Leg Tech

[EarthDragon]

was going over some different leg techniques in class, and was wondering what other mantis systems incorporate leg work. Do we focus enough on the legs? is thier anything tha can be added?

[KwaiChangCaine]

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "leg work" and share what you do in this regard?

[mooyingmantis]

Earthdragon,
Since my primary CMA style for 30 years was Monkey Boxing, I lay heavy emphasis on leg techniques in the mantis that I teach. Though not a mantis philosophy, I incorporate the "Four Hands Theory" (KFM July/August 2010) as a part of our training.

Richard A. Tolson

[Syn7]

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "leg work" and share what you do in this regard?

i second that.... be more specific...

[alextse4]

was going over some different leg techniques in class, and was wondering what other mantis systems incorporate leg work. Do we focus enough on the legs? is thier anything tha can be added?
This is a very good form to train your leg techniques.

[Three Harmonies]

How does a form "train" leg techniques?

Thanks
JAB

[alextse4]

How does a form "train" leg techniques?

Thanks
JAB

OK just forget it.

[-N-]

Dang it. I missed out on the secrets.

[Syn7]

Mandarin duck leg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_rynpi2W04

that was the link...

it looks like a good workout... ive learned similar forms from training years ago... do that fast like 5 times a day and you'll progress fast...
there are tons of forms like that, some better than others... some really hard, other pretty easy...

so thats what yall meant by leg work???


alex, no need to be insecure, he was just asking a question... everyone gets to have their say in here... you shouldnt feel the need to edit past posts because of percieved criticism... the clip was most welcome...

[mooyingmantis]

Yes, that looks like an excellent form for mastering the proper method of kicking. What style of mantis does that form appear in?

Jake,
Its true that no form can develop practical kicking application, that happens with drills and sparring. However, I believe Sifu Tse meant the form could help one master proper kicking techniques and possibly contain kicking theories. I wholeheartedly agree with him. I always tell my students that if you can't master proper bodily movement in a form (no impact, no threat), how in the world are you NOT going to throw crappy techniques under pressure (painful impact, huge threat)?

Too much of what I have seen in modern MMA is absolute slop due to the lack of some teachers de-emphasis of forms (choreographed shadow-boxing). I think this is a shame. IMO, mastering the basics through forms should be the FIRST step if one desires to accomplish much when it comes time to test one's skills in the ring.
Though I believe it is also sad when peeps are under the misconception that they know how to effectively fight, just because they know a bazillion forms. My hometown has certainly been filled with that fantasy. I know I personally did my part in trying to destroy that myth. :)

Richard A. Tolson

[EarthDragon]

sorry guys allow me to be more specific, however I was not speaking of kicking or strenghtening the legs but rather using specific leg techniques in your ciriculum
i.e
tiao- lift
tong- reverse leg sweep
kiou- forward sweep
ki- trip kick
tahn- outside to inside
tswa- leg wrap
ding - knee
gou- hook
etc etc
we were going over these and a student asked if they were strickly 8 step mantis ,or all mantis techniques and I honeslty could not answer.

[sho'nuff]

peace! i trained under one of philipman chow's(mainland 7 star) students a few years back and i saw him do some trapping and stuff with his legs. i never got to learn it or feel it myself but it looked pretty cool. also when i was in atlanta i went and checked out sun de yao's student(tai chi plum blossom mantis from the hao family) and they seem to do some stuff like that too.

[YouKnowWho]

tiao- lift
tong- reverse leg sweep
kiou- forward sweep
ki- trip kick
tahn- outside to inside
tswa- leg wrap
ding - knee
gou- hook


There are more leg techniques. IMO, the leg technique should not have any style boundary, and every CMA styles should all train it.

踢 Forward kick (TI),
撮 Scooping kick (CUO),
粘 Sticking kick (ZHAN),
彈 Spring (TAN),
挑 Hooking kick (TIAO),
纏 Foot entangling (CHAN),
合 Inner hook (HE),
撿 Foot picking (JIAN),
沖 Inner kick(CHONG),
掛 Inner heel sweep (GUA),
刀 Inner sickle (DAO)
蹩 Break (BIE),
撩 Back kick (LIAO),
切 Front cut(QIE),
削 Sickle hooking (XIAO)
勾 Back sickle (GOU),
裏 Back inner hook (LI),
擓 Leg bending lift (KUAI)

[EarthDragon]

interesting Youknow who, you listed some I havent heard of, as 8 step only has 14 so thank you for that, but do you think these are used in ALL kung fu styles?

I was wondering of the monkey footwork in other mantis styles broke them down as far as 8 step does. or if it was a bagua influence...

[mooyingmantis]

sorry guys allow me to be more specific, however I was not speaking of kicking or strenghtening the legs but rather using specific leg techniques in your ciriculum
i.e
tiao- lift
tong- reverse leg sweep
kiou- forward sweep
ki- trip kick
tahn- outside to inside
tswa- leg wrap
ding - knee
gou- hook
etc etc
we were going over these and a student asked if they were strickly 8 step mantis ,or all mantis techniques and I honeslty could not answer.

We use tiao, ki, tswa, ding and gou (to use your terminology) in our PM school. Most of these are also commonly found in Seven Star PM forms.

[mooyingmantis]

interesting Youknow who, you listed some I havent heard of, as 8 step only has 14 so thank you for that, but do you think these are used in ALL kung fu styles?

I was wondering of the monkey footwork in other mantis styles broke them down as far as 8 step does. or if it was a bagua influence...

Shandong was home to both mantis and monkey styles. However, based on the monkey style I have practiced for decades and the other monkey styles that I have personally witnessed, mantis has very little to do with true monkey footwork. Though I know the legends say otherwise. I can only think of a couple mantis moves that are similar to any of the monkey styles that I know of. Mantis might refer to it as monkey, but most Monkey stylists would certainly see the difference.

[YouKnowWho]

do you think these are used in ALL kung fu styles?

May be just a subset. 蹩 Break (BIE), 踢 Forward kick (TI), 撮 Scooping kick (CUO), 粘 Sticking kick (ZHAN), and 削 Sickle hooking (XIAO) are all used in the 7 star Mantis "waist chop".

[Three Harmonies]

Alex
You are hyper sensitive! I was just asking a simple question. Relax a bit homie!

Richard,
I agree a solid base is needed before hitting anything too hard. I have no clue when Alex meant, neither do you, so I hate to put words in the mans mouth!

As for your comments on poor kicking in MMA... brother... are you watching any MMA?? Aldo. Silva. The other Silva. Crocop. Buakaw. GSP.

Seriously, if you have not been watching MMA you should. "Sloppy" kicking is not what I call it!

JAB

[mooyingmantis]

Alex
You are hyper sensitive! I was just asking a simple question. Relax a bit homie!

Richard,
I agree a solid base is needed before hitting anything too hard. I have no clue when Alex meant, neither do you, so I hate to put words in the mans mouth!

As for your comments on poor kicking in MMA... brother... are you watching any MMA?? Aldo. Silva. The other Silva. Crocop. Buakaw. GSP.

Seriously, if you have not been watching MMA you should. "Sloppy" kicking is not what I call it!

JAB

Jake,
Actually I was a bit off-topic. I was referring to the punching techniques. I prob should watch more current ones. I was so turned off by early sloppy hand techniques and the low percentage of kicks that I haven't watched much lately. I'm not much into watching two guys in little shorts rolling around on the mat (perhaps a bit too ****phobic :D).
Thanks for the heads up. I'll start watching again and see what is currently happening. :)

[EarthDragon]

mooying,
intertesting what you said about monkey in mantis. I was also under the impression that monkey footwork was absolutley in early praying mantis boxing.
I do know that in 8 step our footwork was taken from Ba gua and has no monkey in it apparently this was added by Chiang Hua Long as he aged and the monkey footwork used to much energy and effort.
So where does this myth come from? and where did mantis get jumping and rolling tech's if not from monkey?

[mooyingmantis]

mooying,
So where does this myth come from? and where did mantis get jumping and rolling tech's if not from monkey?

No idea where this idea came from. Though as I mentioned monkey, as well as mantis, developed in Shandong province. Perhaps the monkey style inspired the idea of jumping in mantis, though the actual jumping methods of the two are different (from my experience).
A roll is a roll, unless it has jelly in it. :) There are only so many ways the body can roll. So, I don't see any reason to feel monkey inspired the rolls in mantis. Though rolls are extremely rare in mantis forms. I know of only a couple forms that include rolling techniques in CCKTJMH or 7* PM. Others please correct me on this if I am wrong.
If anything, I think the idea of monkey footwork in mantis may come from a possible past link between mantis and tong bei or tai zu quan. Perhaps Sifus Brazier or Hui can comment on this, since I know almost nothing about that subject.
In most myths there is usually a past kernel of truth. However, with the irrepressible Chinese fascination with story-telling and the lack of literacy within the ranks of past masters, which deprives us of historically reliable written records, the facts behind most myths are unsolvable.

[EarthDragon]

tong bei may have influenced this..... that could be the connection. I know mantis is made up af 14 styles, just not enough life times to learn all of them and what the added and or influenced...

BTW love your sig, I always say I have been doing MA for 30 years and I'm begining to understand a little

[Three Harmonies]

Monkey as in elusive, deceptive, light, agile, nimble.
Not monkey as in emulating how the monkey moves or literally coming from a "monkey" named style.

Same with the overexaggeration of "Bagua footwork in Babu Tanglang." Toeing in and out is not exclusive to Babu, and neither is the strategy of trying to get behind your opponent. I wouldn't even say that Babu emphasizes it anymore that Meihua, Qixing etc. etc.

But, what do I know!? Mike and I used to have many of these conversations. I miss having beer and a good talk with Mike. Miss Mike.

Cheers,
JAB

[EarthDragon]

I was taught Bagua is a major part of 8 steps footwork if not all of it, not just toeing as three harmonies said, so jake if this you beleive to be an exaggeration then if its not where and what style does this come from?

our 8 short
ba bu
chuang bu
dai bu
ru wan bu
nuo bu
cuan ta bu
xin bu
tuo bu

our 8 long
hen ye
sun jiao
fang xing
me hua
liu xing
qi xing
zou zhan
bagua
when speaking to a bagua master many years ago and showing him our footwork he said yes this all comes from bagua so im confused where you learned differently or exagerated as you said

[mooyingmantis]

Monkey as in elusive, deceptive, light, agile, nimble.
Not monkey as in emulating how the monkey moves or literally coming from a "monkey" named style.

But, what do I know!? Mike and I used to have many of these conversations. I miss having beer and a good talk with Mike. Miss Mike.

Cheers,
JAB

Good point Jake!

Yep, none cooler than the Biggie-meister. Last I saw him was a few weeks ago when I dropped by to present him with a copy of my new WHF quanpu book.

Earthdragon,
Glad you like my sig. :)

[Syn7]

Jake,
Actually I was a bit off-topic. I was referring to the punching techniques. I prob should watch more current ones. I was so turned off by early sloppy hand techniques and the low percentage of kicks that I haven't watched much lately. I'm not much into watching two guys in little shorts rolling around on the mat (perhaps a bit too ****phobic :D).
Thanks for the heads up. I'll start watching again and see what is currently happening. :)

its still so young, so its still changing really fast... it wont be well on the plateau for a bit yet...

[TaichiMantis]

quotes regarding use of legs from articles written by my kung fu uncle, Prof. Randy Choy (referring to CCK TCPM versions)

http://www.i-chuan.net/pages2/choyindex.html

• Part 7: analyzing Thrusting Foot boxing


Don't forget about the leg strikes. In this boxing form, I have identified four basic leg strikes to practice. The first leg strike is the "Scoop the Crotch Leg" (Liao Yin Tui) found in posture 3. The second is the "Mandarin duck leg" (Yuan Yang Tui) found in posture 53. The third leg strike is the "Leg bump" (Zha Tui), a strike to your opponent's knee and shin area, executed as a hidden strike after performing "Agile cat capturing a rat." The fourth leg strikes is also a hidden strike called, "Sprouting leg" (Jiu Tui) executed while delivering sideways striking. In the "Rules of Chuan," you want to "Simultaneously kick with evasive body movements" (Jiao Qu Shen Li). Think about it.


Before concluding, I must bring to your attention the "Rules of Chuan," regarding "Multi-directional fighting" (Si Fang Ba Mian Da Fa). In "Thrusting Foot Boxing," slowly go through postures 22 through 28, "Single downwards chop to leg trapping technique." You will have to rely on your quick eyesight and your quick reflexes to practice the quick footwork and the quick striking this boxing form has to offer. If you have reached this level of boxing, let me congratulate you. You can now ask your martial arts instructor if you are ready to move to the next level and learn more advanced fighting principles and techniques.

• Part 8: analyzing Intercepting Fist boxing


Referring to the "Rules of Chuan," there is the "Kicking techniques using evasive body movements" (Jiao Qu Shen Li), found in posture 43, "Mandarin duck kick" and in posture 52, "Whirlwind kick." In the Northern Praying Mantis Boxing system there are many "Hidden offensive techniques" (An Cang Du Zhuo) which can be found in posture 7, "An embroidering girl doing embroidery with needles," in posture 10, "Turning the body to dash out a strike to the opponent's crotch," in posture 26, "Trying to fish out the moon from the bottom of the sea," and in posture 32, "Getting treasures from the bottom of the sea." Don't forget the deceptive fighting strategy of mantis boxing. Practice the "Multi-directional fighting" (Si Fang Ba Mian Da Fa) found in posture 29, "Making a rubbing fist strike" through posture 39, "Moving both feet and smashing both hands." After attacking, intercepting, and then applying hidden attacks, follow through with palm and elbow strikes, switching directions executing double sinking elbows to and double fist smashes in different directions.

[Three Harmonies]

Already I am confused about this thread; are we talking leg techniques or footwork???

And what happened to Alex??? Too hot a conversation??

Footwork is universal. Our bodies are finite and can move in a limited capacity that is for the most part no different then the rest of the human beings we share earth with. Bagua's footwork is not solely found in Bagua is my only point. Of course the Bagua guy is going to concur! I am sure if you showed your footwork to any stylist they would find the similarities striking!

Richard,
I meant Mike Martello, but Biggie is great too! Fortunately I still have conversations with Biggie.

Cheers
Jake

[EarthDragon]

Already I am confused about this thread; are we talking leg techniques or footwork???

LOL I think we are speaking of both. Although they are one in the same combining footwork in relation to leg techniqes . however I was taught all came from Bagua, am I wrong?



Footwork is universal. Our bodies are finite and can move in a limited capacity that is for the most part no different then the rest of the human beings we share earth with. Bagua's footwork is not solely found in Bagua is my only point. Of course the Bagua guy is going to concur! I am sure if you showed your footwork to any stylist they would find the similarities striking!

I agree that we only have two hands two feet and limited movements of them. However humans only have one mouth yet there are many different ways of speaking tone, pronunciation, pitch, decible, inflextion etc etc as well as difernent languages so to compare similarites is OK but lets not say words that come from arabic are the same as latin. So I guess we are talking about the same thing just trying to see what the difference is and who else uses what we use. As I see alot of styles dont have much when it comes to using the legs for fighting but rather standing or using them to move but not as a weapon. Hope I'm being clearer


I have watched many styles over the years and although simular to a point ie using the lower extremities, they differ greatly.

[Syn7]

LOL I think we are speaking of both. Although they are one in the same combining footwork in relation to leg techniqes . however I was taught all came from Bagua, am I wrong?


u were taught that all footwork and leg techs came from bagua???

[Michael Dasargo]

It's to my understanding that footwork will ultimately "collide" with the opponent once within range, resulting in a percussive force (kick) with or without the knockdown. Thus, it got all wrapped up into "legwork".

I may be wrong, but the main bagua influence on Babu is the coiling/uncoiling of the arms. The uncoiling aspect is to escape chin na in a similar manner that BJJ ucoils (rolls) out of locks.

IMO:
Bagua Influence: counter/rolling the chin-na with reversal throwing.
Taiji influence: unbalancing: hook grapple pluck turned into hook, suppress, uproot.
Xingyi influence: footwork: short burst coupled with micro angle changes.
Tongbei: the rocks that are attached to the xinyi slingshot. where the footwork loads with compression, tongbei arms expand for heavy percussive power.
Mantis: "hook" trapping tactics that ties it all together.

M.

PS
After studying shuai a bit, it appears to me that mantis does not have "throws" per se, but knockdowns. The shuai fa that we see from Babu, IMO, is shuai-chiao preceded with Babu entries. This is in reference to 7 Star and Plum Blossom Mantis.

[mooyingmantis]

After studying shuai a bit, it appears to me that mantis does not have "throws" per se, but knockdowns. .

Yeah, I would definitely second that. Knockdowns, trips and drags to be precise.

[EarthDragon]

syn7
u were taught that all footwork and leg techs came from bagua???
yes pertaining to 8 step, obviously not all mantis

Michael D

It's to my understanding that footwork will ultimately "collide" with the opponent once within range, resulting in a percussive force (kick) with or without the knockdown. Thus, it got all wrapped up into "legwork".

well said this is what I was trying to explian to three harmonies/Jake, but couldnt find the words. footwork adn leg tech are one in the same



After studying shuai a bit, it appears to me that mantis does not have "throws" per se, but knockdowns. The shuai fa that we see from Babu, IMO, is shuai-chiao preceded with Babu entries. This is in reference to 7 Star and Plum Blossom Mantis.

can elaborate on this.... I teach the 40 basic throws of Shuai chiao taught to me by Shyun who was taught by Wei and have been told that what we teach is true Shuai Jiao and def added to 8 step.

[Michael Dasargo]

ED,

Shifu Puyot taught me 18 throws, which if I recall is filtered down from what he learned from Shyun. I'll ask him more about this later.

According to folklore, Feng Hua Yi supposedly was an expert in SC and Ying Jow Pai. But we know how unreliable verbal transmissions can be.

So I asked around. Contacts from Taiwan deny any knowledge of Shyun learning SC. So I tried locally.

Jan-yu Weng recalls Shyun at his house spending time with his dad Dr. Weng back in the day. When I asked Dr. Weng about Shyun, his response was "Yeah, I know him" then we moved on to another subject.

Regardless of where he learned from, the point is that the shuai fa (throwing techniques) predominately found in Shyun line are integrated from the art of shuai jiao.

[Michael Dasargo]

Most Mantis Boxers agree that while several styles compose the roots of mantis, 7 Star and Plum Blossom Mantis compose the trunk, and Styles like Liu He and Babu branched off from these origins.

The cadence of 7 Star and Mei Hua is very much like a drum roll. Not only striking high low left right, but also seamlessly executing chin na and kao da (knockdowns) without breaking cadence.

The knockdown cadence is camouflaged by the rhythm of the strikes, making the transition nearly undetectable. Threading Needle Chopping waist and Silk Entwining Hand are examples of the seamless transition from striking/trapping to tripping/knockdown.

To transition into an all out throw would elongate the movement and break the cadence. Not necessarily a bad thing. It's just not the tactical approach predominately taken by 7 Star/Plum Blossom.

More to come...

[EarthDragon]

I love the internet! LOL for many years I have searched the truth and origin of my style. I have met and spoke with many incredidably knowledgable people that have given me a more indepth answer than my own kung fu family.
Slowly and painstakenly I have pieced together loose ends with the help of this board and its memebers.
Thank all of you so much for sharing your information. It seems there is more shrouded in mystery in TCMA than in all of egypt but one things the same, one must dig to unveil.

For the history that was once told to our lineage has way to many holes.

I was told the shui jiao WAS strickly from Feng Hua Yi, and that added to ba bu was the 40 throws of this system as well as the jointlocks from Eagle claw.

The Wu style taiji was taught to master Wei by Wu Ching Chen 1870-1942 who was taught by his father Wu Chen Yo 1834-1902 and from his brother Yang Ban Ho 1837 1892. and in 1990 the Wu family contacted my shifu adn asked him not to teach thier family style as he was not a Chen so it was changed to Shyun style, but it seems the more I dig this doesnt add up either... LOL so I keep digging.

[mooyingmantis]

Earthdragon,

If nothing else, Chinese instructors are wonderful storytellers. Here in Ohio we were told back in the day that actual Shaolin Monks picked the herbs that were used in the jow sold to us for iron palm training. :eek: So nice to have a team of Shaolin monks at our disposal. :)
We were also told that it was important to take the herbal pills sold by the local instructors. One instructor explained how easily it could be to run into something and accidentally "dim mak yourself".

Yes, stories abound in Asian culture. For example, did you know that some of the ancient samurai were taught by Tengu (half crow/half human demigods)?

If I have learned one thing in CMA it is to listen attentively, believe little and politely nod. :) Then get on with training and don't worry about were the material came from.

[SoCo KungFu]

Yes, that looks like an excellent form for mastering the proper method of kicking. What style of mantis does that form appear in?

Jake,
Its true that no form can develop practical kicking application, that happens with drills and sparring. However, I believe Sifu Tse meant the form could help one master proper kicking techniques and possibly contain kicking theories. I wholeheartedly agree with him. I always tell my students that if you can't master proper bodily movement in a form (no impact, no threat), how in the world are you NOT going to throw crappy techniques under pressure (painful impact, huge threat)?

Too much of what I have seen in modern MMA is absolute slop due to the lack of some teachers de-emphasis of forms (choreographed shadow-boxing). I think this is a shame. IMO, mastering the basics through forms should be the FIRST step if one desires to accomplish much when it comes time to test one's skills in the ring.
Though I believe it is also sad when peeps are under the misconception that they know how to effectively fight, just because they know a bazillion forms. My hometown has certainly been filled with that fantasy. I know I personally did my part in trying to destroy that myth. :)

Richard A. Tolson

Except that its actually easier to kick a solid object than the air....

[Syn7]

Except that its actually easier to kick a solid object than the air....

no doubt.... i agree... although not everyone seems to agree...

[mooyingmantis]

Except that its actually easier to kick a solid object than the air....

Just because you can kick it doesn't mean you can deliver power through your target. Anyone off the street can punch or kick a solid object. MA should teach one how to do it in the most efficient way with optimum power. Proper form is the first step to developing those abilities. Sloppy form = lack of balance + lack of targeting + weak strikes. Its quite simple.

[EarthDragon]

Mooying

If I have learned one thing in CMA it is to listen attentively, believe little and politely nod. Then get on with training and don't worry about were the material came from.

LOL sound advice and I thank you for it.

I do however really want to understand the origin and truth about the system that I have devoted my life to.
Until the internet all one could do was believe was was told to them. So its nice to hear different thoughts stories and history from others who like to share, educate and learn.
Psysical training is a given but kung fu is made up of many parts and a major part for me personally is history and knowledge.

[SoCo KungFu]

Just because you can kick it doesn't mean you can deliver power through your target. Anyone off the street can punch or kick a solid object. MA should teach one how to do it in the most efficient way with optimum power. Proper form is the first step to developing those abilities. Sloppy form = lack of balance + lack of targeting + weak strikes. Its quite simple.

And you think you can learn proper balance, targeting, absorption of force, power delivery necessary to effectively and definitively strike and damage a solid yet moving object.....by striking nothing but air?

[mooyingmantis]

And you think you can learn proper balance, targeting, absorption of force, power delivery necessary to effectively and definitively strike and damage a solid yet moving object.....by striking nothing but air?

Since you apparently didn't bother to read my post...

"IMO, mastering the basics through forms should be the FIRST step..."

I teach a progression which includes forms, bag work, two man drills, two man sparring, then one man against multiple aggressors.
But I have only been teaching 32 years. Perhaps you can enlighten us on the proper way to teach these skills. I am always ready to learn new methods.

[YouKnowWho]

"IMO, mastering the basics through forms should be the FIRST step..."
When you use your round house kick to kick in the thin air, you have to worry about your balance, and also not to over pop your knee joint, you may not be able to "put all your body behind your kick". When you kick at a heavy bag, you know the heavy bag will stop your kick. You don't have to worry about your balance and too much pop on your knee joint.

The front toe push kick is very difficult to train with shoes on. Since you cannot bend your toes back when you have shoes on, you may pay too much attention on your toes instead of the ball of your foot. You won't have that problem if you kick on a heavy bag because you have no choice but to use "the ball of your foot".

I prefer to use 2 men drills to "develop" combat skill and later on to use the forms training to "enhance" the combat skill. There are many advantages by using this approach. One advantages is you will never create any "dancer" and that's for sure. Since I know that I don't belong to the main stream, I don't expect people to agree with me on my approach.

[EarthDragon]

When someone walks into ANY martial arts school the first thing they need to learn is how to move thier body like a martial artist. This is done in our school with body codinations.
This teaches balance, agility form and focus. It is imparitive to learn the mechanics of kicking properly.
This is done by the beginner student to kick the air way before he kicks a target. other wise they will instill bad habits in thier form.
This is the best and IMO the only way to properly teach a person to kick, however those that dont have the experience of teaching will disagree.

Boxing is no different walk into any boxing school and they teach shadow boxing first and foremost, before the gloves every are worn.

[YouKnowWho]

The knockdown cadence is camouflaged by the rhythm of the strikes, making the transition nearly undetectable. Threading Needle Chopping waist and Silk Entwining Hand are examples of the seamless transition from striking/trapping to tripping/knockdown.
When Brendan Lai explained the "threading needle chopping wasit", he used his left hand to make a small circle from his left waist to his opponent's waist. I asked him why not just used s straight line push instead. His answer was this will generate more striking power by circlular motion. Since you are using the other leg to block/hook/sweep your opponent's back leg, whether that hand should be used as a strike or just a push, it should not make any difference. I'll say that most Mantis guy's "intend" are more in striking and less in throwing.

[mooyingmantis]

Earthdragon,
Since it was not specified in the initial post, are we talking leg techniques in a street or tournament setting? Very different methods and applications are involved for each.

For example, in my school we have a "street/self-defense" emphasis. We use a very limited number of kicks and those kicks never rise above the groin, if that high. Hands lead the trips/sweeps and feet lead the hand/elbow strikes.

[EarthDragon]

I asked him why not just used s straight line push instead. His answer was this will generate more striking power by circlular motion

always a fan of cyntrical force. not sure about sp?

mooying always street, and real application, havent done tourney's since my karate days in the 80's... dont need to go into why I dont care for them at all but im sure you could imagine.

[Syn7]

always a fan of cyntrical force. not sure about sp?

would that be anything lke centrifugal force??? like inertia, ration yadda yadda???

[EarthDragon]

LOL yessssss couldnt remember how to spell that word to save my life,( brain feart) but that doesnt look like the way its pronounced either.... go figure

[Syn7]

no... its weird... for years i thought it was spelled centrifical force... go figure, theres a G in there:confused:


:D

[-N-]

When Brendan Lai explained the "threading needle chopping wasit", he used his left hand to make a small circle from his left waist to his opponent's waist. I asked him why not just used s straight line push instead. His answer was this will generate more striking power by circlular motion. Since you are using the other leg to block/hook/sweep your opponent's back leg, whether that hand should be used as a strike or just a push, it should not make any difference.

Sifu Lai's specialty was speed. He did this by making his motions as small and streamlined as possible. In order to generate enough power, he used circular short force that tied in to waist coiling, or "vibration" as he called it.

The hand circle from his waist to opponent's waist was the large version of the circle. In actual application he would set up the "thread needle waist chop" by closing in quickly with a grab and a palm to face.

When the opponent reacts to the palm, Sifu Lai is already close, and used the waist coiling to complete the legwork to set up the throw. Since the waist is already coiling, he also used that to generate the pushing force with the hand that was grabbing. The grabbing hand is not at the waist, but close to the opponent in guard position. Even the initial grab and palm attack starts with the same waist coiling/vibration that powers the legwork. All the circular forces combine to generate the throwing force.

Alternate set up can be with opening palm attack using the lead hand. The attacking hand leaks out of the parry and becomes the waist pushing hand. The leak is circular, and continues the small circular force to generate the pushing power.


I'll say that most Mantis guy's "intend" are more in striking and less in throwing.

That's my impression also. But for waist chop, he always had us train it for the throw.

[-N-]

Since you are using the other leg to block/hook/sweep your opponent's back leg, whether that hand should be used as a strike or just a push, it should not make any difference.

When we set up the leg part of the waist chop, we often don't make a big motion with the leg. It is just enter, contact, stick, and press with the leg to combine with the other motions to throw.

[-N-]

I prefer to use 2 men drills to "develop" combat skill and later on to use the forms training to "enhance" the combat skill. There are many advantages by using this approach. One advantages is you will never create any "dancer" and that's for sure.

+1

I like this method.

[YouKnowWho]

In actual application he would set up the "thread needle waist chop" by closing in quickly with a grab and a palm to face.

When the opponent reacts to the palm, ...

The disadvantage of this set up is you have to get hold of your opponent's back arm. This sometime is the most difficult thing to do because the distance between your back arm and your opponent's back arm are just too far. The advantage of this is as soon as you can control your opponent's back arm, his front leg will be easy for your reach.

If you can change this set up a bit different. The moment that your right leading arm contacts your opponent's leading right arm, the moment that you pull your opponent's right arm to his left. You then step in and hook/trip your opponent's "back leg" with your right leg when you use your left hand to push his waist. The advantage of this set up is you don't need to reach to your opponent's back arm. The disadvantage of this set up is you have to use your leading leg to reach to your opponent's back leg. Also a sweep may not be possible in this way.

After many years of trying, I feel the 2nd approach can work better than the 1st approach. The reason is simple. As long as you can generate enough forward momentum, you can always use your front leg to hook/trip your opponent's back leg.

What's your Mantis guy's opinion about this modification on "threading needle chopping waist"?

[-N-]

After many years of trying, I feel the 2nd approach can work better than the 1st approach. The reason is simple. As long as you can generate enough forward momentum, you can always use your front leg to hook/trip your opponent's back leg.

What's your Mantis guy's opinion about this modification on "threading needle chopping waist"?

I have not tried this approach for front leg to catch the opponents back leg from the front. I've done it for the front leg if I make him put too much weight on it. I scoop the leg, but I'm not close enough to push the waist.

So the second approach goes directly into the throw, which is probably very suitable for one with your background. I probably would not be very finesseful in using it.


The disadvantage of this set up is you have to get hold of your opponent's back arm. This sometime is the most difficult thing to do because the distance between your back arm and your opponent's back arm are just too far. The advantage of this is as soon as you can control your opponent's back arm, his front leg will be easy for your reach.

This version classically is set up with a fake attack.

If right lead grabs the opponent's right lead, left back hand can make a palm attack to the face. The attack needs to be deep enough to make the opponent lean backwards. Your palm is already on his face, and he gives you his back arm when he tries to parry. You don't have to reach for his arm. You only have to hit to the face as we normally like to do.

The first attack is not the real attack. It is misdirection to make him give you his back arm so that you can thread in your waist chop throw without him realizing.

Even if he doesn't react with his back arm, you can just grab his head, neck, collar, shoulder or whatever that is on his left side and continue with the throw.

The throw has to be hidden in the middle of his reaction to the strike attack.

In both approaches, the forward momentum or gap closing is required. Too many times people are not deep enough with the leg maneuver when they try to waist chop throw.

[-N-]

Btw, sometimes we deliberately make the first attack slightly slower so the person can try to parry. That is so he will give us his left hand and we don't have to work so hard.

[Three Harmonies]

When doing cut waist one does not need to grab the rear arm to make it effective. One can grab the wrist, also you can steal the neck and still get cut waist.

JAB

[YouKnowWho]

In both approaches, the forward momentum or gap closing is required. Too many times people are not deep enough with the leg maneuver when they try to waist chop throw.

Where to put your foot before your move is so important. There is no way to train this in solo form. When I train solo, I like to put 2 marks on the ground (as my opponent's feet) so I have some reference points.


When doing cut waist one does not need to grab the rear arm to make it effective. One can grab the wrist, also you can steal the neck and still get cut waist.

JAB
That will work just fine. I just hate that extra dependency (grab the rear arm). It will be really nice that your opponent will stay in a "cross stance" with his right foot forward and left arm forward.

[-N-]

It's to my understanding that footwork will ultimately "collide" with the opponent once within range, resulting in a percussive force (kick) with or without the knockdown. Thus, it got all wrapped up into "legwork".


The knockdown cadence is camouflaged by the rhythm of the strikes, making the transition nearly undetectable. Threading Needle Chopping waist and Silk Entwining Hand are examples of the seamless transition from striking/trapping to tripping/knockdown.

Sounds good to me! :)

[-N-]

Where to put your foot before your move is so important. There is no way to train this in solo form.

Yep. The form only describes the idea. Partner training is absolutely required.

[Michael Dasargo]

hey guys,

so we experimented with trying to capture the essence of 7 star and 8 step through fight simulations. the problem is, most of it you can feel, and less of it you can see. so needless to say, we had many takes, and might finally fold and do illustrative demo's rather than free sparring. in any case:

take 5:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVnfREMY1ns

gittin ugly with it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KR-2G***c7k

levelin' up in modern warfare 2 (incoming text message...timing couldn't be better)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLqAsE28cNA

[EarthDragon]

very nice Michael, thank you for sharing, really liked the flavor when you went to 8 step in the first video, however the 2nd video was not playing but again nice to share and entertaining to watch. makes me want to start recording some stuff and sharing with everyone, PS love the floor is it puzzle interlocking wood? or laminate with a wood pattern? either way its nice,

[mooyingmantis]

Mike,
Nice demonstration of mixing the feet and hands together by both players!

[Michael Dasargo]

wupps...okay here's the link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KR-2G***c7k

an unrelated one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjj3ae3HBFA

darn it! it seems there are letters in the link that's getting bleeped with *** in the link. Here are the video's on my blog:

http://www.sandiegofitnessmartialarts.com/blog/entry/1098801

PS
it's puzzle mats =P

[Syn7]

just put a space in the middle of the word that its censoring... then we can all cut n paste it and remove the space manually...


the censor thing is a royal pain in the ass ay

[Michael Dasargo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KR-2GF A g c7k

ha! take that you monkey fightin' snakes!

[mooyingmantis]

Reading this thread again today inspired me to teach on the subject of kicking purposes in class tonight. I am sure this will not be new to anyone here, but it is an example of how I teach the kicking arts.

In our school I see three main purposes for leg techniques:

To Advance:
Kicks are used to bridge the gap between the opponents, so that hand, elbow and knee techniques can be employed.

To Stick:
Kicks, trips and sweeps are interspersed between hand, elbow and knee techniques to destroy the opponent's root, injure the opponent's legs while the opponent's head and upper body are pummeled, and prevent the opponent from breaking contact.

To Retreat:
A good example of this is commonly found in the forms of 7*PM and TJPM. A right closed door kick (閉 門 腿 bi men tui) is thrown into the opponent's bladder/groin area. The right foot is then placed to the rear (the opposite direction of the kick) in a twist step. Next, the left foot is withdrawn away from the opponent forming a Back Bow Stance. Finally, the Mantis practitioner pivots on both heels facing the opponent in a Tiger Riding Stance and double lift palms are employed. This technique can be used to create space between the opponent and the Mantis practitioner. However, if one skips the turn and Tiger Riding Stance, one can simply run away after the left foot has completed its withdrawl from the opponent.

[Michael Dasargo]

here are some notes on leg catching:
http://www.sandiegofitnessmartialarts.com/blog/entry/1114541

http://www.facebook.com/pages/San-Diego-CA/Immortal-Fitness-Martial-Arts/193780429680?ref=ts#!/pages/San-Diego-CA/Immortal-Fitness-Martial-Arts/193780429680?ref=ts