PDA

View Full Version : Northern Choi Lei Fut



soulfist
09-06-2010, 11:09 AM
Ive heard over the years many times that Choi Lei Fut is unique in the fact that it is the only style that claims to be both a Northern and a Southern style in terms of its roots. Im not sure if the style every has reached the north but probably not. However the construct of the style does indicate smoother flow and structure indicative of northern styles. In my opinion. And yes there are so many northern weapons in the arsenal too.

I hope not to bring too much history into this but does anyone know what the Northern distinction arose from? Was one of the predecessors a northern stylist?

soulfist
09-06-2010, 11:37 AM
I found this old article called "Northern Choy Li Fut"

JAZA
09-06-2010, 01:47 PM
I think his article is referring to Buk Sing CLF.

But seaking of your point, there is a lot of northern on CLF specially on the internal, you can see even Taoist influence.

hskwarrior
09-06-2010, 10:00 PM
joseph,

what does chan yiu chi's manual say about tthis?

extrajoseph
09-07-2010, 02:59 AM
Hi Frank,

What I have access to, Chan Yiu-Chi's writing made no distinction between northern and southern, but then I don't have access to all his documents, nor do I have any access to Koon-Pak or Chan Heung's manuscripts either, so I cannot give you a definite answer from Chan family point of view, may be they don't divide their kung Fu into northern and southern like we tried to do these days.

Within CLF, some people these days also tried to divide it into King Mui CLF, Kong Men CLF, Guangzhou CLF, Futsan CLF, Northern CLF, Souther CLF, Chan Family and Whatever Family CLF, etc. etc. But at the end of the day it is still CLF.

So there you go, Frank, through your hard-earned research, you now have Chinese Masonic CLF
洪(門永)勝蔡李佛!

Congratulations Grandmaster Frank, you are now the founder of a new style or a new branch of CLF! We can now all kowtow to you, Grandmaster Frank.

XJ

PS: I hope you can take a joke brother Frank, I am just try to get a point across - CLF is CLF, we are family, so don't try to divide it, it will be bad for all of us. We are like a big old tree, cut all the branches and the roots off and the tree will die.

bawang
09-07-2010, 05:32 AM
i dont like how choy lee fut makes up forms and names it after famous northern styles. like plum flower and luohan boxing.

extrajoseph
09-07-2010, 06:18 AM
Hi ba wang,

What you are saying is a bit like accusing the southern Chinese copied their surname with the same "Wang" belonging to the northern Chinese!

Could it be that both kung fu shared the same source and origin, cultural, geographical, philosophical and religious wise (ie. Buddhist Shaolin as in "Fut" in Choy Lee Fut)? Hence the similar names are passed down.

XJ

hskwarrior
09-07-2010, 06:58 AM
oh yes, i can take a joke brother Joseph. for the most part, our little debates are always very amusing to me.

However, funny or not,Chan Heung is/was one of our brothers in Hung Mun. interestingly enough, neither Koon Pak nor Chan Yiu Chi were not according to the Chan Family sources i have.

the Hung Mun was a HUUUUUUGGGGGEEEEE part of southern Chinese life. More than 75 percent of the men there changed their names to include the Hung name in it. And, for Chan Heung's Choy Lee Fut, and Jeung Hung Sing's version of Choy Lee Fut the connection to the Hung Mun is far far far more than just the type of bow we perform. The pattern of the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon can be superimposed over the Hung Character and you will see that mixed with the Hung Mun Bow that it PERFECTLY FITS...PERFECTLY.

What we all know as gung fu techniques are also secret hand signals for the Hung Mun as they were representative of things like the 5 Ancestors, their beliefs, and much much more.

bawang
09-07-2010, 06:58 AM
being inspired is ok. when u push it and name "dai lohan" "siu lohan" "dai muifa" "siu muifa" u cross the line. because thats not only very specific northern styles, thats very specific northern forms.

hskwarrior
09-07-2010, 07:01 AM
Could it be that both kung fu shared the same source and origin, cultural, geographical, philosophical and religious wise (ie. Buddhist Shaolin as in "Fut" in Choy Lee Fut)? Hence the similar names are passed down.

For the Chan Family of CLF the word FUT is used in a religious sense while FUT in Jeung Hung Sing's lineage is representative of FUT GAR KUEN as passed down from the monk/ hung mun co-founder "Ching Cho".

sho'nuff
09-07-2010, 07:27 AM
peace everyone!

i have trained a little choy lay fut in atlanta and canada and it is a cool style. but wouldnt wuzuquan/ngo cho be considered a northern and southern mixed style also?
no where i have read calls it that but being that it is a mixture of 5 styles(6 really) and 3 of the styles is taizu long fist, shaolin louhan, and monkey foot work from hou quan? im not really sure tho. any insight would be great!

extrajoseph
09-07-2010, 07:28 AM
being inspired is ok. when u push it and name "dai lohan" "siu lohan" "dai muifa" "siu muifa" u cross the line. because thats not only very specific northern styles, thats very specific northern forms.

What line have we crossed? Who drew up this line? Muifa is a Chinese national symbol and Luohan is a Buddhist term. Many Chinese have the same names, have they crossed THE line as well? LOL.

extrajoseph
09-07-2010, 07:33 AM
For the Chan Family of CLF the word FUT is used in a religious sense while FUT in Jeung Hung Sing's lineage is representative of FUT GAR KUEN as passed down from the monk/ hung mun co-founder "Ching Cho".

Hi Frank,

"Fut" in CLF stands for the Buddhist Shaolin Temple where our MA came from, it is neither religious nor personal. CLF has a lot of Daoist and Confucian, as a philosophy and not as a religion, influence as well.

XJ

hskwarrior
09-07-2010, 07:36 AM
YEAH..... :eek: in YOUR lineage. For us, it is used to represent the Fut Gar in our Gung Fu not a Buddhist connection.

extrajoseph
09-07-2010, 07:39 AM
However, funny or not,Chan Heung is/was one of our brothers in Hung Mun. interestingly enough, neither Koon Pak nor Chan Yiu Chi were not according to the Chan Family sources i have.



Hi Frank,

As far as I know, Chan Heung and his family assisted in the revolutionary cause of the Hung Mun but they were never a member, however many of their disciples and students were, even up to present days, for example Li Iu-Ling, who just passed away a few years ago, was a member of Sydney's Ji Kung Tong.

XJ

hskwarrior
09-07-2010, 07:49 AM
As far as I know, Chan Heung and his family assisted in the revolutionary cause of the Hung Mun but they were never a member, however many of their disciples and students were, even up to present days, for example Li Iu-Ling, who just passed away a few years ago, was a member of Sydney's Ji Kung Tong.

XJ

oh, ok. many of the chan family sites say that Chan Heung was a "4-2-6." This can't be unless he was initiated into the Hung Mun....which in southern China was controlled by the Green Grass Monk.

See, aside from history, I love ALL choy lee fut. But, i love my brothers from the Hung Mun family even more. Choy Lee Fut's three major branches (Chan, Hung Sing, Buk Sing) have all played major parts in the Hung Mun. In Hong Kong, the Dragon Head of the Hung Mun was a Buk Sing Guy. Our CLF brothers in Canada are also part of the family.

its good to know that Li Iu Ling was also a brother. I wonder if he got the traditional Hung Mun send off at his funeral. My Sigung got it, i wasn't there at the parlor to witness it but from what i hear it was AWESOME to behold.

Ji / Ghee / Chee.......its all the same. We use Ghee Kung Tong. Joseph, the Green Grass Monk is the original founder of the Ghee Kung Tong in Canton and Guangxie...but it went by another name originally. then had to change the name.

extrajoseph
09-07-2010, 07:52 AM
YEAH..... :eek: in YOUR lineage. For us, it is used to represent the Fut Gar in our Gung Fu not a Buddhist connection.

Hi Frank,

What Chan Heung learned from his uncle Chan Yuan-Wu is also called Fut Gar, so there is already an earlier Fut Gar connection in our kung fu, and that "Fut" is also referred to the Shaolin Temple, and not Chan himself, because a person cannot be regarded as a "Fut" (a Buddha), it (Fut Gar) would have a to mean a family of Buddhists, ie. a Buddhist temple like Shaolin.

XJ

hskwarrior
09-07-2010, 07:56 AM
Well, you know that COULD....and thats a small COULD.....be true. Fut Gar was a generic term used for Shaolin gung fu. And, its been said that the 5 Ancestors of the Hung Mun all studied Fut Gar Kuen.

Now, joseph, you may be able to answer this. compared to Fukien, is King Mui north? The reason i ask is because the first co-founder of the Hung Mun Tsai Te Chung changed his name to Chan Yuen. I wonder if this could be Chan Yuen Wu.....what does the WU in his name mean?

extrajoseph
09-07-2010, 08:02 AM
oh, ok. many of the chan family sites say that Chan Heung was a "4-2-6." This can't be unless he was initiated into the Hung Mun....which in southern China was controlled by the Green Grass Monk.


Hi Frank,

If Chan Heung was Hung Mun member, then it would have been recorded in the family archive, it is too important a record to miss out. If what Jung Ah-Yim has learned before he met Chan Heung was recorded (Hung Kuen) then what he has learned afterward would also be recorded, but there is no mention of this.

XJ

hskwarrior
09-07-2010, 08:07 AM
Hi Frank,

If Chan Heung was Hung Mun member, then it would have been recorded in the family archive, it is too important a record to miss out. If what Jung Ah-Yim has learned before he met Chan Heung was recorded (Hung Kuen) then what he has learned afterward would also be recorded, but there is no mention of this.

XJ

Actually, IF chan heung was a member of the Hung Mun in those days the military or local law enforcement suspected him of being a member, searched his home and found his family archives claiming him as a Hung Mun member it would have been the INSTANT death of Chan Heung and possibly his entire family out of suspicion alone.

Chan Heung NEVER recorded that Jeung Hung Sing or his father was anything near Hung Kuen. if Chan Yiu Chi wrote that down he was incorrect. that right there is an obvious sign of what he was trying to accomplish.

extrajoseph
09-07-2010, 08:12 AM
Now, joseph, you may be able to answer this. compared to Fukien, is King Mui north? The reason i ask is because the first co-founder of the Hung Mun Tsai Te Chung changed his name to Chan Yuen. I wonder if this could be Chan Yuen Wu.....what does the WU in his name mean?

Hi Frank,

Wu means to care for and to protect, especially the plants, because the character has a "bamboo" radical on the top, they were farmers.

XJ

hskwarrior
09-07-2010, 08:29 AM
Joseph,

Chan Yiu Chi had nothing to draw from in regards to Jeung Hung Sing being in his family archives aside from the fact that JHS returned to Fut San in 1867 to re-open his own school. So, Chan Yiu Chi had to rely on some other source of information to begin his quest of furthering his family's school/family archive.

With people like Yuen Hai, Lau Bun, Chan Ngau Sing, Tong Sek, Qian Wei Fang, Ho Cherng, Tam Sam, Jew Leong, Chui Cheung, Wu Qin, Linag Hui Hua, and so on all continuing on in their Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut knew their own family history. NONE of what they passed on comes close to what Chan Yiu Chi was trying to spread.

I STILL don't get why you are trying to get me to trust an outside source rather than the original source?

It must make you wonder why elders of both the Fut San and Buk Sing lineages REJECT Chan Yiu Chi's account of OUR history, don't it? So, i'll TRUST in their discretion and just use what you are telling me as a sideline type of reference.

But, if Jeung Hung Sing was a hardcore student of JUST Chan Heung....WHY is there NO visible connection within the Fut San Hung Sing lineage in regards to the Chan Family? We DON'T have the same type of Hoi Jong's nor the material found in them. NONE of our sets share the MUI FA, or Lohan or ANY of the sets the Chan Family branch teaches.

hskwarrior
09-07-2010, 08:43 AM
In the past and i'm sure that we will get this again in the future, the FUT SAN HUNG SING KWOON was been ridiculed, insulted, accused of lying about our history, and made to feel like we are the red headed step child when it comes to the Chan Family branch.

I know you will come up with an awesome answer. Well, my question to you joseph is this. "Aside from sharing the bare basics of Chan Heung's Choy Lee Fut, we have nothing else in common. From the Hung Sing name 洪勝, the hoi jong, the forms, usage, flow, feel, essence, etc., it is clear that there is NO visible connection to the Chan Family branch of Choy Lee Fut and we don't practice ANYTHING found in the Chan Family aside from the pure basics, then what are we practicing?"

How about this...HUNG SING KUEN...aka....HUNG SING CHOY LEE FUT as founded and created by Jeung Hung Sing?

I mean, we don't teach the 5 wheel horse or fist form, no Mui Fa forms, no lohan or any of your internal forms, our sup ji, kau da, and Ping Kuen's are completely completely different. EVERYTHING taught in Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon is different than what you find in Chan Family. WHY IS THAT?"

extrajoseph
09-07-2010, 09:25 AM
Actually, IF chan heung was a member of the Hung Mun in those days the military or local law enforcement suspected him of being a member, searched his home and found his family archives claiming him as a Hung Mun member it would have been the INSTANT death of Chan Heung and possibly his entire family out of suspicion alone.

Chan Heung NEVER recorded that Jeung Hung Sing or his father was anything near Hung Kuen. if Chan Yiu Chi wrote that down he was incorrect. that right there is an obvious sign of what he was trying to accomplish.

Hi Frank,

It would have been recorded in coded language somehow and that is why we know what activity he was involved with and why he has to flee overseas to avoid persecution. By Chan Yiu-Chi's time it was safe to write about it.

XJ

hskwarrior
09-07-2010, 09:28 AM
Yeah yeah yeah!!!!! :d

soulfist
09-07-2010, 10:05 AM
So Chan Yiu Chi didnt carry on the knowledge of Chan Koon Pak and Chan Heung? If he did then shouldnt he have passed on info about a Northern influence or component to the style?

Ive never heard of another style keeping "family archives" like Choi Lei Fut does, supposedly. Other styles have already put forth their historical writings for the betterment of the style so that its clansmen could have and share their own heritage. Why should someone join the school if the real information is kept sealed and not given out? The only reason to withhold something of that nature would be for political reasons it seems. Is there any plans for these unseen precious manuscripts to be published for promotion and preservation?

hskwarrior
09-07-2010, 10:16 AM
where did you go joseph? just when it was getting good!!!!!!

soulfist
09-07-2010, 10:26 AM
i dont like how choy lee fut makes up forms and names it after famous northern styles. like plum flower and luohan boxing.

being inspired is ok. when u push it and name "dai lohan" "siu lohan" "dai muifa" "siu muifa" u cross the line. because thats not only very specific northern styles, thats very specific northern forms.

The names "lohan" and "plum flower" are not in southern styles? Do a bit of research first friend!


Lung Ying: an advanced form called "chat dim mui fa" meaning 7 points of the plumflower
Fut Ga: one of their 3 forms is called "daai lohan keun"
Lama: has both Siu Lohan and Daai Lohan Keun
Hak Fu: the training post practice called "mui fa jong"
Mui Fa Keun: a style called "plum flower fist" from Fujian
Bak Mei: famous technique called "lohan disrobes"
Hung Fut: one fist form called "lohan keun" and one staff form called "mui fa gwun"
Wu Dip Paai: an advanced form called "lohan gwai jung" meaning the lohan returns
Etc...



All these styles are southern in origin and I could list very many more examples. These names are not exclusive to northern styles. Few know the functional differences between northern and southern styles beyond trivial things like this!

extrajoseph
09-07-2010, 11:22 AM
I mean, we don't teach the 5 wheel horse or fist form, no Mui Fa forms, no lohan or any of your internal forms, our sup ji, kau da, and Ping Kuen's are completely completely different. EVERYTHING taught in Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon is different than what you find in Chan Family. WHY IS THAT?"

Hi Frank,

I can think of at least four reasons:

1) JAY most likely to have taught the same forms as King Mui in the beginning, but over time he might have decided to change the curriculum to suit the needs of his students, for example, Ng Lun Ma and Ng Lun Chui might have combined into one form to fast-track the beginners.

2) JAY might not have learned all the forms, since Chan Heung's time, it was deliberately separated out the teachings so everyone has to co-operate with each other if they want to know the lot, Chan Yiu-chi did the same thing with his 3 inner groups of disciples.

3) New form might have been invented by the 2nd and 3rd generation Chan Family, for example Koon Pak invented the Copper Man Dummy and Yiu Chi invented the CLF Tai Git Kuen (Taijiquan), I bet you don't know this.

4) There was a long break in Futsan CLF, the new generation might have wanted to break away from the King Mui influence and put together their own forms with new names to stand apart, politics, politics, as they say.... They even deliberately high-lighted the fact that there is no picture of Chan Heung in the Futsan training halls, not knowing there were never any, not in King Mui, not in Kong Men nor in Guangzhou, because Chan Heung did not want to glorify his own image, it was only until the 50s when Li Yiu Ling's student painted a picture in oil based on a past charcoal sketch that people got into the habit of showing his picture.

I know you will reject all these reasons because you want to believe and you are being sold that Futsan and JAY is different, but that is not true, we belong to the same stem, the same roots and branches. It only shows externally in stylistic differences but not in the inner essence of CLF. When it gets to the hard-core we are all the same.

XJ

extrajoseph
09-07-2010, 11:39 AM
So Chan Yiu Chi didnt carry on the knowledge of Chan Koon Pak and Chan Heung? If he did then shouldnt he have passed on info about a Northern influence or component to the style?

Ive never heard of another style keeping "family archives" like Choi Lei Fut does, supposedly. Other styles have already put forth their historical writings for the betterment of the style so that its clansmen could have and share their own heritage. Why should someone join the school if the real information is kept sealed and not given out? The only reason to withhold something of that nature would be for political reasons it seems. Is there any plans for these unseen precious manuscripts to be published for promotion and preservation?

Hi Soulfist,

CLF, as some "separatists" would say, is a northern style practiced by the southerners, so what is there for Chan Yiu-Chi to add? Northern and southern has no meaning on a broader scale.

There are plans to selectively publish the manuscripts minus the personal historical details, some of the history and kuen-pos are out there already:

http://www.chinachoyleefut.com/

Click onto 拳谱 and you will see them in Chinese.

XJ

Dragkin
09-07-2010, 11:56 AM
Its always interesting to read you two argue. Pick up some interesting little bits of information about history on both sides, and whether one side is right or wrong, it does paint a colorful picture of CLF history, as well as its relation to chinese history and culture.

hskwarrior
09-07-2010, 11:58 AM
) JAY most likely to have taught the same forms as King Mui in the beginning, but over time he might have decided to change the curriculum to suit the needs of his students, for example, Ng Lun Ma and Ng Lun Chui might have combined into one form to fast-track the beginners.

Now, according to my chan fam sources, not all forms were created by Chan Heung. So, between 1836 and 1841, what were the forms that Chan Heung created? Ng Lun Ma? and Ng Lun Choy?


2) JAY might not have learned all the forms, since Chan Heung's time, it was deliberately separated out the teachings so everyone has to co-operate with each other if they want to know the lot, Chan Yiu-chi did the same thing with his 3 inner groups of disciples.

The reason he never learned all the forms was because he was only training UNDER chan heung for the first 5 years of CLF's creation.


3) New form might have been invented by the 2nd and 3rd generation Chan Family, for example Koon Pak invented the Copper Man Dummy and Yiu Chi invented the CLF Tai Git Kuen (Taijiquan), I bet you don't know this.


New forms were being created by chan heung's disciples and they actually shared their personal new forms with other CLF masters. and NO, i didn't know that. why? its because the COPPER MAN DUMMY and CLF TAI KIT KUEN is NOT part of the Hung Sing curriculum.


4) There was a long break in Futsan CLF, the new generation might have wanted to break away from the King Mui influence and put together their own forms with new names to stand apart. They even deliberately high-lighted the fact that there is no picture of Chan Heung in the Futsan training halls, not knowing there were never any, not in King Mui, not in Kong Men nor in Guangzhou, because Chan Heung did not want to glorify his own image, it was only until the 50s when Li Yiu Ling's student painted a picture in oil based on a past charcoal sketch that people got into the habit of showing his picture.

Than picture is NOT of Chan Heung. there IS NO picture of Chan Heung in existence.

I know you won't but i'd like to hear your version why there was a long break or break away on a deeper level. why did we want to break away?

soulfist
09-07-2010, 12:05 PM
Not interested in the argument but in the comments. Extrajoseph, you seem to have a belittling tone in your references. It may not be my place but I feel compelled to retort...



1) JAY most likely to have taught the same forms as King Mui in the beginning, but over time he might have decided to change the curriculum to suit the needs of his students, for example, Ng Lun Ma and Ng Lun Chui might have combined into one form to fast-track the beginners.
1) Combining Ng Lun Ma and Ng Lun Keun into a fast track (I assume you mean Che Keun) for beginners? Like a lesser version is what your saying it seems. Ng Lun Ma trains division of the body, which is supposed to be trained from the very foundation to work as a whole! Every other style does this, and I dont believe CLF has a figured out a key that all others has missed in that. No, Che Keun is the intelligent way to build the foundation, not dead static stances with body division, but unity to develop the methods and principles of not only CLF but of kung fu right from the outset.



2) JAY might not have learned all the forms, since Chan Heung's time, it was deliberately separated out the teachings so everyone has to co-operate with each other if they want to know the lot, Chan Yiu-chi did the same thing with his 3 inner groups of disciples.
2) Chan Heung gave a bit to everyone in order to get them to cooperate to get the full teachings? No, thats far too eccentric a concept! I mean, if that was the case as you say then those students of Chan Heung who didnt cooperate with Jeung Yim didnt get his portion of the art either! That would mean they are all incomplete without Jeung's CLF! CLF, of Chan or Jeung, doesnt exist in the forms but in the principles! Jeung Yim learned all that was Choi Lei Fut, the DNA of the concept. Later, Taam Saam did the same and with only 3 forms!



3) New form might have been invented by the 2nd and 3rd generation Chan Family, for example Koon Pak invented the Copper Man Dummy and Yiu Chi invented the CLF Tai Git Kuen (Taijiquan), I bet you don't know this.
3) New and unknown forms were created by Chan Yiu Chi and other snd and 3rd generations? I see how convenient it is for the "family manuscripts" to be kept private. Things like this can be brought up when necessary and hard to deny as its the first time for anyone to hear it. Convenient.



4) There was a long break in Futsan CLF, the new generation might have wanted to break away from the King Mui influence and put together their own forms with new names to stand apart. They even deliberately high-lighted the fact that there is no picture of Chan Heung in the Futsan training halls, not knowing there were never any, not in King Mui, not in Kong Men nor in Guangzhou, because Chan Heung did not want to glorify his own image, it was only until the 50s when Li Yiu Ling's student painted a picture in oil based on a past charcoal sketch that people got into the habit of showing his picture.
XJ
4) There was a break in Futshan but there wasnt a break in Choi Lei Fut! Whether there was a guy sitting in the hall for decades, or left for a sandwich and came back later is irrelevant. The practice was unbroken by several strings of lineages who took it back later.
I do find what you said honorable about Chan Heung not wanting to glorify his own image with his own portrait... to bad later generations didnt respect the wishes of the founder!

bawang
09-07-2010, 12:06 PM
The names "lohan" and "plum flower" are not in southern styles? Do a bit of research first friend!



All these styles are southern in origin and I could list very many more examples. These names are not exclusive to northern styles. Few know the functional differences between northern and southern styles beyond trivial things like this!

meiha and lohan were huge boxing sects in the north. im talking mainland kung fu here not chinatown kung fu. all u showed is guangdong kung fu likes to name its forms after famous styles. im saying i dont like that its dishonest.

hskwarrior
09-07-2010, 12:06 PM
Its always interesting to read you two argue. Pick up some interesting little bits of information about history on both sides, and whether one side is right or wrong, it does paint a colorful picture of CLF history, as well as its relation to chinese history and culture.

Choy Lee Fut's history as a whole which includes all three major branches is extremely awesome. Don't know much or heard much about chan heung's activities, but the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon has some incredible pieces of history to talk about.

extrajoseph
09-07-2010, 12:07 PM
Than picture is NOT of Chan Heung. there IS NO picture of Chan Heung in existence.


Hi Frank,

How do you know?

Besides, there is no picture of Jesus Christ either, how they are everywhere? What are you trying to tell me?

XJ

extrajoseph
09-07-2010, 12:09 PM
I know you won't but i'd like to hear your version why there was a long break or break away on a deeper level. why did we want to break away?

Hi Frank,

Try the 3 P's: Profit, Power and Politics.

XJ

hskwarrior
09-07-2010, 12:18 PM
Hi Frank,

Try the 3 P's: Profit, Power and Politics.

XJ

Jeung Hung Sing trained under Chan Heung from the age of 12 to 17 years old (1836-1841). After completing his training with Ching Cho in 1849 he went to Fut San and opened his school. for the next two years he opened MANY MANY MANY hung sing kwoon's in Fut San training the members for the Tai Ping Rebellion in 1851. From 1851 to someone around 1864-1867 Jeung Hung Sing returned to Chan Heung, shared what he learned from CHING CHO then went back to Fut San in 1867.

Jeung Hung Sing was busy training his students, developing his fighting method, and constantly on the run from Law Enforcement. After returning to Fut San, he didn't continue his learning from Chan Heung. He was busy running his many schools and fighting.

Your 3 P's sound more like "Poop, Poopie, and PHALSE!!!!! hahahah

hskwarrior
09-07-2010, 12:20 PM
Hi Frank,

How do you know?

Besides, there is no picture of Jesus Christ either, how they are everywhere? What are you trying to tell me?

XJ

It doesn't matter how i know. but, even the Chan Yong Fa lineage knows that the image shown to be chan heung is NOT really him but a guestimation of the possibility of when he might look like based on Chan Koon Pak.

sorry to bust your bubble BUB!!!! and actually, the Shroud of Torin gives an awesome look at what Jesus looked like.

soulfist
09-07-2010, 12:28 PM
meiha and lohan were huge boxing sects in the north. im talking mainland kung fu here not chinatown kung fu. all u showed is guangdong kung fu likes to name its forms after famous styles. im saying i dont like that its dishonest.
Really? Maybe you know something I dont know then. What were these 2 sects, and when was the founding roughly? Is there a mention as to the meaning or significance of those names?

Off the top of my head...

Lohan as a style there are 3 main ones from the north:
1) Mai Jong Lohan Mun - of Fok Yuen Gap (founder of Ching Wu)
2) Ying Yi Lohan Mun - of Tong
3) Lohan Mun - of Suen Yuk Tong (5 Provinces Broadsword King)

Mui Fa as a style I know of:
1) Mui Fa Mantis, and Mui Fa Taiji Mantis
2) Northern Shaolin Mui Fa Keun
3) Mui Fa Jeung (plum flower palm)


I know the history and meaning of those styles quite closely. So, what do you have to support that it is dishonest for Choi Lei Fut to use the names of Mui Fa and Lohan?

extrajoseph
09-07-2010, 12:52 PM
sorry to bust your bubble BUB!!!! and actually, the Shroud of Torin gives an awesome look at what Jesus looked like.

14th-century relic

The Shroud of Turin has been carbon dated not to the time of Christ but instead to the 14th century—perhaps not coincidentally about the time when the first record of the burial cloth appears. If the Turin Shroud really is the most important holy relic in history, it seems curious that its existence was unknown for 1,300 years.

Instead of accepting the fact that the shroud's cloth is far too new to have existed around the time of Jesus, advocates have challenged the carbon dating science, offering various reasons why the test was flawed.

They claim, for example, that contamination and/or the effects of a fire must have led to an incorrect date. Yet these effects would have only increased the margin of error by a few hundred years—not a millennium and a half. These claims would carry more weight if other (supposedly non-contaminated) parts of the shroud had been dated back 2,000 years, but no part of it is older than about 600 years.

The numbers just don't add up.

Last year an Italian scientist and his team replicated the Shroud of Turin with materials and tools available at the time of the shroud's origin. Luigi Garlaschelli, a professor of chemistry at the University of Pavia, used linen identical to that on the shroud, made an impression over a volunteer's face and body, and artificially aged the cloth with heat. Garlaschelli's reproduction did not conclusively prove that the Shroud of Turin is a fake, but it did disprove the claim that the image is scientifically unexplainable and could not have been made by human hands.

Fakes and contradictions

There's another very good reason to suspect that the Shroud of Turin is a fake: the forger admitted it. As shroud researcher Joe Nickell noted in his book "Relics of the Christ," a document by "Bishop Pierre d'Arcis claimed that the shroud had been 'cunningly painted,' a fact 'attested by the artist who painted it.'" Not only did Bishop d'Arcis attest to knowing that the shroud was a fake in 1390, but even Pope Clement acknowledged the forgery.

hskwarrior
09-07-2010, 12:54 PM
oh so you haven't watched the most recent documentary then huh? it will make you cry if you believe in jesus. uh, yeah, i suggest you watch the new one.

extrajoseph
09-07-2010, 01:03 PM
Hi Frank,

It figures, if you based your so-called historical research on faith, then nothing can argue against it. The bottom line is you don't know, but you believed in what the Futsan elders told you, so what can I say? It sure makes me want to cry, you are treating CLF like a religion rather than a martial art.

XJ

soulfist
09-07-2010, 01:03 PM
So... no one knows the northern connection of Choi Lei Fut huh.

hskwarrior
09-07-2010, 01:06 PM
Southern hand northern legs? is that what you're referring to?

extrajoseph
09-07-2010, 01:07 PM
What do you mean by "the northern connection of Choi Lei Fut"?

hskwarrior
09-07-2010, 01:09 PM
Hi Frank,

It figures, if you based your so-called historical research on faith, then nothing can argue against it. The bottom line is you don't know, but you believed in what the Futsan elders told you, so what can I say? It sure makes me want to cry, you are treating CLF like a religion rather than a martial art.

XJ

yet here you are with YOUR BLIND FAITH that somehow Chan Yiu Chi would know more about my own lineage than the elders from it. Chan Yiu Chi wasn't part of my lineage.....he wouldn't know anything aside from what we told him.

you still haven't touched upon the fact that all the major elders within the Hung Sing/Buk Sing lineages REJECT chan yiu chi's account. miss me with the three P's.

hskwarrior
09-07-2010, 01:12 PM
Joseph,

You know the chan family of CLF isn't the only one with information about the other branch that are too controversial to post. like whether or not Chan Heung knew gung fu at all when Jeung Hung Sing came into the picture. But im not opening that right now.

Violent Designs
09-07-2010, 01:17 PM
Joseph,

You know the chan family of CLF isn't the only one with information about the other branch that are too controversial to post. like whether or not Chan Heung knew gung fu at all when Jeung Hung Sing came into the picture. But im not opening that right now.

Chan Heung learned gungfu AFTER Jeung Hung Sing?

hskwarrior
09-07-2010, 01:20 PM
hahahaha....I'm not going there brother. just showing brother Joseph that the chan fam isn't the only one with controversial accounts.

Violent Designs
09-07-2010, 01:21 PM
hahahaha....I'm not going there brother. just showing brother Joseph that the chan fam isn't the only one with controversial accounts.

talk on facebook.

extrajoseph
09-07-2010, 01:21 PM
you still haven't touched upon the fact that all the major elders within the Hung Sing/Buk Sing lineages REJECT chan yiu chi's account. miss me with the three P's.

Hi Frank,

No need to answer this one because it is only a modern position (and only a small number) and that is because of the 3 Ps. Of course you missed it because you believed in these elders words, even though they don't have any evidence, and I can't argue against prejudice born out of your misguided faith, I can only argue from the point of historical timing and records.

XJ

hskwarrior
09-07-2010, 01:28 PM
No need to answer this one because it is only a modern position and that is because of the 3 Ps.

the late grand elder Lun Chee was approached by Wu Van Cheuk with material that was all draped in yellow fancy cloth and when he showed it to the elder he felt Wu Van Cheuk was trying push rubbish and was given an ear full.

Now Wu Van Cheuk was indeed a student of Chan Ngau Sing and after the latter passed he was an interim Manager of the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon but was removed for whatever reasons. this might be the time when he went over to the Chan Family of CLF.

So anyways, what else you got joseph?

hskwarrior
09-07-2010, 01:29 PM
oh...ALSO....joseph, WHAT WAS CHAN YIU CHI'S EVIDENCE ABOUT JEUNG HUNG SING?

THE ONLY HISTORICAL TIMING THAT IS WRONG IN THIS CASE IS CHAN YIU CHI'S ACCOUNT OF THE HUNG SING KWOON FOUNDER JEUNG HUNG SING.

extrajoseph
09-07-2010, 01:32 PM
the late grand elder Lun Chee was approached by Wu Van Cheuk with material that was all draped in yellow fancy cloth and when he showed it to the elder he felt Wu Van Cheuk was trying push rubbish and was given an ear full.

Now Wu Van Cheuk was indeed a student of Chan Ngau Sing and after the latter passed he was an interim Manager of the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon but was removed for whatever reasons. this might be the time when he went over to the Chan Family of CLF.

So anyways, what else you got joseph?

Sorry Frank,

I don't any gossips or innuendoes.

XJ

hskwarrior
09-07-2010, 01:39 PM
HAHAHAHA....sure. but you've failed in your quest to make the hung sing lineage look bad this time.

extrajoseph
09-07-2010, 01:46 PM
HAHAHAHA....sure. but you've failed in your quest to make the hung sing lineage look bad this time.

Hi Frank,

Never intended to make anyone look bad, least of you. :p :D

XJ

David Jamieson
09-07-2010, 01:52 PM
Buk Sing Choy Li Fut is what the article is about. I guess they went with the english translation and that caused the confusion?

hskwarrior
09-07-2010, 01:52 PM
you can't make me look bad. im not the one who switched gears to start believing that Choy Fook's Shaolin Temple name was Ching Cho! hahahaha Now that is funny.

the fact that your branch tried to claim the name of CHING CHO was a buddhist one is mad funny to me.

hskwarrior
09-07-2010, 02:19 PM
what was chan yiu chi's evidence about jeung hung sing?

Chan Yiu Chi wrote down the oral traditions. You say he has lots of info on Jeung Hung Sing. what is the evidence? Where did the evidence come from? if i am to even consider believing what he has to offer i at least want to know the source of Chan Yiu Chi's information in regards to my own lineage.

extrajoseph
09-07-2010, 02:50 PM
you can't make me look bad. im not the one who switched gears to start believing that Choy Fook's Shaolin Temple name was Ching Cho! hahahaha Now that is funny.

the fact that your branch tried to claim the name of CHING CHO was a buddhist one is mad funny to me.

Hi Frank,

Chan Yiu-Chi wrote this from his family records long before Ching Cho was introduced as one of JAY's teachers, it was a one-liner in a large body of work and no one would have noticed it if Ching Cho did not become a subject of controversy. You made it out as though he knew what would happen after he died.

XJ

extrajoseph
09-07-2010, 02:57 PM
what was chan yiu chi's evidence about jeung hung sing?

Chan Yiu Chi wrote down the oral traditions. You say he has lots of info on Jeung Hung Sing. what is the evidence? Where did the evidence come from? if i am to even consider believing what he has to offer i at least want to know the source of Chan Yiu Chi's information in regards to my own lineage.

Hi Frank,

The source of Chan Yiu-Chi's information would have came from his father who lived at the time of JAY as well as his grandfather Chan Heung did earlier, they both knew JAY quite well, so his source was not that far away.

XJ

hskwarrior
09-07-2010, 02:57 PM
hahahahahahahahahahahah......
hahahahahahahahahahahaha.....
hahahahahahahahahahahahah.....

hskwarrior
09-07-2010, 03:00 PM
Hi Frank,

Chan Yiu-Chi wrote this from his family records long before Ching Cho was introduced as one of JAY's teachers, it was a one-liner in a large body of work and no one would have noticed it if Ching Cho did not become a subject of controversy. You made it out as though he knew what would happen after he died.

XJ
Reply With Quote

So you're trying to tell me that Yuen Hai, Chan Sing, Lui Chun, Lee Yan and other well known sifu of our branch knew nothing of their teachers teacher? are you really trying to pass that off on me?

hskwarrior
09-07-2010, 03:04 PM
when it comes to the Fut San Hung Sing branch of Choy Lee Fut that Jeung Hung Sing founded, our oral traditions are far more trust worthy than your OUTSIDE SOURCE. Just as you do with your branch, we rely on our branch for our own history.

Unless we ask you for your version, i know that the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon will not rely on Chan Yiu Chi's account.

extrajoseph
09-07-2010, 03:22 PM
So you're trying to tell me that Yuen Hai, Chan Sing, Lui Chun, Lee Yan and other well known sifu of our branch knew nothing of their teachers teacher? are you really trying to pass that off on me?

Hi Frank,

Do you know when was the claim about Ching Cho being made? The first written record was in Lee Koon-Hung book published in HK, nothing was said while these guys were in China before the communist take-over. Politics, Frank, politics. Later it was fueled by tourism when Futsan wanted to promote itself as the birth place of a new CLF. Profits, Frank, profits. There have always been fights between the branches and one always wants to outdo another. Powers, Franks, powers.

XJ

hskwarrior
09-07-2010, 03:27 PM
Hi Frank,

Do you know when was the claim about Ching Cho being made? The first written record was in Lee Koon-Hung book published in HK, nothing was said while these guys were in China before the communist take-over. Politics, Frank, politics. Later it was fueled by tourism when Futsan wanted to promote itself as the birth place of a new CLF. Profits, Frank, profits. There have always been fights between the branches and one always wants to outdo another. Powers, Franks, powers.


Our gung fu family has been in america since the early to mid 1920's. Lau Bun knew about his sigung and passed that info down. (sorry CLFNOLE - no disrespect intended) but i don't care if Lee Koon Hung mentioned it first in a book. We knew about the Green Grass Monk long long long before lee koon hung's name ever got to american soil.

you can try and play it an any angle. we are going to believe our lineage over yours. plain and simple.

extrajoseph
09-07-2010, 03:39 PM
you can try and play it an any angle. we are going to believe our lineage over yours. plain and simple.

Hi Frank,

That is OK with me, because it is what you believed in and I cannot argue against your faith, but don't try to tell me it is the truth, because truth requires evidence and you haven't got any.

Enough for the day, so long my CLF brother.

XJ

hskwarrior
09-07-2010, 03:53 PM
Don't try to tell ANYONE from the Fut San Hung Sing lineage that what Chan Yiu Chi is the truth. Our history the way we tell it IS the truth.

hskwarrior
09-07-2010, 03:55 PM
There is a clear cut reason the chan yiu chi account of our history in fut san gets utterly rejected. Too bad you too biased to see why.

San Soo Sifu
09-07-2010, 04:56 PM
oh so you haven't watched the most recent documentary then huh? it will make you cry if you believe in jesus. uh, yeah, i suggest you watch the new one.

I agree with Frank, here. The new documentary uses CGI to computerize an image of "whomever" the cloth covered.

In addition, they uncover a "Hungarian Pray Book" circa 1180 A.D. that shows a drawing of the shroud in it. So, the puts the date to at least 1180 A.D.

The sample used for the carbon dating was the smallest strip, on the outside corner edge of the shroud.

This section has been shown to be cloth added later to the shroud as a form of repair, due to the excessive handling throughout the ages, along the outer trim edges.

Basically, nothing is settled in concrete. As, with most history (CLF included); nothing is settled in concrete.

But, as far as the Shroud of Turin is concerned; in the end, it boils down to faith.

Either you have faith, or you don't. (And, if you don't; then that's not a judgement call on your character by me... so don't take it that way.)

hskwarrior
09-07-2010, 05:06 PM
The way they matched the wounds on the shroud and brought out all the details of it showed that the person that the shroud covered was brutally brutally brutally beaten. and when they made the mask mold of his face was spooky.

extrajoseph
09-08-2010, 01:35 AM
We can argue about the authenticity of the shroud as much as we like, but unless the Vatican recognize it officially (and they haven't), it has no religious significance, apart from a good story and an interesting tourist destination.

Imagine they'd have an official portraiture of the Lord all over the place! LOL.

hskwarrior
09-08-2010, 01:38 AM
We can argue about the authenticity of the shroud as much as we like, but unless the Vatican recognize it officially (and they haven't), it has no religious significance, apart from a good story and an interesting tourist destination.

Imagine they'd have an official portraiture of the Lord all over the place! LOL.

do you even know how FULL OF Sh!t you are? LMAO you never cease to amaze me with your attitude joseph.

lone_walker
09-08-2010, 03:11 AM
Hi Frank,

How do you know?

Besides, there is no picture of Jesus Christ either, how they are everywhere? What are you trying to tell me?

XJ

http://www.israelite.net/image.htm

what are you trying to tell us about Chan Heung image?