Koran Burner the Rev. Terry Jones

[SanHeChuan]

What Christians Can Learn from Koran Burner the Rev. Terry Jones (http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20100911/us_time/08599201744700)


Even ogres can serve a purpose. The "Reverend" Terry Jones has at least shown us the ugly consequences of the Islamophobia that was this summer's political fad - by turning the tables. How does it feel to be caricatured as a nation of Koran-burning radicals? Americans were appalled to find that a solitary religious bigot and his tiny congregation of 50 pseudo Christians had hijacked our global image. We squirmed as a warped little corner of America's Judeo-Christian culture colored the entire country in the eyes of the world - the way Americans let a warped little corner of Islamic culture color all Muslims, even Muslim Americans.

Let's not point fingers: Jones was everybody's Frankenstein, starting with the media, my own profession. When it came to Jones and his so-called church, the Dove World Outreach Center, in Gainesville, Fla., we affirmed all those Onion.com lampoons that show today's media ready to hype any obscure idiot playing with matches as an important story. One of our biggest journalistic sins was helping right-wing demagogues like Newt Gingrich and Sarah Palin turn the "Ground Zero mosque" story into a disgraceful midterm wedge issue - and thereby encourage delusional, attention-starved hatemongers like Jones to build their bonfires of intolerance. Jones, in fact, insists that he suspended his Koran conflagration, which he'd planned for Saturday to mark the 9/11 anniversary, because he was told the New York mosque and cultural center would be moved. The mosque's imam denies that any such deal was struck, and Jones is now thinking aloud about rekindling his stunt.

We can't pin everything on 24-hour news or 24-hour Newt. Another summer lowlight was watching New Yorkers - supposedly among the world's most enlightened citizenries - expose their anti-Muslim underbelly. In a New York Times poll last week, two-thirds of them opposed the mosque near Ground Zero, one-fifth admitted to animosity toward Muslims, and one-third pegged Muslims as being sympathetic to terrorism. It's understandable at first to sympathize with New Yorkers who argue that a mosque near Ground Zero is insensitive - until you realize that what they're really saying is that all Muslims are like the ones who brought down the Twin Towers. And that's no better than a Muslim in Jakarta insisting that all Christians are like Terry Jones. (See a brief history of lower Manhattan's diversity and conflict.)

One of the only positive things to take from this debacle is the realization that the genuinely enlightened city was Gainesville, which has roundly rejected Jones. Far from being the Bible Belt backwater that northerners like New Yorkers would assume it is, it's a progressive college town (home to the University of Florida) known for its green ethos, for electing an openly gay mayor this year - and for its strong interfaith climate. The Dove center recently complained on its website that Gainesville "may have more 'coexist' bumper stickers ... than anywhere else per capita." (Jones went to Dove in 2008 after being kicked out as the pastor of its sister church in Cologne, Germany, in part because of his messianic condemnation of Germany's tolerance toward Muslims.) (See how Gainesville turned against the book-burning pastor.)

When Mayor Craig Lowe was elected this year, Jones and his Dove devotees stood on Gainesville's streets holding signs that read "No **** Mayor." These are the kinds of losers the media has inflated on the current-events roster these days - to the point at which no less than U.S. Secretary of Defense Robert Gates had to personally call Jones this week and plead with him not to burn Korans, as the act has the potential to inflame Muslim extremists and put U.S. troops in Afghanistan at risk.

Let's hope Gainesville's interfaith attitude now spreads. Maybe the Jones scare will prompt more Christian, Jewish and Muslim congregations to hold joint Father's Day services that honor their common ancestral link to Abraham - and remind Christians that burning a Koran means torching a text that mentions Jesus in reverential terms almost 100 times. My Muslim friends are as chagrined to see the misogynistic, ****phobic leadership of Saudi Arabia define their Islamic identity as I am to see the misogynistic, ****phobic leadership of the Vatican define my Catholic identity. And yet we find understanding in commiseration: just as they appreciate the spiritual debt that Islam owes Jesus, I recall that were it not for great Muslim thinkers like Ibn Rushd (called Averroes by the admiring Europeans) who conveyed classical learning to great Christian thinkers like Thomas Aquinas, my faith would have remained mired in the medieval mud.

So what can American Christians outraged by Jones' hatefulness do? Stop by a local mosque today and wish the people well as they celebrate 'Id al-Fitr, the end of the holy month of Ramadan (and try one of the great sweets). Or for that matter, wish Jewish people well as they celebrate the High Holy Days that began Wednesday evening with Rosh Hashanah. But most of all, remember how lousy it felt this week when the world equated you with Terry Jones.

[taai gihk yahn]

some thoughts I posted on FB...
"the religious rights enshrined in the constitution do not simply disappear just because the expression thereof causes a segment of the population to feel bad, or offended; the rights in the constitution are not to be ignored simply because they are inconvenient or do not conform to emotionally charged public sentiment; this is the precise reason why we are a "nation of laws not of men", because the PRINCIPLES of what makes America as such were deemed by the founding fathers to be intrinsically of such great value, that they needed to not be subject to the transient feelings of any given individual or group; see, it's easy to tout the values that make America "great" when you speak in the abstract - but here now we have a CONCRETE opportunity to make those values known to all; and yet, those who are the first to whine about how the values of the founding fathers are being eroded are also the first on the bandwagon suggesting that these values be ignored! 9/11 was a horrific tragedy; but to use it as an argument to block the proposed Islamic cultural undermines the foundation upon which the laws of this country rest; and also "Islam" is, like ANY religion, a complex and variegated faith, with many different sects, from liberal sufi-ism to ultra-conservative wahabi-ism - it is not some monolithic, unified movement that is "behind" or responsible for 9/11; indeed, why does not one stop to think that maybe this Imam wants to build close to GZ in order to HONOR the site on behalf of his particular moderate expression of Islam?"

...

[David Jamieson]

hindsight is 20/20

[mooyingmantis]

We would have to burn a lot of Korans to ever catch up with the Muslim Arabs who burned US flags in celebration after the 9/11 incident. I remember them cheering in the streets all over the world when they heard the news.
Locally an Arab child was playing with a small plane at school, pretending to crash it into buildings. He thought it was great fun.
So forgive me if I am not overly sensitive to their feelings!

[Reality_Check]

We would have to burn a lot of Korans to ever catch up with the Muslim Arabs who burned US flags in celebration after the 9/11 incident. I remember them cheering in the streets all over the world when they heard the news.
Locally an Arab child was playing with a small plane at school, pretending to crash it into buildings. He thought it was great fun.
So forgive me if I am not overly sensitive to their feelings!

Yeah, I know. All Muslims clearly celebrated the attacks on 9/11.

Oh wait...

Iran Mourns American Dead (http://www.time.com/time/europe/photoessays/vigil/)

Expressions of grief and sympathy in the Arab and Muslim world (http://groups.colgate.edu/aarislam/response.htm#Expressions of grief and sympathy in the Arab and Muslim world:)

http://www.cair.com/Portals/0/pdf/September_11_statements.pdf

http://www.newsweek.com/photo/2010/09/08/we-could-learn-from-grace-and-unity-in-aftermath-of-september-11.html

http://www.floppingaces.net/2010/08/01/the-myth-that-the-muslim-world-celebrated-the-attacks-of-911/

Were there some people who celebrated? Yes. Does that mean we should tar almost 2 billion people as terrorists or terrorist supporters? No.

[jdhowland]

So forgive me if I am not overly sensitive to their feelings!

"Their feelings" ? Which they are you referring to? Sounds like a false identification.

[Syn7]

Locally an Arab child was playing with a small plane at school, pretending to crash it into buildings. He thought it was great fun.

can u source this???


i saw thousands of ARAB muslims celebrate 9/11... but what about the other couple BILLION muslims worldwide??? are they a part of "them"???

some muslims are moderate, liberal, others are conservative, fundamentalists... just like christians, they come in all ranges of the spectrum... it wouldnt be fair to lump all christians with the fundamentalist conservatives catholics would it??? like christianity, islam has many sects aswell... like christians arent all catholic, some are protestant, lutheran, mormon, etc etc... muslims come in all shapes sizes and temprements... its absolutely unfair and ignorant to group 1/4 of the planets human population as flag burning terrorist sympathisers... thats just wrong man... i mean do you really allow media to shape your beliefs about the world without any independant research and observation of your own??? the media will show a handful of people burning flags while millions go to their mosque and pray for peace, yet they get minimal coverage... does that mean there are more flag burners? or maybe its just a catchier front page for the sensationalistic editorials looking to create stories...

[mooyingmantis]

can u source this???

Yes, it happened in my wife's classroom.

Syn7, have you ever traveled to an Arab country? I have! I have seen them up close and personal.
I agree that a total people group should not be judged by the actions of a few. However, people groups can be defined by their culture. If their culture teaches animosity toward our culture why should we respect their culture.
I have nothing against Islam as a religion. But I do not have to respect Islamic culture. Though it is hard to separate one from the other, since each influence the other.

I personally would not burn another religion's holy book. However, I can understand the outrage felt by many in our country.

[Drake]

I spent a year in a muslim country. Good people. Better food. It's a small minority raising hell, and your outrage is exactly what they want.

[Syn7]

you dont have to respect muslim culture or arab culture???

i never defended arabs... i was pointing out that arabs are a very small minority of the muslim group as a whole... like less than 10% kind of minority... so it would still be unfair to lump all arabs together but nowhere near as unfair as lumping all muslims together... thats like a 1/4 of the worlds population man...

and quite frankly, you dont have to respect anything you dont wat to... beliefs, custums, faith, books, whatever... thats up to you, i just dont understand it... how is some guy in saudi arabia the same as some guy in minsk??? just because they read the same book and pray at the same times???


Yes, it happened in my wife's classroom.


thats insane... how old??? and it was a direct reference to 9/11 or just some kid, a bit of coincidence and a biased observer??? i guess i shouldnt ask that, its not fair cause you couldnt answer it to my satisfaction as i dont know your wife... i have seen some behaviour from moderates that dont exactly show terrorist sympathy but a bit of an apathy in some cases... atleast from some moderate arab muslims ive met... as for the rest of the mostly european white muslims that i know, they could care less about the whole middle east thing, its annoying to them to be lumped in like that... everything about their daily lives is different from the weather to the food they eat to the way they interpret their books... just like christianity, islam is a very fractured religion... various fights for power have led to inevitable splinters... just like christianity.... catholic and orthodox at first... then in the west it splitered like crazy after the dark ages... islam has a similar history, in this respect... they simply dont all believe the same things...

[mooyingmantis]

thats insane... how old??? and it was a direct reference to 9/11 or just some kid, a bit of coincidence and a biased observer??? i guess i shouldnt ask that, its not fair cause you couldnt answer it to my satisfaction as i dont know your wife...

Sixth grader, the day after the 9/11 attack. I wonder what kind of conversation at home would make a child think that was appropriate?

True, not all Muslims should be painted with the same brush.

I didn't say I condoned the burning of the Koran and I did state that I personally would not take such an action. I said I understood the group's frustration.

[BJJ-Blue]

can u source this???

Why, so the thread will get locked? Whenever a conservative sources anything here it's the death knell for the thread. ;)

As to my feelings on this, Mooyingmantis said it pretty well. As a Christian, the pastor should not burn the thing. But as an American, I wish he would have burned a million of them.

[MasterKiller]

Why, so the thread will get locked? Whenever a conservative sources anything here it's the death knell for the thread. ;)

As to my feelings on this, Mooyingmantis said it pretty well. As a Christian, the pastor should not burn the thing. But as an American, I wish he would have burned a million of them.

No, what gets threads locked is you calling people names.

[David Jamieson]

No, what gets threads locked is you calling people names.

well shotgunning the thread isn't the solution.

just prune the offensive posts. If necessary, moderate the offending poster out the digital door...so to speak.

[MasterKiller]

well shotgunning the thread isn't the solution.

just prune the offensive posts. If necessary, moderate the offending poster out the digital door...so to speak.

MK is a hammer, not a scalpel

[Dragonzbane76]

a$$hammer :)

[BJJ-Blue]

No, what gets threads locked is you calling people names.

But when I'm called names it's all good.

I'm actually not whining, I just want to get confirmation on where the goalposts are. ;)

[Dragonzbane76]

from the 50 yard line, it's 50 yards the other way. ;)

[MasterKiller]

But when I'm called names it's all good.

I lock those threads, too.

[BJJ-Blue]

I lock those threads, too.

David had some good ideas. I think just locking the thread for everyone when you only have one or two guys calling names is draconian.

I might also suggest using temp bans on the namecallers. Those seem to work on forums that use them.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There are many problems in Islam, that is a given, just as there are many problems in Christianity, but the internal problems are ones that MUST be dealt with by the followers of said religions.
Outside people tend to make things worse and fall in the lap of the extremists.

Islam needs to get their act together and get rid of the radical elements that are polluting it for the sake of control on their part.
Which can also be said of right wing Christians and even the Vatican.

Koran burnings add fuel to the fires, just as flag burnings do.

One can understand the pain and sympathise, but Christians should lead by example and forgive and reconcile, this is a lesson left to Us by Jesus.

[BJJ-Blue]

There are many problems in Islam, that is a given, just as there are many problems in Christianity, but the internal problems are ones that MUST be dealt with by the followers of said religions.
Outside people tend to make things worse and fall in the lap of the extremists.

Islam needs to get their act together and get rid of the radical elements that are polluting it for the sake of control on their part.
Which can also be said of right wing Christians and even the Vatican.

Koran burnings add fuel to the fires, just as flag burnings do.

One can understand the pain and sympathise, but Christians should lead by example and forgive and reconcile, this is a lesson left to Us by Jesus.

I completely agree that it's up to the followers of said religions to clean it up. But in that regard you cannot compare Christians with muslims. Look at the few times a 'Christian' shoots an abortion doctor here in the US. So far every one of them has been tried and convicted, and you know the juries have Christians on them. Contrast that to muslim countries where they donate money to suicide bombers families and tell their kids what martyrs the murderers were. Those people even hide the terrorists among themselves. Remember when we had a 'Christian' criminal on the run named Eric Rudolph? He had to survive by dumpster diving. He didn't have a network of followers and churches he could hide from the law in. His family was not getting huge donations from churches and followers of Christianity. Face it, Christians do a much better job taking out their garbage than muslims do.

Also, look at how much money Chrisitian nations give to charity and in foreign aid and contrast that with what muslim countries give to charity and foreign aid.

[MasterKiller]

David had some good ideas. I think just locking the thread for everyone when you only have one or two guys calling names is draconian.

I might also suggest using temp bans on the namecallers. Those seem to work on forums that use them.

Suggest all you want. I run it as I see fit.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I completely agree that it's up to the followers of said religions to clean it up. But in that regard you cannot compare Christians with muslims. Look at the few times a 'Christian' shoots an abortion doctor here in the US. So far every one of them has been tried and convicted, and you know the juries have Christians on them. Contrast that to muslim countries where they donate money to suicide bombers families and tell their kids what martyrs the murderers were. Those people even hide the terrorists among themselves. Remember when we had a 'Christian' criminal on the run named Eric Rudolph? He had to survive by dumpster diving. He didn't have a network of followers and churches he could hide from the law in. His family was not getting huge donations from churches and followers of Christianity. Face it, Christians do a much better job taking out their garbage than muslims do.

Also, look at how much money Chrisitian nations give to charity and in foreign aid and contrast that with what muslim countries give to charity and foreign aid.

There is no denying that christian tend to be far more liberal and giving to all, that is a given.
We still have much to clean up but thank God it isn't as bad as what the Muslims have to clean up.

[Syn7]

MK is a hammer, not a scalpel

when combined, MK hammer and bawaang asshammer, you have the ultimate hammer killer....!!!

theres actually a shaw bros movie about it... its called "master asshammer killer", ofcourse...







seriously though..... this is a discussion that needs to take place with everyone everywhere... for so longs its been taboo to criticise anything, this politically correctness is creating an atmosphere of acceptance, not tolerance...

to tolerate means you let it happen, even tho you may love it or hate it... thats tolerance... to accept it, well thats a whole different beast.... this whole discussion needs to happen more often... it will not progress in a positive manner if people arent honest and upfront about their feelings...

[MasterKiller]

http://imgbit.com/images/927f1ca7681246939716.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

Cause that is just how Awesome Jesus is !!!!
LMAO !

[KC Elbows]

SALINA, KS—Local man Scott Gentries told reporters Wednesday that his deliberately limited grasp of Islamic history and culture was still more than sufficient to shape his views of the entire Muslim world.

Gentries, 48, said he had absolutely no interest in exposing himself to further knowledge of Islamic civilization or putting his sweeping opinions into a broader context of any kind, and confirmed he was "perfectly happy" to make a handful of emotionally charged words the basis of his mistrust toward all members of the world's second-largest religion.

"I learned all that really matters about the Muslim faith on 9/11," Gentries said in reference to the terrorist attacks on the United States undertaken by 19 of Islam's approximately 1.6 billion practitioners. "What more do I need to know to stigmatize Muslims everywhere as inherently violent radicals?"

"And now they want to build a mosque at Ground Zero," continued Gentries, eliminating any distinction between the 9/11 hijackers and Muslims in general. "No, I won't examine the accuracy of that statement, but yes, I will allow myself to be outraged by it and use it as evidence of these people's universal callousness toward Americans who lost loved ones when the Twin Towers fell."

"Even though I am not one of those people," he added.

When told that the proposed "Ground Zero mosque" is actually a community center two blocks north of the site that would include, in addition to a public prayer space, a 500-seat auditorium, a restaurant, and athletic facilities, Gentries shook his head and said, "I know all I'm going to let myself know."

Gentries explained that it "didn't take long" to find out as much about the tenets of Islam as he needed to. He said he knew Muslims stoned their women for committing adultery, trained for terrorist attacks at fundamentalist madrassas, and believed in jihad, which Gentries described as the thing they used to justify killing infidels.

"All Muslims are at war with America, and I will resist any attempt to challenge that assertion with potentially illuminating facts," said Gentries, who threatened to leave the room if presented with the number of Muslims who live peacefully in the United States, serve in the country's armed forces, or were victims themselves of the 9/11 attacks. "Period."

"If you don't believe me, wait until they put your wife in a burka," Gentries continued in reference to the face-and-body-covering worn by a small minority of Muslim women and banned in the universities of Turkey, Tunisia, and Syria. "Or worse, a rape camp. That's right: For reasons I am content being totally unable to articulate, I am choosing to associate Muslims with rape camps."

Over the past decade, Gentries said he has taken pains to avoid personal interactions or media that might have the potential to compromise his point of view. He told reporters that the closest he had come to confronting a contrary standpoint was tuning in to the first few seconds of an interview with a moderate Muslim cleric before hastily turning off the television.

"I almost gave in and listened to that guy defend Islam with words I didn't want to hear," Gentries said. "But then I remembered how much easier it is to live in a world of black-and-white in which I can assign the label of 'other' to someone and use him as a vessel for all my fears and insecurities."

Added Gentries, "That really put things back into perspective."

http://www.theonion.com/articles/man-already-knows-everything-he-needs-to-know-abou,17990/

[KC Elbows]

Mounting Opposition To New York Islamic Center

Claiming the neighborhood where the Twin Towers once stood is sacred ground, radical conservative groups are spearheading opposition to the construction of a nearby Muslim community center, a facility that would include a swimming pool and a 9/11 memorial and be located more than two blocks from the attack site. Here are some other projects currently facing controversy:

* New York—New Citibank ATM vestibule just two blocks from site of devastating financial collapse
* Elizabeth, NJ—Bed, Bath, and Beyond on sacred IKEA grounds
* Pearl Harbor, HI—P.F. Chang's location a reasonable cab ride away from the U.S.S. Arizona Memorial
* Philadelphia—British consulate on hard-won U.S. soil
* Terre Haute, IN—Frito-Lay display planned for Baesler's Market is an affront to the fact that Terre Haute was the original U.S. test market for Pringles
* Culver City, CA—Comedy club built next to the site where that disaster Grown Ups was filmed
* Provincetown, MA—Organic artisan cheese stand set up next to raw cashew cheese booth at farmer's market
* Lakehurst, NJ—Balloon store only three miles from site of Hindenburg crash
* Olathe, KS—Barnes & Noble

http://www.theonion.com/articles/mounting-opposition-to-new-york-islamic-center,17956/

[KC Elbows]

"If you don't like it, go to Canada, where you'll die on the street waiting for medical attention and not understanding a word people say as they walk by, one after another, kicking you in the stomach for being sick."

http://www.theonion.com/articles/health-insurance-costs-shifting-to-workers,18073/

[sanjuro_ronin]

"if you don't like it, go to canada, where you'll die on the street waiting for medical attention and not understanding a word people say as they walk by, one after another, kicking you in the stomach for being sick."

http://www.theonion.com/articles/health-insurance-costs-shifting-to-workers,18073/

rotflmao !!!!

[Syn7]

I completely agree that it's up to the followers of said religions to clean it up. But in that regard you cannot compare Christians with muslims. Look at the few times a 'Christian' shoots an abortion doctor here in the US. So far every one of them has been tried and convicted, and you know the juries have Christians on them. Contrast that to muslim countries where they donate money to suicide bombers families and tell their kids what martyrs the murderers were. Those people even hide the terrorists among themselves. Remember when we had a 'Christian' criminal on the run named Eric Rudolph? He had to survive by dumpster diving. He didn't have a network of followers and churches he could hide from the law in. His family was not getting huge donations from churches and followers of Christianity. Face it, Christians do a much better job taking out their garbage than muslims do.

Also, look at how much money Chrisitian nations give to charity and in foreign aid and contrast that with what muslim countries give to charity and foreign aid.

you can compare christianity and islam... you need to be broad minded and non linear about this to have an accurate comparison... you compare all of it, yesterday and today... you have to take into consideration that both arent what they were 15 years ago, 70 years ago, 150 years ago 500 years ago and they arent what they will be in 25 years, 100 years etc etc... they have both had their ups and downs... i suggest you do an objective research and the history of both religions and understand that they are absolutely comparable, even similar... there are so many parralells that there are massive books on the subject... these two religions are products of two things, their pasts, and their current leaders... leaders change, and with the changing leaders is changing times, changing thought, different attitudes... most of the issues we have arent even religious, they are just human... we have more evenly distributed wealth then arabs do, and we are talking about arab muslims here because people seem to think all muslims are like arab muslims... in poor areas in eastern orthodox dominated areas the christians are deeply religious and there are more extremist in beliefs and more violent in defence of these beliefs... thats a human thing... a product of harder times... not a religious thing... people use this hiuman condition as an example of religious faults, and thats not completely fair... it does have some merrit, but nowhere near as much as its advertised by haters...

you can deny it all you want but in essence what you are saying is that you are better than "them" because what you believe is righteous and what they believe is barbaric... thats not very PC of you...

[BJJ-Blue]

http://www.theonion.com/articles/man-already-knows-everything-he-needs-to-know-abou,17990/


http://www.theonion.com/articles/mounting-opposition-to-new-york-islamic-center,17956/


http://www.theonion.com/articles/health-insurance-costs-shifting-to-workers,18073/

You do realize The Onion is a satirical paper, right? Will you be sourcing Mad Magazine and Cracked next?

[David Jamieson]

There are many problems in Islam, that is a given, just as there are many problems in Christianity, but the internal problems are ones that MUST be dealt with by the followers of said religions.
Outside people tend to make things worse and fall in the lap of the extremists.

Islam needs to get their act together and get rid of the radical elements that are polluting it for the sake of control on their part.
Which can also be said of right wing Christians and even the Vatican.

Koran burnings add fuel to the fires, just as flag burnings do.

One can understand the pain and sympathise, but Christians should lead by example and forgive and reconcile, this is a lesson left to Us by Jesus.

I think Christianity could stand a good clearing out of rot too. As could Judaism and all the rest. Freaking Indian government for instance denies that Caste is at play, but then add it to their census! This is a reflection of what happens here.

Just because they're dressed in a western liberal democracy uniform doesn't make them any less radical, or any less christian than say pat robertson or his ilk.

see, we dress our stuff up so that it isn't so easily identifiable as religious in intention.

Anyone can be a radical christian and do evil things but it's not "christian" that is applied to it so readily as it is the other way round when we are perfectly willing to call a secular radical terrorist from saudi arabia a "muslim terrorist" although he's not doing anything muslim and even less islamic.

and yet, we draw those divisions there and continue to do so. and through our government and media, we are encouraged to make these connections go even deeper.

the entire argument is completely ignorant because it stays in context of religion. and both religions in question demand that you believe in a personified and hidden god in the sky.

how do you start to approach a problem with a foundation in such outright stupidity?

faith is a personal thing. If anything, churches, temples and mosques should be muzzled and left out of any press whatsoever. Just shut them up and they can get back to worshiping their sky gods in quiet and everyone can keep their crazy religious beliefs to themselves.

at least then we can talk about what the real reasons for war in the modern era are about. resources and support of the military industrial complexes of the liberal democracies of the west.

we are there for control of the oil and control of the oil prices. we are their for the benefit of the jobs in these countries that oppress those countries, we are there to fuel our debt driven economies and with the intention of never having a sword as big as the one we have hanging over their heads hanging over ours.

It's quite obvious if you give it even 10 minutes of real thought beyond and superficial crap.

convictions are a greater enemy to truth than any lie will ever be. People who believe things despite being shown or educated otherwise are the same people who are the most dangerous elements in our society. They are willing to watch you die to ensure their convictions and beliefs aren't exposed for what they really are. extensions of fear and hatred.

[BJJ-Blue]

you can compare christianity and islam... you need to be broad minded and non linear about this to have an accurate comparison... you compare all of it, yesterday and today... you have to take into consideration that both arent what they were 15 years ago,

Ok, fine. 30 years ago those animals were murdering Olympians in the name of allah, and now they are flying planes into buildings in the name of allah. They still stone rape victims to death and behead people like they've been doing for hundreds of years. Looks like the same to me.

Sure, Christianity had its problems in the past. But when is the last time we had a witch trial and burned people at the stake? We change, they don't.


i suggest you do an objective research and the history of both religions and understand that they are absolutely comparable, even similar...

I've said it many times, and I'll have to say it again: When Christianity starts stoning rape victims to death, starts beheading people solely for their religion, and we start training our kids to be suicide bombers, feel free to compare us. Til then, don't lump my religion that teaches that only God can judge with that 'religion' that believes in throwing acid on women who don't cover their entire faces.


you can deny it all you want but in essence what you are saying is that you are better than "them" because what you believe is righteous and what they believe is barbaric... thats not very PC of you...

We are better than them because we teach our children to educate themselves and be productive citizens, while they teach their children that to be a suicide bomber is the highest honor they can achieve. They celebrate in the streets when thousands die due to terrorism. Once we start acting like that, then we are no better than them. And until we do, we will always be better than them.

[Syn7]

"If you don't like it, go to Canada, where you'll die on the street waiting for medical attention and not understanding a word people say as they walk by, one after another, kicking you in the stomach for being sick."

http://www.theonion.com/articles/health-insurance-costs-shifting-to-workers,18073/

better to wait than to be told to p i s s of and die somewhere else because you dont have insurance...;)


in all honesty though, ive never had anything but positive and fast and most impotantly free visits to the hospital... i practically lived there as a child... i had over 180 stiches in my head from about 5 different incidents... broke my arm 3 times, fell out of a moving truck, fell off a house, fell off a 10ft. wall onto a nice hard parking lot and theres more... all before i was 10... they always took great care of me... and im still beautiful!!!

[Syn7]

Ok, fine. 30 years ago those animals were murdering Olympians in the name of allah, and now they are flying planes into buildings in the name of allah. They still stone rape victims to death and behead people like they've been doing for hundreds of years. Looks like the same to me.

Sure, Christianity had its problems in the past. But when is the last time we had a witch trial and burned people at the stake? We change, they don't.



I've said it many times, and I'll have to say it again: When Christianity starts stoning rape victims to death, starts beheading people solely for their religion, and we start training our kids to be suicide bombers, feel free to compare us. Til then, don't lump my religion that teaches that only God can judge with that 'religion' that believes in throwing acid on women who don't cover their entire faces.



We are better than them because we teach our children to educate themselves and be productive citizens, while they teach their children that to be a suicide bomber is the highest honor they can achieve. They celebrate in the streets when thousands die due to terrorism. Once we start acting like that, then we are no better than them. And until we do, we will always be better than them.

NO, they murdered jews because of politics... the fact that they were olympian just made it high profile...

so who is them??? all muslims danced in the streets because of 9/11??? the IRA wishes they had thought of flying a plane into a building...


show me the passages in the koran where it says rape victims need to be stoned??? you cannot condemn all muslims for the interpretations and decisions or a very few... last i heard, muslims in minsk go by the same laws asthe rest of the poulation... or the muslims in germany... ofcourse there will always be some fundamentalist yelling out for sharia law, but most welcome the laws of the land, and infact moved to these places because of it... so do they renounce their faith? no, they move to a place where they can practice their faith in a way they deem proper...

fortunately our ruling class is mostly just christian in name, for political reasons... imagine what the states would be like if the fundamentalist christians were in control??? infact its the separation of church from state that makes america more productive... its the fact that the people said NO to religion in politics that we have come as far as we have... had the christian groups always had their way we would be alot more like arabs than we are...

its crazy that you dont see the paralells... you are far too linear to have this kind of discussion with me... if you think its ok for you to say you are better than muslims, then i can say im better than you...:p

[Zenshiite]

^You can't have any kind of rational dialogue with anyone like Bjj-Blue.

What in any of his posts make you think he's got the ability to see past his own biases?

What's the point? Fools like him are the very definition of the swine that Jesus said not to cast pearls before.

[BJJ-Blue]

NO, they murdered jews because of politics... the fact that they were olympian just made it high profile...

Get real, they've been murdering Jews since the dawn of time, and politics had zero to do with it.

But my point remains, they refuse to change while Christianity has.


so who is them??? all muslims danced in the streets because of 9/11??? the IRA wishes they had thought of flying a plane into a building...

'Them' are the muslims dancing in the streets. We all saw it on TV. Whenever an abortion doctor is murdered, do you see thousands of Christians dancing in the streets and shouting 'Death to doctors!'?

As to the IRA, you can't say that. When they fly planes into buildings you can compare them. Until then, do not bring conjecture into the debate.


show me the passages in the koran where it says rape victims need to be stoned??? you cannot condemn all muslims for the interpretations and decisions or a very few...

It's called Sharia Laws. The countries who have those do base it on that religion and the koran.

As for condemning people, they condemn all Americans as evil and the Great Satan. That's why they think killing thousands of innocent Americans just going to work is so wonderful.


imagine what the states would be like if the fundamentalist christians were in control???

Like it was in the days of the Founders. We didn't have welfare, 50% illigitimacy rates, record debt, and class warfare being waged by the President. Doesn't sound half bad, does it?


infact its the separation of church from state that makes america more productive... its the fact that the people said NO to religion in politics that we have come as far as we have... had the christian groups always had their way we would be alot more like arabs than we are...

I wouldn't say 'productive', but though I'm a Christian I believe in the 1st Amendment's freedom of religion as well as it's guarantee of freedom FROM religion.


its crazy that you dont see the paralells... you are far too linear to have this kind of discussion with me... if you think its ok for you to say you are better than muslims, then i can say im better than you...:p

It's crazy that you do see them. Again, show me Christians putting a price on an author's head like the muslims did to Salmon Rushdie. Show us teaching our children to murder innocent people over religion. Show us stoning rape victims to death. Show a Christian addressing the UN while armed like Arafat did. Please, please show me those similarities.

Call me linear all you want. You're just too PC to know how deal with someone who says simply 'right is right, and wrong is wrong'. Expecting us to be tolerant of the very people who call for our destruction is weakness of the highest caliber. And history has shown over and over that weakness invites violence.

[BJJ-Blue]

What's the point? Fools like him are the very definition of the swine that Jesus said not to cast pearls before.

We are not allowed to call names on this forum.

[KC Elbows]

You do realize The Onion is a satirical paper, right? Will you be sourcing Mad Magazine and Cracked next?

The only reason I was sourcing was to cite the quotes, otherwise, I'm not sure why you think it had anything to do with any argument, except the Canada one, because that's how Canadians are. If the others hit too close to home, not my problem, really, just found them funny and they were close enough to on topic for this thread.

That said, online argument is hardly a higher order of source than good satire, especially when it's not intentionally satirical.:D

[Syn7]

^You can't have any kind of rational dialogue with anyone like Bjj-Blue.

What in any of his posts make you think he's got the ability to see past his own biases?

What's the point? Fools like him are the very definition of the swine that Jesus said not to cast pearls before.

yeah, fair enough... some people think facts are just peoples opinions... whatcha gonna do aye!!!:rolleyes:

[Zenshiite]

We are not allowed to call names on this forum.

That's mainly you pal. You can't hold a civil conversation and you have to characterize everyone you don't like as "animals" as is clear from your generalization of Arabs in this thread, and your further generalization of Muslims by associating them with Arabs. You're a know-nothing and intellectually stunted.

That said, Islam is only the latest motivating force that mostly Arabs have brought to bear in their struggles against a political situation that they find intolerable. It's really only been Islam for the last 30 years. Before that it was nationalism. Religion became the fad when they realized that the nationalists were effing them over just as much as the colonialists and imperialists ever had. And it's becoming increasingly clear on the Arab Street that those parading themselves around as religiously motivated are just as bad and sometimes worse as those that came before. Worse yet, they are twisting and corrupting religion in order to justify their political views and guerrilla tactics. These guys have killed more of their countrymen and co-religionists than they have Americans or Europeans. You, and the Western media, have a tendency to forget this or ignore it because you clearly consider American, European and Israeli lives to be worth more. Whether it's racially motivated bias or culturally motivated, that's the reality.

You throw yourselves a pity party any time 9/11/01 is mentioned and conveniently forget that hundreds of thousands of people have died as a result of America's spasms of revenge that has resulted in military adventures in Iraq and Afghanistan. You throw Iraq into total chaos, upset centuries of peace between Sunni and Shia, for what? Which of Bush's excuses do you cling to? Worse yet, you forget that America's and Europe's meddling in the Middle East over the last 100 years has caused anguish and suffering that is felt to this day, and contributed directly to the political situation that led to 9/11/01. How many thousands of Arab lives were taken by the US and its allies to make someone think it would be a good thing to take a mere fraction of that number 9 years ago?

As far as Shariah goes, it is a cruel facade of "Shariah" that a woman would be stoned for adultery when she was raped. It is totally against the Shariah, as the rapists are to be executed under a just application of Shariah punishments for those sorts of crimes. Please do not equate all Muslims, or indeed even the Shariah that all Muslims follow in their daily lives, with Saudi Arabia. The Saudis no more speak for Islam than the FLDS speaks for Mormons or indeed all Christians. In fact, with classical Shariah scholarship it could easily be demonstrated that the Saudi practices are in direct conflict with Shariah. So please, refrain from speaking about something you clearly know nothing about.

As far as Islam supposedly having more problems than Christianity, I dispute that. I'd say problems are on a similar level. The major difference now being that Christians have successfully masqueraded many of their darker tendencies as patriotism or nationalism while Arab Muslims have caught onto religion for theirs'. As I said above, nationalism was the rallying cry of 40 years ago and religion has become a recent one. These are human problems, and they find their expressions in various ways. In cases where a population lack an efficient political system to air their grievances they tend to resort to vigilantism and political violence. When populations are disenfranchised and/or excluded from their political systems they become active in alternative ways and take to the streets and sometimes become militant. The disenfranchised and alienated have done the same in the US. Though nowadays people seem to be more sedated by creature comforts and lulled into a comfortable apathy. This is not the case in the Middle East, or not as much, though from what I've been told by people living there the kids are definitely playing many of the same video games as American kids. So who knows, the next generation may be comfortably lulled to sleep and accept their monarchies and autocracies without much rancor as Americans do their corrupt political system.

I'm also astounded that anyone can so easily demonize Muslims and Arabs as these terrible bloodthirsty killers. Yep, there are some horrific things we've seen on the news.. some nasty headline grabbing crap that's effectively used by the media to get you behind war by painting the "other" as a dirty savage beast. As we can see with 1bad/Bjj-Blue, he's readily accepted that kool-aid. The problem with that is, since 9/11/01 the United States military has been responsible for the taking of far more lives than al-Qa'ida ever has been, and far more lives than any Arab Islamist movement has been anywhere. Let alone combined. And prior to that, just since the turning of the 20th century, Americans and Europeans have been the worst killers on this planet. The worst the planet has ever seen. Gleefully butchering each other, with all sides using nationalism, patriotism and Christianity as a rallying cry.

Anyone that tries to claim Christians are inherently less violent and less stupid than Muslims is 100% full of s h i t. That person is either blatantly ignorant, or blatantly distorting fact for fiction. Frankly, anyone who is willing to tout atheists as less violent that religious people is equally full of it because we've got 2 rather large examples of how bloodthirsty totalitarian atheist regimes can be. So what's the bottom line? Human beings f u c k e d, and are more than willing to pick up on anything they can for justification as to why they can and should kill their fellow men. I, for one, believe what the Qur'an has said about this "if one human life is taken unjustly, it is as if you have killed the whole of humanity." Q 5:32

[Syn7]

'Them' are the muslims dancing in the streets. We all saw it on TV. Whenever an abortion doctor is murdered, do you see thousands of Christians dancing in the streets and shouting 'Death to doctors!'?

no i didnt see christians dancing in the streets after any doctor was murdered... but i saw many celebrate the shock and awe bombing in iraq that created one of the largest CIVILLIAN death tolls in such a short time since the big wars...



It's called Sharia Laws. The countries who have those do base it on that religion and the koran.

show me where it says that women are stoned for being raped in the koran... show me where its written from the original sources... it should be easy to find, no?

are you aware of how many countries actually have sharia law and what percent those people make in islam as a whole??? you should do some research before you use something as an example for your criticism... i mean if youre gonna feel superior and hateful, atleast do it based on real facts, not just assumed rhettoric you see on the news or hear in your hood...



As for condemning people, they condemn all Americans as evil and the Great Satan. That's why they think killing thousands of innocent Americans just going to work is so wonderful.


wow, i wish i had the ability to know the thoughts of BILLIONS of people... arab muslims make up a small % of all muslims... ive heard numbers everywhere from 4% to 20%... every year the number gets smaller, thats a constant...


I wouldn't say 'productive', but though I'm a Christian I believe in the 1st Amendment's freedom of religion as well as it's guarantee of freedom FROM religion.

if christians were righteous then why would they need that guarantee??? why is it that countries who do not have religious affairs mixed in with state affairs on average have a higher gdp per capita??? i'll tell you why, because religion stifles productivity because of its reverence of antiquity and inability to see beyond its own interests... well, the crusading expansionist religions anyways ie: christianity and islam...

religion is inherently selfish... anything it teaches that could help others, can be done without religion... its all about saving ones self...



Get real, they've been murdering Jews since the dawn of time, and politics had zero to do with it.
:rolleyes: okay we're done...thats the most apt phrase ive read all week... so edumacated and insightful...

[Syn7]

^That's mainly you pal. You can't hold a civil conversation and you have to characterize everyone you don't like as "animals" as is clear from your generalization of Arabs in this thread, and your further generalization of Muslims by associating them with Arabs. You're a know-nothing and intellectually stunted.

ok youre pointing at me but you cant be talking about me... i didnt generalize arabs, infact ive speant most of the time typing that arabs are a small minority of muslims... who is that all directed at???

[Zenshiite]

ok youre pointing at me but you cant be talking about me... i didnt generalize arabs, infact ive speant most of the time typing that arabs are a small minority of muslims... who is that all directed at???

No, I wasn't. You and KC got your posts in before I finished my typing rant. 1bad was the last poster at the time I started.

Note to self: use quote function.

Edit: I edited that post to reflect the above note to self.

[Syn7]

Call me linear all you want. You're just too PC to know how deal with someone who says simply 'right is right, and wrong is wrong'. Expecting us to be tolerant of the very people who call for our destruction is weakness of the highest caliber. And history has shown over and over that weakness invites violence.

you dont even seem to understand why i made my "linear" comment, the significance of why i used that particular word and its relation to why i feel you arent able to make a proper comparison... you are using your own experiences as an example for one side and what you see on tv and read in the paper to form the other side... as if each side is how you seem to see it, that you arent missing any info, you know all you need to know... youve besically said asmuch... the world isnt black and white... and its not right to lump people together like that...