Wah Lum Big Mantis

[mooyingmantis]

Does anyone know if this is the Wah Lum "Big Mantis" set?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVeFTUifEZY&feature=related

[sho'nuff]

peace! please excuse me for my lack of understanding of this form and wah lum in general, but this form looks very southern. the salute is southern and the movements look kinda southern to me also. i have had some hung gar and choy lay fut training and when he chambers that punch and pushes out that bridge it looks like hung gar a little. again i could be totally wrong and wah lum my have some southern mixed into it. sorry to go off topic.

[sho'nuff]

all tho he does have alot of the stomping that is known in nothern mantis.

[EarthDragon]

no disrespect at all but why oh why do teachers or students reffer to themselves as MASTER?

I liked his set but with his sometimes akward movements, non- rooting and his lack of focus and even head position all over the place the set looked a little like a student was performing not a master. again no disrepect, just an observation.

master to me means you cannot learn anymore as you have mastered your art what ever art that is.... martial arts is almost impossible to do that.

[Spidey]

mooyingmantis,

No, it's not Big Mantis.

It's supposed to be 1st Fist Form. :rolleyes:


- Pete



Does anyone know if this is the Wah Lum "Big Mantis" set?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVeFTUifEZY&feature=related

[18elders]

nope, not big mantis.
wah lum's big mantis is beng bu, MC changed the name to big mantis at some point in time, not sure why.
the form is supposed to be first form, not the best performance for sure.

[yu shan]

This is Bruce Linville, I believe he may have studied WL with Yao Li, one of MC`s early students from Boston. Now I wonder if this version of 1st form is an early rendition or if Shifu Linville changed it up. I certainly did not learn it this way. And yes it does have a southern feel and look to it. I have my theory about WL, but I dont dare want to start WWIII. And about Big Mantis Form, I have seen 3 differant versions. Maybe I should put it up for viewing, note I am doing it slowly for reference purposes. ;)

[iunojupiter]

As stated, this is not big mantis. this is a version of Wah Lum 1st Form, though it has some odd movements in it.

I would love to see a video clip of Wah Lum's Big Mantis! I have yet to see my Sifu perform it since we transitioned out of Wah Lum material. I would love to see how it differs from the Bung Bo I know.

cheers!

[EarthDragon]

Yu shan,

Shifu Linville changed it up.

you refer to him a shifu but he calls himself master? confus:confused:ed



Maybe I should put it up for viewing, note I am doing it slowly for reference purposes.


I like how you put a disclaimer in this sentance, no worries mang, even slow you can see if someone is good or just learning, there are many tapes of my shifu doing forms slow but you can see the "properness" of the set

[yu shan]

Search me ED, there are a lot of self appointed masters in this area.

[EarthDragon]

In your area too? LOL I thought it was just NY.

Robert Summers a well respected TKD guy from the old school in the 60's & 70's had a student named ketchen, he opened his own school and ran a BB factory for years turing out BB in a year from beginners.

Robert Summers died and the next week ketchen bought a new sign called MASTER Ketchens school of TKD, when his own students asked he said his teacher appointed him master on his deathbed. :rolleyes:

[mooyingmantis]

Thanks for the info guys!

Jim,
We would love to see you do Big Mantis. I always enjoy seeing your clips.

[woliveri]

OMG!!!

WHOLY KRAP!!....

Good lord

I'm just going to keep my big mouth shut on this one.... LOL

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

[ironfenix]

this is a version of big mantis.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpybIgYjVvA
although shorter than the version i have.

Big Mantis is what i call a carrot form... (hee haw)

[mooyingmantis]

Ironfenix,
Thank you for posting the form! Very different from what I expected, but very nice to see.

[YouKnowWho]

this is a version of big mantis.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpybIgYjVvA


It looks like the Beng Bu form.

[SoCo KungFu]

this is a version of big mantis.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpybIgYjVvA
although shorter than the version i have.

Big Mantis is what i call a carrot form... (hee haw)

Its been a loooooooonnnnnngggggg time since I've had any desire whatsoever to do a form and so I might be off but I believe a decent chunk was cut out of this from the way I was taught.

[mantis108]

this is a version of big mantis.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpybIgYjVvA
although shorter than the version i have.

Big Mantis is what i call a carrot form... (hee haw)

Um.... This is interesting because I have seen a more "abstract" version of Wah Lum big mantis. The version in the link is definitely more keen on following the Bengbu form although it is clear that something is missing which I believe is the reason that could be it being "shorter". The tell tale sign is the performer didn't finish at the starting point. All of the Bengbu versions available regardless of style should finish at the starting point. So...

BTW, I kind of like this version with the kicks added at certain places to showcase Wah Lum's kicking techniques (nicely and thoughtfully done really). However, the addition of fancy mantis hooks looking moves are kind of "out there" and really distracting... Also I wish the lady can relax a little bit more. She seems to be too tense thus giving the impression that she really is struggling through an otherwise beautiful form. Anyway, just a thought.

Mantis108

[Eric Hunstad]

This is Big Mantis but the young lady shortened it. It is very common for WL students to either shorten or change their forms for tournament competition.

What is also interesting is that you can tell the change that WL has undergone over the years. This young lady moves more like Mimi Chan (Chan Poi's daughter) than Chan Poi. As Mimi has been groomed to take over the system, nowadays all the students seem to move more like she does. If anyone has vids of WL from at least 10-15 years ago, you will notice that the movements are the same, but the "flavor" is different. Previously the forms were executed more like Chan Poi does on the Living Legends of Kung Fu video. Look at how he does Little Mantis and then look at how most WLers do it today. IMHO today it is much more "wushu-esque". I'm not flaming WL, just making an observation. WL is a beautiful style and it is a testament to the system that the forms can be interpreted or played in many different ways and still remain pleasing to watch. Mimi is the rightful heir and can instruct in any way she sees fit. It only makes sense that she teach the forms in a manner that suites her and her influence is felt throughtout the system.

WL always does well in forms competition and its a fun style to be involved in. Very forms oriented and lots of cool weapons to play with.

Eric Hunstad
www.OldSchoolKungFuNow.com
"Do not follow in the footsteps of the masters of old, seek what they sought"

[woliveri]

Eric or anyone....


Is this Mimi in the center (3 sectional)?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UfipOquJXg

[Eric Hunstad]

It's hard to tell for sure (dark and grainy video), but it looks like Mimi, George, and Tu.

Eric Hunstad
www.OldSchoolKungFuNow.com

[woliveri]

It's hard to tell for sure (dark and grainy video), but it looks like Mimi, George, and Tu.

Eric Hunstad
www.OldSchoolKungFuNow.com


With the crowd screaming like that when they took over I would say you're right.

[woliveri]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPVy7E96P-U&feature=related

[Eric Hunstad]

NOW THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKIN' BOUT!!!!!

I'm so glad you posted this- this is the WL that I know and love! Dean was always one of my favorites- he was what I like to call one of the Big Guns of WL.

This was when WL had some real heavy hitters. I have this video also- there are also some great performances on it by other WL Big Guns such as Tracy F., Sean C. , and Troy P.

Eric Hunstad
www.OldSchoolKungFuNow.com

[Eric Hunstad]

One the page you posted is a link to a young WL student named Phu doing a awesome drunken form for the WL2000 tournament. I remember thinking at the time that he had a real future in WL but I never heard anymore about him and haven't seen anyone with his skill level in WL forms since (but then again I'm out of the WL loop). It's good that clips like these are posted to hopefully inspire a new generation.



Eric Hunstad
www.OldSchoolKungFuNow.com

[woliveri]

NOW THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKIN' BOUT!!!!!

I'm so glad you posted this- this is the WL that I know and love! Dean was always one of my favorites- he was what I like to call one of the Big Guns of WL.

This was when WL had some real heavy hitters. I have this video also- there are also some great performances on it by other WL Big Guns such as Tracy F., Sean C. , and Troy P.

Eric Hunstad
www.OldSchoolKungFuNow.com


Yep, just wanted to show some contrast to the Tu/Mimi/George clip if that is indeed them.

Yep again, Dean, Sean, Tom Turcotte, Tracy F. and Troy... Good stuff. But remember, Master Chan taught classes in the early days and he's long retired from that so the flavor now as you mentioned is different.

In addition the atmosphere back then was just magical. You don't see that much any longer. There is just no equal to Master Chan and his flavor.

In fact, when I first contacted the temple for information about joining they responded with a Rice Paper letter with the WL emblem on it and MC's signature. Man I wish I still had that piece of paper. So cool.

[alextse4]

WL original called [Tang Lang Tan Tui Men螳螂探腿門],and was first known in [Hua Lin Temple華林寺] Shan Dong Province by a monk named [Cheng Yang 澄飬禪師]. The first generation outside the temple is [Li Kun Shan李昆山],he learned from Cheng Yang in the temple and went to [Bao An Shen Jing area of Guang Dong Province廣東省寶安縣深井] later. His first student was [Chen Yun Qing陳雲青], later [Chen Pei陳培]joined in. He set up a [Hua Lin Pai Chinese Martial Art Association華林派國術總會]in Boston East America in 1970. While his sihing Chen Yun Qing set up a [Shan Dong Hua Lin Pai Chinese Martial Art Association山東華林派國術總會in Hong Kong later in 1971. And changed the name of their style into [Shan Dong Hua Lin Pai山東華林派].

[iunojupiter]

One the page you posted is a link to a young WL student named Phu doing a awesome drunken form for the WL2000 tournament. I remember thinking at the time that he had a real future in WL but I never heard anymore about him and haven't seen anyone with his skill level in WL forms since (but then again I'm out of the WL loop). It's good that clips like these are posted to hopefully inspire a new generation.



Eric Hunstad
www.OldSchoolKungFuNow.com

Phu was a student of Stanley Tabor from Massachusetts (my Sifu). Unfortunately, he stopped studying martial arts when he started attending college. He was a phenomenal student. Watching him and his friend Jesse perform together was inspiring.

[SoCo KungFu]

this is a version of big mantis.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpybIgYjVvA
although shorter than the version i have.

Big Mantis is what i call a carrot form... (hee haw)

So I got out class early today and was bored so went back and reviewed it. She cuts the form close to the end around 55seconds. Which is somewhat disappointing because the road she cut and kinda slopped up is probably the most applicable part of the set... :(

[mooyingmantis]

So I got out class early today and was bored so went back and reviewed it. She cuts the form close to the end around 55seconds. Which is somewhat disappointing because the road she cut and kinda slopped up is probably the most applicable part of the set... :(

In some ways her performance looks like a blend of CCKTJPM beng bu and 7* beng bu. Does anyone else see this?

Could someone put the complete, real version of Wah Lum Beng Bu up? Yu Shan perhaps? :)

[iunojupiter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=burV6gUJ_Z0

is this the wah lum big mantis? he lists the video as Da TangLang and it looks like it might be the full form?

[ironfenix]

Nope. Not full.

[Shaolin Dude]

Phu was a student of Stanley Tabor from Massachusetts (my Sifu). Unfortunately, he stopped studying martial arts when he started attending college. He was a phenomenal student. Watching him and his friend Jesse perform together was inspiring.

Is Sifu Stanley Tabor still in the Wah Lum system?

[Chop Socki]

No - Stan Tabor hasn't been a part of the Wah Lum system for several years.

Phu is alive and well. I saw him for the first time in years at the Wah Lum Anniversary show in Boston in May and he looked great.

Finally, while I try to stay out of the business of contributing to the running commentary on forms people post, I will say that the one thing that turns me off to a form immediately is someone who has clearly learned it and practiced for the purpose of flashy moves without an understanding of the applications. It's the same answer I gave years ago when I was called on to judge forms in a competition and someone asked me how I could possibly feel qualified in scoring someone who studied a style I didn't practice, or performed something I didn't know: there are aspects of all practical martial arts that are common across styles. If the material isn't well known to the performer, if the stances aren't strong and rooted, if the techniques aren't completed because they're done too quickly, if the performer's focus isn't at the point where the technique (hand or weapon!) is being delivered, and if you can't puzzle out the application because it's more hand waving than hand technique, it's dance, not martial arts.

There's a bit of dancing in the links attached to this thread... :rolleyes:

Cheers!

- CS

[Eric Hunstad]

CS

Word!

Eric Hunstad
www.OldSchoolKungFuNow.com

[Spidey]

Eric or anyone....


Is this Mimi in the center (3 sectional)?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UfipOquJXg


Yes, that is Sifu Mimi.


- Pete

[Spidey]

It's hard to tell for sure (dark and grainy video), but it looks like Mimi, George, and Tu.

Eric Hunstad
www.OldSchoolKungFuNow.com


Correct.


- Pete

[kristcaldwell]

So I got out class early today and was bored so went back and reviewed it. She cuts the form close to the end around 55seconds. Which is somewhat disappointing because the road she cut and kinda slopped up is probably the most applicable part of the set... :(


i'm the guy who filmed this...and all i can say is: dude, cut her some slack. that's cori fukuchi - she's close to 60, and still competing in the advanced adult division at tournaments (not executive, adult). i doubt i'll be able to do what she's doing at that age.

[SoCo KungFu]

i'm the guy who filmed this...and all i can say is: dude, cut her some slack. that's cori fukuchi - she's close to 60, and still competing in the advanced adult division at tournaments (not executive, adult). i doubt i'll be able to do what she's doing at that age.

I was being rather reserved in that comment. The fact that this is considered advanced is all the more disappointing. But then I don't give much weight to forms as is so whatever...

The fact you can go to a kung fu tournament and find 50 people doing forms and only 5 actually sparring is all there is that needs to be said.

Personally I think they need to make continuous sparring mandatory for all those "grand champ" divisions everyone gets into. And application needs to be a part of forms competition.

[EarthDragon]

I hate tourneys, I used to do them when I was young and fighting full contact, ISKA stuff, but it was always filled with people who were looking to get a trophey and build up this unrealistic self confidence about what they were leanring.

when i got my black belt, I was a judge for a couple years and when was instructed to judge forms betwen 7 and a 8.5 WTF is that?

The overweight girl whos gi didnt fit her who sucked and kiyaed off beat and had no form, no stance or power would get a 7.3 and someone who had great form, good stances, power style and grace got a 7.8 this type of craap is what killed the real martial artist.... take the paul mitchell team for instance....... end rant.

[mooyingmantis]

i'm the guy who filmed this...and all i can say is: dude, cut her some slack. that's cori fukuchi - she's close to 60, and still competing in the advanced adult division at tournaments (not executive, adult). i doubt i'll be able to do what she's doing at that age.

Amazing for 60 years old! Props to her!

[Eric Hunstad]

Pushing 60 and can move like that and hold those low stances?

Wow, kudos to her. Most people her age are on 10 different Rx's and move like the tin man from the Wizard of Oz.

This woman demonstrates the true goal of kung fu, regardless of whether she can fight or not.

Eric Hunstad
www.OldSchoolKungFuNow.com

[SoCo KungFu]

Now THIS is old people kicking ***. L-Pull ups and 1 arm push ups > horse stances IMHO.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GEjC2tmj_I