Looking for WSL vs fencer clip

[Eric_H]

Hello,

I recently have read that the late Wong Shueng Leung had a televised match in where he squared off with a fencer using the baat cham do. I've been unable to find this clip on the internet, does anyone have a copy of it?

Thanks,

[bennyvt]

Been looking man. It was on live and had to be stopped as WSL cut him to pieces. Funny thing was the swords were blunt but the dude hacked at them with his sabre and turned them serated. They had to stop as he was bleeding everywhere

[Buddha_Fist]

Benny,

Did you watch the footage?

B

[bennyvt]

No, way too young. Asked a few of his students about it.

[k gledhill]

I heard the same.

[Eric_H]

Dang, that's something that I'd love to see :(

[CFT]

I think I read it was on the HKTV programme "Enjoy Yourself Tonight" (歡樂今宵).

[Phil Redmond]

Been looking man. It was on live and had to be stopped as WSL cut him to pieces. Funny thing was the swords were blunt but the dude hacked at them with his sabre and turned them serated. They had to stop as he was bleeding everywhere
They say people go to car races hoping to see a crash. I hope I not on the same page as them but I'd love to see that footage of Si-Bak WSL myself. :D

[chusauli]

Sounds incredible, I don't think people in WCK would fare well against a fencer or escrimador.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Anyone know the name of the fencer?
I mean, if some recall so vividly the result then the name should be remembered also.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Been looking man. It was on live and had to be stopped as WSL cut him to pieces. Funny thing was the swords were blunt but the dude hacked at them with his sabre and turned them serated. They had to stop as he was bleeding everywhere

That is pretty strange since attacking another's blade or even hacking is NOT what any decent sabre user would do.
Matter of fact, anyone that has used a sword in any practical way knows NOT to hit and avoid as much as possible, steel on steel.

[Buddha_Fist]

That is pretty strange since attacking another's blade or even hacking is NOT what any decent sabre user would do.
Matter of fact, anyone that has used a sword in any practical way knows NOT to hit and avoid as much as possible, steel on steel.

Kinda like with the pole... Focus on the man... Or like the hands... Don't chase hands...

[chusauli]

Well, its easy...any of WSL descendants think they could do the same thing against a decent fencer or escrimador?

[shawchemical]

Well, its easy...any of WSL descendants think they could do the same thing against a decent fencer or escrimador?

Your comparison uses two dissimilar styles, making the comparison bunk.

[Buddha_Fist]

The technique/method has some weight, but that's not the end to all means. The individual matters, as well as the time & quality put into practical training. Doing BCD form is just the baby step.

I know first hand a Wong Shun Leung student who has sparred with a regional fencing champion - successfully. It's not a mystery - swift footwork and both blades working in unison. But of what use is knowing this to us? If this is something that is important for you to pursue, do it yourself. Living of hearsay and skills of others is not the thing of doers.

[Dave McKinnon]

Shaw

Martial Arts, except in more recent time has been about fighting dissimilar styles.
Can A BJD user defeat a saber or other similar sword?

Dave

[shawchemical]

Shaw

Martial Arts, except in more recent time has been about fighting dissimilar styles.
Can A BJD user defeat a saber or other similar sword?

Dave

Pointless comparison.
The competition is not with the sword, but its user.

[bennyvt]

As far as I heard it was a high ranking HK police man that was a champion. Best to ask david peterson or WKmak could ask cliff as he was still with him. From what I was told every time he would strike wong would block with one and chop/slice with the other.
Most times in sword fighting you are blocking with your swords (not talking vt as I don't know the knives. Hence needing to sharpen out the nicks. When doing medievil or even kenjitsu we were taught to block with the sword. He wasn't attacking the swords, he was trying to hit WSL but he was moving and blocking it.WSL's knives were just a training crappy pair as it was on TV and it was classed as more of an exhibition. The guy got ****ed that he couldn't get WSL so started to madly hack at him.
And Robert maybe you and your guys couldn't beat a decent fencer or escrima but we aren't all like you. Unless you are just saying that to stir **** like you always do. How old are you man. Let me guess you read this stuff and type with one hand on the ah... keyboard.:rolleyes:

[wkmark]

I can ask around in and try to get more information on this. But yes, I have heard of this before as well. It was on 歡樂今宵 and i believed that yes the BJD was not sharpened, but upon contact with the fencer more than a few times, it left the BJD serrated. One of the movement during the encounter Sifu WSL did a move that slice the fencer's arm causing it to bleed. I will ask Cliff or ask Sifu WSL's sons in regards to this event.

As for whether BJD can beat a decent fencer or Escrima, it should be based on the practitioner itself.

In WSL BJD, the forms are only part of the drill. There are also sparring usage of the BJD. Wooden BJD's are used to train for applications usage in sparring.



As far as I heard it was a high ranking HK police man that was a champion. Best to ask david peterson or WKmak could ask cliff as he was still with him. From what I was told every time he would strike wong would block with one and chop/slice with the other.
Most times in sword fighting you are blocking with your swords (not talking vt as I don't know the knives. Hence needing to sharpen out the nicks. When doing medievil or even kenjitsu we were taught to block with the sword. He wasn't attacking the swords, he was trying to hit WSL but he was moving and blocking it.WSL's knives were just a training crappy pair as it was on TV and it was classed as more of an exhibition. The guy got ****ed that he couldn't get WSL so started to madly hack at him.
And Robert maybe you and your guys couldn't beat a decent fencer or escrima but we aren't all like you. Unless you are just saying that to stir **** like you always do. How old are you man. Let me guess you read this stuff and type with one hand on the ah... keyboard.:rolleyes:

[Eric_H]

I can ask around in and try to get more information on this. But yes, I have heard of this before as well. It was on 歡樂今宵 and i believed that yes the BJD was not sharpened, but upon contact with the fencer more than a few times, it left the BJD serrated. One of the movement during the encounter Sifu WSL did a move that slice the fencer's arm causing it to bleed. I will ask Cliff or ask Sifu WSL's sons in regards to this event.



Wkmark, appreciate you asking. I think it's something all WC people would want to see. WSL was a great representative of WC.

I've heard that he also studied the Fu Chen Sung style of bagua. Is this true?

[wkmark]

FYI, I will ask for the details of the event, but I probably won't be able to get any film footage since I am not sure if that film got kept.. got erased.. etc.

As for Fu Chen Sung style Bagua, I'd have to ask as well. Hahaha.



Wkmark, appreciate you asking. I think it's something all WC people would want to see. WSL was a great representative of WC.

I've heard that he also studied the Fu Chen Sung style of bagua. Is this true?

[LSWCTN1]

Wkmark, appreciate you asking. I think it's something all WC people would want to see. WSL was a great representative of WC.

I've heard that he also studied the Fu Chen Sung style of bagua. Is this true?

think that was Chu Shong Tin? but also Kwok Wan Ping AND Garrett Gee are other notable who have done the same i believe

[sanjuro_ronin]

Most times in sword fighting you are blocking with your swords (not talking vt as I don't know the knives. Hence needing to sharpen out the nicks. When doing medievil or even kenjitsu we were taught to block with the sword.

Granted sometimes you HAVE to block with the blade but is it NEVER a first or second option, it is a last resort and even then you tyr your best to make contact with the blunt of the blade and not the edge.
On a double edges sword you make contact AWAY from the cutting area and closer to the hilt.
Evade first, parry second.
Blade on blade = damaged blades and no practical swordsmanship advocated that.
Contact happens, that is a given, but it is not looked for or desired.

[Eric_H]

Granted sometimes you HAVE to block with the blade but is it NEVER a first or second option, it is a last resort and even then you tyr your best to make contact with the blunt of the blade and not the edge.
On a double edges sword you make contact AWAY from the cutting area and closer to the hilt.
Evade first, parry second.
Blade on blade = damaged blades and no practical swordsmanship advocated that.
Contact happens, that is a given, but it is not looked for or desired.

+1

A lot of the sword bridging I've learned in the Wudang (primarily Fu Style) broadsword is about engaging with the side and back of the blade. On the rare occassion we do use the cutting edge to intercept the idea is to hack into the side of their sword, not edge to edge.

One of the things I've really appreciated about learning weaponry outside of WC is that you also have to have a good sense of forward energy to maintain control on the blade bridge and knowing how far is "a bridge too far" and will get you cut. Both concepts play perfectly into the HTH of WC.

[chusauli]

My point is if the skills are passed down, the descendants should also be able to do it.

For example, Gu Yu Cheung, master of Bak Siu Lam and Iron Palm could kill a horse with one slap. How many of his descendants can do that?

Leung Shum of Eagle Claw stated he could crush a thick teacup with his Eagle Claw. How many of his descendants can do that?

I am very admired of WSL's skill having met him personally in 1987 in HK and again in SF in '91. He was my Si Bok, and I know first hand of his ability in empty hand WCK, when I played Chi Sao with him. Hawkins also looked up to WSL's abilities. And as Hawkins always admonished me, "The theory is fantastic, but can you do it?"

Of course, we have nut-riders and name bearers of WSL here. Some put WSL up on a pedestal and almost worship him...but if we know WSL's character, it is not to worship him, but to develop your own abilities. What is your gung fu? If you take this out of context and feel insulted, then you have your own insecurites, but those who met WSL, know his mind frame. Even the movie Ip Man, played by Donnie Yen, told his Northern Fist opponent, "Its not a problem of North or South, but your problem." Can you solve it?

Here we have a story of WSL beating a Sabre Fencer - what is the gentleman's skill with the sabre? Is he trained with the sabre? Most fencers do foil, then epee, then sabre... but truly fencers prefer epee, and certainly, sabre fencers don't hack, even out of frustration. What were the rules here? I heard this story from Lam Gor (Gary Lam), but it would be more interesting to know how he did it. Real fencing is incredible - they train and compete at high levels, something that forms players cannot match. The same goes for escrima and kali, and kendo. Think you can match them? Go and try...

BJD vs. Sabre, it can be done, at the right range, and moving off line...closing off options.

IMO, 6.5 point pole would have been better matched. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

My point is if the skills are passed down, the descendants should also be able to do it.

Ah Robert, you just threw a bucket of cold water on most TMA.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

It's settled then.

Let the pony killing begin.

[chusauli]

Ah Robert, you just threw a bucket of cold water on most TMA.

Paul,

I love TMA and have been practicing over 41 years now.

But we have to get real. Many of the anecdotes are often overexaggerated. How many of Gu Yu Cheung's descendants can break brick number 16 of a 17 layer stack without spacers? How many can kill a sheep with one slap, let alone a charging horse?

Yip Man fighting 22 Japanese Black Belts in the recent movie is a joke - it never happened, yet how many believe it to be real?

WSL was great, and fought numerous street fights and tested out his art, but in an open tournament in Taiwan was carried out on a stretcher. Today's WCK people alleged learn Gaun Sao in Siu Nim Tao because of this. What - Yip Man didn't teach how to overcome a sidekick to the ribcage? How many people think that a Gaun Sao is going to stop a full power sidekick?

Cold water? We have to get real. Anyone should have the humbleness to accept and learn the truth.

There is a theory of Dunning Kruger (WCK people would do well to look this up, and my citation is from Wikipedia):

"for a given skill, incompetent people will:

1. tend to overestimate their own level of skill;
2. fail to recognize genuine skill in others;
3. fail to recognize the extremity of their inadequacy;
4. recognize and acknowledge their own previous lack of skill, if they can be trained to substantially improve.

Dunning has since drawn an analogy ("the anosognosia of everyday life")[10][1] to a condition in which a person who suffers a physical disability due to brain injury seems unaware of or denies the existence of the disability, even for dramatic impairments such as blindness or paralysis."

So sad.

[shawchemical]

Robert you are a wanker.
You try to build up your stature by running the reputation of others who are unable to defend themselves into the ground.
There is nothing more to say.

[Dave McKinnon]

Shaw

He isn't ruining anyone's reputation. He is calling for people to train hard and build their own martial legacy instead of holding on to what their Sifu's Sifu's Sifu did.

Dave

[fan]

this kendo vs escrima matchup might provide some clues:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JapMGyUbT68

[wkmark]

WSL was great, and fought numerous street fights and tested out his art, but in an open tournament in Taiwan was carried out on a stretcher. Today's WCK people alleged learn Gaun Sao in Siu Nim Tao because of this. What - Yip Man didn't teach how to overcome a sidekick to the ribcage? How many people think that a Gaun Sao is going to stop a full power sidekick?



Robert,

I was wondering, your purpose of bringing out Sifu's taiwan tournament is???

What is Gaun Sao? Did you mean Karn Sao?? If that is what you are referring to, from what I have learned from Sifu in the past, the Karn Sao was the result of his fight with some Iron Palm guy. Not from the the Sidekick. I believe he had mentioned this in one of his interview.

As for the Taiwan fight, honestly, there are many different versions of the stories. The real truth will only be known by Sifu himself. However we are or (at least I am) not putting Sifu on a pedestal especially knowing the type of person he was. He never advertised or ever admitted that he was good.. He only admitted that he was a practitioner of Ving Tsun. He fought his matches in the past and I am sure he won some and lost some. But the point was he was trying to see what worked and what didn't work for him. But it seemed that you are bringing out the Taiwan fight for a particular reason? Please do share.

I honestly don't really care if Sifu lost for whatever reason at the Taiwan fight, I only cared that Sifu was trying to see what worked and what didn't. What he showed me from his past achievement was that he was human and he was trying to make Ving Tsun work for him.

[YungChun]

lol

Robert you have some good points..

But, I think what you are seeing is that many, many Chunners are desperate to see some actual 'higher level' Chun being performed in whatever the venue.

There are shockingly few examples of higher level Chun being performed, so much so that the idea that it even exists has almost taken on a mythic quality..

While it's true that today's practitioners need to go and find their own kung-fu; it's also true that up and coming Chunners need real functional examples of higher level performance. Those examples have been, and are, sorely lacking..

[Wayfaring]

4. recognize and acknowledge their own previous lack of skill, if they can be trained to substantially improve.


And that, is always a good idea. It goes right along with your Ip Man and Hawkins quotes above.

[LoneTiger108]

Sounds incredible, I don't think people in WCK would fare well against a fencer or escrimador.

As always Chu Sifu, you're speaking of yourself here?? Definitely NOT speaking for me :D

With regards to the WSL/Fencer clip, personally I think this was just a rumour that spread from another event entirely and I will tell you why. As far as I know, and I have had the story verified by a few sources, there was a stand off between a Wing Chun pratitioner and an Olympian Fencer but it definitely wasn't televised.

The WC practitioner actually used two foils against the fencer in a playful sparring session and gained the upper hand. Impressing the fencer so much that he wondered how he could do that when he had never held or used a foil in his life.

The reply was that he had practised the BJD from Wing Chun. The practitioner was not WSL it was someone from the Lee Shing family ;)

[LoneTiger108]

While it's true that today's practitioners need to go and find their own kung-fu; it's also true that up and coming Chunners need real functional examples of higher level performance. Those examples have been, and are, sorely lacking..

Not to be all 'self promoting' and all that, but THIS was one of the reasons I sat with my Kung Fu Brother and started The Yum Yeurng Academy.

We actively search for like minded martial artists who are interested in raising their performance levels. It's something that I believe in very strongly.

If you don't see it, you aint never doing it!

We need more extreme troupes of practitioners that are willing to take their art to the public domain through events and demonstrations that actually do show this 'higher level' of our art.

Fortunately for me, I am surrounded by like minded people as the Lee Shing Family are looking at ways to do this in the UK. The ball has already started to roll after over 50 years lol! :D

[t_niehoff]

Not to be all 'self promoting' and all that, but THIS was one of the reasons I sat with my Kung Fu Brother and started The Yum Yeurng Academy.

We actively search for like minded martial artists who are interested in raising their performance levels. It's something that I believe in very strongly.

If you don't see it, you aint never doing it!

We need more extreme troupes of practitioners that are willing to take their art to the public domain through events and demonstrations that actually do show this 'higher level' of our art.

Fortunately for me, I am surrounded by like minded people as the Lee Shing Family are looking at ways to do this in the UK. The ball has already started to roll after over 50 years lol! :D

The higher levels of the art -- in fact ANY art -- can ONLY come by doing loads (we're talking minimum hundreds of hours) sparring/fighting (using your WCK) against very highly skilled people. Essentially that means training/sparring with highly skilled MT, boxers, and MMA fighters (people with proven, very good stand-up skills). Are you doing that? Because if you are not DOING that work but believe you are raising your performance levels to "high levels", then you are just kidding yourself and engaging in fantasy (which is standard in WCK).

[k gledhill]

Terence and the higher levels... lmfao :o

[LoneTiger108]

Terence and the higher levels... lmfao :o

For once I agree with you 100% :D

[LoneTiger108]

The higher levels of the art -- in fact ANY art -- can ONLY come by doing loads (we're talking minimum hundreds of hours) sparring/fighting (using your WCK) against very highly skilled people. Essentially that means training/sparring with highly skilled MT, boxers, and MMA fighters (people with proven, very good stand-up skills). Are you doing that? Because if you are not DOING that work but believe you are raising your performance levels to "high levels", then you are just kidding yourself and engaging in fantasy (which is standard in WCK).

Its funny but the ONE type of person you fail to mention here is highly skilled WCK people :rolleyes: Wake up T!! They DO exist but unfortunately they may be avoiding you :eek:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Paul,

I love TMA and have been practicing over 41 years now.

But we have to get real. Many of the anecdotes are often overexaggerated. How many of Gu Yu Cheung's descendants can break brick number 16 of a 17 layer stack without spacers? How many can kill a sheep with one slap, let alone a charging horse?

Yip Man fighting 22 Japanese Black Belts in the recent movie is a joke - it never happened, yet how many believe it to be real?

WSL was great, and fought numerous street fights and tested out his art, but in an open tournament in Taiwan was carried out on a stretcher. Today's WCK people alleged learn Gaun Sao in Siu Nim Tao because of this. What - Yip Man didn't teach how to overcome a sidekick to the ribcage? How many people think that a Gaun Sao is going to stop a full power sidekick?

Cold water? We have to get real. Anyone should have the humbleness to accept and learn the truth.

There is a theory of Dunning Kruger (WCK people would do well to look this up, and my citation is from Wikipedia):

"for a given skill, incompetent people will:

1. tend to overestimate their own level of skill;
2. fail to recognize genuine skill in others;
3. fail to recognize the extremity of their inadequacy;
4. recognize and acknowledge their own previous lack of skill, if they can be trained to substantially improve.

Dunning has since drawn an analogy ("the anosognosia of everyday life")[10][1] to a condition in which a person who suffers a physical disability due to brain injury seems unaware of or denies the existence of the disability, even for dramatic impairments such as blindness or paralysis."

So sad.

I feel your pain...

[sanjuro_ronin]

this kendo vs escrima matchup might provide some clues:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JapMGyUbT68

None whatsoever.
Sorry, sticks are NOT blades and a shinais NOT even a stick.
heck I have gone empty hand VS a shinai, no biggie.

[sanjuro_ronin]

As for the Taiwan fight, honestly, there are many different versions of the stories. The real truth will only be known by Sifu himself. However we are or (at least I am) not putting Sifu on a pedestal especially knowing the type of person he was. He never advertised or ever admitted that he was good.. He only admitted that he was a practitioner of Ving Tsun. He fought his matches in the past and I am sure he won some and lost some. But the point was he was trying to see what worked and what didn't work for him. But it seemed that you are bringing out the Taiwan fight for a particular reason? Please do share.

I honestly don't really care if Sifu lost for whatever reason at the Taiwan fight, I only cared that Sifu was trying to see what worked and what didn't. What he showed me from his past achievement was that he was human and he was trying to make Ving Tsun work for him.

I for one love the WSL philosophy of fighting and WC, I read the book and enjoyed it immensely and wish that more WC people would follow his advice and his methodologies.
That said, up until Robert mentioned the Taiwan match I had NO clue that WSL had EVER been beaten, it certainly was never mentioned that I recall.
Maybe that is why Robert mentioned it, because in the middle of all the WSL nutriding, it seems that little note was never mentioned by anyone.

Again, don't get me wrong, I never ASSUMED he was unbeaten, but his "followers" certainly give that impression.

WSL, from what I have seen and read, was an excellent MA and an excellent WC man, it seems though that many of his views never caught one as much as he may have hoped.
Primarily the view of testing your WC VS other systems and not getting ridgidly stuck in what YOU think WC should be, but realising that YOUR WC and someone elses is not and should not, be the same.

[bennyvt]

Im sure the taiwan fight has come up several times on this forum in the past. I have metioned it when talking about the garn sao (I thought that was how you spelled it?). WSL used that in several seminars that I have seen to show not only just the move but that on-one is unbeatable. He also used to use a big scar on his forehead from a knife wound to show that anyone can be beat on their day.
This wasn't about nut ridding. Someone asked if anyone had footage, most of us have said that we have heard about it but not seen it. I asked people in HK when I was there and they said the same sort of thing. And no they weren't all WSL guys.
But I think your giving Robert too much credit.;)

[t_niehoff]

Its funny but the ONE type of person you fail to mention here is highly skilled WCK people :rolleyes: Wake up T!! They DO exist but unfortunately they may be avoiding you :eek:

What's amusing -- and disturbing -- is that many of you guys talk about "higher levels of WCK" yet aren't even competent fighters. Almost no one in WCK puts in the work necessary to become a competent fighter. It takes a TON of the right kind of work just to become competent. As my training partner says, "Some people want to move directly to enlightened warrior monk stage yet can't get out of a headlock." Most of you could even hold your own against whitebelt-level MMA or MT fighters.

Where are all these "highly skilled WCK people" -- people who can fight and hold their own with high level fighters -- except in your dreams?

Here is a simple, lead pipe truth: if you are not already doing it, you won't be able to do it. Are you already sparring with and beating whitebelt level MT or MMA fighters? Because if you are not, you won't be able to do it.

[LoneTiger108]

What's amusing -- and disturbing -- is that many of you guys talk about "higher levels of WCK" yet aren't even competent fighters. Almost no one in WCK puts in the work necessary to become a competent fighter. It takes a TON of the right kind of work just to become competent. As my training partner says, "Some people want to move directly to enlightened warrior monk stage yet can't get out of a headlock." Most of you could even hold your own against whitebelt-level MMA or MT fighters.

Where are all these "highly skilled WCK people" -- people who can fight and hold their own with high level fighters -- except in your dreams?

Here we go again! :D I have to say I admire your persistence T, but fighting in a cage really has nothing to do with using the knives or pole and this is the type of 'advanced' Wing Chun people need to see imho.

If you expect a Wing Chun student to want to fight every day of their lives, or train in such a way that they can 'compete' in such a barbaric sport, then I suggest you return to your kuit that covers Mo Duk ;):rolleyes:

ANY well conditioned athlete would stand a chance in the ring and what you're constantly implying is that none of us WCK practitioners are athletes. Again, I suggest you get out more and actually 'meet' some of us :D But we all know that aint going to happen because you are in your own dream world yourself imo.

And what I really wanted to say on THIS thread is that the WCK guy that fought the fencer WAS NOT Wong Shun Leung!!??

Why not try to contribute to that??

[chusauli]

Robert,

I was wondering, your purpose of bringing out Sifu's taiwan tournament is???

What is Gaun Sao? Did you mean Karn Sao?? If that is what you are referring to, from what I have learned from Sifu in the past, the Karn Sao was the result of his fight with some Iron Palm guy. Not from the the Sidekick. I believe he had mentioned this in one of his interview.

As for the Taiwan fight, honestly, there are many different versions of the stories. The real truth will only be known by Sifu himself. However we are or (at least I am) not putting Sifu on a pedestal especially knowing the type of person he was. He never advertised or ever admitted that he was good.. He only admitted that he was a practitioner of Ving Tsun. He fought his matches in the past and I am sure he won some and lost some. But the point was he was trying to see what worked and what didn't work for him. But it seemed that you are bringing out the Taiwan fight for a particular reason? Please do share.

I honestly don't really care if Sifu lost for whatever reason at the Taiwan fight, I only cared that Sifu was trying to see what worked and what didn't. What he showed me from his past achievement was that he was human and he was trying to make Ving Tsun work for him.

WKmark,

Perhaps we heard different stories. I don't recall there being an iron palm match. I was told the Gaun (yes, "Karn" for you in Australia) was because of a sidekick to the ribcage. And the anecdote that I was told about adding Gaun Sao in Siu Nim Tao against a side kick is ridiculous.

Equally ridiculous is if people think they can learn a knife set and fight against a top fencer (and not a scrub), they'd better rethink.

My point is anecdotes often become exaggerated with each story's telling...Ku Yu Cheong, Leung Shum, many others...

I think WSL was great, and your posting confirms his character, as I know it.

Far too much nut-riding here at times. People just gotta know he was a guy working things out for himself. Nut-riding is when there is association with a famous dude and you're basking in his glory for something you can't or didn't do. Heck, some people here who don't know the knives are saying what?

I'm still waiting for the next Kyokushin dude who can snap horns off a bull, and kill one with his bare hands. :)

[CFT]

ANY well conditioned athlete would stand a chance in the ring and what you're constantly implying is that none of us WCK practitioners are athletes. Again, I suggest you get out more and actually 'meet' some of us :D But we all know that aint going to happen because you are in your own dream world yourself imo.If it was just that then there should be more WCK fighters in the ring. The statistics just don't bear out your thinking on this. Conditioning is sport specific. If you want to fight in the ring then your training needs to reflect the format of the event.


And what I really wanted to say on THIS thread is that the WCK guy that fought the fencer WAS NOT Wong Shun Leung!!??

Why not try to contribute to that??In this big wide world there may have been more than one WCK practitioner sparring with a fencer.

[chusauli]

lol

Robert you have some good points..

But, I think what you are seeing is that many, many Chunners are desperate to see some actual 'higher level' Chun being performed in whatever the venue.

There are shockingly few examples of higher level Chun being performed, so much so that the idea that it even exists has almost taken on a mythic quality..

While it's true that today's practitioners need to go and find their own kung-fu; it's also true that up and coming Chunners need real functional examples of higher level performance. Those examples have been, and are, sorely lacking..

Jim,

Why the desperation?

WCK people can train with blindfolds, have inch power, can control a person's center of gravity, trap both of their hands, tie up and trap another's legs, strike a jong with full power, use softness to control hardness, and use devastating palm and fist strikes at short distance. These are all within the realm of human possibility.

Admittedly, some people can do triple kicks in the air, shatter boards and bricks easily, and knock out with a touch.

When it starts getting ridiculous is when demos of empty force, claims of light body, and demos of martial prowess become mythical.

[CFT]

Perhaps we heard different stories. I don't recall there being an iron palm match. I was told the Gaun (yes, "Karn" for you in Australia) was because of a sidekick to the ribcage. And the anecdote that I was told about adding Gaun Sao in Siu Nim Tao against a side kick is ridiculous.I guess I've read different stories too! I read that the gaan sau was reintroduced into the SNT form because of a low blow (maybe palm strike) in a beimo match. WSL was supposed to have used jum sau in an ineffective counter.

The Taiwan match had "ended" with WSL punching his opponent out, but not before he got an opportunistic kick in. I think this might have been an anecdote related by David Peterson, but I can't be sure.

[chusauli]

As always Chu Sifu, you're speaking of yourself here?? Definitely NOT speaking for me :D

With regards to the WSL/Fencer clip, personally I think this was just a rumour that spread from another event entirely and I will tell you why. As far as I know, and I have had the story verified by a few sources, there was a stand off between a Wing Chun pratitioner and an Olympian Fencer but it definitely wasn't televised.

The WC practitioner actually used two foils against the fencer in a playful sparring session and gained the upper hand. Impressing the fencer so much that he wondered how he could do that when he had never held or used a foil in his life.

The reply was that he had practised the BJD from Wing Chun. The practitioner was not WSL it was someone from the Lee Shing family ;)

Spencer,

I'd never speak for you. :) Your tales are wonderful enough!

Which Lee Shing family person was this? Two foils vs one on an Olympic Fencer? Of course, modesty must prevent you from revealing your source! The Olympic Fencer was probably laughing! You certainly don't use a foil (a stabbing and lunging weapon) like WCK's knives (a slashing, chopping and stabbing weapon).

Did Lee Shing teach the BJD? Why did Austin Goh have to learn it from Yip Chun? His book shows him demoing Yip Chun's set...

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'm still waiting for the next Kyokushin dude who can snap horns off a bull, and kill one with his bare hands

Even we know that those things were staged, they were oxen, not Bulls, he killed them by twisting the neck, though he did bring them done with a reverse punch, the horns were pre-sawed to make the break easier, though not any less spectacular, and Oyama got badly gorged by one once.

[chusauli]

Thanks Paul,

I know it was staged, just like WSL against the fencer.

Best regards,

[t_niehoff]

Here we go again! :D I have to say I admire your persistence T, but fighting in a cage really has nothing to do with using the knives or pole and this is the type of 'advanced' Wing Chun people need to see imho.


Whether empty hand, pole or with knives, the process it takes to develop high levels of skill is the same. How do people become "high level" fencers? By spending loads of time bouting with skilled fencers.

Do you know of ANYONE who is putting in lots of sparring time with the WCK pole or WCK knives against proven, highly skilled weapon fighters, like the Dog Brothers? You see, it's all fantasy.



If you expect a Wing Chun student to want to fight every day of their lives, or train in such a way that they can 'compete' in such a barbaric sport, then I suggest you return to your kuit that covers Mo Duk ;):rolleyes:


It has nothing to do with what I expect. If a person wants to develop "high level" BJJ -- whether for self-defense, sport BJJ, sub wrestling, or MMA -- then they are going to need to put in thousands of hours rolling with skilled grapplers. There is absolutely no other way to develop skill than by doing that. There is no high level grappler that hasn't. And it is the same for boxing or wrestling or WCK.



ANY well conditioned athlete would stand a chance in the ring and what you're constantly implying is that none of us WCK practitioners are athletes. Again, I suggest you get out more and actually 'meet' some of us :D But we all know that aint going to happen because you are in your own dream world yourself imo.


Are YOU going to MMA or MT schools and sparring with them? No.

Going back to my lead pipe truth: if you aren't already doing it, you won't be able to do it.

So, if you aren't already sparring with and beating white-belt level MMA fighters, you won't be able to. It IS that simple.



And what I really wanted to say on THIS thread is that the WCK guy that fought the fencer WAS NOT Wong Shun Leung!!??

Why not try to contribute to that??

Because all that stuff is fantasy nonsense.

[YungChun]

Jim,

Why the desperation?

WCK people can train with blindfolds, have inch power, can control a person's center of gravity, trap both of their hands, tie up and trap another's legs, strike a jong with full power, use softness to control hardness, and use devastating palm and fist strikes at short distance. These are all within the realm of human possibility.


They can?

Where are all or any examples of higher level Chun being applied (in fighting) clearly showing some of the things you mention?

Why the desperation? Because examples are so hard to find...and I have heard this from many Chunners of many levels.

[bennyvt]

"I was told the Gaun (yes, "Karn" for you in Australia) was because of a sidekick to the ribcage."

Keep up man he is in hong kong and said karn I thought it was spelled garn but who really cares. and the story on the video that he tells it was just near his groin. And yes he did step back in and knock him out. He was taken out of the ring in a stretcher.

"Far too much nut-riding here at times. People just gotta know he was a guy working things out for himself. Nut-riding is when there is association with a famous dude and you're basking in his glory for something you can't or didn't do. Heck, some people here who don't know the knives are saying what?"

Ive never used WSL in promoting myself, I am from a Barry Lee school and thats enough for me. Im pretty sure you have used his name in promoting yourself and name drop him in topics so is that what you mean by nut ridding. This all came from someone asking if anyone had footage. The WSl guys said they had heard it but not seen the footage. Then you question whether any VT person could do it. Either through your own insecurities or knowledge that you couldn't it must be that it didn't happen. Then you say you heard that from gary Lam, so he is a liar then I guess. Then you try to make out that you know the secrets to how to beat a real fencer.
I never said that I know it as a fact. That would be as stupid as reading something off a white board, not asking what it is and making up my own crap to sell articles in a magazine. We were always told that just cause he could do it doesn't mean you can. Its about doing the hours in training, against anyone you can to learn how to use VT. Its not about going to fifty different guys and never really training just to be able to have their names on your CV. Many people think they can skip the hard training if they learn that certain secret to "real VT". The secret in our school is "TRAIN" just keep it between us.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Here we go again! I have to say I admire your persistence T, but fighting in a cage really has nothing to do with using the knives or pole and this is the type of 'advanced' Wing Chun people need to see imho.

If you expect a Wing Chun student to want to fight every day of their lives, or train in such a way that they can 'compete' in such a barbaric sport, then I suggest you return to your kuit that covers Mo Duk." (Lone Tiger)
............................

****NEVER cease to be amazed at how much COMPLETE BULL5HIT you guys allow Terence Niehoff to get away with.

Do you really think for one second that this guy even does one-tenth of what he tells everybody else THEY should do? :confused: :eek: :D

He's NEVER posted anything to confirm that he has. Not one single vid of Terence Niehoff doing ANYTHING. Ever. Won't show up anywhere. The one time he did (Garrett Gee's Friendship seminar) - he refused to touch hands with anyone. In more recent years people want to come and see him (or meet him somewhere) - and the answer always manages to be "NO".

But not without first posturing a "YES".

And you're taking his word for it? That he's been training this, training that. Sparring regularly with these guys....rolling regularly with those guys? You know, well-skilled mma guys, MT guys, boxers, bjj players: you know, all top shelf stuff.

From someone who said that the chief weapon of his primary art (wing chun) is elbow strikes....and that tan sao can be used to get out of a Thai plum neck tie? :eek::rolleyes::cool::)

Wake up, kungfumagazine wing chun forum.

You're being played.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"i was told the gaun (yes, "karn" for you in australia) was because of a sidekick to the ribcage."

keep up man he is in hong kong and said karn i thought it was spelled garn but who really cares. And the story on the video that he tells it was just near his groin. And yes he did step back in and knock him out. He was taken out of the ring in a stretcher.

"far too much nut-riding here at times. People just gotta know he was a guy working things out for himself. Nut-riding is when there is association with a famous dude and you're basking in his glory for something you can't or didn't do. Heck, some people here who don't know the knives are saying what?"

ive never used wsl in promoting myself, i am from a barry lee school and thats enough for me. Im pretty sure you have used his name in promoting yourself and name drop him in topics so is that what you mean by nut ridding. This all came from someone asking if anyone had footage. The wsl guys said they had heard it but not seen the footage. Then you question whether any vt person could do it. Either through your own insecurities or knowledge that you couldn't it must be that it didn't happen. Then you say you heard that from gary lam, so he is a liar then i guess. Then you try to make out that you know the secrets to how to beat a real fencer.
I never said that i know it as a fact. That would be as stupid as reading something off a white board, not asking what it is and making up my own crap to sell articles in a magazine. We were always told that just cause he could do it doesn't mean you can. Its about doing the hours in training, against anyone you can to learn how to use vt. Its not about going to fifty different guys and never really training just to be able to have their names on your cv. Many people think they can skip the hard training if they learn that certain secret to "real vt". The secret in our school is "train" just keep it between us.

***this...

[shawchemical]

"I was told the Gaun (yes, "Karn" for you in Australia) was because of a sidekick to the ribcage."

Keep up man he is in hong kong and said karn I thought it was spelled garn but who really cares. and the story on the video that he tells it was just near his groin. And yes he did step back in and knock him out. He was taken out of the ring in a stretcher.

"Far too much nut-riding here at times. People just gotta know he was a guy working things out for himself. Nut-riding is when there is association with a famous dude and you're basking in his glory for something you can't or didn't do. Heck, some people here who don't know the knives are saying what?"

Ive never used WSL in promoting myself, I am from a Barry Lee school and thats enough for me. Im pretty sure you have used his name in promoting yourself and name drop him in topics so is that what you mean by nut ridding. This all came from someone asking if anyone had footage. The WSl guys said they had heard it but not seen the footage. Then you question whether any VT person could do it. Either through your own insecurities or knowledge that you couldn't it must be that it didn't happen. Then you say you heard that from gary Lam, so he is a liar then I guess. Then you try to make out that you know the secrets to how to beat a real fencer.
I never said that I know it as a fact. That would be as stupid as reading something off a white board, not asking what it is and making up my own crap to sell articles in a magazine. We were always told that just cause he could do it doesn't mean you can. Its about doing the hours in training, against anyone you can to learn how to use VT. Its not about going to fifty different guys and never really training just to be able to have their names on your CV. Many people think they can skip the hard training if they learn that certain secret to "real VT". The secret in our school is "TRAIN" just keep it between us.

Exactly.

The only secret is sweat , blood and tears in training, consistently.

[LoneTiger108]

Spencer,

I'd never speak for you. :) Your tales are wonderful enough!

Which Lee Shing family person was this? Two foils vs one on an Olympic Fencer? Of course, modesty must prevent you from revealing your source! The Olympic Fencer was probably laughing! You certainly don't use a foil (a stabbing and lunging weapon) like WCK's knives (a slashing, chopping and stabbing weapon).

Did Lee Shing teach the BJD? Why did Austin Goh have to learn it from Yip Chun? His book shows him demoing Yip Chun's set...

Your dig is quite fantastic, yet again, but shows serious lack of knowledge about Lee Shing and what he knew, yet again. :rolleyes: Maybe as you're the 'man in the know' you can ask my Uncle why he learnt BJD from Ip Chun? If he did at all.

The simple answer is, yes, Lee Shing did teach the BJD. But not as you know it. ;)


Whether empty hand, pole or with knives, the process it takes to develop high levels of skill is the same. How do people become "high level" fencers? By spending loads of time bouting with skilled fencers.

You take the words out of my mouth. High level knife men practise with the like. Which is why you aint at a high level sir! :p


Do you know of ANYONE who is putting in lots of sparring time with the WCK pole or WCK knives against proven, highly skilled weapon fighters, like the Dog Brothers? You see, it's all fantasy.

Dog brothers!?? Sparring with 'knives'?? Who's in the fantasy world now??

The ART of Wing Chun needs no explanation in this silly haven you're trying to create for yourself. You carry on training the way you talk of and post a few clips so we can see what it's all about. :eek: Go on. Just ONE! ;)

[LoneTiger108]

Exactly.

The only secret is sweat , blood and tears in training, consistently.

Best post here!

But unfortunately many have no idea what you mean. No kung fu is needed to post here it seems :rolleyes:

[wkmark]

WKmark,

Perhaps we heard different stories. I don't recall there being an iron palm match. I was told the Gaun (yes, "Karn" for you in Australia) was because of a sidekick to the ribcage. And the anecdote that I was told about adding Gaun Sao in Siu Nim Tao against a side kick is ridiculous.

Equally ridiculous is if people think they can learn a knife set and fight against a top fencer (and not a scrub), they'd better rethink.



Robert,

Just FYI, the Karn/Garn or however you spell it was from the Iron Palm Match. Not from the sidekick. I double checked (just to be sure) the video interview of Sifu explaining Siu Nim Tao and as we he was going thru it, he mentioned the Karn/Garn Sao and told the reason for it was from the Iron Palm Match he had. (The interview was in 1996 before he passed away. It was in Cantonese but there was a translator on spot) It was held in Hong Kong at the V.T. Athletic Center. I am mentioning it just so that there is no confusion on this.

And also FYI, I am not in Australia.... I actually have never even BEEN to Australia. I have met various people from the WSL Lineage that lives in Australia. I am currently in Hong Kong.

And back to the topic, I think the OP was just wondering if anyone had a footage of the event. That's all. =)

Regards,

[t_niehoff]

Your dig is quite fantastic, yet again, but shows serious lack of knowledge about Lee Shing and what he knew, yet again. :rolleyes: Maybe as you're the 'man in the know' you can ask my Uncle why he learnt BJD from Ip Chun? If he did at all.


I don't care what Lee Shing KNEW. It's not what you KNOW that is important. It is what you can DO that is important.

The BJD is a FORM. I KNOW about half a dozen BJD forms. So what? Knowing a form doesn't mean squat.



The simple answer is, yes, Lee Shing did teach the BJD. But not as you know it. ;)


Maybe, maybe not. But this is like saying Lee Shing did not teach riding the bike as you know it. Who gives a f#ck?



You take the words out of my mouth. High level knife men practise with the like. Which is why you aint at a high level sir! :p


There are not "high level knife men". They are high level fantasy guys PLAYING "knife expert."



Dog brothers!?? Sparring with 'knives'?? Who's in the fantasy world now??


Great, you appreciate that NO ONE can spar (practice fighting) with real knives. And since they can't really practice fighting with knives, they can't develop skill fighting with knives.

But my reference to the DBs was for things like the pole.



The ART of Wing Chun needs no explanation in this silly haven you're trying to create for yourself. You carry on training the way you talk of and post a few clips so we can see what it's all about. :eek: Go on. Just ONE! ;)

Seeing me do it wouldn't help you. Seeing videos of anyone won't help you. The only thing that possibly can help you you'll never do.

[punchdrunk]

kinda funny that R. Chu would insult your lineage for its knife form... does he have secret training methods learned from any of his seminars or private lessons he had with his multitude of teachers? Or could he and Terrence be a couple of form collectors that don't practice what they preach? Do you think they spar with their weapons? No they do more important things like chatting on forums daily!
Mistakes of the past are best not repeated, like insulting seniors knowledge and experience of the BJD, or we end up with the BS of "profound respect for..."

[LoneTiger108]

kinda funny that R. Chu would insult your lineage for its knife form...

I'm actually getting used to the insults, whether they're meant seriously or not! :cool:


I don't care what Lee Shing KNEW. It's not what you KNOW that is important. It is what you can DO that is important.

The BJD is a FORM. I KNOW about half a dozen BJD forms. So what? Knowing a form doesn't mean squat.

Interesting comment. So, on reflection, your kuit you keep promoting means NOTHING.

And by admitting you KNOW so many BJD forms shows me that you actually know NOTHING. How much did they all cost you to learn??


There are not "high level knife men". They are high level fantasy guys PLAYING "knife expert."

:rolleyes: And we should all take your word on that one?

As for the Dog Brothers doing Lee Shing pole? I really don't think so. They're double stick and knife men as far as I know. And they're pretty good at that too!


Seeing me do it wouldn't help you.

Ah! :D Something I can agree with you on 100% :D:p

[t_niehoff]

kinda funny that R. Chu would insult your lineage for its knife form... does he have secret training methods learned from any of his seminars or private lessons he had with his multitude of teachers?


When you actually look at the various weapon forms across lineages, even within the Yip Man group, it is very revealing.



Or could he and Terrence be a couple of form collectors that don't practice what they preach?


It's not a matter of being "form collectors" but that there is much truth to be found in comparing and contrasting what various people are teaching.



Do you think they spar with their weapons?


I have. But quite honestly, developing skill fighting with knives and the pole isn't my focus.



No they do more important things like chatting on forums daily!


Is chatting on a forum and skill/practicing mutually exclusive?



Mistakes of the past are best not repeated, like insulting seniors knowledge and experience of the BJD, or we end up with the BS of "profound respect for..."

Just because someone is a "senior" doesn't mean they have more "knowledge and experience" or that they are better skilled. Hoc Mo Mo Gong Sien Hou, Tat Jie Wai Sien - Don't speak of who is senior or junior. The one who attains the skill first is the senior.

[t_niehoff]

Interesting comment. So, on reflection, your kuit you keep promoting means NOTHING.


Knowing the kuit, like knowing a form or a technique, isn't IN ITSELF, important. What is important is whether or not you can DO it.



And by admitting you KNOW so many BJD forms shows me that you actually know NOTHING. How much did they all cost you to learn??


They are all just variations on the same theme.



:rolleyes: And we should all take your word on that one?


It's not a matter of taking anyone's word for it -- it is a matter of understanding what anyone needs to do to develop competent skill, whether empty hand or with weapons. We only develop fighting skill from fighting. As you indicated, people can't really fight with knives. So it follows they can't develop significant skills. And I doubt they are fighting with poles either.



As for the Dog Brothers doing Lee Shing pole? I really don't think so. They're double stick and knife men as far as I know. And they're pretty good at that too!


I'm saying that if you want to get good at the pole, then you need to do what the Dog Brothers do -- that is, get out and do lots and lots of pole fighting.

[Knifefighter]

Dog brothers!?? Sparring with 'knives'?? Who's in the fantasy world now??

Simple... use an unsharpened steel blade or a shock knife. Wear no protection except for the eyes. You'll get a real close approximation of what going with live blades is like.

The fantasy guys are the guys who think getting cut with a knife means that it is over and don't spar full contact with blades.

[Knifefighter]

As for the Dog Brothers doing Lee Shing pole? I really don't think so. They're double stick and knife men as far as I know. And they're pretty good at that too!

Several of us are also staff fighters.

[t_niehoff]

Simple... use an unsharpened steel blade or a shock knife. Wear no protection except for the eyes. You'll get a real close approximation of what going with live blades is like.

The fantasy guys are the guys who think getting cut with a knife means that it is over and don't spar full contact with blades.

Dale, what is your opinion on these guys?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oam4lKRmFus&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spG1ENQHwzk

[chusauli]

Your dig is quite fantastic, yet again, but shows serious lack of knowledge about Lee Shing and what he knew, yet again. :rolleyes: Maybe as you're the 'man in the know' you can ask my Uncle why he learnt BJD from Ip Chun? If he did at all.

The simple answer is, yes, Lee Shing did teach the BJD. But not as you know it. ;)


Spencer,

All claims of using two foils to defeat an Olympic Fencer with one aside, is this the BJD form it as you know it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grQu7wWIhNw

Looks like Yip Chun's form to me. Is it the same as yours? If so, why the descrepancy?

He even wrote a book on it published by Paladin Press where he credits Yip Chun for the set.

http://www.wcarchive.com/images/books/a-c/austin-goh-butterfly-swords-2.jpg

[t_niehoff]

Spencer,

All claims of using two foils to defeat an Olympic Fencer with one aside, is this the BJD form it as you know it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grQu7wWIhNw

Looks like Yip Chun's form to me. Is it the same as yours? If so, why the descrepancy?

He even wrote a book on it published by Paladin Press where he credits Yip Chun for the set.

http://www.wcarchive.com/images/books/a-c/austin-goh-butterfly-swords-2.jpg

To be more precise, it looks like a poorly performed Yip Chun form -- the movement was poorly executed.

[chusauli]

Robert,

Just FYI, the Karn/Garn or however you spell it was from the Iron Palm Match. Not from the sidekick. I double checked (just to be sure) the video interview of Sifu explaining Siu Nim Tao and as we he was going thru it, he mentioned the Karn/Garn Sao and told the reason for it was from the Iron Palm Match he had. (The interview was in 1996 before he passed away. It was in Cantonese but there was a translator on spot) It was held in Hong Kong at the V.T. Athletic Center. I am mentioning it just so that there is no confusion on this.

And also FYI, I am not in Australia.... I actually have never even BEEN to Australia. I have met various people from the WSL Lineage that lives in Australia. I am currently in Hong Kong.

And back to the topic, I think the OP was just wondering if anyone had a footage of the event. That's all. =)

Regards,

WKMark,

Many thanks for your reply, you've certainly shed light on this story.

Many people say different stories, hence events may be mixed up:

http://books.google.com/books?id=39YDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA43&lpg=PA43&dq=wong+shun+leung+Siu+lim+tau+low+block&source=bl&ots=UssbrrFUP0&sig=zd3q76O29SZy8x4vZLITnMMKuJY&hl=en&ei=J1CSTNbvBJT2swPSs4TBCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

I appreciate your time.

Best regards,

[sanjuro_ronin]

Simple... use an unsharpened steel blade or a shock knife. Wear no protection except for the eyes. You'll get a real close approximation of what going with live blades is like.

The fantasy guys are the guys who think getting cut with a knife means that it is over and don't spar full contact with blades.

An FYI to some of you, shock knives hurt and they give you real feedback, grante dit is not getting 6" of steel in your gut, but the feed back is there.
Dull aluminum knives really freaking hurt !

[chusauli]

Aluminum and unsharpened steel blades can still kill or injure you.

Even a 1 inch semi pointy shiv can penetrate you 4-6 inches due to the elasticity of the tissues.

[chusauli]

kinda funny that R. Chu would insult your lineage for its knife form... does he have secret training methods learned from any of his seminars or private lessons he had with his multitude of teachers? Or could he and Terrence be a couple of form collectors that don't practice what they preach? Do you think they spar with their weapons? No they do more important things like chatting on forums daily!
Mistakes of the past are best not repeated, like insulting seniors knowledge and experience of the BJD, or we end up with the BS of "profound respect for..."

No lineage insult. That's from your own reading.

And as far as BJD, I certainly know the sets, and have sparred with them as well as well as worked on the applications. I have even worked as an apprentice chef to know how to cleave, chop, peel, and slice. And I know my anatomy to know where to use them most effectively, and crossed trained in escrima.

What have you done?

[punchdrunk]

doesn't sound like you've done anything different from most... maybe you have no right to insult other lineages by insinuating they didn't learn the form?
I apologize to everyone on this topic I didn't mean to get it further derailed, any video footage of WSL is a gift in my eyes.

[shawchemical]

doesn't sound like you've done anything different from most... maybe you have no right to insult other lineages by insinuating they didn't learn the form?
I apologize to everyone on this topic I didn't mean to get it further derailed, any video footage of WSL is a gift in my eyes.

He's done less than most, not just the same.

[k gledhill]

one thing T wrote i agree with...

"Just because someone is a "senior" doesn't mean they have more "knowledge and experience" or that they are better skilled. Hoc Mo Mo Gong Sien Hou, Tat Jie Wai Sien - Don't speak of who is senior or junior. The one who attains the skill first is the senior."

talk is cheap actions in your face speak volumes without a word being passed between 2 people.

I have met many similar to me, higher ranked sifu's, etc...masters of almightyness..'name' sifu...


go visit Philipp Bayer...;) what WSL explained to him and developed in him is incredible.

[Knifefighter]

Dale, what is your opinion on these guys?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oam4lKRmFus&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spG1ENQHwzk

They are on the right track, although they need to incorporate ground fighting because that's often where it will end up.

With the approach they are using, in about 6 months time they will all be 10x better than someone who sits around practicing butterfly knife sets.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grQu7wWIhNw

[shawchemical]

They are on the right track, although they need to incorporate ground fighting because that's often where it will end up.

With the approach they are using, in about 6 months time they will all be 10x better than someone who sits around practicing butterfly knife sets.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grQu7wWIhNw

Nope, those guys are horrible. Utterly atrocious woudl be a more apt description. Tit for tat, and blocking blades with hands can't ever be a good tech...

The instructor at least looks slightly capable though, assuming he's the bald guy in black only shown for a moment at 1.40.

[k gledhill]

A.Goh doing a ' ? ' set its not VT as I know it :D

[Faruq]

Nope, those guys are horrible. Utterly atrocious woudl be a more apt description. Tit for tat, and blocking blades with hands can't ever be a good tech...

The instructor at least looks slightly capable though, assuming he's the bald guy in black only shown for a moment.

Those are probably Masad techniques. I wouldn't mess with those guys, bro!

[Knifefighter]

Nope, those guys are horrible. Utterly atrocious woudl be a more apt description. Tit for tat, and blocking blades with hands can't ever be a good tech...

The instructor at least looks slightly capable though, assuming he's the bald guy in black only shown for a moment.

LOL... you are completely clueless as usual.

[shawchemical]

LOL... you are completely clueless as usual.

At least that means I'm in possession of more of a clue than you......

[Knifefighter]

At least that means I'm in possession of more of a clue than you......

So go ahead and enlighten us on how you think it should be done.

[shawchemical]

So go ahead and enlighten us on how you think it should be done.

Tit for tat bull**** is a terrible way to train for bladed combat. Just like point sparring is terrible for standup. The problem with blades though is that both fighters are potentially dead if you train like this. It instills bad habits.

Like I said, the guy who looks like he knows what he's doing is shown only for a little in the clip. He CUTS and slices in preference to stabs.

Sure, they're training hard, but they're training bad technique to accept a cut in return for getting one themselves. Some of the worst stuff is around 1.20, 2.30, 2.49,and 3.57

The guy that features most int he clip manages a blade into himself before retaliating at least 5 times throughout the course of the vid. Allows his opponents blade to rest near his neck, blah blah.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There is a consistency across the board from those that have actually been in a knife fight or even done realistic sparring with "knives" and you can see this in the STAB, REDZONE and DBMA videos.
I suggest anyone truly interested in knife work to get them.

[Knifefighter]

Tit for tat bull**** is a terrible way to train for bladed combat. Just like point sparring is terrible for standup. The problem with blades though is that both fighters are potentially dead if you train like this. It instills bad habits.

Like I said, the guy who looks like he knows what he's doing is shown only for a little in the clip. He CUTS and slices in preference to stabs.

Sure, they're training hard, but they're training bad technique to accept a cut in return for getting one themselves. Some of the worst stuff is around 1.20, 2.30, 2.49,and 3.57

The guy that features most int he clip manages a blade into himself before retaliating at least 5 times throughout the course of the vid. Allows his opponents blade to rest near his neck, blah blah.

Cut and slice means the someone DOESN'T know what he is doing.

This is realistic as to how to train for the specificity of knives.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0fPL4f3Eqc

[hunt1]

Knifefighter a question for you. I see a great deal in this last link you posted and in every other dog brothers tape I have seen that is straight wing chun at least the wing chun I was taught. I always had the impression you were just out right negative on wing chun. Is your issue with wing chun itself or in the way it is taught and practiced?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Dale,

On your last post, is that dog/suarez vid part of one dvd - or a conglomerate of several separate dvds?

Or perhaps part of one specific set of dvds?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Dale,

On your last post, is that dog/suarez vid part of one dvd - or a conglomerate of several separate dvds?

Or perhaps part of one specific set of dvds?

It's the Die less often DVD series from the Dog Brothers, one of the best on the market.

[Knifefighter]

Knifefighter a question for you. I see a great deal in this last link you posted and in every other dog brothers tape I have seen that is straight wing chun at least the wing chun I was taught. I always had the impression you were just out right negative on wing chun. Is your issue with wing chun itself or in the way it is taught and practiced?

In what part of that are you seeing WC?

[sanjuro_ronin]

In what part of that are you seeing WC?

He MAY be referring to the "dog catcher", maybe.

[YungChun]

He MAY be referring to the "dog catcher", maybe.

Most of the interesting parts appeared to be pixelated out making it hard to tell what they were doing.

[shawchemical]

Cut and slice means the someone DOESN'T know what he is doing.

This is realistic as to how to train for the specificity of knives.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0fPL4f3Eqc

Funny, even the guy who posted that video on youtube agrees that the slice and cut is the preferential option.

You're a ****ing idiot Dale. A true and unique specimen of stupidity.

Just about every edged weapon combat training uses a cut as a primary option. Once you have disabled the man with a cut to a critical target, ie major structural tendons/muscles they are at your mercy. Sure stabs are a necessary evil and maybe a last option finisher, but if you think that that is the better option, you're sorely misguided.

And the big question should be WHY is the cut and slice better? Because your blade is always free and moving, and thus harder to predict and intercept.

Even stabbing weapons like rapiers use cut THEN thrust.

Every time you open your mouth, you just succeed in making yourself appear dumber than T.

Here are some simple explanations of what you clearly miss.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkRjtJKSJ5A&p=C424BE84BC76E772&playnext=1&index=24

[wkmark]

Hello,

I recently have read that the late Wong Shueng Leung had a televised match in where he squared off with a fencer using the baat cham do. I've been unable to find this clip on the internet, does anyone have a copy of it?

Thanks,

Eric,

I have checked with my Sihing Cliff in regards to Sifu's Fencing/BJD event and here are the details as explained to him by Sifu back in the days:

The event happened roughly around the 1970's. During that time one of the TV channels in Hong Kong was promoting some Kung Fu TV series. The name of the TV channel was 佳藝電視 (the TV channel folded in 1978... was sold to another TV company). Anyways, since they were promoting TV series, they wanted to an exhibition coverage of some martial arts. So they got Sifu WSL and a Police officer (not sure whether he was a foreigner or Asian guy.. but i am guessing foreigner since back then HK was under British Rule) who was a top ranking fencer to do some light sparring on Television.

So before the show started Sifu WSL and the fencer was just light sparring, being friendly to each other just to measure the distance and all. After a while, the fencer said that since sifu WSL was using the 2 BJD, thus it was not fair for him as he was only using 1 weapon. So it was suggested that he use 2 weapons as well. The fencer used a long Foil/ sabre or Epee as well as a Short foil/ sabre or Epee. (Sifu didn't know the name nor the difference in the equipment used for fencing) So they went at is a bit more both using 2 weapons. After a while the BJD that Sifu was using was being serrated from the various nicks and contacts with the Fencer's weapon. Sifu was using moves to block as well as slices to get in close to the Fencer. When the show went live, Sifu and the Fencer went at it but because the BJD was serrated by now, when Sifu moved in to for the slice, the BJD sliced the Fencer's forearms more than once causing it to bleed.

The show probably ended when the fencer's arm start bleeding heavily. This was on film and Cliff Sihing had went around to the public libraries trying to locate this film. However 30 years has passed and 佳藝電視 have been brought, thus the film may exist but in storage somewhere.

So this is the story in regards to Sifu WSL and the Fencer. The moves that Sifu did to get in close to the fencer.. you all would have to come to HK to ask Cliff sihing to show you as he got the first hand information from Sifu. As for my previous comment about the show being on 歡樂今宵 was wrong then. (I misunderstood or misheard the information earlier)

Anyways, the above information was what Cliff Sihing told me. If there are any difference btwn what I had mentioned above to what you may have heard from Cliff himself, please use his version as a more accurate recount of the story.

Regards,

[Knifefighter]

Funny, even the guy who posted that video on youtube agrees that the slice and cut is the preferential option.

You're a ****ing idiot Dale. A true and unique specimen of stupidity.

Just about every edged weapon combat training uses a cut as a primary option. Once you have disabled the man with a cut to a critical target, ie major structural tendons/muscles they are at your mercy. Sure stabs are a necessary evil and maybe a last option finisher, but if you think that that is the better option, you're sorely misguided.

And the big question should be WHY is the cut and slice better? Because your blade is always free and moving, and thus harder to predict and intercept.

Even stabbing weapons like rapiers use cut THEN thrust.

Every time you open your mouth, you just succeed in making yourself appear dumber than T.

Here are some simple explanations of what you clearly miss.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkRjtJKSJ5A&p=C424BE84BC76E772&playnext=1&index=24


Speaking of complete and utter idiots, that would be the little fantasy non-fighter (you) thinking that swords and knife fighting are going to follow the same tactics.

Get a clue, dumba$$.

Watch any real-life knife encounter and you will see that slicing is pretty much not even in the equation.

[Sihing73]

Speaking of complete and utter idiots, that would be the little fantasy non-fighter (you) thinking that swords and knife fighting are going to follow the same tactics.

Get a clue, dumba$$.

Watch any real-life knife encounter and you will see that slicing is pretty much not even in the equation.

Dale,

I realize I am not a "gym fighter" and therefore my experience is doubtless tainted.

However, based on my experience, on the street, I would say you are wrong and that slashes are a part of many knife fights. Now, if I were in prison than the tactics would most likely change to multiple thrusts or stabbs, but that is another matter and due to the weapons most likely to be encountered.

Now, while I do not have videos, I do have several scars from real life encounters. While I do have a few from thrusts or stabs, the majority are from being slashes.

Of course those who cut me were probably scrubs so I guess it won't count in your eye :rolleyes:

Tell the rest of us just how many real life encounters you have had where someone was trying to hurt or kill you with a knife. Also, how many scars do you have from knife/edged weapon encounters?

Of do you base your statements on the same level of your knowledge of Wing Chun? No real experience to speak of and no real understanding :D

Oh, you are correct in that swords and knives will use different tactics, I guess watching those old movies helped in that regard ;)

[Knifefighter]

Dale,

I realize I am not a "gym fighter" and therefore my experience is doubtless tainted.

However, based on my experience, on the street, I would say you are wrong and that slashes are a part of many knife fights. Now, if I were in prison than the tactics would most likely change to multiple thrusts or stabbs, but that is another matter and due to the weapons most likely to be encountered.

Now, while I do not have videos, I do have several scars from real life encounters. While I do have a few from thrusts or stabs, the majority are from being slashes.

Of course those who cut me were probably scrubs so I guess it won't count in your eye :rolleyes:

Tell the rest of us just how many real life encounters you have had where someone was trying to hurt or kill you with a knife. Also, how many scars do you have from knife/edged weapon encounters?

Of do you base your statements on the same level of your knowledge of Wing Chun? No real experience to speak of and no real understanding :D

Oh, you are correct in that swords and knives will use different tactics, I guess watching those old movies helped in that regard ;)

I've had edged weapon encounters starting from the age of 13 when I first got stabbed with a broken bottle. I developed an interest in blades from then on and have spent time with quite a few people who have made the knife their primary weapon in real fights, so I've also been witness to many bladed encounters.

I have a scar on the inside of my arm that runs from my biceps down into my forearm that wouldn't be there if my opponent had tried to slash me instead of stabbing. Believe me, I know the difference between what happens when you get slashed vs. stabbed.

I guarantee you, people who make "slashing" their primary objective are clueless when it comes to what really works.

The old "slash and slice them, cut their tendons and wait till they bleed out" is a fake bill of goods that was sold to a whole generation of martial arts wannabe "knife fighters".

[Knifefighter]

Now, while I do not have videos, I do have several scars from real life encounters. While I do have a few from thrusts or stabs, the majority are from being slashes.

And that's part of the reason you are still alive.

[Ultimatewingchun]

wkmark,

I believe that the account of what happened with the fencer as given in your last post to be credible.

WSL was never known as one who made up stories.

And LOL to other current chunners who would like to take this apart and say that it probably didn't happen.

There's a whole lot of "if i can't do this or that with my wing chun then no one can" going on around here - and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out who these people are I'm talking about.

[Knifefighter]

wkmark,

I believe that the account of what happened with the fencer as given in your last post to be credible.

WSL was never known as one who made up stories.

And LOL to other current chunners who would like to take this apart and say that it probably didn't happen.

LOL... how many people who have posted on this thread have any background in fencing? None? Yeah, that's what I thought.

For those of you that believe that story, here's an experiment for you. Head down to your local fencing center and get together with one of the competitive fencers who is opening to trying this with you:

Gear up and see if you can even come close to touching him before he lands several kill shots on you. You will find that you never have a chance.

I guarantee you this encounter never happened the way it is being portrayed. It would be like a local recreational 10K runner entering the Olympics and winning the marathon.

[Ultimatewingchun]

It's the Die less often DVD series from the Dog Brothers, one of the best on the market.

***Thanks, Paul...

[Knifefighter]

There's a whole lot of "if i can't do this or that with my wing chun then no one can" going on around here - and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out who these people are I'm talking about.

How do you think a guy had next to no experience in competitive grappling would do against an Olympic wrestler or national level submission grappler in a grappling match?

Same principle.

[punchdrunk]

I have an idea... But I've never seen the clip nor had experience fencing. To start with I am not slighting the skills of either WSL or the fencer. However notice how a grappler has a definite advantage in a light or non-contact demo against a boxer.. without hard hits he can ignore strikes take down his opponent and..surprise!! the striker looks totally useless. Against a fencer if he landed the first blow but you ignored it and closed in tight with BJD to many viewers the fencer would look the fool and he might start using his foil in funny ways (swiping it) to try and make distance.
Of course that is pure conjecture and no way reflects what happened, just one possible explanation with no evidence.

[chusauli]

An Olympic fencer would not be swiping his sword around like a fool.

[Knifefighter]

I have an idea... But I've never seen the clip nor had experience fencing. To start with I am not slighting the skills of either WSL or the fencer. However notice how a grappler has a definite advantage in a light or non-contact demo against a boxer.. without hard hits he can ignore strikes take down his opponent and..surprise!! the striker looks totally useless. Against a fencer if he landed the first blow but you ignored it and closed in tight with BJD to many viewers the fencer would look the fool and he might start using his foil in funny ways (swiping it) to try and make distance.
Of course that is pure conjecture and no way reflects what happened, just one possible explanation with no evidence.

LOL... you must have missed all the early UFC's, not to mention the recent fight of Randy Couture vs. James Toney, not to mention all the hundreds of early clips of standup guys getting schooled by grapplers.

[taai gihk yahn]

LOL... how many people who have posted on this thread have any background in fencing? None? Yeah, that's what I thought.

For those of you that believe that story, here's an experiment for you. Head down to your local fencing center and get together with one of the competitive fencers who is opening to trying this with you:

Gear up and see if you can even come close to touching him before he lands several kill shots on you. You will find that you never have a chance.

When I was in High School, I studied saber w a gentleman by the name of Laszlo Pongo (who was a good friend of my father from back in the "old country"):

National Sabre Champion, Hungary (1948): US National Sabre Champion (1961, 1963, 1965, 1966, 1967, 1970): North Atlantic Sabre Champion (1966, 1968): Member, US Team-World Championships (1958): Member, US Team-Warsaw, Poland (1961): Member, US Team-Hungarian Cup, Budapest, Hungary (1946): Member, US Team-World Championships, Paris (1965).
http://www.fencing.net/forums/thread19391.html

anyway, he used to tell a story of how he once was having a conversation with a kendo "master", who insisted that Japanese sword technique was inherently superior to western style; so Pongo agreed to "spar" with him; as Pongo tells it, the kendo guy became very upset and stormed away after he was unable to land a single shot and Pongo was basically "touching" him at will (using an epee, if I recall);

of course I wasn't there, I don't know if it's true, but this guy was the real deal as regards his skill level and if you walk into NY Athletic Club fencing today and asked about him, you'd get nothing but respectful acknowledgement about the man

take-home message is, of course, don't fu(k w Hungarians...:D

addendum: oh yeh - don't fu(k w/competitive-level fencers either - you have no idea how much a blunt blade can hurt from a foil, and getting slashed with a dull saber is no fun either - don't think that there is no pain involved just because there is safety equipment; going against a skilled epee-man (who is trained to strike the entire body, FYI) w/a pair of BJD would be tantamount to suicide - why do you think that the rapier was the preferred weapon, with or without dagger, for so long, as opposed to twin short swords?

[punchdrunk]

LOL... you must have missed all the early UFC's, not to mention the recent fight of Randy Couture vs. James Toney, not to mention all the hundreds of early clips of standup guys getting schooled by grapplers.

Im confused sounds like your supporting my view that grapplers have an advantage...

[punchdrunk]

chusauli An Olympic fencer would not be swiping his sword around like a fool.

so what does an Olympic fencer do if I just ignore his scored point and rush in past the range of his foil.. sure he can score the point but does he have any training or experience on what to do inside his sword range.(betcha he starts swiping) If I ignore his one point and slash him 10 times.. to most people I would appear the winner.

this is an example of sport specificity training, an Olympic fencer does not train for what to do outside of their sport.

Similar example... in the 80`s most karate or tkd schools only did light or non-contact sparring. If you wanted to be a jerk you could enter there comps and ignore their rules. First time they try a light kick you catch it and run them out of the ring. You lose by dq but look tough to your friends cause you manhandled the guy.

remember that clip of judo guys doing kendo and they were massacring the kendo guys.. same thing again.

[Knifefighter]

chusauli An Olympic fencer would not be swiping his sword around like a fool.

so what does an Olympic fencer do if I just ignore his scored point and rush in past the range of his foil.. .

With sharp blades and no protection the scored point would more than likely have been in the front of the body and out the back.

[Knifefighter]

Im confused sounds like your supporting my view that grapplers have an advantage...

Your view seemed to be that the grapplers only had the advantage with light strikes.

[lkfmdc]

Stumbling into this late (as usual) but does it surprise you (I'm talking to Knifefighter) that people who still cling to "TMA" and don't see evolution in martial arts would not understand evolution in weapons?

The Olympic sport is related to evolution in dueling, where better, quicker, more dangerous, more LETHAL sword fighitng quickly replaced much clumsier and less effective methods.

Of course, back then, in real dules, people DIED so they were more prone to "listen up" and adapt than the typical TMA person who still clings to their "tradition"

[punchdrunk]

no must be a mis-communication, grapplers aren't limited to just being good at light contact. As far as lunging straight through someone with a sword.. well that takes intent, if your just doing light contact to score a point it probably won't happen. Just like you probably won't get knocked out by your opponent in a light contact sparring match even if you cheat. Not saying it can not happen, just saying touch sparring people usually don't know how to knock people out, and I'm guessing most fencers have never run someone through with a sword.
Just guessing really, until the clip is unearthed thats all we are doing.

[Knifefighter]

no must be a mis-communication, grapplers aren't limited to just being good at light contact. As far as lunging straight through someone with a sword.. well that takes intent, if your just doing light contact to score a point it probably won't happen. Just like you probably won't get knocked out by your opponent in a light contact sparring match even if you cheat. Not saying it can not happen, just saying touch sparring people usually don't know how to knock people out, and I'm guessing most fencers have never run someone through with a sword.
Just guessing really, until the clip is unearthed thats all we are doing.


Fencers train with more "real intent" than most MA people who practice forms and light contact, since they are, essentially, training and competing with "full contact".

[lkfmdc]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_az07PLfwhLw/Sy_Ke2_WGKI/AAAAAAAABqQ/kEgFpNLdyYk/s400/fechtbuch.jpg

http://www.thearma.org/essays/fabris3.gif

http://www.spamula.net/blog/i06/alfieri3-thumb.jpg

that's just a few examples of how sword fighting really played out

[Dave McKinnon]

IKFMDC

I agree with you in most respects but in the pictures you posted there is one killing and another being killed.

In the Olympic matches I watched on Youtube, there were near simultaneous kills.
It is one thing to train more efficiently and as close to real as possible ala MMA and maybe the Dog Brothers, but it is quite another thing to go all the way to TKD/ Fencing where it becomes a judgment call on who won the point.

Tell me what you think maybe I am missing something.

[ShaolinDan]

anyone else notice all the traditional kung fu poses there are in those old European sword pics? funny stuff. :)

[Sihing73]

Dale,

Are you familiar with the Karambit? Tell me would you consider that to be a thrusting weapon or a slashing weapon? ;) Of course, you could point out the Kris which is exclusively a thrusting weapon. The Kris is not really designed to slash and the blade is not strong enough to support a style other than one which thrusts.

As to using a sword; styles vary with some relying more on thrusts and some more on slashing. Consider the three weapons found in fencing, Foil, Epee and Saber. Each one has it's own distinct flavor.

I suppose that the Two Handed Broadsword is primarily a thrusting weapon as well :D, There are plenty of blade cultures which do not rely on a thrust as the primary method of attack. Of course, a thrust to the right area is very dangerous and in many cases can be deadly.

However, read your history, you will find that in many cases, duelist received several thrusts from foil type weapons and did not die. As a matter of fact, many times a single thrust did not have much affect on the receiver who was still able to respond and in several cases kill his attacker. Consider the size of the blade and tip of the common foil like weapon and you will see that a killing thrust needed to be to a very precise target. Then look at a slashing weapon and you will see that it does not need to be as precise.

Sorry to disagree, but the death of someone from a sword duel often was a result of infection and poor medical skill.

I am not saying that a thrust is not dangerous or will not result in a kill. But, I think that to discount the effectiveness of a slash is foolish.

Kind of like those guys who seem to think that if you don't train at a MMA gym that you are unable to fight. :D

[Knifefighter]

Dale,

Are you familiar with the Karambit? Tell me would you consider that to be a thrusting weapon or a slashing weapon? ;) Of course, you could point out the Kris which is exclusively a thrusting weapon. The Kris is not really designed to slash and the blade is not strong enough to support a style other than one which thrusts.

As to using a sword; styles vary with some relying more on thrusts and some more on slashing. Consider the three weapons found in fencing, Foil, Epee and Saber. Each one has it's own distinct flavor.

I suppose that the Two Handed Broadsword is primarily a thrusting weapon as well :D, There are plenty of blade cultures which do not rely on a thrust as the primary method of attack. Of course, a thrust to the right area is very dangerous and in many cases can be deadly.

However, read your history, you will find that in many cases, duelist received several thrusts from foil type weapons and did not die. As a matter of fact, many times a single thrust did not have much affect on the receiver who was still able to respond and in several cases kill his attacker. Consider the size of the blade and tip of the common foil like weapon and you will see that a killing thrust needed to be to a very precise target. Then look at a slashing weapon and you will see that it does not need to be as precise.

Sorry to disagree, but the death of someone from a sword duel often was a result of infection and poor medical skill.

I am not saying that a thrust is not dangerous or will not result in a kill. But, I think that to discount the effectiveness of a slash is foolish.

Kind of like those guys who seem to think that if you don't train at a MMA gym that you are unable to fight. :D

I'm basically talking knives, not swords. You can't compare the two. They are completely different.

The fact is the huge majority of knife deaths are caused by multiple stab/penetration wounds. Slash type wounds are rarely fatal in knife encounters.

People who regularly fought with blades in the past knew this from personal experience. They knew that when the distance closed to short blade range, anyone who tried to slash would immediately be overwhelmed and killed by someone who used penetrating, forceful stabs.

But then, why would I be surprised when TMA guys don't pay attention to what actually happens in real life?

[Sihing73]

I'm basically talking knives, not swords. You can't compare the two. They are completely different.

The fact is the huge majority of knife deaths are caused by multiple stab/penetration wounds. Slash type wounds are rarely fatal in knife encounters.

People who regularly fought with blades in the past knew this from personal experience. They knew that when the distance closed to short blade range, anyone who tried to slash would immediately be overwhelmed and killed by someone who used penetrating, forceful stabs.

But then, why would I be surprised when TMA guys don't pay attention to what actually happens in real life?

So Dale, lets not avoid my question:

Are you familiar with the Karambit? If so would you consider this to be a slashing or thrusting weapon? Since that knife is still in use in certain parts of the world, I guess they did not get the memo concerning slashes be less dangerous than thrusts, right?

Also, what knowledge do you have of the Bart Jum Do? Are these more slash or thrusting weapons?

I am sure your knowledge and experience far exceeds the rest of us so please answer my questions so I can be enlightened.

[Knifefighter]

So Dale, lets not avoid my question:

Are you familiar with the Karambit? If so would you consider this to be a slashing or thrusting weapon? Since that knife is still in use in certain parts of the world, I guess they did not get the memo concerning slashes be less dangerous than thrusts, right?

Also, what knowledge do you have of the Bart Jum Do? Are these more slash or thrusting weapons?

I am sure your knowledge and experience far exceeds the rest of us so please answer my questions so I can be enlightened.

The Karambit is best used as a slashing instrument, because curved weapons are generally not suited for penetration. It is also much less efficient as a weapon than are straight edged weapons (which is the reason that the majority of armed forces throughout the world have always used straight edged cutting weapons).

The Bart Jum Do like the machete can be used for both slashing and stabbing.

[Sihing73]

The Karambit is best used as a slashing instrument, because curved weapons are generally not suited for penetration. It is also much less efficient as a weapon than are straight edged weapons (which is the reason that the majority of armed forces throughout the world have always used straight edged cutting weapons).

The Bart Jum Do like the machete can be used for both slashing and stabbing.

Dale,

Your opinion of the effectiveness is just that an opinion.

I would say that the reason that most "Armed Forces" as you say use a straight weapon is reliant more on the fact that it takes more skill to effectively use a curved blade than a straight one. This does not necessarily make a curved weapon less effective, I guess a Scimtar is not an effective weapon as it is curved. Also, I guess the Cutlass was so popular because it was also less effective than a "straight" blade.

Although, to be fair, the Cutlass was used in an environment usually with less space and the shorter slightly curved blade fit that environment. Which again kind of underscores my earlier point of differing blades, and environments requiring different tactics.

Since you are such a wealth of knowledge on the subject, I am curious as to when the last time you fought someone with a "sword" was? I am sure you simply took them down and used your ground fighting skills to defeat them. I wonder, if your opponent had a Karambit, and knew how to use it, if you would be willing to go one on one as it is such an ineffective weapon? :rolleyes:

[Knifefighter]

Since you are such a wealth of knowledge on the subject, I am curious as to when the last time you fought someone with a "sword" was? I am sure you simply took them down and used your ground fighting skills to defeat them. I wonder, if your opponent had a Karambit, and knew how to use it, if you would be willing to go one on one as it is such an ineffective weapon? :rolleyes:

Although I fenced for a few years, I've never claimed to be an expert at the sword. Any expertise I have is with short blades.

Would I be willing to go against the Karambit and I have my own straight-edged blade? Absolutely. Any time. Are you stepping up?

[Sihing73]

Although I fenced for a few years, I've never claimed to be an expert at the sword. Any expertise I have is with short blades.

Would I be willing to go against the Karambit and I have my own straight-edged blade? Absolutely. Any time. Are you stepping up?

Dale,

We've been down that road before.................unless you want to visit Toccoa it is not likely either of us will get together.

Although, from what Phil has told me about you, we'd probably get along well. Imagine that :eek:

[Knifefighter]

BTW, if you look at the history of most exotic curved weapons, they usually were the result of the necessity of using a tool that was used for sustenance by an indigenous culture and weren't developed specifically as a fighting weapon. Specific bladed fighting weapons are rarely curved much, or at all... it's not efficient use of force transmission for that goal.

[Sihing73]

BTW, if you look at the history of most exotic curved weapons, they usually were the result of the necessity of using a tool that was used for sustenance by an indigenous culture and weren't developed specifically as a fighting weapon. Specific bladed fighting weapons are rarely curved much, or at all... it's not efficient use of force transmission for that goal.

Well, FWIW, I prefer a straight edged weapon myself. I think that you will find that most weapons have their roots in some sort of non-fighting necessity. It is only when man started to refine tools for the purpose of better killing his kind that "weapons" were developed. Also, it is easier to argue a "legal" use for the commonly accepted straight blade than for some exoctic curved blade.

A lot of curved weapons have a heavier point to better aide in the swinging or slashing type of blow.

Perhaps one of the most famous weapons actually used for combat, even into the last century is the Ghurka. Now those were and are some tough people and they opt to use a curved blade in real combat. I would say that says something about how effective a curved blade can be in the hands of someone skilled in using it.

[Vajramusti]

QUOTE=Sihing73;1039845]Well, FWIW,


Perhaps one of the most famous weapons actually used for combat, even into the last century is the Ghurka. Now those were and are some tough people and they opt to use a curved blade in real combat. I would say that says something about how effective a curved blade can be in the hands of someone skilled in using it.[/QUOTE]
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Dave-Threads wander off in different directions. Don't care to debate. The true Gurkhas come from key clans in western Nepal- the Gurungs and the Thapas. When the Gurung &Thapa recruitment was not enough then the Brits and the Indian armies recruited from other clans- some of whom were even from eastern Nepal.
A true Gurkha is well trained with the use of the kukhri. Both the British and Indian armies still have
Gurkha regiments for close quarters work though they are also trained with firing weapons.
The Gurkhas with their Kukhris were in battle against bayonets with Montgomery in Africa in WW2 and pushing the Japanese back in Burma. They were in the 3 Indo- Pak wars, frontline landing with the Brits in the Falkland islands among other places. There are some Gurkhas with NATO forces in Afghanistan.
The kukhri in good hands(key factor) is an awesome weapon.
The BJD is for developing wing chun motions but the kukhri- sometimes called the bhojali in some places is still practiced with for Gurkhas joining the British or Indian armies.The loyalty, courage and skill of a well trained Gurkha with a kukhri is superb.With the right curve- the kukhri has multiple uses-in the right hands the curve can deflect bayonets and swords and cut the hands of knife holders before killing them.
I have had the good fortune of knowing two skilled Gurung kukhri users quite well. Both had seen front line army combat.
The ceremonial kukhri is large and associate witha regiment or water buffalo sacrifice in a paticular season(Dassehra) The regular kukhri blade is about a forarm length- the officer's kukhri is shorter for last split second work and a well made kukhri will have two well made mini knives- one for sharpening and for ripping at exremely close quarters.
There are lots of poor quality touristy kukhris but the real kukhri can withstand great force if needed but otherwise move very fast in the right hands.All parts of the kukhri have their uses.
Back to the rest of the thread.

joy chaudhuri

[Knifefighter]

Gurkha regiments for close quarters work though they are also trained with firing weapons.
The Gurkhas with their Kukhris were in battle against bayonets with Montgomery in Africa in WW2 and pushing the Japanese back in Burma. i

I think it was pretty much conclusively proven over the last hundred years or so that soldiers with bladed weapons are never a match for solidiers with firearms. Armies with more than a rare few instances of soldiers reverting to bladed weapons became extinct extremely quickly



They were in the 3 Indo- Pak wars, frontline landing with the Brits in the Falkland islands among other places. There are some Gurkhas with NATO forces in Afghanistan.
The kukhri in good hands(key factor) is an awesome weapon.

LOL @ thinking any bladed weapon plays more than an extremely minor role in any modern combat.

[Knifefighter]

Perhaps one of the most famous weapons actually used for combat, even into the last century is the Ghurka. Now those were and are some tough people and they opt to use a curved blade in real combat. I would say that says something about how effective a curved blade can be in the hands of someone skilled in using it.

I think most mechanical engineers will quickly tell you that curved weapons are not very efficient.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

LOL @ thinking any bladed weapon plays more than an extremely minor role in any modern combat. Why do some ex-mils tout their bladework so much then? Is it precisely because they haven't done any?

[Knifefighter]

Why do some ex-mils tout their bladework so much then? Is it precisely because they haven't done any?

Bingo! Modern armies don't fight with blades.

[YungChun]

In a quasi related topic....

Some guy was knifed in the center of downtown New Rochelle (my little suburb) today in broad daylight... The knife was said to be on the large side and police apparently thought the, now murderer, had disposed of the blade by tossing it down a sewer duct.

No arrest has yet been made as far as I know.

[Sihing73]

Bingo! Modern armies don't fight with blades.

Dale,

You ever served in uniform???

In Nam our "modern army" got close and personal with the enemy and fought not only hand to hand and with blades but with entrenching tools as well.

What is fair is to say that todays armies fight primarily with firearms, shoot a lot of todays warfare is carried out by unmanned drones. Still, there are times and instances when one will need to get up close and personal, though mostly these are done by specialized units with specific training unavailable to the average soldier.

Blieve it or not, Dale, there are times when one has to close with the enemy and get down and dirty. Of course the ones who survive are all from MMA gyms as we all know they are the only ones really prepared for combat in the real world.......right Dale ;)

[bennyvt]

the gurkhurs fought with the austalian and NZ. They were supposed to be hard dudes

[Frost]

the gurkhurs fought with the austalian and NZ. They were supposed to be hard dudes

they are and they are fearless fighters and the British army has been lucky to have them, but the main way they used the knife was in sneaking up on sentry’s and cutting their throats, not face to face combat (for that they used modern weapons go figure) read any of their exploits in Malaya, Falkland’s etc and they are praised for the their courage under fire and fighting abilities with modern weapons

[Frost]

and as an aside as soon as i say the whole slashing cutting verses stabbing arguement i knew knifefighter would have to post :)

I have no experience of actual knife fighting (like most here I suspect) but what Dale says is exactly what I have heard from guys who have survived real attacks and changed the way they few knifes accordingly.
The creator of the STAB programme was attacked by multiple knifes and cut dozens of times on one occasion, survived and developed his system is based around surviving a stabbing, I know several students of Geoff Thompson who say the same, with a knife penetration is the real concern, it’s not that you won’t get slashed or cut, it’s that the real killing blows come from penetration wounds (this is also what I have heard from a few nurses I know)

[Ultimatewingchun]

So after 10 pages we "now" know that slashes are dangerous and can be useful but it's thrusting stabs that are the most deadly.

Go figure, huh?!

When fighting with a knife.

Great....and of course.

But do you think that maybe the size of two sharpened butterfly swords working together might have something to do with why slashes can be, in addition to useful, also very dangerous?

Like the diagonal slash of a kendo sword?

Ya' think?

[Sardinkahnikov]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vu47mAQ3Hzg :D

"it looks so good!" lol

[Xiao3 Meng4]

I'm having problems figuring out if, when people say "slash," they mean:

1) slice
2) chop
3) cleave

So what exactly are you guys talking about?

The way I see it, slicing is useful only if the slice is long. Chopping is useful only if the chop severs connective tissue. Cleaving is useful only if there's an opportunity to cut something off.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Obviously a sword is not a knife and a knife is NOT a sword.
Cut VS thrust is as old as the hills on grannies chest and twice as dusty and it is a pointless argument.
In regards to the sword:
It depends on WHICH weapon you use - straight sword = thrust as primary weapon and curved sword = cut/chop as primary one.

As for knives, slashes have their place, but the thrust is the killer.

The "inbetweens" are the gray area, machetees and such.
But typically weight is the factor, a heavy blade is ideal for chopping a limb while a lighter, strighter blade is ideal for shesh-kebob.

All one has to do is some test cutting and you will see this, also a few videos are out there to, "The myth of the sword" is a good one for most people.

[jesper]

Dale,

You ever served in uniform???

In Nam our "modern army" got close and personal with the enemy and fought not only hand to hand and with blades but with entrenching tools as well.

What is fair is to say that todays armies fight primarily with firearms, shoot a lot of todays warfare is carried out by unmanned drones. Still, there are times and instances when one will need to get up close and personal, though mostly these are done by specialized units with specific training unavailable to the average soldier.

Blieve it or not, Dale, there are times when one has to close with the enemy and get down and dirty. Of course the ones who survive are all from MMA gyms as we all know they are the only ones really prepared for combat in the real world.......right Dale ;)

A lot of the fighting going on in Afghan (well for danish or british troops in Helman province anyways) happens at less then 10-20 meters. You will still try and shoot the scum first but sometimes **** happens

[jesper]

they are and they are fearless fighters and the British army has been lucky to have them, but the main way they used the knife was in sneaking up on sentry’s and cutting their throats, not face to face combat (for that they used modern weapons go figure) read any of their exploits in Malaya, Falkland’s etc and they are praised for the their courage under fire and fighting abilities with modern weapons

A little anecdote from WW2 pacific area.
The ghurkas would sneak up on you in the middle of the night and with one hand grab your jaw. if you had stubs you would still be breathing a second later. That was how they told the americans from the japanese :)
Well according to anecdotes anyways.

Modern day ghurkas are quite "funny". On one hand when you meet them in camp or outside direct frontlines they are some of the nicest people on earth. During firefight they are really really nice to have on your side.

True story from afghan.
A ghurka sergeant was told to go fetch a taliban leader or bring proof of his death. Well He didnt know how to use the issued camera so he cut of the leaders head and brought it back to his CO