Choy Lee Fut Style

[choylee]

Hello,

If you love Choy Lee Fut, you can see www.kungfu-choyleefut.com


Good surf

[hskwarrior]

hahahah.....they really should update the site

why does the family tree there stop at lau bun? they left out Jew Leong (RIP) and Dino Salvatera.

[Buck Sing Gwoon]

In the family tree is that a pic of the founder of Hung Sing Gwoon GM Jeong Hung Sing? Is that pic accurate?

Have you seen that pic before Frank?

Also thats my Sifu Dave Lacey on the home page... NOT his brother Sifu Vince Lacey as stated.

[hskwarrior]

yeah i've seen it. the pic is of someone else. i originally thought someone found a pic of jeung hung sing there but turns out that guy is someone else, not jeung hung sing.

so many inaccuracies on that tree.

[Buck Sing Gwoon]

Thanks for that Frank.

Your correct, there are lots of inaccuracies.

Take care brother.

[choylee]

Why not,
this tree may updated with your comment ;)

[choylee]

hahahah.....they really should update the site

why does the family tree there stop at lau bun? they left out Jew Leong (RIP) and Dino Salvatera.


It does not stop at Lau bun > then there is Doc Fai Wong

If you have a picture you can send me at contact@clkungfu.com

Many Thanks

[choylee]

In the family tree is that a pic of the founder of Hung Sing Gwoon GM Jeong Hung Sing? Is that pic accurate?

Have you seen that pic before Frank?

Also thats my Sifu Dave Lacey on the home page... NOT his brother Sifu Vince Lacey as stated.

Yes it is Dave Lacey. It's corrected

[choylee]

Thanks for that Frank.

Your correct, there are lots of inaccuracies.

Take care brother.

I listen to you . Where are the mistakes ?

[hskwarrior]

First mistake is that pictrue next to jeung hung sing's name is not his picture.

you did leave out lau bun's successor Jew Leong, and Dino Salvatera (Jew Leong's Successor). Doc Fai Wong is not the successor to the Lau Bun lineage.

Jeung Hung Sing's 3 teachers were Lee Yau San, Chan Heung AND Ching Cho Wo Sheung

lay wing sun is Dave Lacey's name....you have Vince Lacey's picture up i think

also, jeung hung sing did not die at the age of 33. he died at 69/70 years old in 1893.

Jeung Hung Sing opened the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon in 1851 not 1839.

[choylee]

I had the link to Doc Fai Wong because it's on the following web site.
Is it false ?


http://plumblossom.net/ChoyLiFut/history.html (http://plumblossom.net/ChoyLiFut/history.html)
and
http://wiki.kwoon.info/index.php/Choy_Li_Fut#Arbre_G.C3.A9n.C3.A9alogique_du_Choy_L i_Fut (Lineage_Choy_Li_Fut)


Jeung Hung Sing = Cheung Yim = Cheung Hung Sing
Do you confirm this ?
Ok his not his picture. I search on the web

I began to change the tree of Choy Lee Fut on the web site.

Many Thanks

[hskwarrior]

Yes, Jeung Yim is also Jeung/Cheung Hung Sing.

yes doc fai wong learned from Professor Lau Bun. But he isn't the inheritor. pls include Jew Leong and Dino Salvatera in the Yuen Hai lineage. it's only fair.

it should look like this : Jeung Hung Sing (Cheung, Chung), - Yuen Hai - Lau Bun - Jew Leong - Dino Salvatera

Jew Leong (http://jewleong.zoomshare.com)

Dino Salvatera (http://tienloong.zoomshare.com)

[choylee]

It's updated

www.kungfu-choyleefut.com (http://www.kungfu-choyleefut.com)

[hskwarrior]

Thank you, much appreciated Choy Lee.

[Buck Sing Gwoon]

Thanks for updating site choylee

[ngokfei]

didn't Pook Dik also study under Leung Gwai (a student of Jeung Hung Sing)?

[JAZA]

Jeong Yim studying with Lee Yau Shan is not true.

[hskwarrior]

It is passed down from our lineage in fut san, specifically by Qian Wei Fang that Jeung Hung Sing's first teacher was Lee Yau San.

how do you know tis isn't true? chan family records of Jeung Hung Sing is very very thin. are you saying this because is wasn't recorded in chan family records?

[CLFNole]

Poon Dik did also study with Leung Kwai. Leung Kwai studied with Jeung Yim and Chan Koon Pak.

[choylee]

Poon Dik did also study with Leung Kwai. Leung Kwai studied with Jeung Yim and Chan Koon Pak.

First Do you confirm that ?
Leung Gui = Leong Gwei = Leung Gwai = Leung Gwai

Thanks

www.kungfu-choyleefut.com
(http://www.kungfu-choyleefut.com)

[choylee]

It's updated

www.kungfu-choyleefut.com (http://www.kungfu-choyleefut.com)

[JAZA]

It is passed down from our lineage in fut san, specifically by Qian Wei Fang that Jeung Hung Sing's first teacher was Lee Yau San.

how do you know tis isn't true? chan family records of Jeung Hung Sing is very very thin. are you saying this because is wasn't recorded in chan family records?

I'm not saying that because is wasn't recorded in Chan Family records, I'm saying it's not very plausible because it wasn't part of any tradition, including Fut San until recently. Just when old masters like Hu Yuen Chou passed away all this new information came out.

[hskwarrior]

I got you. however, this is the history of my lineage. There are lots of things that are coming from fut san that were never known before. like jeung hung sing being married and having two kids thats new info. the fact that chan ngau sing's direct bloodline still existed and his great grand daughter is still practicing CLF was never known until 2001.

Although, personally, i find it plausible because Jeung Hung Sing was from Sun Wui and that's where Lee Yau San was teaching. Another thing was, its always been suspected that Jeung Hung Sing had martial arts experience prior to arriving in King Mui in 1836. This would explain why he was able to pick up Chan Heung's gung fu relatively easy.

Until i come across something concrete that can prove other wise, i'd say i'm going to stick to what our elders tell us about the founder of our system (fut san hung sing CLF). :)

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank,

You think new information only came out from Futsan, here is a new piece from the Chan Family archive for you, (as far as I can see what is in my hands, quite a few pages were written about Jeung Ah-Yim but the public will never see them - too controversial. Also Jeung never studied with Lee Yau-Shan, otherwise it would have been written down):

Jeung Ah-Yim's father was a stone mason working in Hong Kong when he met Chan Heung (Chan Heung was invited there by the Guangdong Village Association), he was impressed by Chan Heung's skill after he defeated a Russian boxer and wanted his son to study with Chan Heung.

Jeung Ah-Yim's father gave him the nick name Hung Sing (Victorious Hung) 洪勝 very early on and was never used as a CLF branch name like you insisted, because he taught his boy Hung Kuen very young and wanted him to grow up to be a winner with his Kung Fu study.

I can understand you won't believe me because this is written in Chan Yiu-Chi hand writing and not by his father Koon-Pak or by Chan Heung himself (I don't have these records). You are going to say it is just made up by Chan Yiu-Chi.

I'll leave at that.

XJ

BTW, you just turned 43 and I just turned 63, so happy birthday!

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank,

There you go, when a westerner turned 42, we say in Chinese he turned 43 because we go by the lunar year.

You said Hung is for Hung-men and Chan Yiu-Chi said Hung is for Hung-kuen, it is your words against his and since he is dead, I can only go by his writing, take it or leave it.

XJ

[extrajoseph]

Joseph,

Why would Chan Yiu Chi's version have more weight over the actual lineage?

Hi Frank,

At least I can get hold of a written record from his time (Chan Yiu-Chi 1892-1965), can you get hold of a written record from someone of his position and time (say before 1949) to say otherwise? It is not that long ago.

XJ

[CLFNole]

As much as I love to watch you 2 argue I will offer my 2 cents (not that anyone cares).

It seems to me that by offerring up Jeung Yim having studied with Lee Yau San it gives the appearance of trying to get more on an equal level with Chan Heung. Does Jeung Yim really need that? His kung fu should just speak on its own and no matter what he was Chan Heung's student so that can't me diminished in any why.

My biggest propblem with Jeung Yim having studied with Lee Yau San is this...Lee Yau San is acknowledged with brining in the active footwork to CLF. This is one thing I have always noticed as a difference between Chan style (if you will) and Jeung Yim's Hung Sing. Frank even you yourself have made point of the active footwork. This is in no way trying to say active footwork is better or worse but if in fact Lee Yau San was the source of this it would make sense that if Jeung Yim followed him it would be seen more in his hung sing line.

There are differences in the two lines that is certain; however I personally think that is attributed to lines morphing as they move ****her and ****her from the original source. I would wager that Chan Hueng's and Jeung Yim's kung fu was more close back then than what we see from each side now. That goes for both sides not just one.

As far as the Chan Yiu Chi history I don't what to beat that horse to death but just because he wrote stuff down doesn't make it entirely accurate as I can't completely document the life of my grandfather so I would imagine he would be the same. At the same time at least there is something documented which really can't be said for the hung sing side which lacks documented evidence.

Peace out.

[San Soo Sifu]

There are differences in the two lines that is certain; however I personally think that is attributed to lines morphing as they move f-a-r-t-h-e-r and f-a-r-t-h-e-r from the original source. I would wager that Chan Hueng's and Jeung Yim's kung fu was more close back then than what we see from each side now. That goes for both sides not just one.

Truth. I would say that applies to all branches of CLF; and not just the two being discussed. Things tend to change (or morph, as you put it) over time.

[hskwarrior]

It seems to me that by offerring up Jeung Yim having studied with Lee Yau San it gives the appearance of trying to get more on an equal level with Chan Heung. Does Jeung Yim really need that? His kung fu should just speak on its own and no matter what he was Chan Heung's student so that can't me diminished in any why.

Does he NEED it? how about it just being true? why does it have to be a lie? why isn't it possible? is there anything concrete enough to debunk it? This information didn't come from me, it came from Fut San. Since that is my lineage, its what i'm focusing on.

Jeung Hung Sing was a small child (under the age of 12) when he learned from Lee Yau San, and there's no telling what he learned from him whether it was a little or alot. what is common in the history is that Jeung Hung Sing was thought to have been trained already because he picked up chan heung's gung fu so quickyl. and the whole reason jeung hung sing went to chan heung is because his parents were killed and his uncle couldn't take care of him any longer. anyways, since jeung hung sing was so young i really don't think it should be such an issue.

Now the footwork in the forms are not the same footwork i see in CHOY LEE FUT when it comes to fighting. i have yet to see a chan family member move around in combat like they do in their forms. and who is to say that it was FOOTWORK that Jeung Hung Sing focused on? Lee Gar is far more than just foot work.


There are differences in the two lines that is certain; however I personally think that is attributed to lines morphing as they move ****her and ****her from the original source.

Jeung Hung Sing moved from CHOY LEE FUT's original source in 1841 to learn Fut Gar Kuen.


I would wager that Chan Hueng's and Jeung Yim's kung fu was more close back then than what we see from each side now

what are you basing this on?


At the same time at least there is something documented which really can't be said for the hung sing side which lacks documented evidence.

IF chan heung was able to document whatever he did, then why is Jeung Hung Sing left out of it? Just because Chan Heung didn't document Jeung Hung Sing does that mean the latter didn't exist, have his life, teach his students, fight in the many revolutions he was known to fight in, or even have a legacy today?

people are too busy worrying who is on top, who is trying to blah blah blah. The history of CLF does not make any branch better than the other.

[hskwarrior]

Oh...CLFNOLE......

If you and the entire Lee Koon Hung lineage were wanted criminals whose sentence would be death for sure, would you worry about documenting your history? I would answer no cause they were actually LIVING it till death. being in possession of documents that would lead to your death i highly doubt you would have.

The Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon founder and students were wanted by the police and government for their activities with the Hung Mun and the many revolutions they participated in.

Sorry, recording their own history would be the last thing on their minds IMHO.

Oh, and about the footwork, fut san's primary system is Fut Gar Kuen over Choy Lee Fut and Lee Gar. So thats where our foot work comes from. Not the Lee Gar System.

[hskwarrior]

CLFNOLE,

To a certain extent i agree with you about it changing as it gets further away from the source. It reminds me of Yuen Hai (Lau Bun's teacher) and Chan Ngau Sing, two very important focal points in the history of Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut.

Being that Yuen Hai was there from the beginning and was one of the three original students of Jeung Hung Sing, Lau Bun was taught the way Yuen Hai got it from Jeung Hung Sing. But, Hung Sing Kuen (Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut) under Chan Ngau Sing was taken to the next level for a new generation.

Since Lau Bun wasn't a student of Chan Ngau Sing, he never picked up the new stuff that was being created by him. He just taught what he learned from Yuen Hai. From what i've noticed is there are some major changes in the Chan Ngau Sing lineage, but there is still alot that is the same as found in my lineage.

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank,

The question is not whether who has more weight, who is on top or not, the question is whether there are written documents or records to support one's claim. That is what historical research is all about.

You can change your history as much as you like, but to be convincing there has to be supporting evidence. If not it is just a theory or a hearsay, that is all, and that goes for stories or legends about our grandfather or great uncles.

XJ

[Drake]

I worked on kicks, strikes, and stance transition today... smoothing out some edges during changes. I have gotten into the habit of doing "clumps of forms", where I will find a particular combination and repeat it, instead of doing the whole thing over and over.

Tomorrow I'll work on my Mandarin language training a bit.

BTW... an Emu was the one who invented CLF. Taught it to some other Emus, who eventually taught it to Steve Hawking and Pee Wee Herman. Pee Wee was eventually called the Green Grass Monk, due to his bad habit of "pulling a load", which would lead to him sweating, and smoke starting to come out his nose.

This is why you'll never beat me with conventional weapons.

[hskwarrior]

You can change your history as much as you like, but to be convincing there has to be supporting evidence. If not it is just a theory or a hearsay, that is all, and that goes for stories or legends about our grandfather or great uncles.

But all of your information on the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon falls apart far worst than a wet paper bag with a bowling ball in it. Come on, just look at the Choy Fook being Ching Cho fiasco.

you still have answered why i or anyone should believe Chan Yiu Chi over that of the actual Hung Sing lineage.

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank,

I am not asking you to believe in Chan Yiu-Chi, I am asking you to look up what he has to say and compare with the information you are given, after all he is the grandson of Chan Heung, much closer to the source than your Futsan elders. The Chan family knew Jeung Ah-Yim since he is 12 and also his father, how long have your Futsan elders knew him?

XJ

[hskwarrior]

based on what you've already stated, plus the fact that you guys seem to think Jeung Hung Sing was only in the picture around 1867 is enough for me to say NO THANK YOU. i mean i'd read it, but i can't trust it.

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank,

Information gets lost and twisted over time, the earlier the source the more reliable it becomes is the general consensus of the historians.

But you can take it or leave it.

XJ

[hskwarrior]

thanks joseph.

but, if you want to write it down here in this thread...i'll take a look.

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank,

This is what Chan Yiu-Chi has to say about how Jeung Ah-Yim first met Chan Heung:

Jeung Ah-Yim's father was a stone mason working in Hong Kong when he met Chan Heung (Chan Heung was invited there by the Guangdong Village Association), he was impressed by Chan Heung's skill after he defeated a Russian boxer and wanted his son to study with Chan Heung.

Jeung Ah-Yim's father gave him the nick name Hung Sing (Victorious Hung) 洪勝 very early on, in hope that his son will be invincible with his Hung Kuen skill, that the father has taught his son before meeting Chan Heung.

XJ

[hskwarrior]

and do you mind telling me what his source of information was since this was never documented by Chan Heung?

[hskwarrior]

According to our history, Jeung Hung Sing was orphaned and was under the care of Jeung Kwan-his uncle who had to leave on business. HE was friends with Chan Heung and hoped his old friend could look after Jeung Ah Yim.

One thing the Chan Fam and Fut San Hung Sing branch agree on is that Jeung Ah Yim was 12 years old when he came to Chan Heung.

But, since there is no documentation of Jeung Ah Yim by Chan Heung, don't you think the only right thing to do is go to its source with an unbiased mind?

And i believe that what you posted is sketchy because out of all the people who have looked at the family archives, none has ever stated that the Hung Sing name came from Jeung Hung Sing's father.

On the other hand, our lineage has always claimed that Jeung ah Yim got the Hung Sing name from Ching Cho. Now i've got the strongest possible link to the origin of the Hung Sing name and its connection to monk ching cho which is very very hard to dispute.

[extrajoseph]

And i believe that what you posted is sketchy because out of all the people who have looked at the family archives, none has ever stated that the Hung Sing name came from Jeung Hung Sing's father.

dispute.

Hi Frnak,

What all people who have looked at the Chan family archive?

XJ

[hskwarrior]

you know **** well who i'm talking about lets not play these games. i know you know who has been back to to king mui.

[hskwarrior]

and do you mind telling me what his source of information was since this was never documented by Chan Heung?

CAN YOU ANSWER THAT PLEASE?

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank,

How can you be sure it is not documented by Chan Heung and his family?

As I mentioned earlier, a lot has been written about Jeung Ah-Yim in the Chan family archive because he was a key player, but the public would never see them because it is too controversial.

If you think ..... has been back to King Mui a few time and got a look in the archive (he even give the impression he has a few copies of the original), then you are just too naive.

I'll leave at that.

XJ

[hskwarrior]

you can keep your version of my lineages history. like i said, i will trust my lineage and elders. you trust yours......regardless of how wrong it might be.

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank,

Then we are not talking about CLF history but about faith in our elders.

Personally, I have respect for my elders but I don't trust everything that they tell me, I try to find out about it myself and go as close to the source as possible.

As far as CLF history is concerned, I cannot go further than Chan Yiu-Chi's writing, so until you have something better, other than your Futsan elders' hearsay, I know my score and I know how you keep yours - by faith and not by the records.

XJ

[hskwarrior]

Joseph

WHEN DID CHAN YIU CHI WRITE THE INFORMATION IN HIS MANUAL?

What age was he when he documented this?

[hskwarrior]

Hi Joseph,

I predict you will skirt these questions or give me some bs answer. I'm quite sure of this. But, i will give it a go anyway.

When does Chan Yiu Chi say Jeung Hung Sing trained with his grand Father?

Does it say that Chan Heung sent Jeung Hung Sing to Fut San to open a CLF school for Chan Heung?

what other important details are there in Chan Yiu Chi's manual that will give us insight into Jeung Hung Sing?

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank,

As I mentioned earlier there are quite a few details about Jeung Ah-Yim and if you are interested, please contact the Chan Family.

I have personally seen some of the documents (probably written in the 40s and 50s) and the answers that you are looking for are all there (and much much more than you bargain for) in Chan Yiu-Chi's own hand writing. He does beautiful calligraphy in a distinctive style.

All the Chan family forms are written down plus Tit Da and medical formulae, so if you want to know how the Chan Family does their Siu Mui Fa for example, just look it up!

XJ

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank,

If Futsan has also documented their oral history before the Communist take over or at least before the cultural revolution, where are they?

XJ

[extrajoseph]

If you are going to quote from choyleefut.org, please don't be selective to argue for your point of view, apart from Chan Yiu-Chi there are also documents pased down by Koon Pak:


As China settled down, Koon Pak set about writing down all the knowledge that his father had passed to him. His father had passed to him alone the training manuscripts he had written on this new art of Choy Lee Fut.

Koon Pak wrote down and created further manuals to provide a clear and concise description of his father’s art and how to go about training its huge arsenal of techniques.

You still have not answer my previous questions:


If Futsan has also documented their oral history before the Communist take over or at least before the cultural revolution, where are they?


XJ

[hskwarrior]

oh and Koon Pak had nothing documented about Jeung Hung Sing. hahahahaha



Both Chan Heung, our founder, and Koon Pak, his father, had committed to writing manuals on the essence and descriptions of the fundamentals to advanced techniques of Choy Lee Fut Fighting system.

[extrajoseph]

oh and Koon Pak had nothing documented about Jeung Hung Sing. hahahahaha

Hi Frank,

As far as I know, it is written that they fought each other in the presence of Loong Ji-Choi (witness account) after Chan Heung passed away. But you are not going to read about it in the popular press, nor I am going to say any more! Let's just say that a lot (and a few fights) has been written about Jeung Ah-Yim in the Chan family archive.

XJ

[hskwarrior]

thats nice joseph.

[hskwarrior]

i'm sorry...i have ...i can't stop laughing.

So you're saying that an 18 or so year old Chan Koon Pak fought Jeung Hung Sing who was in his 50's?

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank,

The try out was on Loong Ji-Choi first in Kong Men but Koon-Pak stepped in. BTW, your years are all mixed up, but let's don't go over this again, you have your faith and we have our records.

XJ

[hskwarrior]

OHHHHHHH jeung hung sing was alot younger? RIGHT THERE ALONE is why i will never trust your comments joseph.

So i guess you're telling me that Yuen Hai and Chan Ngau Sing didn't know how old their sifu was when he passed huh?

Believe Chan Yiu Chi who had to find the information from somewhere since it was never recorded in his own family huh?

[hskwarrior]

Hi Frank,

The try out was on Loong Ji-Choi first in Kong Men but Koon-Pak stepped in. BTW, your years are all mixed up, but let's don't go over this again, you have your faith and we have our records.

XJ

after you revision of your comments, what years am i off on brother joseph? am i off in my years like your are in the actual birthdate of Chan Heung?

[hskwarrior]

oh joseph, you mention i am lead by faith, well.....DID YOU SEE CHAN YIU CHI WRITE THESE MANUALS? were you there to witness it? how do you know he wrote it? how do you know someone didn't write it and just put his name on it?

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank,


after you revision of your comments, what years am i off on brother joseph? am i off in my years like your are in the actual birthdate of Chan Heung?

Koon Pak was 28 when his father died so he would at least be 28 and not 18. You can make up the year for Jeung Ah-Yim as you like.

XJ

[extrajoseph]

oh joseph, you mention i am lead by faith, well.....DID YOU SEE CHAN YIU CHI WRITE THESE MANUALS? were you there to witness it? how do you know he wrote it? how do you know someone didn't write it and just put his name on it?

Hi Frank,

Chan Yiu-Chi wrote them by his own hands with ink and brush so you know it is his own work, you don't have to be there to watch him writing it to say that he wrote it, his writing is his signature and one can tell if someone tried to forge it, also it is not easy to keep record of 300 forms without referring to earlier materials, even harder to make them all up!

XJ

[hskwarrior]

Uhhhhh......WHAT?

whoah...what do you guys have two birthdates again?

Chan Fam says Chan Heung was born in 1805 and Fut San says 1815.
Now, i got two chan family websites that give two different dates for the birth of Chan Heung's son.

what i DO notice is that same "10" year theme.

I should believe you WHY again?

[hskwarrior]

As for the manuals, Chan Yiu-Chi re-edited them from material passed down by his father and grandfather, not only oral transmissions but also written words, according to the source you quoted (choyleefut.org).

you and i both know Chan Heung doesn't have anything really in regards to Jeung Hung Sing in his records.

nice try though. Keep trying. :D

[hskwarrior]

i Frank,

Chan Yiu-Chi wrote them by his own hand so you know it is his own work, it is not easy to keep record of 300 forms without referring to earlier materials, even harder to make them all up!

How do you know that it was written by Chan Yiu Chi's own hand? Have you or anyone gotten any Handwriting analysis going on about this? what did you use to compare? anything that was notarized?

and i notice you are always stating something....then you go back and alter it. very sneaky

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank,

Then you obviously have not seen any of the manuscripts! Besides, I am not untrained in this area.

I am always trying to edit my writings here to make it sound easier for you to understand, yet you think I am trying to cover something up.

What can I say? I am wasting my time here with you!

XJ

[hskwarrior]

you ARE joseph. you have been doing that since i first got on this forum old buddy.

[hskwarrior]

Hi Frank,

Chan Yiu-Chi wrote them by his own hands with ink and brush so you know it is his own work, you don't have to be there to watch him writing it to say that he wrote it, his writing is his signature and one can tell if someone tried to forge it, also it is not easy to keep record of 300 forms without referring to earlier materials, even harder to make them all up!

XJ

Mr. funny man!!!!!

[hskwarrior]

A Quick Comparison
I am only doing the following because i really do think it's important that others understand that if you want to know the truth about the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon, then you should go to the source and study the history prior to speaking up. it is not intended to offend anyone, but this is my lineages history we are talking about.

Chan Heung Branch founders version of Jeung Hung Sing's History:

Q: When was Jeung Ah Yim born? A: Not Recorded.
Q: When did Jeung Ah Yim first start learning from Chan Heung? A: Not Recorded
Q: How long did Jeung Ah Yim train with Chan Heung? A: Not Recorded.
Q: When did Jeung Ah Yim pass away? A: Not Recorded
Q: What did Chan Heung teach Jeung Ah Yim? A: Not Recorded
Q: Who Gave Jeung Ah Yim the Hung Sing name? A: Not Recorded
Q: Who was the Green Grass Monk? A: Not Recorded
Q: What is documented about Jeung Ah Yim by Chan Heung? A: Jeung Hung Sing returned to Fut San to re-open his Hung Sing Kwoon.

Now, it's well known that Jeung Ah Yim (Jeung Hung Sing) was a famous former student of Chan Heung. In one corner of your mouth you say Jeung Hung Sing was one of Chan Heung's favorite students. So in saying, Jeung Hung Sing was a well known figure in southern Chinese martial arts. Yet there is nothing documented about him by Chan Family Choy Lee Fut founder Chan Heung.

The following would be answers coming from the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon, the source of our lineage:

Q: When was Jeung Ah Yim born? A: 1824.
Q: When did Jeung Ah Yim first start learning from Chan Heung? A: in 1836 at the age of 12 years old.
Q: How long did Jeung Ah Yim train with Chan Heung? A: for 5 years from the age of 12-17 years old (1836-1841).
Q: When did Jeung Ah Yim pass away? A: 1893 at the age of 69.
Q: What did Chan Heung teach Jeung Ah Yim? A: The earliest stages of Chan Heung's Choy Lee Fut as it was far from completed in its evolution.
Q: Who Gave Jeung Ah Yim the Hung Sing name? A: Monk Ching Cho
Q: Who was the Green Grass Monk? A: A former Shaolin Monk, and co-founder of the Hung Mun Secret Society.
Q: What is documented about Jeung Ah Yim by Chan Heung? A: Jeung Hung Sing returned to Fut San to re-open his Hung Sing kwoon.

After leaving Chan Heung in 1841, Jeung Hung Sing spent the next 30 plus years developing Hung Sing Kuen which was a combination of the Lee Gar he learned from Lee Yau San, the early Choy Lee Fut and Fut Gar Kuen. Then sometime in the early to mid 1860's Jeung Hung Sing returned to his former sifu and this is where Chan Heung's CLF changed a bit due to Jeung Hung Sing's Fut Gar Kuen contributions to Choy Lee Fut evolutionary path.

While Choy Lee Fut in King Mui developed on its own course, the same was happening with Jeung Hung Sing's Hung Sing CLF. the two branches developed their martial arts separately. I know it has to make you wonder why there are no chan family forms found in any true hung sing branch. and there definitely is a reason to it too.

One day, i do hope the history issue can rest peacefully, but it looks like we still have a ways got go.

[hskwarrior]

you don't have to be there to watch him writing it to say that he wrote it,

So if i produced a document and said it came from Chan Yiu Chi you would just automatically believe me huh?

[hskwarrior]

I am not asking you to believe in Chan Yiu-Chi, I am asking you to look up what he has to say and compare with the information you are given, after all he is the grandson of Chan Heung, much closer to the source than your Futsan elders. The Chan family knew Jeung Ah-Yim since he is 12 and also his father, how long have your Futsan elders knew him?

How can the outlined be? Chan Yiu Chi was not a student of the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon. How can he be closer to the Hung Sing source than Jeung Hung Sing? we are talking about my family lineage NOT yours.

[Violent Designs]

This never gets old guys. ;)

[hskwarrior]

hhahaha i like battling with Joseph, but i don't get mad like i used to cause i know that i found the answers that neither HE nor the Chan Fam manuals could answer. no need anymore to be upset over history.

the way i see it is like everyone likes to spar....this is the way me and joseph spars.

[hskwarrior]

http://www.clfkungfu.com/images/stories/history/arb.jpg

[Violent Designs]

My grandfather once told me that arguing is an exercise... of the mind.

I was 4 years old and went WTF.

[hskwarrior]

i will admit that arguing with Joseph has forced me to dig hard into the history, moreso than what i had. i mean look, i even found a sh1t load of info on the green grass monk. so in that sense, was indeed useful to me :D

[Violent Designs]

i will admit that arguing with Joseph has forced me to dig hard into the history, moreso than what i had. i mean look, i even found a sh1t load of info on the green grass monk. so in that sense, was indeed useful to me :D

Ya, I bet. :)

[choylee]

Updated tree :)

[soulfist]

In that Choi Lei Fut tree, it looks like its showing both Poon Sing and Chan Wan Hon as students of Chan Ngau Sing... is that what its showing?

[CLFNole]

That tree is a bit off.

[choylee]

In that Choi Lei Fut tree, it looks like its showing both Poon Sing and Chan Wan Hon as students of Chan Ngau Sing... is that what its showing?

no ,
Chin Wai Fong, Tong Sek and and Hu Yuen Chou were students of Chan Ngau-Sing

it's updated.