Too much technique, not enough foundation.

[David Jamieson]

Who has this issue with their regimen?
Who recognizes it?

I find that strength conditioning, stamina, and force conditioning are better than 50% of what you need to do to be a decent martial artist.

Do you find yourself working more on shape or on building the stone pile you need to be?

[Frost]

Who has this issue with their regimen?
Who recognizes it?

I find that strength conditioning, stamina, and force conditioning are better than 50% of what you need to do to be a decent martial artist.

Do you find yourself working more on shape or on building the stone pile you need to be?

Nope not these days, strength and conditioning is inbuilt into what we do on a daily basis.

And you are right its why football players, rugby players and even soccer players do so well in street fights, they are fit conditioned athletes used to taking pain, that is way more than 50% of the battle

[Syn7]

i try to do all technique at school and the rest at home... its about maximizing sifu time :D i wanna get the whole system before he retires... i can do alot of things without his help but some things i cant do without his help so i try to use that as a guideline... aside from weapons, there isnt anything at the school i dont have at home... i go to every class... well, actually thats not true... i took a break this summer, but otherwise, i go to em all... the sunday morning one is hard to get up for sometimes though... i prefer the night classes... only problem is we finish around 1030pm - 1130pm and its hard to just go home and get to sleep right away...

[Scott R. Brown]

I have always done both myself from the beginning some 35 years ago. Back then not many MA used strength training, ran or did extra stretching (away from class). None of my cohorts did and my instructor frowned upon it, but I didn't care. I knew more about training than they did. Of course now-a-days, all the smart ones do some kind of extra form of conditioning.

[Syn7]

I have always done both myself from the beginning some 35 years ago. Back then not many MA used strength training, ran or did extra stretching (away from class). None of my cohorts did and my instructor frowned upon it, but I didn't care. I knew more about training than they did. Of course now-a-days, all the smart ones do some kind of extra form of conditioning.

your instructor frowned upon strength training and exercise outside of class??? what was the style? was it any good?

[Kansuke]

Nope not these days, strength and conditioning is inbuilt into what we do on a daily basis.

And you are right its why football players, rugby players and even soccer players do so well in street fights, they are fit conditioned athletes used to taking pain, that is way more than 50% of the battle


Yeah, the soccer players are good at pretending to be hurt so they can throw themselves down in pretend agony and hope the other guy goes away (or someone gives him a colored card or something...)

[YouKnowWho]

A: Dear teacher! What should I do at home?
B: You don't need to do anything! 3 times a week training in my school should be enough for you.
A: Should I try to work on some sole drills?
B: You should not! You may build bad habit that way.
A: Should I run, work on weight?
B: Why? Are you trying to compete in Obympic game? You are not that good yet.
A: :confused: :confused: :confused:

Some style believes the only way to train is in school under teacher's watch. Any training at home may build up "bad habit". They don't believe in solo training, equipment training. They also believe that unless you want to compete in Olympic event, 3 times a week school training should be more than enough. That kind of thinking is different from my personal believe that "Learn in school (school work) and train at home (home work)".

[Scott R. Brown]

your instructor frowned upon strength training and exercise outside of class??? what was the style? was it any good?

No...it was not very good and I never speak of them. They have fallen into a McDojo/New Age/Semi-cult status. I am pretty much persona non grata and have only kept a very distant and loose association for some 20 or more years now.

It started out as a good idea, Ark Wong's Five Animals, Judo, Boxing and Kajukenbo. It is only slightly less bad as the Nammies, but much much smaller in size! I was the only real athlete/jock that ever trained with them. So no one else really understood the principles of conditioning or proper training.

[Yum Cha]

Conditioning is conditioning.

If you are talking about technique, isn't foundation more than strength?

[Scott R. Brown]

Conditioning is conditioning.

If you are talking about technique, isn't foundation more than strength?

I am not sure what you are asking here. Your sentence doesn't quite make sense!:)

[Scott R. Brown]

Wait a sec....

I think I got it. What you are saying is, "Isn't technique part of a good foundation?"

Is that it?

If so, he is talking about a different context for the word foundation. Technique is a skill that has a foundation, but he is talking about a foundation of physical conditioning!

[Frost]

Yeah, the soccer players are good at pretending to be hurt so they can throw themselves down in pretend agony and hope the other guy goes away (or someone gives him a colored card or something...)

Have you anything constructive to offer, i am wondering have you spent any time around soccer players, pros that is? they are fit tough lads used to a fair degree of contact, i have seen more than a few pros get into confilcts in the pubs where i come from, and they dont often lose the fights.

What they do on the field of play within the rules of the game and what they do outside when in a conflict is totaly different...and my point is being a ft conditioned athlete used to contact is half the battle...are you disagreeing........................

[Scott R. Brown]

Certainly the ability to take a punch is beneficial and basic fitness as well as heart, and a very low IQ, participate in this ability.

I knew a guy some 30 years ago, took a baseball bat to his head. He promptly trashed the guy who hit him. Apparently, the blow didn't phase him in the least!

[Kansuke]

Have you anything constructive to offer, i am wondering have you spent any time around soccer players, pros that is? they are fit tough lads used to a fair degree of contact, i have seen more than a few pros get into confilcts in the pubs where i come from, and they dont often lose the fights.........................



Yeah, as fairy princesses go they are hard core.

[Kansuke]

What they do on the field of play within the rules of the game .......................


Yes, I know soccer sucks.

[Frost]

Yes, I know soccer sucks.
true its not like its the worlds most popular game or anything:rolleyes:

[Scott R. Brown]

Yeah, as fairy princesses go they are hard core.

With an attittude like that, why don't you just prance on over here and I'll hit you over head with my Barbie doll...you ruffian!

[jdhowland]

One of my favorite training partners is a seasoned rugby footballer. He brings that attitude to our training sessions. He never gives up his ground.

Back on track: I had the misfortune to take an interest in a system that grew into a huge curriculum of techniques and weapons. It also stresses running, weight training, hei gung and body toughening. It's a good system with good emphasis on conditoning. But I decided to help preserve the tradition by learning as much as I could. Spent a lot of time exploring the meaning of the techniques.

When I was in my 20s and training six hours a day it was fine. Now I'm in my 50s and realize that I could happily spend the rest of my life exploring maybe 10% of what I learned, (and what I learned was only a small portion of what my sigung taught). I think of it as a distillation of the gross into the sublime. The breadth of a system is only an expression of the essence.

[Drake]

Are we really out of things to discuss? This topic has been beaten to death for eons.

[David Jamieson]

Are we really out of things to discuss? This topic has been beaten to death for eons.

lol, dude, is this really your contribution?

My personal view is that strong foundation is driver for everything.
Techniques that are effective come off the structure of a good foundation.

weak legs translates out as weak attacks, no staying power translates out as you may as well not even have worked on techniques if you can't deliver them.

gassing is what I am talking about here.

For hobbiest martial artists like most of us are in the purest of senses what is a reasonable compromise that would allow for that kind of development in a time where we have so many other commitments that a full regimen of martial training is not realistic for the average dude?

[Drake]

lol, dude, is this really your contribution?

My personal view is that strong foundation is driver for everything.
Techniques that are effective come off the structure of a good foundation.

weak legs translates out as weak attacks, no staying power translates out as you may as well not even have worked on techniques if you can't deliver them.

gassing is what I am talking about here.

For hobbiest martial artists like most of us are in the purest of senses what is a reasonable compromise that would allow for that kind of development in a time where we have so many other commitments that a full regimen of martial training is not realistic for the average dude?

I don't HAVE a contribution that hasn't been said a million times before I was even BORN.

[Syn7]

No...it was not very good and I never speak of them. They have fallen into a McDojo/New Age/Semi-cult status. I am pretty much persona non grata and have only kept a very distant and loose association for some 20 or more years now.

It started out as a good idea, Ark Wong's Five Animals, Judo, Boxing and Kajukenbo. It is only slightly less bad as the Nammies, but much much smaller in size! I was the only real athlete/jock that ever trained with them. So no one else really understood the principles of conditioning or proper training.

dayum... so i imaginew you manhandled your peers then huh... did they ever stop you when you were winning and tell you you were wrong? i hate that... i refuse to learn to fight from somebody i can beat up, unless the age diff is huge ofcourse... its like taking diet advice from a fat nutritionist... im not saying they cant help, but i want experienced teachers, not theoretical ones...

[Frost]

lol, dude, is this really your contribution?

My personal view is that strong foundation is driver for everything.
Techniques that are effective come off the structure of a good foundation.

weak legs translates out as weak attacks, no staying power translates out as you may as well not even have worked on techniques if you can't deliver them.

gassing is what I am talking about here.

For hobbiest martial artists like most of us are in the purest of senses what is a reasonable compromise that would allow for that kind of development in a time where we have so many other commitments that a full regimen of martial training is not realistic for the average dude?


What question are you asking, is conditioning important, is it more important than technique, so how do you train both on a hobbiests scedule?

if you are talking about the latter then to really inprove aerobic conditioning you need to work on it 3 to 5 days a week for anything up to an hour at a time, if you have too many commitments the most sensible answer is to include your conditioning in your class, working on techniques at such a rate that you are also working on your aerobic base,

[Scott R. Brown]

dayum... so i imaginew you manhandled your peers then huh... did they ever stop you when you were winning and tell you you were wrong? i hate that... i refuse to learn to fight from somebody i can beat up, unless the age diff is huge ofcourse... its like taking diet advice from a fat nutritionist... im not saying they cant help, but i want experienced teachers, not theoretical ones...

Let's just say I did not feel I was fully understood or appreciated, but that was many many years ago. I stayed long enough to get my blackbelt and then went on to do my own thing.

I do have to say the blackbelt test was grueling, 7.5 hours and I lost 15 lbs!

It was a learning experience. I am still good friends with a few of my comrades from back then, one is my brother-in-law who on longer trains in that art either.

[Syn7]

I do have to say the blackbelt test was grueling, 7.5 hours and I lost 15 lbs!


wow... you lost 15lbs in training leading up to the 7hr test or you actually lost 15lbs during the test???

what did the test require you to do???

i couldnt lose 15 pounds riding a stationary bike full tilt for 8 hrs in a too hot sauna with a weightcutting suit duct taped around mt neck wrists and ankles with winter socks, mittens and a full bankrobber style skimask while having fasted for 24 hours leading up to it... i'd die at around the 2 hour mark:D

[Kansuke]

true its not like its the worlds most popular game or anything:rolleyes:

Yeah, taking a **** is popular all over the world too. It still results in ****.

[Kansuke]

I do have to say the blackbelt test was grueling, 7.5 hours and I lost 15 lbs!
.



If you lost 15lbs in 7.5 hours you were either really fat to start with or had just consumed a keg of water prior to the test.

[Kansuke]

With an attittude like that, why don't you just prance on over here and I'll hit you over head with my Barbie doll...you ruffian!

Oh, you brute!

[Scott R. Brown]

wow... you lost 15lbs in training leading up to the 7hr test or you actually lost 15lbs during the test???

what did the test require you to do???

i couldnt lose 15 pounds riding a stationary bike full tilt for 8 hrs in a too hot sauna with a weightcutting suit duct taped around mt neck wrists and ankles with winter socks, mittens and a full bankrobber style skimask while having fasted for 24 hours leading up to it... i'd die at around the 2 hour mark:D


If you lost 15lbs in 7.5 hours you were either really fat to start with or had just consumed a keg of water prior to the test.

I weighed 165# before the test and 150# after the test. I drank copious amounts of water and Gatorade during the test. I had leg cramps after about 5 hrs at which time they told us, one other guy was testing with me, we were almost done. LOL!! Almost done turned out to be another 2.5 hrs., but just the idea we were almost done made the cramps go away.

We did everything we had ever learned, with a bunch of new things thrown in to test our adaptability, and all of it more than once. We did our forms, we only had 3 or 4 long forms, probably 5-10 times a piece; short forms, another maybe 5-10 of those, all of the techniques and combinations, over and over again, let’s say maybe 30 of those, with new ones thrown in; throws, sparring, and all the basics over and over again. At this point in our training, we were not given the test as a means of evaluating our ability, but our heart.

My test was the hardest they gave, and to my knowledge the hardest ever given, although I know of at least one test that was 6 hrs, none were as hard as mine. Most of the students couldn’t survive my test, and I felt at the time that I barely did!

Remember I was, what I call, a REAL athlete. I was a state class swimmer in high school. Four hour workouts were standard for me during inseason training with an added 2 hours in the morning during double session workouts. And I have always continued to train long hours most of my life, on training days. Only the last few years have I reduced by training time drastically, due to injury.

15 years ago I was still training 5.5 hrs a day, 4 days a week. :)

[David Jamieson]

Jeez, forget I even posted.

Not very productive here.

Oh well.

[Scott R. Brown]

Jeez, forget I even posted.

Not very productive here.

Oh well.

It's hard to be productive when everyone already agrees with you!:eek:

:)

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I weighed 165# before the test and 150# after the test. I drank copious amounts of water and Gatorade during the test. I had leg cramps after about 5 hrs at which time they told us, one other guy was testing with me, we were almost done. LOL!! Almost done turned out to be another 2.5 hrs., but just the idea we were almost done made the cramps go away.

We did everything we had ever learned, with a bunch of new things thrown in to test our adaptability, and all of it more than once. We did our forms, we only had 3 or 4 long forms, probably 5-10 times a piece; short forms, another maybe 5-10 of those, all of the techniques and combinations, over and over again, let’s say maybe 30 of those, with new ones thrown in; throws, sparring, and all the basics over and over again. At this point in our training, we were not given the test as a means of evaluating our ability, but our heart.

My test was the hardest they gave, and to my knowledge the hardest ever given, although I know of at least one test that was 6 hrs, none were as hard as mine. Most of the students couldn’t survive my test, and I felt at the time that I barely did!

Remember I was, what I call, a REAL athlete. I was a state class swimmer in high school. Four hour workouts were standard for me during inseason training with an added 2 hours in the morning during double session workouts. And I have always continued to train long hours most of my life, on training days. Only the last few years have I reduced by training time drastically, due to injury.

15 years ago I was still training 5.5 hrs a day, 4 days a week. :)

So you are saying you were the only one given this grueling test for black belt?:confused: What kind of horse sh**it is that? What did the others have to do, skip across the floor and do a few forms? I guess I agree that standards can be higher on an individual basis but a test, especially for black belt, should not vary that drastically per person. I think I would have been pi***ssed about that one!

[Scott R. Brown]

So you are saying you were the only one given this grueling test for black belt?:confused: What kind of horse sh**it is that? What did the others have to do, skip across the floor and do a few forms? I guess I agree that standards can be higher on an individual basis but a test, especially for black belt, should not vary that drastically per person. I think I would have been pi***ssed about that one!

I was VERY pi$$ed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

I believed the test would have killed most people! I was also surprised I lived! My test was harder because I was in such good condition. Like I said above, the test was less about skill and more about heart.

I was also impressed my partner passed, because he was not in as good condition as I was. It was hard for me, but it had to be harder for him.

Think of it as a one day BUDS training. They are trying to get you to quit. Throughout the whole test they offered, in a very kind and thoughtful demeanor, to allow you to quit and try again another time!

I should also say, I went straight to 3rd degree black. Probably 15 years or so later I officiated at another test and I refused to pass the person. They offered a 1st degree instead of a 3rd degree and I accepted that as a compromise.

[Kansuke]

I was VERY pi$$ed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

I believed the test would have killed most people! I was also surprised I lived! My test was harder because I was in such good condition.



........................... :rolleyes:

[Syn7]

I should also say, I went straight to 3rd degree black.

whaaa???? that seems odd to me...

[Scott R. Brown]

whaaa???? that seems odd to me...

No, its actually not unusual! Remember rankings are a pretty modern contrivance. While we had ranks, remember it was over 30 years ago, we didn't put much focus on it, or even tests. If your instructor is paying attention he knows what you know and what you can do. I skipped a few ranks on my way up and most people did back then. At our school, the only important tests were brown belt and black belt. The brown belt, because that is when you were trained to teach classes, and of course the black belt because that authorized you teach. I never asked why I tested for 3rd degree. I didn't really care. I got tired of the politics by that time. I only stayed for the piece of paper. Once I got it, I faded in to the ethers!

Tests are technically irrelevant. They are mostly used to keep students coming to a school. That is why they have belts with stripes now-a-days. Its an artificial measure used to make you think you are progressing and actually gaining something and then continue to pay your money.

I think I skipped

[Syn7]

ive never been to a school that had belts... even bjj(no gi ofcourse) we based skill levels on time put in and what you show on the mats... in bak mei its about time in and how well yopu perform... i dont really understand the whole belt thing...


is it true that originally they used a clean belt and when you were really good from training the belt was so dirty and stained that it was darker... thus the ugliest belt meant they had the most experience...??? true or false??? sounds like a neat story, but i dunno how true it is...

what were you doing again??? cma??? what style was the 3rd degree belt in??? what else u do??? what belts u got???

[Scott R. Brown]

ive never been to a school that had belts... even bjj(no gi ofcourse) we based skill levels on time put in and what you show on the mats... in bak mei its about time in and how well yopu perform... i dont really understand the whole belt thing...


is it true that originally they used a clean belt and when you were really good from training the belt was so dirty and stained that it was darker... thus the ugliest belt meant they had the most experience...??? true or false??? sounds like a neat story, but i dunno how true it is...

what were you doing again??? cma??? what style was the 3rd degree belt in??? what else u do??? what belts u got???

I think that belt story is a fantasy dreamed up by someone. Jigoro Kano popularized the modern use of colored belts for Judo. If you didn't know, his purpose was to create a Marital activity for fitness and health...and some self-defense purposes. But mostly it was for competition purposes.

I don't mention the name of the art I studied. I think I posted it in my profile. It was originally a combination of Ark Wong's Five Animals, Kajukenbo, Judo and boxing, since then they have added some Chin na and a little bit of grappling I think. It start as a good idea, but over the years fell into semi-cultish behavior. I bowed out completely when they started awarding each other titles of Master and Grand-Master which I think is pretty bogus. It is just a way to create status and has no real bearing on ability and in my opinion, reflects a bit of immaturity. We don't live in old China here in America, I don't believe in pretending I am Japanese or Chinese.

Since my blackbelt 31 years ago, I have studied White Crane, Tai Chi, Aikido, Aiki-jutsu, and informal grappling skills. There might be more, but I don't really care. I go to particular martial arts schools to learn new abilities not to collect pieces or paper, belts or to be part of a group. I will play that particular schools game in order to be accepted, it is only considerate, but I don't buy into the game in my heart.

I have plans to take up Chen Tai Chi and perhaps some more Wong's Five Animals sometime in the future when I have the time. I work six nights a week, have a 2 1/2 year old daughter, a 14 year old boy and a 19 year old boy and I may have another child in a year or so. So you can see it is about all I can do to practice what I already know, LOL, much less take up new skills. But I will do something eventually, Probably the Tai Chi, one morning a week. With all of my years of experience I learn pretty fast.

I don't care about belts or schools. I don't even know the branch of Aiki-jutsu I studied. All I care about is what skill I am learning. I am to independent to want to be too attached to any school, although I do have my boys attending the Aikido school I did. That is mostly because of the instructor though and not because of it being a particular branch of Aikido.

[Syn7]

was your kajukenbo related to Kaido's kajukenbo??? kaido was also a student of Harry Ng, Hop Gar... any connection??? i like kaidos style... little dude had some nice power... and he was a thug, so you know he actually used it in real fights, not just demos and padded point comps...

[Syn7]

these guys???

http://kungfu5family.com/

[Yum Cha]

I went to watch one of those Black Belt gradings that lasts for several hours.....all the forms, step sparring, 2 mans...

At the end, when he had to fight 5 guys, rest, 5 more, rest, then start working through the other black belts in twos until the seniors...

It was absoulutly pointless.

Not one guy went for the takedown.....


<rimshot> :D

[Scott R. Brown]

was your kajukenbo related to Kaido's kajukenbo??? kaido was also a student of Harry Ng, Hop Gar... any connection??? i like kaidos style... little dude had some nice power... and he was a thug, so you know he actually used it in real fights, not just demos and padded point comps...

It was so long ago, I can't say. I know my instructor trained either with or under Dave Scully. I don't even know who he is. I never really cared. I am not into validating skill with history. You are good because you train hard and are not learning cr@p, not because someone in your art one, two of ten generations ago was good!