View Full Version : Wrestling
Hello to everyone,
I don't know if this topic has been posted yet and now I have been wondering where I can find some information about wrestling in China. For what I read, ground fighting techniques as in wrestling, judo or alike are quite inexistant in Kung fu except shuaijiao. As we know the importance of balance in street fighting I have always been puzzled about why I can not find similar techniques in TCM as in wrestling, ju-jitsu and other ground techniques. I can think that during those times the use of weapons: knife, staff, sword, etc. and lately guns will end any fight without the need of bare hands. Any enlightment will be much appreciated.
Thanks,
Mig
Frost
08-29-2010, 04:17 PM
hi welcome nice topic to post about ....mentally put up an umbrella and prepare for a sh*t storm to decend on your good self :D
Frost
08-29-2010, 04:22 PM
Hello to everyone,
I don't know if this topic has been posted yet and now I have been wondering where I can find some information about wrestling in China. For what I read, ground fighting techniques as in wrestling, judo or alike are quite inexistant in Kung fu except shuaijiao. As we know the importance of balance in street fighting I have always been puzzled about why I can not find similar techniques in TCM as in wrestling, ju-jitsu and other ground techniques. I can think that during those times the use of weapons: knife, staff, sword, etc. and lately guns will end any fight without the need of bare hands. Any enlightment will be much appreciated.
Thanks,
Mig
on a more constructive note wrestling as in takedowns, throws etc are found in alot of chinese arts, ground defence is also found in some, i.e. how to deal with a standing opponent and get up safely, but ground fighting is not prelvant for various reasons which will no doubt be covered by others :)
Precisely, I know about the take downs but especifically on the ground and thanks to be aware of some destructive comments. It seems odd to me to see that in Japan thought about Ju-jitsu but haven't found any similarity in TCM. I may think that in some generations ground fighting was not allowed as in other kicking was not allowed and fist fight was prevalent.
Thanks for the quick replies.
Mig
I don't know if this topic has been posted yet and now I have been wondering where I can find some information about wrestling in China. For what I read, ground fighting techniques as in wrestling, judo or alike are quite inexistant in Kung fu except shuaijiao. As we know the importance of balance in street fighting I have always been puzzled about why I can not find similar techniques in TCM as in wrestling, ju-jitsu and other ground techniques. I can think that during those times the use of weapons: knife, staff, sword, etc. and lately guns will end any fight without the need of bare hands. Any enlightment will be much appreciated.
Shang Dongsheng... he was a student of Zheng Manquing for awhile but his main staple was chinese wrestling... he's like the standard bearer of chinese wrestling...
his art was called Baoding wrestling which is one of the four major Shuaijiao styles... the other three being Beijing, Tianjin and mongolian... he's on youtube as a senior doing demos... he was one buff mofo when he was young... check him out...
he was undefeated from 1933 to 1948 and had beaten all the best judoka visiting beijing... interesting guy... but he never produced any students that had his talents which helped fuel the rumours that his style wasnt so great, it was just that he was a freak example and wouldve been great at any grappling style he did... who knows... but anyways, take a look... his old pics are pretty cool, this cat had some serious wings...
:eek::rolleyes:;):cool::D:)
there are five ranges of fighting - kicking, punching, trapping, grappling and ground fighting... CMA styles cover four of the five pretty thoroughly... losts of systems have only the first three, kicki punch trap... they avoid grappling and only cover ground fighting as a followup to a downed opponent from strikes or a throw... like chain punches to the face as you kneel beside the downed opponent... thats a very simplistic aspect of ground fighting and doesnt cover enough to call it ground fighting...
YouKnowWho
08-29-2010, 07:23 PM
Why SC does not encourage "ground fight"? It's "1 gain and 8 loses" trade off.
1 gain: You have ground skill.
8 loses: You won't train
1. counter for throw.
2. combo for throw.
3. remain balance after throw.
4. resistence for throw.
5. run down ability for throw.
6. perfect over head throw.
7. single leg balance throw.
8. remain mobility after throw.
After you have learned "pull guard" and "jump guard", you won't have desire to learn any more throws. Is that what you want for the future of the throwing art?
If you try to ask any BJJ instructor how to train "run down ability", you will understand what I'm talking about here.
HumbleWCGuy
08-29-2010, 08:36 PM
Hello to everyone,
I don't know if this topic has been posted yet and now I have been wondering where I can find some information about wrestling in China. For what I read, ground fighting techniques as in wrestling, judo or alike are quite inexistant in Kung fu except shuaijiao. As we know the importance of balance in street fighting I have always been puzzled about why I can not find similar techniques in TCM as in wrestling, ju-jitsu and other ground techniques. I can think that during those times the use of weapons: knife, staff, sword, etc. and lately guns will end any fight without the need of bare hands. Any enlightment will be much appreciated.
Thanks,
Mig
Mongolian Wrestling would be one art.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-0Sc5fAt6Y&feature=related
TCMA's Full contact expression is San Da. Throwing, reaps, and trips are quite an important part of TCMA.
Why SC does not encourage "ground fight"? It's "1 gain and 8 loses" trade off.
1 gain: You have ground skill.
8 loses: You won't train
1. counter for throw.
2. combo for throw.
3. remain balance after throw.
4. resistence for throw.
5. run down ability for throw.
6. perfect over head throw.
7. single leg balance throw.
8. remain mobility after throw.
After you have learned "pull guard" and "jump guard", you won't have desire to learn any more throws. Is that what you want for the future of the throwing art?
If you try to ask any BJJ instructor how to train "run down ability", you will understand what I'm talking about here.
that didnt happen to me... im not super awesome guy but i work hard and i feel pretty well rounded... im happy with it... i like working off my back but i'll go to hell and back to prevent it... i love clinch fighting and alot of that is takedown defence... i also love throwing, triping etc... a friend of mine is a top judoka and thru him ive learned to love all of that... its also a good part of muay thai... and ofcourse we do throws and locks in cma aswell... they all complement eachother if you let them... i believe its good to learn it in its pure form at first... and in the case of bjj that would mean ur right, pull guard etc... BUT, later on when you start to blend concepts certain things change... and one of those is exactly what you were talking about, you have to make sure that doesnt happen or you arent rounding out your just messing yourself up...
there is absolutely no reason why you cant do both... if you can only afford or have enough time for just one, fine, just dont get it twisted, there are arts out there that will be able to exploit some things you dont know... fighting knowledge is cross cultural and if you want to have a wide scope in your vision you need to learn about alot of ways to fight... some cma styles take this into consideration, but not all... i know its a touchy subject but its what ive experienced... i mean, im open to anything... show me im wrong and i'll change accordingly...
now that china is really embracing mma rule fights, we'll see... as far as ring fighting goes, that will answer alot of questions... the street is a whole new game tho...
SoCo KungFu
08-29-2010, 10:07 PM
Why SC does not encourage "ground fight"? It's "1 gain and 8 loses" trade off.
1 gain: You have ground skill.
8 loses: You won't train
1. counter for throw.
2. combo for throw.
3. remain balance after throw.
4. resistence for throw.
5. run down ability for throw.
6. perfect over head throw.
7. single leg balance throw.
8. remain mobility after throw.
After you have learned "pull guard" and "jump guard", you won't have desire to learn any more throws. Is that what you want for the future of the throwing art?
If you try to ask any BJJ instructor how to train "run down ability", you will understand what I'm talking about here.
Oh? Is that why so many of us BJJ types cross train judo and wrestling?
Kansuke
08-29-2010, 11:27 PM
There are some very good wrestlers in China. They train wrestling.
There are some very good wrestlers in China. They train wrestling.
well no kidding, theyd have to train wrestling if theyre good at it...:rolleyes::D
Frost
08-30-2010, 04:34 AM
Why SC does not encourage "ground fight"? It's "1 gain and 8 loses" trade off.
1 gain: You have ground skill.
8 loses: You won't train
1. counter for throw.
2. combo for throw.
3. remain balance after throw.
4. resistence for throw.
5. run down ability for throw.
6. perfect over head throw.
7. single leg balance throw.
8. remain mobility after throw.
After you have learned "pull guard" and "jump guard", you won't have desire to learn any more throws. Is that what you want for the future of the throwing art?
If you try to ask any BJJ instructor how to train "run down ability", you will understand what I'm talking about here.
actually most BJJ guys realise that pulling guard is only an option in certain circumstances (if the opponent is much better standing than you etc) and they still train throws and takedowns.
Using your logic we might as well argue its silly training punches and kicks as it stops us getting into the clinch range and once someone can punch well they wont bother throwing..........
Most BJJ guys understand that in an MMA match being on the bottom sucks, being in the guard is the least bad option but they still want top position and control
bawang
08-30-2010, 04:45 AM
chinese kung fu doesnt have ground fighting because its boring to watch. chinese kung fu always been a spectator sport for entertainment. if u look for realism sometimes grappling drags on for hours. if u look for entertainment its not fun to watch average guy cant tell whats going on. people start booing after 10 seconds
Dragonzbane76
08-30-2010, 05:57 AM
Why SC does not encourage "ground fight"? It's "1 gain and 8 loses" trade off.
1 gain: You have ground skill.
8 loses: You won't train
1. counter for throw.
2. combo for throw.
3. remain balance after throw.
4. resistence for throw.
5. run down ability for throw.
6. perfect over head throw.
7. single leg balance throw.
8. remain mobility after throw.
After you have learned "pull guard" and "jump guard", you won't have desire to learn any more throws. Is that what you want for the future of the throwing art?
If you try to ask any BJJ instructor how to train "run down ability", you will understand what I'm talking about here.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I do grappling and I love throws, your logic on this is a little backwards imo. It's not a trade off. My thoughts are learn all area's not just a select few. Just because someone doesn't feel they need or that it will hamper the "art" of learning doesn't mean that you shouldn't learn anyways.
So learning ground work is detremental to the art itself? Not really getting your point of view on this.
SanHeChuan
08-30-2010, 06:56 AM
The only reason to learn ground fighting is to fight ground fighters, China didn't have those so,... :p
Kansuke
08-30-2010, 07:33 AM
well no kidding, theyd have to train wrestling if theyre good at it...:rolleyes::D
..............................
Exactly.
wiz cool c
08-30-2010, 10:10 AM
hate to break it to you guys but shuai jiao doesnt have ground work, if anyone read my article in last months issue they would know modern fighters with shuai jiao background are crosstraining in bjj, any shuai jiao style that has some ground work come from some other source and was added in recently.
YouKnowWho
08-30-2010, 12:01 PM
shuai jiao doesnt have ground work,
Very true. The momenent that "ground game" is integrated into SC, the moment that we won't be able to see throw like this any more.
http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/7585/changleglifting.jpg
It's not easy to contine this throw with ground work. On the other hand, if you always consider the ground work, you will lost your mobility. It's a trade off.
Frost
08-30-2010, 12:12 PM
judo, freestyle and greco-roman wrestling all allow ground work and yet still some how manage to pull off high level throws
YouKnowWho
08-30-2010, 12:14 PM
chinese kung fu doesnt have ground fighting because its boring to watch.
SC became sport in the past several hundreds years. Chinese sport audience liked to watch "clean throw - remain standing after throw".
I'm sure if Chinese sport audience loved to watch "ground game", The "ground game" would be invented sometime in the Chinese history. I have to say it's just the culture thing.
I think American also has this kind of culture. When your opponent is down, you wait for him to get back up. If he gets back up, the fight continue. If he stays on the ground, the fight is over, and you walk away.
ShaolinDan
08-30-2010, 12:18 PM
Main goal in KF when on the ground is to get off the ground...Outside of the sport environment ground fighting is to be avoided...unless your on a soft surface, with no rocks, broken glass, dog sh*t, etc., fighting only one guy, who definitely has no knife, no friends coming to help, no steel-toe boots, who's not going to attack your groin or bite you or...
I'll probably get a lot of flak for saying that but... :)
Frost
08-30-2010, 12:20 PM
Main goal in KF when on the ground is to get off the ground...Outside of the sport environment ground fighting is to be avoided...unless your on a soft surface, with no rocks, broken glass, dog sh*t, etc., fighting only one guy, who definitely has no knife, no friends coming to help, no steel-toe boots, who's not going to attack your groin or bite you or...
I'll probably get a lot of flak for saying that but... :)
to be fair you will only get flak because its a half as$ed stupidly thought out point that has been discredited over and over........:)
lkfmdc
08-30-2010, 12:23 PM
judo, freestyle and greco-roman wrestling all allow ground work and yet still some how manage to pull off high level throws
Judo has "ippon" and also rules against just "dragging a person to the mat", this encourages the throw. The more current rules also discourage the mat work
Sambo has similar format, including "total victory" throw
Greco's above the waist format encourages a certain style, so does free style's format
The reality is, just do BJJ and you will not be a good thrower. The good throwers in BJJ cross train in Judo and wrestling.
THe Judoka with good mat work, will cross train BJJ.
This is the "problem" with doing only one type of competition
The average MMA fighter has weak standing striking. The average Muay Thai guy has no wrestling base.
If you want to "win your sport" you stick to your sport and it's format. If you want to be "well rounded FIGHTER" you cross train and do many formats
Very true. The momenent that "ground game" is integrated into SC, the moment that we won't be able to see throw like this any more.
http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/7585/changleglifting.jpg
It's not easy to contine this throw with ground work with leg lifting throw. On the other hand, if you always consider the ground work connection, you will lost your mobility. It's a trade off.
thats such a jump in logic man... im starting to think your just letting your bias speak for you... to practice ground means you wont throw anymore??? if i study math will my science suffer??? will i all the sudden not want to know about physics???
being well rounded means you can either choose where the fight takes place or atleast be able to handle yourself wherever it happens to go...
look, just because you know ground doesnt mean you have to take it there... its about giving yourself more options, not taking them away...
The only reason to learn ground fighting is to fight ground fighters, China didn't have those so,... :p
yeah and you see this regional style problem all over... you train against boxing styles for generations all it takes is some highschool wrestler with a brick for a head to put you down and manhandle the hell outta ya... and in order to counter a bit of wrestling experience with boxing you need ALOT of boxing experience... assuming your previous boxing experience didnt cover all ways of getting a guy down... and i havent seen that in CMA... im open to somebody showing me tho... by all means, bring it on, show me the money...
YouKnowWho
08-30-2010, 12:25 PM
look, just because you know ground doesnt mean you have to take it there... its about giving yourself more options, not taking them away...
Agree! That's why I train ground game too.
ShaolinDan
08-30-2010, 12:26 PM
In my school we learn strike and stand-up combos from the ground and we learn techniques to control someone on the ground from our feet, but we don't really learn much else ground-wise. (Except when one of my teachers who also studies BJJ runs a seminar with us.--Even then, ground-fighting for sport and for street are distinctly different[of course there's much overlap]).
Sport fighting is critical to becoming a competenet fighter!!!!
That said...sport fighting IS NOT fighting and the techniques are not necessarily the same.
SC became sport in the past several hundreds years. Chinese sport audience liked to watch "clean throw - remain standing after throw".
I'm sure if Chinese sport audience loved to watch "ground game", The "ground game" would be invented sometime in the Chinese history. I have to say it's just the culture thing.
I think American also has this kind of culture. When your opponent is down, you wait for him to get back up. If he gets back up, the fight continue. If he stays on the ground, the fight is over, and you walk away.
ok so how does doing a spectator sport make you a great FIGHTER that can handle any situation??? its the boxing trap... i'd say the same thing to anyone who said all they needed to learn to fight was judo, or wrestling, or bjj, or.....
wait wait wait... we are talking about FIGHTING here right??? not sports and not pleasing other eyes...
how can cma help you against a beast of a wrestler in a backalley just you two are alone... if youve never even seen a low double, you are F U C K E D !!!
Xiao3 Meng4
08-30-2010, 12:32 PM
Very true. The momenent that "ground game" is integrated into SC, the moment that we won't be able to see throw like this any more.
http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/7585/changleglifting.jpg
It's not easy to contine this throw with ground work. On the other hand, if you always consider the ground work, you will lost your mobility. It's a trade off.
No one's saying that ground work must originate from a sacrifice throw and if they are, I disagree. A standing throw followed by a rush/shoot onto the downed opponent is feasible and not infrequent.
YouKnowWho
08-30-2010, 12:36 PM
ok so how does doing a spectator sport make you a great FIGHTER that can handle any situation???
MMA, BJJ, Judo, Sanshou/Sanda. boxing, kickboxing, ... are all sport with different rules. Sport is a tool for training. Combat training is beyond sport.
BJJ guys will learn their ground skill first and then add their boxing skill later. The rule of BJJ will not stop them from adding boxing. That's what cross training is for.
sanjuro_ronin
08-30-2010, 12:39 PM
That said...sport fighting IS NOT fighting and the techniques are not necessarily the same.
Because no one has ever take out a person in the street with a right cross or left hook?
How about a RNC? or some GnP ?
MMA, BJJ, Judo, Sanshou/Sanda. boxing, kickboxing, ... are all sport with different rules. Sport is a tool for training. Combat training is beyond sport.
not all ground fighting is for sport... if you go to a bjj class, at first it will all be the same, but eventually you will learn the difference between ring techniques and street techniques...
if you cross train, it would be reasonable to assume that one who knows ground clinch and standup fighting will use clinch and standup to avoid the ground... if the opponent is lighting you up, you may wanna take it down if you guys are one on one... i could go on for hours about the diff between street and sport... i dont even mean bjj specifically, just any ground fighting... for example, soldiers learn it because its unrealistic to not have that knowledge in real combat... its about being well rounded... im talking about fighting... obviously in mma if you have no ground uyou wont last long... but thats not what im talking about... im talking about real fighting... and real fighting is about knowing as much as possible and covering as many angles as you can... to deny that is just crazy... i think ive been pretty clear about what i mean and i havent changed tactics between real and sport arguments to backpedal... the only time i have was to make a secondary point...
Because no one has ever take out a person in the street with a right cross or left hook?
How about a RNC? or some GnP ?
he said not necessarily the same. meaning sometimes yes, sometimes no...
lkfmdc
08-30-2010, 12:44 PM
not all ground fighting is for sport... if you go to a bjj class, at first it will all be the same, but eventually you will learn the difference between ring techniques and street techniques...
the "cutting edge" and forgive the pun in knife defense is based upon sport wrestling........... something to ponder
Kansuke
08-30-2010, 12:47 PM
Because no one has ever take out a person in the street with a right cross or left hook?
How about a RNC? or some GnP ?
Nope, never. Can't break the 'rules' after all...
sanjuro_ronin
08-30-2010, 12:47 PM
he said not necessarily the same. meaning sometimes yes, sometimes no...
Tomato..tomahto
There are many "street" moves that are never done in the ring because they don't work, do you k now of any ring techniques not done on the street for the same reason?
Can't think of any off the top of my head.
WTF does "not necessarily the same" mean anyways??
:p
the "cutting edge" and forgive the pun in knife defense is based upon sport wrestling........... something to ponder
i'd love to hear your thoughts...
anyways.. my original point before the s h i t storm was that you need to be well rounded... and rounding out may take away from one aspect because of time constraints for some people or a simple lack of ability to do or retain the knowledge but ultimately the more you are prepared for the better off you'll be... anyone disagree???
ShaolinDan
08-30-2010, 12:49 PM
No Sanjero, because sometimes people are taken out with a knife, or a kick to the groin, or a hand full of broken fingers...
I already gave you your sport fighting tribute...Sport fighting is very very important.
It still isn't fighting.
Ok? :)
Kansuke
08-30-2010, 12:49 PM
I think American also has this kind of culture. When your opponent is down, you wait for him to get back up. If he gets back up, the fight continue. If he stays on the ground, the fight is over, and you walk away.
LOL!!!!!!!
Maybe you do, but...
Tomato..tomahto
There are many "street" moves that are never done in the ring because they don't work, do you k now of any ring techniques not done on the street for the same reason?
Can't think of any off the top of my head.
WTF does "not necessarily the same" mean anyways??
:p
the example i was thinking was more on the lines of, if you are fighting three guys, you arent gonna pull guard if you do hit the ground, you will scramble is if your life depended on it... because it might... in competition you can afford to lay back, take a breath and start from there...
i use that anologfy because im trying to stick to youknowhos original criticisms... keep it simple and not too confusing... this board is moving fast...
Kansuke
08-30-2010, 12:51 PM
to be fair you will only get flak because its a half as$ed stupidly thought out point that has been discredited over and over........:)
Well said.
sanjuro_ronin
08-30-2010, 12:53 PM
No Sanjero, because sometimes people are taken out with a knife, or a kick to the groin, or a hand full of broken fingers...
I already gave you your sport fighting tribute...Sport fighting is very very important.
It still isn't fighting.
Ok? :)
Fighting:
fight
/faɪt/ Show Spelled [fahyt] Show IPA noun, verb, fought, fight·ing.
–noun
1.
a battle or combat.
2.
any contest or struggle: a fight for recovery from an illness.
3.
an angry argument or disagreement: Whenever we discuss politics, we end up in a fight.
4.
Boxing . a bout or contest.
5.
a game or diversion in which the participants hit or pelt each other with something harmless: a pillow fight; a water fight.
6.
ability, will, or inclination to fight: There was no fight left in him.
–verb (used without object)
7.
to engage in battle or in single combat; attempt to defend oneself against or to subdue, defeat, or destroy an adversary.
8.
to contend in any manner; strive vigorously for or against something: He fought bravely against despair.
–verb (used with object)
9.
to contend with in battle or combat; war against: England fought Germany.
10.
to contend with or against in any manner: to fight despair; to fight the passage of a bill.
11.
to carry on (a battle, duel, etc.).
12.
to maintain (a cause, quarrel, etc.) by fighting or contending.
13.
to make (one's way) by fighting or striving.
14.
to cause or set (a boxer, animal, etc.) to fight.
15.
to manage or maneuver (troops, ships, guns, planes, etc.) in battle.
LOL!!!!!!!
Maybe you do, but...
i was thinking the same thing... where i come from the honourable types usually got hurt in the street... its not about being fair.... its about winning and walkijng away...
even if that means you pick up a rock and go choy li fut on their a s s e s!!! :D
lkfmdc
08-30-2010, 12:53 PM
Sport fighting is very very important.
It still isn't fighting.
pretty much anything where you don't go home in a body bag is a "game" or "sport"
the reality is, well, you can't re-create reality... nothing is going to simulate a real life and death struggle with a person trying to kill you... you can only approach approximations
however, what so many dismiss as "sports" do in fact do a dandy job of approaching those realities, especially once you understand the role of stress and adrenaline response
a game or diversion in which the participants hit or pelt each other with something harmless: a pillow fight; a water fight.
thats awesome...
dictionaries arent the end all of tyerminology though... for example... ima BBoy, some call it breakdancing, BBoys dont call it that only outsiders... so should an outsider define a term? or should terms be defined by those who are actually involved??? breakdancer is a term that was prepackaged and served to the public in an article a long time ago and it stuck, but only outside the bboy community...
so who defines fight???
although i do agree with you, fight can be sport... but all along ive been talking about real street fighting, you know, actyual combat...
sanjuro_ronin
08-30-2010, 12:57 PM
the example i was thinking was more on the lines of, if you are fighting three guys, you arent gonna pull guard if you do hit the ground, you will scramble is if your life depended on it... because it might... in competition you can afford to lay back, take a breath and start from there...
i use that anologfy because im trying to stick to youknowhos original criticisms... keep it simple and not too confusing... this board is moving fast...
Just to be an ass ( and to chanell T over here from the WC forum, LOL ), people often use this example and fail to see how incorrect it is.
Granted being on the floor VS multiples is NOT the place you wanna be, simply because it is hard to run away..
that said, understand that you have to options:
Being on Top
Being on the bottom ( perferably with guard).
Now, being on top allows you to GnP and move to some degree, but also allows buddles 2 and 3 to tee off on your head, face back and so forth and you still have to keep the guy on the bottom from getting out you too.
Being on the floor with someone in your guard allows you to control HIM and shield yourself from buddies 2 and 3.
Just something to think of and train next time you can.
ShaolinDan
08-30-2010, 01:00 PM
by that definition sanjero I fight every day I work (I'm a short order cook).
Fighting for your life (or someone else's) just isn't the same...if you can't recognize that... well, I hope you never have to.
On another note...as far as what people are saying about American honor, and letting someone get up... for legal reasons if you knock someone down it's better to tell them not to get up then to keep pounding on them. 'course if they try to get up, then you have no choice...
Doesn't seem like anyone really disagrees here. Just want to argue I guess.
bawang
08-30-2010, 01:02 PM
Because no one has ever take out a person in the street with a right cross or left hook?
How about a RNC? or some GnP ?
ive never seen a street fight that used groundfighting. in my high school there were teen gangs like g lock and murda squad that gang up on people 20 vs 1 at night. i think maybe in small peaceful towns kids get drunk and watch too many ufc then they play fight one on one.
whether ur sport allows or dont allow ground fighting doesnt make it more or less realistic. its all for fun and money.
Just to be an ass ( and to chanell T over here from the WC forum, LOL ), people often use this example and fail to see how incorrect it is.
Granted being on the floor VS multiples is NOT the place you wanna be, simply because it is hard to run away..
that said, understand that you have to options:
Being on Top
Being on the bottom ( perferably with guard).
Now, being on top allows you to GnP and move to some degree, but also allows buddles 2 and 3 to tee off on your head, face back and so forth and you still have to keep the guy on the bottom from getting out you too.
Being on the floor with someone in your guard allows you to control HIM and shield yourself from buddies 2 and 3.
Just something to think of and train next time you can.
actually i meant to scramble to get up and get away or atleast create some space, not to be on top... i'd rather be on the bottom than the top against two guys tho(insert g a y joke here)... anyways, like i said, im trying to keep it simple... but i do understand that...
ive never seen a street fight that used groundfighting. in my high school there were teen gangs like g lock and murda squad that gang up on people 20 vs 1 at night. i think maybe in small peaceful towns kids get drunk and watch too many ufc then they play fight one on one.
whether ur sport allows or dont allow ground fighting doesnt make it more or less realistic. its all for fun and money.
actually ifg 20 murda squads were kicking my ass i'd pull guard right away and triangle all of em with my lanky legs:D
sanjuro_ronin
08-30-2010, 01:05 PM
Fighting for your life (or someone else's) just isn't the same...if you can't recognize that... well, I hope you never have to.
Dude, some of us have had to, more often then we care to remember.
And yes, I am busting your balls:D
But the point is that fighting is fighting, period.
And pretty much what you do in the ring is what will serve you on the street and I have yet to met ONE "ring fighter" that isn't aware of the difference, though have met some "streefighters" that don't have ANY clue.
The thing is, what you said can lead people into that ever dangerous pit hole of "different techniques for the ring than the street" when the reality is just not that.
The bread and butter of the ring is what works on the street, technique wise/
Think about it, does in pro fighter pop into your mind that you think will be easy to handle on the street?
sanjuro_ronin
08-30-2010, 01:08 PM
ive never seen a street fight that used groundfighting. in my high school there were teen gangs like g lock and murda squad that gang up on people 20 vs 1 at night. i think maybe in small peaceful towns kids get drunk and watch too many ufc then they play fight one on one.
whether ur sport allows or dont allow ground fighting doesnt make it more or less realistic. its all for fun and money.
LMAO, dude you go to school in Guelph !!
The women there can kill a bull by the sheer power of their gas !!
taai gihk yahn
08-30-2010, 01:08 PM
pretty much anything where you don't go home in a body bag is a "game" or "sport"
the reality is, well, you can't re-create reality... nothing is going to simulate a real life and death struggle with a person trying to kill you... you can only approach approximations
however, what so many dismiss as "sports" do in fact do a dandy job of approaching those realities, especially once you understand the role of stress and adrenaline response
QFT; in fact, the thing about "sports" is that, even though there are rules, there is the element of the unknown - even with a structured venue, rules, etc., there is the aspect of the opponent being "not your friend" (well, in most cases); and while there are certainly aspects of this that are very different from a street encounter, it's still about as close as you can get without actually going and fighting regularly on the streets (which, of course, some people do, and demonstrate time and again how an "untrained" fighter can have a significant advantage over a "trained" fighter because of their context-specific experience);
the analogy would be war-games and actual combat: you can approximate as much as possible but the real thing is still different; so you train the skill set but also train the ability to deal with the unknown; but until you actually do it, you don't "know it"
Dude, some of us have had to, more often then we care to remember.
And yes, I am busting your balls:D
But the point is that fighting is fighting, period.
And pretty much what you do in the ring is what will serve you on the street and I have yet to met ONE "ring fighter" that isn't aware of the difference, though have met some "streefighters" that don't have ANY clue.
The thing is, what you said can lead people into that ever dangerous pit hole of "different techniques for the ring than the street" when the reality is just not that.
The bread and butter of the ring is what works on the street, technique wise/
Think about it, does in pro fighter pop into your mind that you think will be easy to handle on the street?
agreed... but the risk factor changes and that makes certain techniques more appealing than others... more practical than others... also in a real fight you have weapons and alot of the time you do have the option of atleast trying to just get away and avoid the whole thing...
sanjuro_ronin
08-30-2010, 01:15 PM
the analogy would be war-games and actual combat: you can approximate as much as possible but the real thing is still different; so you train the skill set but also train the ability to deal with the unknown; but until you actually do it, you don't "know it"
You can put as many rounds into a target, but until you do it for real, it is only for practice.
Many times I wish we were able to "spar" as snipers...
See shooting a person or someone shooting back at you or shooting a "shape", that is one thing.
Putting your cross hairs on someone, seeing their eyes, the life in them...
You never forget that and there is NOTHING that prepares you for it, nothing.
Wish that there was.
Sure on the street we are aware of the difference, but when that feeling clicks in, the adrenaline kicks in, where we see.hear/smell/taste evertyhing al at once, that is what you get when you fight someone trying to take your head off.
Again, these is still a difference, some would say a huge one, but you are far more prepared than is you had never felt it before.
bawang
08-30-2010, 01:15 PM
LMAO, dude you go to school in Guelph !!
The women there can kill a bull by the sheer power of their gas !!
im from east coast halifax.
speaking of guelph ,theres hundreds of barfights a year but no one ever get killed. i think small pusy towns like this is where the false ideas of "the streets" come from. in halifax kids stab taxi drivers for fun.
also, look at the difference between rio heroes and ufc... both are mma... but they are not the same... one is alot more realistic than the other...
sanjuro_ronin
08-30-2010, 01:18 PM
agreed... but the risk factor changes and that makes certain techniques more appealing than others... more practical than others... also in a real fight you have weapons and alot of the time you do have the option of atleast trying to just get away and avoid the whole thing...
And all those things are applicable to ALL people involved, not just the "ring guy".
Dude, I carry either an Emerson or a spyderco (depends on the fashion statement I am making) and I have an ASP in my car, not to mention I can kill you with my pinky toe, twice and the vast majority of MA I know, are the same way.
sanjuro_ronin
08-30-2010, 01:19 PM
im from east coast halifax.
speaking of guelph ,theres hundreds of barfights a year but no one ever get killed. i think small pusy towns like this is where the false ideas of "the streets" come from. in halifax kids stab taxi drivers for fun.
Halifax kids make Chuck Norris cry.
ShaolinDan
08-30-2010, 01:19 PM
Like I said, don't think anyone disagrees... I've already acknowledged several times on this thread and others that sport-fighting is important...why can't I just talk about kung fu? :) Oy vey, this place is a challenge for me.
there are a lot of fighting techniques that aren't legal in sport, but work... pretty much all of the eagle claw kung fu I've learned is not allowed in sports, but seems like law enforcement officers (yes, I know this first hand) have found it pretty effective. it also is easily adapted to the ground.
Can I say that? Is that an okay thing to say? :) Hahaha.
And all those things are applicable to ALL people involved, not just the "ring guy".
Dude, I carry either an Emerson or a spyderco (depends on the fashion statement I am making) and I have an ASP in my car, not to mention I can kill you with my pinky toe, twice and the vast majority of MA I know, are the same way.
are you batman?
sanjuro_ronin
08-30-2010, 01:20 PM
are you batman?
Only on halloween, or Anniversary night with the wife.
:D
bawang
08-30-2010, 01:21 PM
it was on the newspaper many times. they caught 2. because of the young offenders act ogs use it as a loophole and let kids do their dirty work.
im just saying if ur in a bad neighbor hood and u get in trouble, if u get into guard and spread ur legs yelling ``COME ONE MAN COME ON`` ur not gonna live long
any kind of empty hand fighting is just ritualized violence, for entertainment, money, or young people to prove man hood . theres nothing wrong with that. its wrong when u think it makes u a warrior or a fighter
my cousin in china had a security who was a provincial sanda champion. a 100 pound random thug stabbed him to death
YouKnowWho
08-30-2010, 01:25 PM
i use that anologfy because im trying to stick to youknowhos original criticisms...
I believe the "ground game" will be the true killer for all stand up throwing arts. Whether I'm right or wrong, only the history will tell.
All right, I guess I've got more information than I needed, LOL. For what I see I was not clear with my question. In every street fight I've seen or experienced ground fighting can happen and if you encountered someone with some experience in throws, joint locking techniques, choking techniques, submission, etc, on the ground the answer of avoiding the ground fighting is irrelevant.
Now, I can not find an explanation why there is no such ground fighting style as Jujitsu or wrestling in China even though it seems that some Jujitsu styles claim their origins from China and others possibly from Horn Wrestling. As you see I am curious to find some historical sources and if any style in today's TCM will have a repertoire of such techniques.
Thanks all,
Mig
ShaolinDan
08-30-2010, 01:51 PM
Sorry Mig.
My experience is that the KF answer to ground fighting is low wide stances, good footwork and striking/chin na adapted to the ground...I don't know any other explanation for the lack of ground-fighting , but I would also be curious to hear one.
bawang
08-30-2010, 01:55 PM
I can not find an explanation why there is no such ground fighting style as Jujitsu or wrestling in China
1. ground fighting is boring as hell to watch. kung fu was a spectator sport.
2. fighting on the ground is considered unmanly in kung fu.
YouKnowWho
08-30-2010, 01:55 PM
I can not find an explanation why there is no such ground fighting style as Jujitsu or wrestling in China...
Where was MMA 30 years ago?
If a "complete" style exists on earth, the evolution and cross training won't be needed.
There was a CMA guy who beated up all his opponent's at a harbor until more of his opponent's friends started to throw rocks at him, and sent him to hospital. He late on told his friends, "My CMA teacher didn't teach me how to dodge throwing rocks."
A CMA guy was cut badly in a knife fight. He told his friend, "My CMA teacher didn't teach me how to use open hand to fight against knife."
Dragonzbane76
08-30-2010, 02:05 PM
I think American also has this kind of culture. When your opponent is down, you wait for him to get back up. If he gets back up, the fight continue. If he stays on the ground, the fight is over, and you walk away.
I think you might have that a little wrong. On the east coast of the U.S. the tradition has always been wrestling. Very high tradition in some states. Therefor many of the fights i've seen growing up went to the ground at some point. But in honesty i've seen both, stand up and then ground. But I wouldn't say that U.S. has the exact mentality you present.
Xiao3 Meng4
08-30-2010, 02:15 PM
Maybe it has something to do with cultural norms.
For instance, in Europe, back in the days when dueling was allowed and wearing a sword was not only permitted but expected, schools taught fencing and swordsmanship. Unarmed combat, while trained, was frowned upon as "ungentlemanly," and so was not a major part of the curriculum. Then, when dueling was outlawed, unarmed combat became more acceptable as a way to settle grievances - still, it was ungentlemanly to settle scores with kicks - and so boxing became a popular training method, as well as a sport. Kicking almost dissappeared from the Western curriculums until its return with Savate - and I think that Savate was very much influenced by France's forays into the East.
I know that in Japan, lying down on the ground used to be a way to AVOID fighting. If someone got all up in your face, lying down on the ground was a way to submit without fighting (this is more common among older folks, not sure how it is with young folks these days being so anti-cultural and with Sport MAs being so popular.)
Maybe in China, some sort of cultural value system similar to the ones above was placed on combat etiquette.
EDIT: Yes, I know Boxing and Wrestling and Pankration are really old. I'm saying that there came a time when they fell out of favour, and weapons training became the norm. Then when those fell out of favour, unarmed combat began re-emerging both as method and as sport.
bawang
08-30-2010, 02:32 PM
how come mma doesnt allow groin kicks like pankration. how come mma doesnt fight nekid and rub oil on themself like pankration. in real street fight everyone fights naked and rub oil on themselvs.
Dragonzbane76
08-30-2010, 02:35 PM
how come mma doesnt allow groin kicks like pankration. how come mma doesnt fight nekid and rub oil on themself like pankration. in real street fight everyone fights naked and rub oil on themselvs.
we leave that kind of fighting for the real men. :p
YouKnowWho
08-30-2010, 02:35 PM
But I wouldn't say that U.S. has the exact mentality you present.
I got my impression from this movie. "Stay down! Stay down! ..."
http://www.legalmoviesdownloads.com/still-frames-movie-pictures/cool-hand-luke/cool-hand-luke-1-paul-newman.jpg
Dragonzbane76
08-30-2010, 02:42 PM
haha and i got mine from this...
http://www.mamapop.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/6a00d8341c5d9653ef0128768af25a970c.jpg
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f124/arodmx60/visionquest.jpg
Dragonzbane76
08-30-2010, 02:42 PM
:Di beat your gayness by a lot on that one....:):D:D
YouKnowWho
08-30-2010, 02:44 PM
how come mma doesnt allow groin kicks like pankration. how come mma doesnt fight nekid and rub oil on themself like pankration. in real street fight everyone fights naked and rub oil on themselvs.
Good point! Also how come MMA doesn't allow this?
http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/6302/spikesringk.jpg
Kansuke
08-30-2010, 02:57 PM
i was thinking the same thing... where i come from the honourable types usually got hurt in the street... its not about being fair.... its about winning and walkijng away...
even if that means you pick up a rock and go choy li fut on their a s s e s!!! :D
Nothing "honorable" about being stupid.
David Jamieson
08-30-2010, 03:02 PM
Only on halloween, or Anniversary night with the wife.
:D
Dude, I am Batman....
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v202/kunglek/batdave.jpg
Kansuke
08-30-2010, 03:10 PM
I know that in Japan, lying down on the ground used to be a way to AVOID fighting. If someone got all up in your face, lying down on the ground was a way to submit without fighting (this is more common among older folks, not sure how it is with young folks these days being so anti-cultural and with Sport MAs being so popular.)
.
Say wha....?
Nothing "honorable" about being stupid.
yeah... what he said...
I believe the "ground game" will be the true killer for all stand up throwing arts. Whether I'm right or wrong, only the history will tell.
ok... we'll see... i think we'll see more well rounded styles come out... i also believe that the chinese boxers will start adding these to their repetoire and once its well established in cma they will start doing it "their way"... like the japanese did... and look how well that worked out for them... and its all based on chinese theory and application anyways... i think cma just got stuck, stylistically, in a standup paradox... they stood wiyth eachother and didnt do much groundwork offensively so nobody bothered to learn it defensively... does that make sense??? why dont we see much cma in mma??? im glad thats changing... it'll be awesome to see what kind of chinese hybrids come out of all this, now that they have their own mma organizations and whatnot...
remember what happened to all these japanese standup fighters in brazil 50-70 years ago??? the jujutsu cats did well, the judo cats did well, the karate guys got beat up on the ground almost every time... check out the vids on youtube... there are a few... avoid anything gracie, they are so biased its disgusting how skewed the picture they paint is... but that doesnt mean they dont have a point... but there are others... lutta livre was huge too... the whole bjj vs lutta livre was awesome for grappling... alot was learned and accomplished then...
i still dont understand why you cant do both... you can keep them seperate or meld them together... like i said before, i feel one should learn the art in its pure form at first but once you are good at it and understand all the theory really well, i dont see any reason why you cant bring it all together...
i feel that the more weapons in ur arsenal the better...
like if i have a handgun and want a granade you cant say, dont play with grenades or your handgun skills will suffer... sounds kinda silly doncha think???
Xiao3 Meng4
08-30-2010, 04:01 PM
Say wha....?
I'm looking for the reference... I'm remembering some Desmond Morris special or something. When I find it I'll post it.
YouKnowWho
08-30-2010, 04:11 PM
i still dont understand why you cant do both???
Let me try to use an example here. If you apply a "fireman's carry" on me, You will have 2 choices. You can:
1. Throw me with you feet together and legs straight, so you can dump me from a maximum height with maximum force.
2. Drop one of your knees on the ground while bending the other leg, so your body will be closer to the ground. This will be easier for you to continue your ground game.
Since in the sport environment, the soft mat won't be able to hurt your opponent enough to end a fight, you will lose confidence in "perfect throw (maximum height and maximum force)", and stop your training by using the 1st method. The will change the future of the stand up throwing art.
Dragonzbane76
08-30-2010, 04:17 PM
Since in the sport environment, the soft mat won't be able to hurt your opponent enough to end a fight, you will lose confidence in "perfect throw (maximum height and maximum force)", and stop your training by using the 1st method. The will change the future of the stand up throwing art.
they have been saying this kinda thing forever about a lot of different "sport" fighting. when MMA came out they stated that it will be the end of boxing because there will be no use, now mma people cross train into boxing and kickboxing all the time to round there game. No worries people will always have use for a good throw and it will be integrated along with everything else. :p
Let me try to use an example here. If you apply a "fireman's carry" on me, You will have 2 choices. You can:
1. Throw me with you feet together and legs straight, so you can dump me from a maximum height with maximum force.
2. Drop one of your knees on the ground while bending the other leg, so your body will be closer to the ground. This will be easier for you to continue your ground game.
Since in the sport environment, the soft mat won't be able to hurt your opponent enough to end a fight, you will lose confidence in "perfect throw (maximum height and maximum force)", and stop your training by using the 1st method. The will change the future of the stand up throwing art.
sure... but who says i have to employ the firemans carry??? there are other options if i dont wanna go down with ya... doesnt mean the firemans carry is useless... just means its not always the best choice... but that goes for almost any technique... esspecially ones that you have to commit to... but that example doesnt fly for me... why does one technique have to affect another technique when they dont have to be used together??? im not agreeing with your argument here... if i dont wanna go down i can just throw you another way... depends what you give me and what i want to do next... and besides, i could always dump you on your head and back off when your brains spill out onto the concrete... no???
more applicable knowledge = better... always... offensively and esspecially defensively... if two guys do choylifut and are both at the same level but one also knows how to wrestle and submitt and throw etc... which one has a better chance of winning a real fight??? to me, the answer is obvious... most of the time the guy with more fighting abilities will win... like the couture toney fight... toney was a great boxer... look how well that worked out for him on saturday against a guy that isnt that good of a striker...
YouKnowWho
08-30-2010, 04:40 PM
more applicable knowledge = better.
Agree with you 100% there. May be it's just stupid for me to worry about the future. I may not live long enough to see that happen anyway.
Just saw this clip. Someone may share similiar concern here (in a different way at least). Any comment?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhOmAyjTimc
it illustrates the need to train in an art that will teach techniques that fall outside of the rules in the sporting versions... if all you train is the techniques allowed in regulated competition then you cant claim to be teaching a complete system that is street effective... or as street effective as it could be, i should say... since the throws within the rules are still very effective... i dont train any pure sporting arts... although we do have classes dedicated to either or...
edit:
actually thats not true... in highschool we didnt train street wrestling... although we did play WWF and throw chairs at eachother and did flying randy savage elbow drops off the bleachers:D
Kansuke
08-30-2010, 07:28 PM
Let me try to use an example here. If you apply a "fireman's carry" on me, You will have 2 choices. You can:
1. Throw me with you feet together and legs straight, so you can dump me from a maximum height with maximum force.
2. Drop one of your knees on the ground while bending the other leg, so your body will be closer to the ground. This will be easier for you to continue your ground game.
Since in the sport environment, the soft mat won't be able to hurt your opponent enough to end a fight, you will lose confidence in "perfect throw (maximum height and maximum force)", and stop your training by using the 1st method. The will change the future of the stand up throwing art.
Street or mat, the first is simply much less likely to be pulled off. If you want to hurt someone, a firemans is not going to be your first choice.
Frost
08-31-2010, 04:51 AM
Judo has "ippon" and also rules against just "dragging a person to the mat", this encourages the throw. The more current rules also discourage the mat work
Sambo has similar format, including "total victory" throw
Greco's above the waist format encourages a certain style, so does free style's format
The reality is, just do BJJ and you will not be a good thrower. The good throwers in BJJ cross train in Judo and wrestling.
THe Judoka with good mat work, will cross train BJJ.
This is the "problem" with doing only one type of competition
The average MMA fighter has weak standing striking. The average Muay Thai guy has no wrestling base.
If you want to "win your sport" you stick to your sport and it's format. If you want to be "well rounded FIGHTER" you cross train and do many formats
true and none of that changes the fact certain styles have managed to incorperate groundwork without losing the importance of the throw, so it can be done and has been done
Frost
08-31-2010, 04:58 AM
All right, I guess I've got more information than I needed, LOL. For what I see I was not clear with my question. In every street fight I've seen or experienced ground fighting can happen and if you encountered someone with some experience in throws, joint locking techniques, choking techniques, submission, etc, on the ground the answer of avoiding the ground fighting is irrelevant.
Now, I can not find an explanation why there is no such ground fighting style as Jujitsu or wrestling in China even though it seems that some Jujitsu styles claim their origins from China and others possibly from Horn Wrestling. As you see I am curious to find some historical sources and if any style in today's TCM will have a repertoire of such techniques.
Thanks all,
Mig
Alot of the japanese grappling game from fighting with heavy armour, i dont know if the chinese had the same armour and issues, as far as anyone has ever posted and i have seen no chinese style has ground fighting, they have ground defense against a standing opponent but not ground fighting in terms of positional control, locks chokes etc
It might very well be because they never faced a ground fighter due to cultural bias against rolling around on the ground etc, unfortunatly this is no longer the case, you are more likely to face a ground fighter than a stand up fighter these days
sanjuro_ronin
08-31-2010, 06:11 AM
In regards to grappling in Japan, itstarted with armour grappling, Kumi Uchi, in which the goal was to imobilize and finish with a short dagger or break a limb or neck.
After the 1800's the civilian version "took over" and it became more oriented towards the clothes of the time and not armour, it was typically used for restraining more than anythign else.
Some Ryu developed immobilizations to a high degree, some using ropes/belts.
The kito ryu focused on throws and some, liek the Fusen ryu focused on ground grappling, while others like the Tenjin Shinyo ryu focused on chokes, immobilizations and strikes.
Judo took the best of the older ryu and blended them in, well Judo.
The pre-war version, know as Kosen Ryu nowadays was more ground work and submission oriented.
The whole "wrestling" thing as we find in the near east and west was NOT that popular, unless you count sumo.
Sumai, the MA of the SUmo, was the closest we have the western wrestling in Japan and it was a very complete system of stand up grappling and throwing, but no ground work per say.
lkfmdc
08-31-2010, 07:14 AM
true and none of that changes the fact certain styles have managed to incorperate groundwork without losing the importance of the throw, so it can be done and has been done
so which art has good throws AND ground work on the level of BJJ?
or which ground focused art has throws as good as Judo and Sambo?
Emphasis on one always means a trade off with the other....
its interesting... you would think that kids would mess around and fall on eachother and "wrestle" at some point in china... its seems like such a natural thing... it seems so weird that a nation so big with such a rich combative history would never have seen kids messing around and made a system out of it... or lets say it in a way chinese understand, why didnt they see animals rolling, like lizards locked in a clutch flopping around and got the idea to wrestle... it seems really weird to me that it never happened... so i think it did... im willing to bet, that like many things, it was just lost because something more popular pushed it out of view... i bet with some research somebody would find something...
it stands to reason that wrestling would have been the "first" style with some cavemen that just run at eachother, smash into eachother, fell over and grappled on the ground... i dunno... something just isnt adding up here tho... with a fighting culture that is absolutely OBDSESSED with finding new fight scenarios to tackle(no pun intended) you would think there would be something more than what we see today in modern chinese styles... that isnt a small missing link, its a huge oversight... i guess its time for me to start reading up...
Xiao3 Meng4
08-31-2010, 08:39 AM
that isnt a small missing link, its a huge oversight... i guess its time for me to start reading up...
Something else to consider is multiple opponents. By which I mean Russian Gang Fight (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=58205) numbers or more (much more.)
Imagine going to the ground in a melee like that. You'd get trampled - no martial skill involved.
If Battles between rival factions were of that nature, what good did groundwork do? In a melee situation it was much better to know how to chuck your opponent to the ground and stay standing; let the feet and hooves and chariot wheels of your allies AND enemies do all the work. Not to mention the occasional spear or knife thrust here and there. If it didn't kill the poor sap, it might injure him severely. If he wasn't injured, he'd have to get up; in the meantime, your bad@ss standup and throwing skills will hopefully have sent several others to their muddy fate.
So yeah, there may have been good reasons (attached to or beyond cultural norms) as to why groundwork wasn't emphasized.
yeah but not even as a competition between classmates that evolved into something more serious??? its kinda weird that you dont see it at all...
Lucas
08-31-2010, 09:45 AM
i think there are many factors. the mongolian influence in china, heavy on wrestling, did a lot to help shape shuai jiao. also if you train in MA you learn weapons, a downed opponent is easy prey for a sword or spear. then take into account that if someone were to try and wrestle a trained kungfu guy, unless you were good (which would be a rare skill set since its uncommon in most areas) you would get worked over by standard kungfu guy. which would make the standard 'appear' supperior to someone trying to tackle you down out of sheer aggression and aggrivation.
some random person wont have mad skill, and if they have some skill its likely going to be obtained from a local source, which would likely offer something of the regional standard. gang fights are far more common than 1 on 1 duels. also, knives are very popular.
i think there are many factors. the mongolian influence in china, heavy on wrestling, did a lot to help shape shuai jiao. also if you train in MA you learn weapons, a downed opponent is easy prey for a sword or spear. then take into account that if someone were to try and wrestle a trained kungfu guy, unless you were good (which would be a rare skill set since its uncommon in most areas) you would get worked over by standard kungfu guy. which would make the standard 'appear' supperior to someone trying to tackle you down out of sheer aggression and aggrivation.
some random person wont have mad skill, and if they have some skill its likely going to be obtained from a local source, which would likely offer something of the regional standard. gang fights are far more common than 1 on 1 duels. also, knives are very popular.
soldiers train ground fighting... kinda blows a hole in the whole "dont forget cma trains weapons too" theory dont ya think???
also i think a college wrestler with a thick skull and a little bit of street experience woulndt have any problem taking down any standup fighter with no grappling experience... you'd have to ko or lock em up before he got into full swing if you'd want to stop it... and in a life or death situation groin shots and eye strikes might not be enough... combine cma with real grappling and ground fighting knowledge and i think you'll have a killing machine...
Dragonzbane76
08-31-2010, 10:02 AM
combine cma with real grappling and ground fighting knowledge and i think you'll have a killing machine...
:) said it all along.
so which art has good throws AND ground work on the level of BJJ?
or which ground focused art has throws as good as Judo and Sambo?
Emphasis on one always means a trade off with the other....
i guess sambo would be the closest i can think of... probably because its pretty new and is heavily influenced by military... sambo strikes, throws, and has ground fighting...
Lucas
08-31-2010, 10:29 AM
soldiers train ground fighting... kinda blows a hole in the whole "dont forget cma trains weapons too" theory dont ya think???
also i think a college wrestler with a thick skull and a little bit of street experience woulndt have any problem taking down any standup fighter with no grappling experience... you'd have to ko or lock em up before he got into full swing if you'd want to stop it... and in a life or death situation groin shots and eye strikes might not be enough... combine cma with real grappling and ground fighting knowledge and i think you'll have a killing machine...
well im speaking from a historical progression angle as to why over all these hundreds of years high end ground submission grappling didnt seem to appear in chinese martial arts. not modern times......... today there is ground fighting throughout the entire world. the ground element, speaking from a modern perspectice, is a given. doesnt even need to be mentioned in regard to effectiveness and adaptabitlity to create a well rounded fighter. nor the pros and cons of striking vs grappling, that subject is worse off than a dead horse.
well im speaking from a historical progression angle as to why over all these hundreds of years high end ground submission grappling didnt seem to appear in chinese martial arts. not modern times......... today there is ground fighting throughout the entire world.
are there any new ground fighting styles that are chinese?
Lucas
08-31-2010, 10:33 AM
it could easily be argued if sambo is of the level on the ground as bjj....
Lucas
08-31-2010, 10:35 AM
are there any new ground fighting styles that are chinese?
no but many, many, chinese stylists are adding ground fighting to their training regime.
anyway i dont get what that question means?? who mentioned any chinese ground fighting/submission styles??!?! i thought we all knew there arent any distinctly chinese
Lucas
08-31-2010, 10:37 AM
soldiers train ground fighting... kinda blows a hole in the whole "dont forget cma trains weapons too" theory dont ya think???
sry i need to learn the quote function better. i posted more in response to this:
its interesting... you would think that kids would mess around and fall on eachother and "wrestle" at some point in china... its seems like such a natural thing....
i wasnt under the understanding you were talking modern times but just over all in historical china...:o
SnowDog
08-31-2010, 11:07 AM
It's not too unusual to think that China never developed a "Ground Fighting" system.
Pre-Gunpower history the Greeks and the Japanese (since the Romans got their ground fighting from the Greeks) are really the only two cultures to develop a ground game. Other grappling systems around the world, from Mongolian, Middle Eastern, Celtic, Norse, Mayan, African, Chinese, etc..... were standing grapling arts that had throws, occasional chokes/ locks and ground and pound type tech. No high level Submission grapling even existed in the rest of the world.
Most ground fighting systems that we know of today are modern systems that actaully borrowed and evolved their techniques from the Greek and Japanese systems (aka: Sambo, Modern Greco-Roman Wressling and BJJ)
And I think eventually we will see influance from these other arts start to filter into CMA
i wasnt under the understanding you were talking modern times but just over all in historical china...:o
both... in general i guess... i think its odd that nowhere in such a rich combative history do we see any chinese ground fighting styles... it makes me wonder that maybe there was and they are either lost or such rare fish in the huge chinese ocean that nobody notices them... i know that there are great chinese freestyle wrestlers, grecoroman wrestlers, jj, bjj sambo judo etc. they compete alot outside of china too... i think its something i want to look into, search for a chinese ground fighting style... logically, you would think one exists... martial fanatic + massive population = pretty much everything under the sun... but maybe im wrong, and it was completely overlooked for whatever reason... maybe the get back up mentality was so strong that staying down just seemed dumb at the time... and maybe for them, and who they were fighting, it was... but in this global community, eventually these things will be pulled together in elaborate hybrids, ofcourse there will still always be purests to guard the arts original states...
rant.....:rolleyes:
yeah....
Very interesting responses and less validation of each one's opinions about superiority of fighting techiques. I guess we are heading towards a question that everyone thought about it but never dared to ask. It is also interesting to see how TCMA monks or practitioners observed animals to learn some of submissions techniques and was not fully developed. It may had developed and then lost in the dust during times of turmoil in ancient China. The closest animal I have watched is the serpent when fights against a prey and the way it will submit its victim, this can be a clue that we humans can do the same way. Also, I found the dog style in China that uses some ground techniques but I need to read more about unless someone can tell us here about its specifics and techniques.
So far thanks to everybody and let's keep searching.
Thanks,
Mig
sanjuro_ronin
08-31-2010, 12:52 PM
Very interesting responses and less validation of each one's opinions about superiority of fighting techiques. I guess we are heading towards a question that everyone thought about it but never dared to ask. It is also interesting to see how TCMA monks or practitioners observed animals to learn some of submissions techniques and was not fully developed. It may had developed and then lost in the dust during times of turmoil in ancient China. The closest animal I have watched is the serpent when fights against a prey and the way it will submit its victim, this can be a clue that we humans can do the same way. Also, I found the dog style in China that uses some ground techniques but I need to read more about unless someone can tell us here about its specifics and techniques.
So far thanks to everybody and let's keep searching.
Thanks,
Mig
You know that the whole "monk observes animal makes kung fu style" thing is just stories, right?
SnowDog
08-31-2010, 12:56 PM
What little I've seen of Dog Boxing Demos, it looks more like a style that uses a lot of leg traping and locking on a standing opponent to drop them to the ground, more like the techniques in some Silat styles rather than a full fleged ground art like BJJ and Sub Wrestling
sanjuro_ronin
08-31-2010, 12:58 PM
What little I've seen of Dog Boxing Demos, it looks more like a style that uses a lot of leg traping and locking on a standing opponent to drop them to the ground, more like the techniques in some Silat styles rather than a full fleged ground art like BJJ and Sub Wrestling
Many of their trips are from silat, good eye.
But you will find most of them in BJJ, Judo, freestyle wrestling, etc.
Only so many ways to sweep, throw, lock and slap ass.
SnowDog
08-31-2010, 12:59 PM
You know that the whole "monk observes animal makes kung fu style" thing is just stories, right?
Next you're going to tell me that Bohidarma really didn't cut off his eye-lids and they turned into Green Tea plants. :eek:
SnowDog
08-31-2010, 01:01 PM
Many of their trips are from silat, good eye.
But you will find most of them in BJJ, Judo, freestyle wrestling, etc.
Only so many ways to sweep, throw, lock and slap ass.
Yeah, it's amazing the more you learn the more you find out it's actually the same stuff just in different wrapping paper.
next you're going to tell me that bohidarma really didn't cut off his eye-lids and they turned into green tea plants. :eek:
blasphemy!!!! Ye shall be hanged dead, devil!!!
sanjuro_ronin
08-31-2010, 01:06 PM
Yeah, it's amazing the more you learn the more you find out it's actually the same stuff just in different wrapping paper.
Someone has toe kicked the correct in the prostate and made it his ***** !!
Yeah, it's amazing the more you learn the more you find out it's actually the same stuff just in different wrapping paper.
in alot of cases, over and over and over and over and over and over and..........
some styles are almost identical to the letter... just have different forms... same techniques tho... lots of family styles change every generation... two bros learn from dad and two bros have different styles to pass on because they have different experiences and personalities... it would take millenia to unravel that ball of twine though... i bet the number of family styles is in the millions...
YouKnowWho
08-31-2010, 02:01 PM
Since we are talking about CMA and ground fight, I have to repeat this true story that happened in Taiwan many years ago. This story caused a great amount of tension between SC guys and Judo guys in Taiwan for many years.
Back in the 60th, the Central Police University in Taiwan (it was called Central Police Academy back then) had both 4 years SC course (taught by SC master) and 4 years Judo class (taught by 黄滄浪 Huang Cang Lang). At the end of the 4th year, before the police officers gradualation, there would be a SC and Judo mixed tournament before issued the 1st degree black belt to all students. Since Judo master taught his student the ground skill. But SC master didn't not. Some SC students asked their teacher how to handle the ground situation. The SC master taught them some biting skill. During the tournament, a Judo student got an arm bar on a SC student, the SC student bited on that Judo student's leg. The judo referee stoped that fight and made the SC student disqualified. The SC student said, "I just did exactly what my teacher taught me to do." Both the SC master and the Judo master went to the school principle. Here is that famous history debating:
A: His student bited my student in the ground game.
B: Why did you allow your student to do that?
C: Are we training police officers?
B: Yes! Why?
C: In the street when a criminal put an arm bar on our policer officer on the groud, should our police officer tap so the criminal will let him go free, or should our police officer try everything he can to get out of that situation.
The SC master won that famous historical debating.
Dragonzbane76
08-31-2010, 02:02 PM
What little I've seen of Dog Boxing Demos, it looks more like a style that uses a lot of leg traping and locking on a standing opponent to drop them to the ground, more like the techniques in some Silat styles rather than a full fleged ground art like BJJ and Sub Wrestling
from what i've seen I'll agree with you. It's really not grappling though a lot of larpers shout it's chinese grappling. It's not the most i've seen was tripping and swinging leg locks.
chusauli
08-31-2010, 03:01 PM
Groundfighting was in China. One just needs to look at Dog Boxing, Fukien Ground Fist, Di Tang Quan, and Qin Na. These were all practiced on the ground while rolling. Even present day Cantonese Southern Fist has some links to the ground - just look at Hung Kuen or CLF. Bak Mei and Lama even have a set called Dae Saat. Not to mention Drunken Fist has many ground maneuvers.
They're not like BJJ, Judo or as specialized as wrestling, but the major moves are there. You can see Kimura, Americana, Jujigatame, Mata Leo, Scissor Sweep, Sacrifice throws, and GNP in Chinese arts.
Somehow, to the fall of the Republic of China, ground fighting has been de-regulated. Chinese, culturally, feel that beating up someone on the ground is in poor taste, and to roll on the ground is also poor taste. You give an opponent a chance to get up. Perhaps Wu De has gone too far, or this is a cultural phenomenon.
diego
08-31-2010, 04:20 PM
I think you guys are full of **** let me tell you about the real world:
wrestling is a child's game sport fighters lose their peak after the age of 25 then they retire and buy a gun if they are intelligent.
all this bottom game top game is a crack heads mentality invented by beef cake coke junkies who train hard by using steroids. take away any ufc guys conditioning by smashing his knee and wrists with a hammer and his "technique" will resemble any pansy nonconditioned tma head.
when you are 60 it's all gone you get one strike you better have some sort of point needle in your hand and your footwork better be top notch...this is the essence of Bak mei. mad quick hands something a girl could use against a goliath bully.
everything else martial artists talk about is tv land done by peeps on drugs with great genetics that is not the martial art of self defense.
the real world of fighting riot squad does not gnp no they suit up full armor with shields batons and tear gas when they shut down gang fights in prison.
gung fu is the **** **** and always will be and gangster will tell you anything else is why god invented guns.:(
I think you guys are full of **** let me tell you about the real world:
wrestling is a child's game sport fighters lose their peak after the age of 25 then they retire and buy a gun if they are intelligent.
all this bottom game top game is a crack heads mentality invented by beef cake coke junkies who train hard by using steroids. take away any ufc guys conditioning by smashing his knee and wrists with a hammer and his "technique" will resemble any pansy nonconditioned tma head.
when you are 60 it's all gone you get one strike you better have some sort of point needle in your hand and your footwork better be top notch...this is the essence of Bak mei. mad quick hands something a girl could use against a goliath bully.
everything else martial artists talk about is tv land done by peeps on drugs with great genetics that is not the martial art of self defense.
the real world of fighting riot squad does not gnp no they suit up full armor with shields batons and tear gas when they shut down gang fights in prison.
gung fu is the **** **** and always will be and gangster will tell you anything else is why god invented guns.:(
thats bull****... soldiers rely on their guns and the members of their batallion, yet they train groundfighting... with and without weapons... and thats a whole lot more real than some retard thug chasing you with a knife... its about being ready for any situation... if you are delusional enough to believe you could never end up on your back, you will find out the hard way that youre wrong...
and it seems a few people in here, for some reason or another, are either unaware or unwilling to admit to themselves that you can do both... you can cover all ranges... its just the smart thing to do... to deny the possibilities is pure ego... as if the notion of groundfighting is an insult to cma or some dumb s h i t like that...
diego
08-31-2010, 05:05 PM
thats bull****... soldiers rely on their guns and the members of their batallion, yet they train groundfighting.
yeah they train groundfight didn't even read the rest halfwit...grappling is a child's game i said that of course they train it and then they grow up...
diego
08-31-2010, 05:06 PM
wrestling is a childs game that's why chinese emperors didn't find it too important.
diego
08-31-2010, 05:10 PM
like to be a bouncer all i gotta do is take some steroids making me like 230 pounds in a few months and do 6 months of jujitsu with big dudes who work as bouncers and i'll be able to take any redneck drunk out the bar within a year...that is skill any 17 year old native thug picks up from his cousins. bak mei is gonna take me 3 years of hard drilling to demo it's power in my next fight.
for real all I gotta work on is my grips and breakfalls and my wrassling is good enough to work at a bar...6 months of interval traing for my heart and 4 hours a dfay of getting tossed on my ass by big dudes. ****'s basic.
like to be a bouncer all i gotta do is take some steroids making me like 230 pounds in a few months and do 6 months of jujitsu with big dudes who work as bouncers and i'll be able to take any redneck drunk out the bar within a year...that is skill any 17 year old native thug picks up from his cousins. bak mei is gonna take me 3 years of hard drilling to demo it's power in my next fight.
for real all I gotta work on is my grips and breakfalls and my wrassling is good enough to work at a bar...6 months of interval traing for my heart and 4 hours a dfay of getting tossed on my ass by big dudes. ****'s basic.
mhmm..:rolleyes:
ima get one of these and light your a s s up wheb you arent looking!!!:mad::rolleyes::cool:;):D
http://www.tbotech.com/cellphonestungun.htm
ps: how do i leave a link but write my own words so it looks like this: click here ???
diego
08-31-2010, 11:36 PM
ima get one of these and light your a s s up wheb you arent looking!!!:mad::rolleyes::cool:;):D
http://www.tbotech.com/cellphonestungun.htm
ps: how do i leave a link but write my own words so it looks like this: click here ???
how are those legal? i want one just to **** people off. some guy at the beach saw me doing sub jee and i told him to go see sifu he did, I'm impressed! go to class syn...
Frost
08-31-2010, 11:58 PM
I think you guys are full of **** let me tell you about the real world:
wrestling is a child's game sport fighters lose their peak after the age of 25 then they retire and buy a gun if they are intelligent.
all this bottom game top game is a crack heads mentality invented by beef cake coke junkies who train hard by using steroids. take away any ufc guys conditioning by smashing his knee and wrists with a hammer and his "technique" will resemble any pansy nonconditioned tma head.
when you are 60 it's all gone you get one strike you better have some sort of point needle in your hand and your footwork better be top notch...this is the essence of Bak mei. mad quick hands something a girl could use against a goliath bully.
everything else martial artists talk about is tv land done by peeps on drugs with great genetics that is not the martial art of self defense.
the real world of fighting riot squad does not gnp no they suit up full armor with shields batons and tear gas when they shut down gang fights in prison.
gung fu is the **** **** and always will be and gangster will tell you anything else is why god invented guns.:(
lol go take your meds
bawang
09-01-2010, 12:46 AM
wombat combat has ground fighting. its a very ancient style kung fu
Dragonzbane76
09-01-2010, 04:27 AM
wrestling is a childs game that's why chinese emperors didn't find it too important.
your an idiot. :rolleyes:
Dragonzbane76
09-01-2010, 04:32 AM
Groundfighting was in China. One just needs to look at Dog Boxing, Fukien Ground Fist, Di Tang Quan, and Qin Na. These were all practiced on the ground while rolling. Even present day Cantonese Southern Fist has some links to the ground - just look at Hung Kuen or CLF. Bak Mei and Lama even have a set called Dae Saat. Not to mention Drunken Fist has many ground maneuvers.
they have some small aspects but they do not have a true system in it. Most of the "styles" you listed focus on getting up from the ground and not dominating on it. In all honesty TCMA's do not have a ground oriented system in place for ground. you can believe what you want about what ever mythical TCMA's style out there but they do not have a ground fighting system. It's not there. It's just not part of the fighting spec. in TCMA's.
Dragonzbane76
09-01-2010, 04:33 AM
wombat combat has ground fighting. its a very ancient style kung fu
wombat combat has testical pulling and fecal throwing in it... to hard core for me.
bawang
09-01-2010, 04:54 AM
ditang is not ground fighting. ditangs teaches rolls and breakfalls. today people add a lot of flipping and flowery things in between so its hard to tell
taai gihk yahn
09-01-2010, 05:03 AM
ditang is not ground fighting. ditangs teaches rolls and breakfalls. today people add a lot of flipping and flowery things in between so its hard to tell
deih tong has, as I understand it, a few main "points"
1) how to fall without getting hurt (or minimizing it) and recover quickly in order to get back up ASAP
2) if u hav limited means of doing body conditioning, throwing urself onto the floor repeatedly is one way of doing this
3) it's, like, TOTALLY cool to watch w those mad twists and wiked spin ups and sh1t and peeps be paying serious ca$h to see dat!!!
Frost
09-01-2010, 05:06 AM
so which art has good throws AND ground work on the level of BJJ?
or which ground focused art has throws as good as Judo and Sambo?
Emphasis on one always means a trade off with the other....
Maybe i am mssing something buit where did i argue that judo and wrestling have the same expertise on the ground as BJJ, actually where did anyone mention BJJ?:confused:
And i never said there was not a trade off, my point was you can have a ground game and still have big impact throws, both judo and wrestling (and as you pointed out Sambo) have a ground game but also have throws, if other styles have managed to do it whats to stop chinese wrestling from doing it?
Yes you are right the rules make the competition but if judo an still teach a good ground game without taking away from the throw, why cant chinese wrestling?
diego
09-01-2010, 05:07 AM
your an idiot. :rolleyes:I'm just saying decapitation by sword is common no one cares about a headlock..just use your tiger claw and break his fingers lol
bawang
09-01-2010, 05:09 AM
your puny sword is useless against my golden bell qigong. i deflect swords like tinfoil.
diego
09-01-2010, 05:14 AM
lol go take your meds Maybe you guys like to train topless with your pals in tights, when I fight I want armor mace and a foot long flashlight..yall practise takedowns maced in the dark with lasers in your eyes?.
Frost
09-01-2010, 05:16 AM
Maybe you guys like to train topless with your pals in tights, when I fight I want armor mace and a foot long flashlight..yall practise takedowns maced in the dark with lasers in your eyes?.
put down the bottle, back away from the computer and engage your brain before you engage your fingers:)
bawang
09-01-2010, 05:17 AM
yall practise takedowns maced in the dark with lasers in your eyes?.
ya on tuesdays
taai gihk yahn
09-01-2010, 05:25 AM
ya on tuesdays
I thot that was the day that u practiced ur plum flower pole jumping over the alligator pit...:confused:
ShaolinDan
09-01-2010, 05:38 AM
Gee. Pretty intense.
None of the 'real' fights I've been in (not many and all before I started training--I'm not a bad a*s :) ) involved weapons, however, every single one of them took place on pavement.
Unless you always wear your leather biker gear, or spend all your time on soccer fields, why do you want to wrestle so much?
On pavement even if you win you're still going to end up a mess.
The only thing missing from the kung fu ground game are some of the mounts you see in sport...it still has mounts though, but they're standing mounts--monkey stance for example. The goal is to maintain mobility.
I'm afraid if you really want a sophisticated ground game you'll need to x-train a sport art.
Personally, I think that's how it should be.
(Oh and by the way...those lizards rolling around on the ground with each other weren't wrestling ;) )
Dragonzbane76
09-01-2010, 05:41 AM
I'm just saying decapitation by sword is common no one cares about a headlock..just use your tiger claw and break his fingers lol
as long as we are jumping time frames in history and not focusing on the present..:p
I'll just put a round of buckshot up your ass and we'll see how well your armor and mace holds out.
screw all this talk of blah blah blah....history they did this and had swords and your not going to be rolling on the ground... hell I thought we were talking of present day...
you take your flash light and mace in a dark room and wack off with it I don't care...If your going to bring weapons to the table I'll bring a gun then.
Dragonzbane76
09-01-2010, 05:45 AM
The only thing missing from the kung fu ground game are some of the mounts you see in sport...it still has mounts though, but they're standing mounts--monkey stance for example. The goal is to maintain mobility.
there is a lot more missing than just some mounts...not picking on your in particular but... a lot of kung fu guys still hold out on this mentality... the fantasy of "I don't need a ground game, and the fight will not go to the ground because I have "X" and they can't take me down.."
There is more to a mount than "monkey" stance I'm sorry to say. It's a whole world down there that a lot of people just don't understand.
Iron_Eagle_76
09-01-2010, 05:58 AM
I always find it ironic that the ones who spout off the most about grappling are the ones with the least experience in it. Wonder why that is?:rolleyes:
ShaolinDan
09-01-2010, 05:58 AM
Kung Fu (at least what I learn) does not assume you won't go to the ground...it just assumes you'll want to get back up...
It has sweeps, take-downs, throws, locks, submissions, and strikes from the ground...what is it missing besides the mounts?
Probably what it's missing is practice, not techniques. I won't argue with that...
What else is it missing?
bawang
09-01-2010, 05:59 AM
why dont kung fu people just train ju jitsu? i thought american people were supposed to be open minded lol
O NO NO NO WE DONT DO THIS WE DONT DO THAT
ShaolinDan
09-01-2010, 06:03 AM
training BJJ is what we do in my school when we want to learn ground fighting.
Kung fu has plenty to offer already, we shouldn't be greedy, let some other arts have something to brag about, it's only fair.
bawang
09-01-2010, 06:06 AM
dont worry about groundifghting, can u go toe to toe with a muay thai guy. can u even fight with a boxer. NOE.
do average kung fu people really want to fight? NOE. deep down inside they are scare. they are big hairy pusy.
kung fu is a hobby recreational excercise. theres nothing wrong with that. its wrong when u claim u can make fighters because thats fraud.
diego
09-01-2010, 06:10 AM
there is a lot more missing than just some mounts...not picking on your in particular but... a lot of kung fu guys still hold out on this mentality... the fantasy of "I don't need a ground game, and the fight will not go to the ground because I have "X" and they can't take me down.."
There is more to a mount than "monkey" stance I'm sorry to say. It's a whole world down there that a lot of people just don't understand. But most people are lazy..any real fighter guy i know is a cokehead steroid guy who overtrains. Like if the average joe was fit to play water polo he could pick up bottom/top game easy. Being stuck on your back is deep and scary for newbs because they are chubby or frail. My one buddy is spending more time on jj instead of learning new gung fu. Says he tryn to be a fighter..i think he is just lazy and fat sucks at GF so he just wanna lay on his back n switch mount lmao dumb and **** needs a big wrestler to motivate him into getting fit.
ShaolinDan
09-01-2010, 06:10 AM
thanks Bawang, that's exactly the validation I'm looking for. :o
bawang
09-01-2010, 06:16 AM
But most people are lazy..any real fighter guy i know is a cokehead steroid guy who overtrains. Like if the average joe was fit to play water polo he could pick up bottom/top game easy. Being stuck on your back is deep and scary for newbs because they are chubby or frail. My one buddy is spending more time on jj instead of learning new gung fu. Says he tryn to be a fighter..i think he is just lazy and fat sucks at GF so he just wanna lay on his back n switch mount lmao dumb and **** needs a big wrestler to motivate him into getting fit.
kung fu is about transformation. transforming a small weak man into a big strong man. its not for weak people to cling to, to try to justify and acept their weakness and laziness.
thats what i hate about white and abc kung fu people. u guys say kung fu allows weak man to defeat strong man, all that "sicence of fighting" bullsh1t, that its ok to be skinny/fat and out of shape with girly fingers. thats whats killing kung fu. ITS NOT OK.
thanks Bawang, that's exactly the validation I'm looking for. :o
my penus over 2.3 cm long. i rub it gently against your ear
ShaolinDan
09-01-2010, 06:25 AM
kung fu is about transformation. transforming a small weak man into a big strong man. its not for weak people to cling to, to try to justify their weakness and laziness.
This is exactly what Shaolin training is about...
Now get out of my ear. :)
diego
09-01-2010, 06:33 AM
Lol bwang became scarface when his first teacher was the red panty guy in KUNG FU HUSTLE
Dragonzbane76
09-01-2010, 06:43 AM
Kung Fu (at least what I learn) does not assume you won't go to the ground...it just assumes you'll want to get back up...
It has sweeps, take-downs, throws, locks, submissions, and strikes from the ground...what is it missing besides the mounts?
I'm not saying KF doesn't have it's ups and positives, but no it does not have a complete ground game.
examples: transitions of mounts, transitions of tech., they do not have a large selection of submissions, locks, or throws, they do not have an escape proceedure from different mounts or traps. no picks, shrimping, controlled tention. They do not have sweeping guards, rubber guards, etc. etc,.etc. etc.....blah blah balh... I could go on and on...
anyways, what is missing you ask?????????? hum.....pretty much the whole ground domination perspective.
Dragonzbane76
09-01-2010, 06:45 AM
But most people are lazy..any real fighter guy i know is a cokehead steroid guy who overtrains. Like if the average joe was fit to play water polo he could pick up bottom/top game easy. Being stuck on your back is deep and scary for newbs because they are chubby or frail. My one buddy is spending more time on jj instead of learning new gung fu. Says he tryn to be a fighter..i think he is just lazy and fat sucks at GF so he just wanna lay on his back n switch mount lmao dumb and **** needs a big wrestler to motivate him into getting fit.
you love your blanket statments of generalization. :rolleyes:
ShaolinDan
09-01-2010, 06:51 AM
Hmm...Kung fu does not have a large selection of submissions, locks, or throws? That's news to me.
No escape procedure for mounts and traps? that's also news to me.
Guess I just got lucky...apparently the kung fu I'm studying isn't really kung fu. :p
I got to go...sorry. I'll be back for more fun later, I guess.
I agree the ground game isn't complete, but I don't think it's quite as lacking as you believe...
Dragonzbane76
09-01-2010, 07:06 AM
Hmm...Kung fu does not have a large selection of submissions, locks, or throws? That's news to me.
No escape procedure for mounts and traps? that's also news to me.
Guess I just got lucky...apparently the kung fu I'm studying isn't really kung fu.
I got to go...sorry. I'll be back for more fun later, I guess.
I agree the ground game isn't complete, but I don't think it's quite as lacking as you believe...
i'm not going to sit here and go back and forth about it. You have a different view of it as do I. I've yet to meet a TCMA that can honestly go on the ground.
as for the tech. listed above in your post, they do not have a strong list of what your depicting. yes they might have a few but they do not have the depth.
David Jamieson
09-01-2010, 08:09 AM
thanks Bawang, that's exactly the validation I'm looking for. :o
um....lol
well Bawang, how do you feel about that? :p
David Jamieson
09-01-2010, 08:14 AM
kung fu is about transformation. transforming a small weak man into a big strong man. its not for weak people to cling to, to try to justify and acept their weakness and laziness. Kung Fu is a transformative process to be sure, but so is living life. Kung Fu is about making yourself a skilled person in a chosen field through effort and time. That makes it different for anyone on a lot of levels. I don't think it was ever intended for the other stuff you've cast upon it there. lol
thats what i hate about white and abc kung fu people. u guys say kung fu allows weak man to defeat strong man, all that "sicence of fighting" bullsh1t, that its ok to be skinny/fat and out of shape with girly fingers. thats whats killing kung fu. ITS NOT OK.
This is what my Chinese teachers told me. lol I don't see "white guys" who go on about this as much as I see Chinese people insist that this is how it is. Kung Fu was killed by the same people who made it.
Chinese martial arts will return to origin eventually. Fist fighting , kicking, throwing, seizing...all these things are for sport now or personal study of anachronistic martial techniques.
True martial arts is not what we do, that's what soldiers do. We are all collectively hobbiests or sports inclined martial artists.
I can see it being of some use for police and medical folks as far as holds that restrain without pain and such, but, martial arts was dead when guns were invented.
MysteriousPower
09-01-2010, 09:16 AM
Did anyone see UFC 118? BJ Penn, a bjj world champ, has tons of experience on the ground. He went to throw a round house to Edgar's leg and Edgar sweeped the crap out of Penn. All the years of ground work did not keep him from freaking out and falling like an old person falling down the stairs. I was waiting for BJ Penn to yell, "I've fallen and I can't get up."
"Don't worry, mam. The ambulance is on the way."
I think it is more important to have a good balance between standing wrestling and ground game...with a little more efficiency toward stand up wrestling.
Dragonzbane76
09-01-2010, 09:18 AM
I think it is more important to have a good balance between standing wrestling and ground game...with a little more efficiency toward stand up wrestling.
agree with you
MysteriousPower
09-01-2010, 09:30 AM
agree with you
No one ever agrees with me! Do you agree to pay my rent for this month as well? :D
Dragonzbane76
09-01-2010, 09:36 AM
i agree to nothing and everything...:p
Frost
09-01-2010, 10:47 AM
Since we are talking about CMA and ground fight, I have to repeat this true story that happened in Taiwan many years ago. This story caused a great amount of tension between SC guys and Judo guys in Taiwan for many years.
Back in the 60th, the Central Police University in Taiwan (it was called Central Police Academy back then) had both 4 years SC course (taught by SC master) and 4 years Judo class (taught by 黄滄浪 Huang Cang Lang). At the end of the 4th year, before the police officers gradualation, there would be a SC and Judo mixed tournament before issued the 1st degree black belt to all students. Since Judo master taught his student the ground skill. But SC master didn't not. Some SC students asked their teacher how to handle the ground situation. The SC master taught them some biting skill. During the tournament, a Judo student got an arm bar on a SC student, the SC student bited on that Judo student's leg. The judo referee stoped that fight and made the SC student disqualified. The SC student said, "I just did exactly what my teacher taught me to do." Both the SC master and the Judo master went to the school principle. Here is that famous history debating:
A: His student bited my student in the ground game.
B: Why did you allow your student to do that?
C: Are we training police officers?
B: Yes! Why?
C: In the street when a criminal put an arm bar on our policer officer on the groud, should our police officer tap so the criminal will let him go free, or should our police officer try everything he can to get out of that situation.
The SC master won that famous historical debating.
not to be an as$ and i'm sure this happened but cheating (going outside the agreed rules of a comp) is just cheap and silly, the judo guys should have just started snapping limbs rther than waiting for the tap :)
And what would be YOUR reaction to someone who said my sifu says theres no need to learn standing grappling and throwing, just bite them when they come close?
as for the criminal putting on the arm bar he wouldn't, he would snap the arm so quickly you couldnt tap or bite
deih tong has, as I understand it, a few main "points"
1) how to fall without getting hurt (or minimizing it) and recover quickly in order to get back up ASAP
2) if u hav limited means of doing body conditioning, throwing urself onto the floor repeatedly is one way of doing this
3) it's, like, TOTALLY cool to watch w those mad twists and wiked spin ups and sh1t and peeps be paying serious ca$h to see dat!!!
and i dont see any reason why that shouldnt be combined with some ground fighting too... throw in some tight highstance styles and make small changes for transitions between the styles, add weapons and you have something complete and absolutely deadly at all ranges in all situations...
im not qualified to do that, but it can be done none the less...
I thot that was the day that u practiced ur plum flower pole jumping over the alligator pit...:confused:
psshht, over here we do that every day at dawn... sword in hand, blindfoled while choppin a mango dangling from a string right in half in mid flight while simultaneously catching the piece of mango for breakfast on the other side of the pit... then we go train for real...
Kansuke
09-01-2010, 09:02 PM
Gee. Pretty intense.
None of the 'real' fights I've been in (not many and all before I started training--I'm not a bad a*s :) ) involved weapons, however, every single one of them took place on pavement.
Unless you always wear your leather biker gear, or spend all your time on soccer fields, why do you want to wrestle so much?
On pavement even if you win you're still going to end up a mess.
)
:rolleyes:
Welcome back to the early 90s.
Kansuke
09-01-2010, 09:10 PM
I think you guys are full of **** let me tell you about the real world:
wrestling is a child's game sport fighters lose their peak after the age of 25 then they retire and buy a gun if they are intelligent.
all this bottom game top game is a crack heads mentality invented by beef cake coke junkies who train hard by using steroids. take away any ufc guys conditioning by smashing his knee and wrists with a hammer and his "technique" will resemble any pansy nonconditioned tma head.
when you are 60 it's all gone you get one strike you better have some sort of point needle in your hand and your footwork better be top notch... guns.:(
............. :rolleyes:
diego
09-02-2010, 06:17 AM
............. :rolleyes: your a scholar
ShaolinDan
09-02-2010, 06:32 AM
Welcome back to the early 90s.
Oh yes, silly me, I forgot...in the year 2000 all roads were repaved with a smooth hard rubber surface. How foolish of me to forget that road burn is a thing of the past. :)
Kansuke
09-02-2010, 09:13 AM
your a scholar
"you're"
:rolleyes:
Kansuke
09-02-2010, 09:21 AM
Oh yes, silly me, I forgot...in the year 2000 all roads were repaved with a smooth hard rubber surface. How foolish of me to forget that road burn is a thing of the past. :)
Aw, if the world is too hard and pointy for you maybe you should just stay inside, precious.
KC Elbows
09-02-2010, 04:35 PM
kung fu is about transformation. transforming a small weak man into a big strong man. its not for weak people to cling to, to try to justify and acept their weakness and laziness.
thats what i hate about white and abc kung fu people. u guys say kung fu allows weak man to defeat strong man, all that "sicence of fighting" bullsh1t, that its ok to be skinny/fat and out of shape with girly fingers. thats whats killing kung fu. ITS NOT OK.
To clarify,, I've been to China, and it's the same. It's not ABC's and white dudes, it''s the culture that did the damage. There's more good kung fu in China, but it's pretty difficult to find: any cursory search will turn up the same stuff that's here. And it isn't necessaqrily better, it's just more3 of the good stuff, but even harder to find.
Frankly, I can't name a white dude or an abc who turned out to be the3 source of the damage, but I can name lot of Chinese guys. BUT...the best teacher I've known was also Chinese.
Thus, those who find it better be more open about sharing it or it will die.
Lucas
09-02-2010, 04:44 PM
Thus, those who find it better be more open about sharing it or it will die.
now isnt that the irony...
fortunately, with the current generations taking up the mantle of teaching, this is becoming more and more the case.
the days of 'having something so special it needs to be doled out to the special' or 'having secret deadly techniques that cannot be shared with mere mortals' are over. :mad:
open up or share the fate of the dodo you resemble!!!!
SoCo KungFu
09-04-2010, 11:49 AM
Gee. Pretty intense.
None of the 'real' fights I've been in (not many and all before I started training--I'm not a bad a*s :) ) involved weapons, however, every single one of them took place on pavement.
Unless you always wear your leather biker gear, or spend all your time on soccer fields, why do you want to wrestle so much?
On pavement even if you win you're still going to end up a mess.
I played football in the street growing up cuz there wasn't enough grass around. You don't get half as messed up as you might think. But then, you haven't fought in forever so not like you'd know.
The only thing missing from the kung fu ground game are some of the mounts you see in sport
And proper leverage and control and locks that can actually break bones and **** since chi na don't work standing and it certainly don't work on the ground when the leverage is all different...
SoCo KungFu
09-04-2010, 11:52 AM
your a scholar
You're an idiot
ShaolinDan
09-04-2010, 12:02 PM
Thanks. You guys make me realize how lucky I am.
Thus, those who find it better be more open about sharing it or it will die.
i wonder how many great styles have been lost due to secrecy... they spend so much energy protecting the style and are so successful at guarding the secrets that all it takes is one freak accident and all knowledge is lost... father and son die in car crash... family style, gone... kind of sad... it brings up some interesting points tho... if you dont guard the style, it will be changed and re-arranged, eventually, in a way the founding line may not approve of... this could also be said for anyone tho, the sigung is gone and sifu changes some things that sigung may not have approved of... but its more likely to change if the style leaves the family hands... but the opposite is also true, it may not recieve changes for the better becoz the style never left family hands... personally, the secrecy i prefer is the kind where they dont show outsiders anything but modified "tagged" forms for demonstrations, but anyone can be a student aslong as they have shown to be worthy... bring them in, teach a form or two and get to know them, if they pass the "inegrity tests", whatever they may be, then they start learning the basics of the system...
and i understand that some people would want to keep it in the family... and thats fair enough, but they should teach more than one person... for some people its very personal and very important, and you cant mess with that, i respect that... but its too bad, in alot of cases im sure, we've lost the opportunity to learn some amazing stuff... and im convinced that atleast some people created groundfighting systems, or subsystems, but i guess not enough people cared to keep them alive... or they are alive and nobody cares enough to notice and we just cant find it but its there... anyways, theres more than enough out there for anyone who wants to learn tho, i cant imagine anyone complaining that there arent enough choices... you may not find exactly what you want, in some cases what you want isnt realistic, but you will find something... thats forsure...
rant...:D
ShaolinDan
09-04-2010, 01:11 PM
I can only assume you're not aware that armbars, figure-fours, headlocks, chicken wings, full-nelsons, &c. are part of chin na.
And proper leverage and control and locks that can actually break bones and **** since chi na don't work standing and it certainly don't work on the ground when the leverage is all different...
really??? i dunno, ive seen it being used effectively... there are so many versions and styles that you cant base it all on a few examples... ive seen some pretty advanced chinna using all sorts of great techniques... not a full out ground game, but close to it... just has a huge emphasis on getting back up... whereas something like bjj may choose to stay down and fight from there... but even in bjj for defence, theres a big emphasis on getting up... or atleast on top...
Frost
09-04-2010, 02:41 PM
I can only assume you're not aware that armbars, figure-fours, headlocks, chicken wings, full-nelsons, &c. are part of chin na.
Chin na has locks, chokes etc we all know that exactly how useful they are is another matter, but chin na does not have the positions and movment on the ground to make these work in that enviroment
unless that is out of the thousands of kung fu schools out there you are the only one lucky enough to have a proper teacher teaching the real kung fu ground wok....well either that or you are being taken for a ride .........i know where i put my money
Frost
09-04-2010, 02:46 PM
really??? i dunno, ive seen it being used effectively... there are so many versions and styles that you cant base it all on a few examples... ive seen some pretty advanced chinna using all sorts of great techniques... not a full out ground game, but close to it... just has a huge emphasis on getting back up... whereas something like bjj may choose to stay down and fight from there... but even in bjj for defence, theres a big emphasis on getting up... or atleast on top...
its hard to pull off any standing lock 1 on 1 not only because of lack of leverage but also because their is too much freedom of movement standing, the only time you see it work is in a situation where its two or more on 1, and limiting his movement that way, or taking the guy down first, limiting his movement and then aplying the move
ShaolinDan
09-04-2010, 03:05 PM
Right, I forgot. Sorry. Kung fu might have a jab, but it doesn't know how to use it. Kung fu might have an armbar, but it doesn't know how to use it, and so on... cool, I see what I'm hitting my head against.
Frost
09-04-2010, 03:10 PM
Right, I forgot. Sorry. Kung fu might have a jab, but it doesn't know how to use it. Kung fu might have an armbar, but it doesn't know how to use it, and so on... cool, I see what I'm hitting my head against.
ok lets try again, please post any video or a clip of a kung fu student applying an armbar on the ground, it should be easy to find right
Can you please name the kung fu style you do, people on this site hae been looking for a TCMA style that includes ground work for years they would love to know what it is.......................
ShaolinDan
09-04-2010, 03:41 PM
Funny, I did a couple of searches (one was "youtube kung fu ground fighting" the other was "youtube kung fu armbar on ground") and was actually surprised how much I found (not tons, mind you, but not nothing). Someone who used to (maybe still does) post on here, IronFist108, even has an armbar on ground video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncE6CfnBnMI
Guess I'm not as lucky as I thought I was.
Maybe you should search yourself...I'm sure you can tell me what's wrong with all these videos...there's always something wrong.
I study Shaolin and eagle claw by the way, my chin na of course is mostly from the eagle claw. And yes, mostly it is from standing (with either a standing or grounded opponent). Mostly, but not always.
ShaolinDan
09-04-2010, 03:51 PM
Admittedly this arm bar is on the ground, but not from the ground, but y'know, I posted it because it's from someone from this forum. :)
Frost
09-04-2010, 03:58 PM
Funny, I did a couple of searches (one was "youtube kung fu ground fighting" the other was "youtube kung fu armbar on ground") and was actually surprised how much I found (not tons, mind you, but not nothing). Someone who used to (maybe still does) post on here, IronFist108, even has an armbar on ground video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncE6CfnBnMI
Guess I'm not as lucky as I thought I was.
Maybe you should search yourself...I'm sure you can tell me what's wrong with all these videos...there's always something wrong.
I study Shaolin and eagle claw by the way, my chin na of course is mostly from the eagle claw. And yes, mostly it is from standing (with either a standing or grounded opponent). Mostly, but not always.
at least we have cleared up what you mean by arm bars and fighting on the ground in general. good luck in your training
ShaolinDan
09-04-2010, 04:15 PM
I think I was pretty clear on that all the way through this thread. look back, you'll find I say LOTS of things you don't agree with.
:)
Good luck to you too.
KC Elbows
09-07-2010, 01:44 PM
Chin na has locks, chokes etc we all know that exactly how useful they are is another matter, but chin na does not have the positions and movment on the ground to make these work in that enviroment
unless that is out of the thousands of kung fu schools out there you are the only one lucky enough to have a proper teacher teaching the real kung fu ground wok....well either that or you are being taken for a ride .........i know where i put my money
The book chin na fa, republished by Tim Cartmell, has old pics of many of those moves. Pics from the thirties maybe, referring to notes given the original author when he was younger.
Whether most schools train it is one thing, but the argument that those moves listed didn't or don't exist at all from the Chinese arts is demonstrably false. Now, the positioning approaches are not in those texts, and we could argue all day why there's such an emphasis in Chinese culture to not going to the ground, but, having been to China, I'm pretty confident that the wisest course there is not to lay on the ground. Anyone who has been there will agree, methinks. There's always a toddler in arseless pants nearby, after all!:D
David Jamieson
09-07-2010, 01:50 PM
Chin Na / Kum Na = "grabs seizing holding"
how does one type of grabbing and seizing work and another not? :confused:
lol.
a sleeper qualifies as chin na. but it doesn't work because it has a chinese name?
where the **** are these people coming from? lol
KC Elbows
09-07-2010, 02:04 PM
:DNo, nothing too eastern can work. If an ancient greek man hasn't gotten his hands over it like it was an ancient greek boy, it's not practical.:D
This is why the Romans were so ghey for the Greek culture, and why the Christians were so ghey for roman culture, and us Americans are so ghey for Jerry Brookheimer movies: if we can't be ghey for it, it's just not right.
These Chinese arts, with their emphasis on cultivation, whoever oiled themselves up and went out to grab a man over cultivation?
at least we have cleared up what you mean by arm bars and fighting on the ground in general. good luck in your training
arm bar is a pretty broad term... my understanding is that an arm bar is any lock where the elbow and/or shoulder is bieng locked... but i wouldnt consider a wrist lock in the arm bar family... not sure what common concensus is... but thats what ive learned... and its been awhile, so i have to go back and read notes from ages ago to be sure about alotta things i was taught... glad i wrote stuff down...
so an omaplatta would be a type of arm bar, technically speaking...
whats your def. of an arm bar? anyone?
quick wiki search:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arm_bar
An armlock in grappling is a single or double joint lock that hyperextends, hyperflexes or hyperrotates the elbow joint and/or shoulder joint.
opinions, anyone?
BUT, if you said "mr X won by armbar" i would be thinking straight arm bar, legs over torso and head, thumb up hips out... to me thats the most generalized version of an armbar, i think most people are reffering to that when they say arm bar...
Frost
09-08-2010, 04:41 AM
Chin Na / Kum Na = "grabs seizing holding"
how does one type of grabbing and seizing work and another not? :confused:
lol.
a sleeper qualifies as chin na. but it doesn't work because it has a chinese name?
where the **** are these people coming from? lol
One type of grabbiong and seizing works because it limites the opponents ability to move. This usually means on the ground or against an unmoving obsticale (even this is low percentage hence you dont see many locks int he clinch even up against the cage wall, the oppoent simply has too much freedom of movement.) locking without limiting this movement is very low percentage.
That is why applying locks on the ground is more high percentage than standing locks, and why you can find lots of evidence of these locks working in fights and on youtube on the ground, but not many where both guys are standing or one is stood over the other, this is also why in sparring you hardly if ever pull off standing locks or see them pulled off, byut you see locks working on the ground all the time
Of course if your expereince is different thats great, this is simply mine from my training and looking at fights etc
KC Elbows
09-08-2010, 05:52 AM
A huge number of throws that are used a lot begin with locks in order to force motion in a narrower range that transfers into the throw. There is escape from locks, but only in specific directions, which is exactly the situation you want to put someone in so that they are coopted into being thrown.
David Jamieson
09-08-2010, 09:18 AM
One type of grabbiong and seizing works because it limites the opponents ability to move. This usually means on the ground or against an unmoving obsticale (even this is low percentage hence you dont see many locks int he clinch even up against the cage wall, the oppoent simply has too much freedom of movement.) locking without limiting this movement is very low percentage.
That is why applying locks on the ground is more high percentage than standing locks, and why you can find lots of evidence of these locks working in fights and on youtube on the ground, but not many where both guys are standing or one is stood over the other, this is also why in sparring you hardly if ever pull off standing locks or see them pulled off, byut you see locks working on the ground all the time
Of course if your expereince is different thats great, this is simply mine from my training and looking at fights etc
uh, chicken wing and various "come alongs" are in essence standing locks.
If it goes somewhere from there, fine, but to the best of my knowledge, standing locks are very popular with cops, jail guards and square badges.
lol so, I dunno, does their experience count? Or are we only talking about ring fight venues here where you have two equal opponents using same/same training regimens and approaching the contact from a particular ruleset?
what about coat drags? underhook and throw? these are all in the chinese martial arts I practice.
I guess the hating will never stop. lol
diego
09-08-2010, 10:42 AM
its hard to pull off any standing lock 1 on 1 not only because of lack of leverage but also because their is too much freedom of movement standing, the only time you see it work is in a situation where its two or more on 1, and limiting his movement that way, or taking the guy down first, limiting his movement and then aplying the move pretty much all the chinna I've seen in kajukenbo and bak mei are used witi footwork..sweeps kicks and stomps **** your sparring pal has no time to tap out on but they work lovely on a drunk as a set up for your iron foot in that azz lol@ twisting a big guys wrist askn for a tap dance.
submissions can be great ways to get back on your feet too... like using a kimura from the bottom to gain top position... then you can work on standing back up from there... bottom line is, if somebody puts you on your back in a fight, u need to know how to get back up if you dont want to groundfight, but yoou need groundfighting skills to avoid ground fighting sometimes... like using wrestling ability to avoid takedowns and keep it on your feet...
its crazy to say something like "i'll never end up on my back so i dont need to know how to fight from there"...
and besides ground fighting isnt all from the bottom... there is emphasis on top position and standing back up aswell as avoiding takedowns etc etc...
Frost
09-08-2010, 01:28 PM
uh, chicken wing and various "come alongs" are in essence standing locks.
If it goes somewhere from there, fine, but to the best of my knowledge, standing locks are very popular with cops, jail guards and square badges.
lol so, I dunno, does their experience count? Or are we only talking about ring fight venues here where you have two equal opponents using same/same training regimens and approaching the contact from a particular ruleset?
what about coat drags? underhook and throw? these are all in the chinese martial arts I practice.
I guess the hating will never stop. lol
you are quite insecure aren't you when it comes to your training.... where am i hating on TCMA,? i said standing locks are low percentage (that includes those seen in GJJ as well as chin na)
My stance has always been unless you outnumber the opponent (as in the case of cops, guards and LEO types) these locks standing are impractical as there is too much freedom of movement, but if you can post lots of clips of 1 on 1 situations where they are used please do so.
What normally happens is that 2 or move cops tackle the guy (usually to the ground) then apply the lock and use it as a come along, that is not how the majority of chin na is practised is it?
Frost
09-08-2010, 01:29 PM
pretty much all the chinna I've seen in kajukenbo and bak mei are used witi footwork..sweeps kicks and stomps **** your sparring pal has no time to tap out on but they work lovely on a drunk as a set up for your iron foot in that azz lol@ twisting a big guys wrist askn for a tap dance.
as said before you need to engage your brain before you type :)
David Jamieson
09-08-2010, 01:56 PM
you are quite insecure aren't you when it comes to your training.... where am i hating on TCMA,? i said standing locks are low percentage (that includes those seen in GJJ as well as chin na)
My stance has always been unless you outnumber the opponent (as in the case of cops, guards and LEO types) these locks standing are impractical as there is too much freedom of movement, but if you can post lots of clips of 1 on 1 situations where they are used please do so.
What normally happens is that 2 or move cops tackle the guy (usually to the ground) then apply the lock and use it as a come along, that is not how the majority of chin na is practised is it?
not at all. I am responding to your statements about standing locks being questionable and saying rather clearly that they are not what you describe them to be.
It seems that you understand wrestling and how to put a lock on there and it also seems that that is where you are comfortable.
anyway, try not to get all passive aggressive and making statements about whether or not something does or does not work. In regards to leos, guards and square badges, you are wrong. I've trained with guys and have trained guys who have done these things solo, so my experience is different than yours. That's all.
I don't see how that makes me insecure in my training. lol I'm perfectly happy with it!
your stance will always be what it's going to be, but that doesn't diminish anyone else's experience or point of view one iota.
are you insecure about that? lol :p
YouKnowWho
09-08-2010, 05:17 PM
i said standing locks are low percentage...
There is no such thing as "standing lock". All locks will go to the ground. If you let your opponent to stand on his feet, he will have too many different ways to counter you. This is the major difference between CMA and BJJ. CMA will use the lock to take your opponent down. BJJ will drag you down and then apply lock on you.
http://johnswang.com/Human_Disassembly.wmv
http://johnswang.com/Bronco_Busting.wmv
http://johnswang.com/DevilsHandcuff.wmv
http://johnswang.com/Kneeling_Hold.wmv
http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/3905/chang5.jpg
http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/9972/chang1.jpg
http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/4378/chang2.jpg
http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/9092/chang3.jpg
http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/9844/chang4.jpg
Dragonzbane76
09-09-2010, 03:55 AM
In regards to leos, guards and square badges, you are wrong. I've trained with guys and have trained guys who have done these things solo, so my experience is different than yours. That's all.
In all honesty i have to agree with Frost, when going into CJ you are almost always taught from day one, never do it alone. I have seen people do standing locks (cops, CO's, etc.) alone but most of the time when alone you wait for backup, stall, pepper spray, stun gun etc. In doing the standing lock you are just asking for trouble, and most Officers will take the person down and then apply the locks, lot more JJ/BJJ today in the law inforcement than yester years.
tiaji1983
09-10-2010, 01:06 AM
Uhmm. TCMA does have ground fighting. Any Qinna you can do standing, you can do on the ground. You can grab the groin, eye gouge, pinch, punch, kick, etc on the ground. Every TCMA has Punches, kicks, Qinna, and Shuai Jiao. Aikido came from Bagua, Jiujitsu came from Qinna, etc, and they all came from Shaolin. of course there were other arts before Shaolin, but its all there. If you dont see grappling and ground fighting in TCMA, then you dont see the truth. Only TCMA would rather not go to the ground because its designed for multiple opponents.
Frost
09-10-2010, 05:26 AM
Uhmm. TCMA does have ground fighting. Any Qinna you can do standing, you can do on the ground. You can grab the groin, eye gouge, pinch, punch, kick, etc on the ground. Every TCMA has Punches, kicks, Qinna, and Shuai Jiao. Aikido came from Bagua, Jiujitsu came from Qinna, etc, and they all came from Shaolin. of course there were other arts before Shaolin, but its all there. If you dont see grappling and ground fighting in TCMA, then you dont see the truth. Only TCMA would rather not go to the ground because its designed for multiple opponents.
no you cant do it doesnt and no they didnt, and finally really well if you say so :)
The logistics of applying locks either standiong and on the ground is differnt, how you imobalize the joint, move around the opponent and pin him changes once you hit the ground, if it did not chinese artists would not have to learn BJJ in order to be good on the ground, and they do.... every single chinese stylist competing in MMA does BJJ/Sambo.. If you dont understand the princiles of hiarchy of movement, how to escape bad positions and improve to a better position, how ro move your hips and create space you will not be able to hit bite, kick pinch or do anything else other than scream and tap
Aikido did not come from bagua, the founder did spend time in china but there is no proof he learned any bagua but he did study akai styles though, the history of jujistsu likewise has no documented link to chinese arts, and the whole shaolin thing is a myth busted wide open by the likes of adam Hsu and other scholars please stop believeing the pulp fiction novels and the water margin novels and taking them for actual factual documents.
i think its you thats missing the truth here sorry
Dragonzbane76
09-10-2010, 05:30 AM
Every TCMA has Punches, kicks, Qinna, and Shuai Jiao.
in all honesty shuai jiao is not a ground oriented style. More oriented towards clinch.
sanjuro_ronin
09-10-2010, 05:35 AM
I have YET to see ONE TCMA that is a "ground grappling" system along the lines of BJJ or Judo or Sambo, much less submission grappling.
Frost
09-10-2010, 05:41 AM
I have YET to see ONE TCMA that is a "ground grappling" system along the lines of BJJ or Judo or Sambo, much less submission grappling.
thats because you have not seen the real TCMA :)
sanjuro_ronin
09-10-2010, 06:02 AM
thats because you have not seen the real TCMA :)
That's because that slippery sucker is hiding !!
Freaking ninjas !
Dragonzbane76
09-10-2010, 06:33 AM
what if I told you it didn't exist? Like santa clause? would that upset you? Did I just take your childhood into my hand and squeeze it till all hopes and dreams were shattered? Crippling you like a three legged dog.
False hope is ok though... it gives us all something to look forward to. :D
ShaolinDan
09-10-2010, 08:15 AM
Funny to watch this thread go round and round in circles.
Having a 'ground game' and having a 'ground grappling game' aren't quite the same.
Having a 'ground grappling game' and having a 'highly sophisticated ground grappling game' aren't quite the same.
Those who think KF has no ground fighting are simply wrong.
Those who think KF has ground fighting on the level of BJJ are simply wrong.
This thread is full of almost, but not quite, true information. Hilarious.
Kung fu vs. MMA Waltz, round and round we go. :) Very romantic.
sanjuro_ronin
09-10-2010, 08:30 AM
I think you may be confused Dan, its not whether TCMA has a ground game of ANY kind, every MA has that.
Its whether it has an effective ground game, or a ground game that can be viewed as comparbale to those that HAVE BEEN PROVEN effective.
It does NOT.
See, outside of GnP, the only ground game there is is grappling.
TCMA does not have that.
It doesn't matter HOW MUCH someone wants TCMA to have a ground game, the fact is, they don't have it.
By the way, dropping to the floor and kicking and punching from the floor and rolling around on the floor does NOT constitute a "ground game".
Dragonzbane76
09-10-2010, 08:33 AM
By the way, dropping to the floor and kicking and punching from the floor and rolling around on the floor does NOT constitute a "ground game".
this.....:)
ShaolinDan
09-10-2010, 08:46 AM
Right. My mistake. Thanks for clearing that up for me. :rolleyes:
sanjuro_ronin
09-10-2010, 08:48 AM
Right. My mistake. Thanks for clearing that up for me. :rolleyes:
Hey, no problem, that's what I am here for.
Clearing up mistakes
Reminding people of common sense
Point out that just because we want something to be true, doesn't mean it is.
Expressing my views on MA that I have done and seen in over 30 years and on 3 different continents
Posting pics of scantly clad babes :D
MasterKiller
09-10-2010, 08:49 AM
It doesn't matter HOW MUCH someone wants TCMA to have a ground game, the fact is, they don't have it.
Sense. Stop making it.
KC Elbows
09-10-2010, 08:54 AM
I think you may be confused Dan, its not whether TCMA has a ground game of ANY kind, every MA has that.
Its whether it has an effective ground game, or a ground game that can be viewed as comparbale to those that HAVE BEEN PROVEN effective.
It does NOT.
See, outside of GnP, the only ground game there is is grappling.
TCMA does not have that.
It doesn't matter HOW MUCH someone wants TCMA to have a ground game, the fact is, they don't have it.
By the way, dropping to the floor and kicking and punching from the floor and rolling around on the floor does NOT constitute a "ground game".
Traditional chin na, in some branches, had pieces of it, and some branches still train those pieces. Largely single techniques, yes, like arm bars on the ground, guillotines, common chokes and locks as done on the gound: not a system per se, merely techs, but this is not the same as no proven techs, the techs are largely the same as any other style training them.
The difference is not in the content of traditional chin na, but the likelihood of a branch actually being aware of these moves and training them. Actually working these locks and chokes would be better than what most schools have, but, truth be told, it still would not constitute a system, that part is true, but a total absence of even sone basic techs of ground fighting is erroneous: I've seen one line of snake boxing that stressed using the waist for positioning on the ground, and one text that included some moves that are bread and butter ground fighting techniques(the aforementioned chin na fa, which Tim Cartmell made available in english).
This is not to suggest kung fu has everything, or that ground fighting isn't potentially important, just that any assessment of what tcma is is going to fall into difficulties because of the varied material. Training with weapons, as far as effectiveness, is still, by every criterion, more important. Especially fissionable material.
Additionally, anyone who has not seen a cop use his car to hold someone at the end of a standing lock, without another cop involved, needs to get out of the suburbs.
Flame on!
Dragonzbane76
09-10-2010, 08:57 AM
Additionally, anyone who has not seen a cop use his car to hold someone at the end of a standing lock, without another cop involved, needs to get out of the suburbs.
using anything, just not a static lock or controlling manu in static. Most times its the ground, easies and simpliest to get to.
sanjuro_ronin
09-10-2010, 08:58 AM
I've seen Tim's stuff and have his book, there is some debate as to where those moves came form by the way, with quite a few suggesting that they came from Judo because of the time period and those moves NOT being noted anywhere before that time.
KC Elbows
09-10-2010, 09:07 AM
I've seen Tim's stuff and have his book, there is some debate as to where those moves came form by the way, with quite a few suggesting that they came from Judo because of the time period and those moves NOT being noted anywhere before that time.
Damo invented the Japanese people, so your point is moot.
Where is this debate taking place?
KC Elbows
09-10-2010, 09:11 AM
using anything, just not a static lock or controlling manu in static. Most times its the ground, easies and simpliest to get to.
No one is suggesting a static use, and I'm pretty sure for cops the choice of a car is very common, since that's often the context in which some cops are dealing with people, but the ground is also an option. However, I've seen the car used often in life and in footage, so it seems that there is a bit of a problem with the claim that it's only occuring when multiple cops are involved, cause I'm pretty sure everyone has seen lots of the same footage I've seen.
Dragonzbane76
09-10-2010, 09:22 AM
wasn't refuting the car option, just stating that you probably won't see a cop or CO try to put a static lock on someone without the aid of the ground or surrounding area or another cop/co.
KC Elbows
09-10-2010, 09:28 AM
wasn't refuting the car option, just stating that you probably won't see a cop or CO try to put a static lock on someone without the aid of the ground or surrounding area or another cop/co.
My point is you often see standing locks, however, it's just not standing in the sense of "you're magically held in place here in mid air", which no one is arguing here, but several(not you) are arguing as if everyone else is saying that's how a standing lock works. Anything that locks out a limb is obviously a lock, this does not mean it is a lock on all options or that it cannot be escaped from the standing position. In fact, all those arguing for standing locks that I've read the last few pages have stated, among other things, that they are then transitioned into other things. No one is arguing for static standing locks, but several are arguing against imaginary people arguing for it.
That said, I routinely lock people in zero g on a surfaceless plane.
YouKnowWho
09-10-2010, 11:41 AM
Kung Fu
- has ground game that you take your opponent all the way down to the ground and then choke him, arm bar him, or strike him.
- does not have ground game that when you are on the bottom, you try to get back on top, or your try to get out of your opponent's mounting, arm bar, or choke.
Kung Fu has "offense" ground skill but lack "defense" ground skill. In other words, Kung Fu has no "testing" for ground game.
KC Elbows
09-10-2010, 11:43 AM
Kung Fu
- has ground game that you take your opponent all the way down to the ground and then choke him, arm bar him, or strike him.
- does not have ground game that when you are on the bottom, you try to get back on top, or your try to get out of your opponent's mounting, arm bar, or choke.
We're not supposed to get to this part of the discussion until page twenty-eight. You're giving away the secrets, man.
Uhmm. TCMA does have ground fighting. Any Qinna you can do standing, you can do on the ground. You can grab the groin, eye gouge, pinch, punch, kick, etc on the ground. Every TCMA has Punches, kicks, Qinna, and Shuai Jiao. Aikido came from Bagua, Jiujitsu came from Qinna, etc, and they all came from Shaolin. of course there were other arts before Shaolin, but its all there. If you dont see grappling and ground fighting in TCMA, then you dont see the truth. Only TCMA would rather not go to the ground because its designed for multiple opponents.
ok i dont even know where to start with this statement... i wont even touch the aikido is from bagua part...
anyone who believes that the locks in tcma is the same as bjj is delusional... anyone who believes that the locks in tcma can all be applied on the ground with the same principles doesnt understand groundfighting... i am willing to concede that alot, maybe even most, chin na can be adapted into a ground fighting system, as it stands(no pun intended) it doesnt work as well on the ground as a more ground oriented style like bjj...
YouKnowWho
09-10-2010, 04:08 PM
chin na can be adapted into a ground fighting system, as it stands(no pun intended) it doesnt work as well on the ground as a more ground oriented style like bjj...
We can also say that BJJ type of joint lock won't work well in stand up as well. The following "neck lock" works well when your opponent's hip is on the ground but his upper body is not. If your opponent's upper body is also on the ground, you will lost that perfect leverage you need.
http://johnswang.com/Human_Disassembly.wmv
The stand up "triangle shoulder lock (don't have a clip for this) - right arm press against your opponent's right forearm, left arm wrap behind his right arm, and lock on your own right forearm, you use both arms to press his right arm behind his shoulder" won't work well on the ground because you can't bend your opponent's arm beyond the ground surface (the ground will stop your bending movement). If you dig a hole on the ground behind your opponent's right shoulder, the "triangle shoulder lock" will still work well on the ground.
The "head lock" will work both in stand up and also on the ground.
I will not say that CMA locking skill does not work because the "triangle shoulder lock" won't work on the ground. I also will not say that BJJ locking skill does not work because "leg bar" does not work well in stand up game.
By the way, dropping to the floor and kicking and punching from the floor and rolling around on the floor does NOT constitute a "ground game".
agreed... but if you added these moves like in dog boxing with a great submission grappling art you would have a more complete ground game, no???
like that guy in the kicking fight science vid... the capoeira guy doing that kick from the crouch, tell me how that wouldnt work well when getting back up with a bit of distance between you and your opponent...??? it would be sweet to see some bjj cat do that in a match... i mean it was a bad a s s kick after all... and it would catch alot of folks off guard... he plants his hand like he's about to stand, the opponent tries to close the gap but unfortunately finds his head in the back bleachers from something he never saw comming...
cant wait to see all groundfighting combine to a more well rounded style of striking and grappling... not just the average GnP bull****...
ive noticed that unorthodox stricks from the ground work pretty well sometimes... esspecially when elbows are allowed... you cant go north south but if you twist your torso you can do the same strike legally... same motion same weapon, just east west instead... always thought that was kind of stupid... allow both or niether...
We can also say that BJJ type of joint lock won't work well in stand up as well. The following "neck lock" works well when your opponent's hip is on the ground but his upper body is not. If your opponent's upper body is also on the ground, you will lost that perfect leverage you need.
http://johnswang.com/Human_Disassembly.wmv
full nelson...
lol i learned that in wrestling as an illegal hold when i was a kid... we were taught it as a crank tho, not a lock... learned it again in no gi bjj but there was a whole standing setup and takedown involved and ultimately it was used to take the back and stay on top, flatten the guy out and then you can choose your weapon from there... rnc, whatever...
Lucas
09-10-2010, 04:59 PM
my first sifu was raised in a temple and trained in the temple kungfu, even his grand master had him learn judo from one of his japanese friends .....and he taught him a lot of shaolin.....this judo material crossed over into his teaching his students. but he wouldnt say it was cma either he would say 'this judo' and then teach. the good ones know their limitations.
Lucas
09-10-2010, 05:03 PM
you know its funny you never see muay thai trying to claim some long lost link to ground fighting.....they understand their strenght lies in smashing your limbs with theirs, clinching you and crushing your lower ribs to death.
EarthDragon
09-10-2010, 05:24 PM
tiaji1983
Every TCMA has Punches, kicks, Qinna, and Shuai Jiao. Aikido came from Bagua, Jiujitsu came from Qinna, etc, and they all came from Shaolin. of course there were other arts before Shaolin, but its all there. If you dont see grappling and ground fighting in TCMA, then you dont see the truth. Only TCMA would rather not go to the ground because its designed for multiple opponents.
did this guy just say this??????
bawang
09-10-2010, 07:19 PM
what if I told you it didn't exist? Like santa clause? would that upset you? Did I just take your childhood into my hand and squeeze it till all hopes and dreams were shattered? Crippling you like a three legged dog.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
lol
tiaji1983
09-10-2010, 07:30 PM
did this guy just say this??????
Yes he did... Why? Whats wrong with it?
Yes he did... Why? Whats wrong with it?
have you not read all the posts after yours???
the floor is yours:D
KC Elbows
09-10-2010, 09:16 PM
The problem with the argument that all TCMA has throws and locks is that the reality is, all tcma has some of those, but not the same parts, and most do not have a vast comprehensive body of each.
And it doesn't all come from shaolin: most shaolin kungfu didn't originate at shaolin.
KC Elbows
09-10-2010, 09:27 PM
Okay, looked for the discussion on the book chin na fa discussed earlier, the closest thing I could find lead to an interesting read on several possibly related issues, but unfortunately I couldn't verify that a single Chinese source was used at all, though I could be wrong. I'll see if I can find some Chinese sources.
SoCo KungFu
09-10-2010, 09:54 PM
Yes he did... Why? Whats wrong with it?
It wreaks of dumb@$$...
KC Elbows
09-10-2010, 10:17 PM
Okay, in the discussion I did manage to find regarding the book chin na fa, there is a repeated error that isn't helping in clearing up the issue(whether the 1936 book by Liu Jinsheng was judo influenced, or, as he says in the book, from a Chinese text). This 1936 text is confused with an 1915/1919 Shanghai Police manual that may likely have been influenced by judo, said point also contested by someone stating the version of judo referenced was not known for ground work. This said, it's a forum discussion with some interesting info that can't be easily checked on due to lacking chinese source citations.
In the discussion, the claim that these techniques are from judo is transfered wholesale onto the 1936 manual without clear research by another poster based on statements regarding the 1919 manual, not the 1936 manual. Since the author of the 1936 manual is from Shandong, directly North of Shanghai, and trained police in Zhejiang, directly South of Shanghai, it is possible that he was trained in or had access to the 1919 manual, but more info would be required using chinese sources to actually research this, which it is unclear occcured in the discussion, as no chinese sources are cited except the Cartmell reprint of the 1936 manual and the 1919 manual, in a completely separate discussion. It is possible that one or more of the posters was referencing more sources but did not cite them, it's a bit hard to tell.
Since I'm NOT going to try to research the history of the 1936 manual's author and his ties to Shanghai in Chinese sources, what I will do is take some time to compare the groundwork in the 1919 manual to similar groundwork in the 1936 manual. Despite the old pics in the 1936 manual, there are some distinctive points in most of the groundwork that are visible on lengthy enough perusal, they will likely be present in the 1919 manual's versions as well, if that was a primary source or the training there was. If there are differences, I'll try to list them so that people more familiar with judo can point out if that is merely a common variation in judo at the time.
SR, if you could point me to the discussion you're talking about, in case it's from a different source than what I'm looking at, that would be helpful.
If I have time, I'll see if I can find contact info for Mr.Cartmell, in case he is familiar with the topic.
KC Elbows
09-10-2010, 11:08 PM
I'm relieved to say that was not an involved process.
The techniques considered basic ground fighting techniques in the two manuals are not numerous. The 1919 manual, as was pointed out in the thread from Bullshido that is the only conversation on the topic in english I found, has less, which is in keeping with one poster's statement that the branch of judo that influenced it was not known for this.
The 1936 manual has a few more basic ground fighting techniques.
The common techniques have notable differences.
The 1919 manual from Shanghai seems consistent in approach, groundwork devoted mostly, as far as position, to being on the ground for that tech.
The 1936 techniques often utilize one foot planted or rooted, which would be consistent with a focus, right or wrong, of regaining a standing position after a break. Also, wherever possible, the body is upright to some extent(for instance, the armbar on the ground is not leening back to straighten the opponents arm, but torqued sideways at the waqist with the upper body upright to use the upper leg as a fulcrum to straighten it).
The fact that a good number of the ground techniques in the 1936 manual from Zhejiang are not present in any form in the 1919 manual, and the common moves being notably different, PROBABLY precludes the 1919 manual from having been the source.
It is still possible that the author of the 1936 manual was trained in Shanghai, but this does not explain the differences in every common ground technique found in both manuals.
Likewise, he could have trained judo under someone else, but lacking any source to suggest this, it would be conjecture.
Additionally, lacking a source providing compelling evidence that the author of the 1936 manual was lying about the manual being based on a manual provided by his grandfather, I'm not sure it's good research to simultaneously hold that common techniques occur in many regions AND he couldn't have access to an indigenous version, especially considering the loss of records that occured in China in the twentieth century.
The techniques in the 1936 manual are not presented as a ground fighting platform, in that their goal is not to facilitate a method on the ground. They are plainly presented as ways to restrain or harm someone in various positions, not often from a starting point of combat, but surprise, so that the criterion is if they are sitting unaware, lying unaware, walking past unaware, etc. The presentation is geared for police walking the streets wishing to arrest known suspects in many cases, and the approaches seem conservative in nature at times, from my limited understanding of ground work. Some few techs are responses to aggression, but many more relate to starting from the advantage of surprise.
Now, standing, there are a number of similar moves in both manuals, pretty much all of which are common qin na found in many kung fu styles, and tying people up.
I would be interested on feedback on this, especially those with access the book chin na fa. Below is the link to the 1919 manual.
http://judoinfo.com/pdf/Shanghai%20Police%20Self%20Defense.pdf
Again, SR, if you have other sites where more discussion is occuring on this, I'd be interested in seeing this.
These observations are cursory, and I'm not proficient at ground fighting, so feel free to correct me where I'm off.
KC Elbows
09-10-2010, 11:18 PM
I'll try, over the course of time, to rundown the ground techs common to both, and their apparent differences.
Don't let this interfere with the flamers' flaming.:D
YouKnowWho
09-10-2010, 11:27 PM
The police manual is used to arrest criminals. Most of the time, the criminal will not fight back that hard. My teacher wrote the police manual for Taiwan police many years ago. My senior SC brother David C. K. Lin is currently wriitting a new police manual for Taiwan police. IMO, there are far from the ground fight that we are talking about here.
Those clips that I posted in this thread was the training tape for Sionics, a prestigious Georgia-based Anti-terrorism school (similiar to police manual).
KC Elbows
09-10-2010, 11:30 PM
Here is another interesting discussion on the topic:
http://judoforum.com/index.php?/topic/41376-chinese-grappling-arts-historical-manuals/page__hl__tim%20cartmell
Several credible statements saying they doubt that there was a Chinese source.
I'd be interested to see what analysis of the techs in the 1936 manual suggests as far as what sort of judo, if judo, the techniques came from. I'll try to post links to pics, if possible, with some questions, if no one here minds.
KC Elbows
09-10-2010, 11:35 PM
The police manual is used to arrest criminals. Most of the time, the criminal will not fight back that hard. My teacher wrote the police manual for Taiwan police many years ago. My senior SC brother David C. K. Lin is currently wriitting a new police manual for Taiwan police. IMO, there are far from the ground fight that we are talking about here.
I understand, but the argument cited is that the groundwork from the manual is not from his grandfather's manual, but from judo(or, alternately, the 1919 Shanghai manual, or, alternately, from another judo source). I find some of the details of some moves interesting, so I'm curious to put names to moves, if they are judo, or, if they are variations not common to judo, that would be cool, too. Regardless, it would be interesting to learn names for the japanese versions, the bjj versions, etc, irrespective of the original source.
KC Elbows
09-10-2010, 11:57 PM
It's not my point to say "This is the Chinese answer tobjj and judo," or that, if had the time and money I wouldn't be in a judo class. I mess around with various holds and locks on the ground, and read what people in the know say about platforms for performing the moves, just in case I need it and because I think it's fun. I like the variations on some of the ground moves in that book, and I'd be interested in hearing the pros and cons of the tech, given that it still needs a delivery platform.
Like the arm bar I was talking about before: I'm familiar with the one on the ground where you lean back to lock the arm, but I found the one in that book interesting where, instead of leaning back, he stays upright and twists, forcing the arm straight by using the thigh on his bent right leg as a fulcrum while the left leg is, as normal, stretched across his opponent's upper body. Not being expert, I don't know the pros and cons, so it's good to discuss it with people who know more, and, imo, a better topic for discussion than the history of ground techniques in qin na when most of us aren't going to have the time to pore through sources in Chinese.
tiaji1983
09-11-2010, 01:22 AM
Hello everyone. I see people do not agree with my post about ground fighting in TCMA... Let me explain a little, and let me know what you think.
As far as Aikido being from Bagua. I based that on 2 things, a story I once heard and a video I seen. The video was on You tube. It was a video of the creator of Bagua as an old man. Appearantly he liked his students to sneak attack him to keep him on his toes and always on guard. The counters he done were DIRECTLY from Baguazhang. The story I heard was that he met and challenged a little short Chinaman. The Aikido guy had a katana and the Chinaman was unarmed. The Chinaman won a sound victory and agreed to teach the creator of Aikido. He taught him Baguazhang. Then he created Aikido from Bagua, and kept Bagua for himself. Is it true, I dont know, I wasnt there. But just to defend my post. ;)
As far as the Jiujitsu thing. :p I was in the Army when they phased out the old Jiujitsu they used to teach. The old style was Traditional Jiujitsu. It had standup, grappling, Qinna and ground fighting. It was based mostly off of Chinese Qinna theory of levers and hinges, and cavity presses and killing points. It had a very shallow external view of the cavity presses and killing points, but it did have them. The style was mostly using Qinna to seek and destroy. If you dont believe me, get someone in the army to print out the OLD Combatives manual. Then from that style, other styles developed such as BJJ and MMA, that developed from the experts of Traditional Jiujitsu's personal experiences, and incorporated more ground fighting. You can see the evidence of Chinese Qinna in the Traditional Jiu jitsu, but who knows, maybe Icould be wrong again. George forman invented a grill even though grills already existed....
Now as far as it being a ******* statement, didnt the Japanese modify the Chinese written language and call it thiers? Didnt Karate come from Shaolin White Crane? Wasnt Karate there in Japan before Jiujitsu? You wouldnt agree that Aikido has some similarities with Bagua? I dont know... maybe I am a ******* and Im reading too much into things...
As far as Qinna in ground fighting. I stated that in TCMA you can use Qinna, punches, and kicks on the ground. I never stated it could be used in a competition with rules and regulations, or that you would win 100% of the time against Jiujitsu and MMA with Qinna because it is "the best". I never made any outragous claims like that. I simply stated that in TCMA you can use that stuff on the ground. Qinna can be modified to use on the ground, and it can be used to counter a lot of things, so can kicks and punches and other strikes. You can also deflect, and redirect, etc... So your not useless once your on the ground, you do have some tools to your disposal. Why must people always break down posts so much and contort the words into something other than what is meant in the statement? I dont know. maybe I misspoke?...
Frost
09-11-2010, 11:11 AM
Hello everyone. I see people do not agree with my post about ground fighting in TCMA... Let me explain a little, and let me know what you think.
As far as Aikido being from Bagua. I based that on 2 things, a story I once heard and a video I seen. The video was on You tube. It was a video of the creator of Bagua as an old man. Appearantly he liked his students to sneak attack him to keep him on his toes and always on guard. The counters he done were DIRECTLY from Baguazhang. The story I heard was that he met and challenged a little short Chinaman. The Aikido guy had a katana and the Chinaman was unarmed. The Chinaman won a sound victory and agreed to teach the creator of Aikido. He taught him Baguazhang. Then he created Aikido from Bagua, and kept Bagua for himself. Is it true, I dont know, I wasnt there. But just to defend my post. ;)
As far as the Jiujitsu thing. :p I was in the Army when they phased out the old Jiujitsu they used to teach. The old style was Traditional Jiujitsu. It had standup, grappling, Qinna and ground fighting. It was based mostly off of Chinese Qinna theory of levers and hinges, and cavity presses and killing points. It had a very shallow external view of the cavity presses and killing points, but it did have them. The style was mostly using Qinna to seek and destroy. If you dont believe me, get someone in the army to print out the OLD Combatives manual. Then from that style, other styles developed such as BJJ and MMA, that developed from the experts of Traditional Jiujitsu's personal experiences, and incorporated more ground fighting. You can see the evidence of Chinese Qinna in the Traditional Jiu jitsu, but who knows, maybe Icould be wrong again. George forman invented a grill even though grills already existed....
Now as far as it being a ******* statement, didnt the Japanese modify the Chinese written language and call it thiers? Didnt Karate come from Shaolin White Crane? Wasnt Karate there in Japan before Jiujitsu? You wouldnt agree that Aikido has some similarities with Bagua? I dont know... maybe I am a ******* and Im reading too much into things...
As far as Qinna in ground fighting. I stated that in TCMA you can use Qinna, punches, and kicks on the ground. I never stated it could be used in a competition with rules and regulations, or that you would win 100% of the time against Jiujitsu and MMA with Qinna because it is "the best". I never made any outragous claims like that. I simply stated that in TCMA you can use that stuff on the ground. Qinna can be modified to use on the ground, and it can be used to counter a lot of things, so can kicks and punches and other strikes. You can also deflect, and redirect, etc... So your not useless once your on the ground, you do have some tools to your disposal. Why must people always break down posts so much and contort the words into something other than what is meant in the statement? I dont know. maybe I misspoke?...
so thats your indepth study of the subject, listening to a story and watching youtube....heres an idea actually do some reasearch on the subject first.
And heres another idea just because two things look the same its not to say they came from each other, grappling looks like grappling, theories and leverage are the same across various styles: indian wrestling looks like freestyle in its take downs, but you dont see people claiming the indians nicked it from the west, just because it looks the same and uses leverage in a similar way :rolleyes:
As for your original comment about everything coming from shaolin, again actually read some research dont get all your theories from youtube and jet lee movies you will find you it makes for a much better discussion :)
Like the arm bar I was talking about before: I'm familiar with the one on the ground where you lean back to lock the arm, but I found the one in that book interesting where, instead of leaning back, he stays upright and twists, forcing the arm straight by using the thigh on his bent right leg as a fulcrum while the left leg is, as normal, stretched across his opponent's upper body. Not being expert, I don't know the pros and cons, so it's good to discuss it with people who know more, and, imo, a better topic for discussion than the history of ground techniques in qin na when most of us aren't going to have the time to pore through sources in Chinese.
the reason why most locks work better on the ground, both of you, is because most of the time if you arent controlling the opponents body, the reversals and escapes are many... its pretty easy to escape an arm bar if the guy doesnt have your torso secured, you just roll out of it, and depending on the situation you can even end up in a more dominant position and possibly have a lock of your own in the counter... i would even go as far as saying its dangerous to try and secure any hold without full control against somebody who knows submission grappling... if you dont secure the opponent properly, he's just gonna reverse you and make you pay...
in grappling matches, ive given submissions up on purpose in order to set them up for a reversal which would give me dominant position and/or a submission of my own in return... building bridges so to speak...
Frost
09-11-2010, 11:23 AM
the reason why most locks work better on the ground, both of you, is because most of the time if you arent controlling the opponents body, the reversals and escapes are many... its pretty easy to escape an arm bar if the guy doesnt have your torso secured, you just roll out of it, and depending on the situation you can even end up in a more dominant position and possibly have a lock of your own in the counter... i would even go as far as saying its dangerous to try and secure any hold without full control against somebody who knows submission grappling... if you dont secure the opponent properly, he's just gonna reverse you and make you pay...
in grappling matches, ive given submissions up on purpose in order to set them up for a reversal which would give me dominant position and/or a submission of my own in return... building bridges so to speak...
nicely put :), as i said in previous posts you have to limit the opponents ability to move, everyone NOT trained properly in grappling looks at the finished position, but as you say its the control of the body that allows you to finish the locks, if you cant limit his movement he is gone and you are in a bad way
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