Ving Tsun Training Clip [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

SAAMAG

09-08-2010, 09:14 AM

Thanks for the clip.

Good hand speed, good reflexes. What I also noticed was that when the kid was pressed out and no longer in range, the footwork changed and would "bounce around" a bit, which shows the difference as to when rooting and being springy are necessary with regard to footwork.

What would be cool with that drill is to have the "attacker" throw on some gloves, and do nothing but REALLY try and punch the "defender" with like 80% effort. Notice the hand speed will slow, the amount of force needing to be directed will be greater, and the necessity to move the arms all over the place constantly will diminish.

couch

09-08-2010, 02:23 PM

I enjoyed that, Graham.

Graham H

09-09-2010, 02:14 AM

What would be cool with that drill is to have the "attacker" throw on some gloves, and do nothing but REALLY try and punch the "defender" with like 80% effort. Notice the hand speed will slow, the amount of force needing to be directed will be greater, and the necessity to move the arms all over the place constantly will diminish.

Hey,

Don't over ananlyse it. Its just a bit of training. If somebody was attacking me with 80% effort I would attack them back with 100% and with no change in hand speed either.......;)

GH

CFT

09-09-2010, 03:33 AM

Nicely shot Graham and thanks for sharing. Good to see everything going on, stance and hands. Good lighting, resolution. No jerky camera movements.

I assume he was your student?

LoneTiger108

09-09-2010, 04:21 AM

CFT

09-09-2010, 04:45 AM

I was going to comment that Graham looked light on his feet. I can't comment technically, but I did like the fact there was no "over trapping", just looking to hit.

I thought the "WC stance/stepping" did come in when he got his student's flank.

SAAMAG

09-09-2010, 08:58 AM

Hey,

Don't over ananlyse it. Its just a bit of training. If somebody was attacking me with 80% effort I would attack them back with 100% and with no change in hand speed either.......;)

GH

No overanalyzing...just commenting. I only took at look at it once, and I didn't mean mechanical handspeed as in moving your arm from point a to point b, but as in the amount of hand movement.

Generally with reality based scenarios you'll notice peoples attacks don't come at you like that. You won't be moving your hands around like that because frankly you won't NEED to. Coupled with the fact that attacks will be coming at you in a non-wing chun method more than likely.

The rest of it was just a suggestion to spice things up a bit.

I liked the clip of your bit of training. Especially the lightness in the feet and your flanking with diagonal trapping/arm pressing

Graham H

09-10-2010, 02:05 AM

I agree. It was well produced.

Interesting to see the positive comments as I thought the actual Wing Chun stance/leg/stepping work was primarily missing. More boxer-type skipping feet, but still effective against the beginner. Good handwork though, and very 'Lee Shing'ish to be honest. Nice speed and accuracy.

WSL family no doubt ;)

Fairplay LoneTiger you really are a spanner! What are u on about "stance/leg/stepping work"????

Still effective against the beginner????? WTF?

That clip was just a bit of training. Some light Gor Sau. It is NOT a reflection on how I would really fight as 1. Its VT against VT 2. There is no hostitly involved. 3. I'm not in the habit of spreading my ego all over the internet.

That DRILL is just about training many different components in a free flowing way so I can experiment and refine.

I'll tell you what big man.......why don't you put something on here and then if I'm impressed I will come and learn at your school!!!!!

It was shot on a mobile phone stood on a cupboard....just off the cuff...no preplanning.......

One of the reason s I put that on here is to see what negative responses I would get as this forum is 90% full of VT nonsense. I should have guessed you would be one....go play with your SLT knive form or add something that we can talk about!!!!!

GH :mad:

LoneTiger108

09-10-2010, 06:52 AM

Fairplay LoneTiger you really are a spanner! What are u on about "stance/leg/stepping work"????

Still effective against the beginner????? WTF?

Wow! Keep your shirt on! :eek: Lucky I didn't call you 'charlie chaplin!' :p

That DRILL is just about training many different components in a free flowing way so I can experiment and refine.

I understand this, and did compliment you also.

It was shot on a mobile phone stood on a cupboard....just off the cuff...no preplanning.......

One of the reason s I put that on here is to see what negative responses I would get as this forum is 90% full of VT nonsense. I should have guessed you would be one....go play with your SLT knive form or add something that we can talk about!!!!!

I was hoping you'd take my comments as genuine light criticism dude but obviously I was wrong. Keep up the good work and watch out for that kick in the nuts, as that's exactly what you're asking for when you move around like that. Drill or no drill that's just developing a bad habit imho :rolleyes: :mad:

But the handwork was still good :D

Graham H

09-10-2010, 07:05 AM

This is the same problem that came when my Sifu's videos came out on YouTube. People trying to ananlyze without actually being there or ever having contact.

Kicking me in the nuts is not as easy as you may think brother!!!

I will join ur facebook page as you have videos on there I beleive but I'm reluctant to comment about people until I'm in the same room regarding video footage.

Maybe you should try the same. ;)

GH

LoneTiger108

09-10-2010, 07:41 AM

I will join ur facebook page as you have videos on there I beleive but I'm reluctant to comment about people until I'm in the same room regarding video footage.

If you're looking for loads of clips I wouldn't bother as I've only put one up so far! I'm planning more but not just yet.

With regards to commenting on video clips, YOURS was the first I've attempted to critique and look where we are?! :( I normally avoid them too and will be in the future :rolleyes:

SAAMAG

09-10-2010, 08:05 AM

That's the thing about video clips, it's the only way to "see" what's being discussed and much can be inferred from what's seen in the clip--but it's not a perfect medium for understanding because it's not empirically complete.

That said, each of us fills in the missing data and concludes different opinions based on our experiences. Some folks will think its good, some won't. Some will say what they think, others will be polite or not say anything at all.

But putting up ANY video clip on the internet you really have no basis for throwing a fit in reaction to a response you feel is unjust; because the experienced internet-goer knows exactly the type of responses that play out with netiquette generally being moron dominant.

YiQuanOne

07-10-2011, 11:25 AM

Looks like you are missing the whole point of doing the exercise, it is just a training exercise and not a sparring drill.

Graham H

07-10-2011, 11:42 AM

Looks like you are missing the whole point of doing the exercise, it is just a training exercise and not a sparring drill.

I disagree! Chi Sau is a pre sparring drill unless you are stupid and think it is about sensing energy and that clip is just a bit of light training btw.

This is the bit where you are meant to offer a better clip of how its meant to be done......on you go son!!!........I can't see it myself though as nobody posts chi sau clips of themselves. They just post themselves talking and showing drills which any t**t can do!! :rolleyes:

GH

YiQuanOne

07-10-2011, 01:58 PM

I disagree! Chi Sau is a pre sparring drill unless you are stupid and think it is about sensing energy and that clip is just a bit of light training btw.

This is the bit where you are meant to offer a better clip of how its meant to be done......on you go son!!!........I can't see it myself though as nobody posts chi sau clips of themselves. They just post themselves talking and showing drills which any t**t can do!! :rolleyes:

GH

Ya, I'm going with the stupid one.

trubblman

07-10-2011, 07:10 PM

Graham H

07-11-2011, 02:07 AM

Oh No not pre sparring! What about pre pre sparring?

I take it you mean Gor Sau before sparring in which case yes.....pre pre sparring! :)

GH

Graham H

07-11-2011, 02:09 AM

Ya, I'm going with the stupid one.

That's ok then we have nothing to discuss. I don't like your way of thinking. I moved away from that idea when I was found out it doesn't work fro me. If it does for you then all is good. ;)

GH

trubblman

07-11-2011, 05:03 AM

I take it you mean Gor Sau before sparring in which case yes.....pre pre sparring! :)

GH

I know it does not come across but that was sarcasm. I meant it as a way of saying chi sau can be both, a chi sensing exercise and a pre sparring exercise. But chi sau and gor sau ( I consider them both chi sau) are meant to be cooperative, not to for one person to exert dominance over the other, but to help the other to improve. Once you take it to a combat exercise where it simply becomes scoring a point by hitting then it becomes sparring.

To me it seems you get all bent out of shape at chi sau's being a chi sensing exercise which it is. People, esp Westerners, get all bent out of shape at the word chi, taking it to mean something mysterious. It does not. Chi can be likened to the word energy. Energy has many forms and its meaning changes depending on how it is used but in context it becomes clear. Same with chi. Even if a person stands there with an arm ( or leg ) extended there's still energy or in other words chi. Depending on the force and vector the arm moves in, that can be sensed by your opponent. A tensed person's energy, again in the context of moving a limb, can be sensed more easily than a pliant person's.

Again most people in this forum, and elsewhere, tend to be argumentative because they are getting in a blather by trying too hard to put chinese concepts in to our indo european language. That is just paying too much attention to the pointing finger.

Graham H

07-11-2011, 05:16 AM

I know it does not come across but that was sarcasm.

I know that!! So was mine! :rolleyes:

chi sensing exercise

There is no such thing in my lineage.

and a pre sparring exercise.

Everything in the system leads to sparring

But chi sau and gor sau ( I consider them both chi sau) are meant to be cooperative, not to for one person to exert dominance over the other, but to help the other to improve. Once you take it to a combat exercise where it simply becomes scoring a point by hitting then it becomes sparring.

Correct!

To me it seems you get all bent out of shape at chi sau's being a chi sensing exercise which it is.

In your opinion mate but not mine!!1

People, esp Westerners, get all bent out of shape at the word chi, taking it to mean something mysterious. It does not. Chi can be likened to the word energy. Energy has many forms and its meaning changes depending on how it is used but in context it becomes clear. Same with chi. Even if a person stands there with an arm ( or leg ) extended there's still energy or in other words chi. Depending on the force and vector the arm moves in, that can be sensed by your opponent. A tensed person's energy, again in the context of moving a limb, can be sensed more easily than a pliant person's.

Thats all BS (IMO)!! Ving Tsun teaches one to maintain striking even if obsticles have been put in the way. It's not about arm contact and manipualting arms. If there is any contact in fighting then it is too quick to sense any "energy". If the oppoents limbs touch yours at any time the skill in VT teaches you to recycle the punch and find another punching line. Because of our pivoting/footwork and the fact that we try and turn the opponent away from us means that 99% of the time the new punching line is through the line of the opposite elbow. This is the whole purpose of Chum Kiu in my lineage. It teaches you a certain strategy for fighting.

If this is not your thinking then why should it be a problem? I'm happy with WSLPB way and not any others that I have experienced. No problem in that is there??

What lineage are you from??? I may understand where you are coming from then

GH

CFT

07-11-2011, 05:38 AM

To me it seems you get all bent out of shape at chi sau's being a chi sensing exercise which it is. People, esp Westerners, get all bent out of shape at the word chi, taking it to mean something mysterious.It's not mysterious if you take 'chi' to mean sticking (黐 (http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-can/search.php?q=%F8u)), rather than breath/energy (氣 (http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-can/search.php?q=%AE%F0)).

LoneTiger108

07-11-2011, 05:57 AM

It's not mysterious if you take 'chi' to mean sticking (黐 (http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-can/search.php?q=%F8u)), rather than breath/energy (氣 (http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-can/search.php?q=%AE%F0)).

Yep! Understanding the word can help ;)

I have never heard of 'Hei Sau' but I have heard people term sticking hands and 'chi' hands which I think is a pretty awful mistake.

And FWIW 'Hei' or 'Chi' in Mandarin, definitely exists IMHHHHO :D

FongSung

07-11-2011, 07:23 AM

Lonetiger, as you said b4 Wing Chun terminology traditionally is cantonese a lot of confusion can arise when mixing with mandarin, as some others do here, imho. This is a classic example thanks to CFT for pointing the obvious out. Also written chinese is not always the same in cantonese and mandarin from my experience.

You can still strike whilst sticking btw. Also once you have a bridge you should maintain it even when "moving to another line" one arm should be bridging even when "recylcing" the punch. I see PB doing this when he chain punch on the flank/blindside/outside, is it not? This force's the opponent to use the arm furthest away to counter, generally.

LoneTiger108

07-11-2011, 08:42 AM

Lonetiger, as you said b4 Wing Chun terminology traditionally is cantonese a lot of confusion can arise when mixing with mandarin, as some others do here, imho.

:);) Now THAT is the point I have ALWAYS been making... :D

Graham H

07-11-2011, 09:25 AM

You can still strike whilst sticking btw.

Sticking to your opponents center? Yes.....sticking to their arms? No!!!!!!!

Also once you have a bridge you should maintain it even when "moving to another line" one arm should be bridging even when "recylcing" the punch.

Bridge meaning path to your opponent? Yes.....sticking to arm "bridges"...No!!!!

I see PB doing this when he chain punch on the flank/blindside/outside, is it not? This force's the opponent to use the arm furthest away to counter, generally.

Yes, we look to go to the outside of the oppoents attacking arm. We can turn them so that their reverse arm is out of the way from giving us too much danger. Also if we move to the outside it encourages the opponent to cross or turn himself in order to attack again. Its in the moment that we look to intercept and cut the oppoents movement off. "Cutting the way" is the most direct path to your opponent (chum kiu). Fighting square on facing is dangerous and will mean that the biggest strongest will always win. We use the opponents force against him but not from arm contact. These concepts can be easily misinterpreted as soon as we over indulge in arm contact chi sau where one tries to manipulate arms.

It would be a good idea for you to not read into what you see from Philipp. Being in front of him is a whole different ball game and more threatening than any other VT teacher I have met to date!!

GH

couch

07-12-2011, 11:17 AM

Stick.

Sticky?

Sticky rice? Sticky syrup?

or the verb: to stick?

Graham H

07-12-2011, 11:48 AM

Stick.

Sticky?

Sticky rice? Sticky syrup?

or the verb: to stick?

Mmmmmmm sticky rice with syrup!!! More effective than "sticky arms" me thinks! ;)

GH

trubblman

07-12-2011, 12:22 PM

. Fighting square on facing is dangerous and will mean that the biggest strongest will always win.

GH

Fighting square on is more dangerous. True and it's also more direct.
Biggest, strongest will always win. False or at least not demonstrably true. Because the biggest strongest will have an advantage ( and will biggest, strongest will have an advantage per se regardless of where he is facing) but that he will win always ( the key to the statement that makes it not demonstrably true) is a dubious proposition.

Graham H

07-12-2011, 12:38 PM

Fighting square on is more dangerous. True and it's also more direct.
Biggest, strongest will always win. False or at least not demonstrably true. Because the biggest strongest will have an advantage ( and will biggest, strongest will have an advantage per se regardless of where he is facing) but that he will win always ( the key to the statement that makes it not demonstrably true) is a dubious proposition.

Sorry I had to put that through google translate. We have different ideas mate. Nay bother!

GH

trubblman

07-12-2011, 12:48 PM

Sorry I had to put that through google translate. We have different ideas mate. Nay bother!

GH

I guess you had to use google translate because I was for the most part quoting you. Your ideas don't square with fighting reality, whether it is wing chun or any other type of fighting. There are many instances of smaller weaker fighters beating bigger, stronger fighters with head on attacks. That's just reality.

couch

07-12-2011, 12:51 PM

www.m-w.com

(3)stick verb

Definition of STICK

transitive verb
1
a : to pierce with something pointed : stab
b : to kill by piercing
2
: to push or thrust so as or as if to pierce
3
a : to fasten by thrusting in
b : impale
c : push, thrust

Graham H

07-12-2011, 12:51 PM

I guess you had to use google translate because I was for the most part quoting you.

ooooooooooooooooooo very clever! the man doth have some intellect! You still havent told me what lineage you are from. I see you post on WSL forum as well. Well??

GH

trubblman

07-12-2011, 12:57 PM

ooooooooooooooooooo very clever! the man doth have some intellect! You still havent told me what lineage you are from. I see you post on WSL forum as well. Well??

GH

As for Wing Chun, I studied under several, including from someone in WSL tree, but I have learnt the most from my current sifu who comes from HKM tree. I also study decuerdas eskrima.

k gledhill

07-12-2011, 01:07 PM

Looks like you are missing the whole point of doing the exercise, it is just a training exercise and not a sparring drill.

www.m-w.com

(3)stick verb

Definition of STICK

transitive verb
1
a : to pierce with something pointed : stab
b : to kill by piercing
2
: to push or thrust so as or as if to pierce
3
a : to fasten by thrusting in
b : impale
c : push, thrust

Nice ........

Graham H

07-12-2011, 01:10 PM

As for Wing Chun, I studied under several, including from someone in WSL tree, but I have learnt the most from my current sifu who comes from HKM tree. I also study decuerdas eskrima.

So who is that someone???

trubblman

07-12-2011, 02:57 PM

So who is that someone???

A teacher who has experience in shorin ryu, wing chun and arnis as well as almost 20 years working in corrections.

Buddha_Fist

07-12-2011, 09:13 PM

The infamous Mr. X!

Graham H

07-13-2011, 12:49 AM

A teacher who has experience in shorin ryu, wing chun and arnis as well as almost 20 years working in corrections.

Is he a Ninja? Is that why you won't say?? :D

trubblman

07-13-2011, 09:22 AM

Is he a Ninja? Is that why you won't say?? :D

No I feel that there a lot of people here who want you to show and prove; people constantly ask on this forum who is your sifu? why don't you a show a video? IMO that's childish. It's like school kids saying why won't you do it, what's the matter are you scared?

If you wish to put up videos and try to impress people by what lineage you are a part of that's fine. I believe that lineage is only a small part of fighting ability. I believe that fighting style, whether one does VT, BJJ, Judo, JuJitsu, is small part of fighting ability. The bigger part is training, perseverance, trial and error and a willingness to accept an ass whipping now and then.

One can never assess another's skill by looking at a video. You can never assess a person's ability by looking at a video. So I don't put videos up of my doing VT. I do have videos of my doing escrima - if you go to ultimateeskrima.com you can check those out. But I did not put the videos up, my eskrima teacher did that. But if you are ever in Baltimore Washington area ( USA ) hit me up and I we can practice VT and maybe we can exchange ideas and you can meet my teacher.

Graham H

07-13-2011, 09:49 AM

No I feel that there a lot of people here who want you to show and prove; people constantly ask on this forum who is your sifu?

I know a lot of people in my lineage. I asked for your Sifus name so I an understand your thinking. No biggy is it??

why don't you a show a video? IMO that's childish. It's like school kids saying why won't you do it, what's the matter are you scared?

I think childish is the wrong word there mate! There are videos on the internet from every fighting style and in your opinion they are childish???? Do me a favour!

If you wish to put up videos and try to impress people by what lineage you are a part of that's fine.

Impress people??? No mate! That video clip was originally to show that in our lineage we dont hang off each others arms like most WC systems but it doesnt make any difference because the arm glue method will always exist. Some idiots from days gone by taught it to people without to much knowledge themselves in the first place.

I believe that lineage is only a small part of fighting ability. I believe that fighting style, whether one does VT, BJJ, Judo, JuJitsu, is small part of fighting ability. The bigger part is training, perseverance, trial and error and a willingness to accept an ass whipping now and then.

I agree!

One can never assess another's skill by looking at a video. You can never assess a person's ability by looking at a video.

I agree!

So I don't put videos up of my doing VT. I do have videos of my doing escrima - if you go to ultimateeskrima.com you can check those out. But I did not put the videos up, my eskrima teacher did that.

Sounds a bit hypocritical that does. :confused: Most people will not offer any video of themselves in Gor Sau or sparring because they are afraid of negative comments. I couldn't care less because, like you say, nobody can judge skill and power from video.;)

But if you are ever in Baltimore Washington area ( USA ) hit me up and I we can practice VT and maybe we can exchange ideas and you can meet my teacher.

In other words never then.:rolleyes:

GH