The Choy Li Fut Name?

[ngokfei]

Had an innocent question so I hope it doesn't ignite into something more.

Choy Li Fut was named by Chan Heung based on his 3 teachers.

and he opened up schools/branches/clubs under that name.

Jeong Yim trained is said to have trained with a common teacher Li Yau San before training with Chan Heung for 5 years from the age of 12. Next we trained with Ching Mo.

So the question I have is Was Jeong Yim a disciple/representative of Chan Heung?

If not, why did he use Chan Heung's style name "Choy Li Fut"?

just curious and hope this doesn't cause a flame war.

thanks.

eric

[hskwarrior]

Choy Li Fut was named by Chan Heung based on his 3 teachers.

Chan Heung had three teachers and named his system after two of them and the fact that it all came from the Shaolin Temple, hence the Fut for meaning Buddha.



and he opened up schools/branches/clubs under that name.

Choy Lee Fut is the name of the system, not the school. so yes, HE opened his own school teaching the early stages of his new system.


Jeong Yim trained is said to have trained with a common teacher Li Yau San before training with Chan Heung for 5 years from the age of 12. Next we trained with Ching Mo.

yes...in 1836 Jeung Yim trained with Chan Heung till 1841 when he was 17 years old. Since Choy Lee Fut was nowhere near any kind of a complete stage, Jeung Yim only picked up what was taught within that 5 year period of its creation. So his training in CLF was incomplete. During the time he was under the Green Grass Monk CLF continued to EVOLVE and Jeung Yim wasn't there to be a part of that.

Then he trained under the Green Grass Monk, completing the system in 8 years. It was the Green Grass Monk that asked Jeung Yim to go to Fut San to teach the Hung Mun, NOT Chan Heung.

So, if Jeung Yim never completed his Lee Gar training under Lee Yau San, nor under Chan Heung, what was it that Jeung Yim was teaching in Fut San in 1851? Since the only system he completed was Fut Gar Kuen, it makes sense it was Fut Gar Kuen, and as he developed his fighting method it was mixed with whatever Choy Lee Fut he picked up and Lee Gar.

So while in Fut San was Jeung Yim representing Chan Heung and Choy Lee Fut? NO. He was only following instructions to open a school in fut san by the Green Grass Monk. It wasn't until Jeung Yim returned to Chan Heung sometime around 1864 or so that he returned to the Choy Lee Fut picture. During that time, jeung hung sing shared what he learned from the Green Grass Monk with Chan Heung. This is the point that CLF took on its FIRST transformation.

So to answer this question simply, yes Jeung Yim was a former disciple of Chan Heung, but NO, he was not in fut san representing chan heung in 1851.


f not, why did he use Chan Heung's style name "Choy Li Fut"?

It probably took place after Jeung Yim's return to chan heung after being OUT OF THE CHOY LEE FUT PICTURE for more than 20 years. and since Jeung Hung Sing knew the basic techniques of chan heung's choy lee fut, it's possible that Jeung Hung Sing agree'd to be part of the CLF family again.

But, it is rumored that Jeung Hung Sing never called his gung fu CHOY LEE FUT, it was others that did that. HUNG SING KUEN or even Fut Gar was used in the early stages from what i hear.

[extrajoseph]

It probably took place after Jeung Yim's return to chan heung after being OUT OF THE CHOY LEE FUT PICTURE for more than 20 years.

But, it is rumored that Jeung Hung Sing never called his gung fu CHOY LEE FUT, it was others that did that. HUNG SING KUEN or even Fut Gar was used in the early stages from what i hear.

Hi Frank,

Then why don't you and your Futsan elders go back to your root and call what you do HUNG SING KUEN or FUT GAR? Why keep the name CHOY LEE FUT? There is no need, it only creates confusion.

XJ

[hskwarrior]

We do it because it erks your nerves joseph....i know its like finger nails scratching a chalk board huh?

You do see Buk Hsing FUT GAR going on in Canada don't you? i think they had the right idea.

[hskwarrior]

lmao.....

JOSEPH,
your chan yiu chi records say Chan Heung sent Jeung Hung Sing to Fut San in 1867....

So how do you explain that the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon had been established 16 years prior to the date given by Chan Yiu Chi?

ngokfei,

it was agreed that Chan heung and Jeung Hung Sing would just continue to develop their gung fu they way they saw fit.

we don't deny that chan heung was jeung hung sing's former sifu.

[lkfmdc]

Having mucked around in a few prominent TCMA lineages and their history, I'd suggest that the real story may even be less clear and direct than the one here....

Politics at the time, in the time since and CURRENT politics,

Personal agendas, hissy fits, etc

And the general Chinese tendency to never do anything in a straight line

[hskwarrior]

Hi Frank,

Then why don't you and your Futsan elders go back to your root and call what you do HUNG SING KUEN or FUT GAR? Why keep the name CHOY LEE FUT? There is no need, it only creates confusion.

XJ

Because of people like YOU and Ngan Yiu Ting's late son, my sifu USES the HUNG SING KUEN name now more than ever because he doesn't want to be part of a group of people who think and act like you.

However, it was chan yong fa's people who tried to bring us back and say that NOT ALL people think and act like this.

[extrajoseph]

However, it was chan yong fa's people who tried to bring us back and say that NOT ALL people think and act like this.


Hi Frank,

Then is it not time for you to lay-off Chan Yiu-Chi, Chen Yong-Fa's grandfather?

XJ

[hskwarrior]

as long as you try to tell me to believe an outside source to my lineage's history ....

NO

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank,

No one asked you to believe, Chan Yiu-Chi has been dead and gone for a long time, I am just quoting his words, you don't have to believe them, it is just others can read them.

XJ

[hskwarrior]

YOU DID! :eek:

[extrajoseph]

No Frank, I don't ask you to believe them, I asked you and others to read them.

XJ

[hskwarrior]

what is the purpose of my elders reading it? what are you trying to accomplish?

what if my elders read your chan yiu chi account and still feel the same way?

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank,

It is not for your elders to read, it is for the forumers here to read.

XJ

[ngokfei]

thanks that answered my inquiry.

One thing I learned in China was that schools were predominantly named after the Teacher or Symbolic Group.

Its nice that here in the US the trend to resume this instead of just calling it by the style taught (ie: "Choy Li Fut Kung Fu school "into "John Doe Kung Fu School").

and wow didn't know that Jeong Yim's CLF doesn't have any of the sets taught by the Chan Family Lineage CLF.

If I may ask what are JY's Curriculum Hand Forms.

eric

[hskwarrior]

Today there are many, the ones that should be shared on a basic level are Cheung Kuen, Ping Kuen, Kau Da Kuen, Sup Ji Kuen.

Although the Chan Fam may have the same name for their sets, they are not the same in structure, material, or essence.

[ngokfei]

do I have it right?

Cheung Kuen 長拳(long fist),
Ping Kuen 平拳(level fist),
Kau Da Kuen 扣打拳(holding/knocking strike fist),
Sup Ji Kuen 十字拳("+" pattern fist)

thanks again.

[hskwarrior]

i don't know the chinese character for kau da kuen.

[Sunyang]

No Frank, I don't ask you to believe them, I asked you and others to read them.

XJ

Joseph,
Where we can read this?!

SY

[extrajoseph]

Hi Sunyang,

This time I think the whole thing started from this thread:

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=58193&page=2

Hi Frank,

You think new information only came out from Futsan, here is a new piece from the Chan Family archive for you, (as far as I can see what is in my hands, quite a few pages were written about Jeung Ah-Yim but the public will never see them - too controversial. Also Jeung never studied with Lee Yau-Shan, otherwise it would have been written down):

Jeung Ah-Yim's father was a stone mason working in Hong Kong when he met Chan Heung (Chan Heung was invited there by the Guangdong Village Association), he was impressed by Chan Heung's skill after he defeated a Russian boxer and wanted his son to study with Chan Heung.

Jeung Ah-Yim's father gave him the nick name Hung Sing (Victorious Hung) 洪勝 very early on and was never used as a CLF branch name like you insisted, because he taught his boy Hung Kuen very young and wanted him to grow up to be a winner with his Kung Fu study.

I can understand you won't believe me because this is written in Chan Yiu-Chi hand writing and not by his father Koon-Pak or by Chan Heung himself (I don't have these records). You are going to say it is just made up by Chan Yiu-Chi.

I'll leave at that.

XJ

BTW, you just turned 43 and I just turned 63, so happy birthday!

[hskwarrior]

THANK YOU JOSEPH FOR TAKING THE TIME TO SHARE WHAT CHAN YIU CHI WROTE DOWN. HOWEVER, IT'S NOT THE SHARED INFORMATION OF THE FUT SAN HUNG SING KWOON.

The thing about Chan Koon Pak can be possible but as of yet i've never heard of this. yes, we all have controversial things to say about someone else don't we?

Since the small about of info you just provided, would you like to share some more of what chan Yiu Chi wrote? I will listen as i always like to learn something new.

oh an....happy birthday.

[extrajoseph]

Since the small about of info you just provided, would you like to share some more of what chan Yiu Chi wrote? I will listen as i always like to learn something new.


Hi Frank,

I just wrote a poem for you in another post, it is enough for one day. If you really want to know more, call your Chen Yong-Fa contacts in Sydney.:rolleyes:

XJ

[hskwarrior]

no i want you to tell me! Si bak!!!!!!

[hskwarrior]

why don't you go answer the question to why chan koon pak was using jeung hung sing's name and not his daddy's!!!!

[kfman5F]

Hi Frank,
Do you know if the names Choy Li (Lee?) Fut are the same as the Choy Li Fut of the Five Family Style (Ark Wong - Choy Li Fut Mok Hung) as you mentioned in an earlier post? I have always wondered about that. In the Five Family Style there is not much recorded history before Ark Wong, except for a few of his teachers names with no or little information about them. The Five Family Style has Fut, Long Fist and Buddha Palm forms. Maybe there is a connection. Lau Bun and Ark Wong were from the same village I was told.
Jay
Los Angeles Five Family Style :)

[hskwarrior]

I'd have to dig into your history to know more. but the cheung kuen you're talking about...is there any footage on that?

[kfman5F]

We didn't learn Chinese names for forms. What does cheung kuen mean? Doesn't kuen mean style?

[hskwarrior]

Cheung Kuen mean Long Fist. Are you saying that you can't trace Wong Ark Yuey's lineage?

[kfman5F]

Frank,
I copied this from a website. I can't verify any information. I will see about getting a vid of the long fist.

Grandmaster Ark Yuey Wong (Wong Ark-Yuey) was born in the large village of Toysun Tien Sum Chien, Canton, Southern China, in 1899/1900 into a moderately wealthy family. Early on, he was exposed to the ancient fighting arts as a need to defend himself from articulated or actual threats of harm. In those days bandits roamed the countryside and Wong's grandfather made all males in the Wong family study kung fu, if they were to receive any inheritance. A younger jealous brother, in order to weaken the older man and obtain his wealth, attacked his great-grandfather. Upon recovering from the attack, the old man decreed that all his male descendants were obligated to
learn Kung Fu when they started school at the age of seven.

It was at that age that Ark Wong began his training under 14 masters within a Shao Lin Temple (Sifu Wong explained that the Cantonese pronunciation of "Siu Lam", sometimes seen as Sil Lum is the same as the more popular term Shao Lin). His first Shifu was the well-respected master, Lam Ark Fun. Master Lam was rather old at this time but still highly revered as a great teacher of the art of Choy Li Fut. At the age of twelve, Ark Wong was taught the art of Chinese Herbal Medicine, a skill that he would employ extensively later in life from Master Lam. Ark Wong studied under another well-respected master, Ho Ark Yeng from whom he learned Mawk Gar Kung Fu. Both Master Lam and Master Ho were hired by a representative of the great-grandfather to teach the Wong family exclusively. In his later teens, Ark Wong went to college and gave private Kung-fu lessons in Canton. It was during this time that he met Pung/Pang, the chief monk of the Canton area and one of the greatest Kung-fu fighters in China. He studied under this master for a year and a half. Previously, all of Wong's training was of the external aspects of Kung Fu. It was from Pung that he began to learn the internal aspects. Master Pung invited Wong to his ascetic quarters and told him to place a lighted candle at the end of the room. According to Wong, Pung was able to chop the candle in half from yards away, merely with a flick of the finger. “I had heard of power like that, but I had never seen it demonstrated”, Wong recalled years ago. When civil unrest occurred in Canton, Wong returned to his village.

Here in Lin Chuan Yuan, Putien County, he opened a Kung Fu school for his family and the younger children of the area. One New Year's, as was the custom, all the Kung Fu schools gathered to put on the "Lion Dancing" demonstration. On the basis of these demonstrations by the different schools the masters were chosen. Only the best demonstrators would receive the title "Master." At the remarkable age, of
nineteen, Wong Ark Yuey was made Master.

Master Wong immigrated to the United States in his early twenties, around 1921. His uncle taught him Chinese herbal healing and acupuncture. At that time, kung fu was taught among Chinese and mostly in Chinese tongs and associations. Since Chinese have many festivities and cultural beliefs, the art of lion and dragon dance were taught to accommodate the celebration ritual. Many Chinese benefited from Wong's martial art lessons during the 40's and 50's when he stayed in San Francisco, Stockton and Oakland. This was the birth of Ng Ga Kin and Ng Ying Ga in the United States. In 1929, he moved to the Los Angeles area, where he taught exclusively for the Wong family the first two years. He then opened his Chinese Herb shop and Kung Fu school, called War Que (War Kyu) or Overseas Chinese Martial Arts Association. In 1931, Wong went to china to instruct the Wong family in the Martial Arts. In 1934, he returned to Los Angeles and resumed his teaching. At the young age of 31, Master Wong was given the title of Grandmaster. In 1965, Wong opened his doors to the public, to any sincere student who wanted to learn from a Master. Previously, as mentioned, all Chinese Kung Fu was taught to Chinese only, as it was kept a secret. He taught the Five Family styles of Cho Li, Fut, Mok, and Hung and the five animals of the Tiger, Dragon, Crane, Leopard and Snake. Master Wong taught Tai Chi Chuan, five element fist, natural fist and the Hop Gar Lama fist. He also taught the 18 traditional Shao Lin weapons, Lion and Dragon dancing, Chinese Acupuncture, Massage, and Herbal medicine.

[Violent Designs]

Having mucked around in a few prominent TCMA lineages and their history, I'd suggest that the real story may even be less clear and direct than the one here....

Politics at the time, in the time since and CURRENT politics,

Personal agendas, hissy fits, etc

And the general Chinese tendency to never do anything in a straight line

YES, STRAIGHT LINE FAILS. IN CHINESE SOCIETY AND HISTORY?

PROVES WHY WING CHUN THEORY ALSO FAILS... AND SELF-DEFEATING?

SPIRALS > STRAIGHT LINE

CLF WINS.

gg

[CFT]

do I have it right?

Cheung Kuen 長拳(long fist),
Ping Kuen 平拳(level fist),
Kau Da Kuen 扣打拳(holding/knocking strike fist),
Sup Ji Kuen 十字拳("+" pattern fist)

thanks again.Looks alright to me.