Push hands - what are the ins-n-outs?

[Yum Cha]

Anybody here know much about playing Push Hands?

I guess it comes from Tai Chi? There is a practice and a competition format?

What exactly are the rules? Can you pull as well as push?

thanks

[omarthefish]

What exactly are the rules? Can you pull as well as push?

lol. If you couldn't pull it would be a pretty stupid "game". :D

No real set rules. There's sort of a loose format but the only time there are specific rules is for competitions. As a training exercise the "rules" such as they are are kind of unwritten.

The most simple form is single hand which is where you and your partner just touch at the wrists and describe a circle in the air. Whenever you think the other person is vulnerable you can try to push them in the chest or pull them past behind you or otherwise throw then off balance. IMO, single hand push is actually the highest level of training. It's considered the most introductory because of its simplicity but I find that because the format is so limited, it really highlights some very taiji specific skills. When you go to the 2 hand or even freestyle format, it looks a lot more "fighty" but it also allows you to rely more on stuff that has nothing to do with Taijiquan.

Here's some pretty good looking single hand pushing:
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTIyOTk0MjQ=.html
http://video.sina.com.cn/v/b/14430209-1331519420.html


2 hand pushing:
http://video.sina.com.cn/v/b/14426517-1331519420.html

In this pattern, you have more to work with than just relaxation, roundness and redirection. You need to learn to habitually check your opponents elbow and wrist and the door is opened up for all sorts of throws and arm-locks. People add different footwork patterns and variations until you get something that looks like it would be at home in any MMA gym:

Chen Bing teaching freestyle suitable for cage fighting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIc5NIfrnJs

Here's a pretty nice step-by-step breakdown of many of the moves in a more formal way. The guy in the cage, Chen Bing, is using almost entirely stuff learned initially in a style sort of like this clip which features his own teacher (and family relation too) Chen Xiaowang:
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XODUxMTg4NTI=.html

[wiz cool c]

Yeah I can answer for you. Push hands comes from Tai Chi yes, there are patterns, with set movements that teach you to stick and listen and nutrilize and some other skills that are specific to tai chi, Then there is free style, which might come to a surprise that alot of tai chi an internal practioners don't even practice. This comes in the form of fixed step, restricted step and moving push hands.

In fixed step you take a stance and can't move you feet. if a play makes you move or lose your balance he got you, ristricted step is the same ,but you can do one shuffle step foward and one shuffle step backward, In a tournament, they have this format, i have done 3 of this kind,and 1 minute each side left and right, with time out for point calling, a match takes about 4 minutes, her is me doing this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nibKCMtayZM . you can't grab in push hands, you can kind of cup the hand without using the thumb or use a thumb index open finger control,but no closed finger grabs.

Moving is like sumo match. also no grabbing. It is very strenuous to play this game, and I once tore ligaments in my knee doing this kind of pushing in a tournament. The short comming are, you can't grab, usally can't sweep or throw. To be honest since I got into Judo and shuai jiao, i have pretty much given up push hand, why restrict yourself in such a way. I like being able to say put on a jacket an go do what you can to get me down. Not teach don't do this, stop when you do this. do only this.

[omarthefish]

The short comming are, you can't grab, usally can't sweep or throw. To be honest since I got into Judo and shuai jiao, i have pretty much given up push hand, why restrict yourself in such a way.

That is a totally western phenomenon.

Check out the link I posted above of Chen Bing teaching freestyle push hands to what look like MMA students.

Or check out this fairly tame comp in China:
http://v.ku6.com/show/OjedUm000-PeN2K7.html

In China the rules are usually just that you can't grab (as you described) buy you can hook. You usually can't hook the neck or use your hands to hook the legs but legs attacking legs have been in almost every comp I've watched. In Chinese push hands comps, thowing and sweeping are as common as rice is at the lunch table.

[wiz cool c]

[QUOTE=omarthefish;1036707]That is a totally western phenomenon.

intersting, cause i have been living and training in china for over 4 years now:)

[lkfmdc]

Have friends VERY into push hands, and the rules range widely from event to event. In fact, in helping them get ready it's a major pain

[omarthefish]

That is a totally western phenomenon.

intersting, cause i have been living and training in china for over 4 years now:)

I guess our experiences just differ. I've been living and training in China for 10 years now.

I guess coach Ross summed it up best. Event vary wildly which is why I initially posted that:

No real set rules. There's sort of a loose format but the only time there are specific rules is for competitions.

I've never seen fixed step competition over here. Just seen it on youtube. Most of what I have seen looked little different from Shuai Jiao competitions.

In my training with Shifu almost everything goes. Sweeps, throws, hooking the legs or neck. Only grabbing is off limits although you are always welcome to try but that just gets you joint locked in a real painful way. But that's training, not competition. In training there's no real "rules" because the goal is different. The goal is more abstract. The goal is to "apply Taiji principles and techniques in a non-cooperative format". If both parties are really sticking to Taijiquan in a strict way, the result is push-hands, push hands that includes pushing, pulling, sweeping, throwing, locking, knee strikes, some punching and lots of locking. The most distinctive aspect is that there is continual contact between parties. It ends up being a bit like the legal definition of porn. In the words of Former Justice of the Supreme Court Potter Stewart:


"I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced…but I know it when I see it…

lol :D

[wiz cool c]

in my experience i have seen nothing but patterns an a goofy semi free style exercise. i haven't really been looking though. and i did push freestyle with my current teacher for about 5 minutes one time ,and that was fun.

[Syn7]

That is a totally western phenomenon.

Check out the link I posted above of Chen Bing teaching freestyle push hands to what look like MMA students.

Or check out this fairly tame comp in China:
http://v.ku6.com/show/OjedUm000-PeN2K7.html

In China the rules are usually just that you can't grab (as you described) buy you can hook. You usually can't hook the neck or use your hands to hook the legs but legs attacking legs have been in almost every comp I've watched. In Chinese push hands comps, thowing and sweeping are as common as rice is at the lunch table.

so he quit cause of his shoulder???? after all that i was happy to see the two teamates(they were teamates ya?) go against eachother and how low they got on eachother im thinking, oh this might take a minute... then he quit... too bad...

anyways, the throws and sweeps were nice, very subtle and gentle for the most part... but those pushes, omg, thats ill... i would love to feel what thats like on the recieving end... ive done push hands, but im not that good at it... i only started learning yang forms recently... something to work towards forsure...

so if thats a "tame" event, show me a rough and brutal one... please?

[Syn7]

Here's some pretty good looking single hand pushing:
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTIyOTk0MjQ=.html
http://video.sina.com.cn/v/b/14430209-1331519420.html


2 hand pushing:
http://video.sina.com.cn/v/b/14426517-1331519420.html

In this pattern, you have more to work with than just relaxation, roundness and redirection. You need to learn to habitually check your opponents elbow and wrist and the door is opened up for all sorts of throws and arm-locks. People add different footwork patterns and variations until you get something that looks like it would be at home in any MMA gym:

Chen Bing teaching freestyle suitable for cage fighting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIc5NIfrnJs

Here's a pretty nice step-by-step breakdown of many of the moves in a more formal way. The guy in the cage, Chen Bing, is using almost entirely stuff learned initially in a style sort of like this clip which features his own teacher (and family relation too) Chen Xiaowang:
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XODUxMTg4NTI=.html

these examples are amazing...

do they react that way, the whole jump up and down shaking their hand, because they were shocked? like the healers can do? it doesnt look like your average reaction from being pushed... like chen bing pushes, you go flying into a wall... this chicca pushes and you jump up and down like u hit ur finger with a hammer??? whats the deal there...

i love the chen bing vids tho, he's going up against guys that can actually grapple, and you can see they cant push or pull him, despite the huge weight difference, then he sends them into the wall...



im convinced of chi thru personal experiences, but you gotta understand how somebody would look at this and think its fake, or the guys are taking dives to make the other look good... i would love to feel this myself...

[taai gihk yahn]

im convinced of chi thru personal experiences
as in, you breathe in and out, your nerves conduct electrical impulses to your muscles and other structures, your connective tissue system creates body-wide continuity of ground reaction force, your heart pumps blood out to the perifery, your venus and lymphatic system return fliud to the core, your metabolism generates heat, your digestive system converts food to energy, your endocrine system operates under various circadian rhythms and your autonomic nervous system mediates your stress and relaxation responses? well, yes, that would be a "personal experience";

there is nothing encompassing the metaphor of "chi" that does not occur within the normal function of human physiology; it is therefore not something to be convinced of, or demonstrated as some "force' beyond that; it is not some "separate", "other", "special" thing that you shoot out of your fingertips; "chi" is a metaphorical descriptor for the normal function of the human organism that was developed in absence of the capacity for direct observation of many physiological processes (e.g. - cellular respiration); all the stuff people claim to experience as "special" can be explained fairly straightforwardly by contemporary knowledge, including all of the seemingly odd effects that so-called healers exhibit;

the crazy stuff seen on the videos is a combination of entrainement and cultural coding: people jump up and down like monkeys because a) they want to be part of something extraordinary and so they are pre-programmed to be compliant and open to "suggestion"; b) they are told that doing this helps to dissipate the negative effects on their "chi" by being manipulated and so do it more consciously, adding to the effect; c) they are culturally programmed to make their teacher look good

[YouKnowWho]

Only grabbing is off limits although you are always welcome to try but that just gets you joint locked in a real painful way.
Omar, how can any Taiji guy be able to develop his joint locking if "grabbing" is off limits in PH?

How can you train your "小纏絲(Xiao Chan Si) - small circle wrist lock" if you don't allow your opponent to grab on your wrist? How can you train your counter for "小纏絲(Xiao Chan Si) - small circle wrist lock" if you don't grab on your opponent's wrist first?

[Syn7]

the crazy stuff seen on the videos is a combination of entrainement and cultural coding: people jump up and down like monkeys because a) they want to be part of something extraordinary and so they are pre-programmed to be compliant and open to "suggestion"; b) they are told that doing this helps to dissipate the negative effects on their "chi" by being manipulated and so do it more consciously, adding to the effect; c) they are culturally programmed to make their teacher look good

thats unfortunate... the chen bing vid leaves no doubt as to whats happening... the other ones are open to skepticism... you here people swear by it, but you just have to try it yourself to be sure...


yeah, my original understanding of energy was from a buddhist perspective... then i learned more from martial arts... so i came into chinese philosophy thru chinese boxing, but i already had an indian understanding thru other endeavors... i'll never forget the first time i had been tossed alot further than the effort would have suggested... everyone here has their own experiences with it... it opens up a whole new world as far as martial arts is concerned... well in general, i spose...

[Syn7]

there is nothing encompassing the metaphor of "chi" that does not occur within the normal function of human physiology; it is therefore not something to be convinced of, or demonstrated as some "force' beyond that; it is not some "separate", "other", "special" thing that you shoot out of your fingertips; "chi" is a metaphorical descriptor for the normal function of the human organism that was developed in absence of the capacity for direct observation of many physiological processes (e.g. - cellular respiration); all the stuff people claim to experience as "special" can be explained fairly straightforwardly by contemporary knowledge, including all of the seemingly odd effects that so-called healers exhibit;

you know, i had a conversation about this recently... this cat was going on about shaolin are cultists that suck in stupid people wiyth their so called mystical carny tricks... so, many years ago i read this book called the tao of physics by fritjof capra and since then ive read anything i could find on drawing paralells between modern physics and eastern mysticism... some, not all... i tried to explain it from that perspective to the guy but he wasnt having it, he already made up his mind, i shouldnt have bothered... but so many people define chi as this mystical life energy... they take words from old sources at face value without considering the time difference and the limited words they had to describe their observations from our perspectives... we use a whole new language to define the natural world... they dont see scientific words so they assume its something its not... its really hard to get people to think outside of the limitations theyve already imposed on themselves... nothing worse than someone who wont admit when they are wrong, or maybe just not as far along as they think they are... i am forever a student and im wrong all the time and im willing to listen to what others have to say... its frustrating to conversate with people who arent that way... whats worse, is its frustrating when i catch myself acting that way too, getting sucked into other peoples bull****...

so, has anyone here been shocked by somebody with thier hands??? not including the peter griffin style static shock:D

[taai gihk yahn]

thats unfortunate... the chen bing vid leaves no doubt as to whats happening... the other ones are open to skepticism... you here people swear by it, but you just have to try it yourself to be sure...
no argument w the Chen Bing stuff - although his opponent doesn't seem to be fully resisting, the technique is solid, what he does is reasonable and high percentage - and happens to look a lot less like the magical taiji we see and more like what you see from other systems with a clear understanding of the range


yeah, my original understanding of energy was from a buddhist perspective...
what sort of Buddhist perspective was that?


then i learned more from martial arts... so i came into chinese philosophy thru chinese boxing, but i already had an indian understanding thru other endeavors...
one can get pretty much the same effects from yogic practice as you can w/qigong to a degree, then it starts to diverge somewhat;


i'll never forget the first time i had been tossed alot further than the effort would have suggested... everyone here has their own experiences with it... it opens up a whole new world as far as martial arts is concerned... well in general, i spose...
I think that it's very hard to qualify that sort of thing - for example, if one is even a little bit compliant as the "throwee", it radically alters the degree of effort required by the "thrower" - decline to participate at the same juncture and you get nothing ; at the same time, you can see high level judo players use relatively little effort to throw someone who is fully resisting because of how they set them up, no magic involved...
also, what we agree to subscribe to as youthful novitiates in the arts may b very different from what we go along with after having some time in them...

[omarthefish]

so he quit cause of his shoulder???? after all that i was happy to see the two teamates(they were teamates ya?) go against eachother and how low they got on eachother im thinking, oh this might take a minute... then he quit... too bad...
I didn't see anything in the description of the clip to indicate that they were team mates. I think they were just good sportsman.


anyways, the throws and sweeps were nice, very subtle and gentle for the most part...
[snip]

so if thats a "tame" event, show me a rough and brutal one... please?
That's what I meant by "tame". I didn't watch it to the end so I didn't realize it got livelier as it went on. I just saw the first few techniques which seemed, as you put it, "subtle and gentle". I've seen some stuff out of Chen village that looked more just like someone took Judo and disallowed gi-grips.

p.s. Wow. It really did get better as it went on. :)

[omarthefish]

these examples are amazing...

do they react that way, the whole jump up and down shaking their hand, because they were shocked? like the healers can do? it doesnt look like your average reaction from being pushed... .

I assume you are referring to the fist couple of clips. No. Not shocked. If you watch carefully, you can see that they got wrist locked. That's why they fly back so weird. It's just single hand so it's hard to get a good push off someones arm. Sometimes what happens is when one person pushed, the receiver seizes that moment of tension, changes the angle on the point of contact so the wrist is locked up and pushes back into it. Then you get a person flying away ****her because they are suddenly cooperating with you as their body instinctively leaps away from the pain of the lock.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Depends what you mean by shocked. For me personally, through the arms:

Electric shock? No.

Shocked like being shot in the palm of the hand by compressed air from 2 ft away? No.

Shocked like a kick from shotgun? Yes.

Shocked like having a huge dog suddenly tug you? Yes.

[omarthefish]

Omar, how can any Taiji guy be able to develop his joint locking if "grabbing" is off limits in PH?

How can you train your "小纏絲(Xiao Chan Si) - small circle wrist lock" if you don't allow your opponent to grab on your wrist? How can you train your counter for "小纏絲(Xiao Chan Si) - small circle wrist lock" if you don't grab on your opponent's wrist first?

Like was mentioned earlier grabbing is not allowed but hooking is. Maybe in Chinese it's clearer. You can 拿, just not 抓.

The best example of how a lock can be completely locked on that I can think of that everyone will understand is an arm bar. Leg across the persons front. Arms can be holding on to the wrist, hips up. If everythingthing is in place, there is no need to grab onto the arm with your fingers. Just hooking it with both hands and pulling back is enough.

[taai gihk yahn]

I assume you are referring to the fist couple of clips. No. Not shocked. If you watch carefully, you can see that they got wrist locked. That's why they fly back so weird. It's just single hand so it's hard to get a good push off someones arm. Sometimes what happens is when one person pushed, the receiver seizes that moment of tension, changes the angle on the point of contact so the wrist is locked up and pushes back into it. Then you get a person flying away ****her because they are suddenly cooperating with you as their body instinctively leaps away from the pain of the lock.
the only thing I would say is that even if they were wrist locked, that the manner in which they were engaged predisposed them to get into that position - in other words, there was a degree of compliance that informed their movements - qualitatively, they were going with the flow, so to speak, and were directed into that position; now, IMPO, there is actually nothing wrong with that per se, but what I have issue w/is the pretense - in other words, thinking that it was the teacher's skill alone that enabled the outcome is deceptive - rather, it's more like a free-fow version of aikido - it is an interraction predicated on agreement that certain things will not occur - for example, the kind of movement quality that would make doing a wrist lock from that position basically impossible;


Depends what you mean by shocked. For me personally, through the arms:

Electric shock? No.

Shocked like being shot in the palm of the hand by compressed air from 2 ft away? No.

Shocked like a kick from shotgun? Yes.

Shocked like having a huge dog suddenly tug you? Yes.
well qualified

[omarthefish]

the only thing I would say is that even if they were wrist locked, that the manner in which they were engaged predisposed them to get into that position - in other words, there was a degree of compliance that informed their movements - qualitatively, they were going with the flow, so to speak, and were directed into that position; now, IMPO, there is actually nothing wrong with that per se, but what I have issue w/is the pretense - in other words, thinking that it was the teacher's skill alone that enabled the outcome is deceptive - rather, it's more like a free-fow version of aikido - it is an interraction predicated on agreement that certain things will not occur - for example, the kind of movement quality that would make doing a wrist lock from that position basically impossible;

Well he's not applying a wrist lock in the usual way. He's not grabbing the wrist and twisting it. He's waiting for the other person to attempt to push and then changing the receiving angle to that the persons wrist (and arm) gets locked up which means that when he pushes back they are not able to relax their arm and their own arm becomes a big spring board.

OTOH, I get what you are saying and did not initially want to show a clip that dramatic but there is a real dearth of single hand pushing exercises on the web. I think it's because most people, as I mentioned in my first post, underestimate the use of the exercise. Here's a clip that is more instructional and really breaks down what more
typically happens and seems to be free of any of such suspect, overly dramatic stuff:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtQgzQwrzpI

OTOOH....the both of them are is setting himself up for that same sort of wrist locking on pretty much every push. It's an annoying detail I see in most push hands and easily corrected. Don't know why no one seems aware of it.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Here's a clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lqQ4f6YIrQ) of my friend and I playing around with Qin Na. It's not the most exemplary vid for many reasons (including size difference,) but it demonstrates a few things nicely.

When we did this, we basically included submissions into the push hands rules. There's some experimenting and goofing off that occurs, but there's valuable info in analyzing that, too.

We were both tired and drenched with sweat, which made it very hard to perform the grasps and locks. Even so, you will see a few locks emerge:

The first lock is performed @ ~7 seconds by him and was similar to "Wrist Press" as seen on page 106 of Yang Jwing Ming's "Shaolin Qin Na."

The second lock is performed @ ~2:30 by me and was similar to "Reverse wrist press" as seen on page 260 of the manual.

The third lock was performed @ ~3:50 by me and was similar to a large elbow wrap as seen on page 204 of the manual.

The fourth and final lock was performed @ ~6:30 by him and was similar to "Send the devil to heaven" as seen throughout the manual.

Notably, most of the locks were wrist locks (including "send the devil to heaven.")

NONE of the locks were separate finger locks. Only "send the devil to heaven" locked all the fingers at once.

Note: we haven't been practicing from the manual, I'm just using it as a reference because it's widely available.

[Yum Cha]

Thanks for the info. I'll work my way through the vids.

From a competition point of view, it seems to channel a bit of sumo.

What I like about it is the commitment and body weight you have to put into it.

[Syn7]

it will be interesting to see what comes of the whole chinese mma thing... its only a matter of time before kungfu works its way in there, more than it already has anyways...


what sort of Buddhist perspective was that?

mahayana at first, it was my first experience with meditation, learning about chakras etc... but then my reading went all over the place... at first it was just interesting... then alot of it started making sense... i dont consider myself a buddhist tho... i dont have a label in that respect... always learning...

you could draw paralells between yoga and qigong forsure...

i dont like how some people view chi as something magical...

has anyone read the tao of physics??? its a great jumpoff point for anyone interested in physics and chi... although it goes into alot more than chi...

[Syn7]

I didn't see anything in the description of the clip to indicate that they were team mates. I think they were just good sportsman.

That's what I meant by "tame". I didn't watch it to the end so I didn't realize it got livelier as it went on. I just saw the first few techniques which seemed, as you put it, "subtle and gentle". I've seen some stuff out of Chen village that looked more just like someone took Judo and disallowed gi-grips.

p.s. Wow. It really did get better as it went on. :)

oh they were just dressed the same... it was an assumption based on very little evidence :D

anymore clips of push hand comps, throw em up...




I assume you are referring to the fist couple of clips. No. Not shocked. If you watch carefully, you can see that they got wrist locked. That's why they fly back so weird. It's just single hand so it's hard to get a good push off someones arm. Sometimes what happens is when one person pushed, the receiver seizes that moment of tension, changes the angle on the point of contact so the wrist is locked up and pushes back into it. Then you get a person flying away ****her because they are suddenly cooperating with you as their body instinctively leaps away from the pain of the lock.

yeah the first ones... i cant really see the hands very well... their reactions just looked odd to me...

[Syn7]

Depends what you mean by shocked. For me personally, through the arms:

Electric shock? No.

Shocked like being shot in the palm of the hand by compressed air from 2 ft away? No.

Shocked like a kick from shotgun? Yes.

Shocked like having a huge dog suddenly tug you? Yes.

you know that shock feeling you get when from being poked in a nerve, thats what i meant... from some sort of grip or something... i dunno, thats why i asked:D

[Xiao3 Meng4]

you know that shock feeling you get when from being poked in a nerve, thats what i meant... from some sort of grip or something... i dunno, thats why i asked:D


Sure, it's possible - if your opponent isn't wriggling like a fish, flailing like a badger and his pain perception is in a non-combat state.

When's that gonna be useful? I mean it might be, but I think a lock puts more pressure on the nerves than a "nerve strike."

[Syn7]

Sure, it's possible - if your opponent isn't wriggling like a fish, flailing like a badger and his pain perception is in a non-combat state.

When's that gonna be useful? I mean it might be, but I think a lock puts more pressure on the nerves than a "nerve strike."

my sifu hit me in the neck awhile ago, not very hard, to illustrate a point and i got that shock down my side and even numbed a bit... it wasnt any sort of dim mak thing, just a chop...

im not into dim mak, its hard enough to hit somebody clean, let alone do precision strike to some nerve... im just using the example to illustrate what i meant by shock... i dont know what else to call that...

but in bjj i always use the 'squeeze and twist' motion, and that has that effect sometimes... esspecially in the wrists... u dig in to make them react in order to exploit their reaction...

[taai gihk yahn]

it will be interesting to see what comes of the whole chinese mma thing... its only a matter of time before kungfu works its way in there, more than it already has anyways...
it wil happen; china is good at jumping on whatever bandwagon is playing the oudest and mst popular tune (e.g. - Olympic sports - I mean, they went from nowhere to world class in diving)


mahayana at first, it was my first experience with meditation, learning about chakras etc... but then my reading went all over the place... at first it was just interesting... then alot of it started making sense...
yeh, I kno that feeling, lol


i dont consider myself a buddhist tho... i dont have a label in that respect... always learning...
if u took refuge, u r a Buddhist; if u didn't, then you are, technically, not; it doesn't really matter one way or the other, of course, it's just a clear cut way of delineating things; I mean, this is their own internal qualification, but they certainly don't treat u better or worse one way or the other


you could draw paralells between yoga and qigong forsure...
considering how much stuff in TCMA was ripped off from yogic practice? sure thing!


i dont like how some people view chi as something magical...
some people are not very good Buddhists, and as such need to change reality to suit their projections...


has anyone read the tao of physics??? its a great jumpoff point for anyone interested in physics and chi... although it goes into alot more than chi...
<groan>; TBH, I blame Kapra as much as I do anyone for the misue of "qi" by people who have no idea about physics or taoism - problem is, his book legitimized the viewpoint of "oh, particle physics? yeh, the Taoists had that all figured out 3,000 years ago and did it without any fancy experiments, and also do a better job of describing it", which many people use as justification for dismissing contemporary scientific thot as either incomplete, derivative or both as compared to Taoist practice, without actually knowing much about either! fact is, the Taoists had NO IDEA about quantum physics per se; what they did "know", based on how they observed the natural world around them, was that from a morphogentic perspective, there was repetition and redundancy across the spectrum in terms of macro reflecting micro - which is really nothing more profound than looking at a piece of broccoli, a human lung, a tree and a river delta and going, "gee, those all kinda look alike...hmmmmm" (and now we have fractal geometry to explain all that); in other words, quantum theory is visually described using models based on our experience of the physical world, what we "know" - but in "reality", it is a theory of probabilities, that can really only be explained mathematically - in "reality" at the level that quantum theory operates, u actually can't use concrete imagery to describe it - so the description becomes a metaphor; and since a lot of Taoist practice is also based on metaphor, and because human experience is pretty uniform across cultures and time, in terms of how we experience the physical (and in a sense finite) world, you are going to get a lot of similarities - for example, when we look at "natural" movement, we see a lot of 3-dimensional movement - essentially, spirals; and when people move spontaneously, such as in Taoist shamanic practice, u see a lot of spirals - like in sea shells, and in tree growth and in DNA - so wait - the Taoists MUST have known about DNA as well, because of all those spirals they danced in! see what I'm getting at here? the "truth" of life is this: spontaneous rediscovery of fundamental principles, of things such as they are - and there is your applied Buddhism 101; in other words, correlation and causality are two different things - but Kapra drew the parallels and then drew conclusions based on his own internal subjective issues (if I recall correctly, it's been over 15 yrs since I picked that book up) - so while the comparisons are cool, the conclusions do a disservice to both Taoist practice and particle physics: I mean, have u ever looked at some of the equations, or the machinery, the level of technical complexity involved in atom smashing? how could some guy 2,000 yrs ago, living in a hole up the side of a mountain have ANY concept of what that involves? at the same time, he did experience the same world as a physicist living today, so of course there will be similarities, as both of these men were / are by their nature looking into the fundamental nature of things! and as such, the way the ask the question and frame the answer will be based on that common human experience on a certain level;
just my 2¢...

[Syn7]

yeah i had some issues with the book too... esspecially the whole dance of shiva section... but the book did open my mind to certain concepts as real world stuff and took my head out of the clouds a bit... after i read that book i read this massive article on fractals... i wish i still had it, i cant even remember the name and i wont try to explain its hypothisis but my point is that it was a sequence in a chain of events that started, in part, by the tao of physics... when i was like 17, i lived in two worlds and had no tether between the two... slowly but surely those realities needed to come together... not that im satisfied with where im at today, but im not at all what i was either, as far as bringing spiritual curiosities and real world life together... i dont imagine it will take some sort of epiphany to sync the two completely... one day i'll just be like "oh, nice"... :D


and just becoz stupid people read it and think "oh he's credable, he has fancy titles, it must be true" doesnt make it his fault... i heard afterward he teemed up with a christian priest to do some work... never checked it out, kinda had moved on by then...

[taai gihk yahn]

yeah i had some issues with the book too... esspecially the whole dance of shiva section... but the book did open my mind to certain concepts as real world stuff and took my head out of the clouds a bit... after i read that book i read this massive article on fractals... i wish i still had it, i cant even remember the name and i wont try to explain its hypothisis but my point is that it was a sequence in a chain of events that started, in part, by the tao of physics... when i was like 17, i lived in two worlds and had no tether between the two... slowly but surely those realities needed to come together... not that im satisfied with where im at today, but im not at all what i was either, as far as bringing spiritual curiosities and real world life together... i dont imagine it will take some sort of epiphany to sync the two completely... one day i'll just be like "oh, nice"... :D


and just becoz stupid people read it and think "oh he's credable, he has fancy titles, it must be true" doesnt make it his fault... i heard afterward he teemed up with a christian priest to do some work... never checked it out, kinda had moved on by then...

hey, I hear ya - when i first read it, I was like "way cool", so as an "eye opener", it has definite value, as far as drawing parallels (another book "Sensitive Chaos" by Theodor Schwenk does the same thing on a more macro level - definietly a neat book to check out), but IMPO one must be careful not to fall into the sort of "spiritual elitism" that I myself was a purveyor of for many years, looking down on "modern" science as being vastly inferior to Taoist practice, without having really an understanding of either; and I still only have limited knowledge of each, but I am not so reactionary now as I once was - I try to discern out things as such compared to things such as I would like them to be...

[omarthefish]

Freestyle push hands competition from Chen village:
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzM4ODUzOTI=.html

This is the sort of thing that made me say the other clip was "a bit tame". ;)

Some very detailed teaching going on here:
http://www.56.com/u88/v_NTQxODU2Mzc.html

Same guy as above in a short clip where he's locking the wrists in the way I was trying to describe before but you can see his hands clearly in this one because he's teaching rather than demonstrating: http://www.56.com/u89/v_MzcyNzg0NjI.html

edit:
I think this clip shows it even better and with more power. The guy would totally be flying back except that sometimes the teacher holds onto him:
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTcwMzc1MTY0.html

How about a really nice little instructional on standard 2 hand push and several of the typical applications that flow out of it? It's in Chinese but it's still pretty clear if you open your eyes and watch cafefully:
http://www.56.com/u95/v_MTI1OTk2NjA.html

[wiz cool c]

Mario the only american guy who competed in and won the Chen Village push hands competition told me once ,while training at an open push hands group,"just train in judo". Here is a guy who competed against and won against the best,saying just train judo. Again since I have been living here.training in china for over four years I have done only bagua,shuai jiao and hung chuan,No push hands or tai chi training. But i did go and check out a Chen style teacher at the beging of my stay And in a two hour class they did about two minute of free style fixed step push hands. I talked to one of the students and he told me once in a while they do the moving push hands whith the circle. That to me is the problem with the internal arts and resistence work, they do thing once in a while. There is no consitancy in their training.Nore is there a systematic method of training.

In my shuai Jiao training in beijing,we spared every lesson, and hard and for a long time. on my first lesson I spared the teacher for about 20 minutes. on my second lesson I spared one of his top students.I also see no value to training without grabs. It is a bad habit. In the real world people grab.people throw and sweep.if you train in push hands cause you love it and it is part of your style then fine, but i do feel it is a short comming.

[ShaolinDan]

Thanks Omar. Those are some great vids. Nice illustrations of skill progression and what it really means to be 'high-level.'

[Syn7]

Mario the only american guy who competed in and won the Chen Village push hands competition told me once ,while training at an open push hands group,"just train in judo". Here is a guy who competed against and won against the best,saying just train judo. Again since I have been living here.training in china for over four years I have done only bagua,shuai jiao and hung chuan,No push hands or tai chi training. But i did go and check out a Chen style teacher at the beging of my stay And in a two hour class they did about two minute of free style fixed step push hands. I talked to one of the students and he told me once in a while they do the moving push hands whith the circle. That to me is the problem with the internal arts and resistence work, they do thing once in a while. There is no consitancy in their training.Nore is there a systematic method of training.

In my shuai Jiao training in beijing,we spared every lesson, and hard and for a long time. on my first lesson I spared the teacher for about 20 minutes. on my second lesson I spared one of his top students.I also see no value to training without grabs. It is a bad habit. In the real world people grab.people throw and sweep.if you train in push hands cause you love it and it is part of your style then fine, but i do feel it is a short comming.

even tho its turned into a bit of a sport, i was under the impression that push hands original purpose isnt to be a good grappler... i didnt think it was the end all acheivement in taiji... just a part of a bigger program... for practicing a few particular skills... im no expert, when i first saw it i thought to myself, "a first dan judoka could clear this room" but i was told i wasnt looking at it the right way... my goals werent the same as their goals... and their goals take time to truly understand... at first i brushed it off, whatever, people always say that "u dont get us and u have to be us to get us" but then it sunk in later on when i had some more experiences with it...

the first push hands i ever saw was pretty low level for all but like 3 seniors, and they were pretty rough... but later on i saw some rules that were alot different, no throws or grabing etc... hooking pulling pushing, that was it, and it was my understanding that this was more what it was supposed to be... again, i dunno tho... i find this thread pretty interesting, at the school im learning random stuff from the "ancients in the back" when i go early and im starting to really enjoy it... the slower you go the stronger you need to be, mistakes cant be hidden at all... its a very honest art in that respect... unlike these guys that go ape**** and claim to have done this and that but it was so fast, who knows sometimes...

[taai gihk yahn]

Same guy as above in a short clip where he's locking the wrists in the way I was trying to describe before b

ok, I get what u r saying as regards a wrist lock w/out twisting the wrist;

it's similar to both ikyu and nikyu in aikido, although there are some differences as far as what's ultimately being locked as well as how the move is finished; personally, I like to call it a forearm lock vs a wrist lock; in fact, to be more precise, you are spiral-binding the interosseous membrane of the forearm - what's happening is that you are manipulating the membrane btw ulna and radius in such a way that you are taking up all available degrees of freedom three-dimensionally (stacking, is what they call this in osteopathy, which is one way of treating this membrane), and then sending a linear force up the long axis of the forearm, but doing it while the forearm is twisted - as such, it has no capacity to accommodate locally, and therefore has to go up to the elbow / shoulder in order to do so; this is why you can get such an abrupt response through the whole system by a small movement;

of course, to some degree there is still compliance going on as the easiest "solution" is to just let go with your hand, and the problem is solved; which underscores the idea that this lock cannot occur if there is no grab;

that said, I appreciate the mechanics of what is being show in detail - in fact, the way the teacher uses his fingers in a "tiled roof" configuration is an important part of this - very similar to what BP Chan used to show (and this technique was one he spent a great deal of time on, at least in my limited time with him);

[omarthefish]

to be more precise, you are spiral-binding the interosseous membrane of the forearm - what's happening is that you are manipulating the membrane btw ulna and radius in such a way that you are taking up all available degrees of freedom three-dimensionally (stacking, is what they call this in osteopathy, which is one way of treating this membrane), and then sending a linear force up the long axis of the forearm, but doing it while the forearm is twisted - as such, it has no capacity to accommodate locally, and therefore has to go up to the elbow / shoulder in order to do so; this is why you can get such an abrupt response through the whole system by a small movement;
ding!ding!ding! We have a winner.

Yes. That is exactly what happens.

of course, to some degree there is still compliance going on as the easiest "solution" is to just let go with your hand, and the problem is solved;
Easier said than done. The timing is just incredible. The guy applying the technique needs to wait for the other persons attack. IMO, this is a classic example of "borrowing force". The technique does not work unless the other person is trying to push you back. If he just lays his hand gently on your forearm, you have nothing to work with. It's one of the strange little details of the Taiji qin na I have learned so far. The other person has to be trying to do something to you for most of them to work.


which underscores the idea that this lock cannot occur if there is no grab;

They don't have to grab. Just trying to push you is enough. It all happens so fast. In the vids I posted that show it clearly, the old guy is teaching so everything is slowed down. He is intentionally making the dynamic more clear by doing it in slow motion.

Incidentally I was just arguing elsewhere that grabbing makes you vulnerable to qin na. This little idea is a classic example. :)

[KC Elbows]

Digging some of the clips in this thread. Nice to see you around, Omar!

[sanjuro_ronin]

I've noticed that when people try to grab me or push me that they can't do it when I punch them in the face real hard.
I also noticed that their ability to "sense" and read me doesn't work when my fist makes contact with their face.

[David Jamieson]

I've noticed that when people try to grab me or push me that they can't do it when I punch them in the face real hard.
I also noticed that their ability to "sense" and read me doesn't work when my fist makes contact with their face.

How will you ever comprehend the soft then? lol :p

anyway, PH is namby pamby crap. I hate it. It's a good exercise in the beginning to understand listening skills, but when it's taken to the ludicrous levels that it is, well that's where it becomes the utter shyte that it is. I guess if you use it as some form of isometric exercise that would maybe benefit a little bit. That's about the only way I use it if I use it at all anymore.

either box or wrestle already, or both. Push hands is a teaching tool at the front end of the learning path.

people who don't know how to or don't have the guts to fight substitute PH in that place. Talk about sliding down that slippery slope. No benefit after beginners understanding is achieved.

[KC Elbows]

I've noticed that when people try to grab me or push me that they can't do it when I punch them in the face real hard.

You are wrong. The reality is that their self destructive chi is manifested in a way that their self loathing over not having worked outside of bridge range is manifested by using their chi subconsciously to control you and punch themselves in the face. As such, they are able to learn.


I also noticed that their ability to "sense" and read me doesn't work when my fist makes contact with their face.

Again, you're theories are merely the offhand remarks of a glorified kickboxer. You are Canadian. Their attempts to read you are clearly thrown off by their inability to translate into French and english. Additionally, the subtleties of parliamentary politics throw off many a normally useful technique!

[sanjuro_ronin]

You are wrong. The reality is that their self destructive chi is manifested in a way that their self loathing over not having worked outside of bridge range is manifested by using their chi subconsciously to control you and punch themselves in the face. As such, they are able to learn.



Again, you're theories are merely the offhand remarks of a glorified kickboxer. You are Canadian. Their attempts to read you are clearly thrown off by their inability to translate into French and english. Additionally, the subtleties of parliamentary politics throw off many a normally useful technique!

*kicks empty can*
Fine...
http://www.babeskickass.com/pics/hot-latina-ass.jpg

[KC Elbows]

How will you ever comprehend the soft then? lol :p

anyway, PH is namby pamby crap. I hate it. It's a good exercise in the beginning to understand listening skills, but when it's taken to the ludicrous levels that it is, well that's where it becomes the utter shyte that it is. I guess if you use it as some form of isometric exercise that would maybe benefit a little bit. That's about the only way I use it if I use it at all anymore.

either box or wrestle already, or both. Push hands is a teaching tool at the front end of the learning path.

people who don't know how to or don't have the guts to fight substitute PH in that place. Talk about sliding down that slippery slope. No benefit after beginners understanding is achieved.

I would suggest that most don't take it far enough. At the point where footwork isn't fixed, it is adding strikes away from sparring, so both can be done. Coincidentally, at the point where footwork isn't fixed, people need to accept that it's pretty much Shuai Jiao. I think its good to work throw setups when one wants to, but agree that, as a skill set on it's own that people work on for bragging rights, it's can be silly.

I think one of the main problems, and one that Bing's clip in Omar's posts gets around, is that no one worth their salt should be impressed by pushing scrubs. If I see a guy pushing someone who has a weight edge in a fairly realisitic manner, and their opponent isn't hopeless, it's worth more than being able to push an anaemic male model with a soul patch.

[KC Elbows]

You're only posting that pic because you know it will make my wife angry at me. Why do you hate me so?

[sanjuro_ronin]

You're only posting that pic because you know it will make my wife angry at me. Why do you hate me so?

Moi?
Whatsoever do you mean?
http://www.newstoob.com/media/images/2009/01/0112_yurizan-beltran-7-header.jpg

[KC Elbows]

Moi?
Whatsoever do you mean?
http://www.newstoob.com/media/images/2009/01/0112_yurizan-beltran-7-header.jpg

I'm so thankful that you don't always post a link the right way.

After all, more booby from you means less booby for me, though I am not averse to angry booby one bit. Because it is still yeilding, like taiji!

[Yum Cha]

How will you ever comprehend the soft then? lol :p

anyway, PH is namby pamby crap. I hate it. It's a good exercise in the beginning to understand listening skills, but when it's taken to the ludicrous levels that it is, well that's where it becomes the utter shyte that it is. I guess if you use it as some form of isometric exercise that would maybe benefit a little bit. That's about the only way I use it if I use it at all anymore.

either box or wrestle already, or both. Push hands is a teaching tool at the front end of the learning path.

people who don't know how to or don't have the guts to fight substitute PH in that place. Talk about sliding down that slippery slope. No benefit after beginners understanding is achieved.

I agree with David, its a tool, a building block to work on a subset of skills, towards integrating them into the complete Martial Artist.

If they become an end to themselves, no biggie, it its entertaining, but its not complete. I can see people get really into it.

I'm working with some young fighters, trying to get them to ratchet up. I find this exercise lets them get commitment and body weight into it, and importantly, gets them moving laterally, and is 'low impact'.

Breaking the whole into little pieces to practice, then re-assembling the pieces into a complete execution.

[Yum Cha]

You're only posting that pic because you know it will make my wife angry at me. Why do you hate me so?


Well mate, don't send him pictures of your wife then!

[KC Elbows]

Well mate, don't send him pictures of your wife then!

You're not helping the situation!:D

[Yum Cha]

You're not helping the situation!:D


What! Mrs KC's a dead-set Glamma!

You certainly are boxing above your weight class....

.......:p

[omarthefish]

I've noticed that when people try to grab me or push me that they can't do it when I punch them in the face real hard.
I also noticed that their ability to "sense" and read me doesn't work when my fist makes contact with their face.
That's true but then again, most people suck. :)



anyway, PH is namby pamby crap. I hate it. It's a good exercise in the beginning to understand listening skills, but when it's taken to the ludicrous levels that it is, well that's where it becomes the utter shyte that it is. I guess if you use it as some form of isometric exercise that would maybe benefit a little bit. That's about the only way I use it if I use it at all anymore...

Again, suckage abounds. Also, the idea that it could be used as some sort of isometric exercise reallio trulio emphasizes the suckage that you must have experienced. If their's any of that sort of thing going on, then both parties haven't got a clue what they are supposed to be doing.

I do take your general point and it follows up on Ronin's point but the fact is, push hands can be made to accommodate a hell of a lot more than what most peope use it for. Face punching, kicking, knees and throws can all be added in and, at some point, should be added in and at that point, as KC suggested, it does start to look a lot like Shuai Jiao. The Chen village push hands is hard to tell apart from Shuai Jiao so I suppose for them David's comment that it's "just for beginners" would have to apply to Judo randori as well since that entire repertoire is allowed except that in push hands, if both parties agree on it, you can add punching, head buts, knees and small joint manipulation into the mix.



... Talk about sliding down that slippery slope. No benefit after beginners understanding is achieved.
The slippery slope is created by the participants when they get enamored of certain aspects of push hands and create a bunch of imaginary rules where this or that isn't allowed and they try to get overly civil about the whole thing. The only thing that I'd say is particularly constant about across all the different styles of push hands I experience with my teacher is that it's not push hands when you break contact and it's not push hands when you abandon Taiji techniques and try to simply overpower your partner.

Admittedly, I get to do this free for all, freestepping, striking, grappling push hands with Shifu not nearly as often as I'd like but it does happen from time to time. Last weekend was one of those times. We started off with the single hand circling thing. Then he decides to do a little power testing just briefly. Then he kind of abandons that pattern and I have to bring my other hand up to defend myself. Then it's two hands with me trying like hell to keep my fingers and thumbs from being snapped. To try to escape his qin-na I have to start circling. Suddenly he switches to Bagua for a bit and throws some strikes my way. Then a flurry of Xing Yi pi and beng quans and then back to "regular" freestyle while I try my ****dest to apply what little Shuai Jiao I know and all the trips that I am a fair bit better at. He throws a handful of palms at my face and at some point his wife starts screaming at us to stop before he hurts me.

It was as rough and scary as any sparring I have ever done. I suppose the Xing Yi and Bagua bits would have to qualify as sparring since technically we were not really using Taiji repetoire at that point and certainly broke contact briefly but the level of contact was still like what you might see in Chi Sau when they throw those pak sau and punch combinations. Engagement is still continuous even if physical contact is momentarily broken.

It's main purpose is, IMO, to bridge the gap between form and fighting. It allows you to explore all the potential applications of the movements of your form and encourages you to work from within that curriculum. There are things that you learn in sparring that push hands can not teach you but there are also a hell of a lot of things that push hands can teach that sparring can't.

IMO, anyone who thinks that push hands is just for beginners or is just a "balance and sensitivity exercise" has had very little exposure to the full range of what it can be used to teach. It is aggravated by the fact that most all of the people I have run into who are invested in teaching Taiji as a martial art, teach push hands too early and rush right into freestyle giving not nearly enough attention to the basics. The result is a sort of low skilled randori between people who don't have any actual techniques under their belt and no real image of the kind of martial skill they are trying to develop. In that light, all the criticisms are valid.

I see things differently.

[YouKnowWho]

David's comment that it's "just for beginners" would have to apply to Judo randori ...

Some people stay in push hands, boxing, Judo randori, or SC wrestling all their life, some people pass beyond that and move on. There is nothing wrong to train the "beginner stuff" in the early stage of your life time. Soon or later, you have to gradulate out of your grade school and move into your high school, and then move into your college.

When an 80 years old Taiji master demonstrated push hands, I started to wonder, "Does he understand the integration of kick, punch, lock, throw, and ground game?" "Why did he refuse to gradulate from his elementary school?"

[Yum Cha]

It's main purpose is, IMO, to bridge the gap between form and fighting. It allows you to explore all the potential applications of the movements of your form and encourages you to work from within that curriculum. There are things that you learn in sparring that push hands can not teach you but there are also a hell of a lot of things that push hands can teach that sparring can't.

IMO, anyone who thinks that push hands is just for beginners or is just a "balance and sensitivity exercise" has had very little exposure to the full range of what it can be used to teach. It is aggravated by the fact that most all of the people I have run into who are invested in teaching Taiji as a martial art, teach push hands too early and rush right into freestyle giving not nearly enough attention to the basics. The result is a sort of low skilled randori between people who don't have any actual techniques under their belt and no real image of the kind of martial skill they are trying to develop. In that light, all the criticisms are valid.

I see things differently.

This is what I was thinking when I started playing with it. Its interesting because Pak Mei and Tai Chi are superficially different, yet in this area, we have a lot of game.

I think you work it up, removing rules, until it becomes sparring...or ratchet it down to focus on specific dynamic skills, depending on the skill level.

We talk a lot about committed opponents and learning to use your style under that pressure. It appears to be a good training tool towards that end is what I'm hearing.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

I'm glad that there's discussion on this. I've been thinking about it for a while, too, ever since I read this book about 4 years ago:

Play Practice: The Games Approach to Teaching Sports (http://www.humankinetics.com/products/all-products/play-practice) by Alan Launder.

The book is an important one for anyone wanting to explore live training through progressive rulesets. This method is in line with Malcolm Gladwell's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malcolm_Gladwell) research, as well as V.S. Ramachandran's. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vilayanur_S._Ramachandran)

In applying the games approach to MA training, I've gone back to what is, I'm sure, a fairly old tool: the ring (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gfgg7MSP20E).

Launder emphasizes 3 important aspects to developing what he calls "games sense:" Rulesets, tactics, and strategies. Ruleset progression is the key I'm working with. Using the ring, I'm working through a series of games that, through their rules, are designed to teach specific tactics and strategies.

My current games progression layout is:

1. Fixed Step Push Hands
2a. Moving Step/ring out Push Hands
2b. ring-out Boxing
3a. ring out Qin Na
3b. ring out chi sao
4a. ring-out Shuai Jiao
4b. ring-out kickboxing (or Olympic style TKD rules)
5a. Shuai Jiao w/ 3 second pin
5b. ring-out San Da/Lei Tai
6a. Submission Wrestling
6b. San Da w/ 3 second pin
7. MMA

I may add or change some of the games as I work my way through.

Proficiency/competence or "Games sense" in 1 allows training at 2, and so forth.

[omarthefish]

Some people stay in push hands, boxing, Judo randori, or SC wrestling all their life, some people pass beyond that and move on. There is nothing wrong to train the "beginner stuff" in the early stage of your life time. Soon or later, you have to gradulate out of your grade school and move into your high school, and then move into your college.

Well that is a fairer comparison. If you think of boxing, randori or even pure shuai jiao wrestling also as "begginer stage" then I can work with that as it seems like you consider only full freestyle sparring or actual fighting to be advanced.

I feel like Yum Cha has totally got where I am coming from and Xiao Meng is presenting an interesting twist on the idea I hadn't really thought about much.

[Yum Cha]

Well that is a fairer comparison. If you think of boxing, randori or even pure shuai jiao wrestling also as "begginer stage" then I can work with that as it seems like you consider only full freestyle sparring or actual fighting to be advanced.

I feel like Yum Cha has totally got where I am coming from and Xiao Meng is presenting an interesting twist on the idea I hadn't really thought about much.

yea, I'm on the same page with Xiao Meng, in principle, details may vary....

[Xiao3 Meng4]

yea, I'm on the same page with Xiao Meng, in principle, details may vary....

Good. Evolution benefits from variety.

[tiaji1983]

Push hands:
Fixxed position - you stick to the opponent and move in fixxed positions to feel your opponent and learn to sense direction, power, and speed.
Stationary - (the hardest to master) you stick to the opponent and your feet stay in one position, and you counter and use the 13 powers against the opponents direction, power and speed. You learn how to sink and root properly.
Moving - you stick to the opponent and move while you counter and use the 13 powers against the opponents direction, power and speed
sparring/fighting - you learn to connect, stick, close in distance, and move while you counter and use the 13 powers against the opponents direction, power and speed.

In a nutshell push hands just develops sensitivity and helps you relaxe in a close counter environment, and then teaches you how to stick as you move with an opponent, and then you can use all those techniques efectively in a fight, once you learn how to connect. Rules just complicate things, and waters down the style, but Chen Chang Xin's 36 sicknesses show you how to develop sensitivity and skill in countering the most efficiently. Hence "rules" like not holding, committing your grasp, and not sweeping or tripping. It wastes energy you dont need to be wasting. If you can easily roll a log around, why would you want to carry it?

[YouKnowWho]

Well that is a fairer comparison. If you think of boxing, randori or even pure shuai jiao wrestling also as "begginer stage" then I can work with that as it seems like you consider only full freestyle sparring or actual fighting to be advanced.

It takes a lot of courage to move beyond your comfortable area. There is a voice that keep telling you, "You are fine just stay, no need to move on." There is always another voice that keep telling you, "If you stay, you will regret the day when you die". Not willing to change is always human's weakness. On the other hand, the excitement of changing will always make you feel young and alive.

[omarthefish]

It takes a lot of courage to move beyond your comfortable area. There is a voice that keep telling you, "You are fine just stay, no need to move on." There is always another voice that keep telling you, "If you stay, you will regret the day when you die". Not willing to change is always human's weakness. On the other hand, the excitement of changing will always make you feel young and alive.
That's a really interesting reply because it says much more about your own personality than about the relative merits of the argument.

Everyone out there has their own personal preference for change vs. stability. For some people "the excitement of change" may make them feel young and alive but for others it just makes them nervous and fearful. Some people thrive on change and others thrive more on stability. My wife hates to order anything at a restaurant that we have had before. She always wants to try something new. OTOH, I when I discover a dish I really like, I order the same thing every time for a long time. I'm just so happy to find something I really enjoy.

You may regret it if you stay. Some other people may regret not having gone deeper into that same place. I'll give you an example:

I left Hung Gar after 8 years under one of the top teachers in the whole United States. Sometimes I really regret it. If I had stayed with Hung Gar, I would be a teacher already by now. It would have been 18 years already and I could have learned pretty much the whole style and be much closer to my lifelong dream of living as a professional kung fu teacher.

[sanjuro_ronin]

My exposure to Chen Taiji was limited, only a few years on and off and it was because I was adding some things to my aresenal and the Taiji sifu was a friend of a friend and wanted some of his guys to get some "real world" application for their taiji.
The push hands I was exposed to was very much "clinch wrestling" but because of the limited scope they were accustomed too it was very easy, in the beginning, to take them out of their comfort zone and that highly specific "sensitvity" fell through.
Of course, with a few minor changes ( and a couple of major ones), they were able to adapt very well.
That is the case with the vast majority of "sensitivity training" like push hands and sticky hands.

[Frost]

My exposure to Chen Taiji was limited, only a few years on and off and it was because I was adding some things to my aresenal and the Taiji sifu was a friend of a friend and wanted some of his guys to get some "real world" application for their taiji.
The push hands I was exposed to was very much "clinch wrestling" but because of the limited scope they were accustomed too it was very easy, in the beginning, to take them out of their comfort zone and that highly specific "sensitvity" fell through.
Of course, with a few minor changes ( and a couple of major ones), they were able to adapt very well.
That is the case with the vast majority of "sensitivity training" like push hands and sticky hands.

yep when i first did clinch fighting it was like, "hey this is fully body sticky hands and they actually let you go to the finish and dont keep resetting you its great!"

[omarthefish]

I just finished subtitling this mini-lecture on push hands by one of the all time greats. Wu style Master Wang Peisheng. In the middle there's a part that I am sure people will wail and gnash their teeth with lots of complaints about well trained students but his skill is very real. At least he doesn't explain the no touch stuff with qi or magic. He explains that he is leading the persons intent. At times his stuff looks very much like Aikido.

There is surprisingly little information about him online. He was the head of the northern Wu style of Taijiquan and learned Bagua from Ma Gui who was a student of Dong Haichuan. He talks a lot about pressure points and qi but nevertheless, he is one of the guys with a serious rep as a fighter. So take that as you will. Anyways, here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRlS3fBR2k0

[David Jamieson]

lol. push hands has little if any value at all as a method of learning self defense.

To stick with it for years is castrating yourself martially and to enter into competitions for it?

[bawang]

to a sh1t taichi guy everything is push hands. tai chi is push hands.
one time i asked this guy what "groin punch" app is. "well you first yield his jab, then stick to his arm and make a bridge. this is very important. then pengggggg, luuuuuu, push!!"

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Yeah, it's like people expect "hide fist under elbow" or "advance step, parry and punch" to be anything but Ji.

To me, Fa Jin and Ji are like drum and drumstick.

[Mfinn]

I just finished subtitling this mini-lecture on push hands by one of the all time greats. Wu style Master Wang Peisheng. In the middle there's a part that I am sure people will wail and gnash their teeth with lots of complaints about well trained students but his skill is very real. At least he doesn't explain the no touch stuff with qi or magic. He explains that he is leading the persons intent. At times his stuff looks very much like Aikido.

There is surprisingly little information about him online. He was the head of the northern Wu style of Taijiquan and learned Bagua from Ma Gui who was a student of Dong Haichuan. He talks a lot about pressure points and qi but nevertheless, he is one of the guys with a serious rep as a fighter. So take that as you will. Anyways, here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRlS3fBR2k0

Master Wang was a great man. He came to the US in the early 90s and paid a visit to NYC where he met with my teacher Yu Cheng Hsiang and his class. He spent 19 years in prison in China because he represented the Four Olds as a very traditional martial artist and Chinese medical practitioner. That was in the days when Mao wanted to get rid of everyone like him. Before the government decided they could make money from the traditional arts and effectively took them over. Master Wang was a Wu practitioner and the real deal. For people like him and my teacher, push hands is just a means of testing oneself, not an end in itself. His art was lethal up until his death in his 90s.

[Syn7]

To me, Fa Jin and Ji are like drum and drumstick.

can u define both 4 me please...

[KC Elbows]

Well, Drum is really bad cheap tobacco, and drumsticks are from KFC. What he's saying is if you don't chain smoke you can't have good kung fu, and if you don't have a KFC every three blocks, you must not be in China, and so your kung fu sucks again.

For $9,800 and some KFC, I know a guy who'll help you make your kung fu look real nice, though.

[taai gihk yahn]

His art was lethal up until his death in his 90s.
in what capacity was the "lethality" of his art ever demonstrated? did he ever kill anybody using his Wu taiji? and if so, how old was he the last time he used his Wu taiji to off someone?

[bawang]

in what capacity was the "lethality" of his art ever demonstrated? did he ever kill anybody using his Wu taiji? and if so, how old was he the last time he used his Wu taiji to off someone?

dis what im talking about. all the bs hype. lethal my ass.

can u define both 4 me please...

a drumstick is a small baby cow that hasnt opened its eyes yet resembling a purple ripe eggplant

[Xiao3 Meng4]

can u define both 4 me please...

A drum only makes sound when struck; A drumstick only makes sound when striking. One without the other means no sound, no effect. To me, Ji Jin and Fa Jin are connected like drum and drumstick.

[omarthefish]

Reviving this thread because I was just introduced to this, to my eye anyways, incredible push hands clip. This is what it's all about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpce_-nmmp0&feature=player_embedded

You could dial it up a bit if you wanted and add some striking or real throws but you could also just spar. I think that this clip is really exemplary in showing the kind of work it is best designed for which is....fairly abstract. It's best used as a way to train your body to react and move "according to Taiji principles and techniques".

The teacher in this clip is just toying with his student and it's not competitive but it's not cooperative either. They are having fun. It's kind of like technical sparring. The student really is trying his damdest to apply stuff and the teacher is applying stuff all the time but then just letting it go because it's not about winning. If he was a musician, you could say that he was "noodling". And before anyone gets their nuts in a bunch asking "but can he fight"...yes. Back when he was younger he won one of those full contact South East Asia leitai things where they just wore gardening gloves and a cup. His students box and do randori type drills as well but this clip here should give a good idea of the kind of body method that push hands is trying to develop.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Reviving this thread because I was just introduced to this, to my eye anyways, incredible push hands clip. This is what it's all about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpce_-nmmp0&feature=player_embedded

That is not "what it's all about" in my eyes. I did not like that push hands clip at all. Also the student seemed to move in a way that indicated cooperation.

As far as "playing around" goes - experimenting, doing semi-semi-serious stuff - here is my friend Richard and our instructor Kevin playing Rou Shou:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGuh42eHMuU

And here is an interesting Wu Tai ji Tui Shou Clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUf1llA3HXg

Those clips are enjoyable to me because the practitioners are exerting a goal-oriented effort. The Peter Ralston stuff had no discernible goal. It did not sit well with me. Minus points for P.R.

Here is what I like to see:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ft_ZtX9wRdA&feature=related

Of course I prefer it if both competitors are more evenly matched.

In the end I believe Tai Ji's "non-striking skills" are best trained and expressed under a Shuai Jiao ruleset.

[omarthefish]

You should ask Kevin's opinion about the Ralston clip. I suspect he sees a lot more going on there than you realize.

I have always liked that Wu clip. It's a good example but not nearly as interesting to me as the Ralston clip. It's basically Shuai Jiao. It's very relaxed Shuai Jiao but his partner is not as good, IMO, as the guy struggling with Ralston and they are really just doing Shuai. In the Ralston clip he is cycling between striking, throwing, simple evasion, playing with root. It is, IMHO, far more creative work. Much of the technique Ralston is applying gets missed by his audience because he keeps letting things go. It would be a bit like if the Wu guy kept playing around and setting up throws but then not actually throwing the guy. Sometimes maybe even lifting the guy off the ground, sometimes just ****ing with his balance and then pausing just enough to let the student recover.

The only other place I have seen work like this is in a couple of BJJ clips here and there where I have seen guys rolling just going through set-ups, going for position and then abandoning it just so they could practice getting it again and so on.

The Chen village clip is kind of fun but not particularly high level or anything. Just a fairly competent Chen guy somewhat but not completely outclassing one of the tourists. He's doing pretty basic stuff. It's enjoyable to watch but pretty technical. Nothing especially "Taiji" about it.

[YouKnowWho]

I've noticed that when people try to grab me or push me that they can't do it when I punch them in the face real hard.
I also noticed that their ability to "sense" and read me doesn't work when my fist makes contact with their face.
There is such thing called "dead angle" that your hand cannot reach. Without the knowledge of "using the leading arm to jam the back arm", it will be very stupid for your opponent to grab you in the 1st place.

How will you be able to punch your opponent when your opponent's right hand grabs on your right upper arm, and his body is moving toward your right (his left)? Your leading right arm is controlled by his right hand. Your back left arm is also "jamed" by your leading right arm. If you try to punch your opponent with your back left hand, all your opponent needs to do is just give you a quick "pulling".


Only grabbing is off limits although you are always welcome to try but that just gets you joint locked in a real painful way.
If

- punch is not allowed in your PH, your counters training for punch will be weak.
- kick is not allowed in your PH, your counters training for kick will be weak.
- grab is not allowed in your PH, your counters training for grab will be weak.

To assume that a Taiji master who can apply effective joint locking on a grip fight expert is not very logical assumption IMO.

When your opponent grabs you, he wants you to pay attention on his grabbing and forget about the rest part of his body. If you try to deal with his grabbing, you will fall into his trap because he can release his grip faster than any of your actions. In CMA. it's called "掖(ye) - tuck in". Your opponent's wrist grabbing is temporary fake move. What your opponent's want is something else.

The "grip fighting" is missing in Taiji PH just because the grabbing is not allowed. Disallow the grabbing will eliminate many useful hand skill and locking skill training. This will make Taiji guys not familiar with "how to deal with grip". Same as Taiji PH won't allow "head lock", it will eliminate Taiji guys to train "head lock" and many "head lock" counters go with it.


In the end I believe Tai Ji's "non-striking skills" are best trained and expressed under a Shuai Jiao ruleset.
This put Taiji in a very awkward position. Since most of the leg moves that will be required in a throwing arts such as

踢 Forward kick (TI),
撮 Scooping kick (CUO),
粘 Sticking kick (ZHAN),
彈 Spring (TAN),
挑 Hooking kick (TIAO),
纏 Foot entangling (CHAN),
合 Inner hook (HE),
撿 Foot picking (JIAN),
沖 Inner kick(CHONG),
掛 Inner heel sweep (GUA),
刀 Inner sickle (DAO)
蹩 Break (BIE),
撩 Back kick (LIAO),
切 Front cut(QIE),
削 Sickle hooking (XIAO)
勾 Back sickle (GOU),
裏 Back inner hook (LI),
擓 Leg bending lift (KUAI)

are missing in Taiji, it will make Taiji a not very effective throwing art IMO.

Not trying to put down Taiji here. I have trained Taiji since I was 7 years old. I have spent more training time in my Taiji than my SC. But the fact is still the fact even it may not be what we want to hear.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

You should ask Kevin's opinion about the Ralston clip. I suspect he sees a lot more going on there than you realize.

Maybe... you could always ask him directly. He may have been my instructor, yet we're still different people with different ideas.


Much of the technique Ralston is applying gets missed by his audience because he keeps letting things go. It would be a bit like if the Wu guy kept playing around and setting up throws but then not actually throwing the guy.

That's part of my issue with what's being shown. If the Wu guys hadn't followed through, I'd have disliked that clip too. The REASON I think P.R.'s clip looks the way it does is due to the fact that there's no goal. I would rather have seen him and his student do a fixed step push hands drill that had a defined goal than to just mess around arbitrarily. I still found the student to be very compliant.


The Chen village clip is kind of fun but not particularly high level or anything. Just a fairly competent Chen guy somewhat but not completely outclassing one of the tourists. He's doing pretty basic stuff. It's enjoyable to watch but pretty technical. Nothing especially "Taiji" about it.

You and I have different ideas about what TaiJi is, which is cool because there are many flavours of Tai Ji out there. For instance, and in reply to YouKnowWho's post about Tai Ji not having leg work: There are about 20 trips/throws which can be pulled from the first section of Fu Zhong Wen's Yang form alone.

[YouKnowWho]

in reply to YouKnowWho's post about Tai Ji not having leg work: There are about 20 trips/throws which can be pulled from the first section of Fu Zhong Wen's Yang form alone.

Could you talk a bit more detail on those? What are those? What's the training methods?

IMO,

- Peng can be integrated with 撮 Scooping kick (CUO).
- Lu can be integrated with 彈 Spring (TAN).
- Ji can be integrated with 撿 Foot picking (JIAN).
- An can be integrated with 合 Inner hook (HE).
- Cloud Hands can be integrated with 踢 Forward kick (TI).
- Diagonal Fly can be integrated with 削 Sickle hooking (XIAO).
- ...

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Some of my notes... no vid yet, want to make one though.

Personal notes on Fu ZhongWen's Yang 85

Beginning Stance
(Post Stance)

1. Raise Up
(Upward energy)

2. Touch in
(downward energy)

3. Ward off right : waist and hips turn in unison
(example technique - outside same-side leg trip)

4. Ward off left : waist and hips linked with weight shift
(example technique - pushing someone's shoulders - outside same-side leg trip)

5. Grasp the sparrow's tail to the right
5a. Peng : waist and hips turn with weight shift
(example technique - right wrist wards off opponent's right wrist, left hand wards off opponent's right elbow)
5b. Lu : hips follow waist, which follows weight shift
(example technique - upward pressure on inside of opponent's right elbow, downward pressure on outside of opponent's right wrist [large elbow wrap])
5c. Ji : waist follows hips, which follow weight shift : Ji is a sudden disrupting movement.
(example techniques - 1. forward pressure on inside of opponent's right elbow, backward pressure on inside of opponent's right wrist. 2. Sudden strike [hand, elbow or forearm.] 3. Sudden change of pressure direction or type[shaking])
5d. An : Waist and hips disconnect and reconnect in unison with weight shift
(example technique - Drawing the opponent into tripping position, then pushing to trip.)

6. Left single whip : Hips follow waist
(example technique - Turning Trip and/or arm control)

7. Raise hands and step up : Hips follow waist (shake right) then waist follows hips (shake left)
(example technique - Shake, then trap Like Pi Quan + stomp or trip left or right)

8. White Crane Spreads it Wings
8a. Left elbow stroke : Waist follows hips
(example technique - elbow to ribs)
8b. Right shoulder stroke : Waist follows weight shift
(example technique: body check)
8c. Crane raises right wing : waist turns to the right
(example technique: upper gate guard/cover)
8d. Crane lowers left wing and stands in cat stance : Waist turns to the left
(example technique: trip over left leg)
8e. Crane Circles wings : Hips follow waist
(example technique - catching a right kick)

9. Left Brush knee : Waist follows hips which follows weight shift
(example technique - throw from kick catch)

10. Play the Lute : Waist follows hips
(example technique - Clinch and trip left or right)

11. Left and Right Brush knee
11a. Crane Circles wings : Hips follow waist
(example technique - catch and lock the left arm)
11b. Left Brush Knee : Waist follows hips which follow weight shift
(example technique - throw from arm lock)
11c. Crane Raises left wing : Hips follow waist
(example technique - catch and lock the right arm)
11d. Right Brush Knee : Waist follows hips which follow weight shift
(example technique - throw from arm lock)
11e. Crane Raises Right Wing : Hips follow waist
(example technique - catch and lock the right arm)
11f. Left Brush Knee : Waist follows hips which follow weight shift
(example technique - throw from arm lock)


12. Play the lute : Waist follows hips
(example technique - Clinch and trip left or right)

13. Left Brush Knee : see above. catch left kick and throw.

14. Advance Step, parry punch
14a. parry low to the left : hips follow waist
(example technique - catch kick or punch)
14b. Step out and parry low to the right : waist follows hips which follow weight shift
(example technique - throw, step/trip)
14c. Step/ward off and punch : waist follows hips which follows weight shift
(example technique - punch + trip)
15. An : Waist and Hips disconnect and reconnect in unison with weight shift
(example technique - Draw them into tripping range and push to trip.)

16. Apparent closure : Everything moves in unison - end of section 1.

[Yum Cha]

Nice stuff guys, thanks for all the info.

On the main forum, people are talking about what Pak Mei looks like when really used.

I see a lot of similarities, obviously not counting the striking part, notably the trapping and slipping but most importantly, the range.

Lots of fighters over commit their weight in effort to use reach. The movement of the hips in these videos tells the story.

[bawang]

taijiquan only has basic wrestling. taijiquan is boxing with some basic wrestling to learn to defend against wrestling. its wrestling doesnt go as deep or advanced as shuai jiao.
grab knee: single leg or tackle. white crane spread wing: sweep step over tiger: turning throw. bull crush man: reap. clinch stance: wrestling clinch. four flat clinch: punching clinch. facing sun: hip throw. reverse slide: fireman carry

push hands is an excuse for fear of sparring, fake wrestling is excuse for fear of boxing. push hands is a supplementary sensitivity excercise. everybody is saying if u dont push hands u dont do tai chi, this is rediculous and gay.

[Violent Designs]

taijiquan only has basic wrestling. Taijiquan is boxing with some basic wrestling to learn to defend against wrestling. Its wrestling doesnt go as deep or advanced as shuai jiao.
Grab knee: Single leg or tackle. White crane spread wing: Sweep step over tiger: Turning throw. Bull crush man: Reap. Clinch stance: Wrestling clinch. Four flat clinch: Punching clinch. Facing sun: Hip throw. Reverse slide: Fireman carry

push hands is an excuse for fear of sparring, fake wrestling is excuse for fear of boxing. Push hands is a supplementary sensitivity excercise. Everybody is saying if u dont push hands u dont do tai chi, this is rediculous and gay.

宝贝儿呀，别让他们在丢脸了。。。。。

[Yum Cha]

I think of it as a transitional training opportunity, to get non fighters prepared for the onslaught of a fully committed fighter.

When it goes to the point of throws and grappling, well, I'll leave that aspect to the stylists.

I just want to steal part of it....:D

[Xiao3 Meng4]

@ YouKnowWho:

I see Shuai Jiao as a set of more complex rules than push hands, nothing more.

@ Yum Cha:

I agree that Push Hands is a stepping stone which can be used by anyone.

Fixed Step push hands teaches you to destabilize a standing, resisting opponent.
Moving Step push hands teaches you to destabilize and move a moving, resisting opponent.
Shuai Jiao teaches you to destabilize, move, and floor a moving, resisting opponent.



I don't know Shuai Jiao terminology all that well; from what I gather, though, Tai Ji Quan has all of the common Shuai Jiao techniques. The frame I practice uses primarily face-to-face and small-movement techniques, but also has some turn-waist-back and big-movement techs. I suspect different Tai Ji styles place more or less emphasis on which category to focus on.

As for specific techs, here are some variations from the form:

Splashing Kick (Po Jiao) - Left toe kick; Right toe kick; Turn body and kick with right heel (both the left sweep and right kick are splashing kicks)
Big Outside Hook (Da Dehele) - High Pat on Horse; Turn and kick with left heel; Left and right hit tiger
Turning Body Leg sweep (Da Bie Zi) - The entry into single whip; Brush Knee; Turn body and strike
Insert and Dodge (Cha Shan) - Repulse Like Monkey

Moves that are repeated in the form express multiple techs: for instance, Repulse like monkey can also be used as a Big Outside Hook variation.

[YouKnowWho]

Tai Ji Quan has all of the common Shuai Jiao techniques.

No matter what CMA style that you train, if you just get a training partner, drill 100 "hip throws", and wrestle 15 rounds daily, you will be able to develop that "hip throw" in 6 months. It's the training method and not whether your Taiji solo form contains "hip throw" or not. Taiji over emphasizes the "solo form" training which is the opposite of the throwing skill development.

IMO, the mind set of "my style is complete" will only stop us from moving forward. You will

- not find any SC guy who will claim that SC has all the striking skill (punches and kicks).
- find a lot of Taiji guys who will claim that Taiji has all the throwing skill.

Why? Are SC guys too pessimistic? Or are Taiji guys too optimistic?

Both Taiji PH and SC wrestling do make the same mistake, and that is Taiji guys think to push their opponent away, or SC guys think to throw their oponent down is the end of the game. There are more than that afterward.

[KC Elbows]

Violent design is a troublemaker.:D

Push hands is not just sensitivity training, if done correctly. That's the problem, people want to make it into just that, and never use it to implement techniques from their style, imo. It's a sensitivity exercise ONLY if one uses it to implement techniques, if one is only implementing principles, they are gonna fall short, as you're not training sensitivity in the context of using your style.

All the guys I've ever played tuishou with who were competent developed sensitivity in context to their techniques, all the people who solely used it for sensitivity and didn't do comprehensive work on implementing techniques reached a plateau earlier.

Whenever you see a teacher dominating their students in it, it's usually a teacher using verbatim moves in their proper context against students not doing so.

That said, it's also self limiting to disallow grabs, head controls, etc. from a system that does them A HUGE AMOUNT and has responses to them.

This is when you get people who do well in a ruleset, but can't deal with someone clinching. Push hands occurs entirely in one manner of clinch or another, even if not what some recognize as clinch. To rule out common clinches is self limiting.

It's a great practice for training one range, but the systems that use it generally are supposed to train outside of that range as well, as in outside range into that range, not so much ground.

And there is something entirely untaoist about saying "I train to NEVER go to ground." If the tao says you're going to ground, you gonna fight the tao?

[Violent Designs]

Violent design is a troublemaker.:D

Push hands is not just sensitivity training, if done correctly. That's the problem, people want to make it into just that, and never use it to implement techniques from their style, imo. It's a sensitivity exercise ONLY if one uses it to implement techniques, if one is only implementing principles, they are gonna fall short, as you're not training sensitivity in the context of using your style.

All the guys I've ever played tuishou with who were competent developed sensitivity in context to their techniques, all the people who solely used it for sensitivity and didn't do comprehensive work on implementing techniques reached a plateau earlier.

Whenever you see a teacher dominating their students in it, it's usually a teacher using verbatim moves in their proper context against students not doing so.

That said, it's also self limiting to disallow grabs, head controls, etc. from a system that does them A HUGE AMOUNT and has responses to them.

This is when you get people who do well in a ruleset, but can't deal with someone clinching. Push hands occurs entirely in one manner of clinch or another, even if not what some recognize as clinch. To rule out common clinches is self limiting.

It's a great practice for training one range, but the systems that use it generally are supposed to train outside of that range as well, as in outside range into that range, not so much ground.

And there is something entirely untaoist about saying "I train to NEVER go to ground." If the tao says you're going to ground, you gonna fight the tao?

how can i let bawang have all the fun? :D

[tiaji1983]

This put Taiji in a very awkward position. Since most of the leg moves that will be required in a throwing arts such as

踢 Forward kick (TI),
撮 Scooping kick (CUO),
粘 Sticking kick (ZHAN),
彈 Spring (TAN),
挑 Hooking kick (TIAO),
纏 Foot entangling (CHAN),
合 Inner hook (HE),
撿 Foot picking (JIAN),
沖 Inner kick(CHONG),
掛 Inner heel sweep (GUA),
刀 Inner sickle (DAO)
蹩 Break (BIE),
撩 Back kick (LIAO),
切 Front cut(QIE),
削 Sickle hooking (XIAO)
勾 Back sickle (GOU),
裏 Back inner hook (LI),
擓 Leg bending lift (KUAI)

are missing in Taiji, it will make Taiji a not very effective throwing art IMO.

Not trying to put down Taiji here. I have trained Taiji since I was 7 years old. I have spent more training time in my Taiji than my SC. But the fact is still the fact even it may not be what we want to hear.[/QUOTE]

Uhmm. What style Taijiquan do you study? most of those are found in Chen and Wudang style, if I understand them right. Some are also in Yang but are more subtle. Unless Im missunderstanding the meaning of the terms.

Forward kick is in Chang Man Ching's 37,
Scooping Kick is in all of Chen style forms, in some Wudang, Can be Lotus Kick in Yang
Sticking Kick is in Chen
Spring is in all the forms with Chicken Kicks
Hooking kick is hidden in Wudang
Foot entangling is in all styles
Inner hook is in Wudang etc etc...

Pls let me know if Im misunderstanding the meaning of the terms, I could just be talking through my ignorance, but I do think I seen those to my understanding in Taijiquan somewhere...

[bawang]

theres no hidden wrestling moves in taijiquan. its all common shaolin boxing done slow. the difference is taijiquan do them defensively aka soft

[YouKnowWho]

Forward kick is in Chang Man Ching's 37,
Scooping Kick is in all of Chen style forms, in some Wudang, Can be Lotus Kick in Yang
Sticking Kick is in Chen
Spring is in all the forms with Chicken Kicks
Hooking kick is hidden in Wudang
Foot entangling is in all styles
Inner hook is in Wudang etc etc...

Pls let me know if Im misunderstanding the meaning of the terms, I could just be talking through my ignorance, but I do think I seen those to my understanding in Taijiquan somewhere...
1. You may misunderstand the meaning of those terms. For example, this is what I mean
纏(CHAN) - Foot entangling(Kawazu gake). It's at 0.58 in this clip. Do you truly believe it exists in Taiji?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2neoxbPJr0

2. I can't find forward kick (foot sweep) in CMC 37 moves form.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqLxMPIVAlo

You can see many forward kick (foot sweep) in this clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwS0aPedoEo

3. I don't know what chicken kick is, but it doesn't sound like spring. The 彈(TAN) - Spring is to use your leg to "bounce" your opponent's leg away.


theres no hidden wrestling moves in taijiquan. its all common shaolin boxing done slow. the difference is taijiquan do them defensively aka soft
Many CMA styles claim that certain move is hidden in their form. A "flying knee" can be just hidden in a golden rooster stance. Again, it's not whether your solo form has similiar posture or not. It's whether you can apply that move in combat that count.

[Violent Designs]

Many CMA styles claim that certain move is hidden in their form. A "flying knee" can be just hidden in a golden rooster stance. Again, it's not whether your solo form has similiar posture or not. It's whether you can apply that move in combat that count.

Fighting has been around for a very long time.

Perhaps, being a Chinese I seem to understand this idea.

To glorify the Chinese styles as something more, superior, esoteric, mysterious....

You know, 4,000 years of "fighting history" should have something extremely useful, applicable, and destructive!!!

The sad thing is, everyone else has been evolving for 4,000 years too, LOL. :cool:

[bawang]

Again, it's not whether your solo form has similiar posture or not. It's whether you can apply that move in combat that count.
if ur not honest to yourself and be truthful u cant apply anything.

when the taint dies off we can start to recover chinese martial arts from embarasment and humiliation.

[Dragonzbane76]

when the taint dies off we can start to recover chinese martial arts from embarasment and humiliation.

i wouldn't call it taint, Transition maybe.

it's always a rough road when change happens. :)

[scottdurand]

Wow this thread took off! I'm glad to see the discussion going....

[bawang]

i wouldn't call it taint, Transition maybe.

it's always a rough road when change happens. :)

if u call it a transition u imply it has always been like this, and the corruption and evil is normal. i dsagree

this is evil because you manipulate peoples mind and egos from their fears and desires ,and excploiting their hopes, fantasies . ur creating cults.

[YouKnowWho]

Scooping Kick is in some Wudang,
Hooking kick is hidden in Wudang
Inner hook is in Wudang etc etc...
Your comment made me to watch this clip all the way to the end. Besides the front heel kick, front toe kick, and outside crescent kick that can be used in the striking art, I can only see the golden rooster stance that can be used in a knee lifting throw. I just don't see any other "hidden" leg moves that can be used for scooping kick, hooking kick, and inner hook. This form is no different from the Yang long form. There is no new moves in that form.

Please notice that all those 3 leg moves will require single leg balance. I just don't see that in Wudang Taiji form.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kKbcQT7oo8

The 挑(TIAO) - Hooking kick is to use your leg to lift your opponent's upper leg or grion area and throw him over your head. Are you sure that 挑(TIAO) - Hooking kick (it's called Uchi Mata in Judo) exists in any style of Taiji?

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/uchimata.htm

This is the 撮 Scooping kick (CUO).

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/kouchigari.htm

and this is the 合 Inner hook (HE).

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ouchigari.htm

[tiaji1983]

For the hooking kick in Wudang Taijiquan, look up the Wudang Taijiquan Sword, and imagine not using the sword. Also in Taiyi Wuxing which most consider as part of the Taijiquan Curriculum to my understanding uses the hooking kick

Scooping kick is first noticable as a Xinyi kick in the 13 and the 28 Wudang Taijiquan form

The Inner hook is simply a step back which is noticable in the 13 movement Wudang Taijiquan form.

[YouKnowWho]

For the hooking kick in Wudang Taijiquan, look up the Wudang Taijiquan Sword, and imagine not using the sword. Also in Taiyi Wuxing which most consider as part of the Taijiquan Curriculum to my understanding uses the hooking kick
Now you are saying a throwing move is hidden in the sword form. It's a bit too abstract for me.

Are you saying that the 挑(TIAO) - Hooking kick (Uchi Mata in Judo) can be developed by "imagination"? It will be interested to discuss the Wudang Taiji method to develop this skill.

Does Wudang Taijiquan Sword or Taiyi Wuxing has any posture that similiar to thiis?

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/1482/leglifting.jpg

[tiaji1983]

ok my understanding of Spring was wrong. It could simply be a bumb or a Xinyi Kick.

[YouKnowWho]

ok my understanding of Spring was wrong. It could simply be a bumb or a Xinyi Kick.
That's no prolem. It's fun for discussion anyway.

I'm also not sure which move may resemble the 挑(TIAO) - Hooking kick (Uchi Mata in Judo) in this clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6T4y0pfyZI

[bawang]

this is called 昭阳跌 or 旋风跌 in long fist. tai chi doesnt have it.

[Violent Designs]

That's no prolem. It's fun for discussion anyway.

I'm also not sure which move may resemble the 挑(TIAO) - Hooking kick (Uchi Mata in Judo) in this clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6T4y0pfyZI

Question, is your opinion then of Taiji Quan being basically a system that does a little bit of striking, a little bit of wrestling but not specializing in both?

Do you feel that training in Taijiquan is inefficient compared to say... a guy who just does straight up San Da/Muay Thai combined with Shuai Jiao/Judo/Greco-Roman???

Honest question, I've always liked Taiji but some say it's striking, most say it's wrestling, but then why not just train Shuai Jiao from the get go? Wouldn't that make more sense?

That said, what does Taiji (and Bagua, for that matter) offer BEYOND cross-training specialist systems? Is it the qigong aspect (which is another topic as well)? Is it philosophical, medicinal, mystical or something else? That is, if you feel Taiji training does actually offer something doing other styles (cross training) does not....

Thanks

[YouKnowWho]

Let me try to answer your questions if I may.

1. is your opinion then of Taiji Quan being basically a system that does a little bit of striking, a little bit of wrestling but not specializing in both?

It's hard to define whether Taiji is a striking art or a throwing art. It is lacking many striking arts skills and also lacking some throwing art skill. It's not impossibe to add all the missing moves back into Taiji and that's what we are discussing here (such as diagonal fly with outer hook, ...).

2. Do you feel that training in Taijiquan is inefficient compared to say... a guy who just does straight up San Da/Muay Thai combined with Shuai Jiao/Judo/Greco-Roman???

Over emphasize on solo form training and not enough 2 men drills training is the issue. It's not the style but how you train. If you get a partner, drill 100 "diagonal fly with outer hook" and wrestle 15 rounds daily, you will be able to develop that "diagonal fly with outer hook" in 6 months. If you just train your solo form, no matter how long that you train, you will never be able to develop that skill. When I trained Taiji only, I tried to used my "diagonal fly" on my opponent, most of the time my opponent could step out of it. Until one day I added "outer hook" into my "diagonal fly", I could see the combat result changed big time.

http://johnswang.com/shoulder_strike.wmv
http://johnswang.com/shoulder_strike1.wmv

3. Honest question, I've always liked Taiji but some say it's striking, most say it's wrestling, but then why not just train Shuai Jiao from the get go? Wouldn't that make more sense?

You train CMA to obtain kick, punch, lock, and throw skills.

4. That said, what does Taiji (and Bagua, for that matter) offer BEYOND cross-training specialist systems? Is it the qigong aspect (which is another topic as well)? Is it philosophical, medicinal, mystical or something else? That is, if you feel Taiji training does actually offer something doing other styles (cross training) does not....

Combat is the only subject that I'm interested. I try to stay away from health, Qi, medicine, mystrical, and spiritual development discussions. For example, I run marathon for health, go to church for spiritual development, and ... As I have said, combat was the only reason that I trained Taiji when I was 7 years old. Why did I pick up Taiji? Because it was the only CMA style available for me at that time (I lived in a remote village). However those are just my opinion and I don't expect others to agree with me on this.

Just find an excellent kicking clip. I like the kicks on that PVC pipe, Excellent training method. I have always believed it's not what style that you train but how you train. If Taiji guys can train their "right/left separate leg" like in this clip, all MT guys will come to Taiji system to learn their front kick.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IomX4gESIlM

[Violent Designs]

John, their conditioning seems really similar to the way Okinawan Uechi-Ryu Karate conditions.

[YouKnowWho]

John, their conditioning seems really similar to the way Okinawan Uechi-Ryu Karate conditions.
I believe you are right. An Uechi-Ryu Karate friend of mine trained his kick by hitting the wall, using his toes and not his ball of the foot. That was quite serious training.

[tiaji1983]

Now you are saying a throwing move is hidden in the sword form. It's a bit too abstract for me.

Are you saying that the 挑(TIAO) - Hooking kick (Uchi Mata in Judo) can be developed by "imagination"? It will be interested to discuss the Wudang Taiji method to develop this skill.

Does Wudang Taijiquan Sword or Taiyi Wuxing has any posture that similiar to thiis?

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/1482/leglifting.jpg

lol I know what your saying. My teacher was taught by some old schoolers that came over during the cultural revolution in China. His teacher's always told him not to limit himself on his forms. You can add almost any weapon to any form. An example of a good one most people know, would be adding double knives to the Taijiquan 24 movement form. Very deadly form with knives. If you learn Wudang, specifically Heaven and Earth Taiji Fan, remove the fan and put a narrow sword in its place. Very good form. You can do the sword forms with no sword, but using sword fingers and you have another hand fighting set. Any broadsword form can be done with the staff.. Any Narrow sword form with the cane. Also remember whenever your in light stance, thats a kick. whenever your weight is not on a leg period, it can be a kick, an example would be single whip. when you do the crane beak to the rear you can add a monkey kick to the rear as well. If the opponent attempts to grab or move in, or bends over to the monkey kick to the groin, you grab the arm and step back with the foot that was doing the monkey kick, you can use your hip to throw the opponent. When you look at the forms, dont look at the forms as the forms. Look at the forms as formless. Wudang actually has a form called the formless form that helps develop that, or you can go through the form over and over again, and think of every possibility, and it will come to you.

[tiaji1983]

Yes. Go to youtube, look up Taiyi Wuxing, Wudang Taiji sword, Dragon Qigong (if its there), Wudang Kicking Routine (if its there), Wudang Drunken Boxing, Specifically Cripple Li if it shows them individually and you will see that kick. It can also be put in the Wudang 13 Taijiquan. The 13 has a lot of "hidden" kicks, you just need to know where and how to look.

[YouKnowWho]

It can also be put in the Wudang 13 Taijiquan. The 13 has a lot of "hidden" kicks, you just need to know where and how to look.
Your approach is too abstract for me. IMO, form is for teaching and learning. It's not for training. You can't develop combat skill by solo form training. Your combat skill can only be

- developed by 2 men drills,
- tested by sparring/wrestling, and
- enhanced by solo drills (not forms) and equipment training.

[tiaji1983]

Your approach is too abstract for me. IMO, form is for teaching and learning. It's not for training. You can't develop combat skill by solo form training. Your combat skill can only be

- developed by 2 men drills,
- tested by sparring/wrestling, and
- enhanced by solo drills (not forms) and equipment training.

Where do you think the techniques come from that you use when you develop 2 man drills, sparring wrestling and enhanced solo drills and equipment training? The form is a list of techniques. They teach you how to use the movements in a fluid manner, then you deconstruct the form and make it fluid and formless. Those points you make are important and very valid, but not to be offensive, but the approach at forms is too close minded. All the techniques are in the form, some repeated or put in different areas to teach different things.

[Knifefighter]

Where do you think the techniques come from that you use when you develop 2 man drills, sparring wrestling and enhanced solo drills and equipment training? The form is a list of techniques. They teach you how to use the movements in a fluid manner, then you deconstruct the form and make it fluid and formless. Those points you make are important and very valid, but not to be offensive, but the approach at forms is too close minded. All the techniques are in the form, some repeated or put in different areas to teach different things.

Techniques come from application. Functional techniques (as compared to the theoretical, fantasy non-fighting ones that come from forms) are developed to solve specific problems encountered in real-time application.

[tiaji1983]

Very true. the applications have to be realistic and have to work or thier useless. Like I said, the form is a list of applications. There are good apps and bad apps. You take the form first, break down each movement individually, work on apps and test them. Then you experiment with the apps as thier linked in the forms, then you experiment individually with different links that pertain to the situation to make it formless. Then there are techniques and training methods that are not in the forms. You have to experiment with the applications to make them work, like you said earlier about adding the hook to slanting flying. YOU have to make the applications in the form work for you. They are not make believe if you try them out and they work.

I dont understand why this is such a hard concept for some people. Forms been around and used since TCMA started, so why do people discount the forms as useless? They are guidelines and a list of techniques that have been proven to work. Its up to the practitioner to break down the form and make it work for them.

[bawang]

the two archetypes of worthless chinese martial arts: "hua" flowery , and "tai jing" , too complicated.

[Knifefighter]

Very true. the applications have to be realistic and have to work or thier useless. Like I said, the form is a list of applications. There are good apps and bad apps. You take the form first, break down each movement individually, work on apps and test them. Then you experiment with the apps as thier linked in the forms, then you experiment individually with different links that pertain to the situation to make it formless. Then there are techniques and training methods that are not in the forms. You have to experiment with the applications to make them work, like you said earlier about adding the hook to slanting flying. YOU have to make the applications in the form work for you. They are not make believe if you try them out and they work.

I dont understand why this is such a hard concept for some people. Forms been around and used since TCMA started, so why do people discount the forms as useless? They are guidelines and a list of techniques that have been proven to work. Its up to the practitioner to break down the form and make it work for them.

Functional CMA's that actually fight don't rely on forms. Non-functional CMA's that actaully AREN'T proven rely on forms.

[tiaji1983]

Functional CMA's that actually fight don't rely on forms. Non-functional CMA's that actaully AREN'T proven rely on forms.

LOL wow. Im sorry but what???!!! all TCMA have forms. So your saying all TCMA are useless cuz they use forms? My teacher is the meanest baddest teacher in El Paso, none of the other teachers like him because they say he fights dirty, all of them respect him because hes a good fighter, and he has proven it... I plan on going out and fighting when Im done learning as well. My teacher teaches forms. His teacher Grand Master Ark Yuey Wong teaches forms. You dont use the form as it is to fight, you are formless when you fight. Just cuz your teacher didnt teach you how to break down a form doesnt mean the form is useless...

Unless Im missing your point...

[tiaji1983]

the two archetypes of worthless chinese martial arts: "hua" flowery , and "tai jing" , too complicated.

I agree :)

[Knifefighter]

LOL wow. Im sorry but what???!!! all TCMA have forms. So your saying all TCMA are useless cuz they use forms? My teacher is the meanest baddest teacher in El Paso, none of the other teachers like him because they say he fights dirty, all of them respect him because hes a good fighter, and he has proven it... I plan on going out and fighting when Im done learning as well. My teacher teaches forms. His teacher Grand Master Ark Yuey Wong teaches forms.

You mean this fooey, fantasy, non-fighting, theoretical nonsense?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHJj-wWturE

The more forms your style has, the less in touch with reality it is. Functional styles are informed by the doing. Non-functional styles are informed by the forms.


You dont use the form as it is to fight, you are formless when you fight. Just cuz your teacher didnt teach you how to break down a form doesnt mean the form is useless...

If you are learning one way, but fighting in a different manner, the technique of learning is actually less that worthless. It is counterproductive and you would have been better off not to train in the first place.

Specificity of training- google it.

[YouKnowWho]

There are good forms and there are bad forms. A punch to the east followed by a punch to the west is a bad form. A hook punch followed by a back fist, and followed by an upper cut is a good form. A good form will help you to understand how to use one move to set up another move. It will save your effort and time.

There is nothing wrong for a father to tell his 15 years boy that the most logical way to date a girl the 1st time is to:

- hold her hand,
- hug her,
- kiss her, and
- take her to bed.

Your 15 years old may eventually figure all those steps out by himself. But a father's experience will save that boy some time and effort. That's the value for a "good" form. Unfortunately, those kind of good CMA forms are so hard to come by.

[tiaji1983]

You mean this fooey, fantasy, non-fighting, theoretical nonsense?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHJj-wWturE

The more forms your style has, the less in touch with reality it is. Functional styles are informed by the doing. Non-functional styles are informed by the forms.



If you are learning one way, but fighting in a different manner, the technique of learning is actually less that worthless. It is counterproductive and you would have been better off not to train in the first place.

Specificity of training- google it.

hmm... I can see your point if your learning wushu or bull **** from your teacher. My teacher seen Grand Master Ark Yuey Wong fight. Ive heard stories of my teacher clearing out bars by himself, and heard witnesses back the stories up. I've hear from other teachers stories about my teacher. My teacher was taught many different forms and many different styles, so when he met up with those styles, he already had some knowledge of the style. He was given many styles but chose Shaolin and Hung Ga to spend the most time with. Since he knows all the styles, he can switch, and I have seen it work. So if these are the methods he learned, why wouldnt I want to learn them if I know he can fight? I cant blame you for doubting what you dont know, but if a young man comes to me and asks a question, I will give the answer. If they keep asking the same question out of ignorance, then I am abliged to answer with silence.

Now your 2nd post shows you dont understand what Im saying. I hope this will help, because I wont waist any more time on trying to explain this if you try to debunk it with irrelevant stuff as I seen my teacher fight and I know his teacher wasnt a punk, and I know Im not learning something useless and not trying to waste too much time trying to defend it on here.

Ill use Taijiquan theoretically as an example.

These can be mixxed in the process, but this is how Ill break down the learning process...
Step 1 Learn the form and stepping routines and Qigong.
a. gain health benefits and basic applications and power development
b. learn Sung, explore more advanced applications, Fa jing, break down the form on your own to learn the strikes, kicks, shuai jiao, and chin na in the forms.
c. break down the form further to learn the applications without the form. Discover the secrets, and combine applications from every form you know into one based on different situations.
Step 2 Make the form Natural
a. Further Sung, experiment with the applications you discovered from the form with a partner, learn what works and what doesnt, and how to modify them to make them work. Practice them until they just come naturally with and without a partner (without, because once you have a feel of how it works, it should be easy to keep the feel in your head when you fight against your imagination, and realize the same results with a person), and work with changing situations
b. Push hands to develop sensitivity, and learn how to yield, redirect, nuetralize, stick, counter, off balance the opponent and use the opponents force against them.
c. Work with heavy bags, dummys, and conditioning
Step 3 Make the form Yours
a. work on the 13 powers and how they relate to the forms for a deeper understanding
b. sparring and fighting
c. you no longer need the form, but continue to practice for health, and so you can remember it to teach others, and so you wont forget what you've learned.

Baby steps to reach a single goal
Or
Running before you can crawl:

Step 1 Learn the 13 powers and how to use them (not a form), Stepping routines, fajing and Qigong.
Step 2 Learn how to use them in a fight through sparring and fighting and push hands (develop bad habbits)
Step 3 Learn the forms and how the 13 powers relate, and additional applications (now have to unlearn bad habbits).

Im sure you might not agree, but thats the way I understand how the learning process works for the TCMA in a nutshell. Maybe Im missing something and only the American MMA way is worth while.

[KC Elbows]

There is nothing wrong for a father to tell his 15 years boy that the most logical way to date a girl the 1st time is to:

- hold her hand,
- hug her,
- kiss her, and
- take her to bed.



As long as he doesn't mix that form up with his hook-backfist-uppercut form, he's got a fair start.:D

[Knifefighter]

hmm... I can see your point if your learning wushu or bull **** from your teacher. My teacher seen Grand Master Ark Yuey Wong fight. Ive heard stories of my teacher clearing out bars by himself, and heard witnesses back the stories up. I've hear from other teachers stories about my teacher. My teacher was taught many different forms and many different styles, so when he met up with those styles, he already had some knowledge of the style. He was given many styles but chose Shaolin and Hung Ga to spend the most time with. Since he knows all the styles, he can switch, and I have seen it work. So if these are the methods he learned, why wouldnt I want to learn them if I know he can fight?


You don't know he can fight. You are simply believing the stories you have been told.

BTW, this kung fu master who got his arm broken in the end was an ex marine who also was a "vicious fighter who killed enemy soldiers with his bare hands"... at least that was the stories his student's and fellow instructors told before the fight:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_taQXTem_X4

[Yum Cha]

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1046869
There is nothing wrong for a father to tell his 15 years boy that the most logical way to date a girl the 1st time is to:

- hold her hand,
- hug her,
- kiss her, and
- take her to bed.

[/QUOTE]


Or the Knifefighter school - Buy the kid a hooker, throw him in and say, "Let nature take its course, son."

[YouKnowWho]

So what's the best way to train solo at home? Of course you can go to school everyday but most of the time you are still at home. Unless you have a brother that you can train with 24/7. When you are along, you may:

- work on bag,
- work on weight,
- run,
- push up,
- sit up,
- ...

When you do you shadow boxing or bag work, you can throw single punch or single kick. The moment that you throw 1, 2 combo punches, you are train a pre-defined drills. The following are the most common drills that most people train at home:

- jab, hook.
- hook, back fist.
- round house kick side kick.
- front kick, face punch.
- ...

The moment that you start to train none single move such as 2 moves combo, 3 moves combo, ..., you are training some short predesigned drills (forms). Some of your combos may come from your TCMA forms. Some of your combo may come from your combat experience. In either case, you are indeed training your solo drill (form).

Even Gung Le trained drills otherwise he won't use this combo in his fights over and over.

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/2049/2706201092556new.gif

[Knifefighter]

The moment that you start to train none single move such as 2 moves combo, 3 moves combo, ..., you are training some short predesigned drills (forms). Some of your combos may come from your TCMA forms. Some of your combo may come from your combat experience. In either case, you are indeed training your solo drill (form).

Even Gung Le trained drills otherwise he won't use this combo in his fights over and over.

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/2049/2706201092556new.gif


I'm guessing you have never fought full contact fighting because the shadow boxing one does when training for a fight is light years removed from what is done in forms.

[Dragonzbane76]

The moment that you start to train none single move such as 2 moves combo, 3 moves combo, ..., you are training some short predesigned drills (forms). Some of your combos may come from your TCMA forms. Some of your combo may come from your combat experience. In either case, you are indeed training your solo drill (form).
yeah shadow boxing is not even in the same ball field as form work.

you are throwing 2-3-4 combos etc., but you are not predetermining what they are. As forms you have a set structure.

[YouKnowWho]

yeah shadow boxing is not even in the same ball field as form work.

you are throwing 2-3-4 combos etc., but you are not predetermining what they are. As forms you have a set structure.

What's wrong with "pre-define" combo drills? 1, 2 combos such as:

- right jab, left hook,
- groin kick, face punch,
- leg catch, foot sweep,
- ...

worked for the past 1000 years. It' will still work for the next 1000 years.

[Dragonzbane76]

What's wrong with pre-define drills? A

where did i say anything was wrong with it?? I'm not a fan of it but if that's what you want is pre determined your more than welcome to it. But know it is not realistic when coming to terms with understanding fighting.

[YouKnowWho]

Not talking about fighting but solo training when there is no training partners around.

The combat skill can be

- "developed" by 2 men drills,
- "tested" by sparring/wrestling, and
- "enhanced" by solo drills, and equipment training.

The "enhancement" is what we are talking about here.

[Dragonzbane76]

enhancement is great. Just most people don't realize that "forms" are not fighting in context. Solo has many drills you can do, but when time comes to "apply" these drills in full resistance one has to understand the importance of not having pre-determined patterns.

[Knifefighter]

What's wrong with "pre-define" combo drills? 1, 2 combos such as:

- right jab, left hook,
- groin kick, face punch,
- leg catch, foot sweep,
- ...

worked for the past 1000 years. It' will still work for the next 1000 years.

It's not predefined. If you are teaching your students that way, you are teaching them incorrectly.

[Yum Cha]

It's not predefined. If you are teaching your students that way, you are teaching them incorrectly.

You're full of sh1t you crotchety old b@stard. Of course you teach them as pre defined combinations, THEN you let them work them and change them around.

Maybe you hatched out as a complete fighter, but normal human beings require training.

[YouKnowWho]

1, 2 combos such as:

- leg catch, foot sweep,
- ...

If you are teaching your students that way, you are teaching them incorrectly.

You are truly "cluless" on this subject.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2-yD8dBF5E&feature=related

[Knifefighter]

You are truly "cluless" on this subject.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2-yD8dBF5E&feature=related

That was two guys working a tech, which is how you do that.
Did you see any solo practice there? Nope.
Two people working a technique is completely different that doing a solo practice.
Proving you are clueless once again.

[Knifefighter]

You're full of sh1t you crotchety old b@stard. Of course you teach them as pre defined combinations, THEN you let them work them and change them around.

Maybe you hatched out as a complete fighter, but normal human beings require training.

You teach them in actual application with a partner. You don't teach them as solo work.

Dumb@ss fool.

[Scott R. Brown]

You teach them in actual application with a partner. You don't teach them as solo work.

Dumb@ss fool.

Actually, you do both!

[Knifefighter]

Actually, you do both!

If you do both, you probably make learning it functionally harder.

[Scott R. Brown]

If you do both, you probably make learning it functionally harder.

Not in the least. There is no way solo drills make anything functionally harder as long as you practice the movements as you would do in reality and not like how most kung fu forms are practiced.

[Yum Cha]

Not in the least. There is no way solo drills make anything functionally harder as long as you practice the movements as you would do in reality and not like how most kung fu forms are practiced.

And, its a linear progression, you start with slow, move to fast, move to hard, move to live play, move to hard live play, etc....

Once you have the tech down, and can apply it in a lively manner, you do whatever you need to to make it work better. Structure, practice, application, a virtuous circle, and as individual as each fighter.

Once you become elite, YOU know what needs work, and that's expected. The challenges may become fewer, and harder, fair enough. But the fundamental principle of training is to break down complex things into small elements, then to recombine it to a higher level.

There are many stages and tools in training, its not static IMHO.