You must be kidding.

[Hendrik]

Anyone who really study the Chinese History and the development of the WCK knows,
There is no such thing as secret society WCK.

WCK means the martial art of the opera people, It is a collection of many different southern Chinese Martial art with SLT concept/philosophy/ as the core of the WCK.
And these opera people are a part of secret society which later lead into uprising in 1850 against the Qing Empire leading by the actor Lee Man Mau.


WCK is the art of secret society. There is no such thing as secret WCK within the WCK which already is the martial art of the Opera secret society.


From Shang Hai's Dien Chun Dang to Keng Fa union of Canton, From the secret code from Shang Hai's little knife society to the Keng Fa union where CLF and Hung Mun active big time in 1850.

There exit the secret code of different sect of this secret society to identify themself among the family and the code preserve down to today since 1850 era.

The funny part of the claim of the secret society WCK within the WCK in the present history is that NONE of these so called Blue, White...... flag, secret society WCK has or known of the code to identify themself in 1850 and also has no relation at all with LEE MAN MAU and CLF's Chang Heung who were the top of the mountain at that time, the leader of the leaders in the uprising within the secret society.


Not to mention, these so called secret society WCK as were presented today at this second, Doesnt have any uniqueness of WCK at all.




Sorry,
center line philosophy is not WCK unigueness but White Crane from Fujian.
Using Two hands at the same time also is not WCK but White Crane.
Keep a distance or an angle is also not WCK uniqueness.
Kiu Sau is not WCK uniqueness



and What is the uniqueness of WCK? I expect the hell break loose soon to argue here however, I can guarentee, NONE of these argue-tors can precisely and concisely speak out what is the Uniqueness of WCK.


Time to take a look of what is WCK beyond movies and marketing.

It is excellent that everyone being so royal and defend their sifu or si jo... but what if your sifu or sijo lies?

[shawchemical]

Anyone who really study the Chinese History and the development of the WCK knows,
There is no such thing as secret society WCK.

WCK means the martial art of the opera people, It is a collection of many different southern Chinese Martial art with SLT concept/philosophy/ as the core of the WCK.
And these opera people are a part of secret society which later lead into uprising in 1850 against the Qing Empire leading by the actor Lee Man Mau.


WCK is the art of secret society. There is no such thing as secret WCK within the WCK which already is the martial art of the Opera secret society.


From Shang Hai's Dien Chun Dang to Keng Fa union of Canton, From the secret code from Shang Hai's little knife society to the Keng Fa union where CLF and Hung Mun active big time in 1850.

There exit the secret code of different sect of this secret society to identify themself among the family and the code preserve down to today since 1850 era.

The funny part of the claim of the secret society WCK within the WCK in the present history is that NONE of these so called Blue, White...... flag, secret society WCK has or known of the code to identify themself in 1850 and also has no relation at all with LEE MAN MAU and CLF's Chang Heung who were the top of the mountain at that time, the leader of the leaders in the uprising within the secret society.


Not to mention, these so called secret society WCK as were presented today at this second, Doesnt have any uniqueness of WCK at all.




Sorry,
center line philosophy is not WCK but White Crane from Fujian.
Using Two hands at the same time also is not WCK but White Crane.
Keep a distance or an angle is also not WCK.
Kiu Sau is not WCK.



and What is the uniqueness of WCK? I expect the hell break loose soon to argue here however, I can guarentee, NONE of these argue-tors can precisely and concisely speak out what is the Uniqueness of WCK.


Time to take a look of what is WCK beyond movies and marketing.

You are a moron hendrik.

Centre line is Definitely VT. It is not exclusively VT.
2 hands at the same time IS Vt, but not exclusively.

Take a long walk off a short pier, make the world a better place.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Anyone who really study the Chinese History and the development of the WCK knows,
There is no such thing as secret society WCK.

WCK means the martial art of the opera people, It is a collection of many different southern Chinese Martial art with SLT concept/philosophy/ as the core of the WCK.
And these opera people are a part of secret society which later lead into uprising in 1850 against the Qing Empire leading by the actor Lee Man Mau.


WCK is the art of secret society. There is no such thing as secret WCK within the WCK which already is the martial art of the Opera secret society.


From Shang Hai's Dien Chun Dang to Keng Fa union of Canton, From the secret code from Shang Hai's little knife society to the Keng Fa union where CLF and Hung Mun active big time in 1850.

There exit the secret code of different sect of this secret society to identify themself among the family and the code preserve down to today since 1850 era.

The funny part of the claim of the secret society WCK within the WCK in the present history is that NONE of these so called Blue, White...... flag, secret society WCK has or known of the code to identify themself in 1850 and also has no relation at all with LEE MAN MAU and CLF's Chang Heung who were the top of the mountain at that time, the leader of the leaders in the uprising within the secret society.


Not to mention, these so called secret society WCK as were presented today at this second, Doesnt have any uniqueness of WCK at all.




Sorry,
center line philosophy is not WCK unigueness but White Crane from Fujian.
Using Two hands at the same time also is not WCK but White Crane.
Keep a distance or an angle is also not WCK uniqueness.
Kiu Sau is not WCK uniqueness



and What is the uniqueness of WCK? I expect the hell break loose soon to argue here however, I can guarentee, NONE of these argue-tors can precisely and concisely speak out what is the Uniqueness of WCK.


Time to take a look of what is WCK beyond movies and marketing.

It is excellent that everyone being so royal and defend their sifu or si jo... but what if your sifu or sijo lies?

I am not really sure about what you are getting at. So there are some made up histories in WC and you prefer one over another? I am pretty sure that they are all made up. WC does not possess anything completely unique unto itself? Yea so what? It is hard for me to grasp why these points are significant.

[RB93SAAT]

hendrik, it just appeared suddenly black flag, red flag, yellow flag, green flag and white flag everywhere. you might never know if yik kam got his white crane wc from white flag wc in fukien.:eek:


http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=88994&page=2
5-flag bandits started in the mid 1800’s, starting as a small group of a few hundred members and growing as large as 100,000 members by the early 1900’s. During this same period between mid 1800’s to early 1900’s, China fell and rebuilt. From the mid 1800’s, China’s control over different regions fractured and fell under control of different foreign powers. This chaos gave rise to lawlessness, bandits and the formation of the 5-flag bandits in Shandong province. This is the only period of time that the 5-flags existed in China’s history. Shandong province, Black Flag/5-Flag and Japan are all connected by this turmoil time period. Japan had influence and control of Shandong province that allowed the 5-flag bandits to grow. The 5-flag bandits expanded from Shandong province to other regions of China to grow in power and membership as high as 100,000. There is no dispute Fukien had black flag gang members because of these internal struggle in China. Into the 1900’s China struggled to unify and regain political and economical power for the Chinese people. There was a lot of resentment from the Chinese people toward foreigners and bandits, so much that the 5-flag bandits had to go into hiding. The resentment was especially high for Chinese who killed and robbed Chinese. The 5-flag bandits hid where they could for fear of being identified and executed. So it makes logical sense that by 1903, anybody found to be a member of black flag bandits or any of the 5 flags bandits, would have to fear for his life if his identity was found out by the Chinese people or government. It also makes logical sense for one to flee outside of China to such places as Indonesia. For these reasons, it makes logical sense that black flag gang members had to be a secret. The VTM and Black Flag don't dispute that black flag members learned Fukien Lo Han kung fu. What's NOT TRUE is there never was a 5 flag Wing Chun or black flag Wing Chun, it never existed! Kenneth Lin’s Fukien Black Flag is really Lo Han kung fu. According to the VTM report: “the nucleus of black flag comes from “Cap Pwee Lo Han Jiu” (18 Lo Han ‘Open Hand’ [Jiu])”. Also according to black flag, King Yang learned 5 ancestors. The only Wing Chun connection is that Kenneth Lin learned Vikoga Wing Chun from Victor Leow lineage and of which Black Flag today calls female wing chun (Yim Wing Chun/Ng Mui). Lo Han Jiu/5 Ancestors make up the Black Flag so called male wing chun for the 5 male ancestors. All this info is from Black Flag though the years. The Black Flag wing chun video on youtube doesn’t prove anything but support the VTM and Black Flag web site revisions that Black Flag is really Lo Han. The few pictures on the video, shows students doing Fukien Lo Han Kung Fu. In summary and it’s a long list: Fukien Lo Han, 5 Ancestors kung fu, Black Flag gang member from Fukien, Vikoga Wing Chun, 5-flag wing chun, 5-bandana wing chun, 5-lodges wing chun, 5 male wing chun(5 male ancestors)/ 1 female wing chun(Yim Wing Chun/Ng Mui), 5 Ancestor = 5 flag/banana/lodges, Kenneth Lin, VTM versus actual history show that “Black Flag Wing Chun” is made up. There are so many more holes to to expose but we know there will be many revisions/clarification from Black Flag and associates. Note that all this information came from Black Flag over the years. If you take an objective review yourself you will find the same inconsistencies. I find this insulting to all generation of the Chinese people, all Shaolin Kung Fu and the martial art seekers.

[Hendrik]

hahaha,

See, as predicted, most people like to express but doesnt touch what is WCK's uniqueness.

It is extremely silly to argue about something one is clueless isnt it?

But in the forum, this silly type of arguement goes on and on and on and some even make themself a MASTER out of it.


So, if some one is going to create another gold label WCK tomorrow, we are the problem, because we are clueless on what is the uniqueness of WCK. if we know what is it, then NO one has chanced to makes HIS-STORY because we know what is it.


IMHO, we need people like Rene to educate us, look at before and after the book Complete WCK, WCK is clearer after the book.

[HumbleWCGuy]

hahaha,

See, as predicted, most people like to express but doesnt touch what is WCK's uniqueness.

It is extremely silly to argue about something one is clueless isnt it?


I think that making a cryptic diatribe up that really culminates in probably one or 2 statements about the uniqueness of WC that probably don't hold up to tremendous scrutiny is probably more clueless, but...

WC shares many things with other southern systems, I could not necessarily tell you that I was looking at WC versus some other Southern systme in a live fighting scenario, in every instance. I think that anyone who has a decently broad understanding of Southern kung fu would agree. I would especially say that is the case if you are talking about main-land lineages which havent been so Larpetized to where it is more about looking a certain way than it is actually winning fights.

[Wayfaring]

So, if some one is going to create another gold label WCK tomorrow, we are the problem, because we are clueless on what is the uniqueness of WCK. if we know what is it, then NO one has chanced to makes HIS-STORY because we know what is it.


I agree here. Creating another gold label of WCK that it is basically nothing more than a decendant of White Crane and Emei 12 Hands is definitely clueless with respect to what the uniqueness of WCK is.

I don't know anyone who would be clueless enough to do such a thing.

Do you?

[HumbleWCGuy]

I think that I get this. This is about discrediting Benny Meng and VTM. One of my first posts was about this sort of thing. If you ask me Benny is just trying to take a WC lineage and market it as an ancient form of mma.

A secret society with secret techniques is the best way to do it. Every so often when the system needs updating "new" ancient and secret techniques, weapons, and tactics can be revealed to compensate for deficiencies in performance or marketing. You can't discredit his claims because a secret society.... well... is secret. Therefore, the claims cannot be discredited from the outside.

Its the same as instructors who always give the illusion of holding back a little bit. There is always presumably more that they have that you are waiting on. In addition, they can roll out something new that they learned at any time and pretend that it was there all along.

[Hendrik]

I agree here.

Creating another gold label of WCK that it is basically nothing more than a decendant of White Crane and Emei 12 Hands is definitely clueless with respect to what the uniqueness of WCK is.

I don't know anyone who would be clueless enough to do such a thing.

Do you?

White Crane and Emei 12Zhuang or as refer as the Emei snake are an identify-able elements in the Chinese martial art history and official history which 100% contribute to the SLT for certain ancient WCK lineage and it is as solid as gold.

It is a facture part of WCK thus it doesnt need to be label for marketing purpose.




and what is your style of WCK if it is not based on White Crane an Emei snake?
why do your WCK is WCK ?
can your WCK lineage be verify by the Chinese history records?
Can you describe the uniqueness of your WCK?

[Hendrik]

I think that I get this. This is about discrediting Benny Meng and VTM. One of my first posts was about this sort of thing. If you ask me Benny is just trying to take a WC lineage and market it as an ancient form of mma.

A secret society with secret techniques is the best way to do it. Every so often when the system needs updating "new" ancient and secret techniques, weapons, and tactics can be revealed to compensate for deficiencies in performance or marketing. You can't discredit his claims because a secret society.... well... is secret. Therefore, the claims cannot be discredited from the outside.

Its the same as instructors who always give the illusion of holding back a little bit. There is always presumably more that they have that you are waiting on. In addition, they can roll out something new that they learned at any time and pretend that it was there all along.



It got nothing to do with discredit who.

it is all about educating the people instead of keeping them in a cult and manupulate them.

and also keep ourself HONEST.

It is the time to clean up our act. similar to print the ingredient label on the food.

[Wayfaring]

White Crane and Emei 12Zhuang or as refer as the Emei snake are an identify-able elements in the Chinese martial art history and official history which 100% contribute to the SLT for certain ancient WCK lineage and it is as solid as gold.

It is a facture part of WCK thus it doesnt need to be label for marketing purpose.


So at what point did the snake and crane elements that you say were added to WCK to "100% contribute to the SLT" stop being snake and crane and start being WCK?

I mean sure, everyone can see movements that look like they come from those animal styles of kung fu, but so what?

Who started "marketing" those things as WCK?

Everybody "markets" things they are interested in convincing others of. Just because you label your ideas as "facts" doesn't make it any less you marketing your ideas.

[Hendrik]

So at what point did the snake and crane elements
that you say were added to WCK to "100% contribute to the SLT"
stop being snake and crane and start being WCK?


In stead of the way how your question post;


As all the older lineages of known in 1800 such as YSK and LJ Ko Lu mention WCK is a fusion of Crane and Snake,

The proper question for this subject is

So at what point did the snake and crane elements missed out from the WCK and stop being WCK?




I mean sure, everyone can see movements that look like they come from those animal styles of kung fu, but so what?


Solidly,

1, it is not about "look like they come from those animal styles of Kung Fu".
It is little to do with Animal or look a like at all.

2, SLT/WCK is using both conditioning and application principle from these two pre Wing Chun Kuen mother style.

WCK is a technology, technology comes from mother technology instead of Secret Society or Buddhist temple or Buddhism which say nothing and unrelated with technology.

These above have solid evidence which anyone could trace for the past 200 years at least.




Who started "marketing" those things as WCK?


The proper question is Who started to "marketing" those WCK without Crane and Snake as WCK? and why ?




Everybody "markets" things they are interested in convincing others of. Just because you label your ideas as "facts" doesn't make it any less you marketing your ideas.


Not everyone, some people similar to myself, interested in only Trace out what is happening and what is the facts and tell the world.

It is about the FACTS not about getting agreement or MARKETING.




Finally,
you have been not answering my question on your WCK which I have post in the previous post.

Please share your view on you WCK. Why your WCK is WCK?

[Wayfaring]

In stead of the way how your question post;


As all the older lineages of known in 1800 such as YSK and LJ Ko Lu mention WCK is a fusion of Crane and Snake,

The proper question for this subject is

So at what point did the snake and crane elements missed out from the WCK and stop being WCK?

Snake and Crane each had their own identity. WCK by nature of it having a different name, and by having combined elements, was no longer either Snake or Crane.

In fact, at the time they were combined you could call them a mixed martial art.
According to your factual history, WCK established its own identity as a mixed martial art.


Solidly,

1, it is not about "look like they come from those animal styles of Kung Fu".
It is little to do with Animal or look a like at all.

That is incorrect. The reason that the southern animal styles were named after animals is they had attributes that appeared like the animals. Nothing magic there. Otherwise they would have names of the kung fu like "long fist", or "lohan" which are among their sister arts in the southern system.


2, SLT/WCK is using both conditioning and application principle from these two pre Wing Chun Kuen mother style.

So SLT/WCK is a MMA form. Good to know. And the form was used for conditioning and application.


WCK is a technology, technology comes from mother technology instead of Secret Society or Buddhist temple or Buddhism which say nothing and unrelated with technology.

So to you, WCK is a mixed martial art consisting of combined technologies from snake and crane. Good to know. Nice opinion.


These above have solid evidence which anyone could trace for the past 200 years at least.

There is no "solid evidence" as to what people trained. Only names and families. There is a local school called "White Tiger Kung Fu Society". It's listed in the yellow pages. Does that mean there is "solid evidence" of what BS they train there? No more is there "solid evidence" of what was trained 200 years ago.



The proper question is Who started to "marketing" those WCK without Crane and Snake as WCK? and why ?

Not sure. Many WCK images and logos have cranes and snakes on them. Many don't. Who cares? There's a "Feiyue Shoes" ad with some silly kung fu shoes on the page right now as I type, next to the KungFuMagazine.com logo. Why should I care what ads are up there?



Not everyone, some people similar to myself, interested in only Trace out what is happening and what is the facts and tell the world.

It is about the FACTS not about getting agreement or MARKETING.

When the FACTS are few and scattered, people fill in details with their OPINION. That is MARKETING.

You do this. You have a pet theory about WCK origins. You have a high level of attachment to this theory. You MARKET your OPINION on WCK origins.

[Hendrik]

Snake and Crane each had their own identity. WCK by nature of it having a different name, and by having combined elements, was no longer either Snake or Crane.

???? WCK by nature of it having a different name?

Which lineage of WCK are you from? Show us, what do you mean.

Show us what is the Uniqueness of WCK per your lineage and the evidence which could be traced.


Sorry, I am not interested in your logic or your speculation.





That is incorrect. The reason that the southern animal styles were named after animals is they had attributes that appeared like the animals. Nothing magic there. Otherwise they would have names of the kung fu like "long fist", or "lohan" which are among their sister arts in the southern system.


WCK is not southern animal styles. Thus, you correct or incorrectness doesn applied.

Again, Show us what is the Uniqueness of WCK and your WCK. otherwise, you are speculate something you dont know.



So SLT/WCK is a MMA form. Good to know. And the form was used for conditioning and application.

MMA????
Again, more and more your signature shown, you thinking pattern is the modern Western type. That doesnt applied to the ancient Chinese creation of WCK.





There is no "solid evidence" as to what people trained. Only names and families. There is a local school called "White Tiger Kung Fu Society". It's listed in the yellow pages.

Does that mean there is "solid evidence" of what BS they train there?

No more is there "solid evidence" of what was trained 200 years ago.


Again, your thinking pattern doesnt applied to the Chinese.

Easily any true expert in CMA can shows you 200 years old or more training method and technology.



Not sure. Many WCK images and logos have cranes and snakes on them. Many don't. Who cares? There's a "Feiyue Shoes" ad with some silly kung fu shoes on the page right now as I type, next to the KungFuMagazine.com logo. Why should I care what ads are up there?


It is nothing to do with logo....etc.

It is the Uniquiness of WCK. either you have it or you dont. Based on your post above, if you still couldnt share your lineage and the uniquiness of WCK then the only conclusion is you dont know. and thus, what to discuss?




You do this. You have a pet theory about WCK origins. You have a high level of attachment to this theory. You MARKET your OPINION on WCK origins.


The above is called blind conclusion without knowing what is going on.


you certainly dont know what is known today is a convergence of (a) old WCK family from YKS to Fung, (b) related CMA style :White Crane, Emei, and (C) Chinese History record.

It is not a theory it is a summary of evidence from different traceable WCK lineage, verification and endosement from the mother arts.



I am sure we here all very interested on your lineage of WCK, its uniqueness, what is WCK's uniqueness. Do share your lineage FACTS so that the audience could compare and make up their mind.

[Yang Style]

Intresting.

[Wayfaring]

???? WCK by nature of it having a different name?
I know this is hard logic for you to follow here. When people practice an art, or change the art and personalize it they call it a different name. So yes, if what your theory is is true, then at some point the kung fu practitioners, disciples, lineage holders of snake and crane kung fu would have changed the name of it when they combined them. Or else WCK would still be called Emei, or White Crane.
We have modern examples of this as well. The Gracies modified Japanese Jiu Jitsu in its training method. They changed the name to Brazilian Jiu Jitsu or Gracie Jiu Jitsu.

WCK is not southern animal styles. Thus, you correct or incorrectness doesn applied.
Well I for one don’t think it is. But it’s not me that’s marketing my opinion of WCK coming from snake and crane styles. That’s you.


MMA????
Again, more and more your signature shown, you thinking pattern is the modern Western type. That doesnt applied to the ancient Chinese creation of WCK.

Right. Because no Chinese kung fu master would ever study more than one type of kung fu in their lifetime.
Wait. They actually DID.
So yes, they practiced Mixed (more than one) Martial Arts. Oh, no. But that’s Western.
My thinking pattern is logic. If something makes sense to me East or West it makes sense. If it is not logical, then the origin is irrelevant. Plus, there are so many times around here where you talk about “engines”, “technology”, and “physics”. Western words. So they’re OK when you’re using them to build concepts but if you disagree with someone you turn into an Eastern philosophy bigot looking down on Western thinking.


Again, your thinking pattern doesnt applied to the Chinese.
Easily any true expert in CMA can shows you 200 years old or more training method and technology.

Logic is a universal language. But it contradicts fantasy. Sure with the Chinese value to honor ancestors, there is more precision in carrying things down to future generations. But there is nothing absolute when it comes to human behavior, East or West.


It is nothing to do with logo....etc.

You were the one that introduced “marketing” into the conversation. So now “marketing” has nothing to do with logos? Please enlighten us further.


It is the Uniquiness of WCK. either you have it or you dont.

I’ve seen plenty of wck that doesn’t have “uniqueness” or anything to teach me. They have the label though.


you certainly dont know what is known today is a convergence of (a) old WCK family from YKS to Fung, (b) related CMA style :White Crane, Emei, and (C) Chinese History record.

It is not a theory it is a summary of evidence from different traceable WCK lineage, verification and endosement from the mother arts.

Summary of evidence? LMAO. There are so many holes in history it’s unreliable. It’s your THEORY. Your ATTACHMENT to the theory causes you to call it things like SUMMARY OF EVIDENCE.


I am sure we here all very interested on your lineage of WCK, its uniqueness, what is WCK's uniqueness. Do share your lineage FACTS so that the audience could compare and make up their mind.
No, “we here all” are not very interested. Most here know my background. I’ve been posting on these boards for years now.
I’m not going to do your work for you as a historian if you’re too lazy to use a search function or to remember who I am. But it does speak very loudly as to habit patterns. What habits did you use in your “research” to come up with your THEORY?

[Hendrik]

You might be a good lawyer who love to play with words.

However,

Your posts shown you dont have any background on advance Chinese Martial art training and its tradition.


As for WCK, posts after posts, you have never said a thing on what is your lineage? What is the uniqueness of your lineage of WCK and How is your lineage of WCK fit into the Snake and Crane model where ALL the older Trace able known WCK lineage address.


WCK is not about Words playing but FACTS. and FACTS which are traceable across lineages and across chinese history.

Your post do shows one thing, you seem to defend making HIS-STORY and Marketing. Perhaps you belongs to that group of people.

However, I am not cast you in stone based on your post, you have a chance to show your true understanding of WCK now. Otherwise, the conclusion is obvious, isnt it?

And also, to all other reader here, I would not continuous to response to a WORDS only post for that is both wasting your and my time.





I know this is hard logic for you to follow here. When people practice an art, or change the art and personalize it they call it a different name. So yes, if what your theory is is true, then at some point the kung fu practitioners, disciples, lineage holders of snake and crane kung fu would have changed the name of it when they combined them. Or else WCK would still be called Emei, or White Crane.
We have modern examples of this as well. The Gracies modified Japanese Jiu Jitsu in its training method. They changed the name to Brazilian Jiu Jitsu or Gracie Jiu Jitsu.

Well I for one don’t think it is. But it’s not me that’s marketing my opinion of WCK coming from snake and crane styles. That’s you.

Right. Because no Chinese kung fu master would ever study more than one type of kung fu in their lifetime.
Wait. They actually DID.
So yes, they practiced Mixed (more than one) Martial Arts. Oh, no. But that’s Western.
My thinking pattern is logic. If something makes sense to me East or West it makes sense. If it is not logical, then the origin is irrelevant. Plus, there are so many times around here where you talk about “engines”, “technology”, and “physics”. Western words. So they’re OK when you’re using them to build concepts but if you disagree with someone you turn into an Eastern philosophy bigot looking down on Western thinking.

Logic is a universal language. But it contradicts fantasy. Sure with the Chinese value to honor ancestors, there is more precision in carrying things down to future generations. But there is nothing absolute when it comes to human behavior, East or West.

You were the one that introduced “marketing” into the conversation. So now “marketing” has nothing to do with logos? Please enlighten us further.

I’ve seen plenty of wck that doesn’t have “uniqueness” or anything to teach me. They have the label though.

Summary of evidence? LMAO. There are so many holes in history it’s unreliable. It’s your THEORY. Your ATTACHMENT to the theory causes you to call it things like SUMMARY OF EVIDENCE.

No, “we here all” are not very interested. Most here know my background. I’ve been posting on these boards for years now.
I’m not going to do your work for you as a historian if you’re too lazy to use a search function or to remember who I am. But it does speak very loudly as to habit patterns. What habits did you use in your “research” to come up with your THEORY?

[t_niehoff]

You might be a good lawyer who love to play with words.


Hey! Is someone here trying to cut in on my gig? ;)

[Wayfaring]

Your posts shown you dont have any background on advance Chinese Martial art training and its tradition.

Just because I don't agree with your THEORY doesn't mean I don't have background in CMA.


As for WCK, posts after posts, you have never said a thing on what is your lineage? What is the uniqueness of your lineage of WCK and How is your lineage of WCK fit into the Snake and Crane model where ALL the older Trace able known WCK lineage address.

That's because we are not talking about me and my lineage or lineages in arts in this thread. You brought that up to take the focus off of what this thread is about. Someone was talking about how ridiculous all the recent colored flag classification was, which it is, and you started talking about your THEORY of the uniqueness of WCK.

I started making observations that according to your THEORY, it's not all that unique if it is just a blended CMA animal system.

Then you started in on your lectures, lecturing me what is and is not proper questions, and all the time turning the focus off of the issue, which is YOU and YOUR THEORY.

So prove your theory. We are all waiting.



WCK is not about Words playing but FACTS. and FACTS which are traceable across lineages and across chinese history.

I've seen what little FACTS you have to support your THEORY. They are not compelling to me at all. If you want people to be convinced beyond THEORY, you need to present COMPELLING EVIDENCE.



Your post do shows one thing, you seem to defend making HIS-STORY and Marketing. Perhaps you belongs to that group of people.

No, most people do marketing in place of skill. If there is geniuine skill there usually is not a lot of need for marketing. Some people like to make things up to feel what they are studying is more authentic or prestigious.

I don't care about such things.


And also, to all other reader here, I would not continuous to response to a WORDS only post for that is both wasting your and my time.
So then take your own advice. Prove the uniqueness of your WCK.

[Hendrik]

So then take your own advice. Prove the uniqueness of your WCK.


Snake and Crane fusion uniqueness signature exist in all the older WCK lineage:

From Fung Family, YKS, Yip Man, Yik Kam....... , From Sung Num of YKS to Gary Lam to Fung elder of Ko Lo to Robert Chu. It is there.

My WCK from Yik Kam has no different that them because we all are WCK.



So, what is the uniqueness of your WCK? how can you prove your WCK is WCK?
You can take this chance to share.

However, NO theory please, we need Trace-able FACTS from multiple source and WCK lineages.

[hskwarrior]

hendrik, it just appeared suddenly black flag, red flag, yellow flag, green flag and white flag everywhere. you might never know if yik kam got his white crane wc from white flag wc in fukien.


so they really have these FLAG SOCIETIES as you guys are describing? before i look silly, do you guys know the backgrounds of the colored flags?

i ask because the Hung Mun has its own group of flags and colors, and minus the yellow one mentioned, it sounds similar to that of the Hung Mun.

http://bookweb.kinokuniya.co.jp/imgdata/476465105X.jpg

[Hendrik]

so they really have these FLAG SOCIETIES as you guys are describing? before i look silly, do you guys know the backgrounds of the colored flags?

i ask because the Hung Mun has its own group of flags and colors, and minus the yellow one mentioned, it sounds similar to that of the Hung Mun.

http://bookweb.kinokuniya.co.jp/imgdata/476465105X.jpg



Frank,

Wing Chun Kuen means the martial art of the Opera people in early 1800 era.

Within the Opera people who practice Wing Chun Kuen are lots of Hung Mun connection such at Lee Man Mau....etc . As you could read from Rene's article.

IE: my ancestor Yik Kam is a Hung Mun, thus he leaves us with the stanza or his operation code in his time where we could trace up to the Small knife union and Taiping heavenly kingdom and CLF's Cheng Heung....etc.




Now, Saying the above, IMHHHHHO, it is absurd to coin a name X flag or Y color Wing Chun.

See, Wing Chun has no flag, Hung Mun is Hung Mung. They are different group of people eventhough they could be inter-related.


For example, the So called XX flag or Y color Wing Chun, IMHO, sorry that doesnt make sense at all in the history of China, the opera people catagorized things differently. the opera people catagorized group as the Male role, the female role.....etc.

Again, using my Ancestor Yik Kam as example, YIk Kam is a leader in the Female role group. One can go into history and check how Lee Man Mau set up his army to see these.



And also, Some of Wing Chun kuen's people is Hung Mun, but that doesnt mean Wing Chun Kuen is developed by Hung Mun university of martial art or the Hung Mun people is the top of this art.

Plain and simple, we know today Lee Man Mau is from White Crane Fujian. SLT is a fusion of White Crane Fujian and Emei's snake by Miu Shun a Kwan Xi Hung Mun, Cho family art is based on CLF and southern Shaolin....



And there are lots of signatures today from different field which we could trace to see how things converge. 1800 is not too far away to find out what happen.


I personally empathy and respect to lots of royal students or followers who defends whatever their sifu told them, and facing reality is hard. But then only facing reality one could move forward, some might take a life time to walk out of the trap some might never walk out of the illusion.


There is nothing wrong with calling one's art, the X flag Kung Fu or Y color Kung Fu but then naming it as X flag Opera performer's Kung Fu or X flag Wing Chun kuen is just too creative and off mark. since it is not what being practice by the Opera performers in 1800 era.


As I have told some Gar decendents what they did is Cho Gar Kuen, that is not WCK and not Cho Gar Yik Kam Wing Chun Kuen if it is not the 4 section SLT from Yik Kam.
Call what you evolve or invent as it is without muddy up and screw up the source and confuse the heck out of everyone. and somedays other will find out your creation.