs head against keyboard)
that's the whole thing-gwa, cup, pek,gow,sow,been, can all be done with boxing gloves on! What I don't understand is why nobody (except yours truly) has ever thought of it before.
Now, granted,I know not every style uses these techniques, but most Southern long arm styles do.(Hung-Ga, Jow-Ga, Hop-Ga,Fut-Ga, Hung-Fut, Lama,CLF, Fu Jow P'ai,etc)
Jamming and trapping techniques such as lan-sao can be used with gloves as well.
This is the weird thing; I have been trying to get Kung-Fu people to do this for years, and they would say,"You can't. The judges won't allow/recognize the techniques"
To which I responded,
"Bull****. you simply need to educate the judges!"
It's the weirdest thing. It's as if they were afraid to even try.
Slowly but surely, more and more KF guys are doing it. I am beginning to see more and more of these strikes being thrown.(mostly from CLF guys...)
Give it time.
"Trust the process!"

Syn7
09-20-2010, 07:43 PM
It's the weirdest thing. It's as if they were afraid to even try.

because untill they are proven wrong, in their own mind they are right... a bit of objective thinking will have anyone realising that uness they train for the ring, they'll most likely get whipped in the ring... esspecially if they dont do full contact sparring at all...

Violent Designs
09-20-2010, 11:54 PM
arrrggghh!! NO! (bangs head against keyboard)
that's the whole thing-gwa, cup, pek,gow,sow,been, can all be done with boxing gloves on! What I don't understand is why nobody (except yours truly) has ever thought of it before.
Now, granted,I know not every style uses these techniques, but most Southern long arm styles do.(Hung-Ga, Jow-Ga, Hop-Ga,Fut-Ga, Hung-Fut, Lama,CLF, Fu Jow P'ai,etc)
Jamming and trapping techniques such as lan-sao can be used with gloves as well.
This is the weird thing; I have been trying to get Kung-Fu people to do this for years, and they would say,"You can't. The judges won't allow/recognize the techniques"
To which I responded,
"Bull****. you simply need to educate the judges!"
It's the weirdest thing. It's as if they were afraid to even try.
Slowly but surely, more and more KF guys are doing it. I am beginning to see more and more of these strikes being thrown.(mostly from CLF guys...)
Give it time.
"Trust the process!"

Well gwa looks like a backfist. Because it is.
Charp chui looks like a jab.
Sau chui looks like a hooking punch/overhand
Pow chui looks like an uppercut...

so ppl will say, oh all you are throwing are jabs straights hooks and uppercuts...

I guess they are right, there is enough similarity in the path of motion.

You understand what I am saying I'm sure, I am not disagreeing with you on this matter.

Frost
09-21-2010, 12:11 AM
Well, what the Gracies have done is unprecedented. I kind of see it as they practicalised an academic art, with the expected salsa flair...or perhaps fire. No, its remarkable. What more can you say?

The game is magic, you can play it as hard as possible, and tap once the result is inevitable. Add the ground and pound - its a new standard.

I think TCMA is evolving, but its a percentages game. Are 10% practical, 20, 30? It will ebb and flow as they split between the wu shu mentality, and the black iron gym mentality, regardless of style. Certainly not leading anything. HOWEVER, the stuff is rich, lots to learn, lots of options, if you get a good teacher.



Speaking for myself and my club at least, we have training videos we won't publish because it does show how we fight. That's part of our gig, surprise.

Does it work? So far results are over the last couple of years, students 3 - Loser A-holes 0, which is minimally reassuring, but reassuring nevertheless.

But, the point you make is a good one, there are no videos because there are no winners to boast about, cept Cung Lee.....:D




Gloves are like Women, can't live with them, can't live without them.

My current thinking is to break down the full into parts. Train the parts under control, and occasionally, put them together and check the result.

This is simply the enabling, that will allow the fighters to come to the fore, and get what they need.

In every school I ever visited, there are only a small core of real fighters, I bet the same is true in an MMA gym too, but granted to a much lesser degree?

We also train more aspects of 'self defence' than fighting. We cover situational awareness, body language, group tactics, multiple attackers, escape strategy and the like.

so you don’t post videos in case guys you might meet on the street or in a ring see it? I don’t get this secrecy and line of thinking, there are videos of pros on line showing their fights and their sparring matches, i know what they do and their favorite technique, still doesn't mean i have a hope in hell of stopping it when we spar. Seeing the end result is useless without actually going through the process of how you got there, but it does help put people on the right line.

Without people willing to put up videos of what they are doing and what works/doesn’t work arts stagnate and die out.

BJJ is a classic example gracie torrance didnt let their guys compete for years and kept what they did in house...up shot was BJJ passed them buy and they got creamed in a comp with their cousins, now they are out there competing with everyone else.

TenTigers
09-21-2010, 09:20 AM
ok, so check this out: Last Sunday we were competing at an open tournament-point fighting. So my guy nails this guy with three sow choys-controlled contact to the side of the headgear. The center judge, a Karate practitioner, scolds him for throwing punches "like a woman"-because they were hooks to his head..?and he should be throwing straight punches...? um, what?
So I tell him, "No, these are sow choys, (which I demonstrate) and they are strikes that we do in our style, as well as cup choy(which I show him.)
He answers back, "Well, if you want to throw hooking strikes, you should throw ridgehands."
I say (quite a bit perturbed) "NO! We throw Sow choys. Don't tell him to change how he strikes, just because you are unfamiliar with the technique. A strike is a strike, the hand shape is not the issue."
-and this guy was a (supposedly) high ranking BB...who was inviolved in tournaments since the 70's?
Hmmm..doesn't seem to get out much...

David Jamieson
09-21-2010, 09:44 AM
ok, so check this out: Last Sunday we were competing at an open tournament-point fighting. So my guy nails this guy with three sow choys-controlled contact to the side of the headgear. The center judge, a Karate practitioner, scolds him for throwing punches "like a woman"-because they were hooks to his head..?and he should be throwing straight punches...? um, what?
So I tell him, "No, these are sow choys, (which I demonstrate) and they are strikes that we do in our style, as well as cup choy(which I show him.)
He answers back, "Well, if you want to throw hooking strikes, you should throw ridgehands."
I say (quite a bit perturbed) "NO! We throw Sow choys. Don't tell him to change how he strikes, just because you are unfamiliar with the technique. A strike is a strike, the hand shape is not the issue."
-and this guy was a (supposedly) high ranking BB...who was inviolved in tournaments since the 70's?
Hmmm..doesn't seem to get out much...


what's unfortunate is that kung fu tourneys are frequently filled with people like this.

It's so dissapointing. Probably time to take Kung Fu tournaments in a different direction from how the typical ones are run.

if you have san shou, it's san shou rules and no discretionary crap from opinionated blowhards. :)

Frost
09-21-2010, 09:46 AM
ok, so check this out: Last Sunday we were competing at an open tournament-point fighting. So my guy nails this guy with three sow choys-controlled contact to the side of the headgear. The center judge, a Karate practitioner, scolds him for throwing punches "like a woman"-because they were hooks to his head..?and he should be throwing straight punches...? um, what?
So I tell him, "No, these are sow choys, (which I demonstrate) and they are strikes that we do in our style, as well as cup choy(which I show him.)
He answers back, "Well, if you want to throw hooking strikes, you should throw ridgehands."
I say (quite a bit perturbed) "NO! We throw Sow choys. Don't tell him to change how he strikes, just because you are unfamiliar with the technique. A strike is a strike, the hand shape is not the issue."
-and this guy was a (supposedly) high ranking BB...who was inviolved in tournaments since the 70's?
Hmmm..doesn't seem to get out much...

go compete in full contact, it leaves no room for doubt when the opponent is lying on the floor:)

sanjuro_ronin
09-21-2010, 09:53 AM
BJJ is a classic example gracie torrance didnt let their guys compete for years and kept what they did in house...up shot was BJJ passed them buy and they got creamed in a comp with their cousins, now they are out there competing with everyone else.

The lesson here is VITAL to learn.

jo
09-21-2010, 01:23 PM
go compete in full contact, it leaves no room for doubt when the opponent is lying on the floor:)

Full contact? Put some gloves on. No eye gouging, no throat strikes, no temple strikes, no strikes to the back of the head, no kicking to the balls, no kicking to the knees, no kicking when a guy is down????

Thats a sport, not the street.

-jo

Dale Dugas
09-21-2010, 01:40 PM
I have no need to compete, competing is not the same thing as using your material on the street.

Though for defense Im more inclined to shoot someone rather than put my hands on them.

Faruq
09-21-2010, 01:46 PM
I have no need to compete, competing is not the same thing as using your material on the street.

Though for defense Im more inclined to shoot someone rather than put my hands on them.

You're gansta! Respect!

TenTigers
09-21-2010, 01:49 PM
the argument that street doesn't count, as the people you are fighting are not trained, or skilled doesn't really mean that much to me.
I need to defend myself-period. The average attacker is not a well-conditioned cage fighter, and frankly, at my age, even if I was training hard, I doubt I would fair well against GSP.
The police have shootouts with perps-perps who do not go to the range, do not practice combat shooting, probably don't even know what a modified weaver is, and yet...in my mind, I kinda think that counts, right?
My Martial Arts has never failed me in self-defense encounters. I've been in a few, and I'm still here.
Sure, I would've loved it to look like a Bruce Lee movie,
but Bruce is dead and I'm not, so I win. Nyah!:p

Jorge
09-21-2010, 01:52 PM
I have no need to compete, competing is not the same thing as using your material on the street.

Though for defense Im more inclined to shoot someone rather than put my hands on them.

Sounds like we grew up on the same block! I knew you looked familiar.LOLOLOL

Bless

Jorge
09-21-2010, 01:56 PM
the argument that street doesn't count, as the people you are fighting are not trained, or skilled doesn't really mean that much to me.
I need to defend myself-period. The average attacker is not a well-conditioned cage fighter, and frankly, at my age, even if I was training hard, I doubt I would fair well against GSP.
The police have shootouts with perps-perps who do not go to the range, do not practice combat shooting, probably don't even know what a modified weaver is, and yet...in my mind, I kinda think that counts, right?
My Martial Arts has never failed me in self-defense encounters. I've been in a few, and I'm still here.
Sure, I would've loved it to look like a Bruce Lee movie,
but Bruce is dead and I'm not, so I win. Nyah!:p

Get the Fnck outta here! You didn't look like Bruce? How about the Shaw Bros. flicks? :confused: If not, then you weren't using Kung Fu. Sorry to tell ya Bro...It had to be some of that Karate you learned when you were younger.:eek:LOLOLOL:D

Bless

Yum Cha
09-21-2010, 03:16 PM
so you don’t post videos in case guys you might meet on the street or in a ring see it? I don’t get this secrecy and line of thinking, there are videos of pros on line showing their fights and their sparring matches, i know what they do and their favorite technique, still doesn't mean i have a hope in hell of stopping it when we spar. Seeing the end result is useless without actually going through the process of how you got there, but it does help put people on the right line.


See, its almost like politics. I understand what you are saying, but to me its a different world. I play a part, I don't write the script.

My stuff is all about using training to beat superior opponents/odds. I start from the position that I'm at a disadvantage. I'm full of tricks and traps that once you've seen once, you won't fall for a second time.

I've observed, trained and studied other arts, to understand them, not to perfect them. Most people have no idea what Pak Mei looks like in application, same with SPM.

Both styles are considered 20 second fighters. If you last the first 20 seconds, you can probably beat them.

I started in sport, moved into style. Some start in style, and move into sport. I think it makes a difference.

Jorge
09-21-2010, 07:51 PM
Interesting!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdfcxWi2C1c&feature=channel

Bless

jo
09-21-2010, 08:38 PM
Though for defense Im more inclined to shoot someone rather than put my hands on them.

So what does that say about all the years you spent "teaching self defense"??????:rolleyes:

- jo

Yum Cha
09-21-2010, 09:58 PM
@ Jorge, nice vids. Ya reckon any of those blokes ever had to use it on the street? ;)

Frost
09-22-2010, 12:03 AM
Full contact? Put some gloves on. No eye gouging, no throat strikes, no temple strikes, no strikes to the back of the head, no kicking to the balls, no kicking to the knees, no kicking when a guy is down????

Thats a sport, not the street.

-jo

no its a set of rules to test yourself under whilst the other guy is doing his best to beat the cr*p out of you under those same rules. You know rules like youyou have in class, unless that is all your training partners are now blind and in wheelchairs from being kicked in the head and gouged :)

Jorge
09-22-2010, 04:50 AM
@ Jorge, nice vids. Ya reckon any of those blokes ever had to use it on the street? ;)

I would think so, as he grew up in the hood and from what I understand, Novell is known in his hood for his hands. I've also heard very good things about Mr. Bey, but I've never had the opportunity to feel his hands. I took a class once with Novell and the dude knows his BaGua. Real cool dude.

MysteriousPower
09-22-2010, 04:58 AM
I would think so, as he grew up in the hood and from what I understand, Novell is known in his hood for his hands. I've also heard very good things about Mr. Bey, but I've never had the opportunity to feel his hands. I took a class once with Novell and the dude knows his BaGua. Real cool dude.

Novell has no videos of sparring or of his invisible fight record. He must study spm. :) All his videos are of him doing forms, teaching, and drilling. Joe Rogan was making fun of him on a YouTube video interview. The fact that you brought him up jus shows that birds of a feather flock together.

Frost
09-22-2010, 05:00 AM
See, its almost like politics. I understand what you are saying, but to me its a different world. I play a part, I don't write the script.

My stuff is all about using training to beat superior opponents/odds. I start from the position that I'm at a disadvantage. I'm full of tricks and traps that once you've seen once, you won't fall for a second time.

I've observed, trained and studied other arts, to understand them, not to perfect them. Most people have no idea what Pak Mei looks like in application, same with SPM.

Both styles are considered 20 second fighters. If you last the first 20 seconds, you can probably beat them.

I started in sport, moved into style. Some start in style, and move into sport. I think it makes a difference.


I can respect that, you’re in their school you play by their rules, fair enough but it’s a shame it’s the reason styles die out

Even us sports guys start in bad positions when we train so I can understand where you are coming from, I just disagree with relying on tricks and traps that only work once or twice, I just prefer using things that are more high percentage (just a thought but do you pull these off against your class mates often….because if you can pull them off in sparring against your class mates when they know them as well maybe they aren’t tricks and traps but good technique?)

We all like to be 20 second fighters and I understand the mentality, the hakka arts I have trained and seen are all like this (although I wonder about the legality of all those PE fists to the throat lol), h*ll the thai and wrestlers I know train like this to: Maximum inmapct on the pads in combos, big slams etc its just very hard to end a fight quickly if the other guy doesn’t want you to do that so I have found its best to hope for the best but expect the worst and train accordingly :o)

Frost
09-22-2010, 05:02 AM
I would think so, as he grew up in the hood and from what I understand, Novell is known in his hood for his hands. I've also heard very good things about Mr. Bey, but I've never had the opportunity to feel his hands. I took a class once with Novell and the dude knows his BaGua. Real cool dude.

The problem with these video clips you posted is that fighting does not happen like that, when was the last time you saw someone step in intercept and finish someone in seconds like on that clip whilst the other guy stood there and didn’t respond?

It doesn’t happen, they can talk about the different mentality of street v sport all they want, that doesn’t change the fact that when we see clips of them actually fighting an opponent that’s hitting back all this stuff goes out of the window.

Go look at Novells students xingi sparring clip on the main forum, or maoshans fights, or the man up events….where was the intercept and quick finish in those fights…fact is if you are not used to dealing with someone trying to hit you hard and not cooperating like in those drills several things happen: you cr*p yourself and turn away from the strikes, you back up when getting hit and then respond rather than staying in the pocket and fighting back, and your chin comes up and your hands come down…oh and you start widely swinging for the fences as well because since you aren’t used to real pressure everything goes to pot.

All those things happened in the above clips I talked about.

As for the rules/mentality stuff its largely bull, no one in training actually kills and maims their students so we all train under a set of rules and with a civilised mentality anyway: the choice you make is to either tone down the contact and resistance and do the deadly stuff in simulation, or you remove the deadly stuff increase the resistance and the level of contact (or shock you can do a little of both)

But out of the above which do you think will serve you better when levels of contact and resistance go through the roof and deadly shots can be added in…who will be in a better position to deal with the adreline, the fear and the impact of real strikes?

Frost
09-22-2010, 05:03 AM
the argument that street doesn't count, as the people you are fighting are not trained, or skilled doesn't really mean that much to me.
I need to defend myself-period. The average attacker is not a well-conditioned cage fighter, and frankly, at my age, even if I was training hard, I doubt I would fair well against GSP.
The police have shootouts with perps-perps who do not go to the range, do not practice combat shooting, probably don't even know what a modified weaver is, and yet...in my mind, I kinda think that counts, right?
My Martial Arts has never failed me in self-defense encounters. I've been in a few, and I'm still here.
Sure, I would've loved it to look like a Bruce Lee movie,
but Bruce is dead and I'm not, so I win. Nyah!:p

Who was arguing about the street v the cage? you were moaning about not scoring in semi contact events, I said go have your guys fight full contact it leaves nothing to chance and its hard to not score a technique that you are knocking out the other guy with :o)

As for the whole street thing I have never said it doesn’t count, don’t think anyone else has either, what we have said is if you test yourself against well trained fighters in a full contact environment, this can be in a cage ring, your school then you are better prepared to meet confrontation than if you aren’t used to being hit and the adreline response you get from facing someone out to hurt you.

And that typically preparing for the lowest common denominator, ie a scrub is not the best way to go about training.

If you train as if you are going to face GSP (even if he would kick your ass) it makes fighting joey big belly with his big wide punches and frat boy tackles a lot easier, now if you train to face joey and you end up facing a D1 wrestler who can also box instead you might be in for a long day…..just saying

LSWCTN1
09-22-2010, 05:30 AM
i went to a wing chun seminar in May? in Southampton with some really good people.

one of the key notes that struck me was that EVERYONE likes to think they have knockout power, whilst VERY few ever do.

in this regard, 20 second fighters would be at a distinct disadvantage.. i suggest that if you manage to hit someone cleanly (no interceptions, no obstructions... you hit just hits) and DONT ko them, then you're in trouble. be that in the street or in a ring.

a good mma fight example of this, for me, is Lawler KTFOutta Manhoef with the one shot he had

sanjuro_ronin
09-22-2010, 05:51 AM
Full contact? Put some gloves on. No eye gouging, no throat strikes, no temple strikes, no strikes to the back of the head, no kicking to the balls, no kicking to the knees, no kicking when a guy is down????

Thats a sport, not the street.

-jo

That is a tired argument Jo and let me tell you why:
I have fought on the street, in the ring, with no rules, with limited rules and with rules up the yin-yang and in ALL cases guess what?
The best fighter ALWAYS WON.
The guy that was faster, stronger, more intent, more heart and will, won.
REGARDLESS of street or ring ( baring a gun of course).

It never was about Street VS ring, that was an invention of people that could fight well in the ring, the differences between them are KNOW BY ALL.
It was always about testing your skill VS the best and the best fight in the ring.
You don't have to compete forever and always, but at SOME POINT you have to test your **** VS someone that CAN FIGHT FOR REAL, someone that spends as much time, if not more, training to actually fight as YOU do.

sanjuro_ronin
09-22-2010, 05:55 AM
i went to a wing chun seminar in May? in Southampton with some really good people.

one of the key notes that struck me was that EVERYONE likes to think they have knockout power, whilst VERY few ever do.

in this regard, 20 second fighters would be at a distinct disadvantage.. i suggest that if you manage to hit someone cleanly (no interceptions, no obstructions... you hit just hits) and DONT ko them, then you're in trouble. be that in the street or in a ring.

a good mma fight example of this, for me, is Lawler KTFOutta Manhoef with the one shot he had

Indeed.
I have a few KO's to my record, in the ring ( Boxing, MT, Kyokushin, etc) and out of it, I have had my strike measured and the impact force was equal to and in some cases greater than the HW I was tested with.
I can say and have been told that I have "KO" power.
YET, I would never assume that I could finish ANYONE with one shot or in 20 seconds, even though I have.
WHy?
Because KO'ong a guy that has never been hit "for real" is NOT the same as TRYING to KO someone that has.

TenTigers
09-22-2010, 08:12 AM
Hi Frost, I was actually commenting on what Dale said.
I am in full agreement that the current methods of training,conditioning,sparring will get one most prepared. But-that is in actuality the traditional method of fighting-with the addition of the ground game as it stands. (state of the art and all that)
It's only in the past several generations that people emphasized forms and complacent drills over real conditioning, pad drills, and sparring.

I think that the argument the TCMA makes is that although there is no way to practice specific techniuques full-contact, it does not negate their effectiveness.
The Richard Craniums on the forums like to argue, thinking that these specific techniques/skills are all TCMAists practice and rely on, and nothing else, rather than simply accepting the fact that they are simply tools included in their repitoire.
Of course, there are some TCMAists that go on and on supporting just these claims.
From my experience, at least with the people I hang with, this is not the norm.
My SPM teacher grew up boxing first, then Karate, before training in SPM. He also recognizes the effectiveness of MMA-especially the ground game.

And for all the RC's, here's a newsflash-Hakka Kuen has jabs, hook, uppercuts, and crosses. They also have long hard power. :eek:
However, they also posess a specific set of skills that makes them very unique in this area.:cool:
It's really nothing to get agitated about, however guys like MP apparantly have been traumatized by a bad TCMA experience, and feel the need to p1ss and moan..
Just as HW108 feels the need to inject his single-minded attacks on all MMAists, or cross training TCMAists.
ok, we get it. Up your meds and get on with your life already.:rolleyes:
There just seems to be alot of toxic shock syndrome in MA in general.:D

Jorge
09-22-2010, 08:31 AM
Novell has no videos of sparring or of his invisible fight record. He must study spm. :) All his videos are of him doing forms, teaching, and drilling. Joe Rogan was making fun of him on a YouTube video interview. The fact that you brought him up jus shows that birds of a feather flock together.

I met Novell like two or three times, he showed me some of his Bagua once and from what he showed me it was good and practical. He trained my dude Burn and I know some dudes from his hood and they all say he has good hands. So whats the problem! Also, I really dont see how that makes us flocking together or birds of the same feather...you guys like to read into thing a bit much!LOLOLOL I like Joe Rogan! I didn't know about the YouTube vid, but thats between them and nothing to do with me.

MysteriousPower
09-22-2010, 09:29 AM
I met Novell like two or three times, he showed me some of his Bagua once and from what he showed me it was good and practical. He trained my dude Burn and I know some dudes from his hood and they all say he has good hands. So whats the problem! Also, I really dont see how that makes us flocking together or birds of the same feather...you guys like to read into thing a bit much!LOLOLOL I like Joe Rogan! I didn't know about the YouTube vid, but thats between them and nothing to do with me.


He trained your dude Burn in the hood? This is starting to sound like a bad rap video. It does not matter if someone is considered good in the hood(rhyme). That like being the school champ. So what? How does one do sparring outside of his comfort zone with SKILLED people who are not enamored by him? This reminds me of how students just fall over for their Sifu and think he has godlike powers...accept this scene takes place in the ghetto.

MysteriousPower
09-22-2010, 11:10 AM
Just out of curiosity what do they say in the hood about maoshan's skills? The answer to this will decide if anyone in your hood knows
what they are talking about.

Jorge
09-22-2010, 03:21 PM
Just out of curiosity what do they say in the hood about maoshan's skills? The answer to this will decide if anyone in your hood knows
what they are talking about.

I don't know his peoples.

Dude you really dont understand where Im coming from, do you? Forget it, dont loss any sleep over it.

Jorge
09-22-2010, 03:47 PM
He trained your dude Burn in the hood? This is starting to sound like a bad rap video. It does not matter if someone is considered good in the hood(rhyme). That like being the school champ. So what? How does one do sparring outside of his comfort zone with SKILLED people who are not enamored by him? This reminds me of how students just fall over for their Sifu and think he has godlike powers...accept this scene takes place in the ghetto.

No. He trained him at his school in Queens. I know some guys from Novell's hood. They have good hands and they spoke good things of Novell's hands. No body said he had godlike powers. Again, you read to much into things.

Who are you to say these guys in the streets aren't skilled. School Champ?LOLOL I'm making reference to Jail house enforcers and soldiers. Let me put you on, one of my dudes who's a big brother to me, was a Ring Champ in more than one sport fighting venue. He still teaches and he's in the NYC MMA scence....Well anyway, while he was locked up he changed a lot of his fighting to better defend against the reality of jail/street fighting. There's a difference, but you need to experience both in order to understand.

Yum Cha
09-22-2010, 04:26 PM
..one of the key notes that struck me was that EVERYONE likes to think they have knockout power, whilst VERY few ever do.

in this regard, 20 second fighters would be at a distinct disadvantage.. i suggest that if you manage to hit someone cleanly (no interceptions, no obstructions... you hit just hits) and DONT ko them, then you're in trouble. be that in the street or in a ring.


Ok, a couple of people commented on the '20 second fighter' comment. Its just a concept (visualisation and training), its not like there's a bell, and all the air drains out and you end up there like a flat pancake with nothing but your big old eyes bugging out...

And also, the discussion of knock out power....

Who said anything about knockout? That's just one way to disable an opponent, and clear insight into the difference in fighting strategy.

I prefer a big joint. Er, you know what I mean...

Yum Cha
09-22-2010, 05:07 PM
I can respect that, you’re in their school you play by their rules, fair enough but it’s a shame it’s the reason styles die out

Even us sports guys start in bad positions when we train so I can understand where you are coming from, I just disagree with relying on tricks and traps that only work once or twice, I just prefer using things that are more high percentage (just a thought but do you pull these off against your class mates often….because if you can pull them off in sparring against your class mates when they know them as well maybe they aren’t tricks and traps but good technique?)

Its not like we're on mars and venus. Tricks and traps, I just call it that because most traditional guys get all 'floating sparrow picks nuts from cherry tree" and that doesn't float my boat.

For an generic example, best two kicks I ever had were the front that changes up half way to a half-round to the temple, and the front snap that falls low and short, followed on the same jump by the opposite sweeping roundhouse head high. Worked a charm, but once you saw it, it was hard to work again. But, it nearly always worked the first time.

High percentage moves are high percentage why? Because people can't counter them, or you set them up into a position of disadvantage? Force and strategy. My high percentage is achieved in part by surprise, and supported by technique.

But everything has a counter, right? That's what I'm protecting.

And, even in our school, we hide our stuff from each other for just that reason, its no small source of amusement between the brothers, stealing techniques and countering...


We all like to be 20 second fighters and I understand the mentality, the hakka arts I have trained and seen are all like this (although I wonder about the legality of all those PE fists to the throat lol), h*ll the thai and wrestlers I know train like this to: Maximum inmapct on the pads in combos, big slams etc its just very hard to end a fight quickly if the other guy doesn’t want you to do that so I have found its best to hope for the best but expect the worst and train accordingly :o)

Phoenix to the neck that wouldn't hurt would it??? :p

No, I don't think the mentality is just Hakka. Its a warrior as opposed to fighter mentality.

Hakaguri, Mishima - In a sword battle, it only takes one cut, one clash, all of life and death in one split second where one dominates and one dies. There is no reason to hold anything for the next chance, this is it, one second, one slice of time. Any advantage is built, captured and driven home, any disadvantage avoided or preempted.

Domination and crease.

No, that's "open source" stuff...