Jon Funk

[nfboy]

So I am interested in doing kung fu here in Vancouver. Always been interested in mantis kung fu. So I have done some research on Jon funk, 7*mantis, watched a class and talked to him. I am wondering how someone can be a sifu in 7*mantis and not know all the forms of that style or be certified by a 7* sifu? I did not want to ask Mr.Funk these questions directly as I did not want to offend him, but the more I read about 7*mantis and about him I kinda think he is a fraud! His skill level in stick hands and push hands seems very average at best and his lack of forms I find very questionable.

[holymantis]

I have to disagree with you about his skill.
I have met Jon almost 20 years ago now and he was very very good with his skill level.
his forms are good also . love to know what you really want he can teach you how to fight also very well
regards Roy:D

[nfboy]

I didn't say his form's were no good or that he cant perform them well , but how can you call yourself a sifu if you don't know all the forms to the system. The only staff form he knows is 5th son staff which is a very basic kids set, he does not know the kwan dao, double handed sword, horse chopper, chain whip, double hammers. He only teaches one broad sword form and one straight sword form and one spear form. When I asked about the other weapon forms he said you don't need to learn them there not important , just a repetition of the same material found in the spear, staff, and sword forms he teaches. sounds like B.S to me. As for sparring it looked like bad kickboxing at best, no mantis applications used that I could see. Just to let you know I have 10 yrs of hung gar and thai boxing before moving to Vancouver so i know what to look for in a sifu.

[iron_silk]

I have no opinion on Sifu Funk. I have seen his students perform primarily fist forms and there are a certain level to them.

I think someone is a Sifu when they have been given permission to teach and students decide to follow them. Whether they have the full curriculum is up to debate if it is relevent or not. If you want to learn from him, i.e. he's got what you want to learn then he's your sifu, if he doesn't then he's not. Simple as that.

I know of a few kung fu club in Vancouver area. However if you are only interested in mantis kung fu then the only other mantis school I know is Tai Chi Mantis.

Here is the website: http://www3.telus.net/tkftc/index.html

[SanHeChuan]

It's common not to have all the forms of the system. Usually only the inheritors get all the forms.

certified? The only currency in Kung Fu is GOOD Kung Fu not fancy pieces of paper with pretty words on them, or the number of forms you have.

[EarthDragon]

nf boy
The only staff form he knows is 5th son staff which is a very basic kids set, he does not know the kwan dao, double handed sword, horse chopper, chain whip, double hammers. He only teaches one broad sword form and one straight sword form and one spear form.

Can I ask you a question? would you rather have a teacher than knew a couple weapons and knows them well or a teacher who knows many weapons and knows them so so. It is always better to be really good at a few theings than average at a lot.

I have have 21 years in mantis 14 and I dont know any weapons, but my fighting is superb, you gotta ask yourself whats more important.

I would say with as many weapons as you listed no one could spend enough time to be good at any of them.

[mooyingmantis]

From the tone of your initial post you seem more interested in attacking Mr. Funk than seeking information that would help you choose whether to be his student or not.
7* PM has nearly 100 forms with empty-hand and weapons sets. I doubt you will find a handful of people on the American continent that has them all.

[LaterthanNever]

There are I believe 117 total forms in 7 star mantis!! As someone mentioned the last 20 or so are reserved for the inheritor of the style. So unless Sifu Funk is passed on the torch..how could he know all of them? And by know..do you mean recite the name of the form or do the form? I think you are being too hard on the man. Here is a PARTIAL list:

MAJOR FORMS OF SEVEN STAR MANTIS
Underlined links to Chinese books Underlined links to English books Other links
Basics
Beng Bu Quan Burst or Smash Step Boxing VCD
Gong Li Quan Flowing Power Boxing
Shi Sz Lu Tan Tui 14 Road Spring Leg
Level One
Duo Gang Quan Evasive Boxing VCD
Hei Hu Jiao Cha Quan Black Tiger Intercepting Boxing
Shi Ba Sou Quan 18 Elders Form
Cha Chui Quan Thrust Punch Boxing
Er Lu Zhai Yao Quan Summary Boxing Road #2
Lei Bian Quan Crack the Whip Boxing VCD
Level Two
Da Fan Che Quan Big Wheel Boxing
Bai Yuan Chu Dong Quan White Gibbon Exits Cave
Fu Hu Gun Yang Gun Conquer Tiger And Sheep Staff
Bai Yuan Tou Tao Quan White Gibbon Steals The Peach Boxing
Ba Gua Dan Dao Eight Diagram Single Broadsword
Mei Hua Luo Quan Plum Blossom Falling Boxing
Mei Hua Shou Quan Plum Blossom Hand Boxing
Tao Hua Shan Dui Da Quan Peach Blossom Free Hand Partner Boxing
Tang Lang Bu Xuang Quan Mantis Stepping Whirling Boxing
Tang Lang Tou Tao Quan Mantis Steals the Peach Boxing
Rou Yun Zhang Quan Soft, Agile Palm Boxing
Jie Quan Segmented Boxing
Si Four Direction Rushing Boxing
Li Pi Quan Splitting Arm Boxing
Da Jia Shi Big Frame Form
Xiao Jia Shi Small Frame Form
Level Three
Yi Lu Mei Hua Tui Plum Blossom Leg Road #1
Er Lu Mei Hua Tui Plum Blossom Leg Road #2
Zhi Wu Jiang 5 Meridian Sword
Shuang Dao Dui Qiang Double Broadsword against Spear
Wu Lang Ba Gua Gwun 5th son Eight Diagram Staff
Xuan Fen Dan Gou Whirlwind Single Hook
Qing Ping Jian Green Duckweed Sword VCD
Level Four
Tang Lang Chui Praying Mantis Punch
Yi Lu Zhai Yao Quan Routine 1 of Summary Boxing
Dan Cha Hua Quan Single Thrust Flowers Boxing
Si Lu Beng Da Quan 10 Road Thrust Strike Boxing
Wu Hu Qiang Five Tigers Spear
Da Hu Tang Quan Big Tigers And Wild Geese Boxing
Level Five
Shuang Cha Hua Quan Double Thrust Flowers Boxing
Rou Yun Zhoug Quan Soft and Agile Claw Boxing
Liu He Shuang Do Six Harmony Double Broadsword
Tang Lang Zhu Tong Quan Mantis Comes Out Of The Cave
Wen Wu Ba Xian Jian Civil & Military Eight Fairy Sword
San Lu Zhai Yao Quan Routine 3 of Summary Boxing
Da Za Dui Da Big Thrust Partner Fighting
Xiao Hu Yan Small Tiger and Swallow Boxing
Mei Hua Quan Plum Blossom Fist Boxing
Tou Jie Hu Quan Tou Jie Fighting
Shang Shan Hu Quan Tiger Climbs the Mountain Boxing
Xia Shan Hu Quan Tiger Leaves the Mountain Boxing
Luo Yan Quan Ê Tall Geese Boxing
Ou Quan Gull Boxing
Chuan Yun Zhang Thrust Cloud Palm
Yi Lu Ba Zhoug Routine 1 of Ba Elbow
Er Lu Ba Zhoug Routine 2 of Ba Elbow
Xan Zhi Zhuan Lin Zhang Swallow Rushes The Forest Palm
Hu Wei San Jei Gwun Tiger Tail Three Section Staff Boxing
Mei Hua Zhang Plum Blossom Palm
Yin Yi Lu Bai Yuan Kui Routine 1 of White Gibbon Gazes at the Feast
Yang Yin Er Lu Bai Yuan Kui Routine 2 of White Gibbon Gazes at the Feast
Yan Qing Dan Dao Yan Qing Single Broadsword
Level Six
Suang Bi Sou Double Daggers
Chuan Zhi Dui Da Cluster Free Fighting
Gun Tang Shuang Dao Ground Rolling Double Broadsword
Mei Hua Qiang Plum Blossom Spear
Jiu Jie Liang Huan Bian Nine Section Whip
Qi Xing Xuang Chui Seven Star Double Hammer
Qi Xing Xuang Jian Seven Star Double Sword
Chun Qiu Da Quan Dao Long Hilt Scimitar
Fang Tian Hua Ji Fang Tian Hua Lance
San Jie Guen Dui Qiang 3 Section Staff vs.Spear
Dan Dao Dui Qiang Single Broadsword vs. Spear
Mei Hua San Jie Qun Plum Blossom Three Section Staff
San Yi Qiang Three Loyalty Spear
Shuang Bi Sou Dui Qiang Double Daggers vs. Spear
Kong Shou Dui Qiang Empty Hand vs. Spear
Shan Chai Jian Shan Chai Sword
Kong Shou Dui Dan Dao Empty Hand vs. Single Broadsword
Mei Hua Zhi Wu Dao Plum Blossom Meridian Broadsword
Liu He Gwun Six Harmony Staff
Lian Hua Shuang Jian Chain Of Rings Double Swords
Ba Gua Shuang Gou Eight Diagram Double Hooks
Zhang Ma Dao Horse Cutter Broadsword
Kong Shou Dui Shuang Bi Shou Empty Hand vs. Double Daggers
Shuang Gou Dui Qiang Double Hooks vs. Spear
Qi Men Gun Dui Qiang Qi Men Staff vs. Spear
Dan Dao Dui Dan Dao Single Broadsword vs. Single Broadsword
Kuan Dao Dui Kuan Dao Kwan Do vs. Kwan Do
Jian Dui Jian Sword vs. Sword

Shi Ba Lou Han Qi Gong Eighteen Buddha's Qi Gong

[EarthDragon]

laterthannever... holy crap thank for the "partial" list OMG!

I know 5 forms, I teach 5..... after that whats the point, even in the 5 forms the applications over lapp anything else is just collecting or for show.

If you know more than 10 IMO you dont know them well enough to apply.

[nfboy]

Ok, may be I am being hard on him, but the one time I talked to him he came off as very arrogant, rude and egotistical. Well that is a lot of forms on that list, way to many for one person to every know or have time to practice. Why so many? No you don't need a paper showing that you are a sifu but i would think you need some evidence?

[mooyingmantis]

115 forms!
In Liang Xuexiang's book "Boxing, Staff and Spear Fencing Manual" (Quan Gun Qiang Pu) written in 1842 the author mentions three core mantis forms.
Apparently some peeps in the Seven Star line have been busy in the last 150 plus years. :eek: Though in defense I believe CCKTCPM has also developed a remarkable number of forms.

[Tainan Mantis]

I have heard of Jon Funk and seen him in action. My students have trained at his school too.


Just to let you know I have 10 yrs of hung gar and thai boxing before moving to Vancouver so i know what to look for in a sifu.

But who are you?

[YouKnowWho]

You only need to learn 3 forms in the 7 star mantis system.

beginner - Beng Bu
intermediate - Ren Jeh
advance - Zai Yao

All other forms can only help you to grow "fat" and not grow "tall".

You only need to train

- staff
- single edge knife
- double edges sword
- spear

all other weapon training are nice to have but not necessary.

[EarthDragon]

nfboy

No you don't need a paper showing that you are a sifu but i would think you need some evidence?

evidence WOULD be that piece of paper. Having a certified teaching certificate signed by your shifu is proof that he gave you permission to teach and has confidence that you will teach correctly and have passed the requirements necessary.

the ole' "sheepskin" college diploma is the ony way to differentiate if a person graduated or just enrolled in school.

Would you go to a Dr that didnt earn his degree?

I had a student Erin Markel that learnned from me less than a year, quit and opened her own school in a different town. I never gave her permission nor was she anywhere near the rank, and she had a bunch of students and was making money teaching however it doesnt make her a shifu.

[YouKnowWho]

I had visted a 7 star mantis school in Shangdon, China. The teacher taught a lot of forms but not Beng Bu. I asked the teacher, that teacher said, "you just don't teach Beng Bu to anybody."

It's not how many forms that you have learned. It's whether or not that you have learned the right forms.

[mantis108]

115 forms!
In Liang Xuexiang's book "Boxing, Staff and Spear Fencing Manual" (Quan Gun Qiang Pu) written in 1842 the author mentions three core mantis forms.
Apparently some peeps in the Seven Star line have been busy in the last 150 plus years. :eek: Though in defense I believe CCKTCPM has also developed a remarkable number of forms.

Hand form wise, CCK TCPM didn't have a lot of forms. The only form that is created by GM Chiu is the wooden dummy form and that's about it.

Now, weaponry is a different story. I am by no mean an expert in weaponry and to be honest I don't even bother with weaponry in CCK TCPM at all. I always say to people who come to me that I don't do any weapon and there are plenty of good CCK TCPM teachers such as Alexander Tse, Galen Fok, etc, who are marvelous with weaponry in CCK TCPM. If they are only interested in weaponry then they should seek out these teachers.

As far as I am concern CCK TCPM is great with self defense. It served me well in the past and I have absolute confidence in the system whether or not it has one form, ten forms or no forms at all.

Nowadays, my focus is but 5 forms or so and of course the 64 Shou Fa. Honestly, good Kung Fu isn't about forms. Now excellent Kung Fu truly and really is formless and shapeless. So...

[nfboy]

beginner - Beng Bu
intermediate - Ren Jeh
advance - Zai Yao


LOl..Jon Funk only teaches one of these forms, bung bo. The other two he does not even know! The guy has not been certified by anyone to teach! Al Cheng was never certified to teach by WHF or given permission to teach so how could Mr.Funk ever consider himself a sifu.

As for who am I? Who cares. Really. I am allowed to ask question and challenge people 's belief in who is or is not a sifu.

[mooyingmantis]

beginner - Beng Bu
intermediate - Ren Jeh
advance - Zai Yao


LOl..Jon Funk only teaches one of these forms, bung bo. The other two he does not even know! The guy has not been certified by anyone to teach! Al Cheng was never certified to teach by WHF or given permission to teach so how could Mr.Funk ever consider himself a sifu.

As for who am I? Who cares. Really. I am allowed to ask question and challenge people 's belief in who is or is not a sifu.

You make some big accusations! How do you know which forms he knows? How do you know which forms he teaches? Do you know the whole story about Al Cheng?

Once again, it seems your only purpose here is to attempt to destroy the reputation of Mr. Funk. That makes your inquiries suspect.

[mantis108]

Sometimes no matter how excellent a teacher or a coach is there might just be a character conflict existed between student and teacher. So if Mr. Funk isn't the type of teacher that you are looking for, well I would suggest that you leave him be and continue to search for your ideal teacher.

[Syn7]

You make some big accusations! How do you know which forms he knows? How do you know which forms he teaches? Do you know the whole story about Al Cheng?

Once again, it seems your only purpose here is to attempt to destroy the reputation of Mr. Funk. That makes your inquiries suspect.

whats the story with al cheng???

ive seen jon funk at demos and festivals with his school... everyone ive heard talk about him in person had good things to say... other sifus around here seem to respect him...

i enjoyed watching his kids do their thing...

[Luk Hop]

All square and not much of anything else.

[nfboy]

You make some big accusations! How do you know which forms he knows? How do you know which forms he teaches? Do you know the whole story about Al Cheng?

Once again, it seems your only purpose here is to attempt to destroy the reputation of Mr. Funk. That makes your inquiries suspect.

I know what forms he teaches cause I asked him. The only forms he teaches are the one's listed on his webpage. I asked about the ones he does not teach and he said you don't need to know them, so in other word's he could not be bothered learning them! I am not a student there, I was only asking questions! Come on his rep is not all that great! When I searched him on the web and other forums I found more negative stuff than positive and also from talking to locals since I moved here few have positive things to say about him.

All I know about AL Cheng is what I read on this forum, and that is he was not a graduate of WHF.

[Luk Hop]

...All I know about AL Cheng is what I read on this forum,.....

Holy heart failure, Batman!

What ever you do, don't click on any links to blogs, web-sites, etc.... chances are it will only get worse.

[nfboy]

So according to you guys all I need to do is learn 3 or 4 mantis open hand forms and maybe one or two weapon forms and I am a Sifu!! Really !! That's it?? Wow I should of took up mantis yr's ago, I would be a great great grandmaster by now. This would never happen in hung gar, wing chun, bak mei or karate you are not a teacher until you know all the forms/katas and you graduate in front of your sifu or sensai and are given the certificate to prove it.
So answer the question please!! Why so many 7* forms? What are the original forms? If you don't need to know them all why did some one create them? What one's do you decide to learn? Aren't they all important? So what makes a person a mantis sifu?

[goju]

so the sign of a good teacher if how many forms he knows and can teach? :eek:

golly all along i thought martial arts were about fighting:rolleyes::p

[Paul T England]

Jon funk is a highly respected mantis guy. Like his way or not he has real kung fu training and teaches core mantis forms.

Some teachers reduce the number of forms to suit and weapons get dropped by some teachers as most students will not have the time to develop real skill with more than one or two weapons.

btw. 5th son staff is the core staff form of 7 * mantis and has great technique in it. Some lines also don't have some weapons such as 2 handed sword.

The bottom line is if you don't like the teachers, style, method of teaching then don't waste anyones time and find something else.

As a teacher, if the student does not have faith in my mehtods then they may as well leave as longterm they will not develop.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[Paul T England]

oh a couple more points...

What makes a person a sifu = having students

what makes a good sifu = skill, experience, knowledge

what makes you a sifu in "who flung do" style mantis = permission from your sifu or you out lived thes rest of your family. (or started your own :) )

You can only ask questions based a a certain family style. Each Mantis family have different methods and forms (but core ideas and forms). Nobody is owner of all families.... (funny thats the same with Hung Gar as well.

Certificates and sashes, photos and websites do not mean equal skill.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[LaterthanNever]

Nfboy,

"Well that is a lot of forms on that list, way to many for one person to every know or have time to practice. Why so many? No you don't need a paper showing that you are a sifu but i would think you need some evidence?"

Well jeez..that was a pretty big about face!(and yet a few posts later..you villify the man yet AGAIN!!). You'll never be a sifu if you vacillate so often..disrupts the chi. First you say he's a fraud, then you say "oh well..that's alot of forms"(indicating that your previous standard was unfair.

I want to relay a story and in doing so, my stance on the "more is not better" idea.

I was talking to a sifu once of a well know southern shaolin style. We were talking about forms. I mentioned a form which is traditionally 3rd on the list of what is known as the "4 pillars".

He grew impatient and raised his voice and said "You only need ONE!! You can beat 90 % of the guys in the street if you knew only F- H--(the name of the form".

Great. And you know what? It's probably true.

BUT....

the flipside to that coin is..then you only know ONE form!! What happens if and when you fight someone in real life(or even sparring for that matter) who is either a sifu(in that style or another style) or even a highly trained practitioner?

Ah..well then the dynamic changes a bit now doesn't it?

While it's true that there are those who collect forms and brag "oh yeah..well I know over 70 forms" and lets just say perhaps this guy learned them but can perform them rather slovenly.

The prevailing herd mentality in kung fu is that lots of forms= poor performance in each.

Well..while I don't deny that there are kung fu people who fit that criteria, its analagous to saying "if you get really good at addition, forget about getting good at subtraction, multiplication and division too--you are just a "math collector" "..

Needless to say I think that is irrational. There are plenty of sifus who know more than one form(or even more than 10) and know them WELL..


Pointing to the lack of people who know more than a few forms well as it being somehow an impossible hill to climb isn't because it's impossible, it's because there aren't as many people dedicated to being able to rise to the standard.

[taichi4eva]

Hi mantis108

"Nowadays, my focus is but 5 forms or so and of course the 64 Shou Fa. Honestly, good Kung Fu isn't about forms."

Would you mind listing those 5 forms?

[mooyingmantis]

This would never happen in hung gar, wing chun, bak mei or karate you are not a teacher until you know all the forms/katas and you graduate in front of your sifu or sensai and are given the certificate to prove it.

So answer the question please!! Why so many 7* forms? What are the original forms? If you don't need to know them all why did some one create them? What one's do you decide to learn? Aren't they all important? So what makes a person a mantis sifu?

Now you ask some legitimate questions. Others have provided great answers. I'll try to provide a few.

This would never happen in hung gar...
That is incorrect. I have a friend who is authorized to teach Hung Gar by his sifu and his sigung. The sigung is a very well known master of Hung Gar. Everyone would recognize the name if I mentioned it, but I will keep this all anonymous since I didn't get my friend's permission to talk about this.
My friend runs his own school (about 80-100 students), he is allowed to use the title "Sifu". Yet he has never learned the Ten Forms Fist or Iron Wire.
So, it is not only PM that uses this policy.

Why so many 7* forms?
Because many have added their own take on the art. Luo Guang Yu added several forms as he was influenced by other instructors during his time working with the Jing Wu Association. Wong Hon Fan changed some of the forms he was taught. Perhaps some forms were invented as teaching transitions from one set to another. One lineage of 7* believes that forms were adopted in from Lost Track Boxing.
Most things change and grow with time, 7* PM is no different.

What are the original forms?
As I noted earlier in a post, the earliest historically accepted text that names the mantis core forms lists: beng bu, luanjie and fenshen bazhou. Though as Mantis 108 mentioned there were the 64 shou fa as well.

If you don't need to know them all why did some one create them?
Perhaps for no other reason than artistic expression. Or it could be that they thought they could improve on what they had learned. So, some agreed they were good additions and kept them, others perhaps felt they were unnecessary and discarded them.

What one's do you decide to learn? Aren't they all important?
You learn the ones your Sifu tells you to learn based on what he thinks is important for YOU. Some may be taught Da Fanche or Xiao Fanche, great forms for those who are tall and have long arms. Certain Sifu emphasize different aspects of the art, so they teach the forms that meet that need.
My instructor told me along time ago that due to the repetitiousness of the 7* forms it is not really necessary for the average student to learn them all. Single Thrust Flower, considered a higher level set by some, has little over Beng Bu, considered by some to be a beginning level set.
In 7* the same combinations and theories are repeated over and over through many, many sets.

[CFT]

Never mind the politics. The issue of the number of forms is an interesting one. Besides the weapons forms, which empty hand forms encapsulate the essence of 7* Praying Mantis? You wouldn't think that more than half a dozen is necessary.

One should never look down on "beginner sets". There is a good reason they are the foundation practices.

[nfboy]

Thank you for all that info. am sorry if I came off as rude and hard on Sifu Funk, but when I asked him this stuff he was easily offended and came across angry with me that I asked /e-mailed him questions.

[EarthDragon]

nfboy,
quite honeslty you dont deserve to be taught, and I hope Jon doesnt enroll you.

Not to sound to harsh but all you have done on this board was to join (9 posts) with your own negative opinion about him, which was already set in your head, then asked our opinion and when it wasnt what you wanted to hear and you didnt want to listen to the reason he is a good teacher, you spouted off again attacking his teaching, credibility and knowledge and acted very condesending.

I dont know what you were taught for 10 years by your old hung gar shifu but it sure wasnt respect!

I am sure Jon doesnt need a student with this attitude like yours this will not make or break his school if dont join, so do yourself and us a favor and find someome to learn from that you can respect from the git go.

If you came into my school only once, asked a couple questions didnt touch hands with me or see me move or fight then came onto a public forum and tried to
discredit me and base an opinion on your lack of knowledge, I would not teach you either, there are too many willing student to give my time to.

[mooyingmantis]

Earthdragon,
Don't be such a pansie! Tell us how you REALLY feel. :D
Yeah, I agree with you. I have had peeps that already had all the answers (:rolleyes:) approach me about lessons. I wonder if when I blew them off they went on a chat forum and filleted me?

Though at least his questions brought up an interesting discussion on forms.

[nfboy]

Ok what ever. I have no interest in training with him. He did not impress me with his skill or his self righteous attitude. As for you two who cares ..mooyingmantis I have seen your clips on youtube you need to drop 80 pounds ..just what kung fu needs another fat , middle aged , white Chinese wannabe. Earth dragon, jesus I bet your white also. As for my hung gar, at lease my teacher taught class and did not sit on his ass like jon the ******* funk and get *****y when I asked questions. Thing is I know the difference between **** and good kung fu and have trained with some of the best hung gar and thai boxers around.
Jon Funk is **** as I am sure you two clowns are

[mooyingmantis]

LOL! And there you have it folks, another troll revealed for who they are. I hope he turned off the light and closed the door as he left.

Why do our moderators allow guys like this to try and ruin an instructors reputation? I would have deleted the thread after his first lame post. Does this forum have a moderator?

BTW, I am past middle-aged and very proud of my Native American heritage. No Chinese wannabe here. ;) As for the 80 pounds, I am sorry but I will not part with my left testicle just to lighten up 80 pounds.

My feelings are always so hurt when anonymous people discredit me. BOOHOO! I wonder if we will ever see his anonymous skills on YouTube?

[nfboy]

So you two clowns can give me **** but if I give it back I am a troll. Screw you both. Next time you are in Van. look me up and show me your fat ass mantis moves tonto.

[EarthDragon]

nfboy
sorry kid truth hurts to hear sometimes, but in any event have a wonderful day, and dont worry too much about what people say, kung fu isnt for everybody, try boxing take care:D

[nfboy]

Funny you two guys call your selfs sifu's and you have acted and treated me like crap for asking questions. I guest the standards are real low for what makes a sifu in mantis. At lease with boxing I know I will lean stuff and arrogant self righteous people like your selfs and JFunk will get weeded out pretty fast. Seen it a hundred times so called sifu's getting there ass handed to them by novice boxers.

[nfboy]

O ya I have also received several p.m's telling me that you do need to know all the forms to be taken serious as a sifu and that Mr.Funk has a terrible rep.

[EarthDragon]

nfboy
alow me to answer your question with YOUR own posts...... and let the board see who is being disrespeftul and causing problems, OK but this is gonna hurt a littel bit.
BTW you have 10 posts on these boards most of us have been here for YEARS and have seen your kind before, and most of us know Jon Funk or at least know of him so how does it look for you to talk smack about him to his peers when you are but a meer student with only 10 years who ironically enough is looking for a teacher :o

your quotes
but the more I read about 7*mantis and about him I kinda think he is a fraud! His skill level in stick hands and push hands seems very average at best and his lack of forms I find very questionable.

but how can you call yourself a sifu if you don't know all the forms to the system.

but the one time I talked to him he came off as very arrogant, rude and egotistical.

LOl..Jon Funk only teaches one of these forms, bung bo. The other two he does not even know! The guy has not been certified by anyone to teach! Al Cheng was never certified to teach by WHF or given permission to teach so how could Mr.Funk ever consider himself a sifu.

so in other word's he could not be bothered learning them! I am not a student there, I was only asking questions! Come on his rep is not all that great! When I searched him on the web and other forums I found more negative stuff than positive and also from talking to locals since I moved here few have positive things to say about him.

All I know about AL Cheng is what I read on this forum, and that is he was not a graduate of WHF.
so in other word's he could not be bothered learning them! I am not a student there, I was only asking questions! Come on his rep is not all that great! When I searched him on the web and other forums I found more negative stuff than positive and also from talking to locals since I moved here few have positive things to say about him.

All I know about AL Cheng is what I read on this forum, and that is he was not a graduate of WHF.

Ok what ever. I have no interest in training with him. He did not impress me with his skill or his self righteous attitude. As for you two who cares ..mooyingmantis I have seen your clips on youtube you need to drop 80 pounds ..just what kung fu needs another fat , middle aged , white Chinese wannabe. Earth dragon, jesus I bet your white also. As for my hung gar, at lease my teacher taught class and did not sit on his ass like jon the ******* funk and get *****y when I asked questions. Thing is I know the difference between **** and good kung fu and have trained with some of the best hung gar and thai boxers around.
Jon Funk is **** as I am sure you two clowns are

[nfboy]

Not looking for a teacher !! just here in Vancouver for the next year for school and was looking for a club to train with and maybe learn some thing new while I am here. I really do hope they kick me off this board, it has been quite the eye opener as to the rudeness of mantis clans and yes I think sifu's should be called out and have to prove there legitimacy.

[EarthDragon]

Not looking for a teacher !! just here in Vancouver for the next year for school and was looking for a club to train with and maybe learn some thing new while I am here.
:eek:

Then can I ask what difference it makes how many sets he knows or as you said (lack of knowledge?) He knows more than a year full so whatever you would be learning would be better than what you know now wouldnt it be?

however If you are looking for a "workout" place then join a gym that offeres self defense classes, or try a MMA school and get some workouts in, anything you learn in a year you wouldnt be profficiant at so why seek out a complete system if you are only going to give it less than 12 months. even if you go 3x a week thats like 150 classes:o



it has been quite the eye opener as to the rudeness of mantis clans .

who was rude to you? you asked some good questions and alot of people took time out of thier busy day to answer them, however when thier answers wernt what you wanted to hear you attcked the guy and fellow board memebers and attempted to disredit his knowledge and challenge people to fight you. Are you serious right now? Can you go back and re read your posts to us...


and yes I think sifu's should be called out and have to prove there legitimacy

To who? YOU? for what reason does anyone have anything to prove to you? especially after you spoke ill willed towards him behinds his back without his knowledge.... your a piece of work, and as I said I would hope he wouldnt except you as his student. I know I wouldnt.

[mooyingmantis]

So you two clowns can give me **** but if I give it back I am a troll. Screw you both. Next time you are in Van. look me up and show me your fat ass mantis moves tonto.

Sounds like fun Kimosabi!

[nfboy]

The answer is simple..if you cant kick my ass why would I pay you to teach me. I have more than enough hung gar to work on. I just wanted to try something new while I was in town for school. So I visited his club, talked to him , watched a class, talked to his students and once again he was rude..thats it plain and simple. I did not show up at his school and challenge him , i just asked questions. When I asked about certain forms I was told they were not important. So I figured why would I train with some one who does not know the complete system of the style they teach, I would never train with a boxer who only new how to throw a jab!!

[mooyingmantis]

Do you really think Muhammed Ali's trainer could kick Ali's a s s? A good teacher and a good fighter may be two different things.

Apparently you had a bad experience with Mr. Funk. I have only met him once at a tournament he was helping with. So I really have no opinion of him pro or con.

The questions you asked were all valid questions. But when you brought up the name of a man who is trying to just run a successful business, you broke a simple rule of polite behavior. Don't attack specific individuals on an internet forum.

Had you asked your questions and left out the instructor's name, no one would have cared and it would have shown class on your part. Many of us here who give our real names have suffered ridicule at one time or another on the Internet. So, we will be protective of others we see being abused in the same way.

Ask as many questions as you desire. Just please don't veil attacks on others under the guise of desiring knowledge. It simply isn't polite!

Now Tonto/Miss Manners will ride off into the sunset. :D

[nfboy]

Thank you. I apologized and was attacked for apologizing, I asked questions and was attacked for asking questions, I gave people **** and was attacked for that. Is mental illness common in mantis people..just kidding!!

[EarthDragon]

nfboy

I asked questions and was attacked for asking questions, I gave people **** and was attacked for that. Is mental illness common in mantis people..just kidding!!

no harm no foul,
but how would you act if someone verbally attacked one of your family members? You see mantis like all other styles of kung fu are families and stick up for one another and Jon funk is a brother, but you honestly cant expect to be the "new guy" come out of nowhere, make empty challenges attack a well known and well respected teacher and nto catch any flack from it.

But again its all good, I would suggest that if you really want to test his skills ask to cross hands with one of his upper students and if they in your words "kick your ass" then perhaps it doesnt matter how many forms he knows...... what he teaches works.

I currently teach 5 black belts from other schools and have taught many in the past and the first thing I do is let them attack me whatever they choose.
When I show them thier weaknesses, by either smacking thier face , locking, throwing or putting them on the floor then its time for thier teaching to begin, if they beat me then I guess I would ask them to teach me.
But not one of them judged me on how many forms I knew... PS I only know 5 but what does that prove?

[mantis108]

Hi mantis108

"Nowadays, my focus is but 5 forms or so and of course the 64 Shou Fa. Honestly, good Kung Fu isn't about forms."

Would you mind listing those 5 forms?

Hi taichi4eva,

The 5 forms for my own practice are:

Qi Shou
Xiao Fanche/Liuhe Zhang
Lanjie
Bazhou (shang xia as one form)
Dan Zhai Meihua

If someone ask me to show him/her the more significant forms/material of CCK TCPM then those are:

Mo Yun Zhang (Taiji palm)
Lanjie
Bazhou
Shaolin Fo Zhuang (wooden dummy)
64 Shou Fa

BTW, I regard the Lanjie and Bazhou as one long unbroken form.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Syn7]

Ok what ever. I have no interest in training with him. He did not impress me with his skill or his self righteous attitude. As for you two who cares ..mooyingmantis I have seen your clips on youtube you need to drop 80 pounds ..just what kung fu needs another fat , middle aged , white Chinese wannabe. Earth dragon, jesus I bet your white also. As for my hung gar, at lease my teacher taught class and did not sit on his ass like jon the ******* funk and get *****y when I asked questions. Thing is I know the difference between **** and good kung fu and have trained with some of the best hung gar and thai boxers around.
Jon Funk is **** as I am sure you two clowns are

so were you biased against liking jon funk before you heard him out because of the fact that he's white??? come clean man, be honest?!?!?!?

[Syn7]

The answer is simple..if you cant kick my ass why would I pay you to teach me. I have more than enough hung gar to work on. I just wanted to try something new while I was in town for school. So I visited his club, talked to him , watched a class, talked to his students and once again he was rude..thats it plain and simple. I did not show up at his school and challenge him , i just asked questions. When I asked about certain forms I was told they were not important. So I figured why would I train with some one who does not know the complete system of the style they teach, I would never train with a boxer who only new how to throw a jab!!

maybe he just thought you were an arrogant guy and treated you as such... maybe after so many years of teaching he's learned how to read people a little bit, maybe weed out the bad seeds here and there, huh... i dont know jon funk, and his rep means nothing to me, but you were pretty disrespectful from the start...

if a group of local sifu get together to challenge the legitimacy of jon funk thats something he would have to adress... but surely you dont expect anyone to stop everything and prove themselves to the satisfaction of some random non-entity hater for no reason other than to apease some bullsh*t display of hubris... a negative anonymous non-entity at that...

[nfboy]

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5789&page=2

This is what I found when I initially started looking into Jon Funk. Seems people on this board use to not think much of him. So I went to one of his classes to see for my self. I was quite, polite and humble. I am by no means a beginner in martial arts so i know to be polite at others peoples schools. His students were good, the forms were nice, the sparring was a mix of point and kickboxing, or that is what it looked like. When I asked questions Jon seemed to get annoyed with me thats it, I was not rude to him, I did not challenge his status as a sifu!! So after that encounter I thought I should ask more people on a forum and now I really don't care to train with him at all. As for him being white who cares, but ya got to admit a lot of non -Chinese develop a flaky, new age, Confucius, kung fu master attitude some times.

[Syn7]

surely you had decided against going to his school before your first post tho, correct?

[goju]

so were you biased against liking jon funk before you heard him out because of the fact that he's white??? come clean man, be honest?!?!?!?

hes white?:eek: But his name gots the funk in it:D

[yu shan]

good one goju.

[nfboy]

If I had decided against him I would of not took the time to visit him.

[Luk Hop]

What is funny is the number of Mantis "Sifus" out there that move like he does. Ha ha ha...... They are easy to spot even though they claim a different lineage.

[nfboy]

please explain??

[SanHeChuan]

please explain??

They "learned" from Video tapes produced by Jon Funk ;)

[nfboy]

Well he moves like all the 7* I have seen out of Hong Kong, now mainland 7* they move different!! Fast, more like a mantis I think.

[mickey]

Greetings,

I do not know how many guys here remember back to the late '80's and early 90's During that time Jon Funk was respected, his sun was on the ascent. It was only after he started writing articles that warned people about the "fake Shaolin monks " coming to America and the "fake" chi king masters making their rounds in America did he suddenly come under close scrutiny. His lineage and legitimacy was called into question: if Al Cheng did not achieve the right to teach, then how could he suddenly call himself a Sifu (or, HOW DARE HE talk about us when.....). Simply written, Jon Funk was given a pair of black eyes for endangering "certain" economic interests. And I do not think he has healed from it. Yet, I see people jumping on the bandwagon to stomp him without knowing the true origin of their own assaults.

nfboy, you do not seem like a bad guy. You may want to try info gathering this way:

Hi, I am from Vancouver. Who is the baddest mantis mothertrucker out here?

Only a suggestion.

Peace

mickey

[scottdurand]

I remember he often had articles in IKF magazine seems like around 84 and on. He was one of the main ones writing Mantis articles back then.

[YouKnowWho]

When I asked questions Jon seemed to get annoyed with me thats it, I was not rude to him,
I had met him in person once when Brendan Lai taught his class in the park. He seems to be a friendly guy.

I once asked an 80 years old man, "What's the purpose to move your hand like that?" The old man said, "just to perform." He won't speak to me after that.

It dosen't take much to upset a CMA guy.

[-N-]

I had met him in person once when Brendan Lai taught his class in the park. He seems to be a friendly guy.

You were there that day?!

I must have almost met you back then.

[mooyingmantis]

GM Lai seemed like such a gentleman. He came up and complimented me on my performance after I demonstrated in a master's demo at one of GM Yang Shu Ton's tournaments years ago. He made my day!
You were so lucky to train with him.
The only other time I had met him was back in the 90s when he was traveling with/promoting (?) a Wushu group that visited Akron, Ohio.

[YouKnowWho]

You were there that day?!

I must have almost met you back then.
Brendan taught a student a combo - 8 moves with 3 forward hops that day. I liked it very much and I stole that combao by watching. That combo looks like this:

- right hand on the wrist.
- left hand on the elbow.
- right palm hit the right side of opponent's head (hop in).
- left hand re-block opponent's left hand,
- right palm hit the left side of opponent's face (hop in).
- right hook pull back opponent's right wrist.
- left hook take over.
- right back hook hits straight on opponent's face (hop in).

May be you were that guy who did that combo that day. By the way Brendan Lai was the vice-president of the "International Shuai Chiao Association" at that time. He had sponsed a large Shuai Chiao demonstration in San Francisco in 1982.

[Syn7]

They "learned" from Video tapes produced by Jon Funk ;)

i'll never understand the whole video tape thing... i think even making one is ignorant, unless its an aid for you students... but to sell it outside the school??? wtf... i just dont ge it... its a pure cash grab, nothing more... to claim you know something because u bought the tape is rediculous... to teach it afterwards is immoral and criminal... and even making a tape facilitates all that... being a video student is just stupid... maybe a touch less so with live webcam classes, but still stupid none the less...

making a video is a blackmark on your character, imo...

[Syn7]

I had met him in person once when Brendan Lai taught his class in the park. He seems to be a friendly guy.

I once asked an 80 years old man, "What's the purpose to move your hand like that?" The old man said, "just to perform." He won't speak to me after that.

It dosen't take much to upset a CMA guy.

yeah thats a problem in tcma... egos are rediculous... why should i believe anything just because some guy said so??? earning respect goes both ways... you take a chance with a teacher or student and you go from there...

[mooyingmantis]

i'll never understand the whole video tape thing... i think even making one is ignorant, unless its an aid for you students... but to sell it outside the school??? wtf... i just dont ge it... its a pure cash grab, nothing more... to claim you know something because u bought the tape is rediculous... to teach it afterwards is immoral and criminal... and even making a tape facilitates all that... being a video student is just stupid... maybe a touch less so with live webcam classes, but still stupid none the less...

making a video is a blackmark on your character, imo...

I disagree totally.

I make videotapes available for my students all the time. Every form, every combination, every drill is videotaped to serve as a reminder of what they learned in class or in one of my seminars. I post them on YouTube so my students in Indiana can experience the same lessons that my students in Ohio enjoy. Though I don't make everything available for the public.

Explanations are done in such detail that if a half way decent martial artist couldn't pick up the tape or watch the video and learn the form or technique with a partner, then I failed in teaching it properly.

I also encourage students to videotape themselves working out so they can better analyze their own movements for errors. One of the first things I teach my students is to PROPERLY OBSERVE what is going on in class.

I think the idea that one cannot learn from a tape is kind of outdated. Though it does take very good observational skills and one must know WHAT to look for.

Heck, some peeps are getting Master's Degrees online, are we martial artists that big of morons that we can't learn through observation? I don't think the average martial artist of adult age is.

I think videotaping in the kwoon/guan is a important today as practicing in front of a mirror was in the past.

So, I don't criticize others for making tapes to sell. At least they are making a permanent documentation of things that may someday be lost otherwise. Too many styles have been lost already. Imagine if we had tapes to refer back to made by Lam Sai Wing or Fan Xu Dong!

[Syn7]

I disagree totally.

I make videotapes available for my students all the time. Every form, every combination, every drill is videotaped to serve as a reminder of what they learned in class or in one of my seminars. I post them on YouTube so my students in Indiana can experience the same lessons that my students in Ohio enjoy. Though I don't make everything available for the public.


Heck, some peeps are getting Master's Degrees online, are we martial artists that big of morons that we can't learn through observation? I don't think the average martial artist of adult age is.

thats okay if its for students u teach in person...


yeah the online masters argument doesnt fly with me... its not the same thing when physical techniques are concerned... i wouldnt want to get surgery from some guy that did his whole medschool online and passing video back and forh...

videos should be nothing more than aids for existing students and for personal use for mapping progress and whatnot... or purely demonstrational... IMO... i stand by that...

[-N-]

Brendan taught a student a combo - 8 moves with 3 forward hops that day. I liked it very much and I stole that combao by watching.

Nice combo.


That combo looks like this:

- right hand on the wrist.
- left hand on the elbow.
- right palm hit the right side of opponent's head (hop in).

Grinding palm using ou lou tsai method.


- left hand re-block opponent's left hand,
- right palm hit the left side of opponent's face (hop in).


Leaking palm like in Plum Flower forms with left side / right side palm attacks. He did not teach us those forms until many years later.


- right hook pull back opponent's right wrist.
- left hook take over.
- right back hook hits straight on opponent's face (hop in).

Ou lou tsai using reverse mantis claw down the center(instead of more common outside line) after the left/right setup.

Can follow up with easy takedown using head and wrist control.


May be you were that guy who did that combo that day. By the way Brendan Lai was the vice-president of the "International Shuai Chiao Association" at that time. He had sponsed a large Shuai Chiao demonstration in San Francisco in 1982.

Chinese guy, 5' 10", medium/heavy, needed lots of practice was me.

I heard the story from my Sihing of our teacher meeting your teacher. He had the highest respect for your teacher.

[Mi Hou Tao]

Brendan taught a student a combo - 8 moves with 3 forward hops that day. I liked it very much and I stole that combao by watching. That combo looks like this:

- right hand on the wrist.
- left hand on the elbow.
- right palm hit the right side of opponent's head (hop in).
- left hand re-block opponent's left hand,
- right palm hit the left side of opponent's face (hop in).
- right hook pull back opponent's right wrist.
- left hook take over.
- right back hook hits straight on opponent's face (hop in).



Sounds like "San Lu Mei Hua Zhang" 2 man drill

[BeiTangLang]

More than likely didn't like that I removed the very rude post & direspectful post he originaly posted & removed the others on his own.
As always, I will allow discussions of anything mantis, including unfavorable opinions, if they are at least respectful and not libelous.

Best wishes to all,
~BTL

[SoCo KungFu]

thats okay if its for students u teach in person...


yeah the online masters argument doesnt fly with me... its not the same thing when physical techniques are concerned... i wouldnt want to get surgery from some guy that did his whole medschool online and passing video back and forh...

videos should be nothing more than aids for existing students and for personal use for mapping progress and whatnot... or purely demonstrational... IMO... i stand by that...

People learn CPR from videos everyday. There's a difference between surgery which is much more than just a physical technique, its all the detailed didactics that are behind it; anatomy and so on. That's what is difficult. But anyone who can eat their own food should know how to use a knife.

There is nothing at all complicated about martial arts in terms of detail. Its all about physical programming through repetition. The mental stuff is simple, it just takes a good sparring partner and time doing the physical stuff. Its the fact that martial arts are simple physical movements which require little preparation (we all move in our bodies everyday) that makes it so easy to pick up from a tape.

Martial arts are not difficult. They aren't complicated. Its no more difficult to learn kung fu from a vid than it is to learn to play football or hockey or soccer or CPR or how to build a table or how to replace an alternator.

And the simple fact that when he was alive Evan Tanner could kick all our asses just proves that you can learn martial arts from a video....

[KC Elbows]

People learn CPR from videos everyday. There's a difference between surgery which is much more than just a physical technique, its all the detailed didactics that are behind it; anatomy and so on. That's what is difficult. But anyone who can eat their own food should know how to use a knife.

There is nothing at all complicated about martial arts in terms of detail. Its all about physical programming through repetition. The mental stuff is simple, it just takes a good sparring partner and time doing the physical stuff. Its the fact that martial arts are simple physical movements which require little preparation (we all move in our bodies everyday) that makes it so easy to pick up from a tape.

Martial arts are not difficult. They aren't complicated. Its no more difficult to learn kung fu from a vid than it is to learn to play football or hockey or soccer or CPR or how to build a table or how to replace an alternator.

And the simple fact that when he was alive Evan Tanner could kick all our asses just proves that you can learn martial arts from a video....

No, fighting is more complex than physics, or else Einstein would have had a chain of particle physics dojos and raked it in on fusion fees.

I hope I have adequately put down your heresy!

[SoCo KungFu]

No, fighting is more complex than physics, or else Einstein would have had a chain of particle physics dojos and raked it in on fusion fees.

I hope I have adequately put down your heresy!

What's the mathematical equation for a chain punch?

[EarthDragon]

What's the mathematical equation for a chain punch?
1+1+1+1= lots of rapid punches to the face?

[notanexit]

The guy has not been certified by anyone to teach! Al Cheng was never certified to teach by WHF or given permission to teach so how could Mr.Funk ever consider himself a sifu.

As for who am I? Who cares. Really. I am allowed to ask question and challenge people 's belief in who is or is not a sifu.
I know how you feel man.I went through the same thing myself.At least you were not taken on a 10 year ride like me and many others were.Its good that you ask questions.This is one of many reasons why MMA has taken over.People got tired of the "magical" sifu who demonstrates cool moves on a compliant student.I asked a similar on the board a while back and I got attacked like you did.Just find someone that is honest and reputable to train with no matter the style.